FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR REACTS to STUDENT Pilot MIDAIR COLLISION August 18th, 2022 Watsonville, CA airport

[@sparty837]

Finally someone criticizing the guy in the twin, he was clearly at fault. I have watched many videos that don't want to blame him, he was hot dogging it by flying final that fast.

[@chrisschack9716]

Doesn't help that the base turn call came after the 3 mile call, it's entirely possible the base turn was in advance of the call. Navigate does come before communicate, after all. That would put the student pilot seconds from the turn to final, just over a minute from the runway, with an aircraft going faster than he might think, about a minute from the runway. After all, who flies final at nearly double their landing speed?

[@HotTakeHQ]

Landing speed approx 95knots That’s what I’ve read and heard. Is that correct

[@YaroslavNechaev]

because it doesn't matter who's it fault, we are not the FAA. The point of even discussing accidents is to learn how to prevent them. And it could have been prevented by both pilots here.

[@YoungChunds]

@@HotTakeHQ yep, and the guy flying twin engine was averaging at 180 kts. No one still has any idea why he was flying this fast. Even if you landed he would have over shot into the street

[@MikeHalsall]

@@YaroslavNechaev but the heartbreaking and absurd thing to me here is that discussing how this could have been prevented isn't even necessary. The AIM literally says "you shouldn't do straight-in approaches when there's traffic in the pattern". And no one's expecting someone to be going Mach 1 on final. To me, it does matter who's at fault. When someone being reckless literally runs over a guy doing pattern work in a 152, it 100% matters. There are a bunch of YT vids and commentors dancing around saying, "well the 152 could've extended his downwind"... just friggin no. The pilot of the twin should be totally called out, no matter how nice a guy he was or how liked he was around the FBO. The guy in the pattern had the right of way, he did literally nothing wrong, and this guy just runs over him. If there were a tower at the field, I'm assuming ATC would've asked the twin why he was going 180kts on final and/or to slow his approach. This wasn't an accident so much as manslaughter - it could've been prevented by both pilots, but the actions of one were the sole contributors. It's like saying, "well, if that person hadn't left the house, they wouldn't have been killed by that drunk driver... both people could have prevented it."

[@wyatt92563]

This VERY scenario happened to me a couple of days after this accident. I was flying pattern work at F70. I’m a student pilot midfield on downwind and I hear a Duchess calling 5 miles out for a straight-in for 18, the active runway. When I’m abeam the numbers, the Duchess calls 3 miles out for a straight-in full -stop. The Watsonville accident is rushing through my head! As a student with barely 50 hours I call the duchess and say I’ll do a short final to get out of their way. They say thanks. So I bank left and go straight for the numbers. I pick up speed and I’m in a very unstable approach. So I give full power and call a go-around. The duchess calls that they decided to pass over midfield and enter the pattern on the left downwind. Whew! In hindsight, the safer decision on my part would have been to extend my downwind, watch for the duchess to pass on my left, then turn base. But I’m new and refining my aeronautical decision making. Any feedback would be much appreciated.

[@mhilderbrand7693]

If you extended your downwind, what is the worst that could have happened? You get to fly more, and maybe practice some slow flight.

[@haphartmann3394]

The important take away is you saw your mistake and probably will never make that mistake again.

[@breddi1]

In the accident the twin Cessna was clearly at fault for a few reasons. At the same time always extend your downwind if ever in doubt. There’s almost never a downside to that.

[@banjo2019]

I always imagine what ATC would have me do if the field was towered. There’s no way Tower would have you do a short final in a situation like that. It will always be, “Extend downwind, you’re #2 behind Duchess. Advise visual.” You would then be prohibited from turning base until the Duchess is safely past you. What’s wrong with that, right?

[@Shojohn11]

Almost like The Duchess was trying to screw you up not once but twice

[@CarloEspinosa-b3p]

As a airline pilot and current flight instructor out of Reid Hillview in San Jose, it really hits close to home to for me especially since I trained in Watsonville, I’ve trained students into Watsonville and I still fly into Watsonville myself on my days off. Aviation is an industry built upon the bodies that laid before them, that’s what a college professor taught me when I went to school for Aviation. It just breaks my heart to see accidents like this happen because someone else is being careless and reckless. I appreciate your video, and it just pains me to hear about this incident while at the same time it’s a good example for current and future pilots to learn about what not to do because that student pilot, that person in the pattern, did everything by the book and it just breaks my heart that his life was taken away so suddenly. Thank you again and great video. Keep inspiring students and also keep up the great work!

[@stevereynolds1707]

We fly practice ILS and RNAV approaches at non-towered fields all the time and you have to be so careful as they are always straight in. Always be willing to break off an approach for another aircraft, especially a student pilot. Thanks Jason for all the great videos.

[@RussellTelker]

Just call it a missed approach and fly the procedure for that. Still get the practice, just different practice...

[@moxiepilot9209]

Going missed or circle to land would be fine terminations based on what's going on at the airport.

[@lemonator8813]

@@RussellTelker excellent points.

[@nsant]

Who has the right of way in this scenario?

[@boogerwood]

We had a GREAT example of this. 2-3 planes were in the pattern (1 left by the time the twin made it to the field) and we had a twin calling a straight in approach at 10 and then 5 miles. My instructor actually hopped on the radio and said (paraphrasing) "inbound twin to midway please be advised there are multiple aircraft operating in the pattern. Would advise against a straight in approach. Midway." The inbound twin hopped on and replies (again, paraphrasing): Midway traffic, thanks for the heads up, will alter course and enter from a 45 on the downwind". Literally the next day the Watsonville incident occurred. As a student it struck me that WE were in a similar situation. The difference being the proactive communication between all parties involved. I learned a lot that day and the next.

[@downc212]

Yep. It’s just that easy. That’s why it’s called “pilot controlled”.

[@PInk77W1]

So could the guy in the C150 have said that ? I’m not a pilot

[@PInk77W1]

@@MattyCrayon I’m so curious why was that 340 speed so high I heard he was old, high speed is something usually the young do

[@samdish]

Seems Twins are the BMW's of the sky !

[@mafp22w]

Jason, (Mitch @KTRM), I’m so glad you brought this up. Far too many pilots of faster planes bully their way in and skip the pattern.

[@kevincollins8014]

This is the most accurate and honest review I've seen of this incident yet. There's actually people out there saying don't turn final until you can get eyes on the other aircraft. There's absolutely no way that guy on base could have seen an aircraft doing 200+Knots towards him. At those speeds even if he got eyes on the twin it would have been too late anyway. Anyone that's seen what the closure rate is at that speed knows exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sorry but there was absolutely zero reason to come blazing in on short final carrying that kind of speed. We all make mistakes and my heart goes out to all involved.

