Fixing Gen 2's Level Curve

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[@perrycarters3113]

The fact that there is unironically mandatory routes between mid-late game gyms with sub-level 20 wild pokemon and trainers is absolutely wild to me in the vanilla game.

[@theangrycolossal]

I feel like if you're going to bump up the levels of the wild encounters in the process of adjusting the EXP curve of the game, it would make a sense to give an added boost to the levels of Pokemon encountered on Route 43/around the Lake of Rage even beyond what other routes would get. It would fit within the lore due to the Rocket signal and give an interesting risk-reward ratio where players who want to face Pryce first will have harder encounters first but gain EXP faster for the rest of the path, while players who face Chuck first will have a more consistent level of challenge.

[@WhatHappenedIn-vt3vq]

Would be a wet dream for speed runners and nuzluockers

[@Jacob-df5hr]

Giving the rocket signal some real consequence to the game would actually be so incredibly cool.

[@davidml8806]

Actually sounds like a damn good idea Show that it affected more pokemon in the area than just the red Gyarados

[@hippotuskman7808]

Crystal kazio is this

[@hippotuskman7808]

And I’m a month in and only at mahogany rocket hideout. Rocket executives having 6 65+ lvl Pokémon

[@flarespawnkryptgodd3384]

A game design detail that you may have overlooked is that the gym leaders' names are in all caps in dialogue boxes in gens 1-4, as are names of pokemon, attacks, and items. It would make the rom hack generally appear cleaner to keep this in mind while writing new dialogue.

[@Shalakor]

Oh, nice detail.

[@SerDerpish]

This always annoyed me. It’s like they were randomly yelling certain words at me. I never got used to that😖

[@13KuriMaster]

I'm surprised Gym leader's don't scale yet in the actual games. I always figured that they were canonically using different teams based on how many gym badges you had (Brock only pulling out 2 pokemon in Generations and a comment made by Cheren in BW2 further convinced me of this) but there was no gameplay element reflecting that.

[@melfice999]

Gamefreak themselves has hinted at this multiple times as well both with its Anime's and Mangas, as well as other side material related to pokemon.

[@roberteospeedwagon8178]

It's such a shame that in SCVI they don't scale. All that open world and yet you're still 'pushed' towards a suggested path for gym leaders. Honestly if they wanted an endgame challenge you could have the last Gym Leader be like gen 1- not battleable until you beat the other 7. Could even apply this to the last Star and Titan battles

[@RancorSnp]

It depends on the region. The most notable region in which the gym leaders DO openly hold back in the gym challenge is Galar. The whole theme of Galar was about being THE grandest, THE biggest, and as such it's gym leaders are canonically THE strongest, many of them being good enough to be champions in other regions onyl being gate kept by Leon. (actually, a bunch of Galar gym leaders WERE champions of Galar before Leon grew up). And the story repeats the fact they are using weaker teams for the challenger while only using their real teams for the tournament, Nessa even uses a non Gigantamax male ace during the gym challenge while Gigantamax female ace in the torunament. But in many other regions, the dialogue makes it clear that the gym leaders are using their A game in your gym battle, and then in the post-game rematches (the canonicity of which is debatable) they will openly say "I trained very hard after losing to you, I am much stronger than I was before" rather than "okay, let me use my top team". Excuse me for being pretty vague as I write this purely from my memory, so I can not name the exact source, but I feel like Flannery has a similar quote in the post game Paldea is interesting because it is somewhere in between the two. The bug gym leader openly states that she is having her Pokemon hold back for the fights, not using a different team, but asking her Pokemon to pretend to be level 18. However, outside of her, the implication is that the gym leaders are about as strong as they care to be during the battle, and only at the end of the game, when you are sent to evaluate if they are worthy of being gym leaders, they actually try - using the same Pokemon you fought last time, just aren't half-assing it this time. And again Bug gym leader is interesting again because that evaluation really got her worked up and she decides that from now on she will take the fights seriously, so next time some students decide to grab their first badge they will be met with level 65 Pokemon on the gym leader side ^^' I'm not sure if I managed to make the Paldea section clear. The way I understand the writing, the implication is that gym leaders of Paldea are technically level 60ish, but they are sloppy, lazy, didn't train in a while, don't feel like it, or feel bad for the challengers, resulting in their teams not being at their full power anymore, until their job is on the line. So yeah : - Kanto, Johto and Hoenn I believe are confirmed to mostly be gym leaders fighting you with everything they got, this is just how strong they are. - Galar has trainers using different teams depending on what order they are this year (canonically there's a gym for every type in Galar, and they have a separate tournament to decide who among them gets to participate in the championship) - Paldea implies that trainer Pokemon can hold back, or get weaker over time if not trained properly I do not remember enough to say where other gens are on the spectrum

[@13KuriMaster]

@@melfice999 I figured there were other hints I didn't know/remember... which makes it even more infuriating that the game play doesn't reflect it.

[@13KuriMaster]

@@roberteospeedwagon8178 Exactly, SCVI are without a doubt THE games where the gym leaders should have scaled since you can take them on in any order.... the Titan Fights and Star battles could at least have excuses as those are less likely to want to test you and hold back for weaker trainers (storywise).

[@JohnSmith-lh3ht]

For me the biggest gripe to make with Gen 2's level scaling was how things dropped off in Kanto until you hit Blue. The average Kanto trainer is only mid 30s to low 40s.

[@ottokarl5427]

Guess you could call that "lore locked"...why would some random trainer in Kanto have stronger Mons than the Champ of Johto? Ofc gameplay-wise it made grinding for Red a nightmare

[@spookydooms]

My fix: Trainer cards emit a small wireless signal for IRL matchmaking. They're linked to badge count, so the trainers you "!" are those who noticed their card beeping and you passing by. All of a sudden, the trainers' level curve can be whatever I need. Plus it suddenly makes sense why Region 2 has "tougher" trainers than the champion. Throw in professors calling you to check in, some side content with reporters wanting interviews, the occasional challenger summoning you to Indigo Plateau for a climactic battle, and you now have a) champion-level engagement with the post-game and b) reasons why not EVERYONE at "higher" team levels wants to march through Victory Road and play "king of the mountain" with the championship belt. Plus, the championship challengers could be fun nods to the early anime. (Anyone else wanna see Duplica back with 4 high-leveled Dittos? Just me?)

