Finding the perfect saddle height and the "Exposed Seatpost Complex"

My personal experience with the saddle height problem and how I managed to get it wrong at first by falling for the high saddle myth or more precisely the "Exposed Seatpost Complex". I eventually managed to get it right, but it requires time and progressive adjustment. When it's right it feels great, with full control of the pedal stoke and hip stability.
For help and knowledge I watched a lot Bike Fit Tuesday videos with Bike Fit James on Francis Cade excellent channel / franciscccccc
Another good source of information is Veloharmony / z8eldred with an extensive video library on bike fit.
The very best video on the saddle height subject (and extremely consistent with my experience) is on Cam Nicholl's channel (Racing Cycling Academy) / @camnicholls with Neil Stanbury: • A Simple Approach to C...
Thank you for watching.
#cycling #bikefit #saddle #bikesaddle #saddleheight

[@AdamKietLy]

By far the best saddle height tutorial I've seen. You took it to another level! Thank you Federico for the video and Thank your wife as well :)

[@fede1275]

Thank you!

[@ozzz3365]

The temptation to take the saddle up too high is so strong in our mind, that seems most of us are doing it without even knowing that we riding too high. Once you lower a bit the saddle (5-10 mm), you suddenly feel so good! No more of that uneasy feeling of ballet dancer, pedaling on your tow. No more sacrificing the control on the bike. Less back pains, less neck pains and even less hands/wrists pain. The power from your legs seems more balanced, because the pedaling cycle becomes rounder and not 'up and down' hammering. Well, i have to tell you the feeling is amazing and it makes you feel good on your bike again, just the way it was when you were a kid riding on you BMX to the sea (without garmin yeh yeh..). Thanks

[@fede1275]

Well described!!

[@ozzz3365]

@@fede1275 thanks Fed, you jave helped me to fully understand the saddle height principle!

[@aintnobodygottime4dat]

Brilliant....all the 'experts' talking about millimetres here and there....It's about body/feel awareness not numbers....nice one👍🏻

[@fede1275]

Thank you, it definitely worked for me!

[@edwardallan197]

I have watched all the seat height videos. This is a winner for clear explanations & imagery, ( 'chopping motion', pressure on foot, for example). Things anyone can sense & evaluate. Thank you!

[@fede1275]

Thank you Edward, I'm happy you liked it!!

[@jag3384]

Best explanation I ever heard on this subject. (I think I've likely got my saddle a smidge too high and will check it based on what's been explained here.)

[@fede1275]

Thank you, I also watched a lot of Bike Fit James videos and Neill Stanbury's on Cam Nicholls' channel, both seem to focus on the risks of a saddle that is too high. It worked for me.

[@ajbarnes777]

Great tutorial! Thanks. For me, it was actually different than most, my problem was the opposite... too low. My thighs were killing me and I felt very low power output. I used the inseam X .883 method and lowered just a tad bit from that number and so far it's working out perfectly.

[@fede1275]

Thank you! I also realised that my sweet spot is slightly lower than the .883 measure. Fine adjustment is always required as to compensate for individual differences.

[@hendipray1016]

That was great explanation federico.. Many people set their seat height too high, so they can copy the pro’s rider.. Which many people forget, that setting seat too high, may damaged their hamstring permanently.. Better slightly lower, rather than too high..

[@fede1275]

Yes, I experienced it first hand and it works.

[@kelumzi]

That was beautifully explained! I too was riding a saddle to high thinking it was better. Nope. Thanks Federico

[@fede1275]

Thank you David, I'm glad you enjoyed it!!

[@brianhancock9409]

Fabulous description of to high and to low I needed this because I had pain in the back of my knee 😊

[@fede1275]

Hope it will work for you, experimenting definitely helps!

[@tonycoleman3795]

Listen... Watched the whole video (rare for me). The best explanation of finding the best saddle height I've seen.. Simple and factual .. Cheers !!!!! 👍👍

[@fede1275]

Thank you, I really appreciate!

[@rudiyeomans247]

Great advice. I stand with my bike between the open door frame.

[@fede1275]

My favourite home studio!

[@kevinrai87]

Thank you. You explained this so well. After watching so many videos about saddle heights, yours make a lot more sense. I will try this

[@fede1275]

Thank you, I hope it works for you. It was a revelation for me.

[@kevinrai87]

@@fede1275 can you make a video about post cycling recovery and what to eat

[@fede1275]

@@kevinrai87 interesting, yes. I don't have yet a specific routine for cycling, but I'm trying to keep protein intake moderate/high and balance out carbs and fats. Will do something in the future!

[@cdovenden]

Thanks for the video. Great explanation about feeling pressure on the pedals and being able to keep control all the way around the pedal stroke (though I would say particularly at the bottom, not feeling the shoe get pulled away from you). Another cue that I've worked on it feeling that you can keep the same pressure on the saddle througout the pedalstroke, you should be able to support a good proportion of your weight on the saddle, to free up your postural muscles and so your legs can focus on turn the pedals. If the saddle is too high, you will find that you can't keep the support from the saddle constant as you will need to shift a little from side to side and put your weight on your feet instead. So I try to focus on that feeling of my body being supported by the saddle fully and throughout the whole pedal cycle. Led to me dropping another 5mm.

