Fixing Bad Armies in AOS 4 - Warhammer Weekly 10092024

[@Kroeghe]

> Vince: Make this [Nurgle] army do Damage. Women gasp, men faint.

[@johnhildenbrand2642]

Skaven has datasheets that reflect the true horde nature of the Army, points that are definitely not horde minded, and an army construction mechanic that punishes horde armies by way of the drop/catchup mechanic. I don't know that points alone will get us competitive, I think about all you can really do to fix them without enormous changes might be to massively buff the recursion of the Army to reflect the endless multitude feeling, and probably some fiddling with squad sizes for some units

[@redsven7624]

Have a company goal of making the game a selling point and not artificially shackling rules to a sales cycle. Note company not design studio

[@2Tough]

my unsolicited ideas for KO: make army rules that function like combat doctrines for Space Marines, but keyed off the ships. So turn one we are in "flight formation", all ships and unit carried by them get +X movement. Anothr turn I may be in "Fire-fight formation", now all units in and around boats get excellent shooting buffs. Maybe a "Bulwark formation" to be tanky. the basic idea is to play up all the strengths you guys mentioned (tanky, fast, shooty etc) but tie them to the coolest thing in the army (boats) and make it so that you are SUPER good at one of those three at any given time. As a player, you'd need to dictate/choose combats so you are in the right formation

[@VinceVenturella]

Love this

[@toogreytogame]

Jordan at Warpfire minis did this in his last battle report but if you go first, you need to alpha strike with your ratling cannons. High risk but drop your gnawhole close enough and pop the reinforced ratling cannons out, danger close, weapons free. Unless you whiff, you can remove key pieces.

[@spatzilly]

I appreciate Tom's mentions of when his son is painting or hobbying with him. That's awesome man. I've got a 3 year old and he's painted a couple models with me now.

[@Birdmanesp92]

Nurgle, if a unit has been hit in melee by a Nurgle unit, add one to rend for all attacks targeting said unit. This rend stays if unit remains in combat at the start of your hero phase

[@jacksharkey562]

Its a shame that arguably the best edition of the game has been ruined by manifestations and lazy army writing. Armies feel either devoid of flavour or just untested and unbalanced. The most annoying thing is that they've shown that it can easily be fixed, they just seem almost unwilling to do so at thr moment

[@traiantulbure3819]

Completely agree.

[@yeled6131]

Burn Manifestations to the ground. I hate them with a fiery passion. They got rid of true summoning of units, then added these dumb things that are the same thing. What's the difference between summoning a unit of pink horrors and summoning purple sun? And these dumb things are free. Kill them. I really like 4th edition, but don't like this version of the game because of manifestations. It's just hard to want to play.

[@voice_of_terra7228]

Steampunk Golems - KO would really benefit from a core anvil unit, say something like steampunk automatons. With extremely low speeds they would rely on the ships, but would probide a reliable anchor.

[@balemoran3168]

KO need to lose the redeploy jank. But to do that they need points reductions and a unit that allows them to trade like other armies but their own way. I was thinking breachers shields good save good wounds -1 ren on opponents attacks. The flavor. Melee attacks the same as thunderers 4/5/0/1. Give them a 3 inch range ranged attacks, shoot in combat, 3 shots each 2/3/-1/2 massive road block you need to clear by the next shooting phase or you will be punished. The army rule should be a tracking buff for the length of time you hold an objective as you are making profits from it.

[@Flummoxed_Buffoon87]

Hell yeah, brother. Says right here in the KO code book when 6 Varanguard are barreling down on you, deploy the L̶i̶b̶e̶r̶t̶y̶ DAWI PRIME!!!

[@Kimtanashino]

Yes please ! Or "melee Thunderers". They should be elite in their warscrolls !

[@frankfurterberus]

Vince's list of shooty skaven should have lifted literally every possible thing off the board. That is an absolutely insane combo.

[@habardeen]

Apart from KO and IJ, who needs heavy handed rewrite as you say, I feel like the army building is the worst offender for many many factions. Khorne, dinos, FEC and Skaven all feel gutted by the army building. Add way more regiment-free heroes! It’s fun and it’s needed! Amazing content as always!

[@shickarl6588]

Another issue with KO is that they cannot banish without a place of power. The character and boat upgrade only allow you to unbind as though they were wizard (1) which does not let them use the banish ability since they are not actually wizards.

[@starslayer2438]

Those abilities should definitely allow the model to banish as well as unbind.