[@dannigro8794]

Today I learned that you can fight Pryce as a fifth gym leader. I never thought you could. I thought that there was always a certain order and Pryce had to be seven. And I’ve been playing this game for almost 23 years.

[@jakofthefrost]

Same dude I’m like “wat?” hearing him say this

[@sweetheartmashupsbabe]

Once I found out I usually went with pryce as gym 5 because its easier lol

[@butteredsalmonella]

I find it funny that RBYFRLG also did the Gym-skipping thing between gyms 4-5-6 but actually did it right. Koga and Sabrina's levels are incredibly high and are also very identical in level and to compensate, gives you a massive amount of routes to grind your Pokemon for. Between the routes connecting Celadon to Fuschia and Lavender to Fuschia and all the Team Rocket spots that you have to do including Hideout for Silph Scope, Tower for Pokeflute and Silph Co. for Sabrina's Gym. Gym 5 and 6 levels aren't inconsistent irregardless of order and the grinding spots are limitless and the fact that Koga and Sabrina have around Level 38+ Pokemon means you might actually end up fighting them underleveled. The gap between Erika to Koga/Sabrina is actually a 9 level gap going from Level 29 Vileplume to Level 38 Kadabra/Koffing and the fact that you can also skip Erika is just funny to me. Unlike GSC, they're not leaving you underleveled, the bosses you fight aren't underleveled and you have the option to fight the bosses underleveled all under the fact that you may fight them under your preferred order. You can even be cheeky and fight Koga for Surf which unlocks even more grinding routes and you may also fight Blaine first which I think is even more underleveling incarnate.

[@SereKabii]

yep you can't talk about how cool it is that gen 2 *tried* to make split paths work when gen 1 literally did the same and actually made it work by having the gym leaders so brutally overpowered cleaning all your available routes first is quite literally your only real option

[@amale441]

Wait, so it's possible to go Brock>Misty>Koga>Blaine>Sabrina>Erika>Lt.Surge>Giovanni?

[@nonamehero5570]

​@@amale441yep, as long as you dont have any traded mon cause you would need the badges in the correct order for them to obey you.

[@adhdsenpai]

Yeah, I watch Jrose and he actively in his solo poke runs uses this, choosing to skip leaders to where he can optimally get a good run time haha it was well designed unlike new mons

[@danielquinlan2457]

@@SereKabii It also helps that the game gives you Fly in Celadon before the path split.

[@hwoarangthedoorbell]

Would you be able to alter the Trainer Card so that Jasmine is listed at #7 instead of Pryce? I think that would help signal to the player that she should be fought 7th and I think it’s a small enough change that it won’t interfere with the overall vision of the Crystal romhack.

[@shadowfreak5859]

Massive agree!

[@mimejrice-cream7291]

Highly agree on this. The main reason why I always did chuck jasmine pryce is because that's the path the game itself shows. For years I never even knew you could do another order for the leaders. This small visual change should reflect these changes while still keeping it, you know, johto.

[@CheckUnderYou]

This. Pryce never felt like Gym 7 material.

[@MikeWK29]

OH i forgot the trainer card had an order for gym leaders. But then the trainer card, physical location and even events of the story, all suggest that she should be fought 6th. It seems like an overreaction to shift everything just bc Steelix was 1 level higher than Dewgong in the original game

[@dlake1224]

I disagree, if you want Jasmine to be 7th then she needs to be more out of the way. Or that you get the medicine while doing the rocket storyline or something

[@TheZackofSpades]

I just want to say I love the little animation quirk of the glasses bulba getting closer to the screen. It really creates the illusion of someone leaning-in to emphasize a point.

[@TastySouP-ic7kq]

@16:59 what if you expanded the lore with the sick ampharos by saying that they need to work in pairs, one resting with jasmine and the other working the tower. Have her explain that they can’t keep the tower lit using just one ampharos, but the sick one can’t keep working either. Maybe something like that to explain why she has an ampharos in her party, and one still working at the lighthouse.

[@Toast_94]

I love this idea. It could even be a random NPC that mentions something about it, a lot of NPCs in gym towns tend to talk about the local gym leader.

[@ivanbluecool]

Yeah from Chuck to Pryce. I found the levels weird constantly. Also can't wait to see how the kanto gyms will be fixed especially Janine

[@Cripplified]

I can't wait to see the Kanto changes and for it to feel more like an actual post game challenge.

[@shadowtitanx3962]

Meanwhile, Gen 9 Level scaling be like:

[@welshlout3400]

Kanto…yeah. It’s the Chuck-Jasmine-Pryce problem but applied to nearly a whole region’s worth of gym leaders who barely scale above the elite 4, if even that. A player who survived 5 consecutive battles against teams of lvl 40-50 now has to fight…7 teams of lvl 40-50, but you can take breaks in between them! But a couple of those teams have 3 pokemon…and actually 1 of those 7 is more like lvl 35-40! Anyways, I’d be impressed if Kanto’s gyms got the same treatment as Johto badges 5/6/7 here. I’d settle for a more simplified version, too. No need for 7 variants of the same team imo. Each would only need maybe 3 different team variants each. Gym 1 & 2 use team 1, 3 & 4 use team 2, etc. Oh yes, and it goes without saying, but if Janine wants to be just the weakest gym leader in Kanto, she’s still going to have to grind her whole team about 10 levels. Janine! It’s cute that your team is leveled beneath your dad’s team, but where is the real gym leader?

[@Cripplified]

@@welshlout3400 the problem about 5/6/7 in Johto is the dynamic leveling and team depending on the route taken and how it's part of the main storyline. Kanto can just have adjusted levels and teams that are static but more challenging compared to the Elite 4, or at least similar. Those changes are quite simple to implement.

[@christopherfleetwood5252]

@@welshlout3400that’s definitely a story point though, the Elite Four are supposed to be the strongest of both regions. 😅

[@nicholaslugiano5092]

I’m one of the rare few that grew up fighting jasmine as 5th leader and always wondering why she was so much harder than chuck or Pryce. Watching these videos makes me realize I made gen 2 harder on myself than it needed to be😭 would definitely love a crack at this rom, crystal and gen 2 hold a special nostalgia for me that your videos bring back in full force. Thanks for bringing back some memories for me and keep up the great work! Love the vids!

[@nousername191]

So wait, you went to get the medicine at Chuck's town and you didn't just beat him while picking up the medicine?

