Accident Review Telluride S35 Bonanza

[@ZetaByteMe]

This was a great summary. A few tips. Unless your airplane is equipped with afterburners, NEVER turn toward rising terrain that tops out above your present altitude, and expect to clear it! Always approach ridges at an angle, and with enough lower terrain beside you, such that if you encounter a down draft approaching the ridge, you can turn away and escape. If you fly up a canyon, don't fly up the center. Instead, hug one side or the other, and never fly past the point where you lack the room for a 180 degree escape turn. Finally, if you have always done your pre-takeoff run-up with full rich mixture, and taken off the that way, DON'T do that at high altitudes. Learn how to lean the engine before taking off, unless you want to leave even more unavailable horsepower on the ground. This comes from a guy whose logbook started at age 10, in TVL California.

[@rudyramos5911]

Just read your comments..... incredibly useful ... I will take a lesson from them.. Best regards...Rudy

[@martinsaunders7925]

Thanks. The best lessons come from survivors teaching what should be done,not from the dead who,perhaps,teach what shouldn't.

[@colinwallace5286]

If you watch any video about float plane ops in Alaska, they repeat a lot of the points you listed. It would seem that experience in the mountains is the biggest factor, and the right attitude about performance limits of you and your aircraft might help keep you out of trouble.

[@wyoflyboy4675]

As a retired CFI who taught mountain flying in Colorado and flown in and out of Telluride many times, I wouldn't take a student anywhere near that type of terrain and DA without them first reading, studying and understanding Sparky Imeson's Mountain Flying Bible. What you describe is exactly how Sparky taught.

[@rinzler9775]

Yes, mixture leaning and even prop feathering settings (if you have them) is a balanced science at those altitudes. Down on the flats you can get away with just shove everything forward. The other killer is downdrafts over the mountains - we got caught in one and dam near went in.

[@GreatDataVideos]

So sad! Once you said that they got full fuel, I knew that was the first big mistake. The first time I flew in the mountains, I went with an instructor. We were filling up and he stopped me, and we went over the performance specs to see exactly how much fuel we could take on. Fortunately, we didn't get full fuel, and even with a turbo-charged plane in the Smokies, we cleared the trees, but not by much. Lesson learned. You did a great job of compassionately (and not judgmentally) reviewing this accident for us to learn by.

[@seriouscat2231]

Please confirm this. You're saying that a turbo will not cancel out the effects of altitude? Or does it depend on the engine? Where can I learn more about this?

[@GreatDataVideos]

@@seriouscat2231 The turbo is a tremendous help on takeoff, but the runway wasn't very long and there were trees at the end of the runway. Never trust the performance specs. They are created in absolutely optimal situations with a test pilot, so give yourself some leeway.

[@ben-n-stephflyingcircus8281]

“Always leave yourself an out”. No truer words to live and fly by. Thanks Scott!

[@richardweiner6405]

And “don’t do anything dumb, different or dangerous”

[@wagonmaster1974]

I flew a V35B for a number of years, amassed about 300 hours. In and out of TEX one time, in May. There is not the remotest chance I'd head East up that canyon. Sorry for the newlywed couple's demise. Thank you, Scott, for your blow-by-blow. Hope it makes an impression on pilots who think the mountains are easy to conquer. They are not. They will reach up and smite you in the twinkle of a heartbeat, if you are not 100% on target.

[@lesterreed9670]

After flying the Rockies for over 20 years in piston singles, you never never never fly up a narrowing valley with rising terrain!!!

[@naturalverities]

I'm not a pilot but I get it---with chills. Call it controlled flight into an inescapable terrain trap. Past that threshold, visible only to the experienced or exceptionally aware, the only options are to land, crash land, or pile it in.

[@robertlafnear4865]

"Never up a canyon with rising terrain"..........That rings so true, when I was a student with about 35 hrs. I did a cross country ( '78 ) I found myself doing just that..... Clear sky's, no winds and the ground coming up kinda fast ( Riverside , CA area)............ I had room and did a quick U-TURN.... and spent the rest of the day thinking about what just occurred.... not a big thing 'cause the "mountains" were not the rockies at all but they made me think a lot.

[@cageordie]

Well, maybe once...

[@Erik-rp1hi]

Is that what got Steve Fossit?

[@fritz4345]

@@Erik-rp1hi I think so. Hot day in high terrain at the end of a valley.

[@discobones]

That's my friend... Costas. We went to college together. May they both rest in peace.

[@soaringdan]

Right on Scott! Your analysis is perfect and I agree with your speculation on what happened. This accident was personal for me in that the bride was a Flight Attendant classmate of my daughter and son-in-law. I was there for her graduation. The pilot was a new hire at my airline and based in EWR. I didn't know him. We fly from Tulsa to Pagosa Springs often in our Turbo 210, which I bought for that mission. It has a service ceiling of 28,500', but I still don't try to outclimb the mountains. No sensible person would. You must be 1,000' to 2,000' (depending on wind and groundspeed) above the ridgeline 3-5 miles before approaching it. Density altitude and mountain flying needs to be better understood by pilots who want to engage in it. This is a sad commentary of what happens when you don't.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thank you Dan!