[@Eclypsia13]

I think something that KO could benefit from is either a general debuff to enemy magic or the ability to universally attempt to unbind. Something like Aetheric Distortion: The Engines of the Skyvessels disrupt the flows of magic making it more difficult for the winds to be harnessed. -1 to enemy cast ability scores while within 18" of a Skyvessel. With the Ironclads great endrinwork boosting it to -2

[@biowiener7825]

i think its odd that the battletomes for the edition which has heavy centerpiece focused rules, have random guys as artworks while the old ones have those exact center piece models as covers

[@joehill6916]

SO glad you picked out the Necromunda GD winner! It’s a wonderful piece; beautifully constructed.

[@Jclark83]

I wish the community would just swap the auto choose who goes first to the same as other turns in the game. you deploy first you win ties on the roll off for turn one priority. Then we dont have to fix sub heroes across every army and we can play the armies we want to play

[@jonasandersson5838]

Yep, give it a +1 or win ties on the roll of for deploying first

[@alanwesley598]

The last time someone mentioned their long vacation without internet they were talking about jail time.

[@leesweeney8879]

If only GW cared more about rules, than selling books. Still think the boards are too small for the movement things can do.

[@adamcraig9834]

FEC Spread the Delusion: each time an enemy model is slain by a melee attack from a friendly FEC unit, roll a d6, on a 6+ return (or add) a model to a single FEC unit in combat range with a health value equal or less than the health characteristic of the model slain

[@oneshotthrills1504]

One thing that didn't get mentioned about the Nurgle box is that it lets you get the whole Regiment of Renown, which for the moment is seeing play in the meta

[@MrDreyven]

I think the most frustrating part about FEC is how their recursion works, because it's your movement phase it's fairy tale stuff to actually get to make use of it, especially with the possibility of the double turn looming on the horizon. You charge in, get a bunch of points but you need to have your hero and your surrounding units survive till your next turn to use them. It just doesn't happen. If you could spend them in your opponents phase, before they have a chance to stop you, it'd be much more impactful. Also it'd allow you to earn more points! Currently if you are at 6 in your phase all your noble deed points you earn in your opponents phase are basically lost.

[@ismael9914]

I think Heroes should have a "fight last" effect on charge, or some inbuilt -1 to be hit so they can survibe on melee Also, please bring back the rousing oration Make them have some pasive, even tho unreliable way to generate points Also also, put back the gran dellusion as a core army rule, so FEC work even if our heroes are snipped

[@piffling2238]

I really liked both of your suggestions for FEC. Vince's idea is what I wished 3rd edition was. I wanted an army that dragged the opponent into the delusion.

[@davidcampbell621]

So what if nurgle just got crit mortals vs diseased targets? Its not perfect, but it encourages players to take the hit, apply disease, then hit back hard. It sort of hits the attrition theme

[@adamcraig9834]

FEC Contagious Delusions: if FEC units fail a ward save in melee with a role of 1, after damage is dealt, roll a D6 and apply the corresponding delusion to the attacking unit for the rest of the battle. Or, perhaps after combat where FEC models die, role a dice and on a 4+ apply a delusion for the rest of the battle

[@freakwifme]

Speaking of Necrons, if you did want to make KO a tricksy movement army, you could make it like the Hypercrypt Detachment where they can use some of their ships as redeployment devices depending on where the ships are set up much like how Necrons can use their monoliths to redeploy troops. Maybe have the ability to also take a number of infantry units from the field and put them in deep strike until you want to deploy them. Then have your ships also provide reinforcements. May benefit a shooty army. This way, you can have all your troops deploy on the ground unless they are in deep strike. This is where your troops should be anyhow. If your opponent takes down your ships then you lose all your utility so it is pretty much up to you to defend those ships.

[@Jclark83]

Give KO a new unit with proton packs that go out and suck manifestations up into traps really easily. Or change one oif the guns on the unit to have that sort of rule. Something like if it rolls a crit on an endless spell it counts as a banishment. Who ya gonna call

[@jpick8245]

Im afraid of no endless

[@Flummoxed_Buffoon87]

That is an awesome idea. It is wacky enough to fit into AoS.

[@Ignatiusofantioch87]

For KO (this won’t fix the whole army but the idea seems cool) I really like the idea of putting the skywardens in the boats and when the boats move, you can drop them out anywhere along the line the boat moved.

[@autumnlotus6250]

As someone who plays a Lot of these listed armies: it's insanely demoralizing, and it's why I tend to play the Old World and OPR more often then GW games nowadays

[@rotm4447]

old world is just people running dragons and cavalry.

