FF hondas vs RWD hondas

[@alexkhine9503]

the way that this Mugen RR revs is so fast!!!! incredible,...

[@przemoc666]

I dont understand shit, but i just love these japanese race track videos especially when compare different cars. It seems like they really enjoy driving their hondas just like i enjoy mine. Still, subtitles would be sweet

[@pilotdrifter]

its amazing how quickly everyone forgets about driving technique when two different drive trains are put against each other. it doesnt matter how much power you put into you car if your a better driver you will win, power only matters if you and your opponent's skills are the same.

[@TassieLorenzo]

They couldn't find a tuned S2000 for this test, eh? :raises eyebrow: ;)

[@Wloczykij]

These guys are great! listen to them having so much fun in these great cars! :D

[@海鮮どん-g9n]

これS2のタイヤってセカンドグレードのRE050よね？シビックと同じハイグリップのRE11だったらどうなったんだろ？

[@フォードトムソン]

加速でおもっきり負けてるように見えるのでどのみち負けてるのかなと思います

[@c312eal]

@apexdna I have a b16a in my civic. I'm not saying that but titanium rods and fiber coated bores were unheard of when the NSX came out. The C30A is a racing engine too. It was used for racing by Honda.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal NSXs actually DO have more cargo space than most super cars, thanks to the usable rear trunk, in addition to the more common front compartment for the spare.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna Funny thing is the NSX was made and designed inspired by F1. It was to celebrate their success of F1 having direct input from the F1 legend Senna. NSX embodies Honda's F1 effort. These technologies were implemented into the NSX before it was trickled down to the FFs of Honda.

[@apexdna]

@ClubbySuperCharged It is, they were comparing new Civics (at the time) vs. still-in-production S2000s, NSXs were no longer made (at the time).

[@軽音ファル]

みんなめちゃくちゃ楽しそうに走ってる スバルも好きだったけどホンダも好きだ

[@apexdna]

@c312eal Yet "top 3" technologies borrowed from F1, the (1) double-wishbone suspension and (2) PGM-FI was found as early as 1985 in Accords, with (3) VTEC in the 1989 Civic SiR, a whole year before the release of NSX in 1990...

[@d1sturb3d119]

The laptimes don't care if you dive a FF or RWD. If you want to be fast, choose your weapon. Trying to argue which is better is pointless. The beauty is that all these mediums exist and that's how a culture exists! :)

[@joeyvang7575]

If you think a regular Civic SI here is going to do that you're mistaken. Those S2000s are stock.

[@Stevelangdon93]

The last civic type R is stock too and it still beats the s2k....

[@joeyvang7575]

Thats why Civics Type Rs don't pass smog tests in the US or Europe cause its stock. oh... I missed that part.

[@Stevelangdon93]

The civic would pass in the UK That type R is stock, from factory just the way it is in the video, just because it's been built to a higher standard by Honda doesn't mean it's not "stock"

[@VaunShiz]

Steve Langdon lol 1st and Second place were taken by best motorings 2 best drivers.. Coincidence I think not lol

[@TheBb6prelude]

civic Si has nothing to do with the FD2,different purposes behind them for different customers. S2K is really really great sports car while the FD2 is a track focus car.

[@golf1diesel]

one of the best 240p videos ,better then most of the supercar videos from owners with hand cameras in 240..

[@fhowland]

Man I wish my 8th gen SI were that fast

[@jesselee4405]

Tune it bro, with bolt ons. Add polyurethane front lca's and a 22mm-24mm rear sway bar. You'd compete with the fd2r.

[@japangator]

I understand enough japanese to halfway understand it's funny how the racers were shocked themselves to see the S2000 lose to the new Civic. The Civic is said to be almost as equally fast as the late 90's 280HP japanese sports cars and that says a lot

[@KosaiAvonej]

Didn't the Mugen RR during testing beat an official NSX record on a track somewhere?

[@jesselee4405]

Yes

[@c312eal]

@apexdna You can see the FF disadvantage too once its tuned. FF over 300hp is really not good on track while the FR s2k is still amazing. With over 300hp for a FF on acceleration you're just going to get tire spin because a the weight of the car goes to the back and the front becomes super light. The stress on the front tires will be overwhelming, braking turning and accelerating with the front tires. That's gonna kill your tires faster than a FR.

[@andreadiatene]

To all FWD haters:don't blame yourself.FF takes skill to be driven fast.It is not your fault that you can't drive...but no need to blame the car as well.

