Flight trimming the Guillow's Lancer rubber powered airplane!

Part 1: • Guillow's Lancer rubbe...
Part 2: • Guillow's Lancer rubbe...
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[@uffdabike9503]

Thanks for this video. I started building a Lancer when my son was 10 years old. He is now 40. I think that I will complete it this winter so that he and I, along with his 2 year old son, can fly it next summer.

[@joshuawfinn]

That's awesome! Please let me know how it goes!

[@uffdabike9503]

Will do!@@joshuawfinn

[@francismoran1230]

That’s awesome! It’s now April 2024 Keep us posted

[@joeh5028]

Just some general rules of thumb for trimming outdoor rubber powered model airplanes. 1.) Weight is the enemy...only add weight to the nose or tail to get the center of gravity to where it's supposed to be, as shown on the plans...PERIOD! With a "cabin" model of this type, that is the only option. On other models with just mounting rails or a pylon, the whole shebang, wing and mount, can be slid fore or aft to attain balance and no additional weight is needed. 2.) Glide circle is adjusted by stab tilt. ( Looking from the rear, if you want a right turn, the right tip of the stab should be higher than the left.) (If the fin has a warp in it, causing unwanted turns, steam it out!) 3.) Glide trim is adjusted by packing up the rear of the stab and/or the front of the wing...sometimes both. 4.) Power trim is made with the nose block...almost all models require down and right thrust. If you've built the front of your model square, you might just as well add your first shim in the upper right hand corner of the model ( when looking from the front) as this will give you both directions at once. I suggest using thin (1/64 - 1/32) plywood for the front end shims... the rubber motor, at or near full winds can/will compress soft balsa shims. Josh's remarks regarding wing warps are right on...if power and gliding are to the right, the right main panel needs to have wash-in (trailing edge down) to prevent spiral dives. The tips need to have wash-out (leading edge down), in whatever the situation, to prevent tip-stalls. In good lift (and sometimes "rubber bunching") the airplane may tend to stall...with wash-out, the tips stall last making the plane stall straight ahead...without it, the wing will stall off in one direction or the other, dropping that tip, and it'll just dive into the ground. Said warps are best induced during the tissue drying stage of wing covering. For models this size, 1/16" warps should be adequate. Make sure your prop free-wheels during the glide...a locked up prop spoils the glide, the turn...EVERYTHING...as it acts like a brake and a forward rudder. I adjust every "locked up" model (non-movable control surfaces) in this order: Glide trim (while keeping an eye out for glide turn), power trim and then final glide turn. CHEERS!

[@jonquinones964]

One of my favorite plane as a kid..

[@VagabondAstronomer]

Lovely cat.

[@cstatman]

thank you for a lovely trimming tutorial. I cannot wait to apply some of this knowledge to my latest build TONIGHT! :)

[@fierceflyer5]

This was a very useful trimming video. Thanks

[@joemelton81]

I am glad I watched this before building my Lancer! Thank you!

[@oldAdger]

Thanks Josh, I have been following your videos for some time here in the UK and enjoy them very much. A lot of videos on line are short and lack detail, yours however are full of info and always a delight to watch, Keep up the good work 😊

[@joshuawfinn]

Thanks Alan!

[@bobgreen3116]

Thank you for this video. It helps a lot. I'm new to rubber FF as a kid I could never get them to fly very well. Your trimming and telling us what your doing and why your doing it makes things very clear. Keep up the great work. God Bless

[@williamrobinson7435]

Wonderful and informative. I wish I'd known this stuff way back when... Thanks so much for this!

[@joshuawfinn]

Glad to help!

[@gwheyduke]

Good video. Haven't built a Lancer yet. Enjoyed watching it fly.

[@P61guy61]

Excellent! Thank you for posting.

[@chaindriven61]

Thank you Joshua: I learn a lot from you guys on every video. 🤙

[@joshuawfinn]

Thank you! That's exactly why we make these videos!

[@craigroberts3982]

love free flight. It teaches so much.

[@radioboys8986]

thank you am still learning the basics

[@frankflstf]

Nice flights

[@ColeAviation]

Maybe you should but that Cats motor in the plane. 😂 That sucker was running pretty dead on. 😂🤣👌🏼

[@andrewhorsburgh2549]

I enjoy your channel.

[@georgeking3436]

Very nice! Thanks

[@poetslovebirds8388]

No matter what Josh can make'em fly. If it reseables an airplane, can be hand tossed. Josh can and will put it in the air for time. Awesome!

