Flying AVweb's Cool Glass Panel J 3

Ok, so it's not really a glass-panel J-3. Don't take it so literally. But this video offers a deep-dive on two new electronic gyro instruments from AeroVonics. They're as innovative and creative as anything we've seen yet. Veteran Cub pilot Paul Bertorelli gave them a thorough wring out in the J-3.

[@ibgarrett]

I sure hope I’m not the first person to say this - but we need like 10x more of Paul’s producing videos. They are both entertaining (the dry humor is awesome) and highly informative... I consider his videos a “must watch”

[@AVweb]

Thanks for the kind words. Appreciated.

[@MichaelLloyd]

First thought - Step on the ball! :) Second thought - FINALLY someone is making flight instruments to look like they are supposed to!

[@Halli50]

Like they are SUPPOSED to be? Where is THAT defined? In the Bible? As an old-fart, retired airline pilot, I have a lot of respect for the familiar - and the round-dial-indicator maze is certainly familiar. I have to admit, though, that adapting to the "glass cockpit" style instruments was a vast relief...

[@MichaelLloyd]

@@Halli50 It's a comment... on the internet. All that matters is me on the internet :) Technically the new round dials in this video are "glass". I like the GPS capabilities, I don't like that the VOR's and NBD's are being phased out. That will come to see us one of these days. I like carrying my charts in an EFB (iPad). I like being able to see other traffic (some, not all). I like all of the things that ForeFlight (it's what I use, remember, it's the internet) gives me. I don't like navigating around a G1000. It's too clunky and it reeks of having all of your eggs in one... ok two... baskets. That said, I can see where a professional pilot would like having all of that info in one (or two) place. Things move a lot faster in that environment than the environment some C172/C182 flying guy like me flies in. I don't want to go back, I just want to go forward with nice, informative, round gauges that I'm familiar with. I don't even like digital tachs lol

[@Halli50]

@@MichaelLloyd, I understand the attraction to "the familiar" - after all, most of my flying career was spent staring at individual round dials, with all their pros and cons. Personally, I took to the "glass cockpit" environment like a duck to water - but in that I am lucky and I accept that many others want to stick to what they are used to. No problem there, I actually like and take pride in using my sweat-and-tears-acquired round-dial skills. I just found the glass cockpit environment far easier in dense-traffic, marginal-weather IFR situations. And airlines do NOT depend on "all the eggs in one or two basket" operations. What I object to is the phrase "look like they are supposed to". What are flight instruments SUPPOSED to look like? Where is that defined? I you were to ask your grandfather (or you great-grandfather), they would have vastly different ideas - an ASI, a non-sensitive altimeter, a magnetic compass is a MUST and - well, what is a VSI? Have you ever wondered what flight instruments will "look like they are supposed to" in 60-80 years? I, for one, lack the imagination. I agree that phasing out ground-based navaids like VOR's, ILS's and NDB's will bite us in the arse some day in the future when GPS service is denied (the US-haters WILL think of that eventually and it is dirt-easy to do, anyway), and I am sure we can agree that we both are nostalgic (being a social-democratic European I will NEVER admit to being conservative, even if you twist my arm...).

[@MichaelLloyd]

@@Halli50 Lol, we are both in luck, it sounds like we are or are not on opposite ends of the, lets just call it the waste of good air spectrum, and I'm fine with that. Besides that, I'll bet we agree more than we disagree. I defer to your experience on how good the glass cockpit is. And I misspoke when I said two baskets. That's the GA only background coming out again. I should have said - what they are supposed to look like to me. From my perspective the HSI is a truly magical thing lol I'm sure, or at least as sure as I could be, that given enough time behind a G1000 I could figure it out. True story, I just finished the electronic restoration of a 1946 Sears "farm radio". Farm radio means that it didn't run on AC power. it runs on batteries that you can't buy anymore. But I can parallel 6 D cells for the tube filament voltage and series 10 9V batteries for the high voltage (90 VDC) to power it up. It's been sitting for decades but I'll bet you a Euro? that it'll tune a station and sing. It was a coworkers grandparent's radio. They ranched in NE New Mexico (gorgeous area) and there was no power at the ranch. Still isn't. It probably hasn't been powered up in 50 years. Try that with a glass panel lol

[@Halli50]

