Forbidden Limb - Finding Art for your Prototype

[@c0barsm]

I would love to hear about all of the time frames that you mentioned in the end of the video. Shipping time, customs time, fulfillment time. Anything in this area would be great!

[@vancedahl9196]

Awesome show!!! Great resources and suggestions! Can't wait for more!!!

[@NordOwl7]

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I am in the first phases of commissioning artwork for my first game that I plan on kickstarting this year and this video was a lifesaver. I will definitely be checking out your earlier podcasts. I hope to see much more of you guys on the Dice Tower.

[@dannys_78]

Great video! Thanks for all the free/cheap image resources! I've often struggled to find the right icons for simple design projects/websites and those will be bound to help!

[@rmcdaniel2424]

Please do more of these videos! I am making a game and would love to hear more of your game design experiences. ( Game Development, Balancing and everything in between) Side note: I am an Art Director for a college, so lucky for me I don't have to pay for an artist! You guys are still enjoyable to watch even though I knew most of what you where talking about.

[@realmchat6665]

Wow, you guys really kick out a lot of useful info in this video. I especially like the links to art resources that you provided. Great job on the video, and way to make an entrance on the dice tower, I look forward to seeing more from you.

[@LosthorizonPT]

I'm so glad you guys started videos about board game design, pls keep it up!

[@jmjamjamjm]

This is great! I'd love to see more of this. I'm an illustrator so it's fascinating to see a project from the designer's perspective. Prototyping with icons sounds like a good way for designers to get started -- That list of websites is super helpful!

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

jmjamjamjm Cool! One of the next two episodes covers tips for improving the relationship between artists and publishers (from both sides). Look for that soon!

[@then8mac]

This must be a permanent feature on TDT in my opinion. Very well done. I can tell with the use of a good mic and three cameras that this setup was not only well thought out but not cheap. I also appreciate game design even though I am not good at it. I wish to get better though.

[@natehocking8884]

Enjoyed the discussion and insight. I vote to keep them on ☺

[@APKlosky]

So much information that I wish I'd had when I Kickstarted "Cold Steel Wardens: Roleplaying in the Iron Age of Comics". Thanks, guys! I'm looking forward to hearing more!

[@Fjelljeger]

Excellent! Please continue with this segment.

[@darrenpsanderson]

Loved the segment, guys! Will definitely be hanging out for the next episode :)

[@joaocamilo8106]

GREAT addition to the network. Will check your older episodes! Cheers!

[@joaocamilo8106]

João Camilo BTW... what MIC do you use? Cool look and good sound.

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

João Camilo Thanks! We use a Samson Meteor Mic - it seems to work pretty well. Sometimes it makes our voices sound a little robotic, like we're in a tin can, but maybe it's not noticeable if you don't know our real voices, ha.

[@joaocamilo8106]

TheForbiddenLimb (Brian Henk) If someone notices, just say it was an Hawking's impersonation!

[@TheGameLocker]

This is definitely relevant for me as someone dabbling in game design! Will check out your previous videos. You guys are engaging, and very informative. Dice tower top 10 lists seem to get lots of views, try doing a "top 10 things I wish I knew before designing a game", or "top 10 things you should know before making a kickstarter campaign".

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

TheGameLocker Thanks! We are planning a Top 10 or two right now so look for that soon!

[@joshisanalias]

Thank you so much for this! I am currently developing a game. It is my first game and I am clueless about the gaming industry. But this is very helpful! This should be a part of the dice tower!

[@c0barsm]

Great new segment! I will have to check out the next one.

[@arthurbrooking]

Loved the show! I hope you keep going on the network.

[@BoredOnlineBoardOffline]

Great segment! Hope to see much more!

[@daniel.muntean]

Wow! This was really informative. Keep it up guys, and let's hope this is not the last episode :)

[@taiwilson2131]

The BEST segment on TDTN!

[@musicalracket]

Hey guys! Great video. I am currently working on publishing one of my own games and I am going through these very steps to get art for my game. Thanks for all of the info and this will help with this and future games!

[@ericgerds3980]

Welcome to the Dice Tower. I will now have to go and watch your old episodes.

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Eric Gerds Thanks Eric! We'll see if Mr. Vasel lets us become permanent members. :)

[@ericgerds3980]

I hope that Mr. Vasel does add you as a regular also. Two good arguments that you can use with him is that: 1) it diversifies the content of the Dice Tower and 2) He can now forward all those game design and manufacturing questions to you, which will take more work off his plate. ;-)

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Eric Gerds Haha, good arguments! ;)

[@ShuckCreations]

This was fascinating info. Thanks for sharing! I'm very interested in hearing more.