[@fede1275]

Great point, this is also connected with the possible saddle sores or discomfort coming from a too high position.

[@valluk32]

Very insightful information on setting saddle height, one of the best I have seen. I know there are lot of numbers in bike fitting but going by how you feel is equally important. Thanks for sharing.

[@fede1275]

Yes, I believe a combined approach works best. Thank you.

[@valluk32]

I also find you other bike videos full of useful information. Keep them coming!

[@fede1275]

@@valluk32 👍👍

[@Nosh_Feratu]

this is such a great video, such a clear explanation, ive been riding for a long time and to be honest there are a lot of key points that I haven't seen other videos mention before... awesome work Federico!!! 👏

[@fede1275]

Thank you, I try to explain these bike fit adjustments the way I understood them and not repeating what is already out there. I also feel cleats position is generally not well explained in the mainstream channels.

[@TAP1992]

Thank you sir, you have just confirmed what I discovered today during my morning zwift ride, I felt my quad were burning and I was indeed visualising my legs as pistons. Lowered the staddle and suddenly there became a balanced muscle use , quads stopped burning , but I could feel obviously other muscle group actually coming into work, also it became easier to maintain high cadence and my 175w segments just felt easier. 😊 I came across this whilst trying to validate my thoughts . Thank you

[@fede1275]

Great 👍👍

[@TAP1992]

I also started with lemond and heel saddle heights. A little more tweaking and I hope to have it settled. Thanks for your time and effort on the channel

[@fede1275]

@@TAP1992 I have also thought about another video connected to this subject, more on the ankle joint

[@colinmatthews5999]

i like the heel on the pedal trick for finding proper knee angle. Not over-extending the knee at bottom of pedal rotation is a lesson I had to learn the hard way, through injury.

[@fede1275]

Ouch, hope it's all good now. It's easy to fall in that trap!

[@ozzz3365]

Second time im watching it. So so important.! And even now i understand that im sitting too high! My right leg, that is shorter 1-2 cm, is losing the pressure on the pedal when on 5 o'clock. But its so hard for me mentally to lower the saddle. So hard man, even after 10 years of road cycling. Pphhh. Im gona lower it immediately. Many many thanks, your explanation is so good and clear !.

[@fede1275]

Thank you! I understand it's not easy to change position after a long time. It was easier for me as I started experimenting when I had not been cycling for a long time. You can try small increments and see how it goes I guess.

[@karlengellenner8364]

Federico, Bravo! I am new to bicycling and have watched many videos on set up and seat height, but for the most part these address mainly the geometry of the bike and how to fit yourself into those measurements. Your approach, of using the feel of your muscels and pressure on the pedals brings the individual cyclists body measurements into the process in a way using simple measurements misses completely. Best video on this topic I've seen.

[@fede1275]

Thank you so much! I believe the measurements need to be a starting point, the fine adjustment has to happen on the individual feel. In this case experience from other sports help in understanding the muscle utilisation. I feel some tutorials rely on the measurements too much, trying to make it too "scientific".

[@jeandaigneault6667]

Wow by far the best tutoriel i saw ! A big thanks …..

[@fede1275]

👍 👍 thank you

[@tonypowers123]

Great, on point, to the smallest detail explanation video! Love posts like this. Trying to explain the approach to correct saddle height, would be like telling someone who is interested in fly fishing, go get a pole, tie the hook to the line, put the fly on the hook, and you are good 🥳 mhm, good luck w that! Kudos to awesome, helpful post! Amen to education

[@fede1275]

Thank you, I know I like to stress the point 😄

[@delladog]

Great video for the 'advanced' beginner, well done

[@fede1275]

👍 👍

[@nikolaj781]

Thank you, man. Now im struggling with saddle heght

[@fede1275]

I know, it's not easy to adjust to a new position after a long period. If I had to concentrate on one thing I would set up the saddle height to have a constant pressure on the pedal and not loose the ankle lock towards the bottom of the stroke.

[@tenthai]

Good video analysis. I had the same issue when saddle was too low which cramp or made my quads fatique really fast than it was suppose to specially on the uphills and i couldn't keep up with the group. Best and biggest muscles are in the glutes and hamstrings which don't get fatique easily and they are bigger muscles. I am still learning. Both saddle too low or too high will cause issues from my experience. The heel method of measurement gets you in the right ballpark which i used to measure my saddle height. Thanks for your tips! Great video!

[@fede1275]

You are right, if was thinking about that when few days ago I hit a bump and my seatpost dropped around 3cm. I still could produce a good power, but was getting tired much more. This is because with the saddle too low the quads and glutes are too contracted. However if the saddle is too high you lose the ankle lock and the pressure on the pedal at the bottom of the stroke and the hamstrings recruitment.

[@bobalsan804]

Bravo, good teaching!

[@fede1275]

Grazie, it made a huge difference for me!

[@grantmcalpine6364]

Fantastic video. I actually ended up with a smaller frame for my height but overall, I prefer the feel of it over the 51cm Cervelo. I just had a bike fit and feel the saddle was put a bit too high so I will try to lower a bit and get back to how I felt pre-fit. Thank you.