@@MichaelLloyd, you just answered the "look like they are supposed to" question: What I am used to them looking like. THAT as something I can relate to. I am approaching 70 (retired 5 years ago) and an old fart by any measure, but I really appreciated the technical revolution offered during the last decade of my career. I am still flying privately, what you would call "bush flying" except there is no "bush" in my home country (Iceland). There is, however, a LOT of interesting terrain and weather! We'll need to wait 40-50 years to see if glass (actually LED) panels will be revive-able 70-odd years from now. My guess is that it will be just as obsolete as the old vacuum-tube radio is now, AND there will be enthusiasts finding great satisfaction in reviving THAT ancient technology. I can also relate to your interest in the ancient vacuum-tube technology. My father (he's 92 now an still going strong) was an RCA-educated vacuum-tube technician, and I remember watching him assembling RCA course kits (vacuum-tube heterodyne receiver and oscilloscope etc.) in the late fifties. Surprisingly, many of the components are still available today, at a steep price. I have to disagree, however, about the long-term durability of the vacuum tubes - the cathode filament will inevitably burn out... One thing I am sure we old farts will agree on: "They don't make them like they used to". That goes for just about everything. We have e.g. an old 1957 PA-23-160 Tri-Pacer, still going strong. I'd like to see the state of e.g. a fancy new Cirrus composite aircraft after over 60 years of exposure to UV....

[@andrewsmactips]

I love the “legacy” version. I’ve always thought that a more textured and three dimensional depiction makes the display more obvious and less “what am I looking at here?”

[@daltondenun858]

I know nothing about aviation, don’t even have an interest in flying and honestly wouldn’t buy a plane if I had the money but for some reason I love watching this guy, he’s funny in such a relaxed way and has an assured confidence only usually found in 1970’s pimps. If he taught me science in school I’d have cured aids by now. Keep going man I love it!.

[@G3TSH1TD0N3]

FYI, both instruments have a center function for the attitude indicator so you can reset to center for tailwheel aircraft. You don't have to wait to turn on. Push both buttons simultaneously on the AV 20 and also on the AV 30 while in AI mode

[@LocalConArtist]

Just flew with the AV 30 today, remarkably simple and useful

[@corporalclegg914]

Thanks, Paul. you’re the Best at delivering info for us to Nerd-Out to, while keeping it Comedically Entertaining. Please Keep the Vids Coming our way.

[@ELMS]

So true about the MEGO factor. I prefer steam gauges for that reason. These look like a substantial improvement. Great video.

[@saxomojarf]

Seems like a cool little design!

[@FarmerTed]

Great job accessing new instruments

[@RustyCoon]

Been watching for more info on these! Thanks Paul. Great review.

[@richardseton7014]

Paul, love your posts. Great content.

[@garyggarner7738]

Love Your Videos! I’m learning new things!! Thanks so much!

[@blueskyaviationpilottraining]

Paul, great job. Would love your thoughts comparing this product to the G5.

[@skyviewireland8904]

2:57 Boeing got roasted😎

[@rkan2]

Yeah... Think about still having 60s technology measuring flight data on a plane introduced 50 yeara after.. Airbus does pretty much the same of course, but...

[@safetyinstructor]

@@rkan2 nah... Airbus is way more advanced in this area than Boeing

[@rkan2]

@@safetyinstructor The sensor are very much the same as they were in the 60s.. Other than that, an Airbus with it's FBW is 20 years ahead of a 737 Max.

[@axelBr1]

I work in the oil and gas industry, for some time all critical safety controls utilise 3 sensors and 2 out of 3 voting before taking action. Admittedly an refinery or chemical plant will make a much bigger bang when it all goes to shit, but generally kills a lot less people than a plane, when it does so. To me it's unbelievable that Boeing used a single sensor to activate a "safety" control. As I understand it there is a second sensor but Boeing didn't want to spend the money to add the cross check feature against it. And as the $500 indicator shows, (and I suspected) you can do angle of attack calculations in software.

[@lisajohnson8566]

Amazing equipment!! I will be installing this in my Cessna R172K for sure,

[@Mrcaffinebean]

Great design. You can tell they put a lot of thought into something that would be easy to read while also being compact.

[@gavinvales8928]

heh heh me pilot me illiterate. Seriously though, when it comes to user interfaces, software developers need to keep things simple. It should be easy to switch between analog instruments and digital instruments.

