The Fireflies and Marlene - A Deconstruction of Villainy

[@billdean96]

honestly my main gripe with the “doctor” is how little time is spent studying Ellie, i mean come on at least spend more than a few hours before you decide to kill the ONLY immune person you have

[@Awsm75]

I think that’s the point, kind of. The fireflies never actually had a chance at success. The dude was a vet, not a brain surgeon. They rushed the whole process and ruined their own plans

[@Clapperofcheeks5000]

I know

[@IrishWarrior00]

@@Awsm75 Them not having a chance ruins the whole dilemma though and would be poor writing. They equally could have done the studies when she was with the fireflies for an unknown length of time before the TLOU1 starts.

[@Morten_Storvik]

@@Awsm75 The director confirmed that it would have worked if Joel did not stop them.

[@insertedgynamehere___969]

@@Morten_Storvik then it's definitely a case of poor writing.

[@purplefreak3]

"the writers did too good of job of making the fireflies look like losers and failures" True statement

[@thecod2345]

Honestly, when you take out the sequel, how they’re such losers makes complete sense. They’re a bunch of idiots grasping at straws in a world run by effectively dictatorships and bands of thieves. They have good intentions but they fundamentally have no idea what they’re even really doing. And even if they did know how to somehow make a cure, they’re definitely not a faction above using it as a power play. They’re no better than anyone else and that’s what makes them so interesting. Just because they’re underdogs and freedom fighters does not make them the de facto solution to the world’s problems.

[@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ]

What do you mean, pal?

[@johnlucas2838]

@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ He's just agreeing with what's being said, dude.

[@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ]

@@johnlucas2838 I didn't ask you.

[@johnlucas2838]

@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ Then you shouldn't have asked.

[@ScaricoOleoso]

I think Tess's belief or at least hope in the Fireflies at the end is just because she was bitten. She was on death's door and needed to believe it was for something. Her pragmatism simply went out the door when she realized she was dead.

[@Xer0neman1a]

Came here to say this. ^^

[@Marizz9]

Thank you, exactly my thoughts

[@gaia7240]

True

[@ENDslayer2001]

I would agree to a certain point, but certain lines like Joel's "that was your crusade not mine" feels like it's a reignited hope born out of desperation. (I feel she, like Tommy, were likely at one point a firefly or related ally who lost faith in the cause. Would also explain why she and Joel knew they were talking to Marlene and not just any joe shmoe who knew where the fireflies were) The bite made her desperate, sure, but it also gave credence to the immunity claims Ellie gave with how bad her infection was compared to Ellie.

[@Andrew-fq7pu]

The game is a masterclass in portraying how desperation breeds delusion, and how that delusion can quickly and easily justify any inhumanity if you surrender to it. That's the key lesson in the story, a perfect illustration of how people would rather believe a comforting lie than a harsh truth.

[@Chinesetakeout382]

A point my mom said when we finished the show is that the disease being fungus based means that killing Ellie would have done nothing. She would have definitely died for nothing. Since the fungus seems to lives in tandem with her, studying her while she’s alive, studying her immune system and hormones would be a million times more effective than killing her.

[@gabriel_loves_briosa]

Great point!

[@SchulzEricT]

YUP! But hey, a fungus that attacks your lungs... of course the reason you're immune would be in your brain, and your brain doesn't function any differently when you're dead vs when you're alive, right?

[@WhatintheAsh]

@@SchulzEricT so, we actually know from the real life cordyceps infection of ants that the fungus doesn’t take control of the brain, so it’s not gonna be in Ellie’s brain either since the fungus won’t take over the brain so it can keep the host alive

[@hyperfreeze2714]

@@WhatintheAsh we know for a fact that it grows on the brain in this game. There’s an X-Ray of a clicker in the university and the mushrooms are quite visibly growing on the brain and out of the face.

[@matthias2368]

It's so wild to me that people can suspend their dissbelieve for a cordiceps fungus that can infect humans and turn them into clickers and bloaters, but the idea that a vaccine can be made for it is too unrealistic for people to accept in a work of fiction

[@grizzylohan9363]

The way Marlene says, “don’t waste this gift Joel” like she knows Joel is capable of running through all of her men

[@mellomoose_]

@mendaixto bad Joel is the high ground, at least in the first game

[@gabejohnson4879]

There was not a living firefly in that damn hospital when I was done... Not near as badass as Pedro made it seem to lol

[@sus_ehrmantraut]

I think she meant: dont do anything stupid dont waste the chance to live, tha chance that she gave to joel when she told that firefly to not shot him

[@archieakira4237]

Yup

[@jonaswest6993]

My one complaint with the show since it wasn't video game enough, like fate was pushing Joel to save his daughter itself or at least that's how he's justifying it in the moment. That's why he found that Assault rifle just sitting there, and what he'd been saving all this shotgun ammo for. Wiping out the firefly's now saves him trouble later especially after he sees how they act as a military force. And how his brother used to be apart of them. They might come back for him

[@MsMaidh]

I think Joel's condescending attitude towards the Fireflies has everything to do with Tommy. The Fireflies' mission and cause that they fight for was enough to convince Tommy to leave Joel, and Joel's been bitter about it ever since. When Tommy ultimately left the Fireflies, too, and they never achieved their goals after probably decades of fighting, it just solidified Joel's attitude towards the Fireflies. It caused a fight between him and his brother, and his brother left him, all for nothing. Joel has a very hard time buying into any of the false hopes that the Fireflies are selling.

[@nickelakon5369]

Imo Joel was simply skeptical, just judging off how he's characterized. It wouldn't have mattered if they suckered in Tommy or not, he would have never trusted the fireflies because he's not someone who can be convinced by good intentions. He even shows this attitude before the apocalypse for what little we see. Perhaps he is bitter, but I don't think it actually plays a part in his decision not to trust the fire flies. To Joel they're just another bandit outfit, but in yellow and saying they're the good guys.

[@16Vagabond]

Their biggest mistake was not allowing Joel and Ellie to say goodbye. Hearing it from HER, that she wanted to make this sacrifice, would have helped Joel be at peace with it.

[@hustheposum]

Agreed. Imo, if the fireflies were trustworthy, explained the procedure to Joel and Ellie, gave Ellie time to think on it and eventually say goodbye, Joel would’ve went for it, even if reluctantly. It’s their aggression that messed everything up.

[@Morten_Storvik]

Joel literally says in the sequel that he would have done it anyway.

[@sev1120]

​@@Morten_Storvikhe said that if he was in that situation, he'd make the same choice again. If circumstances were different, that may not be the case

[@IrishWarrior00]

@@sev1120 This is immediately after Ellie says she would have wanted the surgery. He 100% meant that he would have prevented it if she had said yes at the time

[@nonuvurbeeznus795]

But what if Ellie said no? They couldn't let that happen. They *need* Ellie. Joel has the exact same reasoning when he lies to Ellie about what really happened.

[@unappealingairbender]

Even so, Joel knew that just because a cure was made, it wouldn't fix humanity. You would still have gangs and factions, still have bandits and pirate-crews, you would still have men like David running free in the eternal damnation of their world. The threat of infected would diminish, but we already established that in TLOU, the infected aren't the scariest thing there - it's the humans.

[@stevecavalle]

That was true until Duckman wanted to do his Thing 😢

[@Nigeltheleper]

This is exactly what I’m saying humanity is already gone you can’t fix that

[@unappealingairbender]

@Nigeltheleper I feel like some people forget this sometimes, and it annoyed me because it's one of the most prominent conversations within the story. Not once did an infected party give me the same amount of fear as when I was sneaking around a restaurant as Ellie, running from a cannibalistic pervert who today wouldn't be allowed within 200ft of a school zone. Not once did a Shambler in part 2 unsettle me as much as the Rattlers' slave dens did. Never did I think that Joel should have killed *everyone*, but to say he denied mankind of a cure for humanity is very misguided to me as it defeats the turning points of the game: 1. Sarah dies to a SOLDIER 2. Tess dies to a SOLDIER 3. The ENTIRITY of Pittsburgh 4. Joel nearly dies to HUNTERS 5. Ellie nearly dies to HUNTERS 6. Ellie is hunted by David, a HUMAN These things all impacted the story way more than the infected tunnel near St. Mary's did, or the train station, or the museum. It was Joel's selfishness which started him on his job with Ellie, but his selfLESS love for her, caused by HUMAN EVENTS, which causes the hospital massacre. "This is the price of being empathetic in an apathetic world".

[@ValerieRuiz-d4w]

Bruh ... go outside and look at the beauty that surrounds u for a sec.. u have a chance to start over and fix wat wasn't before ..would u or would u choose to be guilty of the pains that pain u otherwise be pathetic instead ?

[@unappealingairbender]

@user-je1pf3mp2b in the world of TLOU I would 100% make the same call as Joel. Our world is surrounded by natural beauty but also natural chaos. TLOU has natural beauty DISTURBED by chaos. I would've made the same choice as Joel even if I was in full knowledge that my story would end up the way his did. Why give mankind a cure to the fungus when they're so far gone that they don't deserve it? But genuinely, I'm interested in your take on this, I like discussing the ending of this game with people =)

[@antheathetiefling8581]

I always thought that Marlene didn't shoot Joel at the end cause he was carrying Ellie. She didn't want to risk accidentally damaging Ellie, and tried to talk Joel down.

