What is the NEW AoS Meta? - Warhammer Weekly 10022024

[@cleaveandrun284]

Tyler’s back!

[@SeanDitchfield]

Seeing Tyler smiling as the camera starts rolling warmed my heart. Great to see you back

[@woofergranade2044]

Finally an episode where no one hits their mic!

[@CrazyTom34]

Tyler!! Glad to have him back

[@stevecatpatrick8056]

Now he just needs a new mic/setup. I love his thoughts, wish I could hear them all and not have a frustration aneurysm from all the cutting out.

[@scenicplay]

Welcome back Tyler! Thanks for the show each and every week Vince :)

[@TerrierHalo]

If it’s Saturday and you’ve been really busy at work so you are late to the party but happy to see Tyler in his villain chair you better hit like.

[@spiritofgroot1999]

Saw how long the episode was and just wondered, I hope Tyler’s back - and here he is. Can’t wait to listen to this 0:00

[@Cranacti]

Would love spontaneous list review segment/episodes! Especially if it’s requirement for army photos to be sent in for extra hobby goodness 😊

[@cml4914]

One advantage of Morathi is that she makes 2k of DoK more financially viable. I agree that she doesn't really do enough for her points cost though.

[@VinceVenturella]

You're not wrong there, on either count.

[@leovaeg]

I love these Tier Lists! SC having lots of Deep Strikes is the core of "fair warhammer" because it teaches players how to FAIL at charges, and thus teaches the importance of not relying on a 9" charge for your whole plan that turn.

[@laronroberts1462]

Caught the end, but no matter what time you tune in its always worth the ride

[@maneferreira9825]

Fireslayers won the tournament I played last weekend. It was my first tournament in fact my first game of AOS. Loved it went 1-2 with my Sylvaneth. The only dark spot in my experience was..Lumineth Realmloards. WTF??? Don't need to roll dice to cast spells? Shoot 24" 40+ shots? Move - shoot- move???? I couldn't deal with them it was brutal. This is a fun game.

[@envaya9838]

good job man. You had your first game of AoS at a tournament, and then with sylvaneth of all armies? How does that even compute?

[@RadioFreeHammerhal]

Tyler has perhaps the classics recording room ever. Just missing the smoking jacket

[@jamielaing5244]

Slaanesh has LRL stockholm syndrome. 'Oh no you naughty elves don't tie me up and torture me!, oh if only I could escape, I totally would'

[@scotchandhobbies5674]

As usual, I miss the live stream, and as usual I start listening first thing Thursday morning

[@BreakingTad]

Good to have you back Tyler

[@scottbaker2451]

Thanks, guys! Great analysis. Lovely to see T back :)

[@VinceVenturella]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@haydnwilliams5027]

On the topic of SBGL, how black knights were costed at 160 was beyond me. They have damage potential, tons of wounds, a good save, recursion in both bringing models back and half of the unit and tons of movement. I wouldn't say them being upped in cost was pre-emptive by GW, I think it was throughly needed and that at 180, they're still great.

[@missKaotica]

Great to have Tyler back on the show his attitude and way of thinking is a great contrast to Vince and Tom. Great show guys all the best.

[@andrewwilson8802]

Thanks for the Palladors shout out Tyler

[@TylerEmerson]

Not only is it the greatest time to play Palladors, but MORE Palladors are on the way. The Era of Drew Is Upon Us.

[@andrewwilson8802]

@@TylerEmerson get ready, I'm already running all the palladors

[@stevekearns6173]

Yay, look who's back!

[@Flummoxed_Buffoon87]

Props on Tyler's setup glow up.

[@Dino-xz9dd]

I've played Kruelboyz since they got released and I love the army, but I was one of the few people who said the new index is stupid. The whole army is a bag of feels bad, either all my rolls go well and I just steamroll over my opponent without any interaction (because I do a million MW and make him fight last) or my important rolls fail and then I'm throwing wet paper towels around. It became a pure casino army, even worse then what Skaven used to be. I can't believe out of all the options they had they choose the worst possible implementation. They could have made it Dirty Trick Points and you gain 1 for every hero, or you just start each round with d3 - anything that does not involve rolling 2 2+ or get screwed.