[@Mrcaffinebean]

@@gavinvales8928 why? Pick one and stick with it. Switching constantly is only going to cause you to get confused.

[@jonathanwelter]

I thank you for your sacrifices.

[@billstevens3796]

I haven't flown in 30 years but I *do* hang on your every word!

[@hamishkebb3550]

great report thanks Paul

[@cellokid5104]

Wow, these are awesome for the price and ease of use

[@navion1946]

Define Sardonic: Paul Bertorelli. I love it. BTW great video Paul. These are the exact products I’ve been wanting to know about.

[@MetHerInBaghdad]

Paul, your videos are the best. I watch every one, even stuff that will never apply to me. Just want to see what you have to say every time!

[@louigee1450]

This. Exactly this.

[@toufikzarouri5279]

Great video ! Thank you

[@imontime77]

Looks like great little gauges for the ones with small dash space.

[@C172Pilotdude]

This looks to be a potentially great avionics setup

[@tropicthndr]

Absolutely fantastic, love these new units that are self contained and use the aircraft systems already in the plane to get all the info they need. I would like to know what panels the race guys at Reno favor for lightweight accurate information. Anything that doesn’t add 150 extra lbs of stupid boxes to the plane like the G1000 stuff.

[@ferebeefamily]

Thank you for the video.

[@bobninemire6859]

Ohhhhhhh....Come on Paul.....We all know Cubs fly all day at 37 KTS :)

[@oliverdowney1248]

Paul, I trust your views. I doubt if anyone can BS you. Thanks for putting out thoughtful useful information Oliver

[@HungryGuyStories]

They look pretty, but I trust "steam gauges" better. Though I do like the feature of the AV-30 can switch the instrument it emulates, so if you have more than one in your panel and you lose one, you still have all your instruments even though you have to switch modes periodically.

[@tomster70]

Amazing price points!

[@Dupi17]

thx for the upload...!

[@kitfoxjunky]

Great video. Like the one you did on the BOM too. Got any videos showing transponder and mode s options for the homebuilt market?

[@stevenk6638]

Good video !

[@Funhog29]

Im flying with one now. Pretty useful.

[@orbitalair2103]

Small and lightweight, just whats needed for small, weight constrained LSAs.

[@messupfreq550]

just curious... will a steam port be available on future models?? Seriously though, this is a great idea at a great price for those day flying and looking out the window(s). I love tech, but to some extent with the all glass schema perhaps the best overall term for that class is "runway finders." Going IFR glass is hard to beat, having fun is enjoying the view. Had a Cessna 120 and thought at first geese, this doesn't even have flaps... until I learned to hard slip - I could make that plane drop like an elevator into any spot I wanted with no power but you needed to be looking out the window every blessed second. Thanks Paul for pursuing options.

[@wickedguitar99]

"Maybe Boeing could look into it for the MAX problem they have been having..." Shots fired.

[@tropicthndr]

Yea love that one. Also like anything that doesn’t add 150 extra lbs of NAV boxes like the G1000 stupidity.

[@karllautman]

Why does the AV-20 show a pitch down while the AV-30 shows level flight (see 0:27, e.g.)?

[@louigee1450]

More Right Rudder (my old flight instructors words still echo on my head)

[@Dg-zj6jo]

amazing AOA rules the door on the air craft is open ha is that experimental sir great vid as per

[@cpolt1192]

Hey Paul, is this the Cub that was built in Cromwell in a small Garage on a coldesac??? I did a tree for a guy who had re built a yellow cub with his son. Said it was the only yellow cub around....was wondering if this was the plane or maybe another one??

[@glennstubbs8232]

So In the Cub. How do you use you gadget while flying from the rear seat? I know my arms aren''t that long. 😀

[@AVweb]

It's mounted from the overhead tubes right over the top of the front seat. About 18 inches away, I guess. Typical jury rig. I sure don't leave it in there...

[@brentbeatty4171]

im hoping to attend Liberty Univ. for flying asap...I currently work for Cleveland Cliffs steel mill in Weirton WV....

[@flopofshame2582]

I bet that cub feels cool having a fighter jet on its gyro.

[@tyronealfonso]

I like the AV 30 but who would use this when a 7” Dynon SkyView SE is the same price?