[@fede1275]

Thank you for watching! To me even 1mm adjustments or less had an influence, so it was worth riding along with a spanner and adjust. 👍👍

[@jerryavalos9610]

My recent bike fit put my saddle too high. I'm just going to do the heel to pedal test and go with that.

[@infinitereason1981]

Plain and simple, easy for us to understand.. Thank you..

[@fede1275]

👍👍

[@infinitereason1981]

@@fede1275 Honestly, I am a nobody who love cycling, just doing my own research by watching here at youtube university, then applying it and into myself.. I found it effective..

[@infinitereason1981]

@@fede1275 The most meaningful saddle height I've watched..

[@fede1275]

@@infinitereason1981 thank you, I had to clarify it in my head first and it has been a game changer for performance and comfort

[@infinitereason1981]

@@fede1275 I believe that is the main concern in this video.. Thank you Federico for this informative tutorials.. I'll be back on this thread after the saddle height testing outdoor.. ^^

[@ArminFejzic]

That's also my mistake, I bought merida scultura 56 cm frame, but the best would be 54. Excellent video!

[@Fremulshmat]

This is a brilliant video, it has given me so much to consider; usually ‘bike fit/ saddle-height’ videos concentrate on matching the dimensions of the individual with the dimensions of the bike but they neglect to take into account how muscle physiology engages with the bodies dimensions. I’ve cycled for years and always imagined the pedal ‘stroke’ as being analogous to the pistons in an engine...even going so far as to believe that ‘pulling up’ with the opposite leg was the key to an efficient stroke (actually I would be interested to hear anyone’s comments about the idea you also pull the pedal up) however the engagement of hams and glutes never occurred to me. Since coming back to cycling after a break of 3 years I am really struggling to get comfortable on a bike and I’m wondering if I was ever comfortable on a bike for the previous 30 years I cycled. Thanks so much for posting.

[@fede1275]

Thank you for your comment! It is incredible the difference it made for me and the power I was able to put down. Sometimes you read everywhere about the correct saddle height and angles, but very few explain why and the effect on muscles recruitment. I agree that you do not pull up on the back stroke, but at the same time it is vital to be able to recruit the hams when moving the pedal from 5 to 7pm. And when pushing down you are able to put the pressure on the pedal with quads and glutes, without the need to reach over with the ankle. Imagine squatting on the tiptoes!

[@tefltoulouse]

Yes I think that's pretty much it. I like the idea of equal pressure on the foot all the way around. Nearly all bike fitters set saddles about 1.5cm too high.

[@bennyliem2131]

The best video for saddle height thanks

[@fede1275]

👍 👍

[@bludog4657]

Thank you Sir for addressing this. I am going to work on that circular motion and adjusting this weekend. All the best from Albuquerque, New Mexico

[@fede1275]

Thank you, hope it will work for you, for me it was a gamechanger. Some other focus more on the downstroke, I fear that might lead to setting the saddle too high.

[@mudvayna]

Very good video. Well explained. I like your humility to talk about cycling. Greetings from Uruguay

[@fede1275]

Thank you so much Rafael, so far but yet just a click away.

[@gautamdas3320]

You are correct, my saddle hight has high and I was doing piston like movement as you said just to look like pro cyclist. What a miserable condition it was, thanks again for clarification that pro ride lower sized bike.

[@fede1275]

Yes, I know 😄. Pros go with the smaller sized ones so the stack is lower and can ride with almost a flat back. That's why the saddle looks so high.

[@iainplumtree1239]

most interesting. i had wondered about saddle height of pros whose knees always look less extended than I ride. now i now why and can experiment again on my bike. thanks, Iain

[@fede1275]

I was surprised as well!

[@RG-vx3tb]

Thanks Federico for explaining this so easily!

[@fede1275]

My pleasure!

[@jbas8465]

Ciao Federico, now that we know how to set saddle height what about saddle for-aft position and saddle angle? We need the complete tutorial package on bike saddle mechanics. Bravo, hai fatto bene a spiegare la tua spiegazione. 👍

[@fede1275]

Grazie mille! I was not much prepared on the fore-aft, I did not want to just copy other tutorials. I did tune it to feel more on top of the bottom bracket, the Canyon already comes with a steep seat angle and a little lay back seatpost.

[@davidhopp]

Perfect! I had the exact same experience and solution! Nicely explained.

[@fede1275]

👍 👍 makes such a difference!!

[@solairedeastora7195]

Nice video!! you explain all my thoughts during the video its incredible haha. Also with a good saddle fit, you should feel the fatigue in whole leg (hams, glutes and quads)

[@fede1275]

Yes, definitely the unbalanced fatigue on the leg is a good indicator of a bad set up for me.

[@cocosaxdr]

Thanks Federico! Another issue that may come up for having your saddle too high. The slight rocking of your hips can then result in saddle sores and bruising of your sit bones. Back on the bike after the off-season and was wondering why I was getting those issues. Lowered my seat and have made things much better. Look forward to more riding to fine-tune my height and setback.

[@fede1275]

Spot on, I wanted to talk about this in a separate video!

[@cocosaxdr]

@@fede1275 It's funny, decades of riding and I make that mistake. But old habits die hard you know. I had in my head, the higher the more power but that's just wrong. And really gave me some trouble on the bum!