[@blueskyliao8480]

I am learning a lot by watching this video AND reading the comments.

[@ULTRAMAGADEPLORABLEcultmember]

Amazing that the NTSB actually showed up!

[@ss442es]

Absolutely right. I learned to fly in Northern California and one technique was take off and circle the airport in a climbing turn until you can see over the obstacle then level off. If your airplane can't climb high enough, land and wait for better DA and or less weight or rent a car. Also, flying in mountains can really fool your situational awareness. I found myself very slowly climbing going up a canyon because it felt like I needed to keep climbing but airspeed began to imperceptibly bleed off. At that second I realized what was happening I leveled off and did a 180 before we ran out of room to turn around. Really sad about the wreck but many thanks for the helpful information.

[@baomao7243]

Ed Sunderland I recall having a terrible climb rate out of Lampson (1O2 in N.Cal.) piloting a gutless Cessna toward Ukiah. Altitude not remotely close to Telluride but DA was a factor for me given it was so toasty. Instantly knew we should just circle/climb. But I knew we had the maneuvering space (ie definitely not flying canyons along rising terrain). Canyons and mountain ridges are often beautiful but frequently are accompanied with the song of Sirens...

[@billroberts9182]

I've noticed while flying within mtns/canyons it is very easy to mismanage your energy because you no longer have a horizon to fixate on. It is very easy to climb when you don't intend to. Using your instruments (altimeter, artificial horizon and airspeed) is very important to manage your energy state! And always fly down a canyon, not up unless you already have enough altitude to clear any obstacle.

[@nwbackcountry5327]

Leaving early in the morning never hurts.

[@thomashughes_teh]

I'm not a pilot but I've hiked and biked weeks long trips trips in mountains. Sense of scale and distance can be influenced by differing average sizes of rocks and trees. Visual awareness of climb\descent can be obfuscated by optical illusion of lines in terrain . I didn't know mountain flying was an optional skill set until this video. I thought all pilots had to get trained in it. A few hundred miles of mountain cycling and hiking is an experience that could be very beneficial to understanding the character of mountain conditions.

[@steveperreira5850]

In this crash, climbs at just above stall then banks to turn without first increasing speed, guaranteed stall. No pilot, especially an instructor, should execute this get out of canyon turn wrong. Always need to think about safe speeds for maneuvers. ... means EXTRA speed!

[@alainduncan3756]

Thank you for this, Scott. I'm heading out there with the family this winter. I wasn't even going to consider an eastbound departure from that airport. Even in a turbocharged twin I was planning on following the valley westbound until well-above 14,000 feet. I can't imagine making the decision to attempt out-climbing those mountains. It gives me chills just thinking about it.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks.. me too!

[@jadesluv]

Some years ago I visited Telluride by car and drove above the airport one evening and looked down at the runway, being a low time pilot it looked very scary and it too gave me chills.

[@paulsccna2964]

As a young student, in a class, an instructor, advice was simple, but important, "Always look for a way out." Before. And while moving. In other words, always be thinking one step ahead or more. This applied to driving a car, a boat, a motorcycle or a plane.

[@lalehbryanskrenes5692]

Had a friend who was a professional pilots say he was constantly looking for several emergency landing spots when piloting. He has never crashed a plane!

[@robertking8578]

I’m not a pilot and likely never will be. But I find these videos very informative and helpful in learning just what’s involved in becoming one, and then perfecting those skills to expand your knowledge. It’s incredible learning everything from how to cross those mountain passes, to flying in different weather conditions, or even through mechanical failures. Thanks so much for you, and anyone who puts these videos out. Evan someone like me who is just curious about flying all types of plains can really gain a wealth of knowledge from your expertise.

[@angiecolonna2913]

Costas was my first real relationship and I think about him and what happened to them every single day. I've flown with him before and knew firsthand how passionate, knowledgable and careful he was. We can all try to be perfect and prepared but sometimes life happens, unfair and sudden. That's the thing about tragedies =( Regardless, thank you for all the information from what you've gathered. I hope it can save someones life. I haven't been able to stop wondering what happened up there, but don't think it will ever take the pain away regardless what is found.

[@joannazietara770]

❤️❤️❤️

[@DMS20231]

That’s grace right there.

[@pamshewan9181]

😔

[@Manitou36]

I live in Grand Rapids Michigan and I randomly came across this plane crash on you tube and I did not know anything about it and then I heard that the girl was from Grand Rapids Michigan and I wondered if anybody knew this family in the Grand Rapids area and boy what a small world, my girlfriend started a new job about two months ago and she realized she actually works with Lindsey‘s mom, such a sad story, my thoughts and prayers go out to everybody involved 😞🙏

[@tycotoys]

Does that he cheated on you behind your back ?

[@RMR1]

The best aviation analysis channel on YT. Not the flashiest. Just the best.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks! To be honest I don't do flashy very well.