[@jannepeltonen2036]

Overflying the field is something I almost never get to do over here, almost all untowered fields in Finland have lots of glider activity and overflying the field is specifically discouraged at those airfields :) The typical approach is to circle the field outside and above the traffic pattern and then join downwind.

[@fishofshark1]

Buy an adsb. See traffics on your screen. Best safety investment for GA pilots

[@RichardofOz]

Tips for uncontrolled aerodromes from a retired controller. The base turn point is a decision point, we call it the 'race to base'. For GA aircraft, whoever will get to base or 3nm final first is usually #1 and the other aircraft gets adjusted somehow. For higher performance aircraft 5nm is a good rule of thumb. Once an aircraft is on final at those distances, we don't let a pattern aircraft turn base. Every situation is different, these are just used as a guide which are adjusted for aircraft speeds. The twin didn't give an estimate for the field? Hard to sequence yourself with other traffic if you don't know either how fast they are going and how far away they are, or what their estimate for the field is. Use their estimate to work out where you will be at that time and plan to sequence yourself behind them if its going to be tight. If you are worried about a conflict, always better to keep the other traffic where you can see it. Try to deconflict yourself in a way that maintains the best visibility of the conflict. Once you are committed to base, there aren't a lot of go round options that get you out of the conflict area quickly. When I fly I try to combine ATC principles to keep myself segregated from other aircraft until I can see them. So how would ATC have managed this? In a radar environment we would have speed data to help us determine the sequence, in a non radar environment we would require estimates to be given. From either of those we can quickly determine the best sequence. From there we would give instructions to segregate the traffic until we could see both aircraft and ensure they would remain separated, or handover responsibility to the pilots (sight and follow). Option 1: straight in aircraft sequenced #1. If we need more room between a pattern aircraft and a straight in aircraft, an orbit early downwind would be the first step with the option for a small downwind extension later if a little more adjustment was required. If not much room was needed, just a downwind extension would work. That puts the pattern aircraft in a good position to sight the other aircraft while on downwind, turn base behind them and follow them. Option 2: pattern aircraft sequenced #1. First option would be to slow down the straight in aircraft. That doesn't always work with slippery aircraft, and at 10 miles when you normally start talking to an aircraft in the tower you don't have much distance to make use of speed control (if you are trying to squeeze in front of a faster aircraft, it will rarely work). Even slowing them down you still have a faster following scenario. Alternatively, commit early to the sequence and put a descent restriction on the arriving aircraft (that separates vertically above the pattern). Give tracking instructions to join the pattern. Once established laterally in the pattern and clear of conflict issue decent to pattern altitude. Having them join the pattern even with an altitude restriction gives options for sequencing with other pattern traffic below such as extend upwind, or a wide circuit which is a good option for higher performance aircraft allowing them to keep sight of slower aircraft running a tighter pattern. And that will work for an arrival from any direction. Not surprisingly these options are similar to the recommended techniques and what Jason suggested.... they are based of ATC principles, just simplified to work without ATC. Sequencing a straight in approach with pattern traffic with aircraft of different speeds is tricky even with a radar and not flying your own aircraft at the same time. That situation should ring an alarm due to increased risk that you need to manage. Lots of ways to segregate yourself with the pattern while working out how to fit yourself into it. Just as there are ways to deal with aircraft that are not following those procedures. Estimates are key for non controlled aerodromes. If a Pilot makes an inbound call without one, ask them for their estimate. Set up the deconfliction plan at 10nm out, don't leave it until 3nm on base.

[@FencerPTS]

Thank you for reacting to this. One thing that this accident made me consider explicitly is that on a straight-in approach there is a pretty large blind spot in front of and below the pilot. For the high-wing / low-wing collision this is exacerbated. But by approaching on the 45 into the downwind all of the issues are mitigated by being able to see the pattern laterally. I'm baffled as to why the twin was traveling so fast an why they never considered that even if they'd made the runway there would still potentially be an airplane there in front of them.

[@Bucketnate]

Stuff like this is scary for people like me who are thinking about getting into this field. The fact that there is SO MUCH communication but someone can still be like this is jaw dropping. That student pilot was probably like so many others looking forward to building toward his experience.

[@bowedonut22]

Look at it this way: pilots are better trained than drivers. The pilot made a bad call and it killed some people which is definitely sad, but car accidents happen every day and we all still drive.

[@earthwindflier]

Thank you for this!! Non towered airport = aviate, navigate, (and then) communicate. The 340 was working his priorities from the back of the list.

[@nuclearscarab]

Once again it's important to emphasize listening and reacting to traffic pattern calls. It seems like speaking on the radio is emphasized, but accidents primarily result from not listening on the radio. I had a similar scenario with a much faster plane behind me, with us both in the pattern. We both made all the correct calls, and I foolishly thought that the pilot behind me would go around. Praise God that I realized I needed to go around before I had the same type of accident seen here.

[@melodigrand]

The pilot of the twin does not acknowledge having heard any of the transmissions from the other pilots.

[@kentd4762]

Thank you, as others have said, for calling out the straight-in twin. Yes, the loss of life is sad and unfortunate all around, but the student paying the ultimate price really causes a knot in the stomach--especially since he tried to get away from the bad situation. RIP to all who lost their lives. The rest of us, fly safe, smart and courteously.

[@nickrahal1]

I operate out of a small uncontrolled field that has a very busy flight school. It’s not uncommon to have three or four airplanes in the pattern. It’s also not uncommon for instrument students to be practicing approaches straight into the runway. To compound things, there are also high-performance airplanes and helicopters doing operations regularly. So this accident scenario is not unfamiliar to me. I’ve developed 4 skills to minimize the risk of a mid air collision: 1: Announce your intentions early and often (use time as well as distances on your callouts) 2: Know what kind and where the aircraft are in the pattern. ADSV is helpful with that as well. 2: Follow FAA traffic pattern entry recommendations. This will make your movements predictable to other aircraft. 3: Be patient; be prepared to do a 360 on down or extend downwind or even leave the traffic pattern and try again.

[@lemonator8813]

Sounds just like watsonville. You've got to have your head on a swivel.

[@pedrodepacas2463]

This makes me appreciate some of the stress and the extra 360s requested by ATC at my towered airport (KSDL). I love the non-towered too but it does feel good to have professional eyes backing me up when coming back to earth.

