FETISHIZATION OR LIBERATION? - MLM Popularity in Popular Culture and Fandom.

[@sarahmaria2621]

As a sapphic woman i'm tired of having my favourite shows cancelled and I would love to just have a cute romance series for the wlw.

[@Eline0513]

Warrior nun is coming back with 3 films!!!

[@Kirasfox]

The amount of fight, Earp fans and to do for Wynonna Earp was ridiculous....we couldn't keep that show without the co.pany saying "nah fck that"

[@Slavicowboy]

The Bottoms movie just came out and i havent watched it yet but its apparently so sapphic and cute!!

[@sophiamr4008]

​@Eline0513 THANK GOD many of the fans kept on posting abt it and it eventually was taken by hbo(?) If I recall right

[@exquisitecorpse4917]

L Word had its problems.....so many problems....but it was a sapphic space for a sapphic audience, and nothing in the last ~20 years has really been able to take its place.

[@asterismos5451]

There is a tumblr post that says something along the lines of "fandoms completely ignore main female characters who are developed in the original media while they (the fandoms) simultaneously will make up entire backstories and personalities for that dude who was in the background of that one scene that one time." I agree with your explanations for why mlm shipping became more popular, but I do think this explanation ignores the other factor which is that fandoms are just inclined to misogyny (like any communities in a misogynist society). A lot of this is internalized misogyny but still.

[@obviouslyqueer]

I believe the history of shipping is one of the reasons to why MLM shipping is dominating, but a small part. Obviously misogyny is the answer, but that wouldnt be such a fun video to make or watch haha

[@MinisterioEtrom2024]

Nothing to do with "misogyny" it's just a matter of taste and m/m stories tend to be more thought provoking, w/w sucks for me as I'm not attracted to women.

[@JMTgpro]

@@MinisterioEtrom2024 Beyond an in-depth analysis of the thematic currents of the genre, of which I agree, the most basic understanding remains true. The actual audience of these MlM stories, even though emphasis has been placed on being directed at who is being depicted (Gay/Bi Men); They are still straight women. Especially if we talk about mainstream content (It is estimated that, of the audience that watches Heartstopper, 71% are women). And as discussed in the video, the weight of the excitement of forbidden love and taboo that represents this type of story, added to the reality that, are attracted to men, allows them to orbit towards these stories with greater enthusiasm. The reason why I don't like to reduce it to misogyny is because, at the end of the day, an audience being attracted to a source of desire (Men) in a more intense/taboo/alien context to their body, to be enjoyed. What I've noticed, from lesbian stories in the mainstream, is that, to achieve some of the enthusiasm of the audience, yes, you need that context that creates a strong sense of taboo; either being a period story or through a trope like the "unhappy wife falls in love with her friend" (which is more common than they think). Or, the form most enthusiastically accepted by this same audience (Straight Women); that of the "extreme premise", a "No! It is not a Sapphic story, it is a story of a murderer and a detective obsessing over each other in a game of persecution and intensity that fills them with passion..." Finally, playing devil's advocate, if we know that the main audience of MlM are straight women and we understand all this analysis to understand why, we could see what is the true presentation or use of romance / lesbian characters in stories directed or designed for straight men. Just as experiments and to extrapolate this projection of straight women in gay characters, to straight men in lesbian characters. We find, lonely characters or even broken by the weight of the expectations of their lives (Mindhunter, The Boys, Black Sails, For All Mankind ...) and in the opportunities that are happy characters or at least with ups and downs, they usually have the mixtures of the two points (Taboo + Premise). The sad thing is that, due to this reality, it seems unsustainable a series coming of age about two girls and that, reaches the levels of mainstream experienced by Heartstopper or Young Royals.

[@Imetwurld_]

​​​@@MinisterioEtrom2024fr .this video title rubbed me off in the wrong way. It feels like queer women are jealous of queer men also forgetting how mistreated queer men are by Society ,that's just the sad reality ,gay men are the main target of hate especially for the LGBT community maybe now it as shifted a little bit to trans people but gay is still used as a slur for men .as a straight women I feel gay men get more hate unlike women who love women and I rather just watch two men fall inlove since I'm attracted to men and m|m just comes off as not normalised as w|w .

[@MinisterioEtrom2024]

@@Imetwurld_ yes is true

[@keirokama3925]

the thing that hit me most was the whole notion that m/m can have “simply being gay” as the main storyline, but f/f needs to be part of this other epic narrative that is deemed “more marketable.” You just put into words what I could never quite pin down about the topic

[@Sdir]

Also its really sad with "simply being gay" stories too Because if all creators have to do -- is put two men in any decorations with identity crisis or evil exes or homophobic community -- we get so much similar stories and it is SO boring AAAA I'm a bi man and i would like to have interesting stories, not a ton of struggling very conventionally beautiful teenagers.. So I really wish sapphic stories could be "simply being gay" too, and also i wish mlm stories could have ANY plot outside their gayness aaaaaaaaaa *Of course there are some interesting mlm stories, but it is not the majority

[@showzao7397]

Coming from the perspective of a queer woman (bi/ pan) I think MLM also gives a lot of women the space and freedom of enjoying queer media without having to face their own internalized homophobia or even… shame. The lack of identification with the queer couple by the fact of them being male, reduces possible anxieties that queer women might still have from facing their own personal desires for the female body, while still working as a form of representation by proxy and general themes of self-discovering, coming out, societal acceptance and forming romantic connections.

[@kathryn5631]

this is such a good point!! but I think we should all work towards consuming more wlw media, even if it's difficult to confront our own internalised homophobia at first

[@ellanaa9464]

You're really onto something. I've overcome my internalised homophobia but F/F media feels a lot more personal to me than M/M in many regards.

[@C-S-D.]

this comment! uo on it! your explanation was flawless

[@kaitlynb5467]

That is so interesting because as I person who doesn’t know her identity and still haven’t even date at the ripe age of 18, when I consume smut or fanfics, I ignore wlw especially if they are sexual and it is not because I find them not attractive to me, I just started questioning where I belong in society if I consume them, I am a girl who hangs out with other women/girls in a pretty conservative country but where I will be placed when I started desiring women bodies. Those thoughts stopped me from reaching out more wlw smuts. But I plan to explore them when I leave my country next year

[@priscilasoares6297]

omg i totally agree

[@dinuraiga]

Yes! Thank you for mentioning the destructive straightwashing of the strict Top/Bottom fetish in media. I'm a queer man and have gotten SO frustrated with trying to escape this stereotype, especially in books. There's never a conversation about what the characters like or may want to try, just an assumption based on traditional heteronormative traits that magically proves to be correct. It feels validating knowing that someone can actually see the harm in this.

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you so much for your comment. If one watches several of my videos you quickly learn the top/bottom dichotomy it one of my "favorite" topics to discuss and disect. Thanks for the support!

[@missrebel634]

That's why I hate the Alpha/ Omega type stuff

[@iamangieh]

recently read wolfsong by tj klune and although his writing style wasn't for me, i could appreciate the alpha/alpha dynamic and i think they were verse too 🗣️ tw: age gap, possessiveness

[@yasspanda2559]

Lots of mlm romance book is heteronormative, in way. You can switch out the bottoms with women, and you'd have a straight romance. Not even a mention of prep before sex scenes.

[@shortsismakingmybrainrot]

​@@missrebel634yes. I actually find alpha/omega role reversal or alpha x alpha or omega x omega to be much more interesting. No more problem, and it's kinda like being gay in a world where being gay is normal. Which is trippy af.

[@Artemis1901]

I'm a straight woman completely under the spell of m/m fiction and I've been asking myself a lot WHY. I think I know myself pretty well but for years I've been trying (and failing) to find out why m/m does it for me while neither f/f nor f/m interests me. Thank you for providing some answers and discussing this topic in such a well-researched manner, and from different angles. I think everyone who consumes m/m media should watch this video for more awareness and sensitivity for the subject. Oh and also, I'm furious on behalf of people who enjoyed these sapphic shows that got cancelled despite their HUGE viewership numbers! What hypocrisy!

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you so much for your comment! I'm really glad you enjoyed it.

[@biazacha]

One thing I wish was discussed is how female and male experiences are fundamental to the media we consume. The first time I was catcalled on the street I was 9yo - women have so much of our existence sexualized, and mainstream media is pretty much male gaze galore…. mlm is beyond not being bound by our bodies, but media where women aren’t sexual objects at all and that’s EXACTLY what we need to unwind.

[@somethingwithazinit8324]

Same. Exactly same really.

[@crystellik]

@@biazacha this kind of thinking only contributes to the lank of flf tho. The idea that any female character that gets put in any sexual context is automatically a sexual objectification of the female character scares not only independent heartfelt writers but also just the general businesses like disney and such away from making this kind of relationships, especially keeps them from making it sexual. Jennifers body is probably a good example of this. The movie featured an explicitly sexual female character and no one watched it because of this

[@novxmb.r9867]

what happened to kit is fucking sick and just proof that even though it's better than it was we as a society still put people into boxes even in their own communities

[@ninjakiwigames5418]

This video reminded me of a girl I once knew. She and her friends were shipping guys together (real people shipping, ewww), but then when one of her friend said something like that her ex boyfriend might be bi, she was very dramatically disgusted by it. It was so frustrating to see, and I honestly hope I never see that girl again.