[@otm646]

The Dyno "7 display is $1500, But you need at minimum another $1,200 for the ADAHRS.

[@MrWATCHthisWAY]

I would like to see a study done on what design instrument style the human brain comprehends easier during emergency / pilot saturation situations. How much display info on one instrument verses two or three. If scanning several instruments verses looking at just one. The mindset has become just having one is better but I have seen several accidents reports where information was displayed on their large display screens and missed it?? I personally like a few instruments to keep my eyes moving to change focus and thought process.

[@HairHelmet]

Familiarity and habit trumps ideal layout, the biggest danger is likely lack of experience in a particular aircraft and/or flying a little in many aircraft. It’s crucial for the well trained ‘second nature’ to kick in with a high stress event occurring. I like to have the information displayed efficiently with minimal scanning, or in predictable places.... in one 172 to another 172 or one Mooney to another you’ll have completely different layouts, every aircraft panel is unique. I’d also like to see a study as you suggest.

[@MrWATCHthisWAY]

Hair Helmet, I agree with your statement but I know when I flew for the military and they were going to glass cockpits they performed studies during aircraft instrumentation design (Human Factors) that adding to much information without adding oral tones for critical systems on the aircraft performance pilots were having trouble monitoring just a single screen. Like you mentioned this could have been due to experience and familiarity but they also found that focusing on a single instrument pilots would tighten up their peripheral vision which gave them problems when looking back outside the aircraft. This was on the P-3C & UH-60 Aircraft. They found large delays or lags in their identification of their surroundings. It may just be a learning curve but 2” screens could be harder to read in a critical situation. I have flown both types and to me each one has their advantages and disadvantages. I love the new designs and I believe they will allow incorporating greater, faster and less expensive safety systems on GA aircraft. Like preventing flap retraction as in a go-around situation when you attitude and airspeed are going to stall / spin your aircraft. That’s the one that I believe should be considered for GA aircraft especially for inexperienced pilots or us older pilots that just due something stupid at the wrong time. Aircraft systems permitting incorporation of course! The future does looks bright Mr. Helmet

[@HairHelmet]

@@MrWATCHthisWAY, very interesting. I'll use that information as we update my panel. A group of us are working to get a wrecked '62 Mooney back in the air in the next few weeks and removing/changing avionics as we go. The other driving factor for me is the danger of vacuum failure in IMC, multiple independently backed up systems being the goal. Your reply is much appreciated.

[@MrWATCHthisWAY]

Hair Helmet there also has to be some design considerations into additional busses being incorporated in GA aircraft. We seem to install everything on a single buss. Maybe a couple of runaround relays with battery power to primary flight instruments. I know this will drive up cost and complexity tremendously, but for GA aircraft with single generator operation this is something I feel I would want to design into m aircraft! No all I need is the FAA to buy in on this design. It will take someone smarter than me to develop this. Lol...

[@freakfly23]

Paul, put the gun away. Great video.

[@andrewgriffith2173]

I thought the IAS was really low! Have zero experience (flight/ground school), just enjoy aviation vids. Was googling piper specs because I was curious about rotation speed on take off

[@methosmomomax7470]

Non-STC... ok, now for all you Certified Aircraft out there, check out the New Garmin GI-275. It a STC/AML multi-instrument. Best of all it replaces your Engine monitoring units on MFD/PFD!

[@MrZrryan2]

Regarding the IAS error.... i'll bet you did NOT hook up a proper static line to a proper static port (remember folks, this is a pre-war CUB). Anyhow, these gadgets are VERY sensitive to static pressure and with the wind swirling around inside the cockpit, she would not indicate anywhere close to proper. OR.... or, you have a leaky pitot line connection.

[@stevekiss6277]

Paul- It is becoming increasingly important when doing a avionics review to give the status of the certified product as either additional or replacement. Those of us with certified aircraft steam gauges need to know if we can pull our vacuum pump or not. FAA approval is multilayered like an onion (shreck)..... Here is what I found on the website... bottom line many owner/pilots are looking to replace the gauge (AI/DG/HSI/clock?) when the unit dies. Do I rebuild my King/Narco/Collins/Borg/JimmyGyro when it dies or do I replace it. And if I yank those things... can I pull the vacuum pump? Here is the info on the AV20.... (from the website) "Important Note: NORSEE allows installation *in addition to* existing, required instruments in the cockpit. We are working guidance on how to potentially replace a legacy, analog clock which may be considered a required instrument in some aircraft. (GPS units often have a clock that meets FAR requirements.)"