[@joshuawfinn]

Thanks!

[@stout890]

I envy those still calm conditions. I have have been chasing calm conditions since I got into model aviation.

[@joshuawfinn]

Yeah Calm evening flying is the best!

[@stout890]

@@joshuawfinn in my area I don't have calm evenings. we have still mornings but I'm never awake or working....

[@sebafloyd1]

vuela muy bien!!

[@sailawaybob]

very cool

[@finleyhazeldine9021]

wish i could be like you - still yet to make a balsa wood plane that flies

[@keithstegall1961]

Nice flying site.

[@joshuawfinn]

Thanks!

[@rcdogmanduh4440]

Omg in the mid 70's my brother and me built every Gillows plane short of the b-17. Somewhere in tbe middle of all those planes I down shimmed the prop button. It was our first real flight. It was crazy after that, everything flew we built. The Arrow flew away and we never saw it again. 48 years later we still fly RC planes together. I have a Lancer, Javlin and an Arrow rubber powered and thinking my grandsons need the bug lol.

[@joshuawfinn]

Yeah those Guillow's endurance designs can really fly. Downthrust makes all the difference. Also their 16" P-51 and Hawker Typhoon fly impressively well with a larger prop and good rubber.

[@Strattonlad1946]

Nice, Josh! If mine flies that well, I will be pleased. How much rubber are you using?

[@hammeys1]

The cat loves the airplane. I have been building these cox020 powered for around 30 years, and chop the nose and include 6inches of flat centre wing with a leading edge trim shim as per plan. Love the videos.

[@joshuawfinn]

I want to try one with a .020 eventually

[@jabungmumbul1327]

Istimewa

[@BlabberizeYT]

I built the guillows arrow (which I think is the sibling of the lancer) and it NEVER flew like that hahahah. Thank you for putting this up.

[@joshuawfinn]

We're going to do one on the Arrow eventually. With a few tricks that one turns into an absolutely amazing flier.

[@larzhillbot1443]

@@joshuawfinn would love to see a video on the Arrow and Javlin

[@aeromodeller1]

I find that initial glide tests are challenging because we don't know the required speed. Too slow, dive into the ground and break something. Too fast, stall, dive into the ground and break something. I find that a right bank with a bit fast launch lets the initial turn absorb the excess speed while the sideslip will bring the wings level without a stall. This will also get the plane up high enough to get enough airtime to judge trim.

[@arclight4668]

nice

[@noobermon7002]

Noice🔥

[@davidbennett1585]

Your understanding of aerodynamics etc. is pretty damn impressive. Enjoy your videos

[@joshuawfinn]

Glad you enjoy the videos!

[@lilgreencanoe2936]

Really love these videos, lot of good information 😀 Would you suggest thickening of the airfoil profile to improve it? I’m building an RC version, and this video really helped me visualize it’s flight characteristics better

[@joshuawfinn]

Glad you enjoyed it! Actually I'd suggest thinning the airfoil a bit. It's extremely fat and draggy, to the point of hurting lift production.

[@GrotrianSeiler]

Very nice flights. You should be pleased with your efforts. I think I will try one myself. Do you recall what the air was like that day?

[@joshuawfinn]

Weather that evening was pretty much perfect for trimming. :)

[@JessHull]

For a model that at first glance seems to have a lot of deficits, you were able to get it to fly rather nicely.

[@joshuawfinn]

It was a good trip down memory lane. The Lancer may have some issues, but it's cute and fun.

[@Jon.Carlsen]

Very nice flights, Josh, (for a Lancer). 🙂👍 Good under power but they are notoriously poor gliders. I add a 6" center section to the wing to make it 30" wingspan. Big improvement but I guess the contest rules won't allow you to do that? BTW - the plans indicate a shim under the wing leading edge is required.

[@joshuawfinn]

Huh. Guess it helps to look at the plans! 😅

[@sambaker1212]

I hope you don’t mind me remarking like this but,,,,,,sir ,you have a wonderful understanding wife to let you and support you in your auro modeling .....mine was anything but lol xxxxxx

[@joshuawfinn]

Yes, she is a real blessing.

[@perryamicangelo4008]

I just started the same plane, getting into free flight, at 64 years old,!

[@johnathanolsen6959]

I built so many guillows planes as a kid. I wish they supplied good rubber with their kits. I feel like this would make the biggest difference. I loved building them but I don't think there's a chance of them flying with that blue rubber band that comes with them.