[@jacbob5824]

"humble pie and a good reminder" Fantastic choice of words. There is never a moment you should be in a rush in the air. Controlled chaos under stress happens, but learning human factors is important to know because it is human error that causes most aircraft incidents.

[@JB_Hobbies]

I flew into an untowered airport today, and this accident was 1,000% on my mind. Lucky for me, it was a typical ctaf with zero traffic at the time of my arrival.

[@michaelavramidis6455]

Thank you for acknowledging that a straight in is dangerous when there is traffic in the pattern. I did my training at KWVI and it is so frustrating and dangerous when pilots just come in however they want whether it is straight in, base only, or some strange hybrid. I think it is time the FAA steps up and just prohibits non standard entries at non-towered airports. As aviators we are given a significant amount of discretion but if there isn't an emergency there is no good reason to deviate from the standard pattern.

[@YaroslavNechaev]

what about IFR approaches? What about flying in mountainous terrain in a jet? Would you destabilize your approach and make low-altitude maneuvers when terrain is a factor just to do a pattern? Straight-in approaches are not more dangerous if all parties have situational awareness and feel responsibility to see and avoid other aircraft. As it stands with blanket statements like "straight in is dangerous" people feel entitled to cut in front of traffic on final and cause all sorts of accidents, which could have been easily avoided with a tiny downwind extension.

[@PInk77W1]

@@YaroslavNechaev I don’t think the guy in Watsonville who turned in felt entitled I think he had Lo experience and no clue the Twin was doing almost 200mph. But yes an extended downwind would’ve been smart. I’m not a pilot.

[@tstanley01]

That is a horrible idea, and there are plenty of good reasons...

[@michaelavramidis6455]

IFR approaches are on with a controller who would have warned the twin pilot of the hazard. Extending downwind for 20 at KWVI puts you on a direct heading for a 4500 mountain. Had the 152 been a twin should it have extended downwind heading fast straight into a mountain? You talk about entitlement but that is exactly the mentality of the twin in this scenario. Airports that are situated in terrain that would make a standard pattern dangerous would take that into consideration.

[@thomassimpson9699]

Very good video. Here in the UK with have a "Standard overhead join" most uncontrolled airfield request pilots join with this method. I personally employ this on every flight to uncontrolled fields. . Overfly at 2000 ft, decend to 1000 ft on deadside and join cross wind. Provides spacing, allows a visual inspection of airfield environment, spot traffic improving situational awareness. Terrible and preventable loss of 3 souls and reminds us that we all have a responsibility to make sure our follow aviators go home to their families as well as ourselves at the end of a good days flying. Fly safely all. 🙂

[@75Seneca2]

That’s similar to our ATF procedure here in Canada…overfly midfield 500 above circuit height, turn and descend to circuit height on dead side, then cross over midfield again and enter the downwind, making calls at multiple positions. Just did that last Friday at a fly in with traffic everywhere. Unlike the twin driver in this tragic accident, I had my Seneca slowed down well before getting to the aerodrome to make it easy to get in the circuit with other traffic…

[@MattyCrayon]

Spot on advice 👍 same here in Australia. It doesn’t take hardly any extra time and increases situational awareness and safety 👍

[@RussellTelker]

My takeaway from this accident is kinda complex. On one hand, the twin pilot is absolutely at fault and never should have continued his approach and long final. On the other hand, the student called his base shortly after the twin called a 3 mile final, would have been very easy to extend the downwind and wait for the twin to blast by. Yes, the student was right, he had the right of way as he was already established in the pattern. But sometimes it's easier to give way and deal with the jerk on the ground instead.

[@dusttodust]

Please, please - all pilots, protect yourself. Don’t turn base until you have all aircraft ahead of you on base or final in sight, or as a bare minimum in the case of a long on-final aircraft they call YOU in sight. Extend your downwind as a first choice if it is safe at the location. Backup options are, if nobody is behind you in the pattern, delay by circling or just bail out of the pattern and return to re-enter on the 45 degree.

[@susansticazsky9787]

It is absolutely incredible to see how reckless some pilots are even when entering a pattern in an uncontrolled airport. Yesterday at 0S9 I was in the pattern downwind and I had called three times approaching the airport. Total silence. Another aircraft then called 3 miles south and wanted to use the other runway. Wind was calm. After I informed him that I was in the pattern he decided to enter the downwind for the same runway. He did not have me insight I asked him three times if he could see me and he responded negative. In spite of that he continued to fly directly aiming straight at me at pattern altitude with a faster aircraft. I could see him on ADSB behind me. I gave it full power and climbed. Allowing him to cut me off. Crazy.

[@PInk77W1]

Can he get in trouble for that ? I’m not a pilot

[@lemonator8813]

@@PInk77W1 you can report them to the local FSDO. At towered airports its generally at the discretion of the controller.

[@PInk77W1]

@@lemonator8813 THx

[@eds.173]

Not defending him but at least he changed to the same runway. At 0S9 downwinds are both on the south side (Rwy 09 is R traffic).

[@Shojohn11]

Here's what really gets me is that the student in the Cessna actually spots the twin behind him as if he had Rear View Vision and meanwhile the guy in the twin has total vision but like you said he's looking off to the left he's looking at base but from what I was learning in my earlier days of Ground School always scan with your eyes never keep them fixed on one point unless you're trying to find a reference that's not near the Airfield obviously

[@Shojohn11]

This is an addition to the poor and dangerous airmanship that was performed I'm not bypassing that that information was already established great post I'm going to sign up

[@rinzler9775]

The guy in the twin apparently had the attitude that he owned the runway, and all must stand aside to let him straight in travelling like a lunatic at high speed.

[@darrylday30]

It sounds like the 152 pilot actually saw the twin behind him through the back window or the convex rear view mirror. The twin wouldn’t have looked as close or fast in the mirror. Either way, it wasn’t enough. Update: he may have spotted the twin via ADS-B on his iPad. So close to an escape. Breaks my heart.

[@JapanesePiano1]

You also have a high wing aircraft going around and a low wing aircraft landing. That definitely did not help with visibility.

[@Shojohn11]

@@JapanesePiano1 there you have it another Factor looks worse and worse for this guy meanwhile they were pinning it on the poor student who is doing everything absolutely right some news articles that I read

[@caiolinnertel8777]

Totally agree with your assessment, matches mine. I fly a C414 and rarely ever do a straight in. It gives everyone NO time to ensure there are other traffic in the pattern. There are a lot of No Radio aircraft out there too, not to mention aircraft that mistakenly use the wrong UNICOM freq. I overfly or go a long way around 1000 feet above AND I slow down. The more time you have to announce your position and enter the pattern more safely. Good video.