[@RMR1]

@@FlyWirescottperdue That's a good thing, trust me! Flashy is usually cheap, superfluous or distracting -- and often all three.

[@paulgooding803]

Former GA Commercial and CFI ... a desert rat and have done considerable mountain flying. This video is gold. I knew about the incident before I saw the video and had a pretty good idea what happened, but got to the level of detail that really brought it to life. Just listening, I got chills and honestly very upset, I was right there in the airplane with this guy and I know what he must have experienced in those godawful last minutes. Great job on the incident review and the good advice to pilots no matter their level of experience. Subscribing and glad I found this resource.

[@paulgooding803]

Just one question, what do you think is the significance of possible hypoxia effects in this scenario?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Paul!

[@WoutervanTiel]

Very sad indeed, I heard he was a solid pilot, well educated, very conscientious. For some reason he chose this flight path and one of the things I have to surmise is that possibly there was some get-there-itis involved. Just going West a few miles would have provided the necessary altitude. I have flown as a passenger in GA in this area. West North West is the only way out to a lower altitude area near this airport. It would have taken an extra 10 minutes tops. It never pays to be in a hurry. May they rest in peace. Thank you Scott for the educational video, it is greatly appreciated.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thank you Wouter!

[@JakeC2975]

I had the privilege of seeing the pilot when he came to Riddle for our commencement speech and I certainly pray for all affected from their crash.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

It is a tragedy!

[@mppetrikas4919]

Costas was super nice and easy to talk to. I met him at a job fair in 2014. He was very courteous to me and we chatted for a long time. Very sad.

[@callanjay]

Two weeks before this tragedy happened, my wife and I drove to Telluride as a day side trip from a vacation we were on. We took the free gondola up to where you can look over to the airport. The only thing that went through my mind is nope , I'm never messing with that one.

[@robertdryden1002]

I was a charter pilot for 3 years out of Santa Fe NM, and have operated in/out of many challenging airports in the Rockies including Telluride. It is very difficult to determine the real horizon when flying toward rising terrain. If you are carefully monitoring your instruments (especially airspeed) you would know whether you've got the nose too high. And that's very apparent in flatland country. But when the pucker factor is high and you're trying to top that ridge in front of you, you're probably narrowly focused on the mountains in front of you and they are no indication of where the actual hozison lies. Just one of several differences flying in the mountains.

[@billeudy8481]

My wife and I flew into Angel Fire New Mexico from our home airport in Oklahoma City with another couple. The pilot was a close friend and business associate and we were traveling to the mountains in his normally-aspirated Bellanca Viking. The trip was planned so we could take a mountain flying course and the organizers had sent us information on how to get into the airport safely. Unfortunately, after we had all arranged to take a week’s vacation time, rented a condo and a car the course was canceled due to a lower-than-expected number of registrants. We decided to make the trip anyway but instead of taking the class and flying with an experienced instructor we traveled the local area and enjoyed the sites around the Red River, Angel Fire, and Taos area. My friend studied the terrain coming in and realized getting out would be much harder. He carefully planned our departure calculating our weight , the density altitude, our fuel load center of gravity and what he believed to be the most advantageous flight path for our departure. We made it out of the box canyon where the airport is located but with only a couple of hundred feet between us and the trees on ridge line. Everything went as planned but I was amazed by how the airplane I had flown so many times with my friend was transformed from an eagerly climbing “homesick Angel” into a struggling beast by an extra 10,000 feet of altitude two extra people and baggage on a summer’s day. Had he not taken time to make such a careful plan we would have quickly fallen into some really serious trouble.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks for sharing your story Bill!

[@ianschutt6242]

“Don’t do anything dumb, different or dangerous.”...sage advice for sure!... thanks for taking the time helping to explain the predicament the pilot unfortunately ended up in.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Ian... words to live by;)

[@kerilynnnation820]

Costas was a friend of mine. Still so unbelievable. Thank you for this information.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I'm sorry for your loss. Email me off my website if you like.

[@the_appointed1142]

Lindsay was my cousin, very sad

[@kerilynnnation820]

@@the_appointed1142 I am so so sorry. Sending you love!

[@manfredseidler1531]

My dad was a commercial pilot who transitioned into the Civil Air Patrol after his age and health took him out of his seat. His new talent was as an observer and teaching safety. I was shocked to learn how many wrecks there were in Southern California alone. Turns out safety and hand grenades have something in common... got to get it right to stay alive. Thanks for sharing, may their mistakes keep us from doing the same.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Manfred!

[@jamesmitchell7208]

Thanks Scott.......22 year F-16 pilot and retired United Captain.........i just purchased my first GA.......An A-36 Turbo normalized......home field is at Glendale Az but summer home is at GNB Granby Colorado....8300’ elevation 5k’ long runway..........lots to learn and enjoy watching your videos... Rusty Mitchell

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

James- I won't hold the Viper against you;) Have fun in the A36TN, maybe we'll get to meet up one day!