[@stevestyx4712]

Another great video but what caught my eye was your flight box. I am thinking of making something like it but can you share some wisdom of yours please.

[@joshuawfinn]

I need to do a video on it eventually along with the planes it was built to support

[@computerillustration]

Excellent videos you make Joshua! Can I ask how: do you make a hinge on the stab for adjusting it and fitting a DT? Cheers A

[@joshuawfinn]

If you look in the description there's a link to the build video where I showed how to hinge the tail for DT.

[@romangonzalez3260]

Do you know what's cool

[@AV8ORinBoise]

Would you be willing to show us your flight box setup for winding the models up. That is very handy. Also I have been building models for many years and I have yet to see the setup you have made to stop the thermals. That would be awesome if you would go into detail on how it works and how you installed it. Thank you for your videos.

[@joshuawfinn]

There should be a link in the description showing how I installed the dethermalizer. The box is a future video feature along with the airplane it was designed to support. If you do a Google search for winding stooge, there should be some good articles on setting up winding rigs.

[@AV8ORinBoise]

@@joshuawfinn thank you!

[@chonker7651]

1:36 OW LAWD HE COMIN

[@billsheppard9368]

If the stab has a lifting airfoil (hard to tell whether it does or not from the pics), it will give nose-down tendancy, requiring seriously rear-ward CG and lots of finickyness in pitch stability. I would try a flat stab and see how CG and pitch issues work out.

[@joshuawfinn]

Not quite. If the stab has more camber than the wing, you'll certainly have pitch instability, however an aft CG alone, with a lifting stab, does not make for a finicky airplane. Quite the contrary, it makes them much more forgiving.

[@CurtisOlson]

I built one of these as a kid (40 years ago?!?) and got it to fly maybe 10 seconds? So cool to watch you work your magic and make these fly so well! Do you have any video from when one of your dethermalizers fire? I've seen those talked about my entire life, but never seen what the airplane looks like once they fire and the rear stab flips up? Could a fixed wing UAV use this technique to land in a tight area?

[@joshuawfinn]

I dont remember where in the video, but towards the end I actually showed the DT going off. Also if you watch the Sunstreak video from a month or so ago, every single flight was set to short DT for exactly the reasons you mentioned.

[@CurtisOlson]

@@joshuawfinn Thanks, I've been catching up on a bunch of your videos so I've seen the DT fire off a few times now. Seems quite effective at it's job!

[@RealSamuelMach]

I have a question. were do you get those rubber bands from i cant find them anywhere? nice build Btw! keep it up!

[@joshuawfinn]

That rubber is from FAI Model Supply. Be sure to get a good quality rubber lubricant too.

[@RealSamuelMach]

@@joshuawfinn Tysm!

[@jamesjacocks6221]

This video could be called The Revenge of the Lancer. Every disparagement was countered by a pretty good flight. I've built free flight rubber craft since my childhood and the Lancer, although everything Josh said, especially being overweight, has the lines of a decent small model. If you can build a nice scale Guillows, trim it and make it fly well then you are a master modeler. The Lancer and its siblings aren't that much of a challenge. Question: for builders with experience with laser, die and print wood models, which do you prefer? I always liked print wood because I could get better fitting parts by iteration and didn't have burn marks. Die crunch was better for plywood because I had mediocre tools to deal with virgin ply. Love some other opinions.

[@joshuawfinn]

You're not wrong. That said it glides like a brick compared to my other models in this size. I get 70-80 second flights with it compared to 3 minutes or more with my 26" span GR-6.

[@MassMangoMurder]

Holy cow is it good rubber that makes it fly for so long? I made the same exact one and trimmed it to perfection yet I get beautiful short 10 second flights. Im using the stock prop/rubber band and can only get so much tension before it snaps back.

[@joshuawfinn]

The included rubber from the kit is definitely not good. Quality rubber makes it fly much, much better.

[@MassMangoMurder]

@@joshuawfinn besides special friends and hidden supplies is there a supplier of quality rubber online? I heard 1972 and 1990s were good years for rubber.

[@joshuawfinn]

@@MassMangoMurder for outdoor flying, the current batches coming from FAI Model Supply are all excellent. For top level indoor it's definitely harder and you need to make friends with other indoor fliers, however that's really only necessary if you're trying to win the Nationals or set a record, and even then I've seen off the shelf rubber take top spots.