[@autumnlotus6250]

@rotm4447 it is, and it's why I prefer warhammer army project. But the general war game community are diehard GW people, so they just Can't not play the new shiny rules.

[@starslayer2438]

Thinking about your suggested / discussed changes, here are my favourites (with a few ideas of my own): Kharadron Overlords Transport Skyfarers: Only works on Normal Move. Skyvessel Cover: -1 to hit against ALL attacks. 3+ armor save for balloon boys. Something against manifestations. Lower points for many units, especially balloon boys. >>> Transporting becomes more restricted and straightforward, but the army becomes tougher and has more bodies on the field. The manifestation problem is tricky, but needs to be adressed. Maggotkin of Nurgle Blessed by the Plaguefather, Effect: Pick 2 effects instead of 1 during battle rounds 3 and later. Blessed by the Plaguefather, “Mutate”: Can be used if at least HALF the enemy units are Diseased. Wracked with Disease: Add +1 to the roll during battle rounds 3 and later. >>> Keep Disease as the main way Nurgle does damage, but increase the damage it does as the game goes on. Ironjawz Mighty Destroyers: YOUR hero phase. Pick up to 3 units. Move those 6”. Can’t move into combat unless they already were in combat at the start of that move. Make Warchanter and Weirdnob Shaman bonus heroes. Lower points for many units. >>> Make the army faster in a straightforward way. No more brainy movement tricks in the oppenents turn. Easier list building with more units. Sons of Behemat Make Mega Gargants only have 30 health and 10 control score. Battle damaged ones go down to 5 control score. Damage output roughly as it is now. Down to roughly 400 points each, except for Brodd. >>> 5 Mega list would have +10 health but -30 control score compared to a current 4 Mega list. I really like the idea of running 5 slightly weaker, less controlly Megas. Fyreslayers (bonus) Make Flamekeeper and Battlesmith bonus heroes. Lower points for all Magmadroths by 30-40 points each. >>> Otherwise, the army is fine, but these two points need to be adressed imo.

[@toogreytogame]

Sylvaneth and Nurgle confirmed as final two books because they actually have time to change them. Anything that didn't get a change beyond points but needs one has a 2025 book release.

[@studio_erstwood]

Okay, so imho Nurgle needs to be THE control score army. More buffs and debuffs to control score, so it's way out ahead of everyone at standing on circles. When I first started seeing 4th edition rules I was convinced that control score lists could be a thing but I just don't think enough armies offer enough ways to interact with it. This should be Nurgle's wheelhouse. The problem with disease is that it's too slow. It shouldn't be limited to one unit a turn, it should be every unit that meets any of the criteria and again, there needs to be more rules that interact with it. Not having a single artefact or CT that plays with Disease is the biggest miss in the whole pack. Plaguebearers definitely need a 5+ save or their -1 to hit should be for everything not just shooting. Make these changes and I think you have a good attrition army that can win games without having a meaningful hammer. Also, small aside, I have played 28 games now with Soulblight, my list is an attrition list, probably 25 of those games have gone to turn 5 and I've only lost 3 games with them. Attrition armies absolutely work but you have to build them correctly (I am still absolutely firm in my belief that most people are still writing 3rd edition lists) One last thing, I think it's absolutely baffling to me that Skaven is in this video, although admittedly I am still only at the theory crafting stage with them so I won't give you too hard a time for now 😅. My impression from listening to your stories about them is that, like Khorne, Skaven is now a full Johnny army, and as a self-confessed Timmy, is maybe that it just doesn't suit your playstyle anymore? I'm sticking with SBGL until after WCW but as soon as that's done I'm digging out Clan Mekk again, so I'll report back when I have some actual games under my belt. Great show as always. Keep up the good work my dude.

[@VinceVenturella]

You're absolutely correct, I should have said SBG is the good control army, you are dead on.

[@pallasovidius3015]

For FEC, could a fix (or something to help) be to separate the noble deeds from the hero and make it a pool for your army, like the chaos factions and Seraphon from 3rd ed?

[@sjZhyren]

I think Thomas Elliott made those last edition AoS covers, at least some of the cool ones, and is no longer with GW so the new cover direction is sort of understandable. It is unfortunate but artists of that caliber that are well versed in specific brand are a bit hard to come by.

[@OjaiWeber]

Very new to game so be kind. For KO it seems a unit that welds or bolts in concept could manifest damaged ships on ground to create a constructs of Steel units. Could add to durability. Loving these vids

[@LeeLolth]

RIP Age of Sigmar 3.0, you were great whilst you lasted. The internal book balance and variety of playstyles will be surely missed.