[@DEADmetal3]

@hurtingguy15 i aggree with you. Besides for differences between FWD and RWD to be seen the track should have more tight turns or the cars should be more powerful

[@apexdna]

@c312eal In Canada, they actually did sell an EM1 SiRs, which were basically re-badged Si's w/OBD-2 B16As, while EX were sold as Si...but only in Canada. del Sol VTEC (SiR in Japan) did had a B16A, but not EH3s (USDM Civic Si) as they came with D16Z6s...isn't that the reason you swapped a B16A into your EH-chassis Civic hatchback in the first place?

[@c312eal]

@apexdna JGTC was one that let FF race along side with MRs and FRs. It let your FF accord race beside other drivetrains and guess what? since it was a FF and they knew it was disadvantage they decided to let it be 50kg lighter than the FRs and MRs. I don't need you to tell me what I deserve to drive or not? In north america the eg6 doesn't always have a b16a.

[@LoloBear7]

You know K.Tsuchiya's in trouble whenever his voice goes falsetto, lol

[@apexdna]

@timmyXx101xX Apples to oranges, my friend. An S2000 was created to celebrate the Honda's 50th anniversary, and as a tribute to the first Honda automobile, the S500. But you're right, both drivetrain layouts have their own advantages and disadvantages, whether it's power or handling. Type Rs came from SiRs which came from Si's. The F1-derived VTEC first appeared in 1989 on a Civic-based chassis.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal So you're saying that the original B16A wasn't as "super durable and high revving" as NSX's C30A?

[@apexdna]

Proven how? Please elaborate. Suspension design, suspension setup (spring rates, damping adjustment, sway bar thickness, etc.), chassis rigidity, wheelbase length, track width, alignment, tire pressure, tire width, tire compound and sidewall-thickness are only some of the factors that affect handling. Given everything is the same on both cars, except for the drivetrain layout, they will handle the same until, wait for it, throttle is being used.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna The Type R FD2 chassis is different from the USDM Si civic. Different chassis code, different chassis improvements in the FD2, its more rigid, lighter and has a more aggressive suspension set up than even the SI's. FRs have more potential the FFs. Just look at the LFA. You don't see companies making 500hp super car FF because it would be unpractical and unusable

[@c312eal]

@apexdna Put your kids in the back seats? Fold back seats down for some extra cargo space?

[@c312eal]

@apexdna I'm not looking at FFs and FR from perspective but from physics. 4WD's do understeer. The R32s and R34s are known for understeer because of their overall heavy weight and heavy front load.

[@Levicroix]

I love how people will fight over anything.

[@apexdna]

@iknowcarsbetterthanu Very true. FFs also have less power loss thru drivetrain. And by rally, I mean Group A, and later, the WRC - the pinnacle of automotive racing. Even Formula 1 can be traced back to the rally racing, which lent a lot of it's technologies to Honda road cars (namely FFs) in the late '80s/early-'90s...the VTEC, the double-wishbone suspension, and programmed fuel injection all came from Honda's efforts in Formula 1 during those years as an engine supplier.

[@zeroswings2]

I wonder why Honda never made a S2000 Type R... that would've been sweet! I mean the Type S/CR isn't really made in the same way as a Type R car. I think that the result of something like that would've been interesting to see

[@asianmovement]

also I wonder how it would have turned out if they had their tops up.

[@apexdna]

@monster2000k Even then, K-series still has better aftermarket support which says a lot about the engine, especially considering that the best Hondas are FFs imho and swapping a F20C into FF chassis isn't feasible, am I correct? Anyways, it's like comparing a D16A6 to a Z6, sure Z6 is better out the box, but A6 has that much bigger potential, so in the end A6 wins, and that's with the head comparison alone...but I do have to admit I AM new to the newer stuff tho, no pun intended.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal That IS exactly what I've said. What I'm talking about is the double-wishbone equipped Civic-based chassis of the '90s. The Integra, and the Civic on which it is based on, and a few other models like the CR-X and del Sol. A lot of mechanical parts are interchangeable, from engine to suspension. DC2 is based on the EG6 and DC5 on EP3, they aren't all that different. Know your roots.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal "...in JGTC the FF cars had to be given advantages over the RWDs in order to keep them competitive..." What does have to do with the fact that the best Hondas are FFs?

[@apexdna]

@c312eal First of all, K20A is an FF engine. And second, since Honda has excelled at FFs more than any other car manufacturer, makes it the best Honda engine ever made...

[@apexdna]

@c312eal And FFs don't lose traction when properly setup. Happy now?