[@precisionc3656]

Great video, thank you for taking time to make that. As a pilot I’m always trying to educate myself about other peoples mishaps so I think before and as I fly.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Julian.

[@tscott6843]

Very well done as usual. No holds barred reviews are critical in aviation. Thank you for sparing no words.

[@mikewings]

I knew the couple through some airline friends and hope we can learn from this tragic accident. Your review was excellent..

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I appreciate it Mike!

[@V1AbortV2]

Costas was a scumbag. Plain and simple.

[@scottsmith7051]

Learning about downdrafts on the lee side of a mountain can never prepare you for FEELING one. The power is shocking. Training with an experienced mountain instructor is better than gold prior to going mountain flying. Love the analysis Scott and I'm a new sub. As one commenter below suggested, putting afterburners on your GA airplane would help with the lee side downdrafts if you plan on flying directly at the elevation. So sorry about the tragedy, prayers for everyone affected. 🙏🏾

[@Nbolanos0624]

scott keep cooking this great stuff. im a bo driver myself and i really appreciate you taking the time to educate us.

[@outwiththem]

Body Odor Driver??

[@sonnyburnett8725]

Really like your review Scott, lots of common sense logic and explanations. You remind me of the old generation of FAA guys who were so enjoyable to fly with, calm and friendly. Compared with so many today that are too young to even be there. Mountains can humble even a jet in no time and hope pilots always respect that. Thanks

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Sonny, I appreciate it!

[@MorganBrown]

enjoyed this video, Scott. First time I have heard your commentary, and I think it's great!

[@78XT500]

Subbed and liked. One of the rare videos that introduce the essential topic of energy management for GA pilots.

[@patrickfreeman8257]

I did like this video. And I appreciate it whenever you define acronyms and other terms that non-pilots might not be familiar with. My brother-in-law did some flying in Utah and he had told me about the crashes from pilots who flew into canyons then ran out of room too quickly.

[@FISHH00KS]

Wow! Scott - you've got a way about you to debrief in a. way that is logical, easy to follow, and complete. Thank you.

[@stevenpurcell4285]

Been flying the Rocky Mountains over 48 years safely out of the Front Range. Many flights were CAP Sorties for missing aircraft west of Denver. The real HOT spots for climbing out accidents are KLXV, KASA, KTEX, and KSBS. For Aspen and Telluride it's always fly down the canyon climbing as terrain lowers. Then once at a safe altitude you can turn in almost any direction. At KASA you fly down the valley following the highway and the river. At KTEX you fly the highway till at of the canyon and you can east toward Denver or left to Cortez and start fly flying west or Southeast. Flying up canyons at KASE and KTEX have caused many fatal accidents over the years. el

[@shermananderson700]

Thank youScott. Your descriptions are clear and diction clear. The knowledge you, Juan Browne and Dan Gruyder present help me in my operation of a 46’ articulated aerial manlift (MEWP) in tree service work. Our safety factors differ a lot but the common chord is gravity rules. Season’s greetings.

[@JamesWilliams-en3os]

Great breakdown, Scott, and thanks. I am planning to do some flying up into CO and NM next year. I have read far too many reports of general aviation flights in the Rockies resulting in CFIT, and as a consequence have already looked into taking a Mountain Flight school in the spring, before I take on those high hills.

[@moonshiner5412]

Definitely take the Mountain course. I fly in Colorado Springs and our elevation on the ramp is 6182 feet. In the summer we can have DA of 10,000. I fly out of the military aero club and we have the old USAFA 172's with 210 hp engines.We can't fly west of I25 until we have taken the course given by the club. 1 hour ground (at least) and a 2 hour flight with an instructor usually into KLXV. I flew into Leadville which is 9934 ft. Did it early morning in June. Ground speed was computed to 90 mph at 75 mph airspeed. Looked outside and thought wow that sure looks faster than 75! Take the course!

[@trumpsmessage7777]

Even better, just don't fly into such terrain period!

[@paulsuprono7225]

@@trumpsmessage7777 Now THAT, is logical ! 😄

[@volstaff4455]

Amazing English and great communication with great wisdom!

[@regionalflyer]

Sad... I fly into Telluride quite frequently. For a small plane it's not necessarily one way in, one way out. But to takeoff on 27 and then turn into the box canyon is beyond mind boggling.

[@rael5469]

R.F. Why should he have known not to do that? Honest question.

[@malakov5]

@@rael5469 the sectional shows the altitude of the terrain. He should have realized high DA flying will have an adverse effect on his aspirated engine. Hell not get normal climb rate at this DA. He turned eastward too soon given the DA

[@rael5469]

@@malakov5 Thanks for the info Malakov.

[@jeralddunn3782]

Very thorough and insightful. I agree with everything you said. I'm a former airline pilot, retired now, and I have a lot of time and little airplanes and flight instructing. I appreciate this video very much and I hope it saves lives. Thank you

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thank you Jerald!