[@Serra7racon]

For IJ and ther Mighty Destroyer / Smashing and Bashing: You could have it bit like Facet of Wars. Either extra move in the Hero Phase or Potential Smashing and Bashing (wich is a risky thing, it could not happen) , and maybe another one at the end of turn, maybe an additional Chargephase after Combat. So you can either charge a unit, wich destroyed theire enemy or a unit wich failed charge can try again to bind an enemy.

[@yankee1112]

Great show. Thanks for the discussion guys

[@manuelsaavedra8081]

The thing with Skaven is that they were minmaxed for damage and undercosted for their damage *because* they die to a gentle breeze in their general direction. Now we have an expensive glass cannon of dubious output

[@Dino-xz9dd]

I think Khorne is not as bad as people make it out to be - the way bigger Problem is that people have an idea of how the army should play and it absolutely doesn't play like that. If you play anything other then Bloodletter spam, it becomes such a high skill ceiling army that you have to play very precise and have very little room for errors. But I think they need some significant touchups, first and foremost that the freaking Blood tithe point generation should not be tied to a 2+ roll. You gameplan stands and falls with wether you manage to generate a point in the first round. Also they need more unbinding opportunities. Karanak and Flesh Hounds should have a built in Wizard(1) for just unbinding

[@olafolafsson2755]

The stats say it all. People aren’t too dumb to play the army… Almost every match up is a bad one for Khorne. Bloodthirsters have 5-7 attacks, which means they whiff all the time. Lastly the army has huge battle tactic disadvantages in comparison and suffers from low defense. The defensive units are trash and prayers+manifestations worthless. The rules work in a vacuum or against sth like ironjawz…

[@hobbyton3575]

32:51 first time with no Christmas box for any of my 9 armies! And I used to buy at least one or two every year! 😊

[@Caleb_G_Davis]

For KO, give them a rule called reinforcements or something where the ships help replenish units

[@PatRick-ru7qe]

Random idea for a topic maybe: Start fusing armies together, especially the one-dimensional ones. Like KO/Fyreslayers, maybe Sons and Ogres. Maybe making some more interesting that way and making room for new ones.

[@dariuschoksy6934]

It’s really interesting how much lists can affect how competitive an army is. I’ve only played 2 games of AoS so far and brought my strongest 2 drop FEC list against unoptimized SCE and NightHaunts and I’d basically won both games by the end of turn 2 and the only units I lost were single foot hero each game. I’m sure if that Nighthaunt list had brought all of the strongest things I wouldnt have stood a chance.

[@balemoran3168]

OK, Long time KO player here. KO is a feels bad army all the way right now, If you win it feels bad as your opponent spent 5 turns chasing and failing to catch you. If you lose your opponent probably spent 5 turns chasing and failing to catch you but managed to also keep you off objectives, Or they got a 1-2 double and too you off the table. How to fix this. 1) Aether as a resource. Each turn you generate your aether from the endrin's on boats and this lets you hand out buffs or use ability's. they can be -1 to hit debuff on a unit that you shoot, power up armour saves on a unit giving you +1 save, how far your ships move, extra shot from the main gun of a ship... or summon aethermatic machines. ( manifestations) 2) aethermatic machines 3 in the spell law each use Aether points you have generated. generally you have a Mine field, a anti manifestation torpedo and a anti shooting shield. 3) have hero's buff boats 4) remove the feels bad redeploy jank but have us able to debuffs from aether gold matter so that its not a pick up 20 thunderers a turn to pick up 5 if your fully buffed we have no ability to stack -1 to hit or to wound and currently -1 to hit wrecks our damage output. 5) deployment ability's work in deep strike 6) make the balloon units different. make sky wardens back in to operate away from boats and get jobs done, and let endrin riggers stay as the repair guys. give both units a job and not just have them as a what unit is better this edition. get the grinding shooting army right and I think we will stop being a horsemen or a problem faction and can start playing aos.

[@jamielaing5244]

Not only are Slaanesh chariots bad in pretty much every game system they are also agonising to play. The willingness to suffer through building a second Slaanesh chariot is a test of the players masochism.

[@markpandelidis2079]

29:14 Warchanter gives the ward in weirdfist btw. So it's worth it even with just him.

[@crg1850]

What do you think of stormvermin mixed with vizzek? Vizzek can take the hits for the stormvermin who can be the honor guard for vizzek. Vizzek can let them fight twice. Could it work or am I too stormvermin thirsty?

