Finding Out if Disc Color Affects Stability

[@KevinJames90]

Worked in injection molding, and colors run in a percentage. Like say black can be as little as 2% dye, white usually starts as 4%, and red can be 7% plus. All depending on plastic type and what saturation you want. This is what I believe causes variations. (Note I worked with mostly polypropylene and high impact polystyrene so it’s not a 1 to 1 comparison)

[@nathanzucker1907]

Good point, I think you're onto something

[@TommiKalavainen]

ive heard that different colors cool off differently thus giving different shapes and fligh characteristic.

[@BATAngTABA]

Yup depends on the raw material. Jesse has documented this well at Trash Panda'a youtube videos.

[@dwdodgelover]

Can confirm, I bag both a black base line Inner core, as well as a premium for this reason. I like the feel of the baseline for putting better, but once it gets hot the plastic gets super soft.

[@ReaperThugX]

Tomas from L64 has also said in videos that the colored plastic they mix in affects the final product. It’s not that the color makes identical discs fly differently, it’s that the color prevents them from making every disc fly identically, if that makes sense Same thing happens in tennis strings. Plastic is very fickle

[@ScroDiddly]

No just that, different colors can only take colors a certain way. Some hard and others softer. There are so many variables to a disc you get into runs of it and they all fly differently. By a lot. I own wraiths you wouldn't never guess by the flight but they are all brand new. It's cool. But expensive to get what you need.. I like to use the same discs with different plastics to help with my memory.

[@ScroDiddly]

@@ReaperThugX t

[@xcfjdyrkdtulkgfilhu]

I can believe slight batch variation, and different batches being used for different colors. But a purple run from October might be different again from a purple run from November.

[@AndresWeber]

Thank God you did the TD, I unbagged it almost immediately since it didn't act anything like the numbers, but this was a good reinforcement! Thanks for these as always Greg!

[@micahwingell]

The run of discs that started this with Discmania was the first run of the “Italian c-line” DD3’s. There was a video where Simon was saying there may certainly be colors were more stable because they consistently had more dome

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Yea I think it all makes its way back to Simon, I never heard anyone talk about it before, and similarly, no one talked about MVP color stability pre-Simon's Time-Lapse either. Hard to say for sure, so much of disc golf is word of mouth passed on a hundred times.

[@Darthyeetrous]

Color doesn't change stability for sure. It can indicate the stability because most manufacturers will do the same color at the same time (easier to pour all 1 color in the hopper than 1 disc worth each time). IE all the purple discs from a run will be made at the same time and have similar characteristics because of the environmental factors. Thus all purple discs made in that run could be more over stable. All blue discs made a few days later could have different environmental factors and turn out more understable. I think the biggest thing for stability (in the same plastic) is the parting line. The dome is the other factor. So that'd be my suggestion for another video, in the same plastic, which causes the biggest difference in flight? Dome or parting line? And bonus points if you can find a domey disc and a flatter disc in the same plastic with the same parting line.

[@nickclark1669]

I feel like weight has a big effect also.

[@bigmacc882]

I’m a firm believer that color indirectly causes changes in stability. I believe that the different color cause different density values in the plastics which then causes the things you brought up in the beginning like more or less dome than other colors. It might also have something to do with how they cool like a white disc will most likely cool a bit faster than a black disc will if they are both brought off the production line at the same time

[@gfuqua70]

This is correct. Color does not directly effect stability. The way dye changes the plastic characteristics creates slight changes in shape, cooling etc... thus changing the flight characteristics slightly. So technically color could be used as an identifier to help gauge the consistency of flight tendencies within a closely made run/model/plastic. You're either a pro or a plastic nerd! Go nerds! Thanks 6 sided!

[@bigmacc882]

@ I’m no where near a pro with my low 800 rating lol, but most definitely a science nerd. Knowledge is everywhere, just have to listen and learn.

[@williamtrowbridge4868]

The differential cooling by color is definitely a factor, but if different dye colors really made a noticeable difference in density, I think manufacturers would know and would have adjusted accordingly.

