Why Don't We Have Top-Loading Shotguns?

All the best firearms history channels streaming to all major devices:
weaponsandwar.tv
When I posted some video of the real-life Halo M90 shotgun, one of the most common questions I got was, "why don't we have top-loading shotguns like that?" Well, it's an intriguing question...so let's see if we can find the answer.
utreon.com/c/f...
/ forgottenweapons
www.floatplane....
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenw...

[@prjndigo]

When someone starts to ask "Why?" in relation to firearms the answer is almost invariably "Dirt." one way or another.

[@ProfessionalPregumin]

Dirt and gravitys relationship to it I had this conversation months ago with somebody.

[@skariaxil]

But what else are you going to catch all that thrown up debris from the grenade in?

[@lainhyugatha3762]

"Dirt" and "Too expensive".

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

@@lainhyugatha3762 Don't forget too complicated, which is related to too expensive, but also relates to too easy to break.

[@dustysmoke4996]

@@ProfessionalPregumin Yup. Loading orifice is on top, dirt/mud/drebris falls downward due to gravity, 1 + 1 = 2. '2' being more dirt and s**t getting into the tube and the loading mechanism.

[@Aggemannen117]

Kel-Tec will probably be the first company to make one

[@ericsfishingadventures4433]

Depends how much coke is flowing around the r&d team! 🤣

[@IrishWeegee]

Speaking of buying things just because they look neat, i love my bullpup KS7 😅

[@bullast2046]

@@ericsfishingadventures4433we need to get them MORE.. lots more!

[@ф_стрелец]

The russian RMB-93 was actually eariler

[@enricopaolocoronado2511]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the UTAS UTS-15 feed from the top as well?

[@ZenjihraShark]

they'd be too op against the flood

[@billniederauer5599]

translation, please.

[@ResidentWeevil2077]

The most effective firearm against zombies - whether terrestrial or alien - has always been the shotgun. This has been true for nearly every zombie game ever made; even the force gun-the closest analogue to a shotgun in Dead Space-is effective at ripping limbs off necromorphs. Btw there's a video on Tarran Tactical's channel showcasing how fast Keanu Reeves is at shooting steel targets in 2 gun. He has to flip his shotgun over to reload - that's one place I can see how having a top loading shotgun would be more effective than a traditional bottom loading one.

[@bullast2046]

“God gave Noah the rainbow sign, no more water”.. it’s the fire next time..

[@JozefLucifugeKorzeniowski]

nothing is too op to use on the flood the flood are too op for the universe. halo(s) were only created to kill the flood which will also kill most other forms of life but at least life will have a chance somewhere.

[@tangydiesel1886]

​@billniederauer5599 it will be too powerful and too good of a firearm against the enemy in the halo video game. OP=overpowered Flood=enemy in halo.

[@c-sfrancoeu1883]

The most obvious reason on the top of my head are : 1-Rain and dirt can fall in the action, if a cover is added then it makes the reloading slow again. 2-Not being able to top load while aiming and being ready to shot at the same time, this is a deal breaker in my opinion. Then if it is a pump action then I would also add: 3-Overall heavier because of added structure to make the pump action works far away from the tube. 4-Pump grip being too close to potential hot barrel, a heat shield seems hard to incorporate with the pumping action.

[@dominater124]

But what if it’s like a m1 garand, I’m not a huge gun person but like after you shoot all the rounds doesn’t the slide stay open? Why not have that mechanic but with a top loading shotgun with a plate where you load the shots, it’ll close the slide once you pump it then opens again once you run out of shells or opened manually. In my head it might be too complicated to manufacture but still an idea

[@KruggKruscherp]

The grip on the shotgun in the video isn't even quite touching the barrel, and it's thick polymer, it's not going to burn your hand through that.

[@c-sfrancoeu1883]

@@KruggKruscherp All shotgun front grip won't become very hot regardless of the design, only the barrel becomes too hot and this is why barrel heatshield exist. The headshield prevents you from burning your hand if touching the barrel mistakenly. With the reversed loading shotgun, chances of touching the hot barrel mistakenly is much greater since it is right next to the grip, and also it must be very hard (if not impossible) to incorporate a heat shield.

[@c-sfrancoeu1883]

​@@dominater124 My guess is they don't risk jamming since the mechanism is much tighter and there is no tube, plus shotgun shell are more sensitive to humidly (at least in the past when they used paper based shell).

[@FadingSwordsman]

@@dominater124 You'd likely just steal the existing mechanism -- the load gate is pushed closed by a spring, and you have to shove it open with a shell. A stiff spring is soooo much less complicated than the bars and leverage to attach the load gate to the pump/action. Further, imagine this scenario: Your pump or action cycles the load gate, which has something on top of it. That something slides between the load gate and magazine, preventing it from closing. Now you have a jam to clear, in the middle of shooting.

[@echo_43]

In the context of Halo, the CAWS is canonically an 8 gauge shotgun. Magazines for 12 gauge semi auto shotguns generally tend to be more clunky or bulky compared to say, an AR or AK magazine. Now think about a mag that has to hold 8 gauge shells, not 12 gauge, and suddenly a t00b makes a bit more sense. The CAWS is also very obviously the go-to solution for incomprehensibly horrifying parasites and energy sword wielding invisible space lizards.

[@jagx234]

They invented it and used it on Innies first, though...

[@xon0930]

@@jagx234 I think that's more a symptom of the game being made first, and then bungie/microsoft backloading lore into the universe to fill it out. The innie conflict was not a thing in the first game, and I'm pretty sure wasn't part of the lore until after the game came out.

[@Lamrett]

@@xon0930 Nope. The Innie conflict and Spartan's backstory in being created for it was first mentioned in the Fall of Reach novel which was released just before CE the game was. Gotta remember Halo was in development for a long time and Bungie as it was loved lore heavy backstories. I can't remember if it was the case but I think one of the discarded concepts did include them in the game.

[@xon0930]

@@Lamrett Huh, I was never aware of the books till a while after the game came out, so I didn't know the books came out first. Does make you wonder what they needed 8 gauge shells for vs innies though.

[@brandonwise5170]

@@Lamrett If you want to get technical, the official website for the game prior to release had a rough timeline of the major historical events between the 21st-26th century that alludes to the Insurrectionist conflict, which also predated the novel. However I’m reasonably confident that Bungie was dimly aware of its content as they were much too busy actually making the game itself to worry about ancillary details like background lore. Most of this stuff was initially fleshed out by Microsoft’s publishing team, namely Eric Trautmann, based on rough documentation supplied by Bungie. Bungie begrudgingly accepted it and built off those plot elements in later installments.

[@tovc]

In competition shotgun shooting, I believe its relatively common to invert the gun to have easier access when inserting the shells, so I think there would be some real merit in not needing to do that.

[@randydewing7429]

In three-gun, though, you won’t be surprised while reloading and need to take a snap shot. If I am walking the grass looking for rabbits, I don’t want to flip the gun over while I top off the tube. I want it in the ready position with my right hand close to the trigger the whole time.

[@ryelor123]

Then it would be considered cheating. That, or one company would have a monopoly for a few years.

[@tovc]

@@randydewing7429 I'm not saying it wouldn't be niche, just that there *might* be some actual value in it. Enough to actually justify it being used over traditional designs? I don't know

[@tovc]

@@ryelor123 I don't know if there are any regulations surrounding the design of competition shotguns, but I'd imagine there'd be some competitions that'd ban it, and others that wouldn't. A patent issue would be a whole other can of worms tho. I'm not sure it'd be very easy to patent a design that existed in fiction prior.

[@dewing2744]

⁠​⁠@@tovcFiction is almost never considered prior art in regards to a patent application. The invention must have been made available to the public or disclosed to the public with enabling detail-information that would allow a reasonably skilled person to make the product or duplicate the innovation. A description of what the invention does is not enough. I don’t have any idea what aspects of a top loading shotgun might be patentable. However, if you build a phased plasma rifle in the 40w range, your patent application can’t be challenged because your product was depicted in a movie or video game.

[@christopherrobin8134]

If the incentive to load shotguns faster developed before the box mag, I think there’s a decent chance we would have seen top loaders. Interesting alternative history.

[@franklynotyourbussiness9401]

we would have shotguns with vertical internal magazines and fed it from stripper clips most likely. Kind of reminds me of what winchester did when russians wanted a winchester for center fired cartridge. They ditched the tube mag and slapped a bolt action magazine onto a lever gun

[@wolfsworkshop9095]

Well, in 3 gun matches there's still a "need" for quick loadable tube fed shotgun, since magfed ones do fall under a different bracket and have penalties attached to them

[@wolfsworkshop9095]

@@franklynotyourbussiness9401 the win 95 was already a thing for a while tho, mostly because they wanted a product that could use spitzer projectiles without the chain fire risk

[@vidard9863]

Depends specifically on the source of the need. For sport shooting the bead on the barrel rib is an important concern. We would probably do side loading gates like lever actions.