[@michelschols8918]

So what you're saying is you cared so much about Amphy, you rushed the medicine back to the Lighthouse in Olivine City without a second thought about Chuck (or Pryce)? Awwww...

[@nousername191]

@@michelschols8918 But beating Chuck gets you fly and you can fly back instantly.

[@mistahl5350]

To add to the incentive to fight Jasmine 7th, make a second item needed to cure Amphy to pick up in Mahogany (after the Gyarados encounter). Maybe a special bottle Amphy likes the design of, or some kind of herb/taste modifier so it'll actually take it. Then make both items require the player to prove themself somehow, through a tough quiz or puzzle, or simply having the area's badge. They still get the training from getting to these places in the first place, so Jasmine isn't as bad as just going to her after Morty, if people want to fight her 5th.

[@ottokarl5427]

This feels less like incentives and more like punishment. "Oh you want to fight her early? Well then prepare to do a lot of unnecessary sight-seeing before you can do it, because...reasons."

[@mistahl5350]

@@ottokarl5427 I mean, to be fair, you already have to do about half of that to challenge her as the 5th anyway (sailing to Cianwood), this just gives a subtle helping hand to help the player handle her a bit easier. You are right, though, incentivize was a poor choice of wording. And in the off-chance you decide to face her before Chuck, you already have to Surf to Cianwood, Surf back to Olivine, then, eventually, Surf *back* to Cianwood again. Someone following this route is punishing themself just from that alone, whether they know it or not. Getting some extra training before a difficulty spike isn't, imo.

[@ottokarl5427]

@@mistahl5350 I understand your goal, to make Jasmine "easier" for those who try her first out of the three, but actually you make her less attractive. Doing Jasmine as 5th is already an illogical choice. But if you have to do not one, but actually two areas before you can do her...why would you? Remember, you would have to do both of those checks without Fly, since that requires the Storm Badge. I can see that someone might get the Secret Potion and return to the Lighthouse, kind of a "one quest at a time" philosophy. But when you then also have to travel the entire way to the east, maybe even do Lake of Rage...that just sounds like a pain in the ass.

[@mistahl5350]

The idea of having the two areas to go to is to help players know that they're making a potentially painful commitment to have her as the #5 badge. It's designed to make her unattractive as #5 on purpose. And in the grand scheme of things, I'm adding...what 20 minutes of travel time and however many mandatory trainers between Ecruteak and the Lake of Rage? It honestly feels like it wouldn't take any longer to get the potion in vanilla Crystal, so it wouldn't be that out of the way. Besides, if I REALLY wanted to make her unattractive as #5, I'd have thrown in the Rocket HQ as a requirement :P The person in Mahogany that gives you item #2 (hell could even be Lance at the Lake right away when you're done with the shiny boy) is worried about the raging pokemon, but not enough about the strange signals. I mean, heck, a lot of the backtracking could be solved by getting an Abra for teleport, if you can manage to not need healing between Olivine and the outer towns. Get one item, Teleport back, go get the other, Teleport back, ready for Jasmine. Yeah, might mean not a fully party of pokemon, or one 'dead' move slot, but the time saved.

[@ottokarl5427]

@@mistahl5350 Pretty sure player who play this ROM will know about the painful commitment part :D The purpose of the Secret Potion was to a)tell you that there is an entire city on the other side of the sea and b)to push players to do Chuck before Jasmine. If you add another item, you push players to also do Pryce before her. In fact, if you wanted to truely incentive player to do her first, you probably would need to remove the Secret Potion from the game entirely...but that is part of the Gen2 experience so I would truely hate that

[@SienAppelsien]

This made me think of how it wouldve been fun to have this kind of midgame trifecta in gen 4 with maylene, crasher wake and fantina. It does feel like they wanted to try it in diamond and pearl but didnt succeed and thats why fantina is 5 while being the 3rd you encounter technically

[@TheJazzMan333]

If you want to justify Jasmine having Ampharos on her team. You, the player, gives Jasmine the Secret Potion. She says he's looking better but she wants to see if this is the case with a pokemon battle when you're ready. After defeating her, the light can be visible from the lighthouse.

[@SamGBSR]

I like the idea of routes having “boss trainers” or when the last obligatory battle of some routes has a more difficult team that the usual. I think it makes “earning” a new location more rewarding. Any thoughts!

[@TheGamingCamel22]

Yeah Sun and Moon, LG Eevee and Pikachu, and SV had something like that, which is great, but they're not obligatory

[@Kumandrake]

im making a romhack as well and i considered this, there are several "boss" trainers in both maps

[@tomato2517]

Reminds me of those double ace trainers at the end of the route right before Veilstone in DPPT. Who else remembers how tough they were?

[@xepikhybridx602]

Honestly, this is what ShockSlayer did for Pokémon Crystal Clear. Each gym you battle raises the level curve of trainers and gym leaders, as well as updating the teams for the leaders, with the win. This was it allowed you the open world option, without giving you trainers and leaders with massive level differences and underwhelming teams

[@BlackCatRedScarf]

It's a great system on Crystal Clear, despite some... Oddities, like the adding Ho-Oh on Morty team or the replacement of Elite 4 by a totally different team without well defined specialties... That would be more suitable as a post game team separated from the Elite 4. Otherwise, really cool project. I played a lot and I keep it ony phone for fun.

[@88porpoise]

The fact that Game Freak didnt do this in SV is just ridiculous to me. Especially when they game clearly shows that Gym Leaders do adjust their teams to the situation (see Larry, and also how Nemona is told to not use her regular pokemon against you). It would be super easy to explain that they bring out higher leveled pokemon to face trainers with more battles. Similarly, for the Team Star bases, you can talk about how the leaders are redoubling their training efforts after seeing the other bases fall making them stronger. The Giant Pokemon arr a weorder situation because they are trying to firce a more natural development of your movement abilities with the different difficulties of the fights, so I would leave as is.

[@ThePawnslayerChessVideos]

A SmithPlays Pokemon's video in 10 years: "I fixed the world's BIGGEST problems!"

[@storminajar]

All of these videos make me so excited to stream this game once it's finished! Small suggestion, have you thought about changing the Pokemon you can get as rewards in the game corner in Goldenrod? Abra, Cubone, and Wobbuffet are fine enough, but I think you could definitely make some changes to make those prize pokemon a little more exciting!

