Intercoolers - Top-Mount Vs. Front-Mount - Which is best?

[@all4bspinnin311]

One thing that people forget is with most fmic's youre forced to remove your crash bar. If you rear end someone, the intercooler takes the impact which is dangerous. Also, ive seen insurance companies deny claims since the crash bar was removed.

[@FlatironsTuning]

That is a good point, and worth mentioning. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@xlkazzlx4232]

Yes you are right on that point. But newer fmic kit they are coming with a crash bar include. But they are more expensive lol 😂

[@OggaDugga]

@@xlkazzlx4232 even on the older models, some shaving needs to be done but nothing world ending.

[@QQMoaritsreal]

Another thing that is worth mentioning, is with a top mount you *can* run greater fin density, because it isn't sitting as close to the ground and exposed to getting the daylights beat out of it by road debris and rocks. I am not a fan of the bar and plate PW design, as it compromises density by going bar and plate. Bar and plate is needed however when you expose a core to rocks and road debris in the bottom of the bumper for rigidity. A bar and plate setup is going to cool less efficiently per surface area than a close fin density intercooler. You can see in the PW Design they increase the volume of the intercooler to 'compensate' for the bar and plate. Ideally any cooler; you want as large surface area as possible, for it to be as thin as possible; with the most fin density. This gives you the least pressure drop and most cooling. Packaging and location becomes the issue however; so that's when compromises kick in. To effectively run a short loop air to air front mount, for track purposes; without compromising the radiator; look into V mounting + rotated manifold + turbo relocation, high mounting the front mount allows greater fin density and tilting / dropping the radiator prevents the fmic from heating the radiator, requires custom ducting. As with anything; there are compromises. This is so that all the coolers can get the appropriate amount of air, and you can keep the intake ducting as short as possible. Now this is full fab, and I am talking relocated turbos at this point, which is not the objective of the video. It seems like the main goal is to assist with the decision on rather to run a OTS FMIC or upgraded OTS TMIC on a factory(ish) location turbo subaru with a stock rotation intake manifold/tb. Great work as always @flatironstuning Thanks for spreading the knowledge; really good info in the rest of the video!

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for the comment. I definitely think that there hasn't been enough development of intercooler technology in the last 5 - 10 years compared to other parts. There is definitely some advantage to be gained by some tweaking and re-designing compared to the majority of the kits on the market. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@angelfeliciano7382]

Hands down the most simplified and educational explanation. Thank you so much !!!!!!!! 🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks very much for watching and glad that it was helpful! Stay Tuned!

[@warusweims]

One of the big reasons my 2002 WRX has a front mount, was so I could switch my air intake temp. sensor from pre-turbo to post turbo for my hybrid engine without a blow through tube. I paired it with an IHI VF48 that been been ported, polished and ceramic coated.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for the comment, thanks for watching, and Stay Tuned!

[@matd8958]

The information i get from you guys is priceless , my goal is 450hp in 2017 sti, i just getting started,

[@FlatironsTuning]

Very glad that you found our channel and site and that the information has been helpful! If you ever have any questions, be sure to open up a Live Chat with us on our site, www.flatironstuning.com . Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@stephen_21STI]

For the FMIC blocking the radiator, I figured out a solution. APR sells a break cooling kit for the VA WRX/STI ( I believe they also have them for older WRXs) I fabed up some brackets and spilt the hose to go to the brake rotors and to go in between the fmic and radiator. So the radiator is getting good enough air flow.

[@pw85___]

FMIC for life.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@jonathanh4446]

This guy gets it. This response makes the most sense; front mount is the way to go. In response to the turbo lagging behind in pressurizing the system...the fmic isnt the issue, rather the turbo is too small. Even with a vf52 or vf48, I'd still go fmic to be honest.

[@pw85___]

@@jonathanh4446 💪🏾

[@pw85___]

@@jonathanh4446 plus the cooling benefits outweigh the extremely minimal drawbacks.

[@HondaWagovan]

I have a Process Verticooler paired with a blouch 1.5XTR(3in inlet, 10cm hot side), seems to be a good pairing for my car, tuner stopped at 380whp/350wt(still on the stock 5-speed). My car lives in socal, doesn't ever feel like it gets heat soaked, and even if it does get heat soaked, it's because that famous California traffic slowing everything down and you won't be going anywhere in a decent amount of time or at speed.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for the comment. We definitely like the verticoolers. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@JohnD0129]

I have a similar setup. Blouch 1.5XTR (8cm hot side) paired with a GrimmSpeed. Stock 5speed. Stock block with rebuilt internals. Dyno tuned on E85. Pushing around 400whp. I built a Intercooler water sprayer that helps a lot to keep the TMIC cooler.