[@RAWxxx07]

Same here. Kruleboyz was my entry into AoS and still is my main army. Won even our local AoS league with them when they were bottom tier the 8th or 9th time in a row. The new design is not fun at all. I totally agree with you. But everyone not playing them keeps telling me that this is such a strong army.

[@cyriltournier]

I think the first one should be automatic and it should degrade from here. But points could be fine too, it's just something I dislike mechanically. I don't understand the crocodile randomly harming the army it tries to buff either.

[@Dino-xz9dd]

@@cyriltournier Yeah they always double down on "random" armies. It's not punishment enough that we fail, we also have to take some damage for it (like the Swampcaller). It's frustrating

[@christophernobbs9417]

Welcome back Tyler! Missed you and the very welcome rambling. As to cities and soulblight - I hope both get more variance in the army abilities. In cities I miss 12 different cities. And in Soulblight I miss the mortachs having different focused armies and would love to see zombies rewritten to being a unit on a big base. But agree that is still probably small changes for both… although I think cities are going to get more human units and lose more non humans in the next book 😢

[@The_ZerGhoul]

Great show as always! About Tyler's idea of Soulblight being able to beta strike, that's what happened to me at a small scale tournament last weekend (1250 pts) as I was running Abraxia, Karkadrak and 2x3 Varanguards. I didn't fully understand the gimmick with Manfred redeploying the dire wolves into combat of my Khorne Varanguards (pretty much cutting my dmg in half from no charge), casting strike last one 3 of them and striking back with attack twice black knights to kill them before they got to do fight (Granted I am still very new to 4th edition and my list wasn't tactical at all but it worked well against it). Out of the armies I play, with the last section (changes), things I'd like to see: 1- S2D: More defined roles. I feel like too many units are competing for the same roles and that people normally will just gravitate towards the most efficient one points wise (Varanguard, charging knights, chosen, ogroids) + a more interesting subfaction for the "Warriors of chaos" that makes more sense thematically and easier to remember than stacking MW bombs on objectives. 2- LRL: Maybe help out Alarith a bit more (maybe I underestimate them but a 3+ save on the stoneguards would be nice or less reliance on the whole combo with the stone mage + cows to make the stoneguards worth it?). We know Harukan will probably get nerfed some more with the move+shoot. 3- Ironjawz: I think hitting on 4s and poor mobility are the 2 biggest issues here for an army with almost no tricks that is pure melee. I understand their idea of making the orcs less accurate but hit harder but as we've seen with other armies, there are lots of units that don't truly follow this design philosophy. 4- Kruleboyz: Something a bit more reliable or at least 1 ability that is guaranteed (I understand it may be too strong without stripping something though...)? 5- Seraphon: Maybe something defensive back for melee now that they lost the -1 dmg taken per hit and are on 4+ saves still? Perhaps it's taking into account the possible recursion with a Slaan and it's intentional, I don't know. Having a bit of flavor back to them to make them a bit more unique from the other melee armies would be nice. 6- Soulblight: I really want to play all the vampire heroes as well as bloodknights... I'm not as big of a fan of large blocks of chaff although I understand it is part of how to play the army. I also really hope they get a model refresh for old models, especially Prince Vordrai and maybe Neferata/Manfred/Nagash/graveguards/bats thing with their announcements this winter (fingers crossed). 7- OBR: I used to play 9 Stalkers and liked to play very elite lists. The new Morghasts are nice, I just really wish they would make Stalkers truly good again (maybe if they keep on dropping points to dirt cheap, they'll be worth it somehow). 8- Skaven: Warscrolls... can't see them to know what the new units do to even know if I want to get them and keep on playing the army :(

[@MrRichFitz]

Welcome back Tyler!

[@spatzilly]

this is a killer episode. i could watch this several times.

[@MightyMax2756]

They need to figure out how to incorporate some of these outlier armies into the primary game loop. I think an army like KO for example should be primarily a shooting army but they need to have some units that go out into the board that somehow make their shooting better. Like an endless spell that these “prospectors” go out to primarily gather resources from the endless spells that power up their shooting better

[@jacobjulin]

Great video, please continue to evolve on these tierlists!