[@MAGApepe]

kool,,, seems goofy that it has a DG mode instead of a compass mode

[@BonanzaPilot]

Great review on this! they really couldn't figure out how to get the DG to slave?

[@jrniendorf]

They're working on an add on remote compass. I actually like their approach. The base model is very inexpensive, and you can add on as your needs and budget dictate.

[@allanchong4772]

according to datasheet, it is "ready" for remote magnetometer that might be future product

[@aaronallgrunn7845]

Vertical speed and g loading should be switched. V/s goes with altitude and gload more with airspeed. Still cool.

[@kosys5338]

I was going to say, there is something wrong with his air speed. He had to be flying faster than 38 knots.

[@JustinJackson11]

When he showed the outside view, he was playing the video in reverse and showing the aircraft going backwards 😂

[@parochial2356]

Ignorant non-pilot question: On planes running full glass panel displays, what does a pilot do if and when the panels fully fail [go blank] ? Is there a set of "legacy" instruments in the panel to navigate by or is one simply forced to call mayday, invoke a deities blessing and fly blind?

[@Account4096]

On certified airplanes with fully electronic panels, there should either be a basic set of backup traditional steam gauges or another electronic instrument that uses an independent power source (usually an internal battery). The latest Cessna 172s with G1000 use a set of three analog gauges as backups whereas the latest Piper PA-28's use an Aspen EFD display with internal battery instead.

[@parochial2356]

@@Account4096 Thanks for the reply. I will look for the legacy gauges the next time I watch a vid demonstrating glass panel nav.

[@abdullahalshehri1793]

If they just switch the vs and and g load places

[@jsteiger2228]

9:23 - LOL!!!!!

[@hook86]

Haha right?

[@monsenrm]

Good stuff, J3 killing a mosquito with shotgun.

[@waqarsyed6641]

Paul

[@AyrSpeed]

Did anyone else check around when the audio alert played? Just me? ...okay

[@karlp8484]

I noticed almost immediately there was no way you were flying at 36Kts. That's a major concern to me that the instrument could be that faulty over a very important metric.

[@dale116dot7]

If I had to guess, perhaps powering it up while flying caused the IAS differential pressure sensor to self-calibrate incorrectly.

[@paulgush]

Given that it was "lashed up" for the demo, it's doubtful that it was calibrated for position error, or more significantly, leak checked

[@johnpro2847]

my plane has a 'glass panel' For ease of use I much prefer the old style instruments. The old instruments seem much better at ironing out all the small variations and give inaccurate trend of the situation. GPS is the obvious exception for pining for the past..

[@FISHH00KS]

@9:21 LoL

[@BlueBaron3339]

Not trying to troll you, Paul. I've been a long-time reader of AC and have read your articles for...well...a very long time. I've owned many airplanes over the years, one of them (Bellanca 14-19) complex/high-performance 4-place, but never had one with a nosewheel. No, it wasn't a crusade. I often land in unconventional places for which the conventional landing gear was made. Thus, I'd tell any manufacturer of a nosewheel only panel-mounted instrument to perform an impossible sexual act. 😂 🤣 And, before you think it, nope, never sold guns or drugs. 😉

[@UncleKennysPlace]

It isn't a "nosewheel only" instrument, and you cannot set the horizon of an old vacuum-powered attitude indicator with the tailwheel on the ground, anyway!

[@BlueBaron3339]

@@UncleKennysPlace You can, though it's more of an iffy proposition if you use venturi powered gyro instruments. But you have a point. In most situations - exc. departures with barely legal ceilings - that's exactly what you'd do unless you feel okay messing with instruments on the takeoff roll in a taildragger. But you're right - 6:58 - you could indeed use this latest gadget on conventional gear aircraft. I simply found the caveat amusing I must confess. Spent *years* as a video game developer making computer screens look like WWII flight instruments. When they made flight instruments computer screens my response was....ummm....not entirely rational. 😉 And this product is a step up from that certainly.

[@passthetunaporfavor]

FAA will delay these as long as possible. Just as they have with every other other safety improvement. Imagine that ? A gyro without a hideously unreliable vacuum system? For $ 500 and change.