[@paulb2948]

Now the true critical point is the difference and benefits between tube and fin vs bar and plate. Mostly how tube and fin is the better choice if you're not drag racing

[@cwojcik_rc]

I would love to hear this. I’m trying to keep my car consistent and reliable on the track and it seems hard to find a good tune and fin TMIC.

[@FlatironsTuning]

That is true. Tube and Fin is a much more efficient design, but it is also a lot more expensive. Bar and plate is a lot less expensive to produce, and that design is a bit more tolerant of high boost pressure. The expense of producing the core makes the Tube and Fin Intercoolers really hard to find. Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching. Stay Tuned!

[@dsxmotorsports]

Plazmaman makes an excellent (but pricey) tube and fin intercooler capable of holding some mega boost. They also weigh SUBSTANTIALLY less, which is really nice when you have all that weight hanging off the front end

[@cwojcik_rc]

@@dsxmotorsports I think HKS makes one too. Can't find a good tube and fin TMIC though.

[@FlatironsTuning]

@@dsxmotorsports Forgot about Plazmaman. Thanks @DSX Motorsports!

[@i.norman]

Great video. Upgraded the 2002 WRX with G.Speed intercooler with Cobb AOS. No oily residue in the TMIC, yet (it’s been 3 months now) !! Maybe for the next question topic, address the crank pulley. Replaced old stock original harmonic balancer on 2002 wagon with Fluidamper. What a change ! Smoother and calmer. I think my Sybil loves me now. Cheers

[@FlatironsTuning]

Good suggestion on the topic. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@doubletee4391]

great video. It would have been extra helpful if you had your friend The Boost Creep on to explain a tuner's perspective and how the dyno numbers on a top mount may or may not been accurately representive of the potential one would see on the street.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for the comment. That is a good suggestion, and maybe we can follow up with him at some point. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@iamchrisdammit]

I’ve like every video I seen. I love the information here!

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks very much! Be sure to spread the word. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@Wyatt274]

Another reason why I am going with a top mount upgrade instead of front mount is just the absolute amount of debris that will impact the core. I live in Wisconsin and there’s snow almost half the year, with rocksalt, sand, and just pieces of the road from plowing. In the summer, there’s always road construction and chip seal taking place.

[@FlatironsTuning]

That is always something to consider for sure. The FMIC cores are pretty darn tough, but in those types of conditions over time, you could end up with a damaged core. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@moneyseeker8886]

Which part of WI

[@nicolashuffman4312]

I would be interested to see a relatively small FMIC for the VA WRXs. The turbo location means intake length wouldn't be all that much longer. Using a core and piping designed for maybe 350hp would minimize pressurized volume. Plus, the smaller core wouldn't block airflow to the radiator and might mean you can keep the OEM crash bar. Perhaps the reason we have this rule of thumb that you only go FCIM over 400hp is that that's what made sense on the EJ motors, and all the vendors kept that thought for later generations.

[@martytearesales7567]

Great vid guys, you answered some great questions.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks very much, and glad that the video was helpful. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@ranran2218]

Honestly if your going big hp then fmic. If your keeping it tame then tmic but the verticooler isn't that great. Garrett tmic is best bang for your buck. If your going to buy grimmspeed or cobb for close to the price of a tmic you might as well go fmic for better cooling capabilities.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching. Stay Tuned!

[@jpMcnab]

I had a fmic on a bugeye 2.0. Stg 2 tune. Killed spool up. Would like a fmic on my OBX XT but it already has issues in warm temps.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for the comment. I'd say look into something like the Verticooler for your OXT. Might be a good upgrade, but it doesn't have all of the extra volume to pressurize. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@bbehzadi413]

Love the video personally going Perrin TMIC on my 2020 STI because I want to have the best throttle response and not looking for peak numbers. However I think Subarus rally use v mount intercoolers so the radiator doesn’t get air robbed would love to hear your opinions on those!

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for your question. "V" mount intercoolers and radiators are actually really tricky to get right. The issue is getting good air flow through both coolers. It requires a lot of ducting to get them to work properly. And packaging can be more challenging with the V Mount set-up than just about any other option. Honestly, I'd say that most of the time those are best left to professional race teams with wind tunnels, etc. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@DJ_Driven]

Would be curious to see a company design a tmic with a redesigned hood scoop that seals the IC for maximum cooling efficiency, and also a plate or some design work with a heat shielding to prevent heat soak.