[@MsDavid47]

Yes exactly.

[@Jazz_Jacob]

Even if she didn’t want to risk missing Joel’s big-ass. It wouldn’t explain why she doesn’t force Joel at gunpoint to put Ellie down

[@Sgt-lott10]

@@Jazz_Jacobbecause what was she to do if he refused? Shoot him and risk Ellie hitting the ground and cracking her skull open?

[@Jazz_Jacob]

@@Sgt-lott10 Nah, hold him til reinforcements come for one instance

[@Sgt-lott10]

@@Jazz_Jacob still wouldn't have worked, Marlene was gonna get shot either way

[@kevind3974]

In the end what made them the villain wasn’t their actions, goals or methods but the simple fact that they rushed their final choices and payed the price for it. They wanted solutions now and they were pretty sure they would get them yet forgot to ask for permission from ether of the other party and that chop was death. Something Joel fundamentally disagreed with.

[@MrAllimath]

As other people have mentioned, it wasn't so much that they were hasty, its that they didn't want to leave the choice to a 14 year old, who might not come to the rational conclusion they did. Moreover, i don't think that Marlene would've had the strength to still go through with the operation (which she saw as the only way to save mankind) if Ellie refused to sacrifice herself, which she knew, and saw as another reason for not letting Ellie pick.

[@Hayden_Lummus]

@@MrAllimath Explain what's rational about killing the only current immune person, especially given how much they've botched attempts with other immune people they've found and killed them, only to gain...nothing

[@kevind3974]

@@MrAllimath yet in the end the reason stays the same. by not asking it cost them everything

[@kevind3974]

@@AesirUnlimited ow no i don't think you understand. I'm not talking about Joel. Joel fundamentally disagreed. I'm talking about Elie and Elie would have agreed and then possible talk down Joel. if Joel then still disagrees but Elie stays adamant ether way he would be losing another daughter. as like joel she would have stuck to her guns. if she disagreed nobody would have died and the possibility of her coming back later on or doing other things is still on the table. by not giving a choice they made their stance in stone. a stone that wasnt as hard as joels fundimental disagreement, so he smashed them to dust what killed them in the end was one simple mistake. not asking

[@kevind3974]

@@AesirUnlimited that's completely based on their reaction to her saying no or not right now. if they forced the topic Joel would have killed them and Ellie would have helped him do it. if they backed off nobody would have died and maby down the line they could try something else that she agreed to. they did kinda jump the gun after all going straight to a fatal procedure when there were still many nonfatal things they could have done. this really isn't that hard man. it's just a basic branching question with a couple of possibility's. this is just a thought eperiment as were playing with to meny unkown variables to actual know what would have happened. all because you know THEY NEVER ASKED

[@samwallaceart288]

I always really liked the Fireflies as villains. They're not villains because the game said "these guys are evil" and the kick dogs, they're the villains because they had every opportunity to do the right thing and still fuck up at every single step. You know for a fact Ellie would've been left behind to die like everyone else on Marlene's team. They have a point, they have their sob story, they have their struggles, but they just _ain't shit._ My only problem with them as a story element is that the entire 2nd game completely forgets this and simps hard for them

[@gaia7240]

But at the same time the second part still tells you how bad they were with the suicide man in the flashback at the museum

[@JohnDoe-ligma]

​@@gaia7240whenever someone says "but at the same time" never has a point to make

[@markedone494]

Abbys group of friends is far from a group of perfect, morally positive characters. You cant really say that about any group, those that have survived the apocalypse for the past 20 years, arent the good guys mostly, and everyone had to do horrible things to survive. Also, using fireflies as a collective to describe every single person behind the firefly logo as one and the same completely destroys the fact that the game already taught you to not think of people as that simple. Joel isnt just a bandit or a survivor, we just happened to see his story more so you connected with him, if the saw the entire game from a perspective of a firefly thats just trying to survive and take care of his family you wouldnt think of them as just fireflies. Youre supposed to understand that every group of people is consisted of individuals that may not always agree, and especially in military like organizations, the basic soldier, doesnt know shit about whats actually going on. There are good and bad people everywhere, but you cant also expect the story to point that out literally every time, it just becomes redundant and not a way to tell stories, youre supposed to understand humans are complicated if the story is already about that.

[@samwallaceart288]

@@markedone494 The Fireflies at the hospital showed the kind of people they are in their actions; and it was made clear that hospital was the best of the best of the group gathered together from multiple locations. Abby's friend group, kids of that same best of the best, showed the kind of people they are in their actions. Both times, Joel did what was expected of him and held his end of the social contract. Both times, he was punished for trusting them. He is a shitty person, but in both cases he did everything right before the Fireflies (in that case as represented by that group) discard him without a second thought. Perhaps the Fireflies offcoast of Santa Barbara are better people. Perhaps they aren't. I'm talking about the Fireflies the leader of the Fireflies assembled from across the country. I understand the concept of people being messy and complicated; that's why how they treat each other when one person does everything expected of them and the other treats them like shit in response is the only thing I really have to go off of. If Abby just ended it with a word "You saved my life, but you also doomed the world. It has to be this way." And put one bullet in his skull and left it there, I would totally in understand where she's coming from. But she tortured the guy for 30-odd minutes while everyone stood around and goaded her on. That ain't what Joel did to her dad. She just saw first-hand that the guy's fair when you meet him in his element, and she still put him down like he was a SS captain who tortured her personally and didn't just save her life. There's complexity, and then there's just being a self-righteous hypocritical asshole.

[@Zeronigel332]

God stop acting like the fireflies were some noble group that could fix everything. They were a power hungry militia that wanted the world to constantly depend on them. They killed anyone who could support themselves and anyone they had no more use for. Hell even if they could make the cure they just hold it over people head because they want that power over people.

[@JimAyala-r9g]

I think Joel's problem with the Fireflies is the fact that Tommy took up with them due to idealisms and it caused their fallout and subsequent separation. Joel also knew more about the Fireflies than the game lets on. He introduced Marlene.. "Queen Firefly". He lost Sara then Tommy and in the end, the Fireflies were about to take Ellie too. Joel was bitter. The only glue holding him together and keeping him going was Tess. They became a team for nobody but themselves till Tess shined up to the Fireflies' delusional intentions and got herself killed over it. To Joel, the Rebels were probably worse than FEDRA.

[@alchemysaga3745]

My problem with them trying to say that the Fireflies were "right" and that their plan "would have worked"- per the statements made by the dev *after* the game had been out- is that it... wouldn't have. Not according to the information presented in the game. They were repeatedly portrayed as being completely in over their heads, with no comprehension of what making a cure would actually entail, and- most importantly- never had any intentions *nor* means to distribute any supposed cure. Joel's own brother states that they couldn't or wouldn't do so even if they succeeded.

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

Also, there's no cure for fungi. So you are correct. Neil Cuckman is just clueless.

[@Yo_Cami]

Neil Druckman was not monitored in Tlou 2 so he did a bit of redcon. Bruce Straley made Neil change a lot of the writing for Tlou1. Neil wanted for the first game a scenario closer to Tlou2.

[@pluginleah]

Do you have any specific evidence that they were in over their heads or didn't know what they were doing?

[@addex1236]

Honestly I think Neil Dunckman is just kind of a cock and has no idea what he's talking about in his work

[@Yo_Cami]

@pluginleah there are a lot of things. One was a big turnover of head direction and senior employees after Uncharted 4. This is why Neil was freer because he was finally at the head of the project alone (he wasn't for Tlou 1 Bruce was his superior). In the 2nd time for Tlou 2, he wrote the scenario with Halley Gross a talented TV screenwriter without a link to Tlou2. This is why the game is full of ideas that didn't work in a game setting as making gamers kill characters and telling them this is bad. Starting a new Arc with Abby killing all character's progression and momentum. This kind of idea can work on TV, not in a video game.

[@matthewcline2405]

What I find interesting is how Marlenes behavior tracks so perfectly with many other "noble rebel leader" archetypes. She's in the field, she's cool and collected, she even gives mercy and sympathy to those she feles she owes. But the Last of Us is not a story where that works. She nearly dies for being in the field when FDRA hounds her, her cool attitude means she sends her men to their deaths, and her mercy is used against her twice by Joel. Once when she states that he's getting this gift, and then again at the end when Marlene has to be "the bigger person" and give Joel the chance to do the right thing. I think if Marlene had been the protagonist of a million and one "plucky rebellion" stories out there, that mercy play would have worked; the narrative would reward Marlene for her commitment to the cause and Joel might have had a moment of realization or whatever narrative device was needed for Marlene to be successful. But since she's obstensively the villian of this last arc, it doesn't work. Joel is not moved by her pleas and shoots her in a manner akin to what I always thought was like a gritty western; from the hip, into the gut, and left to bleed out slowly. The Last of Us has a myriad of morals and truths to tell and I think it's fair to say that "there is no miracle cure to the ails we have" and "the true value of surviving the apocalypse is in living, not surviving" are equal truths. The Last of Us recognizes that there can't be some miracle vaccine that will put the world back together and that to live good and right lives, we need to make the choice and wok together everyday to make a life worth living instead of an existence we are surviving.