[@roberthattensty4517]

Jason, great info about flying traffic patterns and the options of entering the pattern. These are great values to follow at non towered airports to keep the flow consistent.

[@braxton.norwood]

Great reminder that radio communications are two-way. The jerk in the twin simply announced what he was doing and ignored everyone else's calls/intentions...which killed three people. Just like defensive driving, assume that the other guy/gal isn't looking out for you. It can be annoying, but extending your downwind leg for someone cutting ahead of you on final costs merely a few seconds and a handful of dollars.

[@thesecretsaint8178]

Thank you Jason for commenting on this accident! I am a student pilot at a non-towered airport. I’ve been in several situations just like this myself where I would have done a go around or extended my downwind. I was sandwiched in between two jets. On the downwind and my young CFI. decided after the first jet landed he would take over and do a short final approach and land quickly before the one behind us could land. I was still very early on in my training so I didn’t know any better. When we got to the ground though my young CFI. was chewed out for doing that. Overconfidence in one’s abilities cause accidents also. It’s this reason that I will always announce that I am a student pilot in situations like that so they understand who they’re working with. Thank you again for “your finer points”!

[@williamhealy5918]

I notice when these incidents occur the early commenters often pussyfoot around giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. But upon reflection the obvious becomes undeniable. Reckless, selfish, dangerous, .. Jason, hats off to you for calling a spade a spade.

[@gregc6661]

Thanks for your video and for highlighting this very important procedure. So sorry for the lives that were lost in this accident

[@ProfSimonHolland]

good points Jason...thanks for your wisdom.

[@rodolfoayalajr.8589]

Condolences to the families and friends. Rip Amen 🙏. Thank you Sir for sharing educational this horrific accident.

[@norcalengineer]

THANK YOU!! So many commentaries on the C152 pilot cutting off the twin (invoking the rule about an aircraft on final having right of way), but this could have been avoided if the twin followed the pattern entry standards. Just please overfly the field and get in line and no one gets hurt.

[@lyingcat9022]

Yeah that doesn’t make sense. Were they saying that any aircraft can just call a 5-10 mile final and and throw a wrench into the pattern with multiple people already established? If anything I would argue that someone on base should have the right of way to anyone on a long final. Cuz what is the airplane on base supposed to do? Turn back downwind potential head on with the the other airplane? Pass final and fly an up wind potentially getting t-boned? Turn tight inside the traffic pattern asking for a stall spin or fly inside the pattern causing more potential collisions elsewhere? No the person on straight in has way more maneuverability and safe options to break off final.

[@sparkie951]

Thank you.. Very well presented... Thanks for the Advisory Circular!

[@brodiebrazil]

Hey Jason, hope all is well. This one still baffles me… the 340 was till planning a full stop doing 180 over the ground about 2 miles out? Straight in = not favorable as you suggest. But how was he ever going to land at that speed? This one hurts the heart.

[@musicalg.o.a.t6272]

This is definitely going to keep me from doing long straight in’s thank you for this video.

[@brianb5594]

Jason, great overview of what happened here. It’s sad that some pilots think they can just come blazing in at 150 K into the traffic pattern at non towered airports so save a few minutes. Shame on the guy in the twin Cessna for doing so. I have nothing against straight in Approaches but if you’re going to do them, you need to be looking at TCAS, and eyes outside and know where all the traffic is and fit in with the flow of traffic. If you can’t fit on a straight and then you need to enter a downwind as you discussed. There’s simply no excuse for that and what a sad ending for both pilots and passengers.

[@Senor0Droolcup]

I’m a local Watsonville single engine pilot and this was 100% my thinking as well. I’m hearing some pushback from twin pilots and instructors who point out that we should still expect straight ins from twins and jets who may be too fast for the traffic pattern. This accident is a special case with a twin pilot who is coming in way way too fast and was clearly at fault in the accident. But I’m curious if most pilots flying this type of twin Cessna would do a traffic pattern behind the 152?

[@johnwilliams2768]

I fly into Watsonville on occasion from the valley. You come over the coast range at at least 4000 likely higher. Once clear you enter a valley where the field comes up quickly. One it’s quite a bit of altitude to lose, especially for a straight in. Two it’s not a lot of time to assess traffic. I always use the space west of the field to lose the altitude safely and work out the traffic. In the days not that long ago without AdsB it was listening and looking. Once I added AdsB I was shocked how planes there were in that area. I still can’t believe any pilot would lose that much altitude and still set up for a good straight in approach.

[@kenkessner9594]

Agree. I would often annoy my FO's by making a more conventional pattern entry., particularly at non-tower airports. (ATP, 7000hrs jet, 3000hrs helo).

[@tomdchi12]

Jason, I appreciate your frankness here. That said, I immediately clicked on this hoping you might have some input on what the student pilot might have done in terms of "defensive flying." My noob understanding is that the 152 pilot did nothing really wrong, but it seems like there are opportunities for pilots (students or not) where they could stack the odds in their favor. I get the impression that the 152 pilot, when he was on downwind didn't easily see how extremely fast the other plane was going straight-in, but might have extended the down wind to let the faster plane just blast on in. Once the 152 pilot turned to final, and could see how extremely fast the other plane was going, was there anything better he could have done at that point?

[@gringoloco8576]

An aircraft on final has right of way period. Though this twin was reckless with speed which messed everything up. Look at 91.113. Jason is wrong on this (in a way) as he should mention that the aircraft on final has right of way. Reckless speed might trump all that though. As a student pilot you should be extending the downwind or doing a 360 for spacing and definitely don't turn final if an aircraft has called a 3 mile final.

[@novafluxx]

@@gringoloco8576 Was the twin "on final" from his initial call? Where does one actually get "on final" 3 miles? 5 miles? 10 miles? If you call 9 miles out that you're doing a straight in, are you on final from that point on and all traffic now waits for you?

[@pedrodepacas2463]

@@gringoloco8576 - OK but besides the letter of the law, what can we do as newbie pilots in the pattern do to avoid this. If I heard a 3 mile call and I'm about to turn base I would need to know how fast he's flying, do a 360 or wait on my base there. What's the best move defensively if I have another plane in pattern behind? I have no rush to land but I want to land.