[@franklynotyourbussiness9401]

Ah, makes sense with the year designation and all. I knew of it due to its military use by russians, so made the logical assumption. Turned out incorrectly.

[@MrSaintRai]

Bro in my book "It's fucking cool" does most of the heavy lifting.

[@dylanpelo]

That describes over half of the guns I own. The cool factor of this shotgun is vastly overlooked.

[@Darthdoodoo]

I can already imagine your collection 😂😂

[@Terribadguy.]

@@Darthdoodoo It's just a case of Glocks with garish, brightly colored paint schemes fixed with attachments to the gills lol. And one pink one for the wifey, supposedly.

[@josephd.5524]

For shotguns with a specific use like trap shooting, yeah that'd be neat. However, as a duck hunter I can tell you those foggy mornings can be extremely damp and even rainy, and I just don't like the idea of my action slowly filling with water as I wait.

[@hansgrueber8169]

Yes, shotguns were born with hunting needs in mind, tactical applications didn't exist the the days of yore.

[@schonnj]

Exceptionally good point.

[@AndreS_-df2nw]

Or a dog placing a muddy paw on the port while getting back in the boat, leaving you with a grit-filled action that may not function at all until you tear down the gun, clean it all out & lube it.

[@panzerabwerkanone]

I was just about to mention this in a separate comment!

[@hoppinggnomethe4154]

Check out the RMB-93. It has a dust cover for its loading port.

[@gabrielalbertogomez9562]

this is similar to how the QWERT keyboard layout is a vestigial design from old typewriter keyboards to prevent keys from jamming by putting common letter pairs that are typed together as far apart as possible. The bottom fed design in tube fed shotguns is essentially a vestigial design from the old lever guns that were tubefed, from which they trace their design roots from. So yes Ian, the answer is in front of you sort of, since the answer is, "well that's how these older guns were made and nobody seems to mind, let's just keep doing that".

[@richmondvand147]

there is also less chonk with a bottom fed since you can have parts overlapping, same reason the mateba is so chonky too (well taller)

[@dianabarnett6886]

Institutional inertia.

[@_sindre_8658]

Also, nowadays: optics mounting.

[@Gractus]

While it’s commonly stated that the qwerty layout came from typewriters and the placement was intended to put certain letters as far apart as possible to avoid jamming it’s not actually how qwerty came to be. The layout comes from telegraph operators and the placement was evolved over time from an alphabetical ordered single row of keys, then an overlapping double row like a piano keyboard, eventually getting shuffled about to work better for transcribing Morse code. The layout was already developed before it was sold to be used in typewriters. Doesn’t change your point but fun fact.

[@donkeydefense]

@@richmondvand147so a way to get around from the chonk is to have an ovular handguard that is along the barrel and reaches up to the top tube for pump actions.

[@fhorst41]

John Browning's first repeating shotgun design, the Winchester 1887, was a top feed, bottom tube magazine.

[@omarcampbell1657]

Yes, and the model 1901, same as the 1887 but stronger for smokeless powder I think was the difference. As long as we are on the subject, one of these was used in Terminator 2 by Arnold Schwarzenegger‘s character.

[@fhorst41]

@@omarcampbell1657 I am currently hi bidder for an 1887. Wish me luck.

[@larkenkuznetsov3413]

My favourite gun of all time and never even crossed my mind, good point! I've got a repro, and had a UTS-15 so I'm up to two!

[@fhorst41]

@@larkenkuznetsov3413 I bought the Chinese version. The stippled serial number is soooooooo ugly. 🤣

[@NeelTheHuman]

This was one of my first thoughts watching this "How about topfeed bottom mag tube shotgun, would that be possible?" Seems like it is

[@ПавелКузнецов-ф3т]

There is РМБ-93 "lynx" shotgun and her big brother GM-94(same thing but 43mm grenades) they loads from top, and also have cool design with moving barrel

[@freddysauce]

The only thing I can think of would be the opening for reloading being more likely to get clogged with dirt since it is on top. When it is open to the ground stuff falls out of it, it does not "pool" inside of it.

[@chrisdinger5100]

My thoughts exactly, I was thinking of the military torture tests. Just an action full of sand with no were to go but out the barrel.😬

[@CobraCommander92]

Same thought. Not to mention water. Imagine all the water that would just pool with the internals while in the rain. Unless they had some to drain water out.

[@tylerroman4179]

I thought of this too, however it does have a benefit too, spent shells can drop right out the bottom of the gun, and dirt might be able to drop out the same way

[@mimicrymwot]

A solid point. But at the same time, it's not like there hasn't been any design with an open top and closed bottom before (which is, like, every bolt action ever made). Also, if you do get a bunch of sand into the action, you turn it upside down and now the opening is down

[@_aullik]

@@mimicrymwot Yeah but why does it have to be closed bottom?

[@bodyno3158]

We have one, but not in America, RMB-93 is top-loaded. Also pump-forward, and double-action, it's a stack of oddballs.

[@leogogo7003]

With awful top-folding stock too

[@ivankrylov6270]

Also uts-15 butnnobody has thought about those in a while

[@jmalmsten]

I've always wanted to see a front pump action on a shotgun. Not for any real practical reasons, I just see the potential for bump stock like rapid fire. But doing it that way would probably be hell for the shooters hands and wrists. And probably only doable for hip shooting so accuracy would be an issue as well. But then again. Stupidity have yet to stop gun nuts on the past. So... I guess it'd be inevitable regardless. 😅

[@absolutelyanarhy8830]

​@@jmalmsteni have one and accuracy and comfort of shooting is fine. Only disadvantage is fucking trapdoor on a loading window. Also its weeeery compact and also a 8+1 capacity!

[@taeliantalittia612]

Ah yes, the "inverse" shotgun.

[@johnanon6938]

One bad reason was +70 years back shells were most-often made of paper and top loading shotgun would let dirt/snow/rain-water just funnel directly in. One good reason today to make top loading shotgun is to have slightly less muzzle climb maybe??? Gonna need Ian to test that last one though. :D

[@dannybax1982]

Wouldnt matter.... Weight would still be in the same place , looking from a balance point of view. Muzzle climb would only be reduced if the tube would extend out further.

[@davefeil1522]

@@dannybax1982 Yes but the recoil impulse being more in line with your shoulder would mean less angle the barrel is over your shoulder, AKA less muzzle climb.

[@cryhavocandletslipthedogso1873]

@@davefeil1522 But couldn't one just basically move that barrel and tube a little down relative to the stock, as to achieve that effect? I suppose the sights would have to be elevated as well... Point is, just like a top-loading shotgun is possible and feasible, getting the recoil under better control for bottom-loaders should be just as possible

[@eosaeostre9242]

⁠​⁠@@davefeil1522unfortunately because of the M90’s design the bore axis WOULDN’T be more in line with your shoulder, because you effectively have three tubes now, one just for the pump to be mounted on, the barrel, and the mag tube on top. So instead of making something like the Chiapas Rhino where you have a weapon of roughly the same height as the average, but a lower bore, you just have a taller gun in this case. Muzzle flip would be exactly the same because the barrel is remaining right where it normally would be, and you’re just adding an extra tube on top. The extra weight would likely not make much of a difference, because it’s still a 12 gauge.

[@RatsFunHouse101]

⁠@@eosaeostre9242I don’t think that’s true at all. Just by looking at the thing in the video, you can see that the barrel is in line with the lower half of the stock. Every bottom loading shotgun has their barrel inline with the top of the stock. The axis is definitely different.

[@Nirakolov]

It's weirdly refreshing to have an explanation be 'no reason, that's just how it happened to be'

[@Gatitasecsii]

Wdym he gave 3 very good reasons for why. Instinctive shooting, faster reloading is generally unnecessary and when it is necessary, cartridges are better

[@ExTremZero]

@@Gatitasecsii i consider rewatching the video

[@everythingknife8763]

I see it as "It worked perfectly for it's originally intended function and if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[@irregularassassin6380]

@@everythingknife8763 That's the reason why 90% of things in the world are the way they are. Humans tend to stick with the "good enough" solution, and it's hard to shake us from that decision. I took classes on entrepreneurship and innovation. One of the rules of thumb we were taught was that an innovation has to be about 10 times better, in at least one capacity, than the original to be properly successful. I scoffed at the idea, but the more I looked at which innovations caught on, and which failed, it seems to hold fairly true. Compare breach-loading shotguns to tube mag shotguns to box mag shotguns. Each step had significant improvements over the previous. Tube mag shotguns offer around three to four times the ammunition of a double-barrel _and_ they never have a problem with your bead being offset from your barrel. Box mag shotguns eliminate the need to fumble your shells into the gun entirely. These steps aren't quantifiably 10 times better than each previous step, but they are major leaps. As much benefit as there might be for a top-loading tube mag shotgun (for some shootists), it's not a significant enough innovation to make a big enough splash on the market to be successful.