[@zalix512]

My Dad was a Naval Aviator, his best friend and his kids died when they crashed into Mount Shasta. Very sad. Another plane he was a partner in crashed losing all onboard. This was my childhood. Knowing why is important to everyone, or should be.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

It happens, always keep learning, stay humble and stay in the fight!

[@invictus3598]

An experienced pilot's casual analysis of a tragic accident. The mountains are particularly unforgiving of poor decisions. Thank you!

[@kevinbatz9048]

I knew the accident pilot personally. No, we weren’t close and I only knew him for a short time but he was one of the greatest people I’ve ever known. When you talked to him, he always made YOU feel like a rockstar even though he was the one living this dream life (working at UAL at such a young age, getting married, etc.) You could tell he was raised right. He was extremely kind and gave back to the people and organizations that helped him develop (many in Embry-Riddle including the ALPA Airline Career Education club, which he founded). Not a day goes by that couldn’t use a guy like him. Folks, we’ve GOT to do better in the GA world. Be careful. Plan the flight path considering aircraft performance and other hazards, then execute on it. Always have an out, a way that you could get out of a sticky situation, especially regarding mountain flying! Goodbye Costas. You didn’t deserve to go like this or so soon but I hope to carry on what you represented, both professionally and personally

[@dannyaoalsson]

This guy was the worst pilot imaginable, every decision doomed him and his pretty bride to a smashride. Effing around in the mountains at 12,000 feet flying into a box canyon. STUUUPIDDD. Thank the good Lord they didn't have time to pass on those defective genes. Darwin Society

[@josephsener420]

Another great video. I am a flatlander who flew to Colorado for a high mountain flying course. Having done that I would not go back without another instructor with me. It was very challenging and I learned/relearned stuff that just doesn’t matter at airport elevation of 888’. When we came home, my son and I put together a 2hour presentation at our flight school because I recognize that some people may do that flight because they can. Sure enough there was one pilot in the audience who, at no surprise to anyone in the room, had done that. Just picked and flew to Leadville, CO. My Dakota (235 hp) taking off from Leadville, spent eight minutes reversing course and climbed about 1000’. We had less about 40 gallons of fuel and three souls on board but the IDA was 13600’. I learned to lean for max power before each take off.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Great story! Gotta lean for best power for DA!

[@madelinescafe8573]

Good job analyzing this accident! Learned a lot.

[@tombowers2020]

Very good instruction. I could listen to this instructor all day!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Wow, thank you!

[@vikramgupta2326]

The description of the escape maneuver required reminded me of an analogy of trying to avoid crossing the event horizon of a black hole.

[@wicked1172]

Thank you for giving us this assessment. This gives me a whole new understanding of this accident. For a long time I was under the impression that this accident was CFIT.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I thought so too, before I looked into it.

[@CalicoJackxx]

BZ, thanks for an excellent report, with sensitivity and compassion but stressing the mistakes

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@richardweiner6405]

I speak Navy and a bit of Air Force - to translate, BZ/Bravo Zulu = well done, nice job, congrats

[@richardweiner6405]

😆

[@cdalton3169]

Awesome commentary! You’re a wise pilot... and it shows in your words! Great content!

[@benwu7]

We were just discussing among my local pilot friends how to fly from Bay Area to Vegas. There are people fly direct through Sierras and there are people fly a less risky but longer route through SoCal. The pass at Sierra you cross is called Kearsarge Pass. A lot of pilots have been killed there. It was even removed from the sectional chart recently because it is too easy to get into a deadly canyon with terrain at 14000 to 15000. I have done it once but oh boy it is scary. You can’t make a wrong turn. Mountain flying is no joke.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Ben- I've flown from north of Sacramento to Vegas and chickened out from the idea of flying over the Sierras and went down the valley and cut east.

[@lalehbryanskrenes5692]

You also can get caught in very bad weather and windsheer there - unpredictable and often present! Betting with your one life!

[@johnemerson1363]

Many years ago I used to fly air search over the Sierra's for Civil air Patrol. Most of the downed aircraft are still missing. We almost never found them because those mountains are as nasty as they come.

[@CyberSystemOverload]

That sounds terrifying just reading it. Going to check out in MSFS.. Be safe up there - take the SoCal route! During my travels in Asia I saw a road sign in India that said "Travel safe. Someone is waiting for you."

[@TheBandit7613]

@@johnemerson1363 I spend all my free time wandering around Nevada in a Jeep. Nevada has wreckage all over the place, literally.

[@manfredseidler1531]

I forgot to mention according to my dad, the majority of private plane crashes were contributed to pilot error and not mechanical related. He also felt it was usually more than just one decision but a combination of multiple factors. I loved the titles of his safety lectures... one that stands out was 'How trees break speed" :) Because of folks like you, aviation is as safe as it is. Thanks for all the hard work you put in behind the scenes, very much appreciated.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Manfred!

[@StevenLeoKorell]

Almost felt like I was talking with ya. I literally talked at my phone as I remembered some recent mistakes I made, and although it's nice to hear I'm not the only one, I won't be repeating them.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Steven!