[@dianemenke3185]

@@pedrodepacas2463 I think the student might have asked the twin "what type" or "what is your speed" or requested the twin change his plans. He might have extended DW to locate the twin coming in. I prefer to have eyes on bad pilots keep them in front of me. Not saying the 150 was wrong just a couple options. If you are flying with foreflight and the other planes have ADSB in and out you will see them and see their speed, altitude etc. Thats a big help. Sometimes when we grind out the pattern we forget we can alter it with a 360 or extending etc. On my first solo I did a straight in landing w 1 guy also joining the pattern who was calling the wrong RW #. I was eager to get down and he was sloppy reporting but he was gracious enough to say he would do a 360 for me. I thanked him for that. I hate un-towered airfields for sloppy flying like this. Even with ATC I had a pilot flying right at me when I turned into the pattern as directed at our home field. ATC saved my butt that day. I was in a faster plane.

[@earnedwings5206]

Thank you for showing this, we all get better and hopefully become safer pilots because of it. We should never be in a rush in aviation period. This was 100% avoidable and such a tragedy.

[@stephenthompson3418]

Really appreciate your channel.

[@thomasdavis5514]

A new pilot friend was asking me about this accident, as it is a common scenario at out local airport. My answer to him was this; yes the twin pilot was in the wrong to call a straight in final from so far out and expect pattern traffic to yield. That said, my recommendation is to radio your position and state that there is training traffic in the pattern. If they don’t adjust to fly the pattern, state that you will extend, or circle, whatever to avoid a conflict. You can come back and land and have a conversation about good airmanship, but DO NOT RISK YOUR LIFE because of another persons poor airmanship.

[@MichaelLloyd]

I've been working on my instrument rating. We do practice approaches at 3 different uncontrolled fields for now. We are about to start flying into a Class Delta airport and bring ATC into my training. I'll be glad when we do that.

[@mikeboulant8911]

Great explanation, Jason. I was at South Lake Tahoe on Friday morning. I’m in the runup area for 36 and a 182 (if I remember correctly) is doing pattern work on 36 without ADS-B. There was a King Air coming in to land on 18. He was on short final while the 182 was making a touch and go on 36. At one point, the King Air asked the the 182s position and he didn’t respond. I ended up responding, as the 182 was still on the runway. He got airborne and ended up making a quick turn to right crosswind to get out of the way of the King Air, but it was too close for comfort. In your opinion, what would be the right move by either plane? TVL recommends landing 18 and departing 36 when winds are calm. Both were using the correct runway, by those standards.

[@CheckSixAviation]

The guy in the twin definitely should have been the one to go around. He didn't have the right-of-way since he was at a higher initial altitude. Awesome analysis as usual, Jason.

[@oldschoolcfi3833]

The guy in the twin, bears the responsibility, making a high speed non-standard (even though allowed) pattern entry into an airport with close traffic in process. It's unlikely he saw the Cessna, ever. This also highlights a flaw in training -how to avoid an imminent collision. The student pilots choice of go around was exactly as he was trained - when an issue occurs on approach, we go around, which driven into pilots from day one. The go around kept him in the path of the twin, who couldn't see him below him. A robust left or right turn (45 deg or more) might have made a world of difference, but I'd bet that topic never came up in the students training. See and avoid is good, when it works, but when the other aircraft is just getting larger rapidly, you've got to MOVE your airplane NOW. In 35 years of GA, I've only had to do that twice. Both times a bold nose down turn prevented us from colliding. The other aircraft in each case simply carried on as if nothing had happened.

[@richardhansen2480]

The ADSB shows the twin was carrying excessive speed , which was a major factor in the crash. He simply ran over the traffic in front of him. Unfortunately all 3 perished

[@golfnovember]

First, and thanks for your commentary. Tragic event indeed. I work at Thermal Airport, and on the field everyone was talking about it. We also ad a 340 owner in our hangar. He agrees that the approach by the twin was way too fast, and wanted to push around the smaller plane out of the way, which is wrong.

[@normk5761]

I just can’t stop shaking my head on this one. It was so different than others in that the single saw the twin and even communicated to him, yet the twin continued his straight-in at a ridiculously high rate of speed. This should have NEVER happened. Thanks Jason for all you do 🙏

[@wb6anp]

I have been wondering, by coming in that fast, would he even have been able to slow down enough in time to land and stop in the length of the runway.

[@avocadoflight]

He had his PPL since 2020. Rest in peace 'Possum Stu'.

[@jhamesalmeda9961]

I literally flew that 90FL back in Livermore. That’s was my go to Aircraft. Sheeesh

[@arip9234]

Was waiting for someone to say up loud that the guy who came in straight to final at twice the pattern speed is at fault! Thank you and dong forget to enter on a 45 to the downwind and stay alive

[@goatflieg]

I first watched Juan Browne's Blancolirio meticulous coverage of this accident. Your information with excellent graphics makes a great follow up that will teach pilots the right and wrong way to deal with an uncontrolled airport. Your reaction was accurate and unfiltered. My reaction to this accident can be summed up in one word: arrogance.

[@smartycummins2500]

It happens to all of us in terms of traffic conflicts. Just the other day, I was dealing with a right main gear issue in terms of couldn’t get a green light on my right main. I ended up going around, resequencing, and flying the traffic pattern again to the runway I intended to land on. In the process of flying the downwind, and trying to get my right main gear issue solved, and I ended up getting the green light on the right main. I was cleared to land and started to turn my left base. About the time I was turning my left base, a Navajo called into the tower checking in saying they were on the RNAV approach into the runway I was cleared to land on. First time hearing from the Navajo. The airport I fly out of has no radar in the tower. Tower asked the Navajo what his distance was, and he said he was 3 miles out. Tower asked the Navajo to confirm he said he was 3 miles out. Before Tower could say anything else, I broke off my left based approach and told tower that I was going to resequence behind that traffic. Long story short, I very easily could’ve had this exact same situation happen to me two days ago. Not gonna lie, I had no idea he was there as I had my hands full dealing with my gear issue. But as soon as I heard he was 3 miles out on his initial call, I became aware of him and Voluntarily broke off the approach. Technically, I was the one who had the right away. But it didn’t take tower telling me for me to make a decision to get the hell away from that conflict.