[@mhawang8204]

Unfortunately straight girls like this are quite common. I've met my share in fandoms. It's textbook fetishization. The gay men exist to fulfil their fantasy, while they can be outright homophobic.

[@rolinti9146]

As a gay man i've never been able to watch these types of shows without feeling extremely uncomfortable and this video starts a brilliant and important conversation breaking those feelings down that i'm sure a lot of people share.

[@deinodinosuchus]

thank you!! i’m a queer guy (transmasc) i’m so frustrated with how fetishized mlm relationships have become in the popular media and it’s become so normalized as well

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you so much!

[@SarkanaNightSong]

I'm a lesbian and I just wanted to say thank for talking about this! I sometimes feel somewhat starved for content - in general, and especially in media, but also on youtube like video essays talking about lesbophobia or lesbian experiences in general. There is just so little out there for and about us that it feels so refreshing to finally hear someone talk about it. Also this is the first time I have heard someone critique verily bitchie's videos - I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on that.

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank YOU! 💕 if you haven't watched my Heartstopper video I recommend that, it's basically a whole video-respons to Verilys video.

[@alanamccool7409]

You are right, it is because society thinks any sapphic story is a chick flick and not serious, unless it is some kind of genre piece. Only romances with men can be serious in this culture.

[@cityofnumbersix]

I remember one of the biggest red flags when it came to blatant misogyny within a fandom was within the Raven Cycle fandom when I witnessed the onslaught of hatred towards the character Blue-where people would refer to her as annoying, intolerable and a bitch, whilst on the flip side, Adam, a bisexual make character, who in every discernible way is Blue’s male adjacent in personality (Adam’s actually way worse not going to lie, but both their personalities are contextualised and it’s actually what makes them good friends and realistic, complex characters), was praised by the fandom for the simple fact that he’s bisexual and male. Genuinely such an embarrassing thing to witness. People’s minds have been so grotesquely poisoned to a point that it’s terrifying. We need to actively do so much better at recognising our own subconscious conditioning.

[@obviouslyqueer]

Ghahh!! Did you write this comment because you've seen I'm a die hard TRC-fan? This is very true though, and especially people coming for her as a "bad feminist", which is sooo unfair. She's a real, flawed character just like Adam and Ronan. Everyone is problematic in TRC and that's the beauty of it. I do think though the fandom has turned around (the last two years or so) regarding Blue, and she's getting a lot more love nowadays. But I've thought about the misogyny in the fandom lately in regards to the Dreamer Trilogy. Have you read it? The character of Hennessy - her destructive tendencies, addiction, love for race cars and queerness - are so close to Kavinskys ( but in my opinion better written), but the fandom is OBSESSED with Kavinsky and give Hennessey the bare minimum. That is nothing but straight up internalized misogyny.

[@cherrylovepotionAnira]

I didn't know why some people hate Blue, I really like how the writer turned Adam and Blue friend's bc i really hate when you cannot put a female and male without the romantic tension, and for me, personaly her actual partner was a little annoying but just in the two first book, I haven't finished the saga so I don't know how her boyfriend character was developed 😅

[@leo-c9c1n]

​@@obviouslyqueerare round in lgbt have hiper fantasy and sexual straight idea and based romance in a lgbt romance is a copy of straight romance don't a romance lgbt real

[@raan2115]

I feel like no one ever talks about the lesbophobia against lesbians from every other women ever...

[@sumadre101]

yeah....its so bad.......

[@Imetwurld_]

Are straight women lesbophobic ? I think lesbophobic straight women are usually just homophobic ( they usually don't like homosexuality in general ) maybe just a very little of them like very little are bias like some straight men .

[@thaliaprincess3683]

this!!!! like there's a reason why you see so many straight girls wanted to have "the gay bestfriend" or tolerate gay men to a certain degree because of their shared attraction towards men & how it is in some ways impact their life & personality so they somehow form some type of solidarity i suppose. but they dont have larger capacity to relate to lesbians because of they immediately assume we're disgusting creeps, just like any straight men they have met & dated in their life you know what i mean? so they distance themselves from us without even wanting to understand what it feels like to love women as a woman/non-binary person. idk i'm just rambling but yeah lmao

[@domdomdominique]

Hear, hear! Lesbian spaces are scarce these days.

[@FirstnameLastname-gr5kb]

I've not yet encountered a lesbophobic otherwise queer woman.

[@PrincessNana08]

Misogyny is rooted in every community even the queer ones and it kills me.

[@ruru4983]

Yeah

[@SprinkleMyDoughnuts]

Yep, it's therefore especially bad for us lesbians since we are the only group who's sexuality and experiences dont Center around men and I witnessed first hand how disgusting the lgbtq community can react to this.

[@georgieporgie3118]

As a queer woman (bi/pan) I consume a lot of MLM media. I honestly think the reason I find these stories so captivating is the way they tend to subvert traditional notions of masculinity, or rather show a broader spectrum of forms of masculinity. In heteronormative romance its so rare to see men being vulnerable, sweet, tender, intimate - with their female partner or their friends - so its very refreshing and very attractive to see men behaving in this way in MLM romance. The appeal isn't necessarilly that it is two men, but that you are seeing men be vulnerable and intimate in a way that you wish men you dated would be with you (maybe that's just me? 🤷), or just wish all men could be in general (because the world would be a much better place, right?) There is something very sexy about a man who is comfortable being vulnerable with you. At the same time there is something very hot about seeing masculine energy crash up against masculine energy 🔥 And the energy of two attractive men with the capacity for vulnerability and tenderness... Erm, yes please! I sometimes wish I was a gay man so I could experience being with a guy who falls outside of the traditional masculine norms and is able to express themselves more freely and be more comfortable in their vulnerability. Can anyone else relate?

[@Imetwurld_]

So true ! I'm a straight woman and you just explained everything I was thinking .I think that's y I prefer m|m shows better than W|W shows. Its not because I might not like lesbians ( it's called lgbt for a reason ,they are a team) but they is just this sexiness about a man being vulnerable and affectionate towards other men ( which most straight men lack ).it's so refreshing to watch it in queer men .

[@Dora-fi4lo]

omg yes! 100% agree with every single word

[@feyetho9524]

OMG this is exactly how I feel (I'm also bi too). Your last point about wanted to be in their shoes? So real. I must admit though that from conversations with my gay friends, real gay relationships are rarely as sweet and emotional as they are in these books. Not that they don't want it to be that way, but toxic masculinity and societal expectations make it hard to be vulnerable, even with another gay man. I must say that I got very lucky (did not think it was even possible) and the guy that I am dating is extremely emotionally intelligent and feels comfortable being very open with me (he cries too) but not in an clingy or obsessive way. And yes, the world would be better if there were more people like him.

[@DoubleBlack2.0]

10000 %!!!

[@stepmaster9988]

Yes the intimacy is what is compelling and attractive to everyone as well as non-hegemonic masculinity being viewed as viable as desirable, rather than the sex on its own otherwise we’d be watching ….. And when it’s the sex, again it’s the intimacy between them that makes the sex sexy 💕

[@Suited_Nat]

As a lesbian myself, it always sucks to see my sexuality either thrown aside or sexualized by men. And yes, I read MM when I was figuring out myself, but I realized, that was my projection of my feelings for other women. And in terms of ships/pairings, the ones I felt most comfortable with reading was a ship of two best friends.

[@soullessangel207]

I feel called out cuz I think I fetishise a bit mlm relationships not in an intentionally harmful way it's just my sexuality. it's upsetting that men do that sometimes excessively to lesbian relationships, I think the attraction itself to the relationship we can't control but at least we can control our attitudes to be better and be aware of how it's affecting people.

[@bubbles4897]

@@soullessangel207 how about stop being weird?

[@soullessangel207]

@@bubbles4897 that's like saying stop being straight. I don't think I can. however I can actually stop consuming any gay media which is not something I'm exactly willing to do. maybe in the future. still it's not weird to watch actors in a movie pr series because I enjoy it. very weird of you saying that and no I don't fetishise mm anymore, I'm not a teen.

[@OzyEdoTorrealba]

My only issue with your first part of the argument is that you forgot the part where Queer Coding was real. Many (gay) writers and producers where unable to include gay men in their stories, therefore only clues, touches and small key behaviours were put in the finished products. And that happened for years before ships became a thing.

[@obviouslyqueer]

You are absolutely right! I speak a lot of queer coding in other videos, which is a huge and important part of queer media history (and present day!).

[@valemancy1184]

Yes, and she also mentioned that in the past there were no female characters at all or barely in tv shows. Guess how many were even interacting together or got a chance of being queer coded?

[@poloponysk158]

As a gay cis male I very much agree with your points here. I also find a lot of MM written with heteronormative presentations of top/bottom. I agree its really boring when the second you read a character's description its almost guaranteed that it will automatically indicate if they are a bottom or a top without actually stating if they are a top, bottom, or rarely a switch/vers. I have pointed out that in the real queer male world, we actually ask our sexual partner their sexual role preferences, even in our dating/hookup apps indicate top, vers, bottom, or side. When I point this out i often get negative feedback, sometimes intensely negative feedback. Your point of internalized misogyny as a reason many women consume MM fiction is something I've never thought of; very interesting.

