Fixing a Pipe Without Turning the Water Off

[@apache16789]

Please don't forget to get part 2 of the repair on video with news on where the blue pipe came from and where the black pipe was heading-this is better viewing than East Enders!

[@deanwellerassociates]

Agreed. Does the story continue with new pipe and free water?

[@barriegibson6411]

The new blue pipe came from a reputable plumbers merchant, and the old black pipe is heading for the dump lol

[@zeno2712]

Yes! Did any neighbour knock on your door asking if your water had been turned off as well?

[@davyarthurs]

Leave it off for a few days and see who complains!

[@zeno2712]

@@davyarthurs LOL! And whose drainage is it?

[@ronnietan516]

A very clear & concise demonstration of a pre and a post repair. We get to learn two repairs in a single video. Thank you Stuart, its been very educational.

[@ProperDIY]

Thanks Ronnie

[@TheWardagh]

The patience and presence of mind to film while dealing with an issue like this is not lost on me! I’d be up to my armpits before I’d think of it 😅. Great stuff, thank you

[@williamweita6796]

Zs

[@andrew_koala2974]

NO FILM was used in the making of this video presentation So get the point. Learn to use the correct terminology. Undertake an extensive reading program to better educate yourself and increase your vocabulary. Education was lost on you.

[@TheWardagh]

@@andrew_koala2974 your quiet write

[@phils6926]

Really interesting. As an ex water company person, I can tell you that you did a better job than some of the professionals. You mentioned black pipe. Black HDPE (High Density Polyethylene) is a type of pipe that is not certified for potable water use, but can be used for agricultural, stock watering etc., use. It is used by builders for temporary water supplies when building houses, an I found one in my garden, though with no water in it. The blue pipe is WRAS approved for potable use and the most modern versions now have a metal barrier layer for easy detection and to stop solvents in the ground migrating into the water. If your supply is coming from somewhere else, it's wasting a huge amount of water and may be clocking up a large water bill. Yes, what a gash repair. As you say, probably hit by a spade or a fork at some time. The water company would take a dim view of that from the point of view of contamination. I can see you have all the tools for the job. Clamping off the pipe is standard practice for repairs up to about 50-mm and gas is done the same. The gas engineers are very thorough, and I notice they now mark up the pipe that has been squeezed down so that it isn't done twice. Well done for using proper pipe cutters and not a hacksaw. Also some decent looking compression joints. I've watched contractors doing repairs and the first thing they do is take the brand new fitting with greased 'O' rings etc., and drop it on the ground, thus making sure it won't last long. Great video

[@billjarv]

sorry my friend but you don't know what you are talking about....the black pipe is class D alkathene....I was a Clerk of the works for North West Water (now United Utilities) for 20 years overseeing mains replacement Contracts all over the North West of England...We came across this thousands of times, it is fairly standard....the pipe is NOT HDPE....the blue is MDPE and came into standard use in the eighties..

[@rond1949]

Owing to these desirable properties, pipes constructed out of HDPE are ideally applicable for drinking water[10] and waste water (storm and sewage) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_polyethylene

[@MarkJohnson-du2bc]

@@billjarv Alkathene pipe is made from Medium Density Polyethylene (MDPE)🤣

[@spenny6222]

With a bodged repair like that using jubilee clips, I'd suggest that the black pipe is likely to be a radiator hose off a car. I actually hesitate to call it 'Bodged' it clearly was a make do and mend repair but it's lasted years so hats off to the person who did it.

[@ProperDIY]

Yes could be. I didn't think of that but it definitely is similar material to an old radiator hose.

[@Wes12940]

So this is why I was without water for 2 days last year. Glad you got it sorted, I was running out of speedsticks!

[@neptisclinia7947]

Really appreciate your skills, patience, and HUMOR!! Would be interesting to see how you reconnect the downstream part of the pipe (if you had filmed it) and whether you discovered its ultimate destination. Thanks for this very enjoyable clip!

[@PratabAli]

This reminds me of Only Fools and Horses, the Peckham spring episode 😂

[@iangbarton]

Great video. I live on a farm which has all sorts of pipes from metal to black 1". I find the safest way is to connect an adaptor from 1" to 25mm with a tap on the join, so you can at least turn off the water if the joint isn't working. Taps are an outrageous price, but it can save you a lot of time. Several years ago our local drainage firm was called out because the front of the new nurses home was collapsing. A bit of digging confirmed that the contractor had joined black pipe to a blue pipe with a metric pipe thread at each end of the joint. The contractor who fixed it spoke to the original contractor who said "I thought tightening up the joints was hard!"