[@marvinvisser5039]

Process west ;)

[@DJ_Driven]

@@marvinvisser5039 The process west setup is too basic of a design I'm talking something a lot more high-end. Would require a hood scoop upgrade - ram air setups to completely redesign the stock setup. Also need a plate or a kit to prevent heat soaking or some fans with ductwork to extract the heat out of the engine compartment. There's companies that do this in the Porsche 911 air-cooled market.... don't think anyone's tried it yet for STI.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for your comment. I'd say that Process West and Grimmspeed are the closest to this that we have currently. From your other comment, I know that you are thinking of something beyond what they have on offer currently. It is an interesting idea, but I would say that for a lot of driving, a well ducted TMIC does a really good job. I'll have to see if I can find one of the 911 set-ups you mention and see what they have going on. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@Brokenmeow]

Excellent video, really enjoy ya'lls content. I am wondering if they sell a Vert-Intercooler for my 2006 Subaru STI. I can't seem to find one.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for your question. There isn't a Verticooler for the STI because its intercooler is quite good stock. It would also be a bit more challenging to fit it under the GD engine bay. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@allenignacio9790]

if I'm going to Race Team As a Subaru mechanic just a little upgrade to top mount A bigger scoop with housing sealed/cowling going to I/C similar to 2001 Forester gt and other models slanted or vertical I/C, put some good insulation to the top of the engine and turbo, plus better air flow ventilation going under chassis there's more in my brain how about re route the evaporator put into I/C that's a real cooler air than ever period 🤔😎 cheer's

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for the comment, thanks for watching, and Stay Tuned!

[@juliusgurule]

I’ve got a Fa with the Cobb tmic and I’m making 345whp. The Cobb tmic is the way to go if you’re staying with the top mount.

[@davidl6354]

How has it been

[@ArcadiaVidz]

Do a video on harmonic balancers and why people shouldn't run a lightweight one please.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for the suggestion and thanks for watching. Stay Tuned!

[@oliverscorsim]

Why no mention of air to water coolers? They do give the best of both worlds. Not very hard to set up and it's not very expensive plus even the cheap parts work pretty good because water can hold so much heat. The only place the cheap kids lack is pump volume but that's easy to retro fit a better pump like an OEM f150 lightning pump or something similar.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for your question. We actually just put together an episode on Air to Water specifically. Here is a link to that: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYOXgpmGn5ymars&feature=shares Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@jasonrex3436]

Thanks

[@FlatironsTuning]

No problem! Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@chucka187]

Simple answer, stock turbo top mount, upgraded turbo front mount. No that doesn’t mean slap on a baby turbski and run a front mount.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@donmerrigan2362]

When you say 400 HP I'm assuming you mean 400 wheel hp not crank hp. I've personally made 420/405 on pump gas with a rotated g30-660 and a mishimoto tmic @ 23-24 psi and then 475/467 on e50 with a grimmspeed tmic @24-25 psi on a mustang dyno and know of folks that have done upwards of 530 whp with a grimmspeed tmic. On the dyno at least I couldn't hold power passed 7k due to the tmic no longer keeping intake temps where they needed to be. Could you do a video about air to water set ups? I really want to do an awic in the factory tmic location to try and get the best of both response and power capacity.

[@evanchi9460]

This still seems like the ideal setup to me. Been looking to try it as well, as I can fabricate it all myself. Eliminate the charge pipe volume, eliminate the bottleneck of total cooling capacity, and completely stabilize the charge temperatures as there's no issue of heat soaking the core. Only downside is system complexity, and packaging. (A tank in the trunk)

[@donmerrigan2362]

@@evanchi9460 your also limited on intake manifold choices. A stock sti will work as will a cosworth if you can afford it and if you're lucky enough to locate one. There's a guy on nasioc who did this kinda set up on his autocross car with good results.

[@evanchi9460]

@@donmerrigan2362 Limited in regards to what? The packaging on any OEM manifold would be tricky, but not impossible. I'll be using a 2.5i NA manifold I shaved up if I ever do it.