[@harrisonsimmons8367]

90-66B also says aircraft in pattern shouldn’t cut off aircraft on straight in approaches…

[@stephenjanusz2684]

This happened to me this past weekend, someone coming straight in on a 3 mile final with 3 people in the pattern just as I turned base. I re-entered a downwind just to see them scream past 40 seconds later 😮‍💨

[@jennifervanloggerenberg2993]

I totally agree, that pattern is there for a reason. I'd like to share how we enter the pattern here in South Africa, fly over the airfield 1000ft above pattern alt, determine runway in use if there is no traffic, else follow the traffic, decent to pattern altitude on the dead side and enter the pattern at crosswind. I can honestly say that I've never made a long straight in, but I've heard that radio calls, whomever on 10 mile final for whatever runway, what I did however is, if there is no traffic or very few traffic, cross midfield at pattern alt and enter mid down wind at a 45 degree angle.

[@timbacchus]

As a 50 year pilot and plane owner I agree with you on this. You are already saving so much time going 200mph there was just no reason to pull what the twin did.

[@michaelwilliamsd.o.5006]

When in doubt select zone 5 and live….we love to fly so fly away if it doesn’t feel safe! IFR training necessitates straight in….but if the pattern is full I’ll stay high and go around. Down wind can extend easy to help plz. Share the sky and slow down. Peace

[@tds456]

It is always super important to check the airfield information for joining instructions as some have very non standard setups. Field I flew into today has a join 100ft above the traffic pattern - not a typo, actually 100ft as 100ft above that is class C. A few other fields have strange joins due to noise abatement and we regularly have people getting surprised by other planes appearing where they aren't expecting them.

[@FranksMSFlightSimulator]

I still prefer the Aussie-preferred way of entering a circuit/pattern, ie overfly and then join crosswind. Like you I prefer overlying 1000’ above circuit/pattern rather that 500’ because the latter is where the faster aircraft will be. Cheers.

[@floatinflyinandfishing]

the way the radio calls shook out sounds like student was on base. when is the last time you taught anybody how to go around from the base leg? If seen some say he should have made a right, well then he is turning into the path of the guy doing 180kts…a 360 configured in base? an offset left? then he runs the risk of getting run over from the twins impending go around or is head on vs other down wind traffic. his only optionwas to extend his downwind, but low time, and the other guys blazing fast speed sealed his fate.

[@vgrof2315]

I lost a number of friends in a very similar accident in a P-3 at Moffett Field, CA about 50 years ago. I am absolutely disgusted that the aviation world has not figured out how to prevent collisions of this type in 5 decades. KZbin "experts" beat their gums to death reviewing accidents online and various groups hold "safety conferences" and create new acronyms every year all to no avail. Why don't all of these blah, blah, blah artists realize nobody's listening? There are way too many GA fatal accidents across the country each week. The only entity who might have some effect are the aviation insurance companies, who typically are unrepresented at the safety get-togethers. Those companies need to put the hammer down, HARD, denying coverage to shaky operations and operators. Tough to do, I know. But the FAA, the NTSB, the AOPA and the flight instructors have all proven that they are barking up the wrong trees.

[@PInk77W1]

Juan Brown said 20 fatal ga crashes a month

[@joedeangelo3032]

Dam straight. What gall to blast straight in at excessive speed and obviously without seeing the traffic he clearly heard.

[@mch979]

The C340 pilot sounded like he slurred his speech a little. Interested in the toxicology report. He should never have flown a straight in to a busy pattern, rather flown to a 3 mile 45 degree entry for a left downwind. Guess he saved a bunch of time. Risk/ benefit.

[@josephliptak]

That twin was like a car flying thru a red light.

[@goneflying140]

This same thing recently happened to me, but I handled it differently. I had just departed my home class G airport, and announced "remaining in the pattern" on departure. A Citation jet announced 7 miles east inbound straight in 28 approach. I saw him on my foreflight, and he was MOVING. I announced my turn downwind, and he said he was at 5 miles. Now I am about to turn Base, and he is 3 miles out, and I still can't see him. Instead of turning base, I wanted nothing to do with a Citation Jet, so I decided to extend my downwind and let him go in front of me. On 2 mile final, I finally had him in sight. I can say that if I would have continued in the pattern, even though I had the right of way, we would have conflicted on final, judging where he was when I saw him. I really extended my downwind to let the vortices clear the runway, so it was all good for me. These guys with big twins and jets hate using patterns because they are used to straight in ILS approaches and don't want to burn any more fuel than they have to. Problem is that someday they will do this when there is an older plane in the pattern with a bad radio, and without communication, they could have the same accident as these two. Always best to join the pattern.

[@MTD369]

I fly at an untowered airport. Left hand pattern. Sometimes its chaos, people doing right hand pattern, some people flying straight in on long finals when there are multiple people in the pattern making calls. Just the other day I was in the pattern on runway 29 (wind was coming from 270) and an IFR pilot just called in a straight in approach on runway 11. Meanwhile I had been in the pattern making calls. It pays to switch to the radio and just listen for a minute. Find who's there, what the active runway is, and joining the pattern on a 45 to the downwind if it's busy.

[@WX4CB]

one exception to that rule (overflying) i know of is KDED where you are NOT ALLOWED to overfly the airport because there are skydivers in the air all day almost every day. it's even in the ATIS that you can't overfly, yet we had a survey plane the other day come in and say (paraphrasing), "ya we're going to overfly at 800 feet and do an opposite traffic pattern to everyone else in the pattern"... needless to say the skydiving plane pilot went nuts on the ctaf at him and he didnt turn up :D If you're going to come in at deland you have to circle around the airport and join the pattern on a 45. for whichever runway we're using at that time. and the TPA is 1100ft (technically 1080 but we all fly 1100)

[@Coops777]

Great video Jason thankyou. As you say, the twin Cessna pilot was so very wrong in creating a very dangerous situation when he knew the pattern was busy. I would like to learn a lesson from the mistake of the 150 pilot though. (I'm low time and inexperienced.) He performed what appears to be a blind turn on base - He knew the aircraft was coming, did not know its exact position but turned anyway. He wasn't in the wrong but didn't save himself.

[@gregkarson]

Excellent! Thanks Jason.

[@MaverickAussie]

Can feel your frustration at this one, Jason, and I totally agree. How many times do we see these types of collisions or near-misses caused by impatience or entitlement of experience pilots thinking they can jump ahead of others, especially if they're students?

[@hillcrestannie]

Super Video ! I feel your frustration.

[@GreenGuyDIY]

So this highlights the meaning of CTAF, where this is an airport where pilots talk to Each Other to coordinate their activities. All to often I get the impression as I listen long before entering the traffic pattern that too many pilots are broadcasting so that others listening will know to maintain separation. If you encounter such an individual, make sure they know that you know they are there and if they are not coordinating ask them outright "what are your intentions?" If they don't respond or press on with a poor excuse get the tail number and report. The radio traffic will back you up. If the traffic is making an ifr approach, make sure you let them know how you are going to give them precedence. The key is talk with the other pilots not just to them.