[@TheWadetube]

Jubilee clamp? We in the U.S. call them radiator hose clamps. This is a brilliant trick , using a specialized clamp to hold off the water pressure, but of course you ARE actually turning the water off . If you are using harder PVC then this clamp will break the walls of the pipe. However you could slide a smaller diameter pipe in the end while the water is running, like a cheap garden hose but fit a valve onto it in the open position before doing so , this will divert the water away from the work area and allow it to dry so that a pvc fitting and valve could be installed and it will cure in a matter of a few minutes and the hose or smaller pipe can be removed and the water shut off with the new valve and then a complete repair done in a dry setting.

[@blindbug]

Always love seeing new Proper DIY videos! You are making me a Jack-of-all-Trades. The amount of knowledge and do-how on a multitude of subjects is just plain wild to me. Thanks for sharing your projects with us!

[@frankhornby6873]

....a tricky job calmly explained and expertly repaired...brilliant!...

[@bobertospearza8800]

Loved it Mate ... Its Fun and Informative to Watch A Person who has Done this more than Once the Correct Way ... that is Experience ... What you had to Fix was totally in-experience ... You have a True Channel ... Thank You Stuart

[@pardesibinda]

You struck liquid gold there! What with the UK energy prices going up, no more worries of keeping the garden green. Plus the water board confirmed "it's not their concern."

[@BrodaPaul]

The tool to compress the pipe to stop the water. Simple but effective! Never seen it before. Good video again.

[@glenatgoogle4393]

Superb vid - Thanks I was interested in the clamp that was introduced at about 8:50 , I'd never seen one like that before. So I did a bit of searching on Amazon, and here in the US I was able to locate them using the term "squeeze off tool". Several variations with prices range from about $16 to near $500, one like yours is about $35. I post this for those in the US who might be interested in having one for their tool chest. Cheers!

[@madds6678]

Had a similar problem with my new build house after a year (15 yrs ago) came home to find a bill for £2000 from Thames water 😳. Switching my mains tap off the meter still whizzed around, after several heated calls to the water company & one of there engineers visiting & doing a test then telling me I didn’t have a leak whilst watching the meter still spin ( he got slung out the door head first as you can imagine) got plumbers round & located the leak under my concrete floor garage ( Sod’s law) they found the blue pipe had been made up with off cuts & several joints ( builders 🤬) thankfully Thames water waived the bill so 👍🏻 to them.

[@curiousmatt]

"I'm in the middle of an emergency..... just let me get my camera, set up the tripod, check the lighting......" 😆

[@jimmuendo]

lol But it was much appreciated that it was a ‘real’ situation, rather than a mock up! I love the mock ups, but the realism & annoyance of mud is always good to see! Almost puts you in the moment! 😬

[@davyarthurs]

Feel sorry for Stu having to deal with this, but on a positive note it makes good content!

[@dwaggys3322]

Not really an "emergency" its been like that for months (if not longer).

[@Jacobyte1746]

Some folk want a water feature in the garden... some didn't know they had one ! Where we are in Canada water pipes are buried below the frost line (4 feet) giving you a bit more of a challenge when you have a burst pipe lol

[@SuperHaptics]

Ancient Greek drama has a term for that its literary "poets' right" he can say anything that helps his story😊

[@tommywwalden1599]

Hey Proper DIY, Cool video! Yeah you never know what you will find in the ground. I hope there is a second part to this video! thx, tommy

[@michaelshepherd8005]

That black pipe is most likely Black Alkathene, either 3/4” or 1”. You can get fittings that go from 25mm MDPE to the Black Alkathene, Plasson or Philmac. You are best off removing that existing black Philmac fitting, they are usually meant for going onto Lead or copper (although they state it can be used on the Alkathene) they have metal gripping teeth inside which can sometimes cause the Alkathene to leak. You can squeeze off the Alkathene with your squeeze off, and if you want to do a proper job, freeze the Alkathene far enough back to allow you to cut out the squeezed off section.