[@donmerrigan2362]

@@evanchi9460 limited on space. The na manifolds have much larger plenums which place the throttle body in almost the dead center of the factory tmic. There's just no room to put an intercooler in the factory location with a na/ams/process west manifold. Maybe if you reversed them but that would add a bunch of piping with some really tight bends. I'm currently doing a short runner na manifold and had to go fmic to do so as there's no way a tmic could fit anymore.

[@Cloudsurfer181]

I actually saw one in a forester at the last big Subaru meet in Houston. Talked with the owner and tuner, said it wasn’t worth the cost unless you’re tracking it regularly, as the fully custom design woulda been approaching around 3500-4k just for an intercooler. I have pics I believe if you’d like to see

[@PeterHernandez-lg2eh]

Top mount more heat soak in hot weather

[@williamrodas4084]

So if i have unequal headers on my wrx , its a good idea to install a front mount intercooler?

[@MR-oy4fc]

Top mount all the way.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for watching. Stay Tuned!

[@rockytopridr7463]

Anyone know if they make a process west verticooler for a Bugeye? Or, if the 08 would fit with some minor mods?

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for your question. The Verticooler is only for the 08+ WRX. And those intercoolers have a very different fitment compared to the GD. I'd recommend looking at their intercooler for the GD chassis. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@rockytopridr7463]

@@FlatironsTuning Thanks for the response! You guys are great!

[@wim0104]

what's the cross-over for going into nitro or ethanol cooling? Is there a controller that makes that part of the injection system/engine mapping? Asking for a friend :-)

[@FlatironsTuning]

Are you thinking of running something like water/methanol injection? Or just running ethanol as fuel for its cooling ability? We had a great conversation about this a little while ago, and you may want to take a look at that as a good starting point: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWaVdmOEgLyAmbc Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@mejia212]

I been thinking of getting the GS TMIC FOR MY 21 sti, with the thermal coating. Would you say it’s worth it ? I’ve heard the sti Intercooler is sufficient. My purpose of changing it would be to reduce heat soak when at low speeds or in traffic jams. Having to take it easy once traffic clears up due to heat soak.

[@AmirPomen]

Front mount better for street.. with slight off-boost throttle response... Top mount is ok as long as the car moving at decent air speed going into the hood scoop...not good for stop n go situation multiple time... But air to water would be the best of both world... Im going this direction soon... With dual stage awic core.. big water heat exchanger and decent water tank (atleast as big as wiper water tank)

[@DJ_Driven]

Do you happen to have a link for the air to water IC?

[@FlatironsTuning]

Air to water intercoolers are an interesting option. The difficulty with them generally comes down to the weight of the system with coolant, etc., the complexity (have to have a pumping system, etc. to circulate the coolant through the AWIC), and on track, the issue is that once the intercooler gets hot, it takes a lot longer for it to cool off. But for some applications, they can be a good solution. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@Ready_Fire_Aim]

i learnt something thanks. would an after market top mount intercooler perform superior to a 25 year old one, (3sgte) if you were factory 260hp, aftermarket tmic/cold air intake/airdam? (some ppl rise/lift their bonnet , though i heard its illegal as?) thanks for this video.

[@newguynasti2008]

I hear alot about over 400 hp you need front mount. In Florida I get heat soak bad in summer. Do you recommend a front mount or verticooler? Only trying for 350 hp for my daily. Not going for alot of power but looking for the best reliability upgrades.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for your question. For that power target, I would probably try to stay with a top mount. If anything, hooking up an intercooler sprayer will really help with any heat soak issues. Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!

[@quincy423]

If someone has a cvt Subaru and lives in one of the states that gets extremely hot, would it be better to stay top mount or go front mount, I know theres turbo lag to take into account but which direction would be wiser, living in those states.

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for your question. CVT's definitely don't like heat so you might actually want to factor in a better cooler for the transmission. They also don't do well with extra power, so I'd recommend staying with the top-mount intercooler. I think that if you pushed the car enough to need a front mount, the transmission would most likely not last too long. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@quincy423]

Ok and Thank you for the reply

[@Craiggg12345]

Top mount because I like OEM look lol

[@aplong1911]

👍🏼👍🏼

[@GIXXRBRAH750]

A verticooler isn’t available for the 2002 Wrx ej205 Subaru people are most hating on people with fmics who cares

[@tmorrissey5112]

When are you guys gonna let me just come to you to get tuned?

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for your question. Unfortunately we don't have any plans to offer any of those kind of services to customers. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!

[@spadamsuby]

Water to air

[@FlatironsTuning]

Thanks for the comment. It has its advantages certainly, but disadvantages as well. Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!