[@timcargile1562]

Thank You for creating and uploading this very informative and useful and sensitive (to the tragedy of this accident) video.

[@DanLohmar]

Thank you for the excellent debrief, Scott. You have helped us all learn from this accident. A tragic loss for the United Pilots community. Nickel on the Grass.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Dan, I appreciate it!

[@carlhopkinson]

Excellent video. Your analysis very instructive. Subscribed.

[@H1Galactica]

Sad event. I don't fly, but it interests me. Thank you for your service sir and this wealth of knowledge 👍🏽

[@MrSixstring2k]

While i am still learning to fly one thing i have learned is that you never stop learning and I appreciate these discussions so that we don’t make the same mistakes our selves. Pilot decision making is very important skill to learn and improve upon.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Absolutely MrSix!

[@simonwiltshire7089]

Great video and lesson thank you. A sad end and a lesson that even experienced pilots can get themselves into a situation they cant get out of.

[@fj9460-lr]

Thank you for your insight on this unfortunate and avoidable crash; and a special thanks for your military service!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thank you Frank!

[@Saltlick11]

Excellent review, among the best out there.

[@kevinbrennan8794]

This is the first of your videos I have watched. I enjoyed your presentation style and the way you share your avaition knowledge. Thank you.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Kevin!

[@kevinbrennan8794]

@@FlyWirescottperdue Juan Brown send me over to your channel. Good job guys.

[@N8844H]

"Circle the field until you can clear the surrounding terrain."

[@Jacmac1]

If this is legal, it sounds like the best option, always.

[@mikeryan6277]

@@Jacmac1 totally legal.

[@w5cdt]

Been there done that. My plan before takeoff.

[@ccasche5088]

I’m a flat lander but that is standard fare in the 8083 handbook.

[@joncarr2222]

Flown out of TEX many times in a turbo CE210. I always fly to the west then north over decreasing terrain following the valley out then turn east once you clear terrain of the Dallas divide.

[@donc9751]

I'm not a pilot, took lessons many years ago because I wanted to fly but it wasnt in the cards. I still love aviation. I also really like the information you put out and the respectful way in which you do it! Because sadly, people pay dearly for the mistakes they make when flying, especially in situations such as this. Liked and subscribed! Thank you for your service Sir!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Don!

[@fly4fun141]

Two comments: years ago I flew hang gliders at Telluride. It's beautiful there! Second, I live in IA and fly my 1976 Archer, been to CO a few times, took the Mountain Flying Training from the Colorado Pilots Association - twice. Going into the mountains with an instructor in my Archer gave me a level of knowledge and experience that is (in my opinion) absolutely essential for anyone that plans to visit the majesty of Colorado's mountains. Another very well done video!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Fly!

[@calpilot7]

Great video. Solid analysis and super delivery. Pleasure to watch your video and listen to your analysis. Great job.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Much appreciated!

[@jag524]

Good briefing, summary of things we need to be reminded of.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Jag

[@nickclark9240]

Hey Gunny! Great to see you here. Your channel has the best and most concise information. The graphics are amazing too. Best of luck, Nick!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thank you Nick, I appreciate it!

[@danielgoodson703]

Flew Cessna 340s with RAM out of TEX. There was a 60' difference between the ends of the runway and the middle.... Pretty sporty. Regularly made my passengers and/or cargo drive to Montrose and repositioned the aircraft down there. Many grumpy faces, but they all are still alive to complain about me. No good deed goes unpunished.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Good decisions!

[@MichielHeynekamp]

Ditto here. Flew a Ram IV 340 in and out of TEX plenty of time. I always flew the approach and departure procedure because then there is a standard to go by and it is obvious if you are departing that standard. Also flying 100 lbs less than gross improves performance hugely. This accident is layer after layer of poor choices. Very, very sad! :'(

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

@@MichielHeynekamp Thanks for sharing Michael!

[@danielgoodson703]

@@MichielHeynekamp Watched a Cessna 320 lift out of there before the dip years ago. Sucked the gear and almost drove it into the uphill side of the runway.... The aircraft left my view.... was sure he ended up in Sawpit. He did not.... Whew,

[@denekaraus8592]

340's are one of those "questionable" aircraft, seemingly always promising more performance than they really had. Good judgement on your part, sir!

[@flyonbyya]

Great explanation. With the vast amount of real-time data readily available via digital telemetrics. The task of discovery has been made infinitely more solvable and provable. Amazing Indeed !

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Much easier nowadays!

[@joeg5414]

I live pretty close to this near Durango CO. Sad story. I obsess over these accident reviews. Hopefully one day it'll make me a better pilot when I can finally afford it.

[@philipfreeman72]

You are my new fav. air crash guy .

[@granitepeakaviation908]

I'm student pilot in montana flying around large mountain ranges. Very humbling

[@Dr.DeHicks]

Incredibly helpful video. Thanks for taking the time to create these.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Glad you like them!