[@caskwith]

The alkathene around our area has got brittle over time and splits are common. I suspect a pipe clamp might cause more problems either right away or very soon.

[@phils6926]

Philmac fittings can be used on any type of pipe, though mainly for plastic mains. You buy the Philmac body and there will be adaptors or inserts for copper or lead. Typically, the house supply pipe comes in as 20-mm blue HDPE and the Philmac will have an adaptor to 15-mm copper.

[@IgnatiusZaaijman]

Stuart, that new house of yours is giving you more trouble than many a 50 year old house would. As always, good work!

[@Mike-H_UK]

When you repair the joint, it is best to add a T-piece connected to a stand-pipe. That way you have a free source of water for your garden. 🙂

[@phils6926]

Naughty

[@BigGuy8059]

You don't know where that water is coming from, and what is in it! I wouldn't use it in my vegetable garden.

[@DavidSmith-jb6wg]

Brilliant as usual , like the way you always check out the situation and are well equipped to handle the issues..

[@riptiz]

Yes they can be tightened by hand. No problems with them normally as long as you put an insert in them. On gas lines they squeeze off up to 36” with motorised clamps.

[@DYIIdeas]

Please don't forget to get part 2 of the repair on video with news on where the blue pipe came from and where the black pipe was heading-this is better viewing than East Enders!

[@olivermaltby2943]

Sorry to see your patio in that state but it sure does create fantastic content. I too am keen to see how this story develops!

[@philrockabilly]

Good job Stuart 😀 Where did it go in the end, was it one of your out buildings or an outside tap somewhere in the paddock? Was it to do with your neighbours property, if it was how long has it been running and are they on a meter..? 😉 Anyyway can you do quick update video to show us your patio and grass fix next, will you fit a small Manhole over the valve or is that the end of it now and just backfilling. All the best. Phil.

[@phils6926]

Yes, I wondered about the paddock. Typical use of black pipe for agriculture. I sincerely hope no-one ever buries a valve without protection. Absolutely guaranteed to fail or seize.. The least I do, and that applies to drainage as well, is either wrap it in tape or put a plastic bag over it. Nothing as difficult as getting a 4" drainage pipe joint apart with grit all inside it.

[@AdiCristea]

So THAT's the reason I haven't had water for days now!! J/K, great video, Stu!

[@yuriilukkumbure7416]

ABSOLUTE GOLD!!! Love the autopsy of the previous bodge too 👌🏽 Would be curious to know how this connection should have been done properly. Presumably the black butylene pipe cracked under freeze thaw conditions and will likely happen again in another area. One would suppose the full length of service pipe needs to be changed to HDPE.

[@phils6926]

HDPE pipe is pretty tough and if it freezes, it usually forces the joints apart. Water supply regulations specify the supply pipes must be buried at depths no less than 75-cm top protect from frost. For a really pukka job, lay the pipe in ducting as well.

[@tomlee812]

I'd love to know where it goes and who's meter is paying for it. A follow up video beckons. Thanks for this very informative post.

[@accessfm]

Great video as always, I really would have liked to see new you put the dried out area filled in again with access for your valve there. I feel as always you would have done a great job and shown how it was done right to put it all back together. I can fully understand, like you said time restraints on doing videos but it's very much appreciated all the videos you do as you show how it's done right and that's the difference with your channel. Fair dues.

[@adrianstevens5075]

Good video, nice to see this in a real situation. Would be interested in a follow up about putting the grass and patio back together again. Perhaps a small inspection pit would be beneficial just in case. I would suggest that this was a feed to a horse trough in your paddock. Someone would have been complaining by now I am sure if it was connected to their water meter or even more now you have turned it off. Keep up the videos, so informative Stuart.

[@dontuno]

Horses can't speak 🙂

[@pawcook]

Please tell me there is a follow up video to this one. I really want to know where that supply came from/goes to. And how you filled it all back in. Great video 👍🏼

[@sospiroso]

You almost make repairing the pipe like a work of art. 😂Excellent video and I shall be looking at more on the channel to fill the holes in my plumbing education. 👍

[@davidsteele3037]

If next door is on a water meter, their bill will be interesting! I had a similar issue and the black pipe was 3/8" internal diameter. The blue metric is measured on the outer diameter.

[@davyarthurs]

Excellent repair! I hate water leaks. Thanks for saving some of the stuff. Sorry you had to deal with it , but always handy these things for content ideas!