[@VinceVenturella]

It won't work really, they are just too cost ineffective and he is too squishy. Both will just die.

[@crg1850]

@@VinceVenturella Thanks for the advice. It seems like vizzek is just too many points for how squishy he is. Do you think plague packs are just better if you want to try to do crit mortals on reinforced clanrat blocks?

[@VinceVenturella]

@@crg1850 Yes, and I think that plan is hard to pull off, but yes, I would rather have a plague pack.

[@perfidy1103]

37:30 huh, I always thought he was called Alberto 😂

[@rmulshine]

Challenge of list building in 4.0 is that if a units role is combat related it always needs to be reinforced.

[@AzurielMist]

I really like the thematic and feel of the nurgle army currently, it's flavourful, the only complaint I have is that the numbers are not there. We do little to no damage, disease is quite hard to get out, while we are quite tanky, some of out elite units can still just get wiped out pretty easily. 5+ ward is nice, but most of the saves are pretty average or just bad with the likes of plague bearers, a lot of armies are now having pretty good ward too, so it's not unique. Diseases should do more than just damage, giving debuffs, or buffs to nearby maggotkin etc.

[@balemoran3168]

1:18:15 I don't think you can lower the damage out put from KO shooting before you have to stop calling it shooting and start calling it harsh language

[@drewcradduck2790]

Hey, hey, hey! As a filthy casual that participated in the NPE survey so long ago and absolutely complained about the Ironjawz alpha strike at the time, I do NOT accept blame for what the Ironjawz has become. I mean wasn't that survey done all the way back in 2nd edition at this point? The game has changed SO much since then. I don't think the problem was ever that, "big ork move fast, hit hard" and instead the true feelsbad of Ironjawz was how GW happened to be VERY selective about giving certain factions easy access to being a one-drop battalion in 2nd. The moment 3rd edition dropped and evened out the playing field battalion wise, I no longer noticed the Ironjawz rush tactics feeling unfair. So yeah, as one of those people you're calling out I agree with you. Let's bring back the zippy smashy ladz!

[@solidsentinel1285]

The iron jawz box is so good, wish they had it (or any box) when I started collecting them a few months back ha

[@BlyHades]

Nurgle are indeed terrible. They need a huge buff in disease dynamics/attack and defence

[@freakwifme]

Well, you could have reinforcements on the ships. At the end of a turn or start of your next turn, a unit fully within 12" could restore d3 wounds? Kind of like the Reanimator in Necrons. Maybe the melee infantry need to be 2 wounds 4+ save and be the screens for those behind them. The way I see it is, every unit requires a task, melee troops to tank, ranged troops a to do a majority of the damage, ships used to redeploy troops, provide reinforcements and provide fire support. Like an onion, it has layers.

[@Vortid]

Good talk, hope GW listens. FEC, on top of delusion-infection: -Feeding Frenzy active if in combat with enemy unit that has a damage point allocated/is not full size e.g. smell blood = go nutz. (I get it, it needs some practical fix, but the idea is good imo). Maaaybe with a count as being in combat if within 6, if feeding frenzied?. Overall game fix: Heroes less than 10h can activate in unison with an infantry unit.

[@TerrierHalo]

If it's Thursday morning and you're about to go donate some blood for the blood god, hit like. I am not the biggest fan of Metropolis, and I'm not the biggest fan of that SCE cover. It's very un-actiony, like they're off to fulfill the 'Defile the buffet table" Battle Tactic.

[@joehill6916]

BFTBG 🩸 Give blood, save lives ✊

[@adamcraig9834]

Vince, if you make that for IronJaws, how are you differentiating from Ogors (I’m asking as a long time foot ogres player going back to Warhammer fantasy battles who also has a small iron jaws force)?

[@VinceVenturella]

Ogres have a much mroe mixed force, they love the charge phase, have more abilities (or should, they are also in a terrible place and need a rewrite), but they are a much more multi-dimensoinal force, or should be

[@spiritofgroot1999]

FEC - I thought of the D6 table as well. Go me. You could always use their control score instead of minimum models. Minimum control of 3 or something On the 1 - plus 1 to dmg as they feel the delusion and are more efficient 😁

[@Tyranidus7]

The new Control score is an area that is dying to be expanded on in the rules that can redefine a few armies. Nurgle for example should have high control scores along with high toughness. That way yes they won’t kill many things but it won’t matter if they can consistently out control people on points.