[@Gamer3427]

@@irregularassassin6380 I think part of the reason the innovations have to be so much better is also a cost factor. Any new technology ends up costing a lot more than the iterations already present, because the manufacturing process and resources available have to be customized to the new technology. This means that consumers, (whether we're talking small scale home ownership, or large scale military), have to consider whether the improvements are worth that increased cost. If something is only a marginal improvement, the cost being higher will keep it from selling well. If it's a massive improvement though, it's a lot easier for the consumer to see it as being worth the additional cost.

[@SqueakiestChair]

Gun Jesus has, once again, made my morning at work less boring

[@RaDeus87]

It's a commute-home video for me (CET).

[@RyleKittenhouse]

Currently in a portalloo getting paid to watch Ian. Love my life, hahaha

[@Oligodendrocyte139]

“Get the F back to work!” Boss....

[@cyberbeep5187]

Same here, although me, the boss, and a fellow mechanic are tuning in right now to this video. Gun Jesus gets priority over radio at work!

[@sampelletier5083]

Do you work as the cameraman for forgotten weapons?

[@DSzaks]

The only other argument I can think over for bottom mounted ammo tubes over top mounted is that it having it on the bottom allows the tube to double as a forestock to hold onto/brace the weapon. Having the tube on the top means this part would need to be added separately which could increase the weight/cost of the product, and the alternative of leaving it off and holding directly on to the barrel is probably not the most ideal situation.

[@remielpollard787]

It also increases height over bore, but probably not by enough to be a problem.

[@MrColandrin]

I mean, it's a shotgun, HOB probably isn't that important compared to a rifle or weapons intended for longer ranges​@@remielpollard787

[@noblesicks]

The pump handle is the fore grip it wraps around the barrel

[@dylanpelo]

But have you considered how cool it would be?

[@burnte]

This was my very first thought.

[@MrPapamaci88]

Hunting-culling wild hogs is a situation where this might be useful. Scary stuff can happen with them, can easily leave the hunter in mortal danger.

[@james3414]

then uh, maybe just become immortal???

[@MrPapamaci88]

@@james3414 I'd rather pick invulnerability, imagine being ripped apart and surviving...

[@james3414]

@@MrPapamaci88 I didn’t think about that, except I’d still need to be vulnerable to spicy food otherwise life is not worth it

[@BWGPEI]

At 71, I still get a grin from the questions and observation you show us. Good on you!

[@therhea8003]

😂

[@jonesclantd]

Design consideration for the infantryman: A top loader with the loading port looking the way it does today means a big area on the top of the gun that traps rainfall into the action and magazine. Not a huge concern for catastrophic failures, but it could mean water in the tube spoiling your ammunition. And for a long maintenance schedule, it's important to keep what could be a lot of moisture that didn't have to be there from being trapped in the gun for long time. Anytime you can make the top of a gun more likely to shed water away from the action, the better.

[@enclavesoldier769]

I really don’t think that applies, especially if properly designed it really wouldn’t be an issue. That’s like saying bolt action rifles would have the same issue because when you think about it they are actually top loading rifles

[@TheWitnesserer]

​@@enclavesoldier769 Right, but bolt action rifles tend to stay closed except when cycling. Shotgun loading ports are usually just kinda open cavities. Even loading gates like on the 870 don't have a total seal on the guts. You'd have to redesign the loading gate completely so it blocks all debris ingress.

[@littlebuddyoutdoors]

Dude who built it was a grunt, cool dude. Has high plasma in his blood apparently

[@ShizawnSanders]

In terms of water im sure you would just design that like a muffler or even a AR buffer tube to get rid of it. Dirt might be a bigger issue however think about our guys crawling through the mud with a traditional pump action. You would think with it being on the bottom you would get dirt all in there and with it on top you wouldn't. Unfortunately or fortunately, however you see it I haven't had the pleasure or displeasure to find out in that scenario.

[@loganstallworth]

This is the why

[@MrChainsawAardvark]

Top-loading is decently common in weapons - provided they're crew served. Bren Gun/ZB-26: Loader grabs empty mag, places new one, slaps gunner who is still tracking targets to indicate loaded. MK-19/M2: Open top cover, position belt , close. 40mm Dual Bofors AA mount - loaders feed clips on the top, brass and holding clips fall out bottom. Conversely - you don't see shotguns operated by multiple people (yes, I know of punt guns, but I am trying to be somewhat reasonable) so making the action accessible to others isn't a priority.

[@_spacegoat_]

All you've done is convince me that I want to see someone invent a crew-served shotgun now.

[@eyywannn8601]

@@_spacegoat_I dunno much about firearms but isn’t that basically a flak cannon?

[@MrChainsawAardvark]

Nah, the flak doesn't come out in pieces its a normal time/proximity fuse shell (Flak is short for the German Flugabwehrkanone - or aircraft-defense cannon) @@eyywannn8601

[@LibertyMonk]

​@@_spacegoat_arguably that's what mortars or at least cannons are. Until they started rifling them.

[@Panda_-fx4tw]

@@_spacegoat_ i feel like a crew served shotgun would be very similar to a mk19 grenade launcher

[@briansimpson6710]

top feed on a pump action is partly due to flex physics of making the pump arm go further off of it's centerline, similar to how a pistol grip on the pump grip causes angled stresses. On a semi-auto like the bernelli in theory it should work just fine, but added into the familiarization, ergenomics, and 'if iit ain't broke, don't fix it"

[@BlazingOwnager]

This one was interesting. I like the fact it's basically a weird middle technology where it's slightly better than what is typically available, but if people care about that, they can jump to an option that's far better than manual loading leaving it in limbo. It is neat though, and it needs to happen for that reason alone!

[@johnm3907]

It's honestly a little worse because the barrel is on the top its a little harder to hit with. That's a big loss compared to the small gain of not having to turn your gun 90° to see the port.

[@dustinbrueggemann1875]

@@johnm3907 That's only relevant to iron sights though. As long as the designers don't half ass the mounting, even a shitty red dot renders the issue largely moot. A shotgun is a close in weapon. It's not like you're not trying to hold zero at 800 yards.

[@johnm3907]

@@dustinbrueggemann1875 true enough, but I just don't see any upsides with this gun except the lower bore axis for recoil that someone else said. It's just a futuristic looking gun.

[@Meravokas]

@@johnm3907 With a top mounted tube it actually makes the option of an extended tube more viable in a tube fed magazine to follow more closely to the barrel length. You're not fighting the weight as much for racking the pump because of weight distribution.

[@theodorehunter4765]

The main issue with mag-fed shotguns is that they tend to get very bulky very quickly. I remember the first time I saw a Saiga, and I saw a MASSIVE magazine attached to it. I asked how many rounds it carried, and the store owner told me "ten". Ten shots for a magazine that was about twice as long as you would want it to be. Talk about cumbersome. I look at Mossbergs mag fed shotguns and the only "reasonably sized" magazines hold 5 rounds. They are shorter than Saiga mags, but they are still VERY bulky. Honestly, mag fed shotguns (in a traditional layout) haven't seen much use in the military (AFAIK) because they are so much bigger than a "traditional" shotgun. Why add a massive box to the underside of your shotgun when a mag tube already holds 5-8 shells? (There is a mag-fed breaching shotgun, but it is solely used as a breaching tool, and everyone I have spoken to about it that has experience with it says it's hot garbage.) Assuming the "M90" could be built to work just as well as something like a R870, I see it as a straight upgrade. Either use sights or have a mag tube the same length as the barrel and put the front sight post there. A semi auto M90 that worked as well as a Benelli M4 would also be a straight upgrade. The problem is that shotguns are kinda falling out of favor with the military, in general. The new trend seems to be going towards smaller, breaching specific shotguns or alternative breaching tools.

[@iankirby4160]

Also keep in mind the m90 is actually 8 gauge in-game so those magazines will be even bigger.

[@ProfessionalPregumin]

Yep I actually get that question a lot, why don't I own a magazine fed shotgun. They're just so goddamn bulky. And I've never felt inadequate with a tubefed, if I've ever needed more than what the tube can hold I'm in real trouble and definitely should have had a carbine instead. And let's not forget, much like lever actions you can top off on the go or switch to a specialty load quickly.

[@nnerrfman6326]

Also plastic shotgun shells tend to squish when stacked vertically, as opposed to linearly.

[@hornmonk3zit]

They also aren't used much in the military because box magazines squish the shells to the point you can't chamber the rounds if left loaded. They didn't screw around with box mags for a hundred years even though when pump shotguns were invented they used full brass shells, paper and plastic hulls don't stand a chance if they couldn't get full brass ones to work.