[@fede1275]

@@cocosaxdr it's one of the inexplicable myths about cycling, the more pro you are the higher the saddle. Just wrong

[@michaelanderson6764]

Outstanding video. Thanks for making it.

[@fede1275]

I'm happy you appreciated it 👍👍

[@Panos_Sfa_Gr]

Great video! thanks --last weekend i suffered in a long distance ride 140km---wrong saddle height - too high - my god i destroyed knees and legs..(i could not understand my wrong height saddle because i did till last weekend shorter rides - 50-60km)....but now with that long endurance ride i suffered during and after my ride EXACTLY all what you mention....i will lower it now and start to rise little by little to find the ideal height ----(the cleats fortunately i adjust them correct rear as possible)

[@fede1275]

You are right, it seems a rite of passage: it is easy to get it wrong as on short rides our body adjusts as needed. Only on the long rides the problems come up. I ended up riding with the spanner and trying out small changes until I found the best position. To me even 1 or 2 mm count.

[@Panos_Sfa_Gr]

@@fede1275 few 2-5 millimeters great differences

[@ozzz3365]

Thank you for this explanation. Really helpful!

[@fede1275]

👍 👍

[@reminator1234]

I think idea with pointed toes on the bottom of the stroke, is to have force vector pointing to the back, instead of straight to ground. When it is pointing to ground, you are just trying to press pedal to the ground, instead of moving it in circle.

[@fede1275]

Yes, but at the same time you would need to be in a position where the ankle can sustain the pressure the muscle release. In my mind the leg and ankle angle would be similar when 100m sprinters use spiked shoes and they only land with the front part of the foot.

[@reminator1234]

​@@fede1275 When you look at how we pedal I think it is exactly as you described it, we and the sprinters only press on the metatarsal bones. When it comes to running, when performed naturally, generally runner should land on the mid-foot and people run marathons in this way. What's more you can check it yourself, by trying a step up exercise on a chair, but trying to stand on the mid-foot part. From my experience, the most stable my foot feels, when it is angled, not flat. Additionally I must say, after I have put my saddle higher, my foot now angled at around 25 degress, my calf muscle seems to be less strained.

[@fede1275]

@@reminator1234 yes. I am thinking of a new video to discuss this very aspect. I believe the error is to raise the saddle when you start to lose the powerful load on the ankle. I feel that the front tendons on the ankle joint need to be in a "locked" position and when the saddle is too high you lose that lock (foot pointed down too much) and you can't push enough power through the foot.

[@igorgilza]

Interesting method. I'll try it as soon as I heal my sore ass

[@fede1275]

I used to have sore ass when my saddle was too high!

[@rcelis2076]

Thank you for this very well explanation. Very educational specially for beginners like me. 👍

[@fede1275]

Great you found it useful!

[@slowbro6839]

Thank you so much for this! I’ve learned something new today!

[@fede1275]

Thank you! It's definitely worth experimenting and make sure we are as efficient as possible 👍

[@firelandscountryrider482]

Great explanation my friend.

[@fede1275]

Thank you!!

[@Tomanart]

Great informative video, it has really helped me, thank you

[@fede1275]

Thank you!

[@tonymammone1653]

Salve Federico. Well done on another informative video. I agree with you that even though the typical heel on pedal or .883 method does not necessarily reveal the issue of pointing your foot down on down strokes if the saddle is too high.

[@fede1275]

Thank you. I really believe small adjustments work to find your sweet spot, even better when there's backup of the times on your known segments.

[@hunts49]

Great video, thanks Federico. I've randomly come across a few of your videos now and enjoyed them all - subbed :)

[@fede1275]

Thank you, really appreciate!

[@TheRickysee]

Nice job Frederico

[@ml1186]

Thank you Federico, this is brilliant!

[@criticalmile]

This was what I look for best video I have seen Takk for you presentation it was what I was thinking and you help me so😃🇮🇸

[@fede1275]

👍 👍 😄

[@madmick9205]

Makes sense. Really Like the explanation:)

[@fede1275]

👍👍

[@robrandall1540]

This is Outstanding, thank you!

[@fede1275]

Thank you!!

[@DGKENALLDAY]

Very good explanation.

[@fede1275]

Thank you, I was surprised how much change it makes!

[@Chrisb286]

Great video, easy to follow and very helpful, thank you for sharing 🚴‍♂️🚴‍♂️👍

[@fede1275]

Thank you, it really worked for me!

[@Jeb-OGD]

Thank you

[@garyrhea8507]

Great video spot on!

[@fede1275]

Thank you!

[@goedelite]

What I notice in the stores, Walmart, Target, and on Amazon, is that the wheel size and a description S, M. L are what these merchants make known to you, at most, when you shop for a bike. Frame parameters, such as the horizontal distance from the seat tube to the handlebar, is not generally listed. In fact, I have found in the stores that a S bike and a M, or L bike may have the same frame and differ only in the wheel size. It was easier to shop for a bicycle when they were made in USA.

[@fede1275]

Yes, it's complicated as now with different geometries (straight or sloping tube and so on), there is not a comparable measure among the different brand. I usually check the recommended size by height range and I try to choose the bike where I'm in the middle of the range between the min and max.

[@kelcior]

You explained better than pros

[@fede1275]

Thank you. I believe coming from other sports I had a fresher approach to the subject maybe. Sometimes I see cyclists stuck with old theories that might not work.