[@VinceVenturella]

Thanks, will do!

[@neilspeas57]

Wholly crap it's Tyler!!! What's up?? Hope you're doing well!!!

[@greengargoyle6165]

Will there be a faction review for Bonesplitterz and Beasts of Chaos?

[@VinceVenturella]

At some point we will talk about them.

[@JBstufff]

That'd be amazing!​@@VinceVenturella

[@davisbailey6808]

Just got to Nurgle segment and now all I can picture/hear is a Great Unclean One sing Closer to Fine by Indigo Girls

[@TorrentKatten]

An idea for all the small heroes, especially in Soulblight, could be that they could join units. So you could take a Wight King with 10 or 20 grave guard and that would buff that unit in some way (that should stack with other buffs perhaps). So you would use points to add effects to heroes that are more or less fancy unit Champions. And they would be a part of that unit, something like 40k does it but more fun buffs than reroll X or +Y to Z. I really hate those

[@cmleibenguth]

"When piloted well, with good lists, I think they are A tier, I think they are one of the best armies in the game." That goes for nearly every army. Not every faction (some are over/under tuned), but nearly. Nearly every army has a few lists (or at least one) that do very well at the game in general and against other high end lists, even when both are piloted well. I agree with Vince and think the SCE are on the lower end of fine, at best. A few tricks, not to mention the GHB rules, enable their poor design this edition to not bring them all the way down to the depths of where some armies are in the "It's Rough" category. When the new book arrives, not to mention a new GHB next year, we'll see if that trend continues.

[@habardeen]

Seraphon’s dinos. Please. I am not playing the dinosaurs faction to play frogs and geckos looking at the stars. But I guess I will. Again. 😅 PS Team Tyler, letz gooo! PPS I understand that monsters are bad allround but Big Dinos and Monster Trucks I think are two staples that should be buffed and made playable. At the moment GW just killed them for no reason and seeing Seraphon up there in “just reprint” dont really feel right 😬

[@Swooper86]

I would absolutely watch RPG Weekly.

[@Gavriel01]

I can't really get behind "Shooting is dead" as long as Covering Fire exists. Even without the Honorguard buff. It's just all concentrated into one unit. Maybe there's no Tau style going on, but shooting should definitely still be top of mind while list building.

[@VinceVenturella]

Oh absolutely, Tyler was being sarcastic and making fun of my bad call.

[@kingcoltrain357]

Tyler is my favourite Warhammer nerd ever!

[@traiantulbure3819]

Loved seeing Tyler back, and thoroughly appreciate his enthusiasm for SBGL, however I must strongly disagree with his call to reprint the index. The core of the book remains the same (aka allegiance abilities) but over 50% of the options are complete trash and that goes for warscrolls, artefacts, command traits and sub factions (spell lore needs a rework too). It’s an indictment of 4.0 that despite that it reads as good compared to the other indexes. I’ll be gutted if (when) they do a reprint.

[@dariuschoksy6934]

I really disagree that mortek guard take buffs well. They have annoying nonbo’s with already having anti charge and not really being able to benefit from Katakros’ armor save buff

[@MightyMax2756]

I vote for a Vince venturella work productivity KZbin channel

[@visuellegedanken]

Vince, apart from Hurakan, what do you think is the movement response to board state army/list now? Like your old cities list. Love that style, but I don’t want to commit to Hurakan because I think they will drop like a rock after the next round of adjustements and in general LRL is just a bit too annoying. 🤣

[@VinceVenturella]

Probably Sylvaneth honestly.

[@visuellegedanken]

@@VinceVenturella I can see that. I‘ve been playing them forever, but got annoyed by the Wyldwoods and was so happy in 3rd with making terrain overgrown, but now that‘s gone again… I know you are in the same boat. And I really mourn the loss of all the warscroll teleports of the big trees. Oakenbrow was so much fun. Teleporting all the big trees in a single turn.