[@at3969]

I agree with you about the change of art style, this looks like a downgrade compare to what we had so far. Sadly, the artist who was being the most stunning cover arts in 3rd Ed imo -Thomas Elliot - is no longer working for GW. I am afraid will be stuck with this new art style for a while. Tbf it looks good conceptually but somehow feels unfinished.

[@ncfcpaul8761]

Massive shame for me is that S2D are doing everything I wanted my Ironjawz to do- run big cavalry across the table really fast and whack people. I don't want IJZ to be a techy Jonny army. Sad times.

[@chubbychalupa4175]

Would the Maggotkin one be a good shoutout for the Regiment of renown?

[@chubbychalupa4175]

Khorne should actually be the only army with attack twice.

[@Hu9DS24]

Can Chariots fill the role of cheap flank unit to score battle tactics now? I think the Gorebeast Chariot is the same cost as Furies now for S2D.

[@VinceVenturella]

It's tough, in some cases, if they are really cheap, and can automatically move at least 9+ inches, then yes otherwise, it's just better tohave 5 cheap dorks.

[@jimskaven5963]

At this point, I've written pages on what the Skaven have lost in this edition. I don't see myself playing a lot unless something drastic changes. It's just not fundamentally Skavenie.

[@lestrike2707]

Vince‘s story is exactly why I don’t feel like playing AoS anymore. The game is filled to the brim with nonsense just as vile as what Vince experienced. :-/

[@DNolan1919]

It's like when they made the edition they said "we're going to make things a bit less killy" the honed in on the melee focused armies made them crap, but forgot their own rules when they looked at elves....

[@jessezeck9818]

You nailed khorne Vince. As usual.

[@SeanDitchfield]

IJZ need help for sure. I’m happy they lost the old mighty destroyers but they need battle traits. Swingy hit rolls, companion attacks, slow, expensive… it’s rough kid. All I can guess is that they overestimated how many bonus attacks you’ll realistically get on a unit

[@MankeyPaw]

FEC used to be THEE glass cannon army and it felt great, their recursion alowed them to occasioanlly get to spend their glass cannons twice. It's very odd to me they not only lost tons of that recursion but also tons of that damage. Doesn't really make sense. They aren't really doing anything better then any other army in the game they just kinda exist and sometimes if Ushoran is in a list they can pop off. I don't think Nurgle needs more damage. Disease often does enough damage in combination with the below average damage of other things in the army. If anything I feel nurgle needs to be tankier so that stuff can actually live in order to spread disease and get more chip damage in. Also because the army is so slow, when it actually reaches somewhere on the board they need to be able to stand there longer then other armies, so again durablility increase is the way imo.

[@Caleb_G_Davis]

I’m also thinking damage carry over might be the issue, one unit that can take out big squads and monsters means you just take those units

[@brentlucas731]

KO fix make the big boats tanks(+2 +6 up) with retreat and shoot. Instead of redeploy away you would use you boat as a road block for your shooting.

[@Mithlinthar]

Hit like, hit Subscribe, hit your microphone!

[@Jclark83]

how about desease does mortals to match battle round number so its same mechanic but back end stuff is falling over

[@jfoerster]

Nurgle disease did pick up 25+10 (resurrected) deathriders plus Nagash. With some damage from GUO+Rotigus. But mostly disease. So i beg to differ. But they lack normal damage. Flies just die and deal no dmg.

[@yeled6131]