[@apexdna]

@c312eal You seem very confused. You can't use an FF like you would an FR in certain situations (and vice versa). Yet at the same time, there are a lot of ways you can use a similar method between the two drivetrain layouts to get a similar (end) result. Take a wheelie bar used in drag racing for example - there are traction bars made for FFs. They do the same job of planting the front (they even look the same), whether it's for stability (in FRs), OR traction (in FFs).

[@apexdna]

@c312eal Not necessarily, as there were some close shots in the past. Cars like the Nissan Primera, which was very successful in touring car championships, equipped with FR-based SR20 and double-wishbone suspension. Toyota's FF AE-chassis with F1-derived 4AGE, one of the few motors with 5-valves-per-cylinder (found only on cars like the Ferrari F355). FF Alfa Romes, which were just as successful in touring car racing, with interesting suspension setups. Peugeot 200-series and others...

[@apexdna]

@gpower88 Yeah, like 10 years ago...

[@iknowcarsbetterthanu]

@apexdna yes they both have advantages and disadvantages. But a tuned fr can put more power down better than any tuned ff. All high end circuit cars are rwd. But ff's are usually lighter than fr's so in competitions where the max power isnt too high like in some rallies and hill climbs ff's can out do fr's.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna That means Honda's best FF's can't compete with FRs or MRs while NSXs were handicapped in order to give other cars a chance? get it? NSX > any Honda or Honda FF?

[@apexdna]

@c312eal That's because F20C is an RWD-based engine, am I correct? Just because something is better out-of-the-box does not make it better overall... Engine for engine: K20A > F20C BUT, if it's in an S2000, why put a K20A, if you have an F20C already?

[@integraDA87]

I want that double r that thing is a beautiful machine

[@c312eal]

@apexdna Because the K20 is a new engine that the F20C. It has new technology ex iVTEC vs VTEC. And stock wise the F20C still makes more power and revs higher. If equipped with the iVTEC kit, the F20C will be even better.

[@smokedaicebrah]

@hurtingguy15 yea but eh on the contrary to that u could do sum mild work to the civic's ie; K24 bottom end with the K20 head and it pumps out 300hp+ just with that single mod, stock air intake box and everything. the F22's are limited to simpler mods such as simply installing pistons valves bla bla bla all the normal shit u can do to a motor and wutever drop a tubo or supercharger but ur still right about the tuned civics advan. but i gotta say im dissap. in the S2K Type S's performance there.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal No place? Anything is possible. Have you heard of Bisimoto's 1004 hp 2012 Si? Or Javier Loarca's 1,125 whp EH hatchback? And for the millionth time, where have I said that FFs are any better than FRs that you have to go out of your way to repeat yourself? Anyways, once this FR dust settles, people will start experimenting with the different drivetrain layouts again like they did in the '90s...back then we had FF drag racing, FF drifting, FF touring cars. Interesting times.

[@trois2540]

0:00 ~ 1:28 Days Like These - Justify

[@apexdna]

@ClubbySuperCharged It's MR, not FF or FR...

[@apexdna]

You do realize it was like four months ago, right?

[@apexdna]

@c312eal I'm not gonna argue that FR is overall a better drivetrain layout, but again it depends solely on the application. There are only a handful of people that have mastered the FF layout, and to majority it's still a mystery...that textbook definition you gave me is nothing more than a theory from an FR perspective.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna I don't know if you watched Senna do his lap but it was pretty casual. I don't hate FF's. I myself am a Honda fan and I love all the Type Rs. Since you mentioned KT, did you know that KT set the Tsukuba circuit record with an NSX? And that his favourite car is the FR 86? He also set the tough record in his home Usui touge with an NSX. Do you see any FF cars in here? Like I said okay under 300hp FF has a chance but over 300hp FF just doesn't have that potential

[@apexdna]

@c312eal In it's entirety? Perhaps you're right...BUT a lot of the technology borrowed from Honda's involvement in Formula 1 has been around before NSX, found in the earlier FF Hondas.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna FR isn't always for drifting. Yes the silvias are drift machines because ppl choose them to be. The LFA is a FR but its made for some SERIOUS speed. Hell load of downforce and power. Laps the ring faster than the GT-R. If you think I'm a FR drifting fanboy, you got me wrong. I like engines behind my seat :P Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos. MR and RRs.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna Every car loses traction. It depends on the driver. Infact the FF is more likely to lose traction because of the power going to the front.