[@Capt_Ron]

Awesome! (who are the 5 clowns that put a thumbs down)

[@MrZrryan2]

MAJOR malfunction --- you did not tell us that this thing is horribly inaccurate compared to a good gyro. AeroVonics own website (see the FAQ's) states that the DG feature precesses by about "5 degrees each half-hour"... (!!!!!) Holy crap, that's rediculous. I would throw my DG in the garbage immediately if it was HALF that bad.

[@Bartonovich52]

Uh... what? Remember, the word gyroscope literally means “earth viewer”. A fully gimballed one will “precess” 15 degrees every hour. Maybe you’ve got a slaved one or live in low latitudes. Here in Canada it’s common for DGs to precess 10 degrees an hour. Unlike an AI which uses gravity to self-erect in unaccelerated flight, a DG has no sense of direction. You have to set it to a compass or slave it to a flux valve. Even GPS is no good because it gives position and track, not heading unless it has gyro and air data.

[@MrZrryan2]

@@Bartonovich52 you are correct. Slaved.... my bad.

[@stanmarsh2599]

Where's your safety pilot while you're "head in the cockpit" for....how long? And can't see in front of you? A digital gauge that looks like a steam gauge? For what? A clock tells time, period.

[@diyfamily6848]

I wouldn't like to rely on a AoA meter that uses accelerometer information to work out AoA ? Remember Keep it simple stupid and don't be insane, use a vane, especially when you will be relying on it with your life !

[@p331083]

Why was this recommended to me? Im no pilot nor have I been looking at flight training related vids.

[@FatCokMcgee]

Not very responsive are they...? 🤔🤦🏼‍♂️

[@DanFrederiksen]

I'm all for affordable instruments but since display size doesn't cost anything in modern electronics they are quite foolishly hampering their own success by making these small instruments. Similarly, all legacy looks should be dealt with extremely aggressively to further the most rational display possible. Same as we see in cars, dials need to go away entirely. A digital clock is vastly superior to a dial clock, same is heading, speed etc best represented by just a number. Only for synthetic vision do you enter graphics. Because of how potent and cheap digital electronics is today there is tremendous potential for innovation in the semi bizarrely stagnant aviation market.

[@DanFrederiksen]

@@bitteroldman3151 It's not hard to see progression in a number and there could be an arrow showing direction. Although not necessary. You can imagine a stop watch with milliseconds. Doesn't matter how fast it is moving, it's easy to see the progression. Try to free yourself from stagnation. Don't be an unquestioning product of the past. The first cars were shaped like horsedrawn carriages, just without the horses. Exactly because they didn't question the past.

[@DanFrederiksen]

@@bitteroldman3151 Imagine this scenario, I'm a genius and unfettered progressive thinker. A brilliant digital watch is vastly easier to read. If you use a smart phone the clock is right there, nice calm clarity. If you have four numbers for engines it's easy to see if one is lower than the others. A dial can be a full circle behind the others. Never give up thinking.

[@TeamEnderman1337]

You're making it sound like the "legacy look" that some people prefer is actually harmful and needs to be eradicated for the health and safety of the public. This is not the case; people can and should be able to choose what aesthetic they want, and as long as people still like the "legacy look," manufacturers should keep making it. Additionally, most pilots learn on steam gauges, even today, and are most familiar with the look of those gauges. An instrument such as this combines some of the benefits of an electronic display with the familiar, and I must add, just as functional visuals of a standard vacuum-driven attitude indicator. The reason why the instrument is so small is so that it fits in an existing instrument panel that used to contain a vacuum gyro instrument with no modifications to the panel itself. They are not hampering their success by using small screens, they are catering their product towards people who use steam gauges and want an easy and affordable upgrade.

[@DanFrederiksen]

@@TeamEnderman1337 Just look at cluttered old cockpits vs clean glass. And it can be much cleaner still.

[@TeamEnderman1337]

@@DanFrederiksen What's your point? Sure, it might look cleaner when the panel is powered off, but most electronic flight instruments are just as, if not more cluttered than a regular panel when it comes to the act of actually using them. And again, you're operating on the assumption that having a "clean" panel is somehow superior.

[@waqarsyed6641]

Awesome video.... Boeing sucks Max stands for maximum casualties... and let's not forget dream liar