[@platformxp5820]

Beautifully well put Matthew

[@reaverfang377]

I like that Jackson is a mostly happy modestly growing settlement. I feel like the writers believe the Fireflies are bad because their not letting go and building a future, they are fighting over decaying ruins. I mean the Boston QZ are one of the few bastions we got and their bombing and shooting it in the middle of a Zombie infested city. Does that sound like a group that feels responsible for the average Wastelander?

[@danielshore1457]

I was about to say that like we have seen how the givernment became bad and such at the outbreak, but then in the flash forward we see they are oppresive but they have like created safe zones that people can live in a world where the majority of it is dangerous, and the first interaction with the fireflies is destroying a checkpoint that a bunch of civilians are using

[@stevecavalle]

A shame Duckman wasn't able to saw that

[@reaverfang377]

@@danielshore1457 That said, the QZs desperately require regime change but a civil resistance is a more responsible option. The Government will still be violent but Civil resistance has always been a harder call to make then Violent. Talking is always Harder then Fighting.

[@rimut230]

​@reaverfang377 the problem with that is that let's be honest, fedra never gave a single damn about respecting their citizens. talking only works when the other side is willing to listen.

[@reaverfang377]

@@rimut230 I'm not defending Fedra, they're a bunch of Militaristic Fash junk. But the Fireflies are trying to resist them in the worst way possible. Keep in mind we're dealing with the Last of Us Infected here, not a normal revolutionary dynamic. The Fireflies actions while *completely* understandable is endangering the average wastelander in this instance. The People aren't survivalists like them and even the Fire Flies are being destroyed by the infection so they *should* be taking more considerations into account. Fedra is equally if not more negligent of the average wastelander, killing people to 'secure survival' and presumably would keep killing until there is no one left to live. Jackson is the Answer.

[@austinkuchar7125]

My problem with the Fireflies is that they’re so much stuff against them. When they have literal files debating if they can even succeed with the cure. They never asked Ellie for her choice she was literally unconscious. They were likely going to Kill Joel if he didn’t fight back. The Firefly’s to me never felt like Hope it felt like they’re over exaggerated by others who are so very desperate for any kind of hope. If they did so much would have been different. Even if they had a cure there is zero evidence that fedra wouldn’t try to take it from them. So as much as I understand what they were supposed to be from the other sides of Dialogue. Along with their organization literally dying by the second, I can’t see how a cure could have been made by these people who were so ill prepared.

[@kingpinavatar]

You're misremembering. No such file exist stating that they don't know if they can create a cure. The closer you get are references to tests on subjects that weren't immune like eliie. And jerry saying he didn't exactly know how Ellie is immune and that he is going to recreate it in a lab setting.

[@austinkuchar7125]

@@kingpinavatar Me misremembering that isn’t unlikely, but even if you take that away for others it may change things to varying degrees. But it still doesn’t change my stance on this matter.

[@kingpinavatar]

@@austinkuchar7125 that's totally fine. The ending of tlou isn't meant to be a clear right or wrong thing. If you agree with Joel that's an opinion formed from your core values as a person and your experiences. I just had to correct that Mandela effect that has been spread around.

[@austinkuchar7125]

@@kingpinavatar I wish Mandela Affects were the least of my worries. But that’s life I guess.

[@VenathTehN3RD]

@@kingpinavatar I mean...that's pretty much exactly what the audio log you just referenced means. There's a reason why he says "We must find a way to replicate this" rather than affirming that they can actually do it. Because they WANT to do it, but don't currently know how to because they don't understand how her immunity works. Explicitly stating that their goal is to figure out how to replicate it indicates by default that they currently don't know how to replicate it, and in no way suggests there's any kind of guarantee that they will be able to figure it out. And if they can't figure out how it works, odds are they can't figure out how to replicate it, and in turn that would render the chances of them managing to use it to create a vaccine or cure are pretty much nonexistent. No matter how determined they are to figure out how to replicate it, until they ACTUALLY figure out how to do so they don't know if it's possible. And given their absolutely abhorrent research methodology - literally the first and only solution they jump to is the one that's guaranteed to be fatal for the only individual who has developed an immunity that anyone is ever known to have encountered - it doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in their ability to pull it off. Apparently no one involved had the basic medical research training or experience necessary to make them stop and consider the possibility that they could try to see if it progress could be made with non-lethal testing methods instead of just immediately going for "Let's just yoink the brain and hope for the best!" option.

[@bungalowfeuhler1541]

The Fireflies would hold the cure over peoples heads and demand power in exchange for protection from SPORES ALONE. You’d still be torn apart by infected and all of the infected would remain dangerous. The cure would likely serve to make people careless and lead to an increase in fatalities. The infected would still be lingering inside every structure, just waiting to tear people apart.

[@chrislaurent1137]

At best, Ellie would've died for nothing. At worst, Ellie would've died as a bargaining chip

[@gaia7240]

Why can't people understand this? All through the game you see the misery the fireflies did, even Tommy left them, but there is still some people who want ellie to kill herself for the cure

[@gaydolfbitler]

I think the point is everyone doing what they think is right. There arent morals or laws, and this means people rely on their own intuition. In a world where violence seems to be the only answer, the clashing of opinions is essentially a declaration of war.

[@behindtheveilofignorance]

@@gaia7240 no one wants Ellie to die. It’s just that if we accept that when Joel went on his rampage, all relevant characters were operating on the assumption that Ellie’s sacrifice would save the world, then his choice is much more compelling and morally complex. Assuming that Ellie would have died for nothing is lazy because it makes Joel’s decision to kill the fireflies as morally interesting as killing David and his cannibal crew. At least with David, Joel’s challenge was that he was physically wounded. Without a moral challenge like saving Ellie vs saving the world, his decision is less compelling.

[@gaia7240]

@@behindtheveilofignorance who cares? It feels like you play just for the drama than the actual plot

[@matti.8465]

The point of the Fireflies is that hope alone isn't enough. They're idealists who won't settle for anything less than the world as it was. If they put their efforts into making things better rather than making them perfect, they would have achieved a lot more. Sometimes you gotta make the most of what you got

[@BlackGoId]

They basically were trying to Revive a horse that’s been dead for over 15 years. Desperate fools clinging onto a society that doesn’t exist anymore. They feed off the hope of people in desperation and haven’t fully accustomed to living in the land of the wolves.

[@tdkey777]

It truly is shocking to know that all of the fireflies sins could have been forgiven if they had simply waited for her to wake up, and ask first. Had they asked Ellie permission, Joel would have no standing in what he did. But no, Joel ends up looking heroic in the end, and suffers in the same way ironically by simply not letting Ellie choose.

[@ryanli8371]

The fireflies are definitely no saints. But I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. 20 years later into the fungus infection destroyed the world. And how many lives are lost/infected. Thousands, millions? How many more humans will die if this continue. For the Fireflies, the cure was right in their hands and can stop this once and for all. And if they believe even if there is a 1% chance of creating a working cure and shaping the already destroyed world (for the better), they took at as absolute certainty. For them, they couldn't take chances when its right in their hands.

[@d3vilmaycry25]

Their sin is trying to kill Ellie in the first place. Why the F would you kill the only cure against the plague that wipe out civilization, they’re at a point in time where tech like IVIG exist. The most rational decision is to keep her alive, analyze her blood and slowly create a cure, but noooo, you gotta kill her, for whatever reason.

[@3adgamd3r]

We know she would’ve elected to do it, however the Fireflies didn’t and they couldn’t risk her saying no

[@Сайтамен]

@@3adgamd3r Which proves that they aren't good people.

[@Morten_Storvik]

@@Сайтамен If she had said no, what were they supposed to do? Just let the vaccine walk out the door and doom countless more people to die to the infection?

[@cameronelwood1443]

Awesome video! My main opinion of the Fireflies is that they portray the main issue that many activist groups have, trying to find validation and meaning by using real problems as catalysts without actually solving the problem. I didn’t find them as villains so much, but I felt that this game really hit home the fact that it is very, very easy to get people who want to do good to do some really bad things.

[@LibertyTalk76]

Have you ever read the book 'Ordinary Men?'

[@cameronelwood1443]

I haven't, what is it about?@@LibertyTalk76

[@LibertyTalk76]

@@cameronelwood1443 - Hello, hope this reply finds you well and in good spirit. The book 'Ordinary Men' documents the psychologically manipulative techniques deployed by the National Socialists in 1930s Germany, to slowly transform civilian policemen who initially resisted and were aghast at the treatment of Germans and Jews in the 'work' camps to being capable of unflinching executions of pregnant women at point blank range, among other barbarous acts. Indeed a rather depressing read, but nevertheless eye-opening.

[@MrBoogyman1988]

I look at it like this sometimes when put in a survival by any means necessary situation gud and well meaning people often end up doing all manner of evil and then try to justify it wich is what happened with the fireflies instead of actually trying to help people they ended up killing and pillaging people just like all the other groups in the game

[@sarasunshinemt4444]

​@MrBoogyman1988 "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

[@senfood]

The main flaw of the Fireflies is that they stayed on the fence. They should have either been completely benevolent or completely understanding that they were bastards. They wanted to still feel like the good guys despite making life worse for everything and everyone they interacted with. If Marlene were an actual revolutionary she would have had the surgery performed on Ellie before Joel woke up. Or she would have lied to him and told him that she died due to "complications." Instead, she told him the truth because she still wanted to play the role of a good person despite being an objectively awful person. If she were better, her people would have been nicer and they wouldn't have given Joel even more of an incentive to ruthlessly murder them. I feel no sympathy for her and it makes total sense that her sacrifices were not only wasted but doomed mankind in the process.