[@porumon5942]

As always appreciate it 🎉

[@VinceVenturella]

My pleasure!

[@zramirez5471]

The study of Game Theory would indicate that the best method for any game is to not engage with the game being played: any army that can NOT play 4ED is going to win hard

[@jameswilson6328]

i always enjoy a good Tyler show, please do more :-)

[@jerednolie6754]

Syvaneth is in a similiar spot as before the skill floor was just lowered. Still need to play really well to get wins

[@stevecatpatrick8056]

I don't think DOT needs much nerfs if any, manifestations need to be brought in and that will fix them because they just use manifestations the best. Maybe Kairos can get a little bit. But DOT only got like one unit that was being used buffed and that's the changeling, otherwise the other buffs were on units not used anyway. The LOC didn't need a nerf. Burning was above but also was a good decision for gameplay, as people weren't even using burning damage because it just fell off. 10 points per horrors was a big enough nerf to cancel out all the buffs when you bring 5 to 6 squads of them. If you look at the latest stats, If you sort by only September games to remove the early data DOT had a 49% win rate. They are in a good spot They shouldn't be touched, just the general game rules around manifestations like not summoning on the opponent's turn. The banishing changes are huge because your spells are useless if you have no casting buffs against DoT, But now you can just burn them to get banishes off and even with no bucks you can keep up with supercasters when you only need a five to get rid of something that needs an 8 to cast. Your spells are useless against DOT so turning off a couple of their manifestations that don't do anything to turn to go down like purple sun and grave tide is immensely strong for a buff. I think skyfires could go up a little bit in points, But I also feel like flamers aren't there and need to go down, well actually I don't think they need to go down I think they need another rend. The loss of the sub faction rend ia huge. DOT really does lack power projection, 12 in is nothing for range and often you have to dump your entire army into one unit to kill it. As you said Vince It's a small playerbase of very interested players playing it, So if you see the win rate kind of high it's just the flip side of storm cast. DOT is not that powerful if you scale it to who they should actually be balancing for which is pretty decent players but not top tournament. I also think that the game would be worse if it was more "fair". I mean you used the MTG analogy, But the best format In 1v1 MTG is legacy (obviously subjective but the point stands). I think all the armies should have their own asynchronous ways to break the rules and ability to Express skill and have a higher skill ceiling. To compare it to RTS is I don't want to play command and conquer or something where everyone has versions of the same thing on each side, I want to play starcraft where all the sides are quite different and doing their own different things. I also think that every army needs At least decent prospectors and right now they don't have it. Any army that needs to pay 150 or more for their prospectors It's just already at such a disadvantage. I think with maggotkin They need better prospector options. Maybe raise the cost of horticulus by 10 points and drop the cost of beasts by 15. Also give nurglings back The ability to deploy elsewhere on the board. Let them come out of terrain but be set up before the first battle round so they can be prospectors. I'm fine with not having a lot of damage quickly the army is about wearing people down but in order to make that work we have to be able to force the enemy to come to us and that means we need to be able to score battle tactics and start winning on that game Also none of the indexes should be reprinted. They need to be expanded greatly especially when it comes to subfactions and spells in the magic lore.

[@sneakybeak4032]

+1/+1 for Vince starting a MTG Show! Also, good or bad, im worried most battletomes will be barely different to the indexes like Skaven was...

[@LNRDi]

The fact that Nighthaunt is so high WR because of that 3rd rail grab Vince is describing at 51:50 makes me wonder if Nighthaunt is actually an impossible-to-balance faction at a conceptual level. Their problem right now is that they're far too durable and horde-y for ALSO being so mobile (as Vince said last week, it's wild that some of their units are so cheap in points for their stat lines.) But if their points went up significantly or they lost durability I get the feeling they would actually drop to like, 45% WR. Maybe there's no goldilocks zone for NH just like there isn't for KO (they're either busted wide open or they suck.)

[@VinceVenturella]

Actually, this is my worry as well, I think its a real tight rope at best.

​@@VinceVenturella would makeing them rather slow help?

[@VinceVenturella]

It would change the dynamic, but it would also feel strange. Depending what we're talking about, it might be crippling.