[@MidnightEkaki]

I do wanna mention in the queer male community there is a lot of problems with men stereotyping other men too i feel like its a problem with everyone tbh. Im a bi trans dude who prefers to top but prefers more masculine bodies to twinks and that dynamic seems to be upsetting for many.

[@clonetrooper1998]

a lot of people fail to realize that just because a relationship involves queer people doesn't automatically mean that the relationship itself isn't bound/limited by heteronormative rules and expectations

[@houndermagnum5918]

as a lesbian, it's honestly so deeply demoralising to see how people (even lesbians and people who aren't attracted to men) get so invested in m/m pairings while not giving any women a second thought. you people could wring yaoi out of a stone.

[@obviouslyqueer]

That last sentence is so fkn true 😭 the m/m ships I've seen are mental

[@vickyvansane5092]

This is so true ... even my girlfriend prefers m/m ships. It sounds crazy, but sometimes this makes me really sad.. especially after shows like Warrior Nun got cancelled ...

[@pj19-19]

This is so needed. Personally i started quenstioning my attraction towards women because of feeling drawn towards content featuring male ships, but i think its important, to acknowledge how difficult it is to escape the need to please a male/hetero -perspective, even if your not attracted to them. It lies deep in us and the structure our society is build on and the way we understand sex and sexuality even without a man in sight.

[@zodfanza]

Lol I clicked on this thinking this was going to be about how Multi Level Marketing insidiously scams people through popular culture marketing and I am so happy it was this instead! 🏳‍🌈💜

[@annaezhova2477]

Lol I literally saw the thumbnail and my first thought was "wait, there's a multi level marketing trend in media?"

[@fleuriannn]

omg i literally JUST commented about the exact same thing 😭💀

[@obviouslyqueer]

Hahah yeah the three of you are not alone 😭 my favorite though was someone who thought it would be about "marxism, leninism,maoism"

[@thaliawalia]

I found this at the perfect time!! I was just ranting about this last night, but based more on my personal theories (like straight women enjoying m/m romance, etc), so it's great to have found this incredibly in-depth and research essay. I'm a queer woman and in my teen years used tumblr, but never really shipped m/m. I'm finally finding and reading some f/f romance books and shows and it has been so rewarding and refreshing, but it's been frustrating to watch them get cancelled or be under-appreciated. One of my favorite shows, Black Sails, has really complex and interesting depictions of queer female characters and relationships, with one of the main love stories being between two women. However, this relationship gets way less attention and analysis than the main m/m ship. I'm going to share this vid with everyone I can!

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you so much! That makes me so glad. I haven't watch Black Sails, but I've seen the MLM couple all over the internet. Didn't know it featured a WLW also. Says a lot haha. Thank you again for the nice words and sharing the video 💕

[@MidnightEkaki]

I sure hate the multi-level marketing trend

[@aragotodragons8848]

The kpop world figured out years ago that by making the idols do fan service with each other (hugging/kissing/teasing) the fan girls will spend more time (and money) on them. The western film world is figuring this out too. The main attraction point of this all is remaining AVAILABLE. A hot young man, playing a gay character, is safe. No love dovey with a other female co star, and outside of the movie in real life, he remains “straight” and available.

[@jp-no5hd]

It's really relieving to hear someone finally speaking about heteronormativity in queer relationships. As a gay man who is seriously only attracted to the inverse execution of straightnormative roles sexually (in other words: "I always like it the other way around") in the same way most people are attracted to the usual form, there's nothing I suffer more daily than having to deal with heteronormativity, the struggle is constant. I've always said that heartstopper is so heterocentric and made for straight women's entertainment because it has all these dichotomic elements, like the physical differences, the fact nick plays rugby and, jesus… nick being the color blue and charlie being yellow… I think it's a behavior that is really common among straight people, to constantly state how this system is "natural" and, in a way, "meant to be", like there was this strong, godlike force of nature that gave certain groups a mission to accomplish and developed them based on it, as if being small sized was a sign of mother nature assigning you the role of being submissive because it has the power of stating that straight people's idea of sexuality has always been right or real; as we grow up, we are taught the whole animal kingdom and plants and every organism goes by the same sexual rules but it's all a coping mechanism for straight people (in this case) to have an argument to convince themselves that their fantasy is justifiable taken into account sexuality has almost always been a taboo in our culture, but I still don't believe that's the only reason, I think the main origin of the persistence of our sexuality in general as human beings (and why it's impossible to satiate) is our desire to get told "you're right, what you believed in was real", to have a figure that represents the idea we have of what sexuality as a fundament that allows us to slightly get relieved of our biggest insecurity: to have our desired idea of sex being unreal and unreachable. That's way the concept of nature was made up, and also why us LGBT+ people resort to representation and figures in media, to feel real, existent and get to experience that pleasure for fucking once!!! I know that, phylosophically speaking, it's all a fantasy in the end, for all of us humans, but yeah straight people have enough already let us enjoy sexuality in our way the way yall have for centuries jesus christ

[@AnxietyRat]

Yeah, there definitely are straight couples who differ than what is the norm sexually... Top and bottom wise specifically... Those couples are usually within the kink community and that community and the gay community has significant amount of overlap anyways.... But yeah those straight people do exist out there it just isn't really talked about in the media at all which I think is also a shame to be honest, as a kinda kinky lesbian who also finds powerful women to be attractive... I would absolutely love see more then just the stereotypical big strong tall dominant man and small tiny submissive women... Which is what gay relationships are filtered through... I've absolutely also seen it in WLW content I've consumed... Where they play into these stereotypes that do exist in real life... But I wouldn't say that they're common, IMO. Also I do want to point out that the colour thing in Heartstopper where Nick is represented as blue and Charlie's represented as yellow is a show only thing.... The comics don't get coloured except for special little side comics Alice draws for us. So yeah that colour thing is just like an artistic show thing that they decided to do becausen the crew is just a bunch of artistic people... So I'm not surprised that they did cute colour symbolism.... it's not a thing in the comics cuz the comics don't actually have colour lol. But yeah I can agree that the large rugby player boyfriend and very petite sassy boyfriend is a bit stereotypical... But to be fair, Nick and Charlie originally were side characters. I don't think it's super duper uncommon for side characters to sometimes be more stereotypical then your main character is. Alice wrote a book called Solitaire that is from Tori's perspective, Charlie's sister ... And Nick and Charlie are kind of just vaguely mentioned as being in a relationship in that book. But then Alice started thinking about how those two might have actually gotten together and so they wrote two short stories in their perspectives... And still really felt the itch to fully flesh out exactly how they got together and didn't think that writing more novels about them was the right option for them to go with. And so they decided to make a webcomic about it.... So yeah I think that THAT might be why the characters are a little bit stereotypical in that way... Because they started out of side characters which USUALLY are more stereotypical type people. 🤷‍♀️ But maybe that's just a bullshit excuse that I made for myself because I do genuinely love the story... it gives my heart so much warmth and gives me so much hope for the future generation of lgbtq people. They will have this as a piece of media that exists and I didn't have that when I was growing up. I'm around Alice's age and I'm so glad that they decided to make the story. Also in regards to sex positions lining up in regards to the stereotype for Nick and Charlie... Alice hasn't gone into detail about that type of content because it's not the type of content that they want to go into... which is valid... So yeah we don't know how things regarding that for that couple... And they are teenagers, ya know? They don't NEED to figure that out right now. It's only VERY recently in the webcomic that Alice has actually referenced, vaguely, that they had sex. And it is also vaguely mentioned in the Nick and Charlie Novella a couple times.... But again super vague no real details given so...who knows!

[@missrebel634]

What’s the significance of the color blue and yellow in Nick and Charlie?

[@MidnightEkaki]

I mean i can tell Heartstopper is made by women and aimed at women but a lot of queer guys also enjoy it and many like the physical difference thing of twink & jock stereotype. Im personally not fond of it but idk i dont find the show that problematic

[@AnxietyRat]

@@MidnightEkaki You'd be incorrect in assuming that this show and comic were "made by women for women" 1. The author is not a woman. Alice is non-binary. 2. I don't think it's true that Alice's target demographic is women. There's a massive massive LGBTQ+ fanbase in the webcomics. Are there are also some straight women? Sure. You can't really avoid them with MLM... they will find it... but I really don't think Alice is aiming to write for straight women... I think Alice is writing for the lgbtq + community, which they are a part of. They've been pretty open this in the description sections of the webcomic. Also a massive amount of the crew that works on this show is lgbtq+. You could kind of see that in Toby Donovan's vlogs that he posted after season 1... Including the director who is a gay man. A lot of MLM content is made for women by women. But Heartstopper is NOT an example of such a situation.

[@perseusfateprototype]

I also want to ask like someone above me did, what's the problem with blue and yellow?

[@jomaq9233]

When it comes to media aimed towards children, there seems to be the opposite problem, where WLW romances seem to be more common, and MLM ones are pushed aside (or I guess, more likely, heavily neutered by the companies)

[@stress395]

I'd argue not even media targeted towards children necessarily, but rather animation as a whole. Arcane? Cait/vi vi. Owl house? Amity/luz. Harley quinn? Posion ivy/Harley. Shera? Catradora + so much more. I could go on and on about animated wlw couples, and not all are aimed only at children. It's fascinating how in live action wlw is neglected, but animation is where the opposite happens with mlm.