[@softballa13tondalayo]

You’re saying moral greatness was their flaw?

[@gunnarschlichting9886]

@@softballa13tondalayo Their flaw was doing horrible things then pretending to still be good people. They should have either committed by acknowledging they aren't heroes but believe the results will be worth whatever the price might be, or they should've actually been as moral as they wanted to think they are.

[@addex1236]

​@@softballa13tondalayothe point he was making is that weren't grey that were stupid

[@durodesduvo8424]

It’s a classic moral dilemma- kill one to save many or save one to doom many. The fireflies chose the former and Joel chose the latter it is not difficult to understand.

[@frankkennedy6388]

Marlene: "Guess what, we're shitty people Joel" Neil: Its like poetry, it rhymes

[@duncanthermidor9421]

the true flaw of Marleene is that for someone who knew Ellie's mother and watched her grow, she never TRUSTED Ellie, she never had faith in the fact that Ellie COULD ACCEPT sacrificing her life to save humanity.THIS is what legitimize Joel's actions because he acted with humanity when Marlene didn't.

[@romannumeralvii4285]

I feel like Tess wasn’t looking to the fireflies as the last ray of hope for humanity, I don’t think she never “believed” in them at all. I feel more so she just wanted to do something decent before she died. She talks about how her and Joel are “shitty people” and is absolutely manic to find anything to latch onto. She knows her time is up, and she’s afraid, afraid of what kind of life she’s lead up to this point, how she’s only taken from others to survive, with nothing to show for it. I just feel like she was a desperate person at the end of their life that needed a last act redemption to know her life wasn’t worthless.

[@pandapuff4634]

I love this video because I've been saying so much of this for years. The FEDRA control is smothering, the fireflies are constantly selling how much better they are- and all the world has done to Joel it TAKE. Took away his normal life, his daughter, his integrity, his sense of safety and trust, his friends, and now he's told 'you haven't given enough, we're taking Ellie too and just give me a reason to take you too'. Its ravenous and cruel, and then he's told to care about Marleene, who while she knew Ellie's parents and is going to kill her kid and break a promise... but she doesn't even wake Ellie up to say goodbye, explain it to her, let her say goodbye to Joel- nothing. He might have not gone off on them if he was treated like a person instead of just 'the smuggler'. I imagine Ellie would have been okay with it and given Joel some peace. I do HATE Abby too... but I think the reason he trusted her was that.. he was finally happy. He had his bother, a home, Ellie, even hecking COFFEE!! He had faith in people, there's even concept art of him dancing with a woman. He finally felt good for the first time in 30 years and safe... and Abby's gang of daddy issues took away someone else's dad figure as if she's the only one who lost parents.

[@gaia7240]

Yes true

[@B.B.B.BOO.]

saying "abby's gang of daddy issues" is hypocritical in a comment defending joel and ellie, who arent family and didnt even know eachother for even half of their lives at that point (when the surgery was supposed to happen)

[@JohnDoeWasntTaken]

@@B.B.B.BOO. How is it hypocritical?

[@legodude9]

One thing with Marlene that shows her intent is the way she moves away to distance herself from Joel when he sits up on the bed, also seemingly to keep the higher position from her PoV and an authority piece, the same with how she looks at the guard as she stands up, and the same way she doesn't rush to aid Joel when he's knocked down, she stands there towering over him with a position of power and authority over Joel (from her point of view) and seemingly is riding high on it.

[@kazekamiha]

The best part? I've heard that you could get all you need to cure that with a spinal tap from Ellie. After all a living subject tells you more then a dead one. These guys were always incompetent; heart in the right place (For some of them, anyway) but with no idea on *how* they'd get the job done.

[@Morten_Storvik]

The fungus does not grow in the spine buddy. If you are going to call someone incompetent then at least know the basics of the condition in question.

[@kazekamiha]

@@Morten_Storvik Google: *What results can a spinal tap show?* Lumbar puncture (spinal tap) - Mayo Clinic A lumbar puncture can help diagnose serious infections, such as meningitis; other disorders of the central nervous system, such as Guillain-Barre syndrome and multiple sclerosis; bleeding; or cancers *of the brain* or spinal cord. If your going to criticize a point understand the point of what you're criticizing first.

[@MrFrankEast]

@@Morten_Storvik My guy you can't make a vaccine for literal fungus and hypothetically if you could you could just take a sample on the top of her brain and regrow it on mycelium without removing the entire fungus. Bad writing.

[@taylorknight3577]

Honestly her blood would have been enough but the. Best they could create is Maybe a anti fungal since there's no cure for fungus but then who needs logic when you have neil drunkman

[@jorjicostava9802]

@@Morten_Storvik They could’ve still done a Biopsy cause all they needed was a Sample of the mutated virus Ellie has. There is 0 Reason for them to kill her. So they in fact are incompetent. And the Virus affects the entire central nervous system, that’s why the freshly infected are still somewhat human but are forced to move by the cordyceps. so a Spinal Tap would have worked too Theoretically.

[@rudypepperable]

"Tess believes so strongly that she wants to fight for it, it willing to die for it." Sorry, going to have to disagree with you slightly here. Tess staying behind to fight off FEDRA was mainly because she figured she was dead anyway.

[@matti.8465]

Yeah, and knowing she was dying Tess desperately wanted to redeem herself by helping save the world

[@roboorc1234]

Why I don't trust fireflies is because all the people who talk good about fireflies are those people who are too innocent (Henry, Ellie's friend) or who is desperate to make other chose (Tess). And any who was close to them keep distance to them even they have the same goal(Robert, Tommy), this is a textbook two face a-hole company sign in real life

[@Andrew-fq7pu]

Exactly. This is how the game starts cutting away at your initial belief/trust until it crushes it by the end, changing the initial narrative

[@AeroZephron]

I just had my first playthrough of TLOU part 1 - My PS3 broke a few weeks after launch, so I waited over a decade to listen to FatBrett talk about it.

[@thoyo]

you never went back and played it? just wondering

[@WandererofTheAlgorithm]

@@thoyoright, I would've lol. But to be fair we don't know their situation.

[@Clapperofcheeks5000]

Maybe he’s American didn’t have a lot of free time cause they have to work far too much

[@AeroZephron]

@@Clapperofcheeks5000 We've all had a tough time down in the coal mines.

[@SaberRexZealot]

How do so many people break their consoles. It genuinely baffles me. I had my PS3 since 2010 and it still works.

[@stubbaloo1602]

Brett, you are the best analytic and review channel, too many people just essentially recap a story without adding any substance. I love your meaningful dissection of thematic elements and your ability to contribute to the discussion of the stories these games present. Thank you and I'm always looking forward to your next video.

[@nernoision]

Right 🙌👏

[@oscarftb]

I agree with this

[@crazyinsane500]

"Contribute" Hahaha, that's a funny way of putting "taking things from subreddits and presenting it as his own ideas."

[@stubbaloo1602]

@@crazyinsane500 he's the still better than anyone else on this platform

[@crazyinsane500]

@@stubbaloo1602 Plagiarists tend to be right up there with people who issue false copyright strikes. They're not respected for a reason, which would be why nobody talks about this channel.

[@AlbedoAtoned]

Yeah the last section of the first game was the final nail in the coffin for them. Imagine you make this trek across country on foot or by car, deal with multiple life threatening situations and build a familial-like bond with somebody who you are supposed to transport. You finally reach the front door step of the place where you were supposed to deliver her, but she's not breathing because of the danger you were just in. Now imagine being the guy who was approaching them. You see a man who appears to be trying to save a young girl who nearly drowned. Is your first thought that you should demand he raise his hands? Why is that necessary? And isn't it possible that is the girl that was immune? Wouldn't your first thought be to help get the girl medical attention? Even if she was just some random girl, wouldn't you want to help her? If you're one of the good guys, surely you would care about her right? If anybody hadn't been paying attention, that was their wake up call. Immediately afterward it is clear that Joel was not treated in good faith. Maybe they thought he would be a threat, which is true, but I think the intention was always to push him into a fight as an "excuse" because Marlene didn't let them do it right away. It seemed they made basically every effort to egg him on. They very much come across as cartoonish if you think about it. While Joel mainly did this for Ellie's sake, it should not be understated that had he not went and saved her, that he likely would have been killed anyway. Had he not been doing it for Ellie, he would have most certainly done it to save himself. This is why I cannot take them as a group that is to be trusted. Because it seems they went into it entirely in bad faith in order to kill Joel once outside, force him to fend for himself with nothing (and die), or push him into trying to save himself, which would give them an excuse to murder him. Which makes it kind of funny because they all miscalculated. The rank and file fireflies miscalculated by provoking him into attacking. Marlene miscalculated in several ways. Marlene knew just how tough and dangerous Joel is. Which means that you either need to take him out when you have your chance, or try to get him to leave peacefully. The first one she chose not to do. When he was unconscious, that would have been a good time to do it. Does it seem evil? Well yeah, but they have no qualms with killing unconscious children, so I can't imagine killing a dangerous adult would be any worse. The other way she miscalculated was not realizing just how much bloodlust the rank and file had. This and her own words meant that she failed to get Joel to leave peacefully. They basically did nothing to actually make not saving Ellie seem like a good option. Good going Marlene!