[@junkieshere]

Btw, Stock s2000 final drive gear ratio is matched for european's freeways thus hurting its accel when compared to the shorter and more agrassive CTR. ;)

[@junkieshere]

Cars Can be Setup to match drivers needs and feels. The difference is in the tire usage. In general, an FF car will then to work the front tires more than the other layout. It's an inherited problem that rear it head out when things get tight and twisty like mountain runs, rally etc. Its not that FF cars cant compete we the others (Hey mini c did win rallies in the past). But the burden on the driver is more since they has to always keep themselves check and not work the front end too much.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal They had too, because it's main target was the Ferrari 328/348 and the Formula 1 cars that were/are MRs. Honda has excelled at FFs more than anyone else did (overall), so therefore the best FFs are Honda and vice versa (again, overall). What's so hard to understand? Nobody's arguing what's a better (overall) drivetrain layout is...

[@mastersusaf]

it that example- yea. but on the track, you dont want the power wheels to steer

[@apexdna]

@c312eal Yet the "Type R" moniker came from the "R" in the SiR models i.e. Civic. Know your roots. That same CTR lapped Tsukuba faster than both, the 3.2 version of the NSX and the original, by 1.22 and 2.73 seconds respectively. And again, where have I said that FFs are any better than FRs? The best FFs happen to be Hondas, and therefore the best Hondas are FFs, drivetrain layout-wise...those are the same FFs that take on the big dogs, so give credit where credit is due.

[@McBeamer94]

The real reason why the S2Ks lost is that their roofs were down . And that caused air streams .

[@もう中学生-y3r]

FD2は速すぎるもんなー S2000とでは相手にならんなー笑 でもチューニングの素材としたらS2最高やねんなー

[@apexdna]

@rakim808 No, it is NOT. Unless you're comparing to the Australian Type R.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna It can but after a lap or 2 you'll see why the FF is handicapped to the FR.

[@buccavich]

I hope they do more stuff like this on Top Gear Japan, better know as Best Motor TV.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna Why do you say that? the S2K chassis is amazing, its rigid and light despite being a convertible. Usually convertibles are known to been less rigid but thanks to s2k's x frame its strong. It's light too, the S2k has been known to have cornering abilities to beat the NSX in a few corners. The civic or integras were never compared to the NSX. If anything s2k chassis > civics or integras. Just by that fact its FR it has more potential and even stock more ability than a FF.

[@FungusApe]

hmmm just noticed that lol everyone else has the cluster on the bottom left and dk has feet

[@apexdna]

@monster2000k People actually swap K20s into S2000s and not the other way around.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna You day. You said I'm using extremes. when you yourself said FR loses stability. Damn that corvette in that won in Le Mans this year was pretty damn stable to me. It ran 24H and was still going like a rocket.

[@BerryA86]

I think the Mugen RR you're referring to is the advanced concept model. The Mugen RR featured in this race weighs a bit less than 2800 and has 240 ps. Regardless, it was a slaughter, the s2000 had the 2.2 liter engine.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal JTCC, not JGTC...two different things.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna 1st thing, FRs are not just for drifting. This year in Le Mans the champion in the GT class was a FR Corvette. They didn't drift that 24h race to win and no FF was in that race because everyone knows MR and FR are better layouts for racing. Once again I'm not hating on FFs. LOL I drive a EG6 with a engine from the del sol LOL I love it but I know FRs perform better. FFs are here because they are cheaper to manufacture

[@apexdna]

@c312eal Rally IS the pinnacle of automotive racing. Not only is it the oldest form of motorsport dating back to the late 1800s, but also the most demanding. It gave gave birth to Formula 1 in 1950s, and has seen a fair share of winning FF machines since then. And NO, not in Formula 1, before this stems into yet another misunderstanding.

[@apexdna]

@iknowcarsbetterthanu Again, not necessarily. Most factory FRs tend to understeer like pigs anyways. Drivetrain layout has very little to do with the actual handling of the car. Both drivetrain layouts have their advantages/disadvantages...some of the best rally and touring cars, are FFs. Honda won both 2010 & 2011 BTCC in their Euro Civic (which isn't that great to begin with).

[@DrMarki337]

lol yea a different technique not a challenging one it comes naturally if you know any thing washing off speed with under steer is very easy to do and you know exactly how much throttle you can give fwd through the corner because the all that happens is a little loss of grip in the front tires then you let off a little. it is much harder to judge the amount of breaking and throttle to give a rwd because the front will slide if you dont break enough back will slide out if you give it too much gas

[@apexdna]

@c312eal NSX is an MR, and a Honda...it's like comparing a GT40 to a Mustang.

[@RLHubner]

Maybe you don't see it, but you just proved my point. FF cars handle quite different from FR, MR, or RR cars. Hence why we don't have front wheel drive F1 cars. And I don't even know what initial D is, can you elaborate please?

