Fetters; A Linear or Circular Process? - Q&Awakening - The Awakening Curriculum

[@lizeisman6001]

I love hearing this again! I always get more and more. ❤

[@christianemichelberger8245]

Having guided in the Buddhist framework of the 10 fetters for 8 years, I have to disagree on the point that reactivity can happen when somebody is successfully beyond the fetters. To me, the lady who felt that has an excellent BS meter. In the face of different interpretations, let's return to what the creator of the fetter framework, the historical Buddha said. The fetters are most clearly expressed in his definition of the different awakening stages. 1. Streamenterer = the fetters #1-3 have fallen away (personality view/self-illusion, doubt, clinging to rites and rituals). 2. Once-Returner = the fetters #4/5 are weakened (desire and ill will/aversion). 3. Non-Returner = the fetters #4/5 are fully gone. 4. Arahant/conqueror = the fetters 6-10 have fallen away. There is no source that supports that the fetters 4/5 would come back once somebody has conquered all fetters or that someone cycles through the stages forward and backwards. There is also no source in the Pali Canon that says we wouldn't experience hurt or other uncomfortable feelings. The difference after the state of a non-returner is that reactivity is gone without trying to not react. It simply doesn't arise any longer. The Buddha defined the Arahant stage as Nibbana with residues. The residues would only be left behind with the death of the body and its 5 senses. He also explicitly states that it is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion that is called Nibbana with residues. So clearly, there should be no reactivity any longer. "“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left." (iti 44) Of course, everybody is free to use the fetter framework as they see fit, it's then just no longer the framework of the Buddha and should maybe have a different name.

[@TheAwakeningCurriculum]

Hello, Christiane, Thank you for watching. I think you might have misunderstood what we were saying regarding still being reactive after awakening. We have tried to make it very clear in dozens of videos that reactivity ends after 4 and 5 have been seen through and dropped. This talk was actually about how we cannot judge people, compare, or know the experience of another. But it was never intended to come across sounding as though people could actually drop all of the fetters and still be reactive or carrying attachments. That would be a complete contradiction, and simply impossible. It’s also not meant to condone behavior or unjustified statements made by teachers. This is only to point to our own tendencies to project outward. We have spoken so frequently about 4 and 5, and how there can be no reactivity after working with them, that it was not specifically addressed here. We didn’t mean for it to lead to any confusion. However, regarding the “continued hurt or uncomfortable feelings” that you mentioned, we do find that the emotional underpinnings that lead to the primary sensation (which would have once led to reactivity) can also be addressed and worked through. In our formulation of the fetters, we address it in Fetter 2, which makes it much easier to work with 4/5 when it comes time to investigate them. Complicating matters, the suttas are explicit about how the dropping of fetters will result in future rebirths, but do not discuss how to go about weakening or breaking the fetters, or what a life without fetters even looks like. (Aside from saying things like that there is no desire…) We have never found any references that specifically state that the fetters need to be worked through linearly. (Other more modern teachings we’ve come across have also pointed to the necessity of becoming aware of all of them from the beginning, as they are all hindrances to our practice.) It’s only that the stages of Once-Returner, etc. only occur when the relevant fetters have been seen through. Which doesn’t indicate that they cannot all be addressed at the same time, or that insights can’t weaken or break multiple of them at once. The other thing which we find a relevant distinction, is that the fetters as we are all interpreting them, tend to describe experiences that many people have on their Awakening journey, regardless of which path they are following. Of course it’s not universal to everyone, but there are striking similarities, especially around Fetters 1, 4-6, and 8. Consequently, the Buddhist formulation of rebirth might not be relevant to them, but the road map of possible experiences that they might discover for themselves, is extremely helpful. We are cognizant to not lock anyone in to using this framework in a specific way. In our experience of working with people, their paths tend not to be completely linear, which you have also referenced in the past. Instead of using the terms “leading edge” and “trailing edge”, we just discuss it as a wheel that reflects that you can have insights in some fetters, but still be stuck in others. And until those related issues stop arising, there is something more to be investigated. I hope that helps to clarify. Again, we’re sorry for any misunderstandings or confusion. Thank you for watching and commenting!