[@danielshore1457]

You could say that it was a parallel to the beginning of the game where FEDRA did not let joel get aid for his daughter and instead shot at them. Showing that they are one in the same

[@cattledog901]

​@@danielshore1457That wasn't FEDRA that was a US army soldier that shot Joel and his daughter. FEDRA was formed after the infection took over.

[@azizahanekwe5712]

@@danielshore1457thats actually a parallel that I didn't notice. It kind of scares me how accurate the game depicted human corruption. Like isn't this person supposed to be one of the good guys? Why are you SO skeptical of this person to the point where you are killing for no concrete reason (not even when Joel was holding Sarah. You kill them just to kill them not even positive if they're infected or not? So they deserved to die because they existed?) And even when he was trying to revive Ellie. Like aren't y'all occupying a hospital? Why aren't you concerned over a dying child? It makes me worried that if this shit actually happens, the same story would play out where evil individuals are the face of “hope” just to spit it right back at ya😕

[@BigPanda096]

The fireflies were kinda just way too violent their first response to basically everything was guns blazing. They tried to make enemies everywhere they went. All their memebers felt like they wanted to be bad ass killing machines instead of people fighting for humanity. They pillaged people just trying to survive then forced their subjugation at gun point. They acted WAY nore like a group of gangster thug wanna bes that got way too big and needed "something," to claim all the killing and pillaging was for. But every one of their memebers are almost inexperienced or just straight up incompetent at what their job description is. They remind me of the mercenary factions from Fallout frankly. They contribute nothing and take everything. They never would have been capable of holding onto a vaccine if Joel was able to escape them so easily. The government would have utterly flattened the Fireflies and took the vaccine. Ellie would have been killed to supply the powerful elite with the ULTIMATE POSSIBLE TOOL TO SUBJUGATE THE WHOLE OF HUMANITY. The fireflies, utterly worthless in few words.

[@hustheposum]

Excellent video. Very well articulated and nuanced. I 100% agree with your points. This is largely what I thought the whole time but some of the points you made and angles you approached the subject gave me new perspective on the whole thing. Especially the idea that Jackson is actually what humanity should strive for, not sacrificing children for a chance at something. It also gave me a new appreciation of the writing, even though I already thought it was excellent. Great work all around. Subscribed, I’m about to watch the Odin video now.

[@laserdiscisawesome1263]

I honestly love it when a story portrays the rebels in a realistic light or how they are not a morally good shining beam of hope. Most rebellions are built on a good cause but they then boil down to interests of power, greed and personal goals

[@pervertedpancho]

I wished you talked about TLOU 2 bc when you play as Ellie you notice some notes about a hunter with a bow who fought back against the wolves who are ex-fireflies, showing that they too eventually become like FEDRA, forcing their will onto people

[@Andrew-fq7pu]

Marlene's not the leader of the Fireflies, she's the leader of the cell closest to Joel at the start of the game, and pretty much the only one left when you meet her. Marlene is actually the most tragic character in the game to me, and the only death I have regret over. She legitimately cares about Ellie, enough to commit the sin of heresy by noticing some of the ascientific idiocy in Jerry's plan & asking questions. Her rationality makes her refuse to murder Joel. Notes you find make it clear that she's having a crisis of faith analagous to Tommy's and is on the verge of quitting. In fact, her lack of belief & trust in Jerry is the only reason Ellie survived, because her decision not to obey orders & murder Joel is the only reason he was able to save Ellie. In fact, she could've just shot him and recovered Ellie when she had the drop on him. Instead, she starts a conversation. I have no doubt given more time she'd've helped Joel escape and gone with them. In fact, that's where I thought it was headed, until Joel shot her. I can't even fault him for that, as every second wasted convincing her is a second the Fireflies are closing in on him. Marlene clearly agrees with Joel and is struggling to admit it, because it means she has to accept she's been wrong for years. People hold onto their delusions for dear life when all they've done is sacrifice a small amount amount of time and social capital on it. Marlene has sacrificed friends and family, risked her own life repeatedly, killed a lot and spilled her own blood for hers. I don't believe she wanted Joel to justify her choices, but prove them wrong so she could let go of her last vestigial loyalty to the Fireflies. The whole point of the game is summed up by "it can't all have been for nothing". It is the most powerful part of the story, and the most painful part of shedding immaturity. It's a painful lesson, when you realise a lot of what you want to believe as being part of some world-changing delusion you've sacrificed a lot for is just that - a delusion. Children cling to these delusions, to escape their misery and also to impart upon themselves a sense of significance to an existence they fear has none. It's the main allure of religion. This game's strongest lesson is that buying into big, grand fantasies and delusions is far less important in making the world a better place than the value we choose to place on a single innocent life and whether we choose to respect the humanity of others, or choose to justify horrific acts of brutality and selfishness because of the value we believe we can extract from them. The only difference by the end between FEDRA and the Fireflies, is competency and capability. Jerry is no better than David. He's killed more people in far more horrific ways and just as selfishly. I think he's actually worse, because his saviour complex enables him to justify his evil as good. David at least knows what he is. He has a "better them than us" survival mindset. Jerry has "better humanity than you" mindset, which is behind every collectivist genocide (an oxy moron, I know) of the 20th century.

[@gaia7240]

Beautiful comment, I loved Marlene character it was so misterious I wanted to know more about her point of view, like you said she got stuck in a terrible position and her lingering cost her life

[@ryanjonathanmartin3933]

"which is behind every collectivist genocide (an oxymoron, I know) of the 20th century" Stalin was not like Jerry. He knew he was an asshole and embraced it. Everything he did was for his own personal power and enrichment. He saw life in a very nihilistic manner. His older colleagues in the Bolshevik party generally disliked him (including Lenin himself later in life) but saw him as useful because he was basically an enforcer who would hire goons and gangsters to beat up and intimidate opponents. He was also effective at starting what were essentially terrorist campaigns where he and his goons would bomb buildings and factories. Lenin and Mao Tse Tung on the other hand, yeah they were like Jerry, for sure.

[@PixelFusionProductions]

You raise a lot of good points about the Fireflies, and I've lobbied my own criticisms of them not giving Ellie a voice in her fate. As for why Marline doesn't shoot him there, I would offer this explanation... The Fireflies had few people left, and Joel had just gutted a good portion of them not to mention their last good doctor. I think her goal here was to recruit him. You are right that she was looking for validation as well, but given she may have been trying to leverage Ellie even more to get not just another soldier, but a Really Good soldier on her side. She played the game of diplomacy at the end, perhaps too little too late, it failed, and she died. It's possible diplomacy was her last good card, because with her unit mostly gutted, and her surgeon dead, even with Ellie alive and Joel dead, she ultimately would have had nothing left. Perhaps she would have taken Ellie to others who could help. Abby and Owen went to Seattle, perhaps because of her father's connections? Marline might have gone there too looking for help. Good video as always.

[@leoSaunders]

dude. it's Ellie

[@PixelFusionProductions]

@@leoSaunders Fixed.

[@HeyBuddiesClips]

The thing that bothers me most about the fireflies is their entitlement to Ellie. She’s just ‘the subject.’ I remember a friend of mine disagreeing that Ellie should live saying ‘her name will go down in the history books as the cure!’ 1) what history books? Who is making new books here, in the apocalypse?? 2) they never even referenced to her name, or cared. Only Marlene. I believe that had Joel left Ellie there and walked away they would have sniped him in the back of the head. They wanted to kick him out into the world with nothing. Even Marlene says in her diary they wanted her to kill him. But back to the fireflies entitlement, Jerry him self trying to convince Marlene with his ‘everything terrible we’ve done becomes worth it and ok with this one act’ speech. Shows how the majority of the fireflies never take accountability. It’s all for the “cause” where as the ones that see through it, leave. Like Tommy or any negative writings from ex fireflies shows.

[@kyleratliff5114]

Great analysis, as always Brett. I had some thoughts about the conclusion regarding the practicality of Marlene’s decision to let Joel live at the end of the game that departs from yours. You described Marlene as “extremely idiotic” to surrender her weapon to Joel when she confronts him as he leaves the hospital, and even compared that to Joel’s decision to disclose his identity to Abby in the cabin. While these decisions do present extreme risks to each person, the calculation made by both Joel and Marlene is motivated by the desire redeem themselves. Marlene is willing to risk her life in giving Joel the chance to surrender Elle, even though she just betrayed him. She wants the moral sanction from Joel to provide moral relief for an action she is deeply conflicted about. She knows, at bottom, what she is doing is evil. The Fireflies created a context in which Elle’s right to life was violated and in serious jeopardy; anyone with the strength or fortitude to save Elle had the moral right to do so (though, that case would require a separate post to justify). Calling these decisions “idiotic”, or even “self-destructive”, in my view, greatly diminishes the role morality plays in one’s life and happiness, which is the only reason to be alive in the first place. Everyone alive has the irreplaceable need for self-esteem; living for its own sake isn’t worth living. They need some ideal to strive for and achieve in a morally sound way. Without this, one lives a life as depicted by Joel at the beginning, which truly isn’t worth living. Living morally means living practically, otherwise you deprive yourself the life suited for human beings. For a soul capable of killing an innocent child for a possible vaccine, surrendering herself to shot was the greatest pleasure in the form of moral relief for her sins. Marlene made the practical calculation that if Joel were to kill her, that action would be justified and she would have a final erudition of inner peace. I think many commentators discussing the “self-destructive” actions of Joel (and in this video Marlene) don’t fully account for how crucial self-esteem really is. In fact, it’s these pragmatic, unprincipled decisions like Marlene rationalizes that motivates her desire to let herself be destroyed in the first place. Redeeming themselves to themselves was the most practical thing both Joel and Marlene had done. What would have been better, however, would be to identify the right morality and live in accordance with it from the start. Maybe then Marlene would have been alive.