[@foxtrotnine2504]

I wonder if it would be possible to do the equivalent of stripper clips but for shotgun shells going into a tube. There’s have to be some small but durable material holding like 4 shells together perfectly vertically stacked on one another and the user can insert 2 of those into the tube, to get 8 shots out of it. That feels like an advanced solution but would need lots of testing first, and I can easily see it being a flop

[@inductivegrunt94]

Halo really popularized top-loading shotguns. Honestly, it'd be cool to see this design done in real life. Halo shotguns in real life would be so awesome if mass produced. Bonus points if it's chambered in 8 Guage.

[@craighansen7594]

Have you ever priced 8ga?

[@Arnor2207]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/anvEoH9sns-noNE

[@aboveaveragebayleaf9216]

It's a shame halo infinite doesn't have the classic style of shotgun.

[@brandonwise5170]

@@aboveaveragebayleaf9216 my main issue with the bulldog is it's still a pump action despite being a more "realistic" tactical shotgun. I also find it ridiculous that it only has a 7 round capacity drum mag when it's chambered in 12 gauge while still being much larger than other shotguns that are mag fed.

[@smoldoggy1005]

@@aboveaveragebayleaf9216leftists don’t like conventional, realistic, logical, or cool weapons in their games. Makes sense why they would get rid of the M90 so they could replace it with something that doesn’t even resemble a gun

[@Gojiro7]

Something that this very channel has taught us, that the pursuit of making an unorthodox gun just for its cool factor lives on in history after utterly bankrupting its inventor or the company who tries to make/sell it

[@DavidBarkland]

As someone who isn't experienced in firearms (the only one I've ever fired is the Ak5C) but _is_ quite knowledgeable in engineering, I would guess that's _probably_ the reason why top-mounted tube mags aren't common. All of the ways I can think of to make such a design pump-action or lever-action (or self-loaded with pump or lever charging handle) would require a few more parts with more complex shapes in the mechanism requiring tighter quality, so it'd be more expensive for not that much of a benefit.

[@mattislindehag3065]

Take a look at the Russian RMB-93 shotgun (which works exactly the same as the GM 94 pump action grenade launcher). The top mounted tube enables you to use gravity feed and dispence with things such as the elevator and the moving bolt. By getting rid of those you shed complexity, weight and volume.

[@marshaltito7232]

>AK5 Hello Swedish friend, welcome to NATO!

[@ozfifer7392]

It's the Mateba Unica of shotguns. A lot of engineering and higher prices for an oddball gun that still has next to no advantages compared to its contemporary counterparts.

[@ChadBoss-qr4hl]

I was thinking something similar. If it's a pump action, it seems like it would be simpler and thus cheaper/more reliable to implement the loading mechanism in line with the pump whereas with a top loader it would have to somehow traverse the chamber because the pump would still be on the bottom. If it's a bolt action or semi-auto it wouldn't have that problem, but then the bolt would have to shunt the shells DOWN to the chamber. Note that bolt action guns (with internal magazines) DO actually feed from the top when loading, but once loaded, the bolt extracts the shell inline and the next one is pushed up by a spring. So in our hypothetical toploader shotgun, where is the force coming from that shunts the bullet DOWN into the chamber since you wouldn't have anywhere to put a spring? Not saying it can't be done, because obviously there are examples... But it just doesn't seem like it would be as robust and reliable as pushing the cartridges UP with a simple spring. I suppose you could angle the inside of the top piece that covers the loading port, like a feed ramp on say a 1911, but upside down, but there are at least 2 problems I can think of there... 1. You still need a spring under the loading port cover to push it up so it's flush with the top of the gun when not loading. Not impossible, but again, this is MORE complicated engineering and thus less reliable/robust, but more importantly, 2. Shotgun shells have flat noses, which don't work that great with feed ramps, hence the reason why wadcutters don't really work in a 1911.

[@DamianMaisano]

I think a reason box mags wouldn’t work as well in Halo is because it’s 8 gauge. Those would be massive magazines. And I bet in-universe it being a pump (some models are pump-semi like a Spaz-12 or Benelli M3) would be the utility of different rounds of varying pressure from tear gas to armor piercing slugs. It is used for purposes like law enforcement and while inside a space ship after all. Plus, having the most rugged reliable gun possible would be good when on alien planets sometimes months away from help.

[@timothybayliss6680]

Tube magazine also allows top up reloads. You can put one round in without taking the magazine out. It keeps the firearm ready.

[@DamianMaisano]

@@shadowopsairman1583 If you mean those drum magazines, those are horrifically inefficient

[@hedgehog3180]

I think it's more that the reload animantion for a tube fed shotgun looks cooler, plus everyone expects a shotgun to rack and automatic shotguns don't do that and are boring as a result. Like it's definitely a game design choice similar to how a lot of the guns visibly display how much ammo they have left in order to avoid having it clutter up the HUD.

[@andyc280081973]

Growing up on a farm in the UK we had the usual double barrel 12 guages, except me who had (and I can't recall the make alas) a Greener EG Mark III style top loading single shot lever action 12 gauge. Overall it was a fantastic hunting weapon so long as you didn't need a second shot immediately - given most of my generation didn't have auto eject on their guns, using my under lever I could in fact get a better rate of fire with the lever flinging the cartridge out. Nighttime shooting when it was difficult to see where to lead, and on a bouncing truck bed and this was the gun of choice. Thanks for the distant memories!

[@AlexN2022]

I think you're absolutely correct. I could see one reason for top reload: consider using a shotgun in a prolonged gun fight. 1) you do want to reload as quickly as possible 2) you do not have a set course of fire (as you do in a match), so you want to top up as opposed to run dry and reload a whole magazine It's not a very compelling reason in practice. On the other hand, making a top-loading shotgun can be a product differentiator anyway. Just for the cool factor alone.

[@jonathanh761]

The most practical sense in which the top feed would make sense and be beneficial is in a combat shotgun. The tube load is preferred for reliability as well as the ability to change shell types without having to actually reload the entire shotgun. Probably will still never seen one make the mainstream but my inner halo fan would love it.

[@manatipowa]

Then again, mag fed shotguns would still be better to stay topped up.

[@goncaloproa840]

To be honest I figured one of the answers would be "having the loading port on top would make it easier for dirt and debris to get in the action", either by gravity or by being pushed in during loading. If the loading port is on the bottom, debris would tend to fall on the ground.

[@MarkoDash]

have it eject out the bottom. leaves both sides slick, simplifies manufacturing, and most small debris could just fall through as the action is worked

[@recoilrob324]

Add some rain and debris falling from nearby mortar impacts and a top feeder would be jammed up pretty quickly. The only quibble I have with the Halo gun is they should have used a Mossberg 500/590 action which doesn't have the spring loaded lever that needs to be depressed to stuff a round in the tube. Carrying 4 round reloading tubes is about as fast and convenient a solution that can be made and much less bulky and problematic than box magazines which can deform the shells due to the spring pressure when loaded.

[@rmhaven142]

that would be relevant for a military scenario, like the ww1 trenches where shotguns found more extensive use on the american side.

[@haroldlee4037]

Every military bolt action rifle, since forever, has been top loading. Even the mag fed bolt actions had provisions built in to them to load the magazine through the top of the action. I don't think dirt and debris is the issue that some think it is.

[@Solnoric]

Downward ejection could cover that

[@MatthewMe]

In a combat/rapid reload situation, it feels awkward to feed shells in from the top if you're attempting to maintain the shotgun high and ready. You break your sight picture with your hand, have to reach further, feel like you need to lower the gun, etc. Sliding shells in from the bottom maintains your feed hand closer to a ready position, and doesn't interfere with your view. Now, this could just be an artifact of what we're used to, and it could work quite well either way. We all tend to have a bias for how we learned and have repeated. Great video, and a nice prototype Halo shotgun!

[@KruggKruscherp]

But you could also load the shotgun without even having to look at it or be nearly as careful feeling your way underneath to insert the shell, you could have it down by your side/waist easily slotting in shells from the top while keeping your eyes peeked behind solid cover so you're not situational-awarenessly blind for the time it takes. Can also just learn to hold it up higher in your peripheral from below if you need to keep it in sight to make sure you load it properly, but I bet over time you'd get used to it and not even need to look down at the flap to load it.

[@musicremixes847]

bs

[@rip.tear.]

@@musicremixes847 would have to agree

[@nmspy]

@@KruggKruscherp if you’re familiar with your gun you can just as easily load it based on muscle memory alone, plus your ammo would likely either be in a vest (closer to the bottom of the gun) or if you’re bougie like me you just keep a buncha slugs in your pockets lmao

[@jcklsldr]

I'd wager sight picture with a shotgun is significantly less important than any other rifle lol

[@samuelmillard8679]

I would agree that the height over bore is the main reason against. Additionally the advantages of having a top load is mute with many speed loading techniques involving rotating the gun into your armpit to move the loading gate dorsally

[@thedangermouse1991]

The tube can be used as the base for the handguard, especially pump action. So there is no need for a heat shield for the barrel reducing overall wait. You can see that on the m90 in the video it has three tubes instead of the more covenantal two.