[@susanjoyce4244]

@@stress395was literally just saying this

[@restingsadface]

I always felt that as a very intersectional person, if I ever wanted to see sapphic relationships on screen that are diverse, healthy, cute, non-male gazey, not hyper-fetishized way, I would have to write it myself. it’s like after years of being queer-baited over and over again by mainstream movies and tv, you start to feel like movies and tv will never have your back on stuff like this, so you may as well never get your hopes up type thing. I’m 20 rn and it honestly makes me really sad to see that even in 2023, most queer kids of today are similarly as deprived of representation as I was when I was 12 and discovering myself and shit. and that sucks

[@krystleboss8573]

That’s just it, isn’t it? I’m tired of watching wlw shows which are clearly made for and from the male gaze (even though I will because I want to support all queer content)

[@julieregalado6086]

@@krystleboss8573 Have you watched ANNE+ (Holland) ? Curious what you think

[@sophiejones8632]

Have you tried watching the Owl House? There's a sapphic relationship in it that is genuinely one of the best I've seen

[@luvvhans]

as a straight woman who grew up with fandom and mlm shipping and that just mindlessly consumed gay content for a long time, i really appreciate videos like this and the queer perspective :) well researched and great points, keep going !!

[@starisrandom2016]

Hey! Just wanted to ask if that's a drawing of Tidal by Fiona Apple in your pfp? If so, the character holding it has epic taste in music (⁠ ⁠´⁠◡⁠‿⁠ゝ⁠◡⁠`⁠)

[@carriesnaps3508]

For the longest time, I ignorantly thought it was a bit ""weird"" that so many of the popular MLM stories are written and consumed by (mostly) women. Don't get me wrong, in the process of discovering my own sexuality, I obviously consumed a bit of media centered around mlm. But finding out their IMMENSE popularity even among overtly queer women was bewildering.😅Due to this, I often feel bad whenever a new MLM film/show make headlines and I just roll my eyes. It just doesn't do anything for me as a sapphic who much prefer consuming WLW content - despite their lack of popularity.

[@PrincessNana08]

The comments here only speak of why they enjoy mlm media but doesn't speak anything about wlw media and that also speaks a lot. Like the question isn't why you enjoy mlm. It's a given that there would be something to enjoy there or else it wouldn't be so overwhelmingly popular. The question is the difference in attention and popularity between mlm and wlw. To give clarification, in fandom fanfiction in ao3, there is always a pattern. The top ones would mlm, second is wlm and the least written are always wlw (unless the show or book is already about wlw)

[@sarahm.5000]

This is so interesting because it made me realize that I've watched a lot of the mlm shows and hardly knew about any of the wlw shows. Also I'd love to hear your thoughts about the other representation/characters in heartstopper

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thanks for the comment! I think this is the situation for a lot of people. You can't escape the mm ones but have to actively search for the FF ones. Loved Heartstopper, and the side characters. Might do a video around season 2!

[@erosheartache2398]

Seriously you deserve all the views. This is an excellent analysis. I'm so glad the algorithm recommended your channel.

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you so much, that makes me so glad to hear!

[@VivekPatel-ze6jy]

The slash fanfics that subvert the hetero tropes and power dynamics are my favourites by far. Unfortunately, even on ao3 the most kudosed fics still seem to fall into heavily stereotypical sex roles And as a gay guy, there's nothing more realistic or validating than switches in fic who just exist for themselves and not to act out a fantasy version of a gay relationship just to be cute

[@chumsnotreal]

i clicked on this video cus I thought it was gonna talk about multi level marketing schemes in fandoms and I was like "huh never heard of that but I wouldn't put it past em" 😭😭

[@obviouslyqueer]

Hahaha fandoms do be up to anything

[@anangelstavern]

I'm so glad someone is talking about this, I'm so happy that mlm is getting more attention, but I want a show about two girls that are actually the main characters and not side characters

[@obviouslyqueer]

Right! Thank you so much for the comment and support 💞

[@l.franciscobattista2559]

I really did just read Multi Level Marketing and was extremely intrigued by the possibility of corporatist infiltration in fandom spaces. This will suffice.

[@obviouslyqueer]

Hahah maybe I will have to do that video too after all of this confusion

[@asterismos5451]

As I understand it First Kill got cancelled because of a low finished rate, whereas Heartstopper did get finished far more despite being started less.

[@asterismos5451]

That was a really interesting point though about wlw being fantasy vs. mlm being romance. I guess I mostly get my queer rep through books and I get a pretty even divide between mlm and wlw in both fantasy and romance through that. Though I think the trend persists in books as well, now I think of it.

[@asterismos5451]

I think queer books market themselves more towards women than men so the wlw being fantasy may be due to a tendency of traiditonal fantasy to have one woman, max, and so the follow-up trend became for women fantasy writers to write hashtag strong female characters and they'd have their sideplot romances with whatever hot boy was present. So if the main romance is between two men in a fantasy novel, suddenly you've fallen back on the classic erasure of women in fantasy. Contrast this with the romance genre, traditionally dismissed as only for women (as is any sort of gooey interpretation of love in general). So it feels sort of subversive to write about men falling in love, sort of forcing an examination of apathetic masculinity and acknowledging how romance and gooey love aren't just for women. Focussing on a woman falling in love falls in line with the original assumption that gooey love and romance novels are all about and for women. I do think this is stupid of course and I find wlw romance subversive still due to the nature of it not being heteronormative.

[@PARADOXsquared]

It got cancelled while I was watching it, so they sure didn't wait that long to decide that not enough people wanted it 😭

[@twobluestripes]

@@asterismos5451this is very insightful and I think I agree this might be the reason… something feels a little more subversive of existing gender tropes, therefore a teeny little more exciting, and might be more likely to get published, get bought/read, get optioned and made, and get viewers loving it?

[@fallenwarlock2418]

Yes, according to First Kill’s showrunner, the show was cancelled because of low completion rates. Later, an European company released some data saying that the show had less than 50% of completion rates, similar to the Resident Evil show, while Heartstopper had more than 50%. It’s known that Netflix mainly cares about the completion rates during the first 28 days of a TV show. Neil Gaiman was basically begging on Twitter for people to watch Sandman because of this and Everything Sucks was cancelled because a lot of people didn’t even bother to finish the first episode (according to Netflix). We also can’t ignore that First Kill had a lot of CGI (although it was pretty bad) and was produced by Netflix US, while Heartstopper most likely had a lower budget and was produced by Netflix UK. First Kill was rated TV-MA while Heartstopper literally competes with Disney shows at the Children’s and Family Emmy Awards. Comparing both shows simply does not make any sense and saying something like “since First Kill had more hours watched than Heartstopper, it was a bigger success” ignores all the factors that are taken into consideration for a show’s renewal. It was never solely about hours watched. Part of the reason why SAG and WGA are on strike is because streaming services aren’t transparent about their numbers, they only show us what they want us to know. They show us the amount of hours watched because it makes Netflix looks good, the company looks transparent, honest and, more importantly, successful, because their original shows had thousands of hours watched

[@irene7558]

Loved this video! I feel like it’s so refreshing to see people bringing up this or at least critiquing it to a certain degree, because it’s gotten HUGE and I only see people normalising it/riding this wave (especially in fandom culture). And while I understand the root of this obsession with mlm couples, it’s a bit frustrating to see it becoming the norm and seeing people just ship ANY man with another man. It’s a big big topic and it gets talked about waay less than it should imo (because again, a lot of people aren’t critical about it bc they just love the rush and excitement the gay shipping gives them), but yeah!! This video was great and I love your honesty and directness in speaking about such controversial topics

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you so much! :') 💞

[@NyikoDoris]

Sapphic shows have to be prestige tv with writing comparable to Jane Austen, directing and cinematography by Steven Spielberg or Christopher Nolan and acting on the caliber of Viola Davis and Meryl Streep and EVEN THEN they’d get cancelled while mlm shows can be tropey as they want and it’ll get 25 seasons and all of the media (both publications and social) fawning over it. It’s misogyny, sometimes racism and just plain hate for anytime there’s a leading sapphic couple

[@houndermagnum5918]

EXACTLY. it's so damn difficult to make people care about women😭 even harder to make them care about sapphics with even a fraction of the amount of investment they give m/m relationships

[@mauritious1]

I absolutely agree!! Also when they cancelled 'A league of their own' it broke my heart! You're absolutely right.. there's always have to be a bigger plot and gimmicks while portraying sapphic content while MM content can just be men being gay!

[@obviouslyqueer]

Yeah it sucked with A League of their Own. I heard it was because of the strike? Which I guess it's a valid reason but still. And thank you for the comment!

[@Zคภ-c1o]

I've known I was bisexual since I was 10 or something, and I consumed a lot of m/m media (including fanfics) that I started to see some pattern on why, lets say, naruto and sasuke is shipped way more than sasuke and sakura. Writing friendships are taken more seriously than writing romance. A lot of the times good media like that don't include female characters independent from male ones. Men always play a big role in their character writing, and that makes a female character BAD. Like, written terribly. When you see the female character appear on screen, even if shes from the main cast, you KNOW who shes going to have a romantic/sexual relationship with. Thats...boring. Nothing capturing or deep about the relationship at all. You just watch it happen like its some ritual that writers have to do... Circling back to fanfics, nobody wants to write about a character they don't care about. Friendships, usually between men (because they wont end up falling in love theyre straight) are written in a much more complex manner. It needs to stand out because it is a vital part of their story, but the characters themselves are "character" enough to stand seperated from their counterpart. Their relationship is deeper, depends on so much more than just romantic/sexual attraction. It is flexible to those who want to read the relationship any way they want. Also, both sides of he relationship are interesting! That, right there, is material for fanfic writers. Which is something that really drove m/m out of the park.