[@blockdragonspecialsummonne7887]

replace them with the kanto-exclusive gen 2 mons (misdreavus, houndour, slugma)

[@pookiegaming75]

The game corner would be a cool way to get the kanto starters

[@CheckUnderYou]

Getting the Kanto starters that way would be cool. What about Celadon? Johto starters?

[@pookiegaming75]

@@CheckUnderYou maybe the fossils and eevees

[@CheckUnderYou]

@@pookiegaming75 He said he was putting the fossils as rare finds in Union Cave (since it's right under the ruins of alpha, and it's all water down there). I don't think eevee's location changes from where you normally get it.

[@tine307]

I'd replace one of Morty's Haunters with a Misdreavus, so that his team isn't just one gen 1 evolution line. Also I'd swap out the Growlithe that you can catch before Morty's gym with a Houndour, so that the player has a chance to get a dark type before beating the elite 4. Swapping a fire dog with a fire-dark dog before a ghost gym is a good way to do it.

[@jakewilliams1344]

It's so funny because I was literally searching for rom hack like yours, now I'm really invested. I really really am excited to play this when it's finally finished

[@jpcsdutra]

The dillema with this split path in particular is that it is trying to replicate Gen 1's mid game design without doing Gen 1's mid game design. Gen 1 does a lot of "You could go to A or B, but to go to A you need C, so better go to B now". This happens all the time. Victory Road or Veridian Forest? Well I don't have badges. Rock Tunnel or Vermillion? Well I don't have Cut. Do I follow this route or go back to Rock Tunnel? Well I don't have the pokéflute. After the point you're done with Celadon the first time you can actually choose opens up. Are you doing Fuschia, or Saffron? Most players will naturally flow down the map because Snorlax will be the closest problem and it's the place you clearly haven't been to, but at this point in the game you've seen all 4 entrances to Saffron and the game has teased it for a while. At this point you've already able to have Fly too, so the backtracking is reduced, so the level curve feels less aggressive. Gen 2 tries to do that, but it ultimately fails. No city is teased the same way as Saffron is; and Ecruteak and Golden Rod which are more or less the hub don't have a reason to be revisited soon after like that for you to want to go to the other side. My conclusion is that level scalling is a great idea and all, but this game would probably flow better if it was linear, for real. And you can do that by using Crystal's brand new character, Eusine: Giving him a little more presence, before you're done with the Gym and Burned Tower, he blocks the west exit after gym 4 Morty trades places with him and tells you he is worried about his friend's obsession and asks you to follow him to the front of Mt Mortar where he chases Suicune to. From there you flow to Lake of Rage, deal with TR's Hideout (Level grind appropriate for the space between gym 4 and 5). Eusine tells you Suicune went to Cianwood. Pryce tells you he'll be a while before his challenge because he's dealing with the fallout/escapees. Elm calls you and tells you he heard your rival stole another Pokémon in Cianwood. (It's true, he gets his Sneasel from the same trainer that gifts you a Shuckle). From here the game goes back to normal, although I'd like to say... as iconic as it is, I'd probably scrap Jasmine's quest for Ampharos' medicine and open a new sea route from Cianwood to Goldenrod. Going from Chuck as Gym 6 to Rocket Radio Tower is a perfect flow and justified level grind before Gym 7. This stream lining only has you backtracking from Mahogany to Ecruteak once instead of making you visit Olivine twice, however many times you go through Mahogany, until you figure out to go back to Goldenrod for some reason. You're also guaranteed to get fly after Chuck so you'll for sure have it with you too. If the design philosophy was supposed to be 1:1 and perfected, Goldenrod should actually probably be the 6th gym itself. Using Slowpoke Tunnel from Azalea to just outside of Ecruteak allows for Goldenrod to be as teased and as important as Saffron was in Gen 1 with a lot less backpedalling, and also maybe reworking Sudowoodo to be better like Snorlax was; but at this point you're not just cutting one choice, you're rewriting the game.

[@signum18]

I do like the idea of adding purpose. Just Jasmine telling me "yo I'm strong AF go fight Pryce first" is not a good incentive. But the medicine can be moved from Cianwood to Mahogany town. The rocket hideout there is canonically a kind of pharmacy.

[@jpcsdutra]

@@signum18 Moving the Pharmacy is one good way to change a couple of things. After commenting I gave it a bit more thought. I think Jasmine functions pretty much the same without the fetch quest, you just need to make her be the fetch quest once instead of going there, talking to her, going to Cianwood and then back up the lighthouse. Just have the Gym Guide say "oh, she's finishing taking care of the sick Ampharos up the lighthouse. Go fetch her to have your battle". Her character stays the same, she can just have handld Ampharos the medicine. This way you only climb the lighthouse once and you can actually make it a better, more challenging run this time.

[@sebastianaliandkulche]

You decided to speak nothing but facts.

[@nc5958]

My idea to make Johto more linear is to make Pryce the fifth gym leader by placing a whirlpool roadblock in Route 40. I don't know where to find hacking tools to edit the game to place new roadblocks on the map. There might be other ways to make the game more linear.

[@Undrave]

I don't know why anyone would go to Pryce first when going to Chuck opens up the super convenient FLY HM!

[@NasirSenpai]

I’m surprised you didn’t decide to pull a HGSS and block off Pryce’s gym until beating chuck and jasmine to give him his canon position as gym leader number 7. While I prefer that more standard approach I most certainly see the appeal of your approach. Well done for all this thought and work.

[@demi-femme4821]

I feel like studying BW2's code for how it handles Challenge Mode/Easy Mode would be a good idea for this dynamic level scaling. It gives every trainer a flat level bonus, including random one-off trainers like Youngster Terrel, whose Patrat goes from Level 4 to level 5.

[@matteolovito872]

I would suggest adding some lines of dialogue for the gym leaders where they say “oh so you have 6 badges? then I’m gonna prepare myself” and stuff like that. they would make them feel more alive as it seems like they’re choosing their specific team depending on how strong you are

[@MarcusAlexandre1921]

Or some npc blocking the gym and only leaving when you get the other badges

[@BeyondTrash-xe1vs]

I just want to say, I'm so glad you started this channel man. Been a fan since you were making top 10 videos for zombies! The rare Pokémon video was always awesome, but having a channel dedicated to Pokémon content with your signature high quality is just awesome. I've been loving this series and this channel Pat, and I just wanted to show my appreciation.