[@r.b.rozier9692]

Overall wait for what?

[@aaa72317]

@@r.b.rozier9692 I believe he meant "weight" and not "wait". Autocorrect is a fickle mistress.

[@JohnHughesChampigny]

@@aaa72317 Autocorrect -- ChatGPT's stupid brother.

[@r.b.rozier9692]

@@aaa72317 oh, I was confused AF!

[@jagx234]

It has dual mag tubes. Need em both to fit all of those 8ga shells

[@mouldy9466]

The russian RMb-93 comes to mind when it comes to real life examples of top mounted tube (and probably top loading) shotguns.

[@paleoph6168]

There is even the GM-94, a top loading pump action grenade launcher.

[@sarath431]

​@@paleoph6168 - it is russian version of chinalake

[@wolfsworkshop9095]

Ye, and there's also several reasons why no one made similiar design to that one Main one is that those things are pretty finniky to load, you don't have a loading gate, but literally just a hinged cover you need to open for loading The shells only have a small recess you have to manually push them into when reloading and you can really only load in one at a time Also at last, they're very complex inside and every time you reload you're basically opening the guts of the gun out

[@Def-cd6bm]

Exactly! One of my friends owns two of them. Handmade smokepowder shells were fun to shoot. The shoulderstock is somewhat uncomfortable. Oh and inverted pump-action takes time to get used to..

[@tylerrichards6456]

I agree with almost everything you said except for the supposed downside of worse ‘instinctive shooting’ if the tube is above the barrel. Since most shooters actually tend to miss high when they’re off, many competitive shotgunners actually use an extremely elevated sight rail multiple inches over the barrel. I used to be a consistent 23/25 in trap and always shot the low barrel of my O/U for the same reason. Whether you prefer the elevated sight rail or not, a shooter will get the feel of where and how they’re missing and will subconsciously adjust their aim point. Even then, as you’re shooting a pattern and not driving a tack, being a tube diameter low on your target is pretty unlikely to alter the outcome of the shot anyways.

[@Simon_Nonymous]

I am no way experienced enough to say I know better, but thought Ian's comment about sighting/instinctive shooting was not really such a big factor. Otherwise the OU shotgun's bottom barrel would be less than optimal. Thank you for your experienced thoughts sir.

[@FuckGoogle502]

Sight rail on a shotgun? I mean, I'm not a champion skeet shooter or anything, but Dad was a pretty damn good duck hunter and I could outshoot him at the range and I NEVER used the bead on a shotgun unless I was shooting slugs. You aim down the side of the barrel. Me and Dad took both the youth and adult trophies at Camp Powhatan (Boy Scout Summer Camp) a couple years for a family cleanout lol. We REALLY cleaned house the second year once we learned we were allowed to bring our family's Belgian A5. I got kicked out for skipping rocks on the pond, though, (for fucking real) so that was the last year we went together.

[@LegDayLas]

As someone who has spent 1000's of hrs on trap fields.... I have NEVER seen a shotgun with multiple inches of extended rail. 1 inch is pushing it. Look at a ruler, look at your shotgun, tell me how comically large a 2 inch offset on that rail would look.

[@tylerrichards6456]

Have you ever seen an ‘unsingle’ ie lower barrel only subbed onto an OU receiver? Sight rail is most definitely multiple inches vertically offset from the bore.

[@IMelkor42]

You missed the concept of 'topping up', that is an advantage of the tube magazine guns over box mags.

[@Will_Forge]

The reason the shotgun in Halo was designed to require individual shells put in instead of a box magazine is for gameplay purposes. You're supposed to feel tense during Flood infested missions, and the shotgun is the most effective weapon against it other than the sword/hammer. All of these weapons have a unique ammo tracker compared to most guns. The strategic timing of when to reload makes you think with your strategic mind rather than your operational or tactical mind, meaning you're trying to anticipate the future threat that isn't seen yet and therefore you are growing the anxiety of the next incoming threat in your own mind. You're turning an enemy soldier into a horror monster in your own perception. Reloading is always a strategic action in games, and is always fueled by anxiety of the potential empty mag, but when choosing to reload slows you down and makes you do it one round at a time it's a much heavier strategic impact on the gameplay, making your strategic mind remain active for longer to naturally encance the anxiety and tension. When used against the Covenant, they don't bull rush you, so instead you can slow down, take cover, and reload like you said in your video that most encounters there are more like real life. You don't typically need to reload in an unsafe area against Covenant or even Sentinels. So yeah, the weapon serves a double role in Halo. It serves one when fighting the Flood, and another when fighting the enemies that are more concerned with their own survival and end up giving you time to breath and reload as a result.

[@Will_Forge]

I know that was a huge text block, but it's a solid read and a great sniper of a greater analysis of game design. I hope someone does read it and enjoys the thoughts it provokes. 🫡

[@BlizzardArms]

I can’t think of a single time in the rainforest of southeastern Alaska that I hunted when it wasn’t raining or snowing. I can’t think of a single gun where “let’s let rain wash through this part of the action” sounds like a smart idea.

[@KevinBYee]

Good point

[@spartanater584]

Top-feeding shotgun with dust cover lol.

[@dinkledord7026]

I can't think of a single person who lives in the rainforest of Alaska

[@timsimmons9995]

Obvious issues: Magtube doubles as a forearm so it serves two purposes. Top load and mag tube would be top heavy with the full loaded mag tube on top, and pump or forearm would require a separate 3rd tube and just be more heavy and complex. Normal shotgun utilizes the tube as the forearm or pump. Look at the prototype, it has a barrel, a mag tube, and a separate tube for the foreend. Otherwise you'd be holding the hot barrel, and would need something covering it. Just be a lot heavier with needless parts. And of course the offset sights not aligned on the barrel, and dirt/water/mud easier ingress in the big hole in the top.

[@BlizzardArms]

@@dinkledord7026can you think of anyone who has ever hunted in the rain or snow?

[@gagecoutch3284]

Gun design function is always most important, but the rule of cool dominates everything top loading shotgun is just cool I want

[@Bambihunter1971]

Originally as you mentioned with rifles, the idea was to keep the sights close to the bore axis for more accurate point of aim at any distance. Shotguns it isn't as important, but for those of us that hunt in any and all weather, I see this as a funnel giving rain and dirt a nice easy path into the gun. Mag fed shotguns have other minor issues loading, but as you mentioned are generally quick and even more so if they have a flared mag well. I have seen some incredibly fast reloads doing the 2/4 shell reloads as you mentioned. It takes a ton of practice but it is a work of art for those who have mastered it (I am getting better, but not there yet).

[@oldsalt8805]

Just add a dust cover... AR did it!

[@simplyhammer5105]

"Shotguns it doesn't matter as much" Shotguns don't have as much spread as many would think.

[@clarissevanrossum4]

Reloading from the bottom seems a lot more comfortable when I have the weapon shouldered or holding it otherwise. It would be kind of awkward to reach over the top with shells in hand, with the possibility of dropping one increasing as well. If I fumble a shell while loading from the bottom then it naturally wants to fall back into my palm. It seems more natural to reload from the bottom because that is the shortest path between the magazine and wherever my shells are, unless I am literally shooting from the hip of course.

[@andreasmangs3131]

Why would you still hold it against the shoulder when loading?

[@clarissevanrossum4]

​@@andreasmangs3131So that I don't have to reshoulder the weapon and reacquire the sights, important for certain types of competitions where shooting fast matters. Also, I may be shooting from a bench rest, and taking the rifle out of the rest to reload is slower.

[@andreasmangs3131]

If shooting from a bench rest I can understand, but do you need that for shotshells? I think its faster to move the Gun to reloading position and fill up with one or two quad loads and back to the shoulder, than to fiddle in several one by one and still holding it at the shoulder. And If its only one, you can have a safety shell in a holder next to the ejection port and slide in while still shouldering (or plan the stage better).

[@clarissevanrossum4]

​@@andreasmangs3131Hey man, whatever you're more comfortable with will probably also be your preferred, and therefore faster method to reload. What works for me might not work for you and the other way around as well of course. Personally, I'm faster and more used to slipping in two or three shells semi-shouldered should I miss a target on a stage or need a partial reload.

[@phillipswanson4055]

I second that - I use the 870 for trap shooting and bird hunting and have had to do field reloads, pretty quick to lower the gun only slightly and pop a shell or two in or fill the mag from a ready position. I have seen some people flip the gun over to completely load the magazine, so I am sure some folks will prefer top loading shotguns. Some company will make one eventually.