[@LF-mg3nx]

Love this video, and want to add that maybe another reason we don"t see as much wlw spicy romances is that often there is a level of assertiveness required for things to get spicy, which I think we are often not very comfortable with when it comes from women or femme presenting people. A lot of the lesbian period dramas mentioned have love scenes that are relatively tame or soft and I'm not criticising that because it's nice that it exists but it would be incorrect to pretend as if this is the only way lesbians enchage in sex. At the end of the day it always comes back to patriarchy and our inability to see women as fully fleshed-out human beings.

[@ghostwriter3493]

This is probably most nuanced,well formulated, informed, fact based analysis of this topic I enjoyed this video so so much thank you a thousand times.

[@obviouslyqueer]

Oh thank YOU, that means a lot 💞

[@BBS-dl1lt]

As a gay man, i really have no problem with the majority of these examples. Queerbaiting can feel frustrating, but as an insider in the tv writer's industry, it's honestly not meant to be nefarious in any way. A lot of shows aim to include more blatantly gay stories, but find themselves blocked by marketability. Years back I was working on the Legend of Korra writer's team very early in my career. The show itself was written fully years before the first season was even produced. Asami and Korra were always meant to end up together and if you pay attention, hints to that were dropped throughout multiple seasons, particularly season 2 onwards. The decision to rewrite it as more of a vague insinuation was ultimately reached when marketing informed us that Saudi Arabia and a number of other foreign stations would not be purchasing the series if it included a queer romance. The product we ended up releasing was still pushing the envelope honestly. It can feel frustrating to many fans to see a vague, unfulfilled connection between the two, but ultimately we thought that was better than arbitrarily rewriting her character to end up with one of her male companions. Plus, the possible interpretation that she ended up alone and just maintained amazing friendships was also an ending we were happy with. This is the only project i've worked on directly that involved this conundrum, but I was also aware of similar issues happening with Voltron. Two male protagonists were originally storyboarded to end up together, but foreign interests blocked that. A lot of passionate and a lot of queer writers work on these projects and want to include all the representation they possibly can, but the decision is ultimately out of our hands. If you'd rather the gay undertones not be included at all, that's a fair argument, but personally I like including the nod to what our original vision for story would have been. As for being a consumer of gay media, I can firmly say that I appreciate any content we can get. I thoroughly enjoyed Red, White, and Royal Blue. I don't care if straight women also enjoy the product. As a gay man, it means a lot to me seeing characters I can resonate with on screen. It means a lot seeing the troubles wholly unique to gay people being navigated and solved. My hope for the future is to have more gay representation outside of only queer love stories or coming of age stories, but for now I am extremely happy with the increased quantity in media that related directly to me and my identity.

[@EmyN]

And the fandom can take from there! Furthering the couple's relationship with fanfiction and fanart

[@sonjathewitch5266]

This comment is heaven

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you for your comment! So interesting to hear about your insight in Legend of Korra. Queer subtext/queer coding is a very valid and important part of queer media, both today and historically. And as you say, sometimes the only way to do it. I believe that's better than nothing, especially for the queers and for the media in countries where it otherwise would have been banned. I don't think that many people are bothered by straight women enjoying media with MLM, but more the consequences of it being made for them. I see that potentially can make the path for other representation (gnc-relationships as butch for butch and twink for twink, older lesbians, non-binary main characters, you GET IT) much smaller. That these shows are getting made is no problem per se, and I enjoy the majority of them. But there is so many of them that it's interesting to see what consequences that might come with (positive and negative!) Again, thank you for your thoughts!

[@BBS-dl1lt]

@@obviouslyqueer I’m likely too much of a millennial to have the same perspective as younger queer people, but I do find some of the stuff you’re saying here a little nonsensical and nitpicky. Films and television don’t need to show every possible permutation of queer love. If you’re going down that rabbit hole, there’s under representation for the majority of dynamics between straight couples as well. “Twink, butch” it’s all a bit irrelevant. Your general vibe and look shouldn’t be such a central piece of your personality that you need to see twinks on screen to feel validated. Your role in the bedroom should not be some vital component of your identity. Love is love and that’s what the goal is for us to convey. Besides those heartstopper boys are twinks if ever I saw one.

[@luancosta3630]

@@BBS-dl1lt I'm sorry but I think you're missing the point. The thing you said about those characteristics not being the central part of your personality is the whole point, actually. The fact that the media industry is using these characteristics as a way of knowing right away who's top and who's bottom is damaging, and what the person from the video is trying to say is that different types of people are able to integrate a couple besides the buffed/twink couple that is being marketed in media. Basically, people assume big guys (who are obviously tops) can only date twinks (who are obviosuly bottoms) and the real point is that this is unreal. There are a lot of different dinamics than that one.

[@chuck_isnt_real]

SO WELL SAID this is great!! also the top-bottom dichotomy is so fucking frustrating- being told “oh you seem like a bottom” THE SECOND I CAME OUT?! at 13?!!!

[@ruru4983]

WHAT OMG

[@obviouslyqueer]

Oh that's f*cked up, I'm sorry that happened to you but unfortunately not surprised

[@TheSassyLibraryFox]

I just love your videos because you never shy away from addressing controversial and difficult topics. It makes me so sad to see that a lot of sapphic shows are cancelled even though they get a lot of views. Also I think one of the many reasons women ship m/m ships is because they are written well?! For some reason the f/f ships never persuade me. There aren't enough f/f books on the market and the ones that are always seem to lack the sincerity, depth and urge I read in m/m books. You're definitely onto something when you say that it's hard to write believable relationships between women because female relationships are automatically more intimate and it's hard to see the signs. What they did to Kit Connor was so wrong and it made me very sad. Just because he was out with a woman doesn't make him straight. It shows how many people still don't believe that you can be bisexual. =(

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you so much! Agree, i do think a lot of it is just... internalized misogyny - like the same story WOULD be liked better and be huge in fandoms if it where men, unfortunately. But ff and mm are also written differently, like I want my romances to be dark, destructive and raw. Which ARE more common in mm. I would love a ff story about a criminal woman with internalized homophobia but where is that??

[@kathryn5631]

there are a lot of good f/f books out there but I agree it is hard to find them because they don't often reach the mainstream popularity of m/m ones

[@MandarineKida]

I love well written books and it has been a struggle for me to find good sapphic ones as well but I do recommend the Burning Kingdoms series by Tasha Suri the writing is wonderful, should you be interested

[@TheSassyLibraryFox]

@@MandarineKida Thank you so much for the rec! I'll look it up! 😊

[@ninjakiwigames5418]

I remember once I heard mlm used as "multi level marketing" and at first I thought they meant "men loving men", today I thought this was a video about multi level marketing.

[@obviouslyqueer]

It's not easy haha

[@Person-zx9rb]

Speaking as a lesbian, I used to be quite consumed with mlm media and shipping. Was a diehard byler shipper I hate to admit. But I've found that as I have come to understand my identity more that I am so uninterested in mlm stories - I have no attraction or attachment to men in any way so I just find it boring. It's very interesting to me how things like heartstopper, call me by your name, young royals, red white and royal blue etc. etc. are so popular in the mainstream media and I'm intrigued to see where this "mlm trend" goes in the future. Very interesting video, you've got yourself a new follower.

[@obviouslyqueer]

Haha no shame, we all go through different periods, some stick around and some don't. Thank you so much! Happy to have you here!

[@Chanelle208]

Same here. I watch these shows and enjoy them but don't really get that giggly (I WANT TO SCREAM) feeling that I would get if I were watching a lesbian show.

[@yeetyeet1655]

This is going to sound so weird but I’m a retransitioned trans man who’s obsessed with f/f media and the point about being detached from your own body really resonated with me. M/M romance scares me a bit, I think. Because I transitioned young, I was seen though out my teenage years as The Gay Guy, and I think that kind of does something to your self esteem. Part of why I detransitioned was because I wanted the comfort of my attraction to men not being seen as weird, predatory, or something people could make fun of. F/f media draws me in because I feel like they’re freer to fall in love and express their sexualities and not be boxed in and scrutinized constantly. A hard part of retransitioning was accidentally falling back into that same place where I felt scrutinized for my sexuality in ways that I thought queer women didn’t. Obviously, talking to my friends, queer women face their own scrutinies. But in media, if a girl is in love with her best friend and she wants to kiss her, that’s normalized. If girls get a crush on a cool older girl at school, that’s normalized. They aren’t punchlines the way I felt like a punchline. Just. Thank you for this, you’re great. Keep doing what you’re doing.

