Fighter Pilot's Secret: Thrustmaster vs. WinWing

After flying and teching in the RAF for 20 years, my flight kit needs to get me results!
'I want some BUTTS!'
...or maybe just good flight kit!
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Thrustmaster Warthog Stick
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[@TheDarkman222]

Agreed on everything. Except the Stick. The Thrustmaster wants to stay in middle position. It needs some "breakout" force to make it moving, which makes you overshoot your inputs in close formation. The Winwing stick feels sluggish in middle position, which turns out to be very good for formation flying, having no resistance in the neutral position. Whats your opinion on that behavior?

[@FastJetPerformance]

I prefer the sluggish centre as it resembles a real jet better and is better for formation - it can be easily tweaked with curves but, as I said, for the money, the Warthog, especially used, is a good stick.

[@Willdass]

Nice review! Regarding the Warthog throttle switches: DCS does provide the opportunity to register Button X OFF position, so you can use a one way switch as Gear Up and Gear Down. You have to know the button number and select it manually. For example: If you want the EAC switch ARM as gear UP, note which button DCS shows ( for example Button 69). Then find the Gear Down keybind in DCS select it and scroll through the different button options for your Warthog throttle and you will find "Button 69 OFF", select that as Gear down.

[@midnight7297]

was bout to say this - saved me the typing :)

[@ComdrStew]

DCS you can bind a Button and a Button_OFF. So to bind the landing gear to that switch on the Warthog you would bind Gear Up as Button 24 and Gear Down as Button 24 and click on the Button 24 box which brings up a dropdown. Now just select Button 24_OFF. Now when you turn off that switch it will be Gear Down.

[@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations]

I do that. You used to have ‘Special inputs’ for that in the config menu. Now all I see is 2-way or 3-way. I have the Boat switch mapped to the Viggen’s 3 way Radar switch. The modifiers are great as well as you can double or triple your button inputs. I use the paddle on the back of the Warthog stick as a button modifier. Having the Airbrake mapped to the Throttles push and hold button is good for never having the Airbrake out by accident.

[@ComdrStew]

@@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations Yeah the new mapping system came out with 2.8. Before that I had to use RSMapper to do a lot of the stuff.

[@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations]

@@ComdrStew I didn't notice at the time 2.8 came out. I was only into the WWII DCS content and WWII multiplayer at first, so button binding wasn't really an issue until I recently started to learn the Viggen and apply my own button configuration. Radar controls are new to me and I feel like I need a left handed joystick with a two stage trigger for the Viggen. As well as six more axis. I like the look of the WinWing panel with the twisty knobs. They could prove very useful.

[@Scarebus_Driver]

Picked up the Win Wing set yiu have just got 6 months ago. Cant praise it more highly the soft center point is a god send for flying and a huge step up for helo’s. Love my Win Wing a fabulous setup and my okd Warthog is parked in the hanger.

[@CaoimhinOMaol]

Damn ! Nice to hear it called “Reheat”, never warmed up to “AB”. To you and yours have a safe and quiet Christmas and Boxing Day. Ciao !

[@jonb5747]

Hi Tim, I don’t expect you to remember this as it was in the dark days of covid lockdowns but I was the guy who emailed you recommending you take a look at the warthog. ( 747 captain U.K. airline furloughed as the fleet was shutdown overnight and flight simming the Hawk in XP and watching your videos to keep my hand in. I’m now on 787s) I also mentioned the trident tornado to you I think, so was delighted you later released a video flying the tornado with the warthog stick. I’m glad you got the thrustmaster set up. Anyway the KZbin algorithm just pointed me at this video so I was again delighted to hear you’re still using the warthog and have been happy with it. Anyway , all the best, have a good Christmas. Jon

[@Luminoso72]

Have fun with the Winwing Support. Other than that, these are really good sticks. There is no motor in the base, just for your info. No Force Feedback, just a rumble pack in the stick.

[@FastJetPerformance]

Yes, I realise that now, it does seem pretty ineffective.

[@Luminoso72]

@@FastJetPerformanceit‘s enough and it‘s some feedback, especially when in vr. buy the damper and the cam kit and maybe the extension, you can tune these sticks in every possible way. you know how a real jet stick feels, i don‘t.