[@TarsonTalon]

As a Halo fan, I can probably give in-universe reason why the Halo shotgun is top-loaded: 1. Enemies are shielded, meaning they are gonna take multiple hits, which means you are reloading more often. 2. CQC is frequent due to spaceship boarding actions, meaning it needs to be reloaded fast. 3. Having no magazine makes logistics in space easier. As for a real life reason other shotguns don't have top-loading: Dirt, water, and grime. However, maybe there's a system that prevents that from happening in the future. tl;dr: The Halo shotgun is the way that it is due to threats that exist in its timeline. Hands down, the Halo shotgun is going to perform way better than any shotgun that currently exists within its own universe, where you've got heavily armored insurrectionists, heavy concentrations of shielded and armored aliens, and space zombies THAT RUSH YOU AND SHOOT BACK.

[@skorzalonsdale4426]

Historically, if you need to reload a shotgun quickly you have 2 shotguns and a loading assistant to make sure at least one is fully fed.

[@Tank50us]

And in combat, if you're reloading, you typically have a dozen or so other guys with you who can keep you safe... And have you seen the size of the bayonet used on the US Shotgun? Even the Enfield was jealous.

[@BleedingUranium]

An assistant loader? So what you're saying is we need shotguns with top-mounted magazines, like a Bren. :D

[@skorzalonsdale4426]

@@BleedingUranium Hah, I know it’s a ridiculous idea but I’d love to see what a static, top loading, crew served automatic 12 bore could send down a clay or skeet range. On that note, has anyone ever seen a belt fed shotgun? Other than one that looks like it was knocked up in a garden shed anyway. Again, it’s a ridiculous idea that would never be “optimal” in reality, but I’d love to see that shit tear apart a tree line at 100 yards.

[@Meravokas]

Can you give an example of this? I've never heard of this practice at all, with the only two wars that saw large scale shotgun use for more than breaching and direct CQC (Beyond trench level) were WW1 and WW2. WW2 being only really in the Pacific theater with the Marines though. Jungle fighting actually being a valid point for running a shotgun because usually you're going to find each other at fairly short range before a firefight breaks out.

[@skorzalonsdale4426]

@@Meravokas Yeah, I meant “historic use” in terms of sport shooting. Like when you go grousing you usually take 2 double barrels and an assistant feeds them. In terms of the military I have no idea what they do, but like you I’ve never heard of anyone with a shotgun being given an assistant to help with loading.

[@davidray6962]

Isn't that Russian pump-barrel shotgun top loaded? Again, not exactly market dominating, but if it is a top loader, that's proof that the form factor has existed for at least a decade without taking off like wildfire.

[@andrewdenzov3303]

Yep. RMB-93

[@gimpygeese3121]

I'd say in respect to normal shotgun use, its ergonomics. When the push shells into the magazine, you're pushing against the spring. When you're pushing it in from below, the shotgun is being pushed away from you. This is easy to resist because the grip isn't far off from the axis of the magazine, regardless of whether it's a conventional or pistol grip. The grip is designed to give you a good grip when the muzzle comes up, like when you're shooting. When you're loading from the top, I'd imagine the shotgun will try to roll forwards away from you. The axis of the magazine is now further away from the grip and the grip isn't ergonomically designed to the shotgun rolling forwards, this means youll need to have a tighter grip on something that isnt designed to be gripped that way. In terms of service weapons, a massive hole in the top is asking for problems. From a design standpoint, bottom feeding magazine tubes and mechanisms designed for them have been around for over a century. Why change it? I may be chatting out of my rear as I am by not means a shotgun expert, having only fired over unders, but this is why I think that pump action, tube magazine shotguns (unfortunately for us Halo fans) do not have top loading.

[@robertthebruce2602]

So one thing I could see that would be a issue with a “top loading” shotgun is weather and debris issues. I could imagine getting a lot more chances of dirt, sand, water, hail, etc. with the loading gate faced upward. If you’re in winter environment you’re just having water go straight into the mag tube which can and will freeze unless you somehow make a perfect seal and nothing can get in (would love to see a Garand thumb torture test of that). Same if let’s say you’re getting shelled at with explosions all around you, you’re going to get a lot of debris potentially landing in that loading gate. I think if maybe we’re talking like shorty breaching shotgun, or even like a “shockwave” type thing it could work well. Were you’re expecting maybe only a handful of bad guys in a room, but maybe you just need to top off super quickly if you run out. But you’re less likely to have to be in a prolonged fight. Which at that point you’re going to go for something with more accuracy, rate of fire and ammo capacity

[@marktownsend2384]

The two drawbacks to top-loaders that I can see are the open port on the top of the gun which would allow any crap to drop down into the mechanism and I figure you're not going to want to mount the slide straight to the barrel, which means you'd need to add a whole separate set of rails for the slide to run on. So you'd get an increase in weight. On the upside of top-loaders, they might be handy for people who are using specialist ammo. Easier to just pop in a breeching round or similar.

[@NeverKetamine]

Top loaders were actually the norm in the USMC during the 2000s, but marines kept dancing in the moonlight so they were scrapped.

[@PartranTiger]

I think one consideration is that the gun becomes top heavy. A tube mag on the bottom doesn't try and tilt the gun one way or another with its loaded weight and changing weight as the gun fires rounds.

[@northmustang5220]

Pistol grip.

[@97oweb]

From a tactical standpoint Im always prefearing a tube feed shotgun over a magazine feed one It just gives me more flexibility of quickly loading a different round if I want to while still beeing able to shoot any moment if I need to Id love a pumpgun but unfortunatly here in austria they are prohibited so I only can have a semiautomatic one and several duble barreld ones for sport shooting

[@victoravril250]

Pump action shotguns are illegal but semi-automatic shotgun are legal? That's pretty odd

[@ryanupchurch9683]

I love my saiga. If I was knowingly goin to a fight that’s my pick. But my 887 is so much more practical for stowing in or on a vehicle. A p ack or a sheath. So the gun that I’m going to have on me is the better gun. Also no sidesaddle or any accessories. You can stow an 18 inch tube gun almost anywhere.

[@97oweb]

@@victoravril250 dond try to find a semsc in austrian gun law, there is none

[@nozrep]

5:00 the one time i ever need to speed reload my shotgun is super super fun but rare- when I am sitting in a field and if a massive flock of geese comes down into our decoy spread and the geese do what known in slang as a “tornado” where literally THOUSANDS of geese can decend onto your field and they swirl around in a circle while landing and you just shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot!!!!! And you get your limit of geese really really fast. Only happened to me once in my life goose hunting snow geese and I ran out of shells!😅 It is a sight to behold! Whether you are hunting or just observing nature it is a sight to behold! And you gotta rapid reload your shotgun.

[@littlehills739]

take a 2nd shot gun ?

[@jagx234]

Pita reloading a 2 round limited mag tube over and over. Dumb regs!

[@nozrep]

@@littlehills739no no no. take extra boxes of shells!!! Two boxes of shells is usually plenty for an average goose hunt. But like I said we ran out! And the story I described is a completely unpredictable occurrence in goose hunting. And, weighing your bag down with extra boxes of shells is also annoying. And like I said it only happened to me once in 40 years. But yah extra boxes of shells is the only way around that. Wait no😅. I am a terrible shot. Haha. If i was a good shot and actually got one goose per shot, I’d not have run out of shells. But I am not a great shot so I get a goose about every 6 shells😅

[@nozrep]

@@jagx234yup! dumb regs. In my state we have a 3 shell limit. It is stupid. A bag limit is a bag limit. If you are poacher and take more than the legal bag limit of birds… ain’t no shell limit in the shotgun going to stop that. You can poach birds just as easily with a three shell limit in Texas where I am.

[@jomomapistole1915]

This is my first time seeing this channel and this is my first video. As an avid Floridian gun enthusiast. I'm so glad to be here now!! Thank you.

[@DasAttorney]

Wouldn't it be easier for water and other matter to ingress? Like in a muddy rainy environment for example?

[@insertname3977]

If I remember correctly it wasn't designed for that sort of warfare. It was designed for heavily urbanised and boarding starships combat.

[@johnm3907]

​@@insertname3977wait. The human race has starships?

[@insertname3977]

@johnm3907 In the context of the fictional shotgun presented in this video which is why Ian is talking about why it's not a common design. Though technically we do have spaceships.

[@DasAttorney]

@@insertname3977 Fair enough. Although I've lived in London (very urbanised) and it rains all the time. It just seems like a weakness that stuff can fall into the chamber. I was thinking (using a different example); if you're fighting and a grenade/shell goes off near you. Then dirt from the ground that was thrown into the air could potentially fall into the mechanism. I agree it's a very cool looking video-game gun, but it looks like a crap-magnet to me.

[@Velkin999]

One thing not mentioned is that it adds unnecessary bulkiness to a pump shotgun to make the pump and tube not take up the same space on the gun.

[@advil000]

Nothing stopping the action slide from encircling the barrel instead of the mag tube. Same same.

[@Velkin999]

@@advil000 If someone could create a design to work that way then yes it would solve that.