[@paleoman8854]

you delivered a very informative synopsis of this accident. As a non flyer, this was easily understood by someone with a very strong background in science. Kind of reminds me of JFK jrs acc ident, over confidence on behalf of the pilot. Such a senseless tradegy. RIP to all.

[@TheDriveInGuys]

Sadly, the guy can't spell.

[@johnd1727]

Congratulations on your "very strong background in science". I suspect you are being over-modest.

[@richardadams9470]

Mountain flying is very challenging, especially for those of us from the flatlands. I am a New England pilot as well, who enjoys flying into the mountains of New Hampshire. I have noticed that even in relatively calm weather you can get yourself into a situation that you had better make perfect decisions in order to get through, especially in a non-high performance or non-turbocharged airplane. Even in light winds the downdraft on the leeward side of even a small mountain can not only prevent your aircraft from climbing but also force it into a descent. Always leave yourself an out. It will save your life.

[@truckpilotnate2972]

Telling for such an experienced pilot to say he’d get some instruction before flying in the mountains.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

It was a shame.

[@tyler.donati]

Yes, aviation requires as much humility as skill.

[@12345directioner]

Just found your channel and really enjoyed your analysis. My Dad was an AF Pilot. He flew the F4 and F15. Sadly, I could not become a pilot as I have no depth perception, but still love watching channels like yours. Glad I found your channel!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Welcome aboard!

[@rogerseelbach5330]

Thank you for the explanation sir. It all makes perfect sense now.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thank you Roger!

[@davidcousins3508]

An informative presentation on this tragic accident.

[@ashokaliserilthamarakshan5079]

Very well said. I've learnt something

[@onethousandtwonortheast8848]

You are my favorite presenter.

[@larrysears152]

I flew into and out of Telluride this past winter and departed to the southeast down the large valley toward Durango. I am also a flatlander from Texas but had an expert Mountain flying instructor in my Bonanza A36 with me. We also planned to take off with less than full tanks and still had a long takeoff roll and slow climb. And that in cool morning winter air. I thought you said the pilot filled up his tanks before departing which might have contributed to his problem. Another solution for him might have been to fly to Durango or Pagosa Springs and fill up there. Great Video!!

[@TheBlkpilot]

Very informative and accurate. DA is is mentioned on almost every Awos and ATIS and it there for a reason. My condolences to the families of that Couple.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Russell!

[@CAPFlyer]

Thank you for this excellent video Scott. I was fortunate enough to get to fly for a while in Colorado and learn a ton about flying in the mountains. One of the things that my instructor taught me early on was that when going into airports like Aspen, Telluride, and others where it's mostly "one way in, one way out" with significant terrain, one of the first things you do is to make points where you are going to cross-check your altitude in the climb to verify that you are getting sufficient performance to clear the terrain along your planned path. If you didn't make that altitude, then you turned around and headed back or took your alternate routing that gave you more space to climb in. We never went up a pass or box canyon unless we had already verified that our performance was sufficient to clear the highest point prior to entering that confined area well before we got into it. Resulted in us going a long way around on a couple of days to get back home from the mountains, but I never once got nervous about our climb performance not being what we wanted because I always had a clear plan to follow.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thank you Chris- excellent comment!

[@mikemaloney5830]

Clearing isn’t enough, add 2000’ for downdrafts. You must be clear plus 2000’ five miles before the terrain.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

@@mikemaloney5830 You are absolutely right!

[@CAPFlyer]

@@mikemaloney5830 sorry, yes I was using clear in a general sense, but for us "clear" meant 2500 feet from the required terrain in the 172 and 2000 feet in the 182 or Turbo 182. In reality, the definition of "clear" can and should change depending on your airplane and its performance margins at those altitudes. Lower performance airplanes should be given a higher margin. I agree that 2000 is probably a good "minimum" margin though. We also didn't use "5 miles from the terrain". We used "over this point, selected in advance and known to both of us". That point might be 5 miles, but it also might be 30 miles. It depends on what the situation was and where our "outs" were. If we needed to decide if we were going to make our altitude 5 miles after departure but 30 miles before the pass because of emergency landing considerations, we'd use a point much further out. I'd rather turn around or go into a hold in an open area to climb than get halfway up a pass and suddenly lose performance with only a few ways out.

[@mattmulder9410]

Great video Scott!!! You sharing your thoughts and knowledge is helping save lives. To you it may be uploading new great content and having fun and to all the great pilots out there the information is helping the aviation industry. It is such great information and the content is spectacular. Thanks Scott for helping keep accidents to a minimum and we need a "tip" jar for helping keep our rates down and families safer my friend!! Hi from Michigan

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Michigan, thank you so much! There is a tip jar BTW, checkout my Patreon.com/flywire I appreciate you watching!

[@tpbh46]

Another great one Scott. Thanks!

[@hughscot]

I've never flown in mountainous terrain and I don't think I ever will without taking a mountain flying course.

[@ADVTelluride]

I live in Telluride and am a pilot. I live under the base leg of 27 at TEX and was out walking my pups that day when I saw these poor folks fly over. Sad end to their story.