[@feyetho9524]

I've been looking for a video like this for years. So many of my friends (of all genders) ask me why gay romances are so popular nowadays (I keep recommending them one after another) and I've had to come up with my own theories. I'm glad to know you agree with a lot of them but most of this video pointed out things that I had never thought of before but make perfect sense. I have now sent multiple people links to this video, including my mother XD

[@obviouslyqueer]

Omg thanks!! I'm so glad you enjoyed it (and shared it!) and I love that you shared with your mum! I share all kind of stuff with my mum, like yeah... No limits tbh haha

[@onlycanbeoneofme]

I'm 2 mins into the video and LOVE IT - I would say the reason is Hetero or Queer curious women who drive the MM fanbase 100% - gay men like myself find it interesting and liberating but the 'fandom' is being driven by hetero/queer curious women evidenced by the popularity of straight 'bi' women who are writing gay or 'MM' romance novels with huge popularity - very few genuine gay male voices in these spaces

[@usaskjock]

Just wanted to say I REALLY enjoyed your discussion on this topic. You conveyed an incredibly informative and comprehensive point of view and your spoken word was immensely interesting throughout.

[@obviouslyqueer]

Oh god, thank you so much! 💞

[@Lara-mx4cd]

Not the Way I was soo intrigued to hear your point about Multi Level Marketing in popular culture 😂

[@aaliyah8471]

I saw this video pop up a few months ago and then I refreshed and lost it.... I found it finally after watching another video of yours!! Loved it and you made great points!! I'm a bi girlie pearly who enjoys both gay and sapphic media, so this was wonderful. I grew up reading SO MUCH MM (can we please go back to slash lol), I thought I was an horrible person for doing so, especially because I thought I was straight. Now I read it all, write it all, enjoy it all!! I'm a writer and I'm trying to explore all types of relationship dynamics, even when it's hard to pull away from the heteronomative expectation of sex and people in general. Anyway, enough talking, I loved it!

[@obviouslyqueer]

Oh thank you so much for this comment! (And yeah I like slash more than MM too ...)

[@slm_766]

@@obviouslyqueer I used to read a lot of slash in the 1990s, and I wrote a few stories. (My stories could be rated PG/PG13 -- the sex was not the point). But that's not why I'm replying. How are you distinguishing slash from MM? Is it because slash is based on inferred subtext, but MM is based on text? Or what?

[@elmarow2495]

Very important discussion with some great points!! I have had many of these same thoughts myself, it is so good to see someone else really diving into it and giving the topic the attention it deserves. Great to see it! I do love and appreciate the boom in MLM content, and will continue to consume it, but I do still see it as potentially problematic. I hope as queerness is slowly becoming more accepted and normalised this will eventually grow to include the full breadth of representation we love and deserve!

[@bionicmagi6388]

This conversation just feels kinda... incomplete without talking about fem slash dominated fan spaces, because they DO happen and analyzing WHY they happen tells us a lot about why male slash dominates other fandom spaces. A lot of fem slash dominated fandoms are for media featuring large female casts and female main characters, and it always kind of comes across like people who don't see those fan spaces at all just aren't interested in stories about women.

[@bubbles4897]

Don’t mind. This creator is kinda dumb

[@satunbreeze]

I agree heavily with this video, but i also have to say that, as a trans man, this kind of media (ESPECIALLY BL and yaoi) were integral to me coming out to myself and understanding that I desperately needed to see men being vulnerable and masculine and feminine in ways that are unconventional to heteronormative media. I don't know if I would have been able to figure it out otherwise. I recall when i thought i was agender, and telling my friends, very confusedly, "I think I like men, but in a gay way???" And i realized that in hetero romances i almost never actually payed any attention to the woman in them cause I couldn't relate at all. Ymmv obviously even if you are a woman, but I have these kinds of media to thank for my epiphany lol

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you for the comment, I think it's vital when having these kind of discussions to separate the individual and the culture. Enjoying MLM mostly (or only) isn't an issue unless you can see why that is and how that trend plays into discrimination, gender roles and hierarchies in reality. But if MLM helped you and made you learn something about yourself that's great!

[@ninjakiwigames5418]

I can relate to the "I think I like men, but in a gay way" thing myself, although it wasn't what made me figure out I'm not cis or played a major part in that, it's still something I think about on a regular basis. I'm an afab enby btw

[@kittenbraden9800]

I am a queer person who gets read as lesbian, who is in a relationship that gets read as lesbian, whom the algorithm bombards with period product ads etc, whose social circle is almost entirely queer, and I Live Online. I was today years old when I learned that Warrior Nun is queer. Some sapphic stuff doesn't even show up for me. Or if it does, there's no mention of the queer relationships in the description, no telling posters etc. This is just baffling. I would've totally watched that had there been any mention of its queerness, wtf! 😭 Anyway, I'll do my part and share a sapphic story I know: season 6 of Druck (Germany's version of Skam); the couple is Kieu My and Fatou, both wlw of colour ♡

[@eiarromba7149]

I stopped watching Druck a while ago, I didn't know they made a sixth season 😭

[@lapiecelazuli7803]

one of the things that frustrate me the most is when 2 new male characters get introduced in a media and they're immediately more popular than that fandom's most popular wlw ship, like i just KNOW if that wlw ship was mlm itd be the most popular in the fandom period. Why can't female characters get the same attention even if their relationship has a lot of subtext and romantic lines while the males just happen to know each other 😭😭😭😭 (this is a genshin fandom call out)

[@obviouslyqueer]

Oh yeah this is wild, two men who never speak always have a bigger shipping fandom than two women with an intricate relationship and storyline 🙃

[@azure_blue]

* cough cough * Kavetham

[@ethanrokich1218]

I absolutely loved this video. It put into words perfectly, what I as a gay teen who is heavily into fandom, have been feeling about the content I consume. Which has been that even though I'm the supposed target demographic for movies like Red, White and Royal Blue, they don't feel like they're being made for a gay teen. I'm certainly going to binge all your content after watching this it was so good 😊

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you so much for your support and lovely words!

[@searchingforelris]

Thank you incredibly much for this video. You managed to put all my complicated and confusing thoughts into perspective and find the right words - I feel so understood. I've grown so so tired of the heteronormative perspective of "masculine" gay men always penetrating (because every masculine being ever does that) and the "feminine" gay men receiving (because anything feminine is bound to be passive, ever). I've mostly encountered that stereotype in the queer community and it's so so damaging, like many people have shared in this comment section. Thank you especially for also stating reasons as to WHY women enjoy content around gay men so much. I've used to think its out of pure fetishization of the male body, but the new perspective of enjoying and exploring topics without any person to identify with does make a lot of sense. I think if all typed of media would start to portray men outside of the toxic masculinity they are often victims of, these gay shows wouldn't have that "very special" effect that they have. A lot of women in the comments have said they consume MLM media because they like seeing men be vulnerable. Vulnerability doesn't come with being gay, it should be portrayed across all male characters in my opinion. In the end, this video really resonated with me - and it makes me very mad. We need more queer representation and I think its a double edged sword if we have huge cooperations (who mostly produce content for straight people) make shows about queer characters. We need more QUEER stories (surrounding all people of the community) and the effect that it makes a lot of people uncomfortable, if it doesn't follow the "straightwashed-norm", is clear proof of that. Thank you again for making this video!

[@obviouslyqueer]

This comment made me so happy. Thank YOU for your long, uplifting and thoughtful comment. It means the world to me that you enjoyed this video and wanted to share your thoughts. Thank you again 🙏

[@bb4251]

I watch and consume a lot of East Asian media bc I’m Asian and there are sooooo many mlm or bl dramas and manhua/manhwas out rn. The most popular drama from my country (thailand) is a bl called 2gether, and it blew up all over Asia. The studios that made that drama produce about 4 bl shows per year, and there are so many studios that do the same. Korea has started making a ton of bl dramas too, and every month a new one explodes. a bl fanfic about a Chinese drama (the untamed) got so big in China that the government literally banned a fanfic website lol

[@vee6163]

As a bi woman who's fairly new to the queer community, but have been trying to consume/engage in more queer media/content, I've been wondering about this topic a lot lately and this video definitely helped me understand the appeal of MLM stories, especially for queer women. However, it also left me feeling a bit hopeless for those of us who lack complete interest in these type of stories and *yearn* for the sapphic ones to get the same visibility and respect.

[@obviouslyqueer]

I'm glad you enjoyed it, thank you!

[@lauriensnijers2322]

I feel like mlm has more emotion in it. The characters often have a better backstory and more depth, they talk about what they want, and their feelings, and consent is asked. something I often miss in straight romance (at least in the stories I read) but as a (confused)queer woman I'd like to see more wlw or just female characters who exist for more than being killed or the couple in the background.

[@kathryn5631]

there are a lot of good wlw books out there, they're just harder to find as they're not popular in the mainstream

[@lauriensnijers2322]

can you maybe recommend some?@@kathryn5631

[@BlackXSunlight]

8:54 MM macroflow slash damage sounds like an attack in an RPG

[@obviouslyqueer]

Ghhahah 100%

[@jhor729]

the writing, directing, and acting was better in some of these mlm stories versus the flf ones, and heartstopper centered a flf story before the boys got together

[@autumnbrookesings]

I've been thinking about this lately, and this is such a good video on this topic! Misogyny and the patriarchy are huge factors because of the history of 50 years of fandom and hundreds of years of our society valuing men above women. Really nuanced and relatable female characters are still novel, and tons of media, both straight and queer, still wouldn't even pass the freaking Bechdel test. As an queer woman, I want to see wlw media!! But I've always loved a swoony, tropey romance story, and, as you discussed, most wlw media is action or fantasy. I've also seen lots of people in comments talking about how mlm stories tend to be focused a lot more on emotions and vulnerability, whereas lots of today's wlw and women-centered stories are more brash in their portrayal of sexuality. Because women being able to talk about sex that way and have casual sex is more subversive, and men being able to be vulnerable is more subversive. So, as an aroace person who enjoys the emotional aspects of stories and is slightly uncomfortable with very crude discussions of sex, the mlm stories are the ones I gravitate towards. There are countless exceptions to this, especially in books, which seem always several steps ahead of tv/film in terms of varied representation, but the trend is definitely there.