[@tominva4121]

I believe there is a Russian shotgun that has a top tube, and is in production and sold as a combat shotgun. A few commercial variants actually made it to the US. I do seem to remember that the feed is from the side though instead of the top. Reportedly very good and strong design. I would buy one if I could ever find it.

[@ilyashchelkunov9351]

Well, there was Russian shotgun named of RMB-93 "Rys'" (Bobcat), at least that was commercial name in Russian market. The feed was exactly from top, quality was poor, barrel had a backlash, as it was actually reversed pump-action gun, when you need to push barrel forward, and then back with high hope that the cartridge will not be jammed or will not jump-out. Mag feed window was with specific door cover, which needs to be opened for tube reload. This part was made from thin stamped steel sheet, easy to bend or to brake. Those ones were not produced in quantities, as design had no single advantage, only nice collection of flaws.

[@agentcoedie7079]

Me explaining to the atf agent why i have such a thing. "Because i need it for home self defence against the Flood. just like the founding chief's intended. "

[@Alloyaha]

A moderate issue with top load, is the elevator. In bottom load gravity helps seat the shell within the elevator. In top load you would need additional components to prevent it from “falling” into the bolt/chamber prematurely, and inducing a jam. Especially when considering shot shells are rimmed. It’s totally doable- but just requires additional design work, which as Ian said, is more simply overcome with a box mag.

[@therhea8003]

There is a existing solution for that problem, the example being the shell carrier of the Letter lying and some 22 rifles. In this case, it would rise up, a shell would be pushed into the carrier, it would drop down and the bolt would push it into the chamber.

[@thealchemist9025]

Can you do a close-up review of the M90 please?

[@alexwcobb]

He did in a earlier video

[@themagachad]

My guess as to why a top feed maybe better would be drawbacks to a magazine: (1) The spring could inevitably fail (2) More prone to jamming (3) Capacity is limited by size, shape, and weight of a magazine The problem isn't drawbacks to the design, but as mentioned, widespread adoption. It's very niche, but may serve extremely well in police/military applications

[@Gottaculat]

I think another con to top-loading is exposure to battlefield fouling, like dirt/mud/debris falling from above, as well as water logging during rain. I don't know if immediate jamming would really be the result, but I imagine it would make weapon cleaning and maintenance more frequent. I wonder this, because bolt-actions are top-loading, and rifles like my Enfield No.4 MK1* have detachable box mags for easier cleaning, and since you aren't gonna be getting powder residue in the mag like you would with a semi-auto like a AR-15, that leads me to believe top-loading systems are more prone to falling debris/liquids. I could be totally wrong about that, but out of the hundreds of rounds I've put through my Enfield, the mag is still clean, so whatever would soil it must be environmental, not your munitions. Of course, any gun that gets dropped or slopped in the mud is gonna need cleaning, regardless of where it's getting loaded or ejecting, even the AR platform with the dust cover probably won't have the dust cover closed during a firefight.

[@PapaLyser]

shells were also made out of mostly cardboard untill the early mid-1900s.. so you really didn't want to get your shells wet

[@Gottaculat]

@@shadowopsairman1583 Yeah, I know, I said that, and I own one.

[@Gottaculat]

@@PapaLyser Yep. People forget that plastics are a relatively new technology. Heck, when my dad was in Vietnam, he was stationed on a Michelin rubber tree plantation; plastic/synthetic tires are very new. Now you got me wondering when plastic shot shells became common place. Also, plastic shot shells can still get ruined if submerged in water. Crimping isn't a guarantee that it's water tight. I suppose a simple remedy would be to drill some holes in the tube for water to drain, should waterlogging occur. Again, not sure how big of an issue this would be for a top-loading shotgun. Would need testing.

[@_AVAM]

The part about instictive shooting is completely wrong... Most clay shooters use double barrel shotguns, and the barrel that mostly fires first is the bottom one. The olympic champions in trap only use the bottom barrel

[@MrMagnaniman]

Yeah, that claim seemed a little weird to me. And that was before I thought about over-under shotguns. How would it be any less instinctive with the barrel on the bottom? You could still put a bead sight on the end of the tube and aiming would be exactly the same.

[@johnm3907]

Ian is right. In a under and over you are looking the whole way down the top barrel. You can't tell the difference between each barrel firing. With this gun you are looking down a tube that isn't the same length as the barrel.

[@_AVAM]

@@johnm3907 have a tube as long as the barrel and put a bead on the end...

[@MrMagnaniman]

@@johnm3907 The tube can easily be made to the same length as the barrel. Or longer, if desired. OR... hear me out here... Since it's 2024, you could put a red dot on it.

[@johnm3907]

@@_AVAM but what advantages would this have? None at all it would be just as slow to load. I don't need to look at my shotgun when I'm reloading so that's not one.

[@daredemontriple6]

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head. For whatever reasons, bottom-fed was the first idea, and it worked perfectly well. Nobody really had a reason to make it top-fed or even side-fed or something. Then somebody invented the box magazine and before long people started taking that rifle tech and making shotguns with it. Top fed shotguns don't exist, simply because nobody ever made them exist. Sure they are perfectly viable, but so are bottom-fed shotguns, and those already exist. Generally, what comes first is what sticks. To convince people to buy your new top-fed shotgun you'd need to demonstrate why your shotgun is obviously the superior choice - but the reality is the place the shells feed isn't really a point that matters. I think it's the same reason we so rarely see other similar exploration of gun mechanics. Almost all rifles, SMGs, Pistols, etc feed from a magazine inserted into the bottom. Historically we've seen guns that feed from the top (like the Bren and type 99) or the side (like the Sten and FG42) and even particularly strange arrangements (Like the P90 and Calico M950/M960). The result in basically every case was that a bottom-feed box magazine was just a better pre-existing solution. Most of those feed mechanisms work just as well, but they're novel and unrefined. In a different world, in a different time, maybe side-feed magazines would be the norm - but as it is someone somewhere put the first magazine well on the bottom, and everyone else just thought "Sure, works well enough. Don't see much reason to try and do otherwise"

[@RMills-y2b]

The first thing that came to mind was exposure to the elements. Gravity would help water and dirt settle in from the top, easier than the bottom, and that would be bothersome, especially with the shotguns used in trench warfare.

[@CyberChaos5490]

I needed to know

[@everythingknife8763]

Concept: Like the M14 with a detachable magazine and top loading capable. Like the SPAS-12 with semi-auto and pump. 1. Top loading shotgun with a tube above the barrel that works on pump action with a detachable magazine that works on both semi and pump. 2. A 5 position selector switch that rotates or slides through Safe, Semi, Pump Mag, Pump Tube, Safe would be sufficient. You could get away with 4 position and leave off the second Safe. I personally like the tang safety on Mossberg's. A quick glance tells you which of the 5 positions you are set to. An AR style rotating selector is also doable. Application: MILITARY 1, You almost always have more ammunition than magazines. Carrying a few extra loose shells is not a big deal. 2. You could load the tube and a mag before heading off base. Breaching rounds in the tube and combat rounds in mag. 3. The brass of the shells can be color coded so you can identify what type of shell is next in the tube. At most, a slight shift of the head or gun would let you see the end of the tube. Drawback: This would be a complicated, expensive, and heavy gun

[@dixen9116]

There's zero reason to have pump operation if you've already implemented semi-auto. Pump operation is to reduce complexity and maintenance, a dual use system would negate the pros.

[@everythingknife8763]

@@dixen9116 How about the reason of "I want to"?

[@jonathanhill6064]

Your average infantry man would break that in a day.

[@lemeres2478]

Video game visibility is also why shell casings eject to the left, directly in front of the players' faces. Which is typically a no no, since that would mean that a burning hot shell casing might go right into the user's face.

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

because the Czechs France nor England ever made a pump shotgun.. if they had im sure some sort of top mounted magazine would have been included..

[@bullast2046]

Excellent

[@MarkoDash]

wouldn't the Aussies be the more appropriate source, given the meme of Australia being upside down, and what they did with the owen gun.

[@jamesfairmind2247]

A full length magazine with a bead on top would be no different to lay on and swing on a flying bird than a normal over and under if you think about it. It would also have the advantage of a consistently better recoil manangement for follow up shots which of course is why the under barrel is always meant to be shot first on an over and under to reduce muzzle flip for the second shot.

[@johnm3907]

You fire bottom barrel first because it has a lighter choke than the top. Not because of recoil there's barely any difference I Could never tell.

[@jamesfairmind2247]

@@johnm3907 No you are missing the point, the reason WHY manufacturers place the lighter choke deliberately on the bottom barrel is exactly because it has a lower impact on muzzle flip and is meant to be fired first. Why do you think they don't place the light choke on the top barrel?. It doesn't matter that you can personally detect the difference, it is well proven by extensive testing which is why all gun makers do it.

[@johnm3907]

@@jamesfairmind2247 first time in 30 years iv heard that. I shoot bottom barrel first because it has more spread. Then top barrel with tighter pattern. Works for me.