[@drzephy]

Seraphon feels quite fair right now, but I'd still put it in small changes. They need to go over all the monsters except mb snakey boy, and our spells mb need some more love as range is a big issue (we have very fast units and very slow wizards its awkward). Mb have the astrolith give more range once per phase or something idk. Edit: now that I think about it, since monsters are bad all over the game, then mb you remove that as a criteria and you can reprint the index I guess.

[@ghostmutton]

The new WWeekly meta is Tyler.

[@ThePingouin2ter]

Yay Tyler !

[@ruddendave]

I come for the meta, but I stay for the Janeane Garofalo lore.

[@christophernobbs9417]

If you are going to do a list show (which would be awesome) I would like to submit the following: Cities of Sigmar. Ironweld Guild Sorceress (120) [Brazier of Holy Flame] - 5 x Dark Riders (150) - 5 x Dark Riders (150) Runelord (120) [General] - 20 x Hammerers (300) - 20 x Irondrakes (300) Sorceress (120) [Master of Ballistics] - 20 x Darkshards (280) - 20 x Executioners (280) - 5 x Drakespawn Knights (180) 2000/2000pts 3 drops Generated by Listbot 4.0

[@ChristofferAndersson]

podcast! I would love it!

[@lat1n0_h0t]

I love Tyler being back, but for next time can you please test Tyler's mic before the podcast. He was cutting off so much that a lot of his points lost meaning/context bc his gate might be too high. Great episode like always

[@VinceVenturella]

Yes, we tested before for 15 minutes and it didn't happen until we went live, of course

[@lat1n0_h0t]

@@VinceVenturella something, something best laid plans lol. That always happens with tech, but thanks as always for these shows

[@akutch564]

You make a good point about melee except S2D and Ogors are both well performing armies and that's what they do. Give it one or two more balance passes and the game should be in a really good spot. Once Lumineth gets a few more point increases it should balance out.

[@markpandelidis2079]

31:00 Which is exactly why I think capping the objective scoring at 6 is dumb and the wrong choice. If you want to build an army that forgoes battle tactics in the later half of the game and you're on a map that has bigger scoring potential from objectives, you should be able to use that as a win path. Your turn is still capped at 10 points max. That's fine. But there should be more than 1 path to victory. IMO

[@TylerEmerson]

Definitely an interesting thought. Would be curious to play some games with this orientation.

[@TheKielecki]

Maybe Spike/Johnny/Timmy tierlist, and the list is a venn diagram?

[@VinceVenturella]

We did the S/J/T list after the index drop. :)

[@TheKielecki]

Aaah, must've missed that

[@Trolleri87]

They need to do something about Gordrakks horrible warscroll. Increase his points cost but make him a beast! He can barely manovuer because of his base and slow move, he has a sad -1 rend if not attacking a hero/monster but dies to a stiff breeze..

[@BrianB2DDunn]

Hey Vince I have a hard time figuring out my play style in aos and was hoping you may be able to help. My game I have the most time in is malifaux. My favorite team there has stuff that procs bonuses based on positioning in bubbles and is generally defensive and sticky with a few hammers doing some work. I know there won't be anything that transfers one to one but was hoping you might be able to point me in the right direction.

[@BrianB2DDunn]

The only other thing I could add to help is I play black/ blue lol

[@VinceVenturella]

So you are a johnny, you like tricks and careful play. Something like Soul Blight, tzeentch or maybe even Khorne in its current incarnation could work for you.

[@BrianB2DDunn]

@@VinceVenturella thanks a ton Vince!

[@brentlucas731]

Nurgle just needs it mortal non heros to have crit spread disease on one weapon profile per unit. Might need to limit the weapons to give disease one unit each phase.

[@PatRick-ru7qe]

In my heart Vince will always be a younger Boomer

[@VinceVenturella]

You wound me sir. ;)

[@colonelcabbage]

Beasts of Chaos absent again. We still exist!

[@Enballgroda1]

Go Tyler! TYYYYYLEEEER!!!