[@zodmorality]

Great help, thank you

[@fede1275]

Thank you!

[@edwardmargot3288]

Great videos! Keep them up

[@fede1275]

I am happy you liked them, thank you!!

[@ValeTekZwa]

Grazie mille!

[@fede1275]

Grazie a te!!!

[@embejeden]

Awsome tutorial, really helpful!👍

[@fede1275]

Thank you, the adjustment definitely made a big improvement in my power

[@iansmith5601]

The exposed seat post complex. Hilarious! I’m sure there is some interesting psychology here. 🙌

[@fede1275]

😄😄

[@gyanfranciskumar]

Great video thanks for sharing

[@fede1275]

Glad you liked it!

[@julianmorris9951]

Good video, also I’d say your saddle and cleat position changes over time, this is what I’ve always done, I use the heal method , then from that I drop the saddle at least 20mm, ride for ten miles on flat then hit a climb, the saddle height then feels wrong so then I raise it 3mm at a time until my body tells me it’s good😀 Recently I put my cleats all the way back because of numbness in right foot occasionally so saddle height and fire & aft had to be adjusted again, people think once you set it that’s it for life , it isn’t and the body is constantly changing.

[@fede1275]

Absolutely, great points. I also use the clears all the way back and I agree with the low to high progressive adjustment!

[@armahthetrainer]

Fantastic video! Thanks. ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐

[@fede1275]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@concernpinoy9228]

very helpful , love your videos 👌

[@fede1275]

Thank you so much!

[@pablola1001]

Congratulations. This is one of the best explanations I've seen on KZbin about it and I have seen a lot. I also read something about a formula that calculates the correct distance from the saddle to the pedal ¿puedes decrime algo sobre ello?. My inseam is 0.88 cm and to the pedal 94.5 and to the bottom bracket 77.5, crankset 175.2 and I may have it a bit high. I am 183 cm tall. Thank you.

[@fede1275]

Thank you! Any formula can put you in a reasonable position, but I would then adjust by feel. I'm 185cm, 89 inseam and 175 cracks, my saddle is at 78cm from BB. I measure the distance with Ryden tool and also make sure that the reading is square on the saddle. I'm close to the Lemond formula of inseam x 0.883

[@pablola1001]

@@fede1275 Thank. I think by feel is the best. Now I go down 0.5mm and I feel best power in my foot, more contact with the pedal.

[@fede1275]

@@pablola1001 absolutely, this approach works really well

[@paul_hd1875]

Very good video. I appreciate your (real world) translation to saddle height. Pros riding a size (or 2) smaller… 120mm stem… etc… is often overlooked. Understanding power transfer is paramount, and well illustrated in your video. Thank you. Sub’d. 🍻from NorCal

[@fede1275]

Thank you so much! I'm planning another video on bike fit, it really interests me!

[@paul_hd1875]

@@fede1275 Two other aspects of bike fit, that I believe are often misunderstood, are: Crank length and seat position (fore-aft). Many KZbin "reviewers" get very technical in their explanations... but I suspect you will give it the same touch as you did in this video, making it very easy to understand. Looking forward to it:--)

[@fede1275]

@@paul_hd1875 you are reading my mind!!

[@chrisdelaplante5515]

Very nice explanation Federico ! To have an idea do you think the lemond formula is a good thing , inseam X 0.883 ?

[@fede1275]

Yes, it's a good method, but I would still go a bit lower and raise the saddle by feel. Check my latest bike fit video here to combine the info on the subject kzbin.info/www/bejne/hKaumXeipNukmtUsi=9b1189T4SghWEPTL

[@chrisdelaplante5515]

@@fede1275 thx !

[@Sebkaem]

Hi, totally agree, simple explanation good & understandable. Could you say something about the height of the knees at the top of the paddle stroke?

[@fede1275]

Thank you! I have not considered the height of the knees in isolation, I guess once you have dialled in the main saddle height they should be in a good position anyway. To me the most important aspect is to have the correct saddle height to enable pushing down with a strong ankle lock and then be able to work with the hamstrings where the pedal moves from 5pm to 7pm.

[@PhilippeChevrier-dh4zd]

Ciao Federico, ottimo video. Grazie. For curiosity, what is your saddle height on your road bike? I am also 1,85 cm tall, and I've been riding Road/TT/MTB bicycles with a too high saddle to get more power and run faster (I do triathlon). I was fit by a very good fitter, but my measures are too aggressive for me. I am taking care of several issues (lower back and gluts med pain, Achilles Tendon tear) that I believe were caused by my saddle height. Saluti dall'Arizona, Phil

[@fede1275]

Ciao Phil, grazie mille! I'm riding with 78.2 to 78.5cm saddle height from the bottom bracket, depending on the bike. I'm using 175mm cranks. I'm sure bike fits are great, but ultimately I believe you need to adjust with your feel and concentrate on listening to your body. Hopefully you will sort your issue soon!

[@DennySetiawan77]

Great Video Federico, I love the way you talk, you are on point and I am less confused, not like some vidoe I watched where they talked too much but I ended up still don't know what to do. On similar note, I has some situation with you, after I sold my Cannondale Supersix (which i didnt havent problem with) and I bought Cervelo R5, i feel something has been off, but my situation is more isolated to only single hamstring (right) feeling uncomfortable, even after I went for bikefit, the problem still persist. Any recommendation of what I should look for?