Vince, I just got done watching. I agree Nurgle needs a lot of help. The most crucial thing is that they aren't tough enough and don't do enough damage, but they are also very unfun to play. With that in mind, a couple things I would do with Nurgle: 1) The entire mortal side needs to be made viable. Blightkings are fine, but nothing else does much of anything. This is where I'd put your damage increases. A reinforced unit of Pusgoyle Blightlords costs 500 pts and hits like a wet noodle. The Maggoth Lords are completely meh. The Lord of Afflictions is useless and his buff is useless. The foot heroes got points drops but you'd still rather just take another unit of Blightkings. All of these need power increases. Have them hit hard, and have the heroes (foot, fly, or maggoth) all dramatically increase the viability of the units they are meant to buff. Make the combo of Lord of Afflictions, Maggoth Lords, and Blightlords into your hammers. And have the foot heroes buff toughness of mortals or at least Blightkings 2) Make disease more virulent. It's hard to spread because you can't control the board. There is a way to really lean into disease spreading and damage: GUO spell, Horticulux trees, Rotmire Creed shooting, and then Rotigus' spell. But that's a very specific build and honestly not fun to play or play against. They need to make disease harder to remove (I can't see how Nurgle beats any healing army), and they need to make it easier to spread with any configuration of the army. 3) Make the army even tougher. Their unlimited healing spell is good but hard to cast. Bring back their natural healing from previous editions. And give them ways to take the punches of the hardest hammers. It can be extreme toughness in Blightkings and maybe tricks with plaguebearers and their foot heroes. Also, since 5+ ward is their whole thing, I would give them a battle trait that says that enemy abilities that remove wards automatically fail, or at least only reduce their ward by 1. 4) Give them a few more prospector options. Beasts and Drones have nice movement shenanigans. But one thing Nurgle can't do is score battle tactics. The army is too slow, and drones cost too much. Perhaps give drones their shooting back so they can go out an hunt other prospectors by putting disease on them (maybe have it only cause disease and not do damage). And do something with Nurglings in this space. They used to deepstrike from terrain, which was ok. I would go a step further. Let them teleport through terrain to represent an infestation of Nurglings across the board. If they are within 3" of a terrain piece, remove them from the board and set them up wholly within 3" of another terrain piece, 9" from enemies. If that is too flexible, make it from a Feculent Gnarlmaw to any terrain piece. That would give the Nurglings something to do, make the Gnarlmaw do something more, give Horticulux another trick, and give this very slow army a way to project some board control by grabbing undefended objectives and battle tactics.

[@JebodiahJunfan]

Why do you think they hit vizzik with the 5up save but needing him close to combat to buff other units with his prayers and -1 to hit and wound ability in combat? Especially with shooting being in the game too

[@VinceVenturella]

I'm fine with him being squishy, but then he isn't 450 points.

[@DarkLolification]

Yeah the whole (current) philosophy of KO does not work with the rules of AOS, you can't have an army that is all "If I get I die" but then have the double turn mechanic where you're going to get caught. Or I don't know how to play them.

[@jonasandersson5838]

Regarding monsters, its the lack of thoughness thats the problem. I donr wanna implement it, but maybe a flat -1 to wound for all monsters (or non hero monsters only)

[@starslayer2438]

I see many complaints whenever GW reuses old cover artwork for a new battletome. But I much prefer them reusing a great artwork two or three editions in a row rather than replacing a great old artwork with a mediocre new one. Skaven are one of the four or five AoS armies that hasn't gotten a WarCry warband yet. And sneaky ninja rats operating deep in enemy territory would fit WarCry quite well... So I hope we see a cool new Eshin unit with exceptional sculpts soon.

[@lukevassh7740]

Loved the ideas on FEC. The community would love a home brew rules pack from an established game designer. Just saying. 😉

[@lukevassh7740]

Loved everything except army wide rend increase. Cryptguard should not be rend 2.

[@freakwifme]

FEC need to be tanky damage dealers. Maybe a more elite army, with less bodies but doing more damage and more taknky with smaller units of glass cannon type troops. These guys should be savage blood crazed monsters. Characters should be out the back, handing out buffs. They should be your true horror faction.

[@martinnilsson2110]

Been around long enough to now that Vince loves his keeper. 😂 Just wait there time is coming,, next year or within the next 5 years. 😂

[@Dorkenmore]

A question for those avoiding purchasing the books: I was also considering not purchasing the books until I realized that the warscrolls weren't free, the app loses all the previous rules and you can't see the updated ones until you get the book code. If you are not purchasing the book, where are you looking up the warscrolls, battle traits, spell lores etc.? Is there an external source I might not be aware of?

[@at3969]

Wahapedia

[@Dorkenmore]

@@at3969 am I insane but I only see up to 3rd edtion

[@VinceVenturella]

Yeah, they have the 4th stuff, but there is also some other sites.

[@Dorkenmore]

​@@VinceVenturellathat's so weird. I go to wahapedia and I only see it going to 3rd edition. Lol wtf

[@jeffreysort7219]

Sad to see how many Destruction armies need help

[@Swooper86]

I think this rumour engine could be Ascended Khorgos Khul.