[@RadioFreeHammerhal]

I would say Slaanesh might be a solid alternate for 4th horseman

[@popanoel]

Vince with your great knowledge of the Game Workshop, how likely do you think Chorf are comming to AoS? They are the one faction I am waiting for the most for age of sigmar and wondered what are your thought about them.

[@VinceVenturella]

Impossible to tell, could never happen or happen next, both seem equally likely.

[@popanoel]

Thank you for your answer Vince, I will not hold my breath then but I do still hope they happen.

[@drzephy]

Idk if I'd put IJ in start over, because I feel you could just change mighty destroyer and bring back smashing and bashing and you'd be ok? (and fix gruntas) would that not go under small changes?

[@VinceVenturella]

And subfactions, and the mawcrusha boss, and the foot boss, and...

[@joehill6916]

Controversh but honestly gitz sans troggoths (or minimal, e.g. an anvil of six rockguts) are fine. Squigs and stabbas are perfectly cromulant, and gobbopalooza, sporesplattas and snufflas are super buff machines. There’s plenty of play there, it’s just that rockguts are so plainly the best unit that we haven’t seen enough of the other options. Spiders not good but they are on their way out.

[@davidcampbell621]

3 tier lists deserve 3 likes, but youtube will only let me like once

[@jfoerster]

TYLER!

[@chrish1645]

Is Tylers audio clipping like crazy? I feel like you're losing the ends of his sentences. Great show tho.

[@damianone4404]

Yep missing a lot

[@theredwizard9634]

Nurgle- plague bears 4+ save, Blightkings Crit hits, give plague drones their shooting attack back

[@6packproductions710]

Night haunt ethereal saves should be for heroes only.

[@fitzgigler]

If the soulblight book is pretty much just the index, I' m probably out for this edition. I don't own enough dire wolves to play a competent list, nor enough black knights, so I'd just bow out.

[@TylerEmerson]

FWIW I've been running Mannfred, Cado, Necromancer, 20 Skeletons, 20 Grave Guard, 10 Dire Wolves, 8 Trueblades, 5 Blood Knights, and 5 Black Knights. It's felt quite solid.

[@018music018]

S2D: all suggestions were good as far as the tome, but to me the most egregious thing is the subfactions, they're all terrible. If they only tweaked those and nothing else I'd be happy (though buffing darkoath is arguably just as big)

[@CrazyTom34]

Millennial here, you're both super gen x, in the best ways too

[@Hedonite]

I wonder if the tomes feel lacking in rules due to the out of phase charging and spell casting and stuff. Overall, i really enjoy 4th, though

[@ddd_martin59]

Wait wait wait. First you say 'not playing AoS' is what make an army strong but then KO, who are playing absolutely nothing at all, are in the trash?? Well which is it? :3

[@VinceVenturella]

I said all the armies that were winning (for the most part) were not playing the primary loop, not the other way around.

[@gregoryjordan1740]

Guess who's back. Guess who's back.Guess who's back.Guess who's back.

[@RadioFreeHammerhal]

Ooo ooo, I heard the tax man bat signal! Yes, churches are 501(c)(3)

[@voice9893]

Its Just silly to me that varanguard get to choose their Mark of Chaos. Make them undivided Like archeon bellakhor or abraxia. If you have 3 varanguard khorne on the Charge you are getting actually 4 varanguards worth of Attacks and they arent pointed towards their Mark of Chaos. Or nurgle and be even more of a statcheck. Just make them undivided you can at least try to hide your Heroes from them. Also all cavally Units shouldnt get +1 damage on the Charge but rather a rend or Something. To me its really weird that oh i just reinforce my light cav and clear a unit than next time they are free to Go again give them +1 to wound and another Point of rend or Something on the Charge.