[@gooberweevil]

Nice! Looking forward to more episodes! Definitely interested in developing game mechanics and balancing issues. hope that's a topic in the future! :D

[@madmania5080]

Good addition to the Dice network.

[@HemisphereGames]

Thanks for the great info! The only (other) Dice Tower 'cast I've listened to until now is Ludology, but your presence on here is making me want to explore the channel some more... This might be rather niche, but I'd love to hear about box design, including: - The box back: What's required. What's recommended. - The insert: Plastic vs. cardboard. How do these get designed? - How much does size and weight impact fulfillment costs? Are there some "magic" / standard sizes that are wise to target? - At what stage do you design this stuff if there's variability in your stretch goals? For example, if you add some components, or upgrade from a cardboard to a plastic insert, that increases the size of your box, which may increase your shipping costs, etc. Seems like a complex puzzle! Any tips on how to approach this?

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Hemisphere Games These are FANTASTIC ideas for shows. I have added them to our list and we will cover each in detail in the future. Thanks so much for suggesting them!

[@thestrangr18]

Real interesting content! I like having these behind the scenes conversations

[@markcooke776]

Good show and great addition to DT. Useful info and will definitely be checking out those icon resource sites. The only thing I found slightly distracting was the seating positions and camera angles. I think it'd be better with the 'host' on the short side of the table and the two designers next to each other on the long edge. Felt a bit strange that you had to keep turning to look at the camera

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Mark Cooke Hmm, yeah, that might be a bit more comfortable for the viewer. Thanks for the thought, Mark!

[@LettersofVerax]

Fantastic stuff, FL. As a first-time designer this has been very, very helpful and will save me a great deal of time (and money!). More please! Also: in another capacity (book publishing) I've had a mixed-to-positive experience with 99designs. The quality and range of the submissions were generally quite good for the price level, though I found that some designers can get a bit irritable if you express interest in their design and don't end up choosing them. Caveat emptor.

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

LettersofVerax Thanks for the info on 99designs. I (Brian) hadn't heard of them until Jeremy mentioned them on the show, but I'm planning to give them a try in the next couple weeks for an early logo for an upcoming game.

[@torlumnitor8230]

Great series idea, should definitely stay on the tower

[@tonychin1264]

Awesome show, will definitely watch it again

[@Angafea69]

Very interesting. Thanks for the art sites!

[@godlaydying]

I wouldn't have thought that getting art done upfront would make the Kickstarter goal higher. If you haven't got the art, presumably the goal still has to cover the budget to make it.

[@wer2chosen]

When I got a copy of the Frag proto-type from Steve Jackson games, it came with rule book, some maps with squares on them, and their card board heroes. At the play testing proto-type stage that you send to experienced gamers, you may be able to get buy with just text or super simple graphics in my opinion. I would spend more time on rules, mechanics, getting the game played. In my opinion. Once you get feedback, find an artist.

[@Aron-zr1br]

Very helpful with resources like this, regardless if one is a game designer or not! Would be cool to hear some tips on resources for fonts and what kind of fonts to use etcetera. Perhaps text layout in general... :)

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Aron Liljeskog You're in luck! We have already recorded an episode talking about graphic design, which will be one of the next two episodes of The Forbidden Limb. We talk about text on cards but not specifically about typefaces, however this is a basic article on the subject that I thought did a good job discussing typefaces to use: www.smashingmagazine.com/2010/12/14/what-font-should-i-use-five-principles-for-choosing-and-using-typefaces/

[@Aron-zr1br]

Thank you, I will take a look at it as soon as I get the chance! :)

[@grahamhaslett6943]

Really interesting, thanks for putting the time into making this. I'm really interested in how you develop an idea, once you get a basic game concept in your head? Maybe show some visual references too. My only criticism is the intro music, please I'll gladly give you some music i made myself to replace it!

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Graham Haslett Good idea! We want to be careful not to spend too much time on design, even though we're all designers, but cover it in respect to the business side of the industry. What should you consider in design to help with manufacturing, marketing, and target audiences? We'll try to find a way to fit your idea into that kind of topic. Ha, the music is a Dice Tower addition so I can't help with that one. ;)

[@brianfattig1491]

Are you guys a permanent part of the dice tower? I really enjoy this podcast series.

[@Latino-Gamer]

Thanks for the resources. Looks like it could come in handy.

[@seangrady9542]

So informative. working on my first game. might be a hobby, might be more. Glad to know I shouldn't be spending money on art yet. I appreciate this.