[@Jlemasterx]

Have you ever seen anybody takeoff that direction?

[@ADVTelluride]

Sure, but have never seen a GA aircraft fly up the box canyon like that. I’ve seen a P-51 do it during our 4th of July parade but there’s a slight performance delta.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

And the Mustang is supercharged!

[@hunterm9]

I live right over the mountains, it was awful to hear about it. Always brings it close to home.

[@masonlovesroblox]

I’m so jealous where you live (excluding all the damn DemocRATS).

[@ryanedwards7741]

Thanks for your insight. I was In Telluride a couple weeks before them with my Son on a backcountry Fly/Biking trip. I have been waiting on your review as i feel especially close to this one.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Ryan, thanks. Sorry it took so long.

[@astral9872]

I've flown out of Telluride in my Comanche 250 with the winds from the east, DA was 10,700. Wind shear at 250agl was not fun, and having to turn around in the valley to exit to the west was not fun. There is no freaking way I'd climb into the valley to the east in a NA piston trying to clear those ridges. It might or might not be possible depending on the day, but having been there in a similar performance aircraft as this S35 at a similar DA, it's not something I'd even have considered remotely safe. This is my opinion, but I am based in the southwest where mountain flying is an every day thing, and I usually tend to be more comfortable in higher DA, in mountain terrain, than pilots from the flatter parts of the country.

[@ToddLuvsGolf]

You’re right 100% Dustin. My last plane was a Turbo Arrow III. It was only 200HP, but that turbo made a huge difference climbing out at altitude.

[@paulsuprono7225]

Them ridges would be a 'kiss of death,' if you couldn't rise, above them ! 😬

[@stoneskipper7625]

Thank you Mr. Perdue.

[@CC-te5zf]

It's been a while since I've heard the "3 D's." Colonel "Doc" Parker taught us that. Great run down. Wish they could've made the turn - they just got married. God bless them.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Me too! Thanks for watching!

[@Mindstorm1997]

Me and my wife were just talking about mountain flying while we consider moving from Alabama to Denver or Salt Lake City. We really appreciate your experience distilled into these videos!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Truth be told l love the mountains. I think you’ll like it!

[@theafterburnnerbreneman1724]

Well maybe I can add something here. I have hundreds of hours in the mountains and in the Bonanza. I know the Telluride airport and go four wheeling over Black Bear pass every year going through Ingram basin and right past the crash site. With a tail wind pushing you east and your actual ground speed being much higher than indicated because of the altitude once you pass over the first cliff face with the switchbacks coming down from Black Bear pass and past the falls you are committed. At low altitude there is no escape from the basin ahead and no room to turn in an aircraft like the Bonanza. Your only flat and survivable option would be to ditch in Ingram lake if you are high enough to get there and are aware of its existence in the first place. A flying club I used to belong to here in Phoenix lost its Debonair and two airline pilots plus a passenger taking off out of Telluride failing to turn southwest after takeoff and impacting a slope on the other side of the canyon west of the airport. We will never know why they did it.

[@dylanhayden8825]

As a non-pilot but someone who spends a lot of time in that area I didn't think it would be even under consideration to go over the east end of the canyon. It's like a vertical wall. Even if you had the performance to clear it, like you said, you have no room to make a turn once you're in if you develop engine trouble.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Definitely added something! When I saw that topo map of the basin my jaw dropped. I don't think I could have climbed out of that basin with my F-15E in Burner!

[@rollamichael]

@@FlyWirescottperdue pulease, f 15e, you can go vertical, yes?

[@ostapbendervan7874]

Said he dont think he could.not sayin (He)you cant

[@DrJohn493]

Good discussion of the subject accident. As a flatlander pilot with no mountain flying experience, when I went to Telluride it was by automobile.

[@jjohnston94]

Looking at it with a low angle view on Google Earth, you'd have to be absolutely suicidal to fly east down that valley with anything less than a Saturn V rocket.

[@Kiekhaefer6]

Love your videos Scott.

[@davidduganne5939]

Maneuvering low, close to sloping terrain probably gave a false horizon reference---easy to lose control if only using outside references.

[@lalehbryanskrenes5692]

When I have flown in that terrain, I found the tendency was to pull up gradually to keep distance from the terrain without realizing I was in a climb! Very, very dangerous!

[@paulsuprono7225]

@@lalehbryanskrenes5692 OMG . . . . 😬

[@outwiththem]

Panic Pull combined with Low optical Illusions..

[@jaredsquires3323]

I'm just getting started on my pilot's license, and I am finding your channel, and similar channels, to be great resources to help me take what I learn in the plane and on the ground, and teach my brain HOW to think. Thinking of the energy bucket, that altitude gives you options, and that one of our chief responsibilities as a pilot is to mitigate risk, not just for the people who fly with us, but for those below us on the ground, and those who rely on us to come back safely (preferably with no story, but worse case scenario, an interesting one that ends with "and then I landed").