[@RedstonePyroMan]

"Definitely flies like it's heavy and has a bad airfoil" Total agree. This thing needs 1/2" more chord and the airfoil needs to actually taper with the wingtips. I think it may be too high % camber too

[@joshuawfinn]

Just cut the airfoil thickness to 8% and it'll make a world of difference. Stab needs a Simplex upper profile or similar at 5% thickness to really make it come alive.

[@RedstonePyroMan]

@@joshuawfinn i think I'll print some templates for this. I've got a second Javelin kit I want to run a few mods on to see how much better it can get

[@travisfriesen7971]

You sound like Kermit the Frog, but in a good way. Nice plane.

[@joshuawfinn]

Hahahaha! I've been told that before! Glad you enjoyed the plane. :)

[@me262a1]

Is 1/16 about the limit for the stab shim? If so would this apply to most planes?

[@joshuawfinn]

It varies quite a bit actually. Usually outdoor rubber endurance models want 3-4 degrees incidence between wing and stab. 5 or so for scale, and then for glow models you'll see as low as 1.5-2.

[@petercyr3508]

I built one in like 1970. Liked the Comet Cloud Buster much better.

[@joshuawfinn]

Yeah can't disagree there.

[@arthurbaretta2755]

How and what needs to happen to improve the wing airfoil

[@joshuawfinn]

More ribs, thinner airfoil, possibly a turbulator spar between the forward spar and leading edge depending on how you set things up at the front. The stock airfoil is almost twice as thick as it needs to be at the root, and over twice optimum thickness at the tips.

[@arthurbaretta2755]

Thank u

[@georgehamati3234]

Should i buy this model i mean is it a good one?

[@joshuawfinn]

Honestly if you have the money, buy a good P-30 kit. They're easier to build and they do fly better.

[@johnmajane3731]

Where can I get a small button timer like that?

[@joshuawfinn]

Right here: jhaerospace.com/product/dethermalizer-damper/

[@johnathanolsen6959]

Do you think you could get a guillows WWII model to fly?

[@jamesjacocks6221]

Johnathan, it can be done. I made a comment about this question above. There are folks putting RC in them!

[@flymachine]

I mean if your CG is on the trailing edge of an unswept wing, that it dives nose heavy is just weird science. I built and flew the heck out of my Lancer, I used a dime store coloured tissue in place of the stock Guillows tissue which made it lighter but much weaker, I would get ok glides but I always felt the wing was poorly designed.

[@joshuawfinn]

For what it's worth, several of my gas models have the CG behind the wing. All a function of size and distance of the stab relative to the wing. Agreed on that airfoil...it makes for a pitiful glide.

[@GunganWorks]

What could be done to modify the stock ribs to improve the airfoil?

[@joshuawfinn]

Sand it down to an 8-10% section, profile it about like a Clark Y or similar, and it'll come alive. Stab just needs the top front of the airfoil flattened out a little because it's too blunt on top at the front.

[@GunganWorks]

I will see what I can do. Thanks!

[@Bargle5]

On my Javelins, I thin the airfoil about 25 to 30%. Don't know what that translates to in section. Flies much better in any case.

[@HughJarse1968]

How thick are the shims, please? Many thanks :)

[@joshuawfinn]

I dont recall what size I used but it doesn't matter. Each plane is different and you keep shimming, ballasting, etc., based on what the plane does.

[@HughJarse1968]

@@joshuawfinn Thanks Joshua, I’m learning a lot from your videos :) Best wishes from England.

[@joshuawfinn]

@@HughJarse1968 awesome! Glad to hear you're enjoying them!

[@hondaxl250k0]

when you say the airfoil is bad. can you explain why? im about to build this kit.. maybe i can improve the wing a bit

[@joshuawfinn]

It's a really thick airfoil, which is less than ideal for such a narrow chord. Go on Outerzone and search for Embryo Endurance models to get a feel for what typical airfoil sections look like for contest models this size.

[@hondaxl250k0]

@@joshuawfinn what do you think about adding about 3-6 in center section and fatten. Up the tips like the bird of time kinda deal.. trying to come up with simple solutions

[@joshuawfinn]

@@hondaxl250k0 I wouldn't extend the wing. It's already too long and skinny for such a narrow chord. Thinning the airfoil and cutting new spar slots would be easier and more effective.

[@hondaxl250k0]

@@joshuawfinn ok.I’ll thin my ribs a bit. I need to invest in a lazer printer lol. I can just print off wing ribs quick and try them.

[@hondaxl250k0]

@@joshuawfinn hey I found a “ one nite 28” kit in my stash. Made by peck polymers.. ever built that one? If so how dose it fly?