[@Element108Hs]

While I totally agree with your conclusion, Greg, I think the better test of this question would’ve been to, for each mold, get MULTIPLE discs of each color. When you’re only testing one disc in each color, it’s hard to say whether the differences in shape are just disc-to-disc variation or are somehow linked with the color of the plastic. Testing multiple discs per mold in each color should be able to distinguish those possibilities.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

I think you might be right, I think when I sourced these discs I got fixated on testing multiple colors but never stopped to ask why. This is probably something we will come back to in the future.

[@FunkeytownYT]

Regarding a per-run thing. As an example of color affecting overstability, when the C-line CD1 was released, the early runs in WHITE were not actually produced in what we think of as discmania C-line. They are a plastic blend much closer to Lat64 Opto, and as such, they feel much softer and fly less stable. And im not comparing beat in versions of these to newer stuff. I own 2 of these white CD1s, and 2 red FIRST RUN versions which are significantly stiffer and more overstable. One of my two white CD1's sat on the shelf for a year unthrown, and I was able to test it in a fresh state against these other CD1's to confirm this. Likewise, some of the intial runs of YELLOW FD were significantly more overstable than their red and purple counterparts. I had 2 of each of the 3 colors, and asked friends to throw them without telling them what to expect to confirm this. These particular runs of Yellow FD are actually a lot more yellow than the modern more green-tinted yellow we see in C-line today.

[@Nardath]

something about variances in plastics and the very small changes in production required to accomodate said differences might create subtile diffences in the end result, hence the differences between runs for the same reason.

[@MullinatorDiscGolf]

I haven’t noticed the difference in their main line but the Active Line I and many others definitely have. The Astronaut specifically was drastically different: blue was actually useable and would get a full flight while yellows & pinks were like ultra fast rollos. That was back in the first 6 months or so of their release so it might not hold true today 🤷‍♂️ I think color does matter but only in identification, like the MD1s in this run white/orange were definitely more stable but the next run that might change to Blue/Green/etc.

[@nickfotopoulos5323]

Different colors release from the mold differently. Colors that release easily come out of the mold at a higher temp and rapid cooling exaggerates their stability because the rim can draw in as it cools outside the mold. Other colors have to send more time cooling inside the mold and experience less shrinkage. The reason this is hard to detect is because there are lots of other factors that impact cooling and can mask some of the changes. Dayglow/Chartreuse bleed color on to adjacent disc over time. I think the substance they add to the plastic to make that color affects mold release and that is why you tend to see bigger differences between dayglow and other color disc. But ultimately I think color is one of the smallest factors and that the run to run variations are waaaay more significant.

[@albiblow]

Can confirm. I collect CB3s. Yellows are SIGNIFICANTLY more flippy than the rest. Red is absolute beef. But yes, it’s a specific run in a specific color. Maybe there was some different weather that day while running that color, but it’s how that particular run turned out. But the parting line heights are different between colors (but consistent with the same color) in this run.

[@aftertheburial420]

fully agree its not about the color exactly. its more about the overall shape. like i noticed wraiths, domey ones flip and turn slowly but still have some fade at the end. flat wraiths flip up faster and turn forever hardly any fade back. but i will say some colors cool differently and can cause certain colors to have dome vs flat. would love to see how weights can effect arm speed...got a speed gun?

[@nakkenakuttaja5224]

Color can affect stability, because some colors can affect how the plastic behaves. Color ingredient can change how plastic cools and that can make some discs of same molds more flat or dome... least that what i have heard from some disc maker/designer 🤔

[@maxsvedberg5162]

The crystal sparkle fierce flies different in different colors. Bought a clear one that had some flip and turn but then came back at the end and when I lost that one I bought a pink one that had zero flip at all. The pink one flew like a md3 and the clear one flew like a md1

[@FabbeBa]

First time I got to try the C-Line MD3 (discmania made) it was a shock to me that the purple colour was so much more stable than my green/ yellow ones. Colour stability Purple - Red - Yellow - Green/Blue - Pink (from my testing)

[@ogdiscgolfer]

Great stuff as always! Sidenote: ​​Did you hear the shout out that Marques Brownlee's producer gave you on Staggered Stance this week? Good stuff.Excited to meet you at the Expo!

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Look forward to seeing you at the expo! I've actually talked to Andrew, I was blown away to hear from him and to hear he was a fan and of course love that he's willing to give us that shoutout!