[@fede1275]

Thank you! It's not easy to find out why 2 bikes differ even if it seems you set them up similarly. I believe that the seat tube angle difference might be the key. I recently changed the seatpost on the Merida and went for no setback to make it closer to the Canyon and it made a huge difference. It would be worth checking your changes in terms of saddle position from the bottom bracket on both bikes.

[@ucdcrush]

Steve Hogg has a great article called saddle height, how hard can it be? The method he describes is to find a hill that takes a few mins to ride up at strong power (which will lower your heel), and note the feeling of the stroke on that ride. If it feels like a stair stepper, lower 3mm and do it again, continuing until it's smooth. I used this approach, and ended up lowering my saddle almost 3cm which is huge. I was able to ride at the higher saddle height, but definitely felt like on climbs, something was missing, and I was having rear knee pain as well as several other knee issues that came from it. Now that the saddle is lower, I have no pain, and feel a lot stronger. I would recommend people use some static method to get close, then lower by 3cm and go ride a short hill hard, and adjust 3mm at a time from there.

[@fede1275]

Very interesting, I will have a look!

[@ucdcrush]

@@DrNcsEmg if you're asking me. My current saddle height, which feels good and doesn't give me any pain, is 71.5cm. I have 83.5cm inseam. The .883 * inseam method (one that would tend to be lowest of the formulas) would put me about 2.2cm higher. My cleats are fairly far back which also has some effect, but 2.2cm higher from where I am would be way too high regardless of cleats.

[@fede1275]

@@DrNcsEmg sorry I missed your question, I am close to the Lemond formula, but for me the fine adjustment while riding is essential. Starting low and learning to feel when the pressure on the pedal start to degrade when you go too high.

[@yudoeaqua9927]

Very good informative video on the power transfer part,only the part you compare your height to other pro’s height is not accurate.I think the inseam length affects saddle height more because same height men one could has longer legs one has longer torso.

[@fede1275]

Yes, of course you are right. I tried to look at riders that from the outside looked like me in a way, i.e. built not too slim and tall. I want to think someone like Sagan might have similar proportions to mine, so I hoped the inseam would be similar.

[@kwameakom2625]

Thanks Federico for covering this topic which is so important once you ride regularly, from your experience does this matters more if you are clipped in or not, also have you had a professional bike fit? Keep up the good work love the channel.

[@fede1275]

Thank you! I guess the movement would be the same if you are clipped in or not, but with the rigid shoes when you are connected with the pedal is easier to fine tune the position to ensure the best pressure and power from the leg. I haven't had a bike fit, for now I'm sharing my experience after having tried various positions, read a lot on the subject and experimenting with what has been efficient for me.

[@VoodooDewey69]

I tried the formula of multiplying your inseam measurement by .883 .It seemed to work fine .

[@fede1275]

Yes, I'm close to that measure as well. Even so, some fine tuning during a ride can really put you in the sweetspot, especially going from low to high in very small increments.

[@gianpaologliori3604]

That’s interesting! Is your corrected saddle height consistent with the heel method of determining the position that you described for the Merida or lower? Thanks!

[@fede1275]

Ciao Gian Paolo, thanks for the comment. Eventually I found myself slightly higher than the heel method. I tried different measurements like the 0.883 or the 109 based on the inseam, but I really believe the best method is small increases from a lower position until you find the sweetspot. I tried to add a link to Cam Nicholl's video on the subject in the description, it was my main source of inspiration and the very best video on the subject I could find.

[@theovannieuwenhuizen5756]

Hi, maybe I missed the reason why you stopped riding the Merida bike. What was the reason? Quite curious to know that.

[@fede1275]

Nothing wrong with the bike, but I wanted something lighter for the commute. So when I got the Velobuild I used the groupset of my second Ultimate for that one and the groupset from the Merida for the winter Ultimate. Now I have the aero Velobuild, light Ultimate and winter Ultimate.

[@Tuffjobs]

What does severe cramps in adductors indicate after a ride? Inner thigh/groin cramps. Severe pain!

[@fede1275]

@@Tuffjobs I experienced a similar discomfort when I used to ride the 58 size Velobuild, it was a bit too big and in my pedal motion I had to move forward then push down. Now I ride the 56 size, similar to my Canyon Ultimate geometry, and the pedal motion is smoother, I'm more centered and forward, so I push down in a more efficient movement.

[@burakbegde9131]

Thank you for sharing this. Such a coincidance I have also recently upgraded to a Canyon Ultimate from a Giant TCR advanced and I am going through same issues myself. I am not faster immediately and climbs feel much harder with my Canyon. However I also naturally started to feel the push pull motion you mentioned on my new Canyon. It is similar feeling to running where there is a circular movement rather than perpendicular. I was already started to mess around with my saddle height and I'll consider what you have explained. Hope I also found my perfect saddle height soon. By the way is your Canyon a L or M frame?

[@fede1275]

Definitely some fine tuning is necessary to find the best power. When changing bikes now I always start low, move up until I feel I start loosing the pressure on the pedal in the bottom part and then lower it a bit. My Ultimate is L.