[@supanova88]

You can also combine the Warthog grip with a Virpil WarBRD base.

[@johnmclean6498]

I have the Winwing F 18 throttle set and the two "sliders" you said were a bit flimsy and you might use for radar are actually very good for RPM (prop pitch) and Mixture on WW2 aircraft. They can be bound in Axis settings to the respective levers. Work great for Merlins on P 51, Spit and Mossie. I am more than happy with the Winwing stuff.

[@daciandraco6462]

Tim, welcome to the Proper-HOTAS-club! You will absolutely love the Orion hardware.

[@KillerKev1961]

I started out with TM Warthog HOTAS and also got the TM F-18 stick. I just got the WW F-16 HOTAS set. I tried setting up and binding the throttle-it all works except the actual thrust and AB doesn't work which is strange. Im going away for the holidays and when I get back Ill try and figure it out. The WW stick is so smooth and precise and feels fantastic. However I have to toss it out there that the TM peripherals are very good and I have ZERO complaints. The only complaint about the WW HOTAS is there are no instructions at all to put it together, but there were plenty of vids here on youTube so thats not a problem.

[@FastJetPerformance]

Yes, I struggled with the build but the KZbin vids were good as you say.

[@andybakr]

Great review Tim, thanks . Merry Christmas

[@WilliamBugeater64Simpson]

I have used the Warthog throttle and F-16 Stick for years and love that HOTAS. I recently replaced the F-16 with the F-18 stick. Thay are wonderful. Thank you for the VID and your Military Service.

[@theclassicliberal1915]

Everyone remember to set modifiers so you have twice or even 3 times more buttons. The lever is a great modifier and doubles your buttons on your hotas. As well as the pinky button, it’s a great modifier. Same goes for the throttle.

[@Paul-cj5wg]

I Don't think you can adjust the friction on the slides, However they do work well and can be used as three position switches or as a axis using the software. I use them mainly as axis to control lighting as I fly mostly in VR so if I accidently move them fumbling for switches I've not turned something critical on or off.

[@FastJetPerformance]

Good point Paul, good idea, thanks.

[@get_outdoors]

Never understood the the hype regarding metal sticks until I got one secondhand off eBay, just love the feel, I was lucky enough to get the Winwing F18 throttle with detents and Orion 2 F16 stick for £315, going to start my F18 DCS training over Christmas. Great video

[@FastJetPerformance]

That's a great setup, congrats.

[@DanielDrake]

Looking forward to hear how the new stick/throttle and panel goes over the thrustmaster set

[@IGHalstrom]

Love my WinWing kit. It's solid and responsive, and they are full of features. I have the FA18 kit, not the F16, but I know you'll love the throttle setup. I'm keen to know what the stick is like.

[@TheJack4000111]

Merry Christmas Guys

[@pempem8527]

I started with the TM Warthog set up and TPR pedals. I have made the switch to a full Winwing set-up except for the TM TPR pedals(awesome pedals). Personally like the WinWing controls much better, I feel a lot more precise flying the WinWing stuff.

[@bryanbishop2377]

I love the Christmas lights! 🎅🏿

[@bryanbishop2377]

A real phantom's throttle can take both arms to push into burner if it's not in great condition. You have to push them outboard to cross the gate. The Blue Angels had one of their F-4's get stuck in burner once. I like my TM Warthog system.

[@VRTrucker]

Well I have learnt something from you here Tim. I've had the Warthog since 2018 and have a push though detent for reheat, however I never knew it had the idle detent😂

[@FastJetPerformance]

Early Christmas present!

[@86abaile]

Regarding the warthog 2 way switches only counting as one button: You probably already know this, but DCS allows you to assign functions to a button on release now. As for the thrustmaster stuff, the stick gimbal is pretty bad and the pot metal stem on the stick is surprisingly easy to break, but the rest is fine. The main issue is that it's now ancient and is no longer the leader in the field, as such there's no way it can justify the price of it new. The newer thrustmaster stuff is much the same, it just can't justify the price they're asking for it.

[@flybobbie1449]

Have the earlier Warthog. Horrible from centre point with that spring friction plate. Better if removed and have say a bungee cord to centre it.