[@mikethomas5451]

1st happy you willl be at the NE expo, (disc East) congratulations. 2nd I can believe color can affect stability due to the plastic being slightly different in molecular structure from the pigment. However that it varies more per particular run to run rather than necessarily color to color and that only top level players could really tell or expose that difference. Good video and attempt at the theory.

[@MK-ql1yn]

Thomas Ekström, discdesigner at Latitud have sad that transparent (see through) color is often more stable. He have designed a load of disc fore trilogi so i believe it.

[@MK-ql1yn]

But he also says that other things play a bigger role, just as you mentioned.

[@villekonttinen5018]

The reason stated for this was that clear plastic has less colorants/other blended plastics in it, hence the disc being more of just "pure" plastic and less of what gives them color and opaqueness which can have effect on density, firmness of the plastic and the shape outcome of the cooling process.

[@jessehenderson836]

My dad’s company injection molds millions of parts every year in varying plastic types. He has a full team of plastics engineers to manage every step of the injection process. Plastic is greatly affected by so many different variables. They stopped using a handful of colors because the cooling rate led to the components being more brittle. They make medical devices so everything has to be perfect. Long story short, plastic is incredibly complicated and color absolutely has an effect on how the plastic cool, its density, and how durable it is.

[@H00pster66]

I think lat 64 colors are different stability pretty shure i just picked me up another lat64 diamond karet edition .

[@ringbrookstrings2868]

Check out trash panda's video on this topic. He goes into how the settings on injection machines vary depending on color where certain colors require more or less heat and pressure during the manufacturing process. He at least believes this is what's responsible for certain discs from certain manufacturers having different colors trending more or less stable.

[@GabboDk]

My friend had green jet that flew understable, I picked up a yellow that was straight to stable, I picked up a green one flew like his

[@A.M03]

As a guy that throws nothing but discmania, I would say I thought for a long time color did affect the flight. Few mystery boxes later though it is 100% the dome or flatness of each disc, have multiple discs in different colors varying dome and flatness that fly different. Some runs come out flat and some with dome, it is what it is.

[@jessehenderson836]

The thing is, plastic color has an effect on density and cooling rate. So when the disc comes out of the mold and starts cooling, the rate it cools at is either going to give it more dome or less.

[@lorensilbaugh7584]

I think this could be tested over and over and the arguments would stay largely the same for all sides. I lean more toward your side, with perhaps the few outliers that are due largely to other characteristics of the manufacturing process. I have another suggestion for a video along similar lines, how much does beating up (or in) a disc make it understable? Is there a limit to how understable it can get? And a really niche question, is there any truth to the lore of a Kasta Falk getting more stable after getting beat in. I would love to see your sciency approach to this.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Hey loving these questions and I can actually answer a couple of them. Back when we hit 5k subscribers, we did a sort of endurance challenge of throwing a disc 5,000 times. Because it would take so long to do that having to chase the disc, we simulated it hitting the ground/road/trees/wall 5,000 times (mostly my basement wall) and we took a Helio Sirius Scorpius (Halo Destroyer) from brand new beefy/overstable to insanely understable, nearly a roller from a hyzer release. In this specific case, I think there was a limit, because a side by side comparison showed that disc was now a completely different shape than it was when we started. I've heard the same thing about the Kastaplast Falk, very curious if its true, but I could imagine it working if there's something unique about the disc shape and how it deforms over time that makes it more overstable instead of less.

[@abrahamnagy7882]

If you really wanted to test this, you should get a much larger sample size of a few molds, having multiple of each color. Obviously this would be true for any of your tests, like plastic types, weight, etc., but maybe an idea to use

[@jannejaakkola5836]

I don't think anyone seriously thinks that the color itself impacts the flight. However, it can indicate the stability differences stemming from other factors (dome and more importantly PLH). When you mold discs you generally do them one color at a time so when you change the color it becomes almost like a new run. A different colored plastic can have slightly different composition and the environmental parameters in the production site can vary. These variables don't really impact how the disc is molded, but they do have an impact on how the disc cools down after it's been molded and during this cooldown phase the shape of the disc can change dramatically changing the flight characteristics in the process. So I don't think you can create a scale saying that, say, red color is the most OS. You can however sometimes say that out of the first run Graces the teal one is less OS than the pink one. Such correlations can be strong within one run of discs while being negligible on another. PS. Hasn't TD been available for 10+ years? Or is the Swedish TD a new disc?