[@V-man117]

It's crazy to me how some people defend the fireflies and Abby. Joel was 100 percent justified for his actions. Not only didn't they ask Ellie if she wanted to give her life for the cure, but they also didn't give Joel a chance to talk with her and say goodbye. They rushed the procedure without knowing if it had good chances of succeeding. Then you have Abby. Yes, your father got killed, but think how wrong he was. He didn't know if the procedure would lead to a cure, yet he was willing to take a child's life so easily and quickly, something he wasn't willing to do if his own daughter was in that position. It is totally normal that a father figure, like Joel, would go ballistic if they put his "daughter" in that situation. They knew he was close with her, yet didn't hesitate to grab her away from him. I would do the exact same things he did, if I were in his situation.

[@cakeguy]

Thank you Mr.brett, for blessing us with yet another delectable video

[@cameronhermann9400]

If they waited for Ellie to wake up she might have fractured/broken their dream/delusion. Ellie would have asked a bunch of smart, intelligent questions to the doctor, Marlene, everybody. “Do u know why I am immune? Can u replicate and distribute it to everyone, even FEDRA and their territories?” Important questions to see if she really would sacrifice herself, or decide the Fireflies were lying to themselves and everyone else.

[@lumeronswift]

If you are going to take the "the devs were a bit too successful in making us doubt the Fireflies" stance, you have to also apply that to the other groups: FEDRA was successful at keeping infection out of the quarantine zones and at keeping people as fed as possible. They strove to maintain order and structure and safety in a shattered world. The hunters were maintaining their territory... I dont know if they can be qualified as redeemable, but perhaps they kept their families safe, as we never see them... Jackson... everyone probably agrees that it was functional. and like you said, Tommy left the Fireflies because of their methodology and started a real community. David's group was a successful group that (as far as we know) only resorted to cannibalism due to an exceptionally harsh winter, and were otherwise a functional society.

[@aljeandropacheco3608]

I get they want the old way back. But the old way doesnt work anymore. Fedra would be the only way to move forward at all because it takes an iron grip to get things under control.

[@dfmrcv862]

I've always been a bit split if it was bad writing or not on the Firefly's actions in the end. Like... they *could* have saved themselves a *lot* of grief had they just let Ellie make her own. They *could* have been more relaxed with Joel. Now, I guess you could argue that given their situation, with the US Military hunting them down, presumably having already wiped most of them out, and presumably that being their lone safe area left, then *maybe* they wanted to hurry things up to have a chance at regaining whatever remained of the public's trust in them. I *think* you can excuse their behavior if you factor that in. It's their job to find the cure and that's that, but it just makes it even clearer that they were doomed from the start. They're not thinking clearly, they're panicked. They're not out to try and find a cure for the good of humanity but to secure their own gains (I really don't care what the doctor in part two says about it "making it all worth it" if what you've done is so terrible you can't take a day to think it through before doing another atrocity to get that "redemption"). Sure, Marlene may be a true believer. That's why Joel doesn't get dome'd in that last scene. But in a way, her failing to shoot him is just more proof that Joel was right. Yeah, you can argue it didn't matter to Joel if Ellie would've chosen to side with the Fireflies. Cause it's true. That's irrelevant to him. But if the argument is that the Fireflies really did represent this final line of hope for a cure... well, the writers did a pretty bad job of showing them having a chance at it. Maybe it's bad writing. Maybe intentional. I hear there were some changes done to who was writing the story between the two games. but to me it makes way more sense that the incompetence of the Fireflies was intentional.

[@MrTigracho]

It was. It's a realistic depiction of freedom fighters in a apocalyptic World. They long for the civillization and the values of the old world, and for that reason oppose FEDRA. Yet, like a lot of revolutionary movements, they are a mess. Their ideals are good, yet for the sake of it, they do violent things that kill innocent people, they are unable to maintain their gains. All in a world that no longer is secure or resourceful enough that mantaining the lifestyle and values of the freedom and equality(the previous world struggled with that. Imagine it after the apocalypse) Ppl focus more on surviving and staying alive, thus security. Of course, if one is able to, they should seeks to way to improve the world, but that kind of efford should be not Spontaneous and in absolute desperation if Humanity is not that close to dissapear, as efforts like this require meticulous preparation, resources, organization and TIME. Which the fireflies lacked, mostly because, fundamentally, the root of their organization was focused in their ideals, and not in being practical to the circunstances.

[@Pandora234able]

You’re the FIRST person to convince me that the fireflies would’ve squandered the cure. You did awesome laying down your points!

[@nickymo]

It’s ironic that if Marlene did ask Ellie, we know she would’ve said yes, & Joel probably would’ve had to accept it. I think Marlene’s selfishness forbid her from granting Ellie that agency because she didn’t want to consider the possibility that Ellie would say no. She didn’t want to risk putting that on her own conscience so she doesn’t even ask the question of what Ellie wants.

[@azizahanekwe5712]

Exactly. This is where Marlene is at fault and can even be perceived as the villain, which this action solidified that thought for me. I don't understand why she was hesitant to ethically include her patient into this decision, as Joel literally told her that she fought like hell to get there, so why would Ellie back out regardless of whether or not Marlene tells the full truth of what Ellie’s fate might be? Very selfish of the character. Made me dislike her overall.

[@dylanlewis5113]

Ellie says she would've said yes in hindsight. In the moment, who knows. There's a chance that Ellie would've said no. And that's a chance Marlene couldn't take.

[@blueodin0946]

Babe, wake up, new FatBrett video dropped

[@galalxien]

we are awoken

[@poofrick2111]

we are awoken

[@Spiderdude-if8ud]

we are awoken

[@commissarkordoshky219]

we are awoken

[@clips-are-random]

we are awoken.

[@________5347]

The Fireflies and Marlene are the ultimate hypocrites. Everything was about Marlene’s fee-fees. So quick to kill a child but begged for her own life. Felt good putting an end to them and all three surgeons, especially Marlene.

[@leoSaunders]

in before, Bruce Straley's final move: display the Fireflies as incompetent so Neil can't get his way in a potential sequel.

[@gatling216]

There's an axiom in storytelling that I think gets overlooked a lot: if you make a character unlikable, you shouldn't be surprised when people don't like them. Heroes, villains, side characters or even just background extras, the audience will latch onto characters they can relate to and reject those they can't. So when someone like Joel, who we see throughout the game to be a gruff but ultimately caring father figure for Ellie, square off against the Fireflies, who are portrayed as incompetent at best, the objective morality of the situation goes out the window. This, I think, was TLOU's ultimate flaw as a story. The writers clearly wanted to make the Fireflies morally complex, and to inject some ambiguity into Joel's decision to save Ellie. Judging by the second game, though, they were expecting us to reject Joel's decision. That was a hard sell to the fanbase in the first place, largely because the disparity between the perception of Joel and the perception of the Fireflies was so vast. We understand why Joel made the decision to save Ellie. It makes logical, rational sense from the point of view of the player. Even if it's muddier in the macro sense, there's nothing in the game that leads us to think the Fireflies were making the right call. The second game presupposes that we're supposed to have some empathy for Abby because of what Joel did to her father. It might have even worked, if Abby was in the least bit likeable, or if she didn't go to such extreme lengths to get her revenge, or if they bothered to introduce her perspective of events before she killed Joel, or if- You know what? I think we can just leave it at "they could have handled her better" or we'll be here all day. The point is, if you make a character unlikable, you shouldn't be surprised when the audience doesn't like them. The Fireflies were not likeable. Marlene was not likeable. Abby was not likeable. Surprise surprise, people didn't like them, and their moral or ethical position was weakened in the eyes of the audience because of it.

[@MOONSUN4Life]

Stunning, astonishing analysis. Thank you, a thousand times thank you for making this video.

[@timothygriffith2740]

You hit the nail on the head when talking about how the writers were too good at making the fireflies seem bad and or incompetent. And that's why part two is such a drastic turn, because the player who has the God POV has been given info time and time again and seen actions time and time again from the fireflies that leads you to believe not only are they not trustworthy and bad people but also incapable of doing what they set out to do. And I don't think this was a mistake. The writers intentionally did this for the first game to justify Joel's decision in the end even if Joel made the decisions for the wrong reasons. But then when part two came around they wanted to try to tell a really deep compelling story about revenge And how nobody's the good guy or the bad guy and so in a sense they retcon the information that was given in part 1 to try to justify the fireflies

[@annabear6313]

Loved this analysis and I’ve always said this about the fireflies that if they were so good why tf did they beat up Joel while he was trying to save Ellie?? They’re not the saints they think they are. Plus who’s to say if they even did develop a “cure” that they could be trusted with it?