[@Krazymaddog]

What about dynamically changing the number of mons on the random trainer's teams based on badge count? This can add a lot of replayability by having cool mons be used by the trainers on each routes if you have 6/7 badges

[@mizusenshi8172]

I can see why people do Jasmine right after Chuck. Before you can fight Jasmine, you have to go to Cianwood to get the medicine for her Ampharos. So people probably go do that, fight Chuck while they're there, and then immediately return to Olivine to deliver the medicine. And since I think after that the only thing left to do in Olivine is defeat Jasmine, they go ahead and do that.

[@Nizzy37]

Cannot WAIT to play this romhack. Looks absolutely incredible my dude

[@mazeppa1231]

I love the changes you've done for these gym leaders. Very awesome, man.

[@OurKindofEntertainment]

I remember hitting around 80k subscribers and the path to 100k took what felt like forever! Keep putting out this quality content and you'll be there in no time! *IMO I liked the original design of the Silver Play Button better than the new one...

[@xdruidmaster]

The passion for this game comes across so much! I cannot wait for the release! ❤❤

[@Jack-496]

I really appreciate your content, Smith. You’re the definition of quality over quantity, and I’m excited to play this hack no matter how long it takes.

[@sahuanitasahu7696]

With quantity

[@leargamma4912]

Yeah but he's not too smart

[@boss1fox]

Where does he release his hacks?

[@LunarWingCloud]

I hope you aggressively adjust the wild encounters of the late game stuff. It's so bizarre that Ice Path and the routes south of Blackthorn can't even reach Lv.30 when they should easily get close to Lv.35 or so

[@nc5958]

I think the only thing Route 45 needs is slightly higher trainer levels.

[@DrewShiGold]

Can't wait to hear what you're going to do with the Kanto Gym levels! This is looking to be hella fun! :D

[@addambarcelos]

Ok, that sounds pretty cool. Being able to change the order while adapting the levels of the challenge feel better in line with the game

[@SuperKamehameha2]

I’ve really been loving these videos so far. Can’t wait to see how you cover the post game

[@ajmk2845]

Man ive been loving this idea! I do wish you’d reconsider adding in a lot of the post gen 2 evolutions!

[@needszeebs6942]

This is so amazing.. i think it would be rly cool to see the gen 4 physical special split in crystal 😂 also are you planning on covering the kanto post game? I dont want to request more work bc youre already doing so much here, but i love pokemon crystal and the idea of the major issues with it being fixed is so exciting! Looking forward to it being finished :))

[@robm.14]

I feel like potentially, if it's possible, you could make it so Jasmine doesn't return to her gym immediately as she wants to help Ampharos recover fully. This making sense story wise and simultaneously forcing the player to go east and fight Pryce/Rockets first. (Jasmine not becoming available until after beating both Pryce/Rockets)

[@Shalakor]

I think that was his original take, but it seems he decided it was better to preserve the original open-ended travel instead of setting an order. I definitely do feel personally like doing Pryce last is objectively bad for game flow, though. Fighting those Rockets immediately before the final Rocket arc is terrible pacing. I'm flabbergasted more people don't do Lake of Rage first after Morty. The Red Gyarados event has always felt like iconic midgame content to me. Doing it late feels wrong.

[@solidzack]

Blocking Jasmine until you get your 5th badge seems fair to me. You've had the chance to visit one or even both of the other gym leaders before delivering the medicine to her, so naturally you've battled many trainers on your way already. Giving her a team as the 5th gym leader seems weird as your team should be strong enough to handle her as the 6th gym leader. Also that's not a route one would naturally take unless they specifically want to skip and delay Chuck and/or Pryce.

[@Shalakor]

@@solidzack It is mentioned in the video that, although you won't be stopped from fighting her as the 5th Gym, you'll still be fighting her 6th Gym difficulty team. No practical reason to do so other than wanting to intentionally pump up the levels of the other 2 Gyms.

[@ajj403]

You could make the Secret Potion obtainable in that sketchy Mart in Mahogany town as a reward for defeating the Rockets there instead Or you could make it that the lighthouse is only open at night and Jasmine’s gym is only accessible in the day so that when you bring her the Secret Potion you would need to wait until the next day to actually battle her, thus incentivizing you to go East. This would keep the gym order still interchangeable technically.

[@solidzack]

@@ajj403 @ajj403 I like where the last idea is going. Course it would suck if Jasmine is your only remaining gym leader and you're playing at day but can't deliver the potion. I think it would be better to make her stay at the lighthouse for one full day after the potion was delivered (unless you already have the other two gym badges), similar to how Kurt takes one day to create a ball. It would make sense lorewise to stay at Ampharos' side. One could increase the date by one day if they're impatient or simply wait if they insist on fighting her early on, but most people would take the time to clear the other gyms.

[@gabrieldeleon3187]

Something also weird in this generation is the level of the gyms in Kanto. After you beat the Pokémon league, they don’t give you harder challenge.

[@Accrovideogames]

Although it requires more work, I would prefer the same treatment to both Gym Leaders and trainers. My idea is to make both routes start at low levels, but after getting your fifth badge, the trainers you didn't battle in the other route have their levels increased. See below for an example, as well as an explanation on how to handle trainer rematches and wild encounters. 1. You go back and forth between Chuck's route and Pryce's route. 2. Wild Pokémon and the trainers on both routes are at their lowest levels. 3. You decide to beat Chuck first. 4. The trainers you didn't battle on Chuck's route are now locked into their lowest levels. 5. Wild Pokémon and the trainers you didn't battle on Pryce's route now have increased levels. 6. Beating Jasmine before or after Pryce doesn't affect trainer levels. 7. Now that you have your sixth badge, wild Pokémon on Chuck's route have increased levels. 8. Trainer rematches are always set at their normal levels, regardless of how many badges you have.

[@lloyd011721]

in my head, the mohagony rocket event is supposed to happen right after morty, to avoid continuity issues with some of those rockets in the radio tower recognising you and being quite a bit stronger in a very short time... the only issue is chuck and jasmine will have no trainers inbetween, which ends up being an issue no matter what i guess

[@danielle_vandress]

I love how you are keeping Jasmine as the strongest of the 3 leaders during the split. That definitely feels right to me.