[@YTB952]

Love your you tube videos, gotta say that I find quantum physics easier to deal with than bloody aircraft controls lol

[@nemisis_wolf]

Agree with most of this vid Tim. Thrustmaster kit is still good, but it is now decades old and in need of a refresh, the Thrustmaster Warthog stick itself is good it's the cup and ball base thats the issue being well out of date and very prone to getting sticky/gritty movement. Looking to get one at a decent second hand price then great, but can't recommend buying new Thrustmaster kit with WinWing/VKB and Virpil having IMHO superior products at similar or better prices. You can't adjust the friction on the sliders unless you want to open it up and add friction somehow but I've found that they are fine as they are for use as flap lev or for cockpit exterior lighting adjustment not good for Radar elevation use TBH, best use the TDC on the F-15 throttle grip for that as trying to adjust those when facing up in combat when you really want to have both hands on the flight controls is not ideal.

[@JerBearTeo]

Really liked the Orion2 with F-18 grip but have moved to a VKB STECS. Might want to nyogel the throttle axis for extra smoothness. The Orion2 is a great product and I do miss the functions that I've lost moving to a full VKB setup.

[@MattJones675GR9]

Tim. DCS now allows you to assign buttons and switches in the off positions :)

[@Mark_Point]

This. Total game changer for the TM stuff. Those on off switches now usable as they should be.

[@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations]

Is this when they went from ‘Special’ to ‘On else Off’? I have ‘Two Way’ for lights and the Boat grey button on the Warthogs throttle to a ‘3-way’ input. I need to cycle the buttons I have mapped like this at least once when I’m in the cockpit for them to be recognised and in the correct position.

[@Mark_Point]

@@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations No, on the drop down for button bindings there are options for the same button number but with _off. That allows you to set another binding to the off position. For a three way with an off middle you set both of the other buttons off side to the middle and it works like a full three way.

[@CalliesFamily]

I went from a crappy Saitek S52 to the WW Orion 2 with the F18 grips and the F16 stick with the shark kit. Hope you're very technically minded as mine worked fine to begin with. Then when I added the shark kit (I see yours is already fixed), the wire connector snapped and they had to send out a replacement printed circuit board. Fidgety fix.... then when I added the finger lift kit for the throttles, the additional lift broke the cable to the grips, rendering the grips useless. They sent out replacement grips, didn't work. They sent out a replacement base unit and then finally had to replace the cables. Again all DIY with limited help from WW (overnight email exchanges and having to send photos of blinking lights etc). Took 3 months back and forth before I got it all working fine. The units are good and solid, but by god..... be SUPER careful making any changes, as you have to carry out the repairs yourself.... and keep paying the shipping costs back and forth for replacement parts....

[@rwhunt99]

I come from an X-56 and went to the F-16ex, and just got the Orion 2 with the F-15E grips. I really enjoy them and much better controllers than than the X-56 which I had for over four years. My stick broke ans I got the F-16ex and fell in love with it and decided to replace my X-56 throttle also and I love it also. I am not a reviewer and I tend to adapt to the controls I have, but I will say the Wart Hog was good in it's day, but they never updated it and raised the price to about double only because they could. I don't believe any controller is ideal, namely because you use the same controller for all your aircraft which might have different set ups, so it takes some practice. That said, you have to look at the quality of the parts and Winwing spares no expense there. I like you can switch certain hats from digital to axis , and back if you wish, that makes it very versatile.The difference might be the Wart Hog throttle is all metal box while the Winwing is a combination aluminum and plastic box, but well done. No fan boy here, fly what makes you happy, I do.

[@KernitTheFont]

Just couldn't get on with the stiction on the TM joystick, although I really loved how robust the Warthog combo felt. It felt like they'd stripped it out of a real plane. I sent it back and got the Winwing Warthog combo and it's 100 times better. The only downside is that the throttle base is too light, so it slides across my deskmat when adding power. I have to flip my mousemat over to the sticky rubber get some grip. Regarding the sliders, I use the first one for view zoom when my hand isn't on the 15E throttle pinky wheel view zoom.

[@ChrisJones555.]

Merry Christmas all 🎉🎄

[@jameshewitt8828]

Merry Christmas to the best looking tonka warrior

[@jamesmcd71]

I have had my F16 Winwing throttle and stick for 3 months now. It's 100x better than everything else on the market. I actually don't like saying this. It's kinda sad that a company like TM, who has been in this business for decades, can allow a no-name Chinese start-up to produce a product that is so much better in every way.