[@Neil-Hanson67]

Rodger you have the patience of a Saint, most people would have gone ballistic and panicked like crazy, well done mate, Qudos where due.

[@1987pagey]

You can get fitting for the old alkathene pipe to convert to mdpe in city plumbing

[@DerekTJ]

So, did someone's water supply turn off as you repair this leak? Where does it lead to?

[@caskwith]

Looks like black Alkathene pipe. I am afraid you will probably get another split in it soon especially as you have disturbed it. It's a big problem in our area as a lot was installed in the 70's/80's and after 20 odd years it starts to split and leak. Keeps local plumbers in good business. If you can't replace the whole run with MDPE then the best repair is to push a new pipe internally along the whole length, it should be able to take a 15mm plastic pipe inside which is how ours and other family members have had theirs repaired without major groundworks.

[@ralphtaylor5328]

Looks like the team installing the brown drainage pipes were provided by Arthur Daley!! What a unprofessional way of mending the pipe that presumably they broke. As others have said the black pipe has been there for many years and you may have to contemplate replacing it on both sides of the break you have found or you might get another leak in due course. We ended up replacing all the black stuff on the farm with the blue to get rid of a leak - lots of work with digger! Best solution would be that it is a redundant feed to say cattle trough (your barn? ) that builders of the houses forgot to cap off. Then all you need is for them to finish the job.

[@jimmuendo]

I remember a similar problem in a mystery pipe a few years ago! Me & my landlord dancing around in mud, to fix a pipe we didn’t know the purpose of! 🤪 Please please please follow up with where it goes!!! I can’t settle, without knowing! 😬 Lovin’ your work!

[@peterryan7827]

Excellent repair yes i always get concerned about hand tight only on those fittings,if you old school you just feel the need to get some grips or Stilsons on it to really get it water tight thanks for this one ,did you ever find out where this supply actually ended up,

[@MrGeoffHilton]

That water has been leaking all through the summer during the drought! Makes you wonder how much water is leaking throughout the country.

[@paulberry1187]

Coincidentally went through very similar recently although it was the supply pipe to the house under the drive so did have the luxury of being able to turn the water off at the stop tap in the street. Put a kibosh pipe clamp on as a temporary fix so could keep the flow to the house while sorting out a short replacement pipe section and fixings. Also black plastic pipe (70's house). Was really pleased with the kibosh and re-usable as well in case of any future problems. There's a 15mm version too and not too expensive so worth having for emergencies for me.

[@edide1627]

If the water supplyer says "it's not our problem and you should deal with it yourself" then just put a tap and connect your sprinklers to it and there you go "Not your problem anymore" .

[@davidllewellyn5168]

Excellent and simple tutorial, very helpful, good luck with your endeavors and thanks.

[@bikerjon153]

Quite amazed you had a spare valve of that size laying around. Amazing what you hoard in your garage. Hence the saying it will come In one day.

[@stephengould1951]

Thoroughly enjoy your videos! You have taught a 70 year old DIYer some new tricks, thanks. I have been searching, unsuccessfully for your video where you build the stacking shelf unit for the yellow and black component boxes, did you do one?

[@rmower3428]

At least the previous repairer had plenty of water on tap for their horse 😂. Excellent video mate. Keep up the great work

[@jon.bennett]

Great video. I was sceptical of the title, but you proved it could be done. New subscriber now.

[@A2Z1Two3]

A good tip is to heat up the larger pipe with a hot air gun, then push in the smaller pipe , when it cools it will set around the smaller pipe ( but still stick on a clip as belt and braces)

[@julianalcock1019]

Would the blue pipe be more likely to split when squashed if the weather is cold? Would it be a good idea to warm the pipe up a little with hot water or a hot air gun?

[@kuehnel16]

Beautiful home. Maybe a tour 😊

[@adeh503]

The water companies are full of it, they know exactly where all these pipes start and finish because they bill you for it. Good job Stuart 🇬🇧👍

[@phonotd]

Follow up video definitely a requirement in this instance Stuart.

[@mits_6131]

Great work. I enjoyed your search and rescue repairs.

[@bobmcnair7075]

Just wondering if it would be possible to put the tap on with it open without clamping the pipe. Again, a great video and I agree with all the positive remarks about it.