[@uhhyuto7465]

7:21 Websites for symbols

[@Mitchellfund]

Wonderfully Informative!!

[@JasonHartgrave]

The most obvious thing was not stated. When thinking about how much art to put into the prototype the big question is, how important is the theme of the game? In an abstract type game, the art won't matter at as much. In a period piece board game the art has a huge impact on the appeal of the game. The more thematic the game, the more the art or lack of it has a chance to swing the appeal. Even if a publisher later decides to change the theme, conventional wisdom might dictate that given the number of submissions I might be competing against for a chance at publishing, my game should theoretically look as good as possible. I would also state the disclaimer that artwork should always weigh in far behind game mechanics. Time spent on polishing game mechanics and flow is always more important than the art.

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Jason Hartgrave Those are some good thoughts, Jason. Commissioning art for a prototype could definitely give you an edge over the competition if you’re willing to front the money for it.

[@JasonHartgrave]

TheForbiddenLimb (Brian Henk) Here's another blogger with a different spin on it. boardsandbarley.com/2013/06/27/the-benefits-of-pretty-prototypes/

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Jason Hartgrave Good read. Ed makes some great points there. I think he’s getting at the fact that there are times in the design process for ugly prototypes and also times for pretty ones and determining those times is critical in taking a game from idea to publishing.

[@Brewmaster103]

Excellent video! I am personally very interested in this topic, as I also strive to be a first time game designer. This type of segment/show is and would be very informative and helpful in the future. An idea I have had recently as a first time designer, is to post finalized practice games as print-and-play PDFs on a personal site. This gives a new designer the ability to show what they have to offer design wise, and help learn from mistakes involving design, art and finishing projects from start to finish. Thanks.

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Nick van beek That sounds like a good plan, Nick. I recommend posting them on boardgamegeek.com as well because it has a huge audience of gamers who are willing to try PnPs.

[@Brewmaster103]

Thanks for the advice!

[@matthewmurdock408]

Great show guys! Just wondering ...one of the questions I always had was how severe is the patent protection when it comes to game mechanics? Just for example, Sam Healeys number one pick for a game with a pasted on theme was Kingsburg...if someone made a Kingsburg-like game with say...a super hero theme and the game itself had a few tweaks to make it different... Does anyone really have the rights to mechanics of games...? (ie- a trading theme like Catan, dice rolling for resources,etc)

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Matthew Murdock A designer or publisher can patent a mechanic, but there are a lot of hoops you have to jump through to prove that it's your original idea. It's a very expensive process and the small margins and short lifespan on most tabletop games do not make it worthwhile for any but the largest publishers to do it. So in general, no one owns the rights to 99.9% of the mechanics. There are also limitations to what the patent protects. For example, designers and publishers circumvented the patenting of Magic's "tapping" mechanic by referring to it as "exhausting" or "depleting" and suggesting they turn their card "at an angle" when it's really doing the same thing. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer so you should consult one before making any legal decisions based on what I have said. :)

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Are there any topics on the business side of the industry that you want to see us talk about in the future?

[@MadLadDesigns]

TheForbiddenLimb (Brian Henk) *Miniatures* - Where do you get them from? - How do you get them custom made? *Shipping* - The do's & don'ts of shipping. - How do you calculate shipping to other countries (being in the UK, this one is a real pain when backing kickstarters!)

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

MadLadDesigns Great topics. We'll have to bring on a guest to talk about miniatures because none of us are experts on that side, but we can make that happen. We definitely plan to talk about shipping in the very near future. Most Kickstarter creators or publishers who use a Kickstarter model don't realize that a big part of their job will be in shipping, logistics, and supply chain management.

[@MadLadDesigns]

TheForbiddenLimb (Brian Henk) What would be great, but not sure if it's feasible at all, would be to have someone who is just starting with their game on kickstart on the show, and to be able to follow them as they go through the whole kickstart process so we can get a real-time behind-the-scenes look as it were... What went wrong, what went right, what had to be changed, is it on target...

[@wroot_lt]

Though i'm not planning to design a game (yet..), it is interesting to hear about different phases of a game development. Maybe it would be useful when checking some kickstarter campaigns and understanding how much experience campaign manager has based on his presentation, art, goals. Some say you talk to fast. I'm not a native English speaker, but it was even easier to listen :) Fast and to the point.