[@jimskaven5963]

Oof. I did NOT want a "Reprint the index" for Skaven. That battletome needs to be jettisoned into a super nova. The general army rules are fine, but those battle traits are just uninspiring. And the way army list building works, it's a chore to build a list. Also, where are the damned Eshin? The rest of Pestilens? Choosing three units and rolling a d6 and hoping for a 2+. Bland. They could have built off the bones of the 3rd edition battletome, and letting the heroes chosen determine what "extras" you got, which was extremely Skavenie. It's a word. Disposable foot heroes, clanrats, and guns. Points can fix that problem, but nothing but a complete delete can return the flavor of the Skaven. So much has been lost that had been a given for more than THIRTY freaking years. Clearly, given that the Skaven are the launch faction, none of that was going to happen. But my, God, this nonsense better not carry over into 5th.

[@JackCawood]

So many foot heros need to be changed to be able to be taken as sub commanders and the points on these little guys need to come down. 160 points for a lord of hubris or lord of pain is WAY off.

[@BuffShamansplz]

The "rewrite, small buffs or not" part is a little iffy for me. In the context of "this is 4e now, this is how the game is" I could agree with some choices. If the target is to be as fun as 3e was for me or as exciting then we're going to need a lot more out of battle formations, and rules complexity. OBR for example feels like they could make the lesser parts of the army more appealing but overall the amount of customization in the army went down and it feels more like a Timmy/Spike army than a Johnny/Spike army it was before, but that's not uncommon with 4e armies. The game is super hit & miss with how I feel about the faction packs. SCE feels better, SBGL still has 150 point zombies and expensive chaff, OBR lost pretty much any feeling of being a death army (pretty much zero model return) and the decision points are an illusion of choice for the battle traits. Feels like army size has been homogenized too much in terms of units (not models on the board). List building is very weird, the stat growth doesn't make any sense for how many points you're putting into infantry vs elite infantry vs cav.

[@Descent9]

I see Tyler and I hit like 😊

[@ryanburruss]

Big Tyler stan here! Glad to have you back, buddy

[@drzephy]

are we getting political jokes just cause of Tyler being there :P ?

[@VinceVenturella]

More that it's just stuff in the zeitgeist. :)

[@stuartshadwell7249]

I’m a xennial born in 83. Prolly more x in temprement

[@spiritofgroot1999]

Too keen on trees. They need a fair bit of work. The best work was the patch they did. Every warscroll other than Belthanos probably needs looking at Lore isn’t great, 1 of the spells is basically the battle trait. Hero traits and artefacts are boring and poor. Formations are mostly worthless

[@timeandspacemonkey]

Man being an ogor player is rough... they are fast but damm they SUUUCK

[@damianone4404]

Holy we missing half of what tyler Said

[@chubbychalupa4175]

The reason Khorne is soo bad right now is exactly the reason you put out for the top armies. They aren’t playing AoS and all Khorne can do is play AoS

[@chubbychalupa4175]

I made this comment before watching got he end. But holy fuck Tyler needs to fix his audio. I heard maybe 40% of what he has to say because he cut out the whole time.

[@Baalberitus]

Go for a shadowrun show :)

[@sunshineinblack9383]

TEAM TYLER 4 LIFE

[@lassedybmark7398]

Khorne is a rewrite, for sure..

[@thorncap667]

I’m new can someone explain to me what he means by porcupine? 😂

[@lukevassh7740]

A defensive unit that deals out good damage upon being attacked. 👍

[@Jamestheroman]

Man, Tyler's cutting out a ton in this

[@VinceVenturella]

Yeah, I am going to work with him to try to figure out why that was happening.

[@ThePunisher_88]

I hate the new edition. :(

[@VinceVenturella]

What specifically is getting to you. REal question, as I am trying to collect information from folks that are frustrated.

[@ThePunisher_88]

@@VinceVenturella I could be entirely wrong, but from my perspective it seems like both 40k and AoS have both been going down the same road. Armies seem to be getting extremely simplified while the missions are becoming overly complex. I quit current 40k a long time ago in 8th I think so I can't really comment on the current state of that but it doesn't look like it's for me sadly. I'm still playing 7th edition. From the games of AoS I've played, the armies are very bland and mostly just sit in a big blob in the middle due to the extreme limitations of ability ranges. At least thus far that's been my experience. I myself prefer more simple missions with complex armies and interactions. 3rd edition was already annoying me with the last couple GHBs they put out. Idk. More and more it feels to me (and all of my friends agree) like GWs games are not being made for us. Also I really hate the coherency and smaller table sizes.