[@apexdna]

@c312eal That's two different categories. Apples to oranges, my friend.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal And who made the best FF cars? Honda.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna Under 300hp FF has a chance. But no matter what FR's advantages are greater. FF adds addition wear on the front tires. Think about it you're using 2 tires to do all your work load, accelerating, braking, and turning. That's some stress and wear on the tires. FF also has a acceleration disadvantage compared to FR. Every time you corner exit its like a restart and acceleration starts all over again. FR has an advantage at that time too.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna LOL the 4AGE is not F1 derived. The 4AGE was made WAY before Toyota joined F1. Prior to 2002, Toyota had no F1 experience therefore the old 4AGE was not related to F1. Infact road vehicles engines are nothing like F1 engines. If you drove an F1 engine like a road car, it'd break.

[@Michaelswk93]

Great vid and great drivers.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal That's because the rear wheels in a rear-wheel-drive HELP the car to steer i.e. rotate. "4WD is known for understeering... The FR-based R32-34 GT-Rs beg to disagree. You've been watching too many EVO/STi's, which are based on terrible FFs (compared to Honda's). And again, you're looking at FFs from an FR perspective, FFs can use power where FRs can't and vice versa...although I must admit that FRs can use more power (%) as power (hp) and speed levels increase.

[@c312eal]

@apexdna And just to tell you an engine's potential could ONLY be used to the max with the proper layout. The engine's job is to provide power to the wheels and the wheels to the road for maximum speed. The K20A potential isn't used to the max by a FF but by FR or MR cars. For example, the Helise. Lotus elise toyo engine swapped for the Honda K20A. With this a Elise is able to keep up to with even porsches on tracks. But it doesn't prove that the civic ff chassis are the best honda chassis.

[@ちんこうんこ-j1p]

モデューロのNSX カッコよすぎるしこのシビックもカッコいいしデザインはいいね

[@DrMarki337]

its easier to drive fwd fast what makes you think otherwise?

[@apexdna]

@c312eal So do B16As...look at DOHC ZC, D16A1 and USDM non-VTEC B18s and compare them to Honda's RA168 Formula 1 engine.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal With that thought process, an '86 Si with D15A is better than the latest CTR, since you can trace the history of the current K20A down to the early EW/D15 engines...you admit that the best MR is the McLaren F1, and NOT the NSX, then why not accept that best Hondas (drivetrain-layout-wise) are FFs...I don't think there's a bigger category to which to judge upon.

[@popz4470]

What happened to MR?

[@S2000VTEC2200]

タイヤ同じにしたらどうなんだろ…

[@lotusboy24]

Oh don't get me wrong, i love RWD myself, but Ive learned not 2 under estimate a mildly tunned FWD car, like that new nissan maxima, that thing is a FWD beast! its out runnin BMW's & we all know the BMW's are RWD, but I like em both. I guess what im tryna say is that, with all the engineering and technology that goes into these cars now-a-days, i would have to say the playing field is pretty even no matter the drive-train, It's up 2 the driver 2 deliver as seen in this video when the FF car won.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal Just because the engine is making more power from the factory does NOT make it a BETTER engine OVERALL...there's so many other factors to consider, beginning with aftermarket support and all the way to the actual usage of the motor, both by the manufacturer and the public.

[@VaunShiz]

Imagine that the 2 best drivers ended up in 1st and 2nd lol

[@c312eal]

@apexdna Of course drivetrain has A LOT to do with actual car handling? are you nuts? MRs are known to oversteer and are scary to drive in rain and snow conditions. 4WD is known for understeering but being able to have amazing traction while cornering. FF is known for its characteristics for understeer no matter how well you tune it these characteristic will show at the car's limit.

[@f0gGenx]

Civic is nice and even if the s2000 doesnt have a K20, I don't mind the 9k RPM F20c (AP1) and it's always fun to drive an FR. s2k ftw

[@T1twins]

@apexdna thats depends on where you live my friend.

[@richrich27]

they dont have the v6 accord america has. the american accord is a totally different model in europe and japan. their accord is the acura tsx here.

[@apexdna]

@c312eal We're talking about cars, drivetrain-layout-wise, not power equipment. Although Honda''s lawn mower engines do happen to be one of the most widely used "power equipment" engines, but let's not change the subject here, shall we? How many times do I have to repeat myself, before it starts to sink in - nobody's comparing Honda's RWDs to FFs, they're different drivetrain layouts. Apples to oranges, my little friend.