[@FastJetPerformance]

Thanks James.

[@RW-zn8vy]

You clearly haven’t used Virpil or vkb both blow winwing out of the water but to back you, thrust master is nothing but a scam and winwing aren’t a no name company.

[@danGigantic]

You mentioned the base has a motor in it, does that mean when you trim, the stick will follow? or is it still the same where you have to centre the stick after trimming?

[@FastJetPerformance]

It's actually just a rumble pack so simulate gun etc, pretty ineffective and the stick just trims like a normal stick.

[@_od_7825]

Using the Target Software you can assign key presses to each switch position on the Warthog throttle. I did mine years ago and I won’t switch it for anything else. Modified my stick with an extension, then put a leather gator from a VW Polo around it (£4 off eBay) and it’s never got dirty or gritty. Would it be possible to share a link to the throttle detent?

[@powleym]

@FastJetPerformance, would be great to get an update on your WinWing panels and controls when you have some time.

[@Moggery]

The warthog throttle needs to be used, i didnt use mine for about a year and when i tried to use it again it died on me. Fantastic bit of kit otherwise.

[@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations]

Yeah, my grey axis on the throttle doesn’t work as well as it did. The top part of the axis isn’t recognised anymore but I just put this down to it being a petentiometer and not a HALL magnet sensor. I’ve been on and off DCS since 2019/ 2020. I also noticed the stick well… sticks, especially when trying to maintain 6 or 4 G’s in a turn. Maybe it’s getting worse. That Orion base looks good on this video though. I didn’t know it had increased tension and vibration. I’m going to look at reviews of it and see what it’s all about.

[@incargeek]

In the real thing, do you feel any yaw when you wiggle wiggle or is it negligable?

[@FastJetPerformance]

No, the airflow is too great for the rudders to have any effect at speed (above 300 kts) but the stick is quite sensitive.

[@FastJetPerformance]

Sorry, just seen the wiggle wiggle is referencing the throttles - no, there's no yaw from doing that and I only do that in formation or tanking.

[@OnceShy_TwiceBitten]

Can you do a compare of these to the new thrustmaster AVA base??? it's center is a lot better too.

[@windshearahead7012]

which grip feels more realistic? thrustmaster a10c or winwing? in terms of button stiffness and stuff like that

[@FastJetPerformance]

Thrustmaster has stiffer buttons so, in a sim pit, I'd have that one, BUT for everyday simming - there are a lot more buttons on the WinWing and you won't get RSI injuries with the WinWing. Also, the WinWing 16EX does vibrate through the software which is a nice touch. I've always said that I really like the Thrustmaster and will always keep it.

[@InFlightsim22]

Nice video. Did you ever do a set of reviews on your new equipment? I currently use the warthog throttle and I'm interested in switching over to the Orion 2 with F-15EX grip. Did you find the change over worth it?

[@erfho8y]

What pedals are you using, sir? MFG? Virpil? Or somethung else?

[@FastJetPerformance]

MFG Crosswind V3 :)

[@erfho8y]

@@FastJetPerformance nice, thx! Defintely copying your setup. Once I have the funds available.

[@happee_meal8302]

Honest opinion now Tim 😂, what about the Thrustmaster T1600M FCS pack? Stick, throttle and pedals in one box for 180 quid, yeah its cheap AF, but it's got me going in DCS for less than half the price of a Warthog

[@FastJetPerformance]

I used that setup for about 2 years, as long as you edit the control curves in game, it's a really really good setup indeed. I still have mine as back up!

[@r4dio4ctiv3man9]

Well honestly, imo the best is to combine peripherals from various manufactors as there is none that has the best in all categories. I choosed what i think is the best of each and endet up with the WinWing Super Taurus F/A-18 Throttle (now with F-15EX grips), WinWing MFDs, Slaw device Viper RX V2 pedals, Virpil T50CM2 base with extension and Realsimulator F-18 CGRH grip for center stick, a Realsimulator FSSB-R3 Ultra force sensitive base with Realsimulator F-16 SE SGRH for sidestick and Cubesim Hornet UFC. Yes, freakin´ expensive, but imo definately worth the price. Will get the Realsimulator Hornet stick extension in the nearby future as well.