[@burakbegde9131]

thanks again federico for helpful tips. I heard so many times with canyon you tend to go one size smaller but I am happy with my frame. also L. @@fede1275

[@cyclingkopi4654]

Thanks for sharing your experience! I will try lowering my saddle bit by bit so as to engage my hamstring. Do you have any experiments to share regarding saddle fore and aft? Would a forward saddle utilise more quads while backward saddle utilise more hamstring muscle?

[@fede1275]

I'm not experienced enough to single out the fore and aft effect on its own. To me it's part on how you sit on the bike and how much forward and lower you want to go. For me going lower also requires moving forward with the saddle, to keep the hip efficiency. The saddle height to me had the most effect in balancing quad and hamstrings recruitment.

[@hendipray1016]

Yes it does.. If you move your saddle forward, your quads is your main power throughout pedalling.. If you move your saddle backward, your hamstring will engaged more during pedalling.. But i agree with federico, the main things and most important is to set the correct saddle height first.. After you found correct saddle height, then you can play with foreaft saddle position.. I had problem with my hamstring muscle since young days.. My hamstring is typical tight muscle.. So after i found the perfect set up height on my roadbike, i move the saddle forward little by little (max. 3mm each time you want to change it), to reduce my hamstring load during pedalling.. I stopped move it forward when my front knees, especially below the knee cap is hurt, it means my saddle is too far forward. Then i move it back 1mm each time, until below my front knee cap doesn’t hurt anymore.. But moving saddle forward means that more load on quads muscle, which for me is okay as long as my hamstring doesn’t hurt everytime after ride.. If you had normal muscle (not tight like me), set your foreaft saddle that made your quads & hamstring work evenly..

[@dsonyay]

The main benefit from a lot of exposed seat post is a softer feeling ride because of the flexibility of the seat post. Some manufacturers are even going back to the and 27 and even 25mm diameter seat posts. .. skinnier .. so more flexible. On may endurance bikes it is common to see a sloping top tube.. this is done to help expose even more seat post vs a straight top tube. I went from a light aluminum seatpost, to a carbon fiber and the difference in softening road vibrations was much better too. Carbon fiber seatposts are expensive, yes, and can be a little lighter, but the main readin I went to a CF post was to soften the ride of my cannondale Caad frame

[@fede1275]

Yes, that's also an important factor. I have upgraded recently my Canyon carbon seatpost to the Roval Alpinist, same comfort and much lighter.

[@jam6875]

The heel to pedal method doesn't really makes sense because it does not take cleat position into consideration

[@fede1275]

Yes, but it would offer a very good starting point

[@JDRELGOR]

Just asking, aren't you supposed to do the heel to pedal without a shoe? and then that depends on your seat position ie to far forward or back.

[@fede1275]

I tried both options, as some mentioned they had good results with or without shoes. All these methods would give you a starting position, that you have to eventually fine tune. Keep working from low to high: as soon as you start to feel that the pressure on the pedal is reducing, lower the saddle a bit and you should be in the ideal spot.

[@jacekratajczyk2583]

Great video. I have a question - can it be that I have seat height correct and can't touch pedal with my heel? Last few month I rode endurance bike with saddle height set to heel method and cleats all he way back. Seemed OK, but I felt my quads burning all the time and my lower back sore. I bought another bike with a bit more racy geometry. Had bike fit yesterday. Bike fitter who is also very good physio (also feet specialist) checked my body, flexibility (I touch the floor almost with palms with straight knees), did many posture stability tests. He told me that I have naturally stronger back (quads, glutes), naturally with CG more in front and I would find myself better riding with saddle more fore. He put my cleats closer to 3rd metatarsal, saddle almost 2 cm higher (he measured my inseam and in reality it's almost 2cm more, than when I measured it by myself). He measured hip angle, knee angle both ways - dynamic and also with goniometer and I have my knee opened at 145 degrees. Because of weather I didn't make test ride today, but I wonder what you think about that. Suppose I can find it hard first few rides as my body was used to the lower position, but maybe the fitter is right?

[@fede1275]

I believe that you would need to judge by how the body feels in the new position as ultimately all the angles and measurements only work to put you in the most efficient position and not the other way around. I have found my position with small adjustments and now I can feel when I am too high, even if the motion seems similar and from the outside it seems almost the same in terms of angles. I make sure my cleats are back, so not to have any unnecessary pressure on the toes, ideally when you press hard you should still be able to wiggle your toes and not feel cramped. Then I focus on maintaining the pressure on the pedal all the way to the bottom of the stroke, so I can push with the quads and engage with the hamstrings from 5pm to 7pm. If I raise the saddle I can still turn the pedals, but I feel less engagement from the back of the leg and the saddle also seems to push too much, that could also lead to saddle sores. Yes, I like to stay on the crank and forward, as I like to push down and back on the pedals, not forward and down, if it makes sense. Whatever the fit you have, some fine tuning might be still necessary. 2mm +/- to me matter.