[@mayamusa5208]

If you’d like I have a recommendation for an aroace wlw manga: Doughnuts under the crescent. I found it relatable as an aroace women. I read both wlw and mlm stories so if you’d like recommendations I’m here .😊

[@adamnreader4599]

31:37 oh this is ABSOLUTELY true!! i'm a transmasc nonbinary and me & my boyfriend are both bisexual but i'm significantly shorter than him. i'm also much more femme presenting to his masculine presentation. and i KNOW that people always perceive him as the top & me as the bottom (not to mention the fact that they view me as 'woman lite') when our bedroom dynamics are just nowhere near that. this is the reason i am always so hesitant to read these romance novels or join groups that are solely focussed on mlm romance books. (they also has some very weird depiction of gay sex as well). wlw romances do a much better job in this regard imo. anyway, great video actually!!

[@k.8786]

sounds fake to me.

[@the.galant.cadential.formula]

This was simply excellent. My only regret is that I am just discovering your content now. I hope you are teaching or being considered for professorship somewhere because this was the most erudite, thorough, and charismatic lecture I've attended in a while. Your analysis of the top/bottom dichotomy and the penetration norm made me think of a great lecture I heard over a decade ago. At the time the presenter very compellingly argued that by either consciously or unconsciously adhering to what are in the end heterosexually derived norms we (the Queer community) are trying to become less of an unknown entity to ourselves by 'mimicking'---if you will---what we learned from societal examples. In this Queer Streaming Media Renaissance (my term and no one elses, so if it's terrible I apologise), it seems vital to provide the rising generations with at least a broader spectrum of "normal" relationship dynamics but what we have is not exactly approaching that. It's all very fascinating but, as you point out, a bit disappointing.

[@dreamcoreeden]

Gay man here. My bestie, (bi male) recommended your video to me. It would be so good if say for example the first time we see Heartstopper characters Nick & Charlie get sexual, with Nick bottoming. Not only would it beautifully serve his story as him relinquishing control of his fear if coming out but if filmed well and done right, could nudge the public into somewhat if a good direction. And finally have a decent Sapphic love drama with non conforming women. I'd even say older women!!!

[@kongwaguk8337]

Although I believe people of any sexuality should be able to act out queerness, I can’t help but wonder why the highest-grossing queer movies are those with straight actors. Is it because high-budget production films want actors with wider appeal? Does the fetishization of “straight” men make them more desirable to the gay community? Additionally, how often do queer actors get to play the main characters in straight romance movies?

[@mr.baselineart8658]

I think that generally speaking feminine gay men aren’t the desirable form of gay when it comes to dating. Women and men both usually prefer a masculine or neutral man to date and since gay male love stories are usually marketed to draw viewers in by making them attracted to the two main male characters, they usually want to hire straight men to play them. I think you’re right though because many gay men I’ve seen speak on this don’t see an issue that actual gay men rarely play gay characters in our media outside of flamboyant stereotypes, and I think part of that is due to how some gay men view straight men as inherently more masculine or attractive. That’s just my two cents though

[@DeeCee1411]

Highly informative essay. Thank you!

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you a lot! ☺️

[@Artlesbi]

Straight ladies I would appreciate it if ya'll could give wlw romances a chance because I'm starving for some shows with lesbian romance and netflix keeps cancelling the few we get. The warrior nun cancellation was confirmed to be because of lesbophobia. 😞

[@kathryn5631]

this was a great video! I've been involved in fandom for a few years and it's always frustrating me how almost everyone obsesses over the mlm ships (even ones that are given little to no development in the original media) and ignore wlw ships, call them boring and underdeveloped, it has always read as internalised misogyny to me

[@Imetwurld_]

How is dat even mysogny.its preference. M|m is a safe space for us. Many of us straight women have been traumatized by straight men.

[@kathryn5631]

@@Imetwurld_ I meant that saying wlw ships are boring and underdeveloped reads as internalised misogyny, if you have experienced trauma and are finding a safe space nobody is going to stop you for that

[@JordanSullivanadventures]

On writing OC fanfic: "And I mean, making up a whole new personality from scratch? I'd rather save that for family reunions!" I LOST it 😂

[@fernandafuentes6858]

As a lesbian, I do notice myself watching more mm shows rather than ff ones because of the genre problem ypu mention. I'd rather watch a lightharted comedy or romance with low stakes rather than a big fantasy where I have to think and pay attention to worldbuilding, rules, etc and it's very frustrating because I want to see myself on screen but I just don't have the attention span to actually watch shows like Warrior Nun. Last lesbian shows I watched and love were Dickinson and a League of their own and one ended and the other one got cancelled so I really hope we get a bit more diversit in shows when it comes to lesbian stuff

[@obviouslyqueer]

Absolutely get you. I would also love to see some older lesbians? We just have to hope this trend has a ripple effect to other queer communities

[@JordanSullivanadventures]

I know it was a woman you interviewed referring to *herself* this way, I wouldn't call it "slash-damaged" to default to queer readings of things. First off, it's fun! Secondly, as a queer person who is really excited to finally be seeing textual queer representation which shares a lot of the tropes of queerbaiting (but actually delivers), it just feels like a cop-out to be like, "why can't they just be fRiEnDs?" when we do queer readings of current media which lacks textual confirmation of queerness.

[@michaelolivero1626]

I'm delighted with how insightful and well presented your videos are on these subjects. So many people are riding a hair trigger, just waiting to be offended by something. The same show can be both too gay and not gay enough, great representation and too straight-washed. There is always someone dissatisfied with something and someone else ready to argue about it. There was a time when shows were there to be watched and enjoyed without being picked apart by the Woke culture. It's also alarming the attitude some fans have regarding the talent in these productions, as if they have a right to dictate the actors private lives. I feel sometimes as society continues to expand its boundaries and grow culturally, it is also on the verge of imploding. I admit to loving shows like Red White and Royal Blue and Heartstopper, but I also really liked Warrior Nun, I'm fuming over the cancellation of the Bastard Son and the Devil Himself, and I will never get over the cancellation of Sense8. But I'm off on a rant tangent now. I'll just say, I really like your content. Liked and Subscribed.

[@Imetwurld_]

Honestly they is nothing like not gay enough. They are so many gay men that present masculine. How is that heteronormative that's just who they are just like lesbians who present feminine .

[@mya.1235]

I will admit that this topic hurts a little bit bc I feel called out. Not as if I enjoy the "top/bottom dinamic" or "extremely stereotype fetish m/m romance" NO God forbid; what I mean is that all I care about is an entertaining, safe and just pretty queer story, whether it's WLW or MLM it's irrelevant. I love a lot most of the show that you mentioned and I get angry and frustrated that people are ruining it just bc all they see is "two hot boys they can ship or (worse) Fetishy". So I agree with you in most of what you said, I would like to add some data since most of the media I consume is young queer/young adult in general, to prove what you expressed: I'll list here my favorite queer couples from movies, TV shows, Web series and books: Wilhelm and Simon (Young Royals, tv show) - MLM Luz and Amity (The Owl House, cartoon) - WLW Jadriel and Julian (Cemetery Boys, book) - MLM Nick and Charlie (Heartstopper, tv show) - MLM Ballister and Ambrosius (Nimona, movie) - MLM Ruby and Sapphire (Steven Universe, cartoon) - WLW Tara and Darcy (Heartstopper, tv show) - WLW Captain Holt and Kevin (Brooklyn 99, tv show) - MLM Mitch and Cam (Modern Family, tv show) - MLM Venitia and Britt (Fabulous, tv show) - WLW Blitz and Stolas (Helluva Boss, cartoon/web show) - MLM Cate and Vi (Arcane, tv show/cartoon) - WLW Charlie and Vaggie (Hazbin Hotel, cartoon/web show) - WLW Sarah and Stella (This world won't tear me down, cartoon/web show ) - WLW Eda and Raine (The Owl House, cartoon) - WLW (although Raine is Non-binary, not a woman) Cash and Derren (Heartbreak High, tv show) - MLM (again Derren is a non-binary teenager) Elena and Sid (One day at the time, tv show) - WLW (I swear, this is a coincidence- Sid is non-binary) Rooney and Pip (Loveless, book) - WLW Pearl and Volleyball (Steven Universe, cartoon) - WLW Tosiek and Leon (Fanfik, movie) - MLM The MLMs are slightly less then the WLWs but most of them are even secondary to the main story, so that puts them in a unfair spot, despite being all good. I really hope to see more significant queer women/people in media in the future, we got so much now then as compared to the past so it can only get better (fingers crossed!!).

[@igniculusquartz1827]

I think a big part of this issue is straight women's fetishisation of gay men as you touched on lightly. I've seen a lot of comments obsessing over "BL" and over the top bottom dichotomy and it starts to get a bit strange when these women treat gay men (especially those who are depicted as teenagers) to be play things for their fantasies. The use of the term "BL" in general feels fetishishing to me and makes me highly uncomfortable, especially when it's used about real people (which I have seen before). Straight women who are into this need to remember that gay men can be real people, even if the ones they read about are not. I've even met women who are obsessed with "BL" characters but are homophobic towards actual gay men.