[@Zebra_Cakes]

I’m glad someone’s talking about this because I remember when I was a kid and played Gen 2 for the first time. The base layout of the game made it extremely difficult to fight Jasmine and Clair because every trainer was so weak it gave no experience to level up my Pokémon. Then the gen 2 Pokémon league was even more difficult because all of my Pokémon were maybe in low-mid 30s levels while all the other Pokémon were around level 50

[@dienercontent6872]

The team/move changes based on the order you battle them is genius and will add a ton to the replay ability. Really awesome stuff!

[@cgoldiz]

Been following through with series and I’m really enjoying it and looking forward to the outcome! Keep up the work! Also, wanted to ask, any plans to add the elemental bites? I know they weren’t in the original game but I feel like they would have a nice place and trading slight power/accuracy for the flinch chance would be nice!

[@onyxgrnr666]

Its crazy that not even gamefreak can make the gym leaders scale dynamically in modern games.

[@sebastianaliandkulche]

They always played very safe with their games.

[@damonlopez2197]

Im subbed to you but havent watched a vid in a week or two. But its funny just reading your titles the past 2 weeks, youre obsessed with Gen 2 at the moment lol. Its persistent enough that im finally gonna catch up on all these vids EDIT: holy shit its actually the past 2 months what the hell

[@foosbooze263]

Gotta fix Kanto to truly fix gen 2. Never will understand how the level scaling is somehow worse than Johto. Also make Houndoor, Sneasel Murkrow and Larvitar available in Johto. Bam perfect game.

[@mistahl5350]

And Misdreavus not Mt Silver only. Maybe in the Burned Tower, so Morty can use one or two.

[@xX1Mankrik3Xx]

Love this idea for a romhack! As a game designer, I did want to point something out that might not be super obvious. When you're talking about the difficulty curve, you advocate for a consistent and moderate amount of challenge. But trust me when I say that great game experiences usually have a lot of highs and lows to mix things up. The best comparison I have is to look at how incredible books or movies tell a story. You need to have multiple instances of rising action, a climax, falling action, and baseline setting reset. A great example of this in a recent pokemon game is Legends: Arceus. There are tons of super high level pokemon that you can get totally wrecked by in just about every area of the game. And it feels so satisfying to come back and defeat/catch those guys after you get stronger. You would've never experienced that feeling if they were comfortably in reach the first time you encountered them.

[@nousername191]

I have an idea to encourage freedom of choice for replayability. The game opens up after the 4th badge and allows you to pick a path, but no matter which path you pick, backtracking would be involved. The orininal canon route of Chuck, Jasmine, Pryce has the advantage of no backtracking without Fly: you make your way to Cianwood once and you can fly back to Olivine with the medicine and take on Jasmine, then fly back to Ecruteak to continue onto Mahogony. So I suggest this: remove the Flash requirement of the first badge (at this stage, the darkness isn't much of a barrier to anyone playing as most people either memorized the dark caves or can look up the path online), let the first badge grant you the right to use Fly outside of battle (or do any rearrangement so that you can use Fly by the time you have the first 4 badges) and give the Fly HM right after Ecruteak. That way, no matter which way the player wants to go, they can backtrack easily. I'd certainly be more willing to try alternative routes like take on Pryce first if I can just fly back when I'm done.

[@Cyraxis7]

Dropped a sub, this rom hack is sounding really good, can't wait til it's finished

[@pandadeadpool2163]

This will easily be the best Pokémon rom hack just as long as you fix the wild Pokémon levels in Kanto!

[@dlake1224]

Raising the levels of trainers will increase exp available so you might have to increase gym leader levels even more (this is a good thing). Make sure you play test before release please

[@bvd_vlvd]

I really like these changes! Does anyone know if we'll get Drayano style patches where we only get these sensible changes in one and complete revamp in another or will it be just all or nothing? I don't play hacks with complete base stat overhauls

[@master12344]

Every time you drop a new video I get more and more excited to play this ROM hack 😍

[@Hdtk2024]

That seems to be a good solution to the level curve problem.

[@signum18]

You're faced with a difficult challenge no doubt. What always bothered me in the OG and remake games is how Pryce just sits awkwardly at the end with no real story purpose. And while I understand the choice to make Jasmin the 7th gymleader, the way you want to go about it opens a whole new can of problems. Adding dialogue just doesn't solve it much like HG/SS simply blocked Pryce's gym until you beat Jasmin. When clearing Ecruteak the map opens to you in 2 directions. I like how you're working to open path A and B based on the players preference. To stimulate this I think what's needed are 2 quests that need to be completed before being able to challenge Jasmin. The real problem is that Olivine is sits en route to Cianwood, but you have no incentive to backtrack from Mahogany. What you can consider is that both route A and B have dialogue that lead you to the lighthouse with sick Amphy. To get the medicine you could add a multi step quest where you need to visit both Cianwood and Mahogany pharmacy. Potentionally collecting ingredients needed to craft the special medicine. Dialogue is not enough to get a player in a certain direction. You need to add an incentive and obstruction to get them to move to the intended path. Good luck!

[@zackperry7163]

This is becoming really really good and I'm excited to play it. I just hope that when I nozlocke it I have mostly gen 2 pokes to experience all the changes!

[@Shalakor]

That certainly seems like the design goal.

[@mooman1199]

I love this series so much, I cannot wait to see more videos about this rom hack and I will be extremely happy when the game comes out

[@doritosareawesome4765]

13:16 Love these ideas, but just thought I'd point out in the older pokémon games, people's names tend to be in all caps. Also, you'll probably catch this yourself, but there's a typo in the sailor's dialogue

[@Phantasmen]

Jasmine could mention in her dialogue that the Ampharos's sibling is thankful, but that it wont hold back.

[@TheDubbedCasual]

I really loved this video! I personally prefer how hoenn and unova stick to a linear path while providing lots of hidden away areas to explore. In the 40 or so times I've played Johto I've never done the gyms in any different order because it just feels like a gimmick to me. But the way I always wanted to fix it was by making Pryce come after Morty and the goldenrod Rocket event come after Jasmine. So instead of Rocket 1 right before Bugsy and Rocket 2-3 before and after Pryce. It would be more spaced out so 1-before gym two, 2-before gym five, 3-after gym seven! Then you can change the levels to make that playthrough feel better. Without an idea like yours with level scaling I really hate forcing an open map *cough cough S/V*

[@excessivedetailgaming]

I love this whole concept. This is what Gen 2 should have done from day one. Great ideas.