[@PaulBakewell]

Great video thanks Stuart. I would’ve never of considered digging up the garden to find a leaking pipe before watching this video now I’m probably gonna give it a go, if the same happens to me, Keep up the great video!

[@phils6926]

A word of caution. A neighbour of mine discovered through high bills, that the house supply pipe probably had a leak. This was in the 40 degrees of summer and the ground was bone dry. Finding the leak could not have been easier and I would have used some probes and a multimeter to find it. Instead of doing that, she got the insurance company to do it. The kiddy from the contractors turned up and sank his spade into the patch of grass. He hit the electricity cable and ruined the ladies day. Not only was it a gross health and safety accident - no cable detector used - but she then had to shell out to get the cable repaired. The kiddy was saved by the insulated spade. When it was found eventually, the supply pipe was the black stuff. So what could have been a reasonably easy competent DIY job, became a disaster. It didn't finish there. All the messing about must have loosened some joints at the meter in the pavement, which is now full of water. Don't dig gardens for pipes without a rough idea where things are. In my front garden alone, there is the water pipe, the gas pipe, the electricity cable, the telephone cable, the soakaway pipework and the house waste pipe. Plenty to hit.

[@anthonyb8600]

If a pipe runs under your land then the landowner (you or a previous owner) would usually enter into a wayleave agreement. This is a legal agreement that defines what should be done in the event that there is an issue with the pipe/rights to repair etc. It might be an idea to check your property deeds or even consult a solicitor as turning off the feed could leave you in "deep water".

[@aikiiai]

I couldn't help but wonder if someone down the line wondered what happened to their water supply the couple days you shut if off.

[@herbertnielsabacahan2819]

same as I did here in my province where HDPE connectors are a bit expensive and during emergencies when I need to think for an immediate solution. when a 1/2 sdr pipe is punctured we can cut a ¾ sdr pipe about 4inches and insert the ½ pipe into it then finish with a motorcycle tube rubber prepared 1" cut and wrap it on both repaired part of the pipe😍. mostly works. but as soon as HDPE connectors are available, needs to be replaced😍

[@richrepublican3493]

In California USA you would do this differently. Attach a faucet and use the water for plants and maybe, the lawn.

[@jamesstanden111]

well that was a good outcome, now all you have to do is find out where the pipe comes from & where the black pipe goes to. on the plus side if the water authority are not interested you could have free water all year round if you connected it to your main water system

[@adamfoz3401]

Couple of coat hangers= divining rods...... Follow the water trail and let us know where it goes. Keep up with the videos. I'm finding them really helpful.

[@tof3275]

Great video I thoroughly enjoyed it. 👀 😊 One word of caution though my Boss told me during my apprenticeship (I'm 74 now 👍) when using a knife NEVER cut towards yourself ALWAYS cut towards your mate. 😎 That has stood me in good stead in my career, and I'm now retired. 😊😊

[@scottperry8388]

You should hook it in as the new water source for your backyard sprinklers. Maybe it's a higher bar than the hose and you could get rid of the pump. It's going through your garden, somebody should use it.

[@MrMadmac38]

Nothing surprises me anymore!! A builder was building new houses in my area and put the digger through an existing sewage pipe so he got his foreman to cut the calf off a wellington boot and used it and duct tape to repair the pipe

[@ProperDIY]

Now that's a bodge!

[@SpectrumGeeks]

Excellent work as usual.

[@MalcolmCrabbe]

Could it be a feed to a tap and water trough in the paddock area behind your house to ensure any horses or livestock had drinking water ? - Need to get your deerstalker on and do some detective work. Like others we need a part two.... you got us all hanging here !

[@alftupper6762]

yeah but where was it coming from and where was it going to?

[@johnbell4845]

What I (a retired plumber) would love to know is, where does that water supply come from, who’s paying the bill and, just as importantly, what on earth was it supplying??? As ever, a great vlog, L👀K forward to the conclusion 😂

[@RiBenjafield]

As the old proverb goes… you can fix anything with gaffer tape. Another great video Stuart, thank you.

[@ProperDIY]

Yep, thanks

[@jammybiggs8148]

Hell yeah! Amazing repair!

[@rajanrai732]

That is really using above the shoulders well. Thanks

[@stevenfromleicester2529]

I hope there's going to be a part 2 to this video?