[@ToddSloanIAAN]

6:30 that open my eyes

[@fede1275]

That was an important realisation for me, it can definitely change the power you can produce

[@tongotongo3143]

Pulling the pedal in cycling has negligible impact on total power. All the power is generated by pushing the pedal, and the most powerful phase of leg movement is at the end of extension of your leg. Jumping on the box or up in the air is a good example of this biomechanics if human body. So in cycling is crucial to use every millimetre at the final phase of your leg extension. That’s why competing pro cyclists very often ride on higher saddle than they would need in non competing mode, and in order to compensate for that they tilt the nose of their saddle down so they sit only on first 2/3 of the saddle. High intensity and power of pedalling together with low weight of their bodies allows to ride this way no problem. It’s a different story for most wannabe riders on rode bikes, but utilising full length of your leg movement at the final phase of extension still applies.

[@fede1275]

I agree that there is no benefit in pulling the pedal up, but it is not what I was referring to. While full leg extension could improve the pushing down motion of the pedal, it creates a chopping movement and actually decreases the power at the bottom of the stroke, as the leg fully extended is not in the best position to move the pedal from 5pm to 7pm. It is what Lemond described as scraping the mud off your shoe and it is best achieved when you can use the hamstring recruitment. This is when the leg is not fully extended, but slightly bent. A saddle too high reduces the hamstring efficiency and reduces the pressure on the pedal at the bottom of the stroke. Also it is more difficult to keep an efficient ankle lock. At least in my experience 😀

[@tongotongo3143]

Of course, too high is no go, but every 5mm counts, reach the point when it’s too high, then move down 5mm and it might be just perfect. Actually I found Greg Lemonde formula 0,883 works well, and I have invested my own way - measure your inner leg length when fully stepped on your toes, and that would be your saddle height measuring from the pedal. While putting your heel on the pedal method allows makes your saddle too low. Saddle too low is equally bad as saddle too high. I was surprised how much precision of even 5 mm is important when measuring your saddle height.

[@fede1275]

@@tongotongo3143 yes, I agree. I am very close to Lemond formula and slightly higher than the heel method

[@tongotongo3143]

In my case the difference was 2cm, so wouldn’t call it a slight difference.

[@fede1275]

@@tongotongo3143 I see. I still believe though that a little lower is better than a little higher in terms of power. With the lower setting for me I was getting the same power, but getting more fatigued, with the higher setting would also lose power.

[@mrGTD170]

What do you think of the LeMond formula ?The formula : leg inseam times 0.883 equals saddle hight from center of the bottom bracket to top saddle.

[@fede1275]

I ended up with a very similar height, so I believe it's a very reliable starting point. In the video I wanted to focus more on the fine adjustment based on your sensation on the pedal pressure, starting from low and feel when you are going too high. When you hit the sweet spot you can be sure you are at the best position for power transfer using all the leg muscles in a balanced way.

[@yeahhhhh9209]

uhm.... if your saddle is too low you really risk to get knee pain.. a 25-35° knee angle at the bottom bracket is the ideal height.. no doubts

[@fede1275]

I think the issues of a saddle too low might come out only when it's really wrongly set up. I found its best to start low and raise it until you feel you loose constant pressure on the pedals. The knee angle is a consequence, not a target in isolation for me.

[@Funk11147]

When doing the straight leg technique and the heel on the pedal are you resting ure heel which on ure shoes has the raised protector part for walking or are you doing it from below that pointas that part alone is like 1.5cm or so?

[@fede1275]

The heel method is good but still approximate, so I used to do it with my cycling shoes on and have the leg straight even if the heel can throw the measurement a bit off. The best way would be to start with the saddle a little bit lower and raise it until you feel that you are losing the pressure on the sole while pedalling.

[@philoso377]

Let me point out a contradiction between exert metric versus common sense. Expert: Inseam x 0.883 = saddle to bottom tube … add crank radius should = inseam? Old school: Inseam x 1 = saddle to heel @ bottom paddle Comparison? Expert value + crank radius not = inseam. By 5 to 7.5cm How come we can still paddle with saddle 5cm too high? Because we cleat by toe root and not on our heel. This way our feet make up the difference. Will our expert read this message explain the discrepancy?

[@fede1275]

Interesting, I'm not sure that the heel method would result in 5cm differences with the Lemond formula. I believe the end results are closer than what you have suggested, that's why the heel method still works. No way I could ride efficiently 5cm higher and I'm close to Lemond measure. When I measure my heel straight I'm at the same level. Maybe it's to do with the compression when you are seated.

[@philoso377]

@@fede1275 do you think it is fair to address an experiment with one’s thought? Should we run an experiment to address that?

[@eddymintball1950]

After watching this I think I need to lower my saddle height because I should be a lot faster than I am and I should also be finding it easier than I do 🤣. Great video BTW 👍🚴‍♂️

[@fede1275]

Thank you 😄. I hope it works for you, it definitely did for me!

[@jonfairway8235]

Crank length on both bikes same ? 170 mm ?

[@fede1275]

Yes, I have 175mm on all my bikes

[@evieemaya88]

1:18: Process to get correct.saddle height

[@fede1275]

Yes, it might as well be the only method you need, but some fine tuning can improve things as well. Especially making sure cleats are also positioned correctly, ideally backwards.

[@charlesmiv3842]

What about a saddle too low?

[@fede1275]

In my experience you don't lose too much power, but you get fatigued more as the muscles work more contracted and don't have enough extension to release.