[@ralphaustinfernandez9851]

I feel like the only time someone ever fights Jasmine as the fifth gym leader is when they forgot to fight Chuck back in Cyanwood while getting the medicine.

[@onadaTotihotiH]

I really love what you're doing with this and while I agree that having that choice for the routes is good, I think it would just be better to go with what the game seems to set up as the "normal" route (CJP) and just work on being able to finetune the changes based on that.

[@JordTheeNord]

Can't wait for this rom hack! It sounds so good you are doing great!

[@lookatmyzombies9377]

Yo dude been watching since 2015/16ish im loving these videos

[@Mayolaise]

I really enjoy a lot of these ideas, but i feel that the way you guide the player into fighting Jasmine after Pryce and Chuck is a bit inelegant (for lack of a better word). I feel its somewhat immersion breaking to hear about how tough Jasmine is from numerous sources in-game, including herself. That could do the opposite of the desired effect and make the players more eager to fight Jasmine first (because reverse psychology). What i propose instead, is to go a different direction, and make the players feel like they would be missing out on a better fight if they were to fight Jasmine as soon as possible. Dont remember the story of Crystal too well, but i think it would make more sense if Jasmine were out of sorts due to ampharos' illness for a while longer, saying something akin to "I'm sorry, but although you can now challenge the gym, i feel that me and my pokemon are not fully prepared to give you our all, so can you please give us more time to prepare?" While my solution isnt exactly perfect, i feel that it goes into the right direction and guides the players more naturally and (i think) effectively to the canon path, while still making it feel like the players have the freedom to challenge whomever they want at this point.

[@mistahl5350]

I like this, but also the idea that you need two things to cure Amphy, and you can only get these two things from both Cianwood and Mahogany towns. You have to prove you're worthy of the item from each location with either a hard quiz/puzzle, or simply having the badge from the area. Still lets you do Jasmine 5th, but you're still getting some extra training in going through both routes.

[@Sean-ch6wu]

Fantina being encountered before being challengeable in DP was likely just to fill that role that existed in every game so far. Prior to Platinum, they always had one Gym that you couldn’t challenge when you first got to the city and had to back track to. In RB it was Giovanni, in GS it was Jasmine and in RS it was Norman.

[@majungasaurusaaaa]

Nothing wrong with getting your ass whopped and having to explore for more options.

[@royalapples9707]

This makes so much sense, I knew when I was little that it got so much harder but I didn't realize why and now it finally makes sense LOL.

[@yutuberocks22]

13:20 The sailor has a typo. He says "she's *somethibng* to be feared". He also starts a non-proper noun word with a capital in the middle of a sentence ("*That's* for sure!") which is an error.

[@shadowmarauder6033]

There’s also another problem: if you go to Chuck & Jasmine first, a plothole is created with the Team Rocket arc. When you go through the new rocket hideout, Petrel is there pretending to be Giovanni. However, you then go beat Pryce in what would be less than an hour later(in the game’s lore) and Elm calls you to notify you about the evil team taking over the radio tower, with Petrel pretending to be the director. However, this creates a problem as for even pokémon standards this happens way too quickly. How does an evil team take over a city & their radio station plus have their director kidnapped & substituted in secret in the same day they got kicked out of their home & beaten in battle?

[@1stCallipostle]

Thing is, that's clearly the "intended" flow. I had not seen or heard of Pryce not being 7th a single time in my life before this guy started talking about it

[@PopeDuwang]

It’s not that far off to say that when they knew the Radio Signal Project at the Rocket Hideout was labeled a success, they gave the go ahead to attack the Radio Tower (this would occur between you defeating the Power source in the Hideout and defeating Pryce). By the time you got your badge, the Radio Tower was taken over due to no resistance. Alternately, if there’s a way to delay the call from Prof. Elm to when you arrive at Blackthron City (or when you talk to the guy in front of the Gym that claims Clair is undergoing Training) this could help extend the time. TR taking over the Radio Tower in a short time never bothered me because they are a big group and there’s no security at the Tower so it wouldn’t take long for it to happen but I do understand if it feels too quick.

[@shadowmarauder6033]

@@PopeDuwang i would be fine with the quick takeover as well if it wasn’t for the story. In the johto story, team rocket is in shambles & not nearly as organized or powerful. In the kanto games they had a a stable leadership, multiple bases & well though-out plans. In johto, they’re treated as more underground, desperate & disorganized, which they even admit to multiple times. So it confuses me how the johto version of the team took control of a city in a day while in kanto it seemingly took months or years of corporate espionage to just take over a building.

[@PopeDuwang]

@@shadowmarauder6033 The only answer I can give in regards to that is in Kanto, people know about Team Rocket enough to where they have to think their steps through to do big jobs like they did in Kanto while in Johto they were seen as Broken Up so no one was Prepared for their Return in the way it occurred. The Radio Takeover was also something that was in plan for a while as we saw a Grunt there since we arrived at Goldenrod City (not to mention that the Director of Radio Tower was likely already replaced when we arrived at Goldenrod City since people were saying that recently the Director has been different) so it was only a matter of the Admins giving the order to takeover.

[@ottokarl5427]

As someone else mentioned: Team Rocket worked on the Radio Tower takeover for some time, they replaced the Director before we even enter Goldenrod. So while we clean up the hideout with Lance and beat Pryce, they travel to Goldenrod and finish the takeover It might be a plothole, but it also is definetly the canonical order, since in Stadium 2 Team Rocket also comes between Pryce and Claire

[@jackjumper4231]

There’s one thing I’ve always wanted to see happen in Pokémon games. I hate read some of my favorite Pokémon or at the end of the game, but I would love to see is after you get a gym badge it randomly shuffles in Pokémon you can catch on the routes before and after that gym.

[@yokaipinata1416]

Will you also be increasing the levels of the wild encounters? This is especially important for Ice Path, which can only be accessed after you've done everything else, yet the Pokémon there are level 22-24, which you've long left in the dust, making it just plain bad design rather than a consequence of the lack of scaling. imo those should be in the early 30s or at worst in the very late 20s.