[@matt-f1c]

Great video as usual. Can you not have a word with Heat Blur or someone and figure out a GR4 add on for DCS pretty please :-) it would be a massive deal

[@FastJetPerformance]

Aviastorm are making a Tornado soon hopefully.

[@AndyWragg]

So 4 months in, what do you think of the WinWing control system? The GrimReaper guys seemed to like it from watching them.

[@FastJetPerformance]

Not as robust as Thrustmaster but it has a lovely feel to the controls - more buttons although some are frustratingly placed and hard to reach when the throttles are fully fore/aft but WinWing is cheaper and seems like a good buy. IF I had to choose as a newbie, I would probably go WinWing BUT if I was building a proper simpit I would go Thrustmaster.

[@Neds_Severed_Head]

I'm looking at getting into DCS soon. I've been looking at the Logitech X56. Is that good enough to start with?

[@alexshmalex]

Looking forward to hearing more on how the WinWing performs in due course. Not keen on throwing cash at the CCP for it mind.

[@mattgn39]

Yeah, them there cards. Did you leave them out again? Your memory mate, gettin' old.

[@tacair4271]

The Thrustmaster Warthog throttle control board is garbage! I have had to buy/replace 3 different throttles in the last year! The first one lasted 4 years and the other two died back to back. TM would NOT warranty this and told me to buy a new board from them and replace it myself. I sent one back through Amazon. Ridiculous.

[@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations]

The grey axis on my Thrustmaster throttle has died on me. I didn’t use it for about a month and now the top part of the axis isn’t recognised and it bounces around. I’ve had to unbind it. I’ve had mine for about four years. Time to go with WinWing maybe.

[@michaelmiklosofficial]

Does the job

[@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations]

My Warthog Throttle (the grey axis) doesn’t recognise the top part of the axis anymore. I’m guessing it doesn’t have a HALL sensor like the two throttle axis. Maybe some dust or cotton went inside and broke it. I’ve had it for four year’s. I have a ten cm extension for the stick but it’s in between my legs. I’ve been looking at things lately and I was going to upgrade my CPU from i9-12900K to i9-14900K. Or maybe a Buttkicker. Or go from 32 to 64Gig of CPU RAM. I’m almost always CPU limited when I’m down below 1 Kilometre in multiplayer. I did look at the WinWing line. Maybe in April.

[@debonair6764]

I had this issue too. I emailed TM support and after some exchanges they sent me some instructions about opening up and checking it is possible that the problem is caused by dirt in the potentiometer that registers the slider's movements. So I took a break from DCS for a year and recently got back in again with a PS4 controller instead.

[@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations]

@@debonair6764 Thanks. I might have a go at looking inside. It’s an important axis for Radar height for me. I have an X-Box controller plugged in for controlling the radio controlled missiles (RB05’s) on the Viggen. I’ve just been looking at the WinWing line and a lot of it is out of stock anyway. My Warthog flight sticks been playing up as well. Sticking at the gimbal and the buttons for trimming don’t register long presses. If I press a little too hard to trim it stops the input. So I’ve had to swap the trimming button and use it for quick button presses only.

[@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations]

@@debonair6764 You couldn't fix your Warthog?

[@debonair6764]

@@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations not yet I have to plan if I do want to open it up. So I just keep ignoring it.

[@British_Dragon-4K-Simulations]

@@debonair6764 I just looked. Theirs screws on top.

[@AdmV0rl0n]

Real idiots fly by keyboard! Nice vid!

[@kazansky22]

Fssb vs all!

[@dunbar555]

now try virpil bases and laugh !

[@xINTENSORx]

The only thing Thrustmaster does well is its TPR pedals. In terms of quality, WinWing destroys Thrustmaster.

[@FastJetPerformance]

Interestingly we are seeing significant quality control issues with WinWing in my school. You might get more buttons, it might look cooler and they might be a little cheaper but WinWing is not built to last and returns are an issue too.

[@buzzlite3]

TM is past it WW all the way.

[@ARFF1Tampa]

Winwing never sends verification email so you can't buy anything. Plus, shipping for rudder pedals was over $120? Yeah, f'_ no.