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Appreciate your comment. With respect to the TD, you're right, the entire Originals line has been around for awhile but after Discmania split with Innova, they had to make new molds of those old discs as Innova owned the molds themselves. In fact, Innova has been making those old molds into new discs, like the Dark Rebel, Power Disc and so on. The "new" TD is the "Reinvented" TD as Discmania calls it, and was only recently approved by the PDGA

[@ScroDiddly]

I throw 4 wraiths, own more but they all fly differently but for different reason, mainly plastic types.

[@ivobezuijen2969]

The only objectively difference I can mention is concerning my four lat 64 Kristin Tattar opto-ice grand slam explorers. The facts: - Two are pink coloured - Two are bright (almost neon) yellow coloured - all four were bought at the same time - I do not know if they are of different runs, but they are a limited run to celebrate KT's 4 major wins in one year. (There are actually two versions, one which was sold seperately and the other was sold in her personal gift box. The ones I'm talking about concern the individually sold ones, with a howling wolf only, without the diamond shape in the background). - The visual differences of the shape of the discs compared to each other is non-existent as far as I can tell. No different parting line, no difference in dome or anything. - The pink explorers have a straight flight with a mild dependable fade at the end of a 330 to 350 ft flight, thrown with the slightest of hyzer release angle - The yellow explorer, when thrown roughly the same, will flip up and turn over, most of the time not even fade at the end, even burning over often when thrown with 85% power. While I will immediately acknowledge that consistency between throws is never 100%, I often use my explorers to warm up and simply throw about 350 ft, knowing it's a straight shot with a smooth dependable fade at the end. Without the pressure of needing to throw a shot at a target, but just generally throw a certain distance on a field, my throwing technique and release are usually fairly similar and consistent. it is within the limit of these parameters that I can safely and confidently say that my yellow KT explorers are much more understable than my pink KT explorers. However, whether this is related to the colour or simply the run, I cannot tell. The difference is notable enough to use them for different shots and they are still consistantly different when thrown on the same shot, so I select them by colour depending on the shot I need, but that's as far as I can go. I would love to know if other players who bought the yellow KT opto-ice explorers (without the diamond in the background) found them unusually understable compared to regular explorers (of which I have several myself) which show a flightpattern similar to the pink KT explorers. It remains interesting to know if colour does affect flight numbers, but if it does, I'm pretty sure it won't be cross-company as each of the companies will have slightly different plastics.

[@daveprue3618]

when Cyclones came out color definitely made a difference, the darker the more over stable while lighter colores (pink or white) were under stable.

[@everettevans3317]

Was waiting for another old timer to mention Cyclones. We were super judgmental based on what color Cyclone someone pulled out of their bag. "Oooooh, that guy throws black Cyclones!" No clue if the difference was actually due to PLH or dome, because of the color of the plastic, because I didn't know anyone in the 90s who new that level of detail on discs.

[@ruschj00]

I can't make it through your videos without wanting to correct you so many times. Color has been a topic of stability forever. It was pretty well known that discraft discs back in the day greatly varied depending on the color. It followed the rainbow with the red side of the spectrum being the most overstable and the purple side being the least. Innova has also had color stability. Look at Calvin Halo destroyers for example. The second year the White and Yellow rims were hogs while the black and blue were flippy. Also, your 3 reasons don't even include what changes the stability the most which is the parting line height. The reason color can impact stability is because the cooling rate changes on the different colors which then changes the parting line height. The higher the parting line, the higher the stability. I swear you just make a bunch of stuff up and talk like its facts.

[@DiscGolfDouche]

You're partially right, partially wrong. The reason for color talk is exactly what you pointed out. You noted the blue md1 and white md1 were flatter. The reason color affects stability is because it affects dome. Does color affect the entire process of molding and drying? I believe so, which in return affects dome and stability. It's easier to say a blue md1 is more stable than to say, the blue md1 is less domey because the blue plastic forms and dries different therefore making them less domey. Put a black disc and a white disc in the sun, tell me which melts first.