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

wr00t Yep, checking into the background/experience of creators before backing is a great idea. Sometimes you might want to back someone without much experience if they are passionate enough about it, but as the platform continues to develop, the better resume a creator will need to get their game funded. Ha, good feedback. We'll keep talking fast and if anyone needs to rewind, they can. We just gotta make sure Richard cuts us off if we take too long telling a story. :)

[@AgentKuo]

Fantastic advice! Thanks so much for this!

[@HeadCannonPrime]

A topic I would love to hear about is how to find and contact a production company. After I have a game and I have artwork who do I call to get this thing made into a sellable format other than a publisher?

[@Ptnetworks1234]

Good stuff!!

[@prufrock1977]

I wish you had included links in the description.

[@prufrock1977]

Thanks for adding links in the description!! :D

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

prufrock1977 Thanks for suggesting it!

[@tommymclaughlin-artist]

Great knowledge in this video! I'm brand new here and I know this video is old at this point, so I apologize if this question is answered already, but do you guys have an opinion on game designers doing their own art for the game, or do you have any follow up discussion with creators who have gone that route? I realize in most cases it's a bad idea because the designer probably isn't a good artist, but are there any case studies of games that use the designer's original art? Sorry if this is an ignorant question, brand new to the hobby and to the channel. Thanks!

[@SoltariNagumoto]

Great video! +1 for more Fobidden Limb on The Dice Tower. Keep 'em coming!

[@shaneduval8652]

great video!

[@metalrob82]

awesome, that's very very interesting

[@paultompkins6050]

Good discussion. Nice to see these viewpoints. On the negative side. I was really upset by the change in Good Cop Bad Cop artwork so much so that I believe it ruined the game for me I still have it but plan on getting rid of it I hope you release the original art version.

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Paul Tompkins We've had a few people express that they like the gender-less art style better. But stay tuned - Overworld Games has something coming up in the future that may resolve this issue for you.

[@jankokosel]

thank you!

[@monkeyj]

It would be good to hear about copyrighted works too...so if your design was based on a popular Movie, TV Show, Comic, etc.

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Mark Laing To make a game based on a movie, TV show, comic, etc, you would have to acquire the license to make the game from the entity that owns it. That does sound like a perfect show topic and we have some collective experience on this to I'll suggest it to the guys. Thanks Mark!

[@pierosurlalunevideos]

Very cool show, very interesting. You all speak a little too fast for me (As a french, you really are hard to follow :)) but that's ok with some fast rewind :) About the topic of your discussion, I totaly agree with all of you. As an illustrator since 10 years, I've been approached many many time by some "game designers" who want to do a prototype "finished" for publishers. I always decline cause it's not a good idea to bring a prototype "finished" to a publisher. It's his job you're doing and they don't like that :) And please, don't waste money to do a prototype. And I highly recommand to illustrator to not accept to work on protos even if you're paid for that. Believe me, you won't be paid the price you deserve and your work could be lost if the publisher want to change the theme or the style of illustrations About Kickstarter, I won't have an opinion, I never backed a project.. But if I would have to, I must admit that I should prefered to see at least some of the finished Artworks to engage myself in it. Can't wait to hear you on your next topic: "How to find and approach artists ?".

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Piero Lalune Thanks Piero - it's great to hear from an illustrator! We get excited when we talk about this kind of thing and sometimes that means we talk faster. We're trying to pack as much useful content as we can into 20 minutes or less. In the future, we plan to do more top 10 lists, which may be easier to follow.

[@TrevorJust]

awesome

[@danieljensen9275]

Very nice show indeed. I am looking forward to seeing more in the future. I realy would have liked it if you in the future clerify from the start if you are talking about Grafics or Art.Two very different things but non the less very important on there own. I also do not understand why you insist on people having to pay for Grafic and/or Art for there prototypes. You talked about a fear of being sued. This I would argue is a huge missconseption. If you use art/grafics for your prototypes there is nothing you can get sued over. If you distribute files with some ones art in it (putting a PnP version in BGG for example) is more of a grey zone. Selling or in any other way making money of a prototype with some ones grafics/art in it this is where the big no, no´s are. But as long as you use it in your prototypes it is ok to use what ever you find.

[@TheForbiddenLimb]

Daniel Jensen Thanks for the comment, Daniel. We talked mostly about illustrations because many don't know how it differs from graphic design, but we'll talk about the differences between them in one of the next two episodes. I'm not an expert on intellectual property law, so I better not try to argue against you on whether it's a misconception. It's a common question from designers, so we'll try to get the answers from an actual lawyer and discuss it on a future episode. It also may vary by country.

[@danieljensen9275]

TheForbiddenLimb (Brian Henk) Sounds like a great idea for a future episode. =)