[@obviouslyqueer]

Yes 💯 I know BL is a genre and the correct word for this kind of media in certain places of the word, but I'm really struggling with the term used outside of that specific description.

[@igniculusquartz1827]

@@obviouslyqueer Right like it's apt for yaoi manga or whatever but idk people calling shows like Heartstopper "BL" is weird... I've seen people call real gay people "BL" too and it's like this isn't some weird fetish shit.

[@Victori.A1]

Misogyny is so accepted in our society

[@godabandonedmesoibecameaba8984]

I thought I was overthinking on really specific problems that bothered no one but after hearing you I think I wasn't so unreasonable. The freeing from body is the only reason I watch mlm and I totally agree on top/bottom part too (especially when 12 year old girls in comments talks about who's bottom or who's the "better manly top" at series that are not targeted to them)

[@ola171]

We need a different acronym for the other MLM because I clicked this video expecting a discussion about that and another time I clicked a video talking about the other thing expecting it to be about this topic 😂

[@obviouslyqueer]

Hahaha yes, the amount of people in the comments who though this was about marketing 😭

[@ola171]

@@obviouslyqueer 😂😂

[@moshikamboshi1]

Eftersom ingen svensk läser detta tänkte jag bara säga att jag är tacksam för att du förklarar allt. Din röst är viktig.

[@obviouslyqueer]

Wow! Kul att se svenska här. Tusen tack! 💞

[@_.momo._]

wow, I have just discovered you and I have to say, you are so damn cool. how you approach things, how you talk about them, how you are not afraid to also talk about things that are, you know, usually avoided to be discussed, it's refreshing I think. And all that in such a respectful, rational and fun manner that really resonates with me. I love it!!

[@obviouslyqueer]

Oh god thank you so much! This made me really glad. I'm happy you're enjoying my channel and I'm glad to have you here! 🙏✨

[@BlackXSunlight]

This is a topic that is so personal to me. Dealing with homophobia growing up, it would come in so many different forms and levels of severity. But I think the most damaging form I experienced consistently was the discomfort and betrayal of being fetishized by women-in real life, to my face, publicly. I know a lot of you might think that this is purely a man’s world and women have zero power and influence always, but that’s not really how marginalization and privilege works. I wish that everyone who did consume a lot of mm content should ask themselves why it’s a woman-dominated space. There is a key group of people being left out of the conversation.

[@Jeneri1]

It's sad that deep, emotional friendships between men can't thrive and be normalized like just that, good friendship. For at least 15 years, I've been thinking about why I enjoy mlm more than wlw in media, despite being a woman on the "lesbian-spectrum" and I've always believed it's to do with how women are treated in media and portrayed as whiny and weak and/or "yandere". Being mean as a girl doesn't equal tough. I could never see myself in them and therefore I was alway more drawn to mlm where there were characters that felt more real. It's getting better, but we're still far off. Also the taboo of sensitive men that's ....hot? 😅 oh how we're molded from the start to this society.

[@dontesonline]

this was such an excellent video, like this has even made me think about how fetishization & top/bottom theory have impacted me irl. i’ve had multiple friendships ( w str8 men ) strained bc ppl perceive ANY intimate action we do together as gay. its not only super annoying but confusing for MEEE. like i 2nd guess myself & the actions i take now

[@dalus8073]

Enjoyed your perspectives quite a lot. First, I am an older queer cisgender male. Hearing your contrast between the m/m features as more about romance, and the f/f features having to have more action or fantasy: What do you think about the idea that the history of patriarchal dominance means that the m/m romance is much more taboo than the f/f romance would be? Viewing the m/m romance of Heartstopper or Young Royals really seems to upend the traditional patriarchal sensibility so emphatically, and thus that depiction becomes more dangerous to the norm, and thus more exciting to watch, as it is breaking such a time-worn taboo.

[@LJ-fb1yl]

Massively interesting video - thanks for making! I've been enjoying more MLM media recently, and as someone who grew up almost exclusively surround by men/women relationships, it's been interesting to question my own norms around this, actually see it in media, and then also question my own sexuality around it. I honestly don't think I'd've thought beyond a hetronormative perspective had it not been for the rise of this type of representation in media - and am massively looking forward to (hopefully!) seeing more from a wider variety of queer perspectives :) (Anne+:the film on Netflix is one I personally enjoyed, but I don't always have a nuanced or sophisticated taste :D )

[@handsomemahlambi]

What I think we could possibly start doing in this time of stepping stone is make the wlw stories within mlm stories so undeniably good that they get a spin-off movie and bait people with the show’s mlm couple’s story continuing within it but it’s a very small part People realise they loved the movies even if they didn’t have mlm stories continued and start building fandoms around that Once we’re in movie territory (which is a once off experience so the intake isn’t high yet) then we move into series land Letting them rise in popularity

[@Rage_Harder_Then_Relax]

That sounds almost prejudice. Dump the MLM just because you want a WLW? When that MLM is already established? Yeah....good luck with that LOL. Especially when most of the consumers are straight women and gay/bi men LOL.

[@user-sr8oe2tf3q]

For me (bi-women) I love good stories. I don't care if there is m/w, m/m or w/w, as long as the romance is convincing. But the w/w Stories are often tragic or sad or a sidenote in their own story. But I've found some nice wlw books in German.

[@Yourlocalprocrastinator]

I will never forgive Netflix for canceling I am not okay with this for fucking Ginny and Georgia.

[@dinara4035]

I totally saw the title and initially thought it was about multi level marketing. 😅

[@eklipsnoiredinence]

Thank you, this was illuminating. So interesting.

[@obviouslyqueer]

Thank you! 🌟

[@dalecooper9942]

I got in here because you were supposed to be talking about Multi Level Marketing - MLM

[@emilyplantz1907]

NOT ME THINKING THIS VIDEO WAS ABOUT MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING. I'm still here for the discourse though lol

[@laurawe9055]

Interesting! For me personally (lesbian) it‘s a bit of the opposite. I often can‘t relate with mlm storylines and therefore don‘t find them too interesting (same with most mlw storylines), unless the focus of the series/movie revolves around something other than love. Then, I don‘t care about the sexualities, am happy tho if it turns out to be sapphic lol. So, for me Heartstopper was and is a huge exception. It‘s one of the only mlm shows and general mlm content that I thoroughly enjoy! I love the communication between Nick and Charlie, the care and love for each other and the way Alice put in a mix of wholesome and dark storylines, as well as them taking their time with figuring out how they want their relationship to develop. Other than that I just rewatch the same 3-4 wlw shows that I love, waiting for the next sapphic series to drop so I can check it out and see if I like it. The whole cancelation thing is annoying tho. Especially with Warrior Nun (tho we will have it back) and A League Of Their Own. I hope one day we‘ll get a series like Heartstopper but with sapphic characters like Darcy and Tara in the foreground 😊

[@obviouslyqueer]

Love that for you! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. So nice that Warrior Nun gets a second chance, but I just heard A League of their Own got cancelled so 🙃 you win some you lose some

[@laurawe9055]

@@obviouslyqueer Thanks for your kind words! 😊 Yeah, I saw that too. Such a shame, it was such a good series! But at this point I just expect sapphic series not to get another season so there‘s no disappointment, only pleasant surprises 😅

[@bamb3928]

I want to see more WLW rep with women who just look like normal everyday people like Tara and Darcy. I also really appreciated Maggie and Nina in Good Omens season 2. I have a hard time watching WLW as a lesbian because it’s usually two gorgeous and thin women. It doesn’t interest me and often feels like it’s more for the male gaze. For this reason, I consume MLM instead for the most part. It’s completely detached from me which allows me to enjoy it more.

[@laurawe9055]

@@bamb3928 That‘s a really interesting perspective, thank you for sharing it! Makes total sense to me. And yeah, I‘m also really happy about Tara and Darcy as wlw representation. Other than that I love Dani and Jamie from Bly Manor especially because it‘s more focused on romance than sexual connection (which I don‘t generally mind but I agree with the male gaze aspect which sometimes makes scenes feel more like a performance meant to please a horny audience rather than „oh wow, these well written characters share an intimate meaningful moment“. Idk how to describe it better.) And Waverly and Nicole from Wynonna Earp have my heart because the cast is awesome and I love their connection, though this show definitely falls into the gorgeous thin woman (and non-binary person in this case) trope that you talked about. Bly Manor feels a bit more like they could be everyday people, even though they‘re ofc also conventionally attractive.

[@flowersgurl403]

@@bamb3928 arent most mlm skinny or muscular ? looool

[@spikeyferret8613]

Also i want to add as a gay transgender man its always cisgender men in mlm ships that get the representation and popularity like one of my favorite shows had a gay transman in it dead end paranormal is the show and like there really wasnt much like fandom around the characters and that show got cancled but like in fandom u never see transmen in these unless its really weird dehumanizing shit like ive looked for fanfics with transmen in them and omg they all r inaccurate to how most trans ppl r and like so fetashizing in a gross way and like some of them like made me feel nauseous its fucking awful but like ppl just really dont like transmen in mlm relationships