[@myronmiller4754]

Greg is right, color doesnt affect the flight. BUT....the theory is that the color affects the shape/parting line height/dome of a disc by different colors cooling more slowly or more quickly than other colors. The type of plastic [transparent premium, vs. opaque premium, vs. lower grades] will also affect in the same way, aside from "beat-in" time. See Calvin's take on his 23 destroyers with Eric Oakley..."Is That Good?"

[@trevorwischhusen2869]

I lost my cosmic neutron wave. It was over stable. I replaced it with a blue one which was not over stable. So I got another red one and it was over stable. I tried other colors and the only one that was over stable was the red ones.

[@Exploitiv]

Color absolutely matters. You should have weighed all the disc on a scale before throwing also and bend them to see witch is more firm versus flexible

[@erikdybeck8917]

I dont know about stability, but red ALWAYS goes faster!

[@artotunkkari9684]

When essence came couple years ago, there were massive difference in flight between colours.

[@styxkeeper]

I'm quite certain color affects a discs durability atleast. Axioms red rimmed discs are notoriously more durable than anything else

[@tikimurtaugh4919]

I have a gray td and a pink td both same weight and the gray one is significantly more stable

[@MikeKrueger-c7k]

The time the disc sets or cools off in the mold makes a disc flat to more dome

[@Disc_golphin]

More forehand videos!

[@SixSidedDiscs]

Definitely trying to include more forehand related stuff, a big upcoming video has equal backhand/forehand coverage :D

[@blahrendsen]

I want a patch

[@triplespace007]

Haven't made it through the intro but was instantly sad when it was all Discmania. I feel like the research has already been done for them.

[@Kauppamopo]

white c-line is underrated

[@theLizardof0z]

I'll trust Simon Lizotte. If he says color affects stability, I'll take his word for it.

[@Adenty989]

Yellow discs go OB more then any other color

[@limessied9337]

What you are saying at minute 8: thats exactly why the colors DO matter. When cooling down, the different colors affect the plastic in a slight way that some colors cool down and are flat, some have a dome. thats the reason they fly differently and you basically had it, just came to the wrong conclusion in my opinion (And a lot of others too)

[@elichristopherson7661]

I’ve heard that pink discraft Z nukes are just a touch more overstable that your average Z nuke

[@JaredRichey-ly9qr]

Pink is supposed to be most overstable

[@4dwyn]

I think the only perfect way to test these theories is to get the disc golf machine. Opinions of random disc golfers are a mixed bag. When someone complains that an overstable high speed mold is flippy and they're only getting 250', that's a glaring form issue. The color isn't more or less stable, you just suck lol

[@SixSidedDiscs]

I love the Ditto Bot, really appreciate the work I've seen from other channels, and I have huge respect for what they can design and build. From my perspective, there's something something to be said for experienced disc golfers getting their hands on a disc, feeling it, throwing it enough to understand it. Obviously I know that isn't 100% accurate but its certainly better than nothing. Maybe one day in the future we'll be able to get something like that, who knows.

[@patrickflanigan951]

caleb is one of the lowest throwers I have ever seen....anywhere between 3-10 ft off the ground. Personally I think we would see more flight is thrown a bit higher. It's so low, it is sometimes hitting ground before you get the full flight.

[@SixSidedDiscs]

This particular location/day was not helpful, we are scouting new locations because the one we've used for the last year or more is no longer available (construction, lack of course maintenance, etc). I think I found a location I like that will give us a better, longer flight, just haven't been out to it to record yet.

[@TheGiraffehead]

This was not a well run test. If you wanted to know if a color was more stable you should be testing multiples within a color vs multiples within another color. Not one of each. All you have done is thrown some discs (thank Caleb!). So yes, that test was pointless because you ran a pointless test.

[@twmccoy100]

Discmania's newer discs (made in Sweden, not the Innova ones) are definitely beefy. I don't really think it's a color thing. They also don't seem to glide all that well. The clear C line plastic is gorgeous, but doesn't have very good flight characteristics.

[@HonduDan]

....Wanna sell me that pearly Orc? It's old, used, looks a little worn, I'll give you $15 for it 😁