[@JB2FROSTY]

U act like Marlene pops up out of nowhere but at the beginning of the game, a henchman tells Tess that Marlene is looking for Robert. Yall are both looking for him at the same time so the chances of running into each other were actually pretty high.

[@bizzyg5751]

Can we all talk about how in only a few seconds, that Doctor (Later revealed to be Abby's dad) made himself one of the hugest villains with only several lines and no face reveal. With as many failures as the Fireflies had finding a cure, rushing to sacrifice the closest thing they have to a clue to immunity is insane, and that doctor essentially already has this idea that mankind is saved before he even butchers Ellie's brain. If they failed again, then what? Ellie would have died for nothing. Add the fact that they don't even consider a different meaning to a cure/solution in Ellie, such as a future for humanity without the cure, but through natural selection, or even a future of unification, where people work together so they can outlive the plague and the worst of them. If you look at the world they've created after 20 years or so, how extremely violent, heartless, and soulless the uninfected are, when the plague is supposed to be the ravaging disaster, a cure to the plague seems like a nightmare. The uninfected seem to be the problem, and the plague an inconvenient scourge. Especially when you see how much is achieved by small bands of people working together.

[@nickelakon5369]

It's incredibly weird how they don't consider attempting to scrape a sample of ellie's brain fungus and innoculating subjects with it. Maybe even attempting it first with already infected people to see if it can save them (even though it probably wouldn't) I just can't help but think it would be incredibly simple to essentially farm Ellie's fungus without killing her.

[@lumeronswift]

Throughout the game the Fireflies have been depicted as taking shots in the dark (hence their namesake, I suppose) so it makes sense that they would try something out of hope rather than out of certainty. They keep doing blind-faith things like attacking FEDRA when they aren't ready (getting slaughtered in response) and abandoning long-term efforts like the study at the university... and very nearly murdering their "one chance at a cure" by knocking Joel out mid-resuscitation. They never get anything right, and they keep hurting people around them in the meantime.

[@zillagrilla315]

Agreed. Say what you will about FEDRA but at least they had long term solutions and try their best to help their populations. Did they rule with an iron fist, yes but if every zombie movie and tv series show us that one infection could destroy a community.

[@th11ccbo15]

„ Nouuuu but they trying their best and have hope to save homan race isnt it always the greatest guud ?”

[@ash_from_youtube9387]

yo, this video essay was actually so good. So well articulated. There are parts I disagree with (Tess only believed in the Fireflies because she was dying and needed it to be for something) but it's still incredible

[@williamjackson8782]

My head canon was Marlene’s gun just wasn’t loaded. So all she could do was bluff.

[@wolfidessdragondol]

Would make sense, since the FireFlies were down on their luck so maybe that included ammo

[@nernoision]

Damn you’re thinking like a survivor 🧠

[@gaia7240]

Uh interesting I never thought of that

[@cacti5520]

God i adore this video smt about the topic, the way you explain everything like youre a teacher, you deserve way more attention

[@mackdontpayforstrange3207]

Great video sir. Personally I've never believed the Fireflies were ever close to a cure. It's ambiguous but based on environmental storytelling I think Joel was right even if for selfish reasons.

[@Gollvieg]

One of the biggest snag about the whole "killing" Ellie thing is that the only ones saying that it would be a lethal procedure are two non-doctors. From everything that is presented, there is literally nothing that could be found about the infection that would not be found by a non-lethal biopsy, a procedure that has risks in a post-apocalyptic world, but is not a guaranteed death. Word of god aside, if the doctor was a surgeon then it is a near certainly that the real procedure would be a biopsy and that Marleen and Joel did not understand a lick of the true situation.

[@Morten_Storvik]

They needed the substance that was causing the immunity, which was growing in her brain, which could not be removed without being fatal. And Jerry Anderson was literally the lead surgeon.

[@gunnarschlichting9886]

@@Morten_Storvik Brain surgery is a thing, and people have lived missing chunks of their brain. Just saying.

[@Gollvieg]

@valkyria20chronicles Like I said, NOTHING about the procedure is something that would not be better done with a biopsy. It is either a case where the writers did zero research and wanted to force an outcome or one where an uneducated, selfish murderer decided that he knew better than everyone and commits violence against doctors. Something that is very real in the COVID-19 era we are in.

[@matti.8465]

Maybe the doctors available weren't skilled enough to do this in a non-lethal way

[@Morten_Storvik]

@@gunnarschlichting9886 The tissue they needed was all over the brain. Ellie would not survive.

[@FreemanicParacusia]

I’d be curious what you thought of their depiction in the TV show. If nothing else Marlene’s introduction is ENTIRELY different. Even presents herself as a moral authority over our protagonists, telling them to keep their weapons trained on *her* and not on Ellie.

[@LCyte88]

These deep dives!!! Omg I never knew how much I needed them in my life

[@EmeraldCrocodil]

"Don't waste this gift, Joel." (c) Marlene, after deciding Ellie has to die, but Joel may live. "We let you both live and you wasted it!" (c) Abby, after deciding Joel has to die, but Ellie and Tommy may live. This... "benevolence" of allowing someone to go on living, while condemning their loved ones to death with an exalted feeling of doing the right thing, - it is nothing but hypocrisy, and it disgusts me. You're not gods, to decide who may live and who must die; you're just another imperfect human being, murdering or sparing other humans for your imperfect reasons; at least Joel seemed to understand that. So I'm not sorry for Marlene. Good riddance, ye high and mighty lightbringer.

[@cloudtx]

I literally thought the same thing! The way they "think" they're doing Joel and Ellie a favor by killing their loved ones and letting them live with that for the rest of their lives. Such foolishness, how could Marlene and Abby think that those two wouldn't take action?

[@SneakyMane]

I really love how in your videos you include segments of cutscenes and dialogue. Not a lot of people do that

[@GrandRegentSScratch]

Man I’ve been watching your videos for a while now and I gotta say I love your channel, I think you should look at Injustice 1 + 2 and do a deconstruction of villainy on Evil Superman in that game.

[@raidanforster6273]

Or Wonder Woman, injustice version is a total Bitch

[@VVEGA2940]

I love how even the show completely justified joel's choice

[@J-manli]

I would argue it's less justification and more so making us understand why he did it. In the post episode podcast for the finale, Druckman and Mazin didn't care about the utility/ futility of the vaccine, they just wanted the audience to 1) understand why Joel did it, and 2) know that Ellie would not have wanted Joel to do it.

[@Mr-Rinn]

Sort of. But in the show they also clearly figure out HOW Ellie became immune in the first place and Marlene explains it to Joel, so I got more of a sense that they might actually know what they’re doing. But it also keeps dodgier elements like not even asking Ellie or giving her a chance to say goodbye.

[@Morten_Storvik]

Joel was not justified. His choice was simply understandable.

[@Morten_Storvik]

@@Mr-Rinn Ellie`s consent would not really be relevant in this situation.

[@Clapperofcheeks5000]

@@Morten_Storviknope

[@prodigy-hu6dy]

Great video but a very puzzling omission is the Firefly from the Museum in Part II. His notes and the wall inscriptions clue us more into the actions of the group and how they operated. It was worth at least a small mention.

[@Cruddy129]

Their biggest flaw is having a nobody who's a doctor/member that coincidently has a daughter that would hold a grudge to joel and ellie years later

[@SchulzEricT]

I never played TLOU2; how did the daughter know about Joel saving Ellie? I assumed all the Fireflies were killed, so... how'd she hear about it?

[@ParagonFury]

@@SchulzEricT She was in the hospital right as Joel killed them all.

[@Myaccount678]

​@@ParagonFuryWhat a coincidence

[@LibertyTalk76]

Marlene didn't shoot because she calculated her aim to be so poor she could have easily hit Ellie. Great video. +10 for the perfect use of 'odious.' Your removal of the veil of morality gifted to Marlene is masterful and spot on. Really enjoy your deep dives and passion to cover the Last of Us franchise. One imagines had the Fireflies not followed the incompetent Marlene who was so incapable she lost an entire brigade of Fireflies?? What precisely does SHE poses that makes her leadership material? Perhaps if so many were not senselessly slaughtered under her 'strategic prowess' the remaining Fireflies would not be such a bitter contemptuous group of losers, who club a man performing CPR. SIDEBAR: You know, when Edward Snowden leaked the NSA files, some tried to smear him as a traitor for exposing the criminal lies of the 'intel community.' However, a historian on C-Span pointed out that protecting those who expose lies from criminal prosecution, is as old as the Republic. General George Washington, during the midst of the American War for Independence, gave his own money & effectively held a 'Go-Fund-Me' to provide legal counsel for a whistleblower within the ranks who outed two continental generals for torturing British POWs. THAT is the type of leader that gets men to cross the Delaware River in the dead of night on Christmas Eve, who indeed lost battles, but managed to keep starving, shoeless young men and boys re-enlisting all the way to Yorktown, with thanks to of course the French Navy. That is the type of leader necessary to WIN a revolution over an unyielding Tyranny. Based on all that we know of the Fireflies' disregard for any notion of principled fight for the Dignity of Humanity's Liberty & right to live in peace, it is further likely that were they actually capable of developing a 'Safe & Effective Jab™' they would have used such as leverage to maintain their own grip on power. Not outside of the claim made in the opening credits do we see or hear a single firefly behave or make an appeal to the dignity of Human Liberty, the U.S. Constitution, or the rule of law. Because again, Marlene isn't anything close to the type of Washington-esque leader capable of defeating the tyranny of FEDRA.