[@johnm3907]

@@jamesfairmind2247 why is it that on side by sides the less choked barrel is set to fire first? Because of what I mentioned. And the muzzle climb from top barrel isn't so different than bottom. It does flip more but no way anyone can tell the difference when shooting

[@jamesfairmind2247]

@@johnm3907 You still don't get it. Yes the FIRST barrel always has the lighter choke. BUT that is WHY all over and under shotguns have that lighter choke on the bottom barrel because it is designed to be fired FIRST. It is physics, the lower barrel has a lower centre of inertia. I think Beretta probably do actually know what they are doing after 498 years of being in business my friend.

[@everybodysfavoritenobody]

So basically, on a whim, to be different and scifi futuristic bungee just put the loading dock on top lol

[@GYI5U]

Iconic by accident. Robt McLees the original designer for halo 1s guns was a weapons expert and he deserves more recognition.

[@cloudkitt]

Well, and like he said, it works for the reload animation too, since the top of the gun is what's always on the screen.

[@hedgehog3180]

Halo 1 was designed for the orignal Xbox which had a pretty poor resolution so if they wanted the reload animation to be visible, which you obviously do with a shotgun that's like the most iconic thing about them, then it had to be a top loader. If it was a bottom loader then the reloading animation would end up taking up the entire screen, which would obviously suck especially since you can reload it one shell at a time. Of course in later games like CoD MW this wouldn't be an issue because a new console generation had arrived by that time which could do 720p and computers at the time were doing 1080p so there was a lot more screen real estate.

[@rashiro]

Spot on with the lack of need to speed reload a shotgun. And no matter how fast you are, or how fancy you can slap a quad-load into the tube, magazine fed shotguns are still faster to reload.

[@FF7nero]

A top feeding shotgun, i imagine, would require more movement from the operator to load the shells. You raise your loading arm higher, your holding arm lower, turn the gun to the side to meet your loading arm quicker, etc. Now, these obviously amount to quite small increases in time, but as you had mentioned in modern contexts, speed is king. Those small additions in time add up. In historical or hunting contexts though, this matters less (again, as you mentioned). Historically, top loaders probably never came to be because A) the bead sits on the barrel so you can aim, and 2) "that gun sold well, lets copy em"

[@Steele47]

Interesting reasons. Forget speed loaders for tube shotguns, forget drum magazines, we need belt feed shotguns.

[@Vlask]

i'd say part of the reason is wars tend to lead innovation, shotguns really haven't changed in terms of function on the battlefield sense ww1, so until we get an all out war in trenches again or invaded by Aliens that like to charge close and do melee, I don't think we will really see any major changes to their larger production/innovation, even more so in the case as battles get further in distance with better rifles and or future weapons like railguns, shotguns will probably become more and more obscure on the battlefield, used more as a specialty weapon

[@ez230z]

It was alluded to in the original, but not mentioned in this video: it requires more parts and redundancies to build a top loading pump shotgun. if youre counting pennies, needing an entire other tube for your pump to slide on, is material, and weight that will quickly add up when manufacturing and shipping at scale.

[@Edax_Royeaux]

Are tubes expensive?

[@stephenpetroni2471]

As for which is the first intentionality designed assault rifle, this is beyond doubt Colonel Furrer’s 7.65x30mm intermediate cartridge M1921 prototype based on a conversion of a Furrer MPi 1919. The barrel is chambered for the steel Manipulierpatronen. Only one example is known and you’re welcome to film it when you next visit Malta.

[@アキレス-j2r]

same case with the Rhino revolver, cool gun but everyone already move to semi auto pistol

[@thestrangechannelofjeff7426]

I do believe revolvers will be made to the end of time. Like that guy's revolver in the avatar movie . Or the rhino in halo . Their will always be guys buying big gaint hand guns to be cool and unique

[@RiposteBK]

​@@thestrangechannelofjeff7426 iirc there's an Admiral in Halo lore that specifically carries a Desert Eagle, which would be well over 500 years old by his time! Even in-universe, people still find reasons to carry whatever they think is coolest when they can lmao

[@inwit594]

Entirely, 100% physically possible, but the practical difference is so small for an advantage so small isn't necessary. That's basically the gist of it.

[@zekekennedy9180]

I have a few guesses for why they haven't happened 1. possible jams: when you rack a normal shotgun back the shell is trapped under the barrel below the ejection port, if the shotgun was top fed then there would be a chance it could slip out the ejection port when you rack it back 2. sight radius: the tube magazine is shorter than most barrels sometimes significantly so, having to mount part of the rear sight to the magazine and try to elevate the front sight is more complicated then just mounting the sight on the barrel 3. tradition: with most rifle type guns before hand the barrel was on top of the stock, undermounting the barrel would have been abnormal so it may have not have occurred to those who invented it

[@The_Viscount]

Seems to me the top loading shotgun is like the semi-auto revolver: a solution in search of a problem. That said, both are super cool.

[@leonamuwu904]

The pump is also under the barrel, so I guess having the shells feed from the same place makes more sense than designing the pump to feed shells from over the barrel. Also makes the gun more compact.

[@hotshot8365]

A top loader with a top mag and underslung barrel will increase the chances of your hand accidentally touching a scorching hot barrel - requiring a big heatshield and a boatload of extra weight where you don’t want it.

[@kylehicks8097]

The cool factor is a big seller for me. I also feel like Kel-tec would be the ones to mass produce these. As a Halo player since 2001, I'd love to get my hands on an m90. Best shotgun in the franchise. (Halo CE and 2 if I remember correctly.)

[@brianheuschkel3391]

I think bottom loading makes more sense because you usually carry your ammunition below your rib cage whether it’s on a belt or pockets. This would reduce movement needed to put shells into the firearm.

[@honkie247]

I think the major reason is to keep the weather out, especially rain in very cold weather that freezes and locks the mag tube up.

[@Demmrir]

I've had a lot of people comment at me at 3-gun that my quad loaders are impractical for the real world. My response is always, "My shotgun has 9 shells in it; if I ever need to reload in the real world, I'm screwed anyway." Glad to see that opinion shared in the vanishingly small number of cases where reloading would be necessary comment.

[@DuckStuffer]

The only issue I could see is the potential risk for burning your hands since the hand guard is around the barrel. If someone isn’t holding it correctly, their fingers or hands may have a higher chance of accidentally touching the barrel during shooting.

[@evanulven8249]

If I remember right, the M90 is supposed to be in 8-guage, loaded primarily with flachette or explosive shells.

[@SuperFederalReserve]

The only design I think that could see a big top load advantage would be some kind of integrated rotary box so you could feed shells via a strip clip, or an integrated vertical box that that might avoid certain laws restricting detachable mags.

[@SuperFederalReserve]

Thinking like a 12 gauge sks lol

[@syllycatface]

I feel like the "its easier to use/aim birding with the bead directly on the barrel" probably didn't even come into putting the tube underneath, It's much more likely that just because rifles were designed that way they just automatically did the same thing when extended round shotguns were first created.

[@WavingWorld]

"Why don't we have top loading shotguns?" Is a question I never knew I had..

[@remielpollard787]

Tube mags still have their place. I can carry different kinds of shells, and in a pinch, quickly swap one out for a breaching shot or dragon breath or beanbag round as and when I need it, without having to change out an entire magazine, which itself is pre-loaded and I might not have on with what I need in it.

[@ultramarinus2478]

Quick loading (preferably non-existent belt-fed) shotgun is ideal for drone defence shooting. "point defence" based mostly on spread of the lead in the air, instead of precision.

[@c4ns3r53]

Today on Forgotten Archeotech Weapons from the Age of Strife we have Magos Dominos Ian Alpha-343 analzing and reviewing an ancient shotgun for then to create a pull of "who sends the best toaster photo will win the funny gun"

[@Mykaelous]

My guess is because of the traditional design of bead sights. Bead sights on a shotgun are mated to the barrel. Swapping the position increases the cost to manufacture because the sights now need to be precisely aligned with the barrel. Nowadays with adjustable sights this probably doesn’t matter so much.

[@calebacosta959]

My first thought was grime and dirt. I just had a pretty crazy hailstorm the other day. The thought of the action filling with rain, hail, dust, or any combination of those, while the gun is shouldered is legitimate. My other thought is target acquisition. Doing a tactical reload while moving down a hallway or guarding a door would suck if you had to place your hand in front of your face. Loading under the gun without taking your finger off the trigger or blocking sight lines would be a major hindrance. Shotguns are the best weapons best suited for a tactical reload, your gun can stay topped while always ready.

[@tedley70]

Before you even said it, I was like “how is Ian reviewing an M90?”

[@axlitEels]

"You know what's even better than perfect? Standardized"

[@chrishugs6173]

Literally my brain scrolling through youtube and read the title of this video, "wait a minute....why don't we have top loading shotguns?"