[@animejerk05]

thats because ice path gives ice pokemon which would be an easy answer to gym 8 if they were given at too high a lv

[@yokaipinata1416]

@@animejerk05 I mean, Clair does have Kingdra who is neutral to Ice and generally very strong. And in the rework SmithPlays is making, she'll have more answers against Ice such as Flamethrower on her Dragonair, more Pokémon that are neutral or resistant to Ice, some of which may also carry anti-Ice attacks, and likely Aerodactyl who _is_ Ice-weak, but also outspeeds anything relevant and brings STAB Rock Slide (which in this rework, they'll actually be able to learn, so it's NOT a "Cheating like Lance" moment). The details are still up in the air but you can watch SmithPlays's Gym Leaders video and read the feedback in the comments for more context. Also, even ignoring all of the above, underleveling the wild Pokémon is still a bad call because if you fell behind for any reason and need to level grind to catch up, it's going to be much more tedious than it should.

[@dialga5]

I feel like you could improve upon this using flags denoting the gym leader defeated, and if a flag is set, the other two gym leaders as well as their routes levels increase. That way it adds replay ability as well as diversifying the gameplay style for all players. Really like the ideas for the third party dlc you got.

[@Shalakor]

The probable with that, is that you could have already fought said trainers before setting the flag, and then, the most likely way it's being handled, would then replace those beaten trainers with their higher level versions, allowing you to exploit that for additional grinding and being forced to fight them again even if you don't want to. I could be wrong about that, but, even then, there's the phone number trainers to worry about, too. Probably wouldn't have been realistically possible in the original games. (Obviously, possible with hacking, but there's already hacks like Crystal Clear for total scaling for the game, even if they're less concerned with maintaining original game feel than this one.)

[@KyagaGolden]

This is a great project, i will support it.

[@Linkswolfform]

I am so excited for this rom hack. I've always loved Gen 2 for the nostalgia of it being my first games. But, playing it as an adult I am always so frustrated when I get to Clair and feel like I have to grind for hours just to have a chance with whatever team I have. So looking forward to the levels being fixed and I hope Kanto gets fixed too so that there isn't a 20+ level grind to get to Red!

[@gogglesesm9122]

Theres only one way to fix Johto it requires gasoline and a lighter.

[@machadragonii145]

Finally I've been waiting for to finally explain how your going to fix jhoto's most biggest problem

[@chefc8371]

Omg my body is ready for this! When is the ETA on the project

[@mastod0n1]

It's been a decade since I played these games but I remember being so frustrated with the Jasmine gym fight. I also never knew, in maybe a half dozen playthroughs, that you could go to Pryce before Chuck and Jasmine. I do remember the path to Mahogany being super easy though but never thought much about it.

[@kryzethx]

Oooh, dynamic level curve for that midgame is everything I wanted to see from a romhack like this. Reminds of Crystal Clear's dynamic level scaling; though that applies to the entire game, Kanto and Johto included. This seems a bit more faithful to the original; really excited to try this when it releases! :D

[@conza1989]

Been re-watching several of these videos, I'm really pumped to try the rom hack, speaking of which, I realise you have content tied to the development but I'm curious if you have a rough idea when you want the rom hack to come out, is it still in development and/or testing?

[@markdictado5938]

IF possible, I don't know how good your modding skills are, but maybe program a bunch of ice trainers in the ice cave to make up for the lack of experience gain towards the 8th gym.

[@Mattias_the_unimpressive]

Don't forget the trainer sisters at route 34 and those in union cave/ruins of alph who become available with surf.

[@FrankHghTwr]

I always thought the fall in levels was to encourage you to change your team at that point: it made it easier to bring in a new member (e.g. one you bred) up to the levels of the rest of your team

[@Veecy]

Funny enough, the first time I played Generation 2, I did the order of Jasmine -> Chuck -> Pryce, which I'm gathering from this video is very uncommon

[@sillentgamer64]

>Pryce, the ice type leader >Uses rain dance strats instead of hail

[@paulroche6969]

Interesting stuff. You think you'll ever tackle the Gen 4 remakes?

[@oof5992]

Good choices, the main thing Is that you can access all of eastern Jotho until Lake of rage before Morty, only thing you can't start is rocket hideout and pryce. Honestly if It was me I would open up the path post gym 4 until Half of the Ice path so you can get 7 new mons before gym 8 and store the higher leveled trainers there, for people who want to do Pryce later. Especially if you add a strength boulder.

[@HenryMidfields]

The other thing which may or may not have been mentioned elsewhere (this is the very first SmithPlays video I've seen) are the Kanto trainers. In most Pokemon games (though not sure with SV), Level 65 is considered as the end-of-the-main-story level anyway (and BW's end-of-story having Ghetsis's Hydreigon at 54-55?). Furthermore, even within the postgame, there are few to no trainers having any Pokemon in those levels, with the only notable exception I know being the trainers in BW2's Black Skyscraper or White Treehollow. The missed opportunity with Kanto is, despite Red's team being in the 80s levels, none of the Kanto gymleaders, and none of the post-16-badge rematches in HGSS have trainer's Pokemon in the 60s and 70s levels. This could have been a better transition from Lance (say, raised to 50 or even 55) -> Kanto leaders (60-75) -> rematches (75-80) -> to Red (80s)

[@PauloArais]

The remakes tried to fix this adding the Routes 47 and 48 at Cianwood with some tough battles if you do that way immediately after is available when the lighthouse Pokemon is healed.

[@muhammadsyafiq8882]

Its insane how you can add level scaling to g/s but gamefreak couldnt do it with scarlet/violet

[@VR00100]

I hate how much back and forth you need to do to get fly, it is simply painful

[@dannigro8794]

I think the level issue is due to the fact that at this point around gym 5 they figure you should have a solid team that the levels can be high, but if you have the right, Pokémon to defeat that it’s never a problem and it never was for me.

[@xRussianbishop]

Liquid Crystal scaling did it the best. if you never heard of it in short its a open world Pokémon game where you can start in any city and everything scales wild Pokémon to random trainers and gym leaders with the option to re do gyms you can grind at your city's gym then go out and about. the creator even made it that the rom can play in a Pokémon stadium 2 rom with a emulator that allows GBC files

[@hunter00143]

Super excited for rhis, planning on nuzlocking it. Any estimations on when it's gonna release?

[@BlueLoneWolf54]

The Yakuza 0 music always a dope choice for crossing over with pokemon haha.