[@snakesnoteyes]

Or, (at least before the second game) TLoU is about the complexity of hope. Joel has no hope until he connects with Ellie, but Tess has hope via the idea of Ellie and by proxy the Fireflies because they can (in theory) use this traumatized child with survivor’s guilt to save the world.

[@HealthyMaxwellRoth]

Hell yeah what a nice video to end the day

[@michelcomenta]

that's why I love this game so much! No one is entirely good or bad, people do good and bad things. and I loved your take on Jackson, I had never thought about that and how it makes sense.

[@QuestionableLifeChoices]

yes, exactly! i think they lost touch with their humanity to some degree and they certainly lost sight of their actual end goal (i.e. the return of justice and peace) my main argument is that their science was shit. they explicitly said that if you take ellie's blood (with cordyceps in it), it just becomes like every other fungus sample. to me, that says that there's something IN ellie herself that is repressing or changing the fungus and they want to take the only living sample of it and kill it?! the moment they cut that fungus out of her brain, it will grow just like normal and they will have lost the only hope they had to figuring out what about ellie's system protected her. they had SO MUCH more testing to do before jumping to "we need to remove all of it from her brain." they had her for what, an hour? not nearly enough time to do any conclusive testing. it might be from the nervous system, immune system, or some combination making her immune. i think they were so used to using rash violence to get what they needed that they forgot that some things NEED patience to achieve. i appreciate they were short on time and desperate, but this is not the kind of thing that could not be gotten through reckless action.

[@kristym7149]

I have been on such a Last of Us content kick lately and you coming out with a video about it tops it all off, I love your style of content so much.

[@sunnyblack3359]

As much as i overall agree with the video i have to disagree with the conclusion statement made at 46:38. Yes, Jackson is a good example for humanity to follow but as long as the Cordyceps is still a threat it will never be able to reach it's full potential. A perfect example of my point is Ish's sewer community which was pretty much a mini jackson but look what happened. It only takes a few infected people to go under the radar for Jackson to fall apart the same way Ish's community did, which is essentially the same way the *world* of _The Last of Us_ fell apart during the first outbreak. Sure now there is a bunch of horrible people roaming around, but let's not forget that the reason why they were enabled to behave this way in the first place is because of the fall of society as it was, due to the Cordyceps. In my opinion Jackson is only half of the solution and a potential cure to the plague would be the other half, as Humanity will never be able to thrive as long as it's both corrupted *and* vulnerable to the virus.

[@tysawyer4502]

The fireflies stared with a noble cause but after loss after loss they got bitter. And winning became more important than their original objective.

[@Velshard]

Honestly, I always knew Marlene was the real villain. A sad stupid villain seeking validation.

[@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ]

She seems like someone tired. Trying to find purpose. But in all the wrong ways.

[@Lucyferbby]

Brett uploading will always be the best drop knowing the quality of dudes videos. Wish I found you sooner bro cause them god of war videos was solid asf

[@petermj1098]

“Endure and survival” is the theme of the game. The Fireflies’s goal is survival by sacrificing people’s endurance. FEDRA’s goal is endurance by sacrificing people’s survival. Joel’s goal is balancing selfish endurance and selfish survival. Tess reflected Joel’s selfish survivalism. Bill reflected Joel’s selfish endurance. Tommy’s goal is balancing selfless endurance and selfless survival. Tommy is arguably the only hero character in the game. Tommy made a decent enduring society better than FEDRA, and made a decent surviving group of people better than Fireflies.

[@pianovice8271]

I've been waiting for a video about the Fireflies for so long

[@andrewwang8021]

Very interesting analysis of Marlene's "spiritual" moment.

[@amelia.js_]

So happy he’s making more tlou video essays

[@XOFInfantryman]

Another day, another victory for FEDRA chads 🍷🗿 Taken with no sweat, Fireflies eating the dirt

[@zay_tiggygaming]

"You'll just come after her" After hearing that line, you felt safe, like you made the right decisions. I honestly didn't expect a part 2 after the ending. But the way that part 2 starts is just a slap in the face with the weight of your decision. There are no happy endings in this universe and Joel being killed similar to how he killed Marlene is just great writing. Only thing was Joel never begged because I believe he knew it was coming eventually. "Its called luck, and it is going to run out." I think right after Joel said that in the first game Tess was bitten

[@nafnlaus_vee]

(Spoilers for TLOU2) For what it's worth, it was revealed in TLOU2 that the doctor Joel killed, Abby's dad, was the one who pushed Marlene to perform the surgery on Ellie before waking her up. Marlene was against it at first but he convinced her.

[@The_ScapeGoat]

Retcons don't count. That's the main reason TLOU2 was terrible and why people are so offended by it.

[@mothgames9466]

Can’t wait to see your video on David! Really great take here

[@unknownstranger3646]

38:15 - 38:18 actually she did, sorta. When abby's father told her that ellie had to die to make a cure, she argued comepletly against it. She even asked "if this was your daughter, what would you do?" And before that quote, she insisted that there had to be another way. And when abby's father referred to ellie as "the host", she said "she is a child, not some petri dish". I think that she did want to *not* go through with it. I feel like ellie did mean something important. I also think that it was the last trace of good sense that she had before abby's father snuffed it out. Mabye if she didn't go through all she has, she would have directly said "no. No i will not make this vaccine if it means her death". Mabye things would have turned better

[@jim_jim1674]

Well said. Thank you.

[@patrickazzarella6729]

I'd say Tess also freaked out because she knew she was dying

[@knightwolf1363]

Replaying this game again was amazing I’m glad I wasn’t naive enough to throw some bones towards it because I love the expressions everyone gives really enhance the experience seeing Joel go through a wave of a emotions throughout the whole story was crazy going to play the second one soon

[@chiiiefff8250]

@FatBrett You should do a in depth breakdown about the effect Joel’s death had on Ellie and a in depth breakdown of her conflict with Abbie the whole revenge cycle

[@cloudtx]

Wonderful analysis and I pretty much agree with all your points but I'd like to offer an alternative theory as to why Marlene didn't shoot Joel in the parking garage. As long as he was carrying Ellie, anything could've happened between Marlene firing the bullet and that bullet reaching its destination, that is to say, there was a decent chance Ellie could've been shot. I know that it seems like Marlene has a pretty decent shot at Joel's chest or face but, again, anything could happen to Ellie, not to mention that if she doesn't kill him in one shot she for sure won't have an easy a chance after that. Plus, maybe Marlene didn't trust her aim that much, considering what's at stake. I'm not saying she didn't have any emotional/psychological reasons to avoid shooting Joel, she must likely did, but that's a practical reason why she might have tried to bargain with him, at least until he dropped Ellie safely on the ground.

[@jlev1028]

If anyone doesn't think the Fireflies are equal in morals and competence to the Raiders from the final season of Telltale's TWD, they have no ground to say Joel's actions were wrong. I swear, some people just look at the villains' good intentions and ignore their unjustifiable means.

[@lucastanner548]

I thought you called it a “Overqualified movie”?

[@quickcube2834]

There are no unjustifiably means if the consequence outweighs it, which determince by probability

[@G0DLIKE92]

Not even giving Joel his backpack is a death sentence. Completely ungrateful for Joel and Ellie’s journey. Not letting him see her, waiting til she woke up to explain they have to take her life to save humanity. So many mistakes on the FF side. They caused their own downfall. They picked the wrong man to mess with.

[@Bigpest1090]

Nice video keep up the great work

[@Jenohart]

Great video. When I first saw the ending my first thought was how weird it was they were rushing the operation and how from a scientific perspective, removing her brain would run the risk of killing her strain of the cordyceps and wasting the whole thing. She was much more valuable alive where they could take samples, run tests, etc. There was no rush, as you say. My interpretation at the time was that the Fireflies had turned more into a cult, their holding on to hope had twisted into an obsession that has lead to them ignoring logic & reason and justifying doing terrible things. So I liked the ambiguity of TLOU1's ending, that the Fireflies were clearly villains and terrible people but they were trying to do something good and it wasn't clear if Joel made the right choice. From a thematic standpoint, the ending kinda asks if humanity is even worth saving if this is what the "good" guys have become. Perhaps Joel is saving humanity by protecting the people he cares about rather than making unnecessary sacrifices to an ambiguous "greater good" At the time, I mainly disagreed with people saying that the Fireflies were "the real good guys" and that Joel was the villain in the end. Not recognizing the Fireflies' villainy would be a misrepresentation when as you have shown, the games own portrayal of the Fireflies seems very intentionally portraying them as not the good guys.

[@philipnixon.]

Marlene said to Joel at the end after being clubbed in the head with a gun " Sorry, they didnt know who you were". Werent the fireflies literally all waiting for them to show up?

[@777Rowen]

Love your analysis. Also nice touch with the Zelda Twilight Princess ending boss music at the end.