[@Mark_317]

My CFI was a surfer he told me landing is like waiting for a wave don't go until its your turn.

[@caribbaviator7058]

Good stuff.I am subscribing!

[@gerryortiz8324]

A simple conversation is all it would have taken to make sure both are on the same page. Pilot in S/E Cessna: Hey where you at..ok then I’ll just extend my downwind and come in behind you” or Pilot in Twin Cessna: “Aircraft in the pattern I’m coming in on extended final do you mind if I get in front of you? NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING IN AVIATION

[@Hawk006]

Maybe this is a good lesson for those of us who fly slow high wing aircraft at uncontrolled airports. If you hear someone coming for a straight in approach in a high performance aircraft, and you’re on the downwind leg, don’t turn base until you see him pass you. It nearly happened to me as I was flying a C152 while on an extended downwind leg to allow a twin to make a straight in approach as cleared by the tower. The next thing I know the twin was coming right me, close enough for me to see the pilot and his passenger’s face and the rivets on the plane’s fuselage before he made a sharp right hand turn to get back on the runway heading. We almost didn’t make it home that day.

[@scottmiller4711]

Totally agree with Jason. The pilot of the twin was probably the more experienced pilot and should have known better to fly straight in with other traffic in the pattern. I have personally communicated with pilots calling a long final into a pattern with 4 planes in it.

[@DJ99777]

Enjoyed your thoughts on this one. Not that we are a shining light in aviation regulation but in Australia an aircraft on a straight in must give way to other traffic established in the circuit. I was surprised this was not the case in the US.

[@NitronF117]

I think a big issue is the wording of §91.113. According to (d), the twin had the right-of-way. According to (f), the student had the right-of-way. Who knows who had the right-of-way according to (g)? How far out can an aircraft claim to be on “final”? Is an aircraft on their base leg in the pattern “approaching the airport for the purpose of landing”? It feels like most pilots have an intuitive sense that traffic in the pattern should have the right-of-way over traffic entering the pattern. I’d really like to see the FAA update the right-of-way rules to explicitly state this, and clean up all the ambiguous language.

[@MattyCrayon]

Couldn’t agree more. Here in Australia regulation 91.395 requires a pilot conducting a straight-in approach to give way to any other aircraft flying in the circuit pattern. When I read the reg you mentioned. I was stunned that it didn’t explicitly provide protection for circuit traffic. Especially considering how much more training is done over there.

[@vvork_info]

@Jason, thanks for this video. [ tl;dr... The position of the 340 was likely visually obscured by the Santa Cruz Mountains (height ~3700ft) behind it. ] I have been a student pilot at KWVI over the past 5+ years. I have paused during COVID-19, so take the following with a grain of salt. I have encountered the same situation (minus the other-pilot-engaging-warp-drive twist) numerous times at KWVI: I'm in the the traffic pattern, and another pilot is doing a straight-in approach. My CFI has instructed me to extend downwind in that situation. 2.5+ years since my last flight, one of my lingering memories is the difficulty I had spotting the straight-in pilots because they had descended low enough that the Santa Cruz Mountains were behind them. Picking out a plane masked by the SC mountains is significantly harder (for me anyway) than picking out a plane with a clear blue sky behind it.

[@larkpilotN4208X]

Good radio communication could have prevented this accident. Sadly we can’t teach the ones gone to talk to each other and not race to the intersection of death. It appears more people are flying their planes like they drive cars. You have a great ground school app!! Just wish I could use it on the iPhone. ✌️

[@ravenn22]

I still can't figure why ADS-B was showing the twin at 180kt at 3nm out, and he was still calling for full-stop. A lot of people speculated he was going to fly-by and showboat, but calling full-stop doesn't make any sense. I did my PPL in KWVI and saw my share of twins and turboprops that felt like they were above flying a pattern entry.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

Jason Im a retired CFI of aerobatics, EFATO and low go arounds and more. I hate to see Dan Gryder putting you down and almost insulting you. He is pro straight approach bullies. Cant do short approaches well it seems and you did that and he hated you could. HERE IS A LIST OF THE MANY COMMENTS I POSTED ON HIS VIDEO OF PUTTING YOU DOWN. Dan Gryder is favoring here the straight in guys that bully like they do into the cafeteria food line IN FRONT OF YOU. Most airlines pilots cannot do short approaches and dont like the guys that can do them nice and well to practice emergencies or EXPEDITE TRAFFIC. Jason is right. When a non standard guy jumps the line, you can tell him to slow down, or join the upwind leg. Some guys cant maneuver in the pattern, go 5-10 miles around the airport and set themselves for a straight in that requires less maneuvering they cannot do well. They make maneuvering mistakes. They are only Mild Maneuvering Mediocre pilots. Mediocre Pilots love straight in non maneuvering approaches. They get nervous doing maneuvering in the pattern like the others can do. They cant do safe low maneuvering either. They are dangerous doing maneuvering. Those are the problematic pilots we all have to push out, not them pushing us in the circle. Tell them F you. Im in the circle, you don’t cut me of, Join the line. Dont cut me out. Go for them on the ground or report them to FAA. Or both. Be brave, not cow. Those guys will walk all over you if you are a coward. ANOTHER COMMENT I DID. In roads traffic circles, the ones in the circle have the right of way, regarless if you drive a sport car or not. You cannot keep going straight and make them maneuver or stop for you. You have TO YIELD to the ones in the circle. That is the law. Jason is right on this. 70 year old retired CFI of aerobatics and Emergency Low Maneuvering (EFATO and low go arounds). 3 times i was almost killed by guys entering fast and wrong to our traffic pattern. Straight approach guys are a huge problem. They cannot maneuver well, go around the airport, then plan on an easier to do for them straight in. Easier for them lazy guys ANOTHER; Most airline pilots CANNOT do short approaches. and hate them (They find them difficult to do well). Some nasty guys. when are going to do their Ego Trips of straight in approaches, they lie about the distance, get lower and faster to cut in front of the others in the circle and push the others in the line. Then when a non coward pilot do a short approach, even if safe distance from them, they hate the guy for not lying and cheat like he was doing. And not falling for his lies. They winne about a guy that interrupted their dirty tricks with a maneuver HE CANNOT DO. Cheaters dont like TALENTED PILOTS that they are not. CHEATERS HATE TALENTED PEOPLE THAT STOP THEM CHEATS. Just like cops that stop creeps on the road cutting off others for fun. ANOTHER; The Cirrus arsehole was lying about his distance and his intentions too by been so fast and lying. He was dam reckless too. All while saying he was close to the airport 2 miles only. But the liar was at 5 miles away instead. A big liar trying to push and fool all others. Jason Miller did the right maneuver to land and stop the liar from winning. And there was no danger in landing with a guy on a single 3 miles behind you. The bully liar could slow down to the right speed he should have and respect the others in the circle and stop been a danger to them. It is illegal to lie on a federal communications media that will endanger others lives. Brave CFI’s stop the bad pilots from abusing others. Dan likes liars i can see now. Coward pilots let liars keep doing dangerous things and promote bad behaviour. AND JASON MILLER IS NOT A COWARD PUSH OVER. --- To Ramp Rat. Are you stupid ? The Cirrus guy was lying. Grow a pair and call a lie a lie already. Man up.