[@patrickpowers5995]

But whose supply have you cut off?

[@l.j.b9863]

Your very own Peckham spring lol

[@gerardconway4927]

Great video do you have possibility of free water

[@richsparkman9980]

Did you ever find out where the pipe went what it was supplying water to?

[@hotdog7988]

Instead of digging the pavers up and repairing a pipe that remains under the pavers, another alternative may have been to locate the pipe where it enters the pavers, and where it leaves the pavers, replace the pipe and install it outside of the pavers (if the site allows it).

[@mick.Walker]

Free water woohoo, greenest garden around

[@dirkkoopman174]

We had a "black pipe" split in a 1970's built house on a secondary feed (into the garage) from the meter in the road. It failed at (concrete) ground level just below the stop cock. At 10pm. On Christmas Eve. At ~7 bar. It has to be said: it was spectacular. Fortunately, a very nice local specialist plumber came out within 40 minutes and fixed it. But he said: all black pipes will perish and fail at some point through ageing and it will usually be a split, the length of which will depend on the water pressure and the packing around the pipe at the point of failure. So, although he had to drill out the concrete, the split had not propagated further. The concrete was rather thicker than your substrate :-) He said: black pipe is an failure waiting to happen. Oh, and he only charged £180!

[@jamesbillet8954]

Great video!!🙂🙂🙂. Thanks for sharing.🥰🥰🥰.

[@Flyingtwiglet]

I think I'd add a stand pipe to that for some free water. :)

[@andyf-d4222]

You are a 🌟. My initial reaction would be to panic, just a little bit 😧. Great video and object lesson in how to keep calm and do DIY. Where did the pipe come from and where did it go?

[@marcushaliwell7340]

Surprised the water board "washed their hands" of reponsibility. Should be concerned about any water leak wherever it is.

[@dougfranco9995]

your dirt looks Great (mine is all clay) Tn USA . well done video

[@larss337]

Eagerly awaiting part 2 🙂

[@rozeeboy74]

I would have lost my **** after finding that. Some people are so lazy!!! Great video.

[@ronyerke9250]

Is that black pipe too shallow? We have 42-inch deep winter frost line here. A few freeze-thaw cycles may have split that and could again if that's the case.

[@senseisecurityschool9337]

A trick I learned when you can't use a pipe clamp - get a ball valve, OPEN THE VALVE, and slip it onto the still-running pipe. Then close the valve. A Sharkbite push-to-connct valve is one option that makes it easy. Just make sure the valve is open when you put it on, so the running water doesn't push it off while you're trying to push it on!

[@RealGeorg3]

I've seen a couple of videos of that before. I saw a very good one where they had some flexible hose already attached to the outlet side of the new valve. It meant that they could divert the water away from where they were working for the few seconds it took to tighten up the valve.

[@ianpearse4480]

Great info Stuart. Thanks.

[@crustyoldfart]

I cannot help wondering where the water is coming from, in apparently substantial quantities, and, of course where it is going. Perhaps I am mistaken, but the whole thing looks like the result of a series of quick fixes in the past, for instance I thought I saw an orange ceramic drainpipe below where he was working. Was this pipe part of an existing field drain system I wonder.

[@paulhumphries3795]

Fascinating problem solving

[@SmithyScotland]

Can't wait for part 2!

[@timballam3675]

Very funny how your water company would take no action, just after we bought our house I also noticed an area of law was very lush. Contacted Severn Trent and they came and fixed it the next day free of charge. Yes it was after the stopcock.

[@yuriilukkumbure7416]

Not wanting to start a holy war on your channel Stuart but… ‘Should PTFE tape be used for compression fittings or does it increase the propensity for over tightening?’

[@iantaylor6538]

As the water board say it's nothing to do with them..... Fit an outside tap and get free water!

[@amoffat2012]

I always thought your house was a new build built for you. It seems it’s a few years older than that? We need an update later on as to what it was and where it was going.

[@fuelban]

There is a mains from ..the Street on the road outside you will see sunk in the road surface a number of metal covers inbeded in the tarmacked road. Lift cover and there you find the stop cock... Normally maintained and recorded by you're local fire brigades / Stations .....You require a long extension to get to valve... Advise you use marker to mark valve.. count turns to close.. so don't reopen to higher pressure..more than older lines can cope with... Thom in Scotland.