[@markpandelidis2079]

Ironjawz fix New battle trait. Love of combat. When an Ironjawz unit uses the rally command, it can do so while in combat with an enemy unit. Change mighty destroyers to 4" and can leave combat willingly. Killa beat change to +1 to hit. Increase damage on wrekkaz and Goregrunta riders to 2 and give the pigs 1 rend. Change the mighty eadbutt spell to pick a friendly IJ unit WW 12" +1 rend to its companion weapons. Brutes 180 Ardboyz 170 Megaboss on foot 190. Done. Edit: The army doesn't need tricks. It has to have 2 cheating mechanics, moving in and out of combat for free and rally in combat. It's a combat army. Combat should not stop this army. It loves combat, it loves the combat phase. Everything should revolve around combat. There's other potential things like smash and bash could change to +1 to hit army wide after the first unit is destroyed. The pig one could also give the Maw-Gruntas run and charge if they have 3 momentum. That on top of the extra move is good. Like there's still more you could do. But the main problem is they don't have good healing and they HAVE TO not have their damage dependent on a warchanter. The unit is an auto include and that's a problem.

[@Leviticushateford]

To Tom's comment on what is going on with underworlds and warcry, i truly belive what he says from a business standpoint on trying to find out what they want to do with warcry and the other boxed games...I feel the 40k has it laid out with 40k- killteam- and necromunda. The issue with the AoS side is they don't have a necromunda style game..I think warcry needs fixed but Underworlds should change to...Mordheim style crunchy long campaign rule sets

[@shadeling6717]

I'm interested in how to fix non troll gitz. Most of my armies are on the low side. the only one that isn't is nighthaunt which i put on hiatus since midway through 3ed. Ironjaws, maggotkin, all squig gitz, and stormcast. I also have a little Hedonites. for nurgle i kind of wish cloud of flies was army wide, but shooting isnt exactly a big threat. i was thinking of how to boost dmg as i don't see a issue with actually giving nurgle some damage ability. Instead of just boosting stats i was thinking of a way to ramp up disease. I was originally thinking it goes up each turn but that just leads to insane book keeping. i was also thinking you roll for EACH diseased units in engagement range. Now all nurgle units are diseased but ignore the dmg or possibly heal them instead. So that way if a unit is diseased and in engagement range of a nurgle unit they would roll 2 d3s. Or possibly if fighting a diseased unit the nurgle unit provides a unique bonus. bonus rend/ dmg/ +1 hit dmg whatever. i would actually like a ranged unit for nurgle other than the warcry or whatever unit. i was thinking a sling unit that flung diseased skulls or just diseased organs.

[@yeled6131]

Stewart Irongutsman just did a which cavalry is best. According to his math, Pusgoyle Blightlords cost 250 pts and do 5.37 damage on the charge, 3.52 damage without charge., for 4.445 average damage and 56.24 pts per damage. What are we even doing here?

[@PannkakaMedSylt]

I kinda think Darkoath would work better and easier to balance if they were seperated more clearly into seperate army like Kruelboys & Ironjawz. I'd be happy if they did that imo, as a owner of models from both even though I don't have 2000pts fully of darkoath. But I'm sure some would be upset too ofc.

[@Birdmanesp92]

Make Tom pay $1 everytime he hits a mic towards a new mic fund

[@Aki777craft]

I think IJ are in the best design vibe ever

[@kellyhoesing2573]

It's okay if they reduce Skaven models by 5 points per unit every patch they'll be properly costed by the time new edition hype for 5th starts and you can't find a game of 4th anymore.

[@BeefyCrunch]

I think the slaanesh rule is wrong....or would tzeentch get endless destiny dice?

[@VinceVenturella]

Tzeentch doesn't have a declare, just an effect, that is the difference.

[@darkfuture3291]

00:00:05 Jesus! Tom!!!! ;)

[@olafolafsson2755]

How to have fun and good rules with Khorne: Buy the sci-fi game, choose World eaters, play.

[@Jfk2Mr]

And feel the nails biting?

[@ddd_martin59]

at 2:31:00 I disagree on the IJ a little bit. What they're pretending is that 'Violent Fury' is still a thing. Cause that's how IJ worked the last few editions, everything was priced around the +1 Damage buff being basically always available anywhere it mattered. And now it isn't. It's down in range, in reliability, in how often you can cast it and it doesn't even last through the enemy's turns anymore. It's nerfed into the ground but all the units are written as if everyone had 1 damage more than they actually have.

[@VinceVenturella]

You're not wrong, I say just give them the 2 damage and go from there.

[@ddd_martin59]

@@VinceVenturella Oh definitely. I'd much prefere warscrolls being better and the chanter just doing priest things.

[@jwdalton]

That is the darkoath spearhead box.

[@VinceVenturella]

Yep, we corrected ourselves. :)

[@alexbelanger5358]

I've been saying for a while the Mighty Destroyers should be run and charge armywide, not the cheater pile in.