[@MyWTFName]

I don't buy into the notion flying a "recommended" traffic pattern increases safety, in this case it would just have moved the collision point to the downwind. These were 2 pilots not giving up their position assuming the other would yield to them. Arriving at fly-ins and social events I see the same behavior all the time, mostly terrible behavior of cutting in front of each other and closing the separation gaps. Accidents like this can only be avoided when pilots fly defensively, drop their ego and explicitly call out their landing sequence behind another aircraft. We can analyze this all day, to err is human, and driving home face the same dangers in a car of being cutoff at 4 way stop street by a late arriving vehicle or 2 lanes merging into 1 has someone in the distance trying to get in front at the last second.

[@uhohDavinci]

I don't think the 152 pilot thought for a second he was "cutting" in front of the incoming 340.. he had absolutely NO reason to expect the 340 to be coming in a nearly double a standard approach speed. In his mind and any reasonable persons mind, he was ahead of the 340, WAY ahead. The only thing that screwed this all up, was the twins excessive rate of speed coming in on approach(not to mention straight in with 2 others in the circuit).. There was no ego with the 152.

[@MyWTFName]

@@uhohDavinci Thanks for your official NTSB report. It should include your recommendations for all complex aircraft landing at towered and non-towered airports to ignore their POH of typical 140 knot approach and 95 knot final speeds, rather enter the downwind behind a slow Cessna 152 and maintain 65 knots for separation. Ignore their stall speeds, stall warning horns and spiraling into the ground, just fly behind as slow as they can to avoid a 20 knot overtake :)

[@MattSwinden]

@@MyWTFName - we don’t care “what you don’t buy…” SOPs are created for safety. It is people like the twin pilot, and I’m guessing by your snarky comments - you too, who flagrantly disregard the SOPs are danger to others. Thanks for demonstrating that you exhibit one of the five hazardous behaviors of aviation. You know the saying…”There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There ARE NO OLD BOLD pilots.” I hope to never read an NTSB report with your name in it.

[@MattSwinden]

@@MyWTFName And tell me Jordan, how about the twin pilot who ignored his POH and the flew the approach at 181 kts and didn’t even have the gear nor the flaps extended at time of impact? What snarky comment do you have for that approach? Or is it perfectly acceptable to fly an approach at a speed higher than that of B737 approach speed and not to even have gear and flaps deployed? Is that OK with you or is that is how you make an approach?

[@wb6anp]

The day before the Watsonville midair EAA had a webinar about this subject.

[@brokenpropproductions]

Fact , a straight in is NEVER a pattern entry. There are “ entry” procedures but a straight in is not one of them. A straight in never enters the pattern. You left out that the twin was at 180kts (adsb) This is not a “pattern entry speed” unless you are flying a 747, and i don’t see many 747s flying into uncontrolled airports. We know the following for sure. The radios worked, volume was up. There were two other planes in the pattern and the twin driver knew it. The twin driver was going way too fast by at least 50kts.

[@josephhann8844]

I came home to my airport Saturday morning straight in on 7. I called 10 miles out, 5 miles out and 3 miles out. I announced straight in for 7 if no one else in in the pattern. I never land straight in if anyone else is near the airport.

[@seadub2]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for clearly explaining why we all had pattern work drilled into us when we completed our primary training. I was taught to never do a straight in into an uncontrolled field, except in the event of an emergency. I hope this incident forces the FAA to re-address the standards for UC fields by holding reckless pilots accountable for behavior like this, instead of picking on Trent Palmer for following their own advisory for off-field landings. Shameful.

[@pilot.joaoneto]

Radio Issue? I wonder if the twin pilot might be talking on a frequency and listening on another. I might be wrong but I don’t notice any response by him to the traffic in the pattern. Maybe wrong radio setting? This doesn’t excuse the high speed approach and the straight in approach.

[@realrussclarke]

Excellent points Jason the twin acted very selfishly and caused the loss of life

[@PInk77W1]

I’m not a pilot But it seems there were 2 factors in this crash 1 lo experience 150 pilot 2 hi speed 340 pilot. Deadly combo. I’m so curious why the 340 was going so fast

[@bremms1]

This was a good video. I’ve been in the pattern and had to extend downwind because someone was doing a straight in and would not enter the pattern. Happened a couple times. Most of the time I will give space and extend downwind. For a twin or biz jet.

[@davidpodbury8415]

Ya I agree 100 percent that this kind of pattern entry at uncontrolled airports are dangerous and not necessary during vfr operations. Just very unfortunate and senseless loss of life.

[@tormozmomotok]

More and more I look at this, it doesn’t even look like an accident 😢 twin could have shot Cessna out of the sky with missile and I’d it would be equally as bad. As more experienced guy in fast plane, you hear a nervous student trying to avoid you… what are you thinking????? What is there even to investigate ??? This is just heart wrenching

[@javev1772]

Any insights on instrument approaches into an uncontrolled airport?

[@TheAirplaneDriver]

Very good summary! And yes…though both pilots made errors, the 340 pilot’s performance was just abysmal. Part of the issue is the way we teach traffic pattern entry. An upwind entry is perfectly legitimate but the FAA just won’t acknowledge that and therefore it is not taught. At least they finally acknowledged that a mid field cross wind is acceptable in their recent AC. Yikes! How long did that take! An upwind entry is viable alternative when entering the pattern from the upwind side and functionally provides the same separation as full circuit touch and goes or stop and goes with crosswind and upwind pattern legs. The 340 could easily have side stepped into an up wind leg then crosswind to downwind to base then final.