[@JeffPhillips2014]

how many strands and length of rubber?

[@joshuawfinn]

4 strands of 1/8, about 20" long.

[@markpedwell1250]

I think you could trim a brick to fly !!

[@joshuawfinn]

Maybe. The Guillow's endurance models are pretty well laid out and this overcomes the poor airfoils.

[@aeromodeller1]

Josh, don't go so far from the camera!

[@magnusericsson8684]

The more you ignore a cat the happier it gets

[@TweakRacer]

I had one of these! Just not built as nice.

[@collinmccallum]

checkout my video of my trixter beam build. getting ready to start a bellanca cruisemaster!

[@ethanhermsey]

I have to say; The rocket sound in the intro overstimulates my audio sensors but not in a pleasant way.

[@aeromodeller1]

Wood prop. Move CG back without adding weight. Minimum prop diameter is square root of wing area.

[@joshuawfinn]

Can't do that for the postal. ;)

[@aeromodeller1]

@@joshuawfinn Right! Must conform to the rules when entering a contest. The rule actually says stock prop diameter, does not say you could not substitute a balsa prop of that diameter.

[@brap242818]

when a pro comes to an internet building flight contest other's give up and push in their chips........

[@joshuawfinn]

Not really. This was done to help a bunch of newbies figure out better ways to make their planes fly. I am by no means the guy who's gonna put up the big times.

[@yosiotter8677]

珍しい柄の猫だね。

[@michaelacker4010]

Over optimum

[@Glicksman1]

Guillows' airfoils have always been inexplicitly terrible. As a model airplane company, one might reasonably expect that this aspect of wing design would be of paramount interest to Guillows to get right. However, this is not and has neve been he case. For a rubber powered sailplane like the Lancer, a reasonably thick (that is, horizontally thicker not thicker balsa, and thicker than the kit airfoil), slightly but distinctly undercambered airfoil is probably the best choice.

[@joshuawfinn]

Long ago, Guillow's had awesome airfoils. Their scale and endurance models from the 1930s are great, and they even kitted excellent power models like the Kiwi series. Lancer and Javelin would definitely fly better with a thin, undercambered airfoil and closer rib spacing. Arrow has a somewhat better airfoil. Their simplified scale series are also excellent other than the nose block issue, and can be made into competitive scale models.

[@Glicksman1]

@@joshuawfinn Yes, I stand corrected. Those early Guillows models were/are great and worth buying and building, if you can still find one. Things seemed to deteriorate designwise at Guillows after the War. I think they were shooting for younger customers. My friends and I started building them around 1960, and we never got one to fly well, or even glide like an airplane. Even with the C.G. correct and built as lightly as possible, they "flew" like a bag of apples. I never built one of the simplified scale Guillows', but of you say they can be made to fly well, I believe you.

[@joshuawfinn]

@@Glicksman1 if you look at the plans for most of the Guillow's kits in production, they share a common publishing date. I don't know the full story, but there must have been a big shakeup in 1967 or so, probably coinciding with them finally taking out Comet as a serious competitor. The old designs were all dropped about that time, replaced with the era of the stupid vacuum formed noses.

[@Glicksman1]

@@joshuawfinn That's interesting, I didn't know it. However, I was building Guillows' stuff and not being able to get them to fly as early as 1960, so that 1967 date and all doesn't seem to matter.(by '67 I was heavily involved with music, keeping out of Viet Nam, and my then beautiful girlfriend who became my forever wife, and other such things). Guilows' better, early designs did not appear in the stores near me when I was a kid, so I was unaware of those well-designed, good-flying kits. I also built Comet Struct-O-Speed airplanes and such, and they ALWAYS flew well. I don't know why I always went back to try Guillows. Maybe it was their excellent, sexy, box art, certainly better than Comet's elementary B&W drawings on the box. Same with Sterling and Monogram Speedee-Bilt balsa stuff, which also did not fly. Their box art was intense and very seductive. Yes, vacuformed noses that would cave in when you put in too many turns. Not that it mattered. More turns just meant that the model would crash into the ground in front of you a little faster. I think that Guillows likely knew that their models couldn't fly, so why bother providing a decent rubber motor, propellor, and noseblock? Pretty cynical if that is so. Kids today, and adults, too, ought to be most thankful for people like you and Hope at J&H Aerospace, and a few other companies that give a damn about real model flying in the old-school manner. Thank you Josh and Hope. Cheers

[@robdisco9287]

The weight man and what you need it to add more space take some wood out and lighten it up.