[@traiantulbure3819]

I share some of the same feelings RE 4.0 I generally like what they’ve done with the core rules, but I feel like they have sacrificed a lot of flavour, personality, choice and fun with the faction packs. The factions generally feel incredibly oversimplified to me, lacking in depth, and sadly generic. Particularly relating to spell lores, enhancements and sub factions, with the choices being roughly halved and still the majority of them are just plain bad. Additionally I think manifestations are a blight on the game. I intensely dislike how much sway they have on the game state, especially when they’re not even part of the army I’ve spent hundreds of hours crafting and painting. I was really hyped for 4.0 during the build up, but if I’m being honest I feel like there’s more about the edition that I dislike than I like which really disappoints me. I also feel like I’m not the target audience and am being overlooked in favour of appealing to newer players.

[@traiantulbure3819]

(Additionally list writing feels formulaic and problematic as Vince has discussed at length on previous shows)

[@RuffStuff420]

If every game is supposed to be played in a specific way to win then the game is an absolute failure. Every army should play different and win differently in some way than every other army. If not then why have different armies at all? The entire idea that every army should play the same way and win the same way as every other army is so fundamentally flawed it's just mind boggling these things are even being said, let alone agreed with. Also, for someone saying shooting isn't as powerful as in the past to be a huge fan of skaven is mind boggling. I have a local guy playing skaven, and it's shooty skaven, and he has gunned down 1/3rd of my MoN army on his turn one.

[@VinceVenturella]

Okay, so I feel I must not have communicated something properly here. At no point did I say every army should play the same, nor that that would be good. That was not what I said nor meant, so I apologize if I didn't communicate that clearly. I am talking about the primary loop, a game design term of what the core assumption of the game, the most often repeated rule and core of the game. Which for AoS is a movement, combat, trading game. That is the fundamental game (moving into a place, charging, making attack rolls, saves and so on). As I said, in the episode, a healthy game has a large number of different play patterns that layer on top of that, using the primary loop to a greater or lesser degree. SOme armies are going to be completely different in their game plan. As was discussed with the magic analogy, the challenge is when the other play modes become the dominant, winning or majority - that is when the game becomes unhealthy. But what you are pushing on seems to be the idea of path to victory, that is a completely different discussion. Path to victory is how you are using the primary loop and other ephemera together to achieve victory (for exmaple, a castle strategy, alpha bunkering, alpha strike - whatever). Those may or may not utilize the primary loop but a healthy game should certainly have many, many paths to victory. I hope that all helps explain what we are discssing with more clarity. (Also, side note, yes, I have said on multiple shows that Skaven shooting is good and it makes me sad, also we were discussing how I was wrong and shooting has become more and more powerful).

[@RuffStuff420]

@@VinceVenturella I don't see how any army is "breaking" that fundamental loop. Your complaint, again, is against the Nighthaunt, specifically wave of terror, and frankly, it is good, but far from something to keep complaining over, and no were near game breaking. If you lose to nighthaunt and the whole reason in your mind is "wave of terror" then I think you need to rethink it. If there is a specific unit you don't want to have benefit of Wave of Terror then focus them down. We have 50-50 armor saves, and a bad ward save, we die, a lot, to mass attacks. I am pretty sure every army has at least one unit that can rain down just massive numbers of attacks, those are the bane of nighthaunt. Massed 1 damage attacks = lots of dead nighthaunt. The more you roll 50-50 saves the less 50-50 it looks in the long run more often than not. Every army needs something that makes them unique, even if it's something like, ya know, autocasting spells on a 10 all game long. Needing to kill 2 models at the same time in order to remove them from the board. Self resurrecting a god character that then heals itself to full. BTW, yes, I play nighthaunt, no I haven't played them once in 4.0. I have been focusing on my MoN, and I have beaten every nighthaunt player I have played so far. And no, I am not playing against opponents the caliber that you are, but they aren't far off, we have some very competitive people around here, and I am not the best of them.