The M1 Garand's Mysterious 7th Round Stoppage

[@SonicsniperV7]

"A tiny undocumented change that messed up everything" Ah yes, programming.

[@mike-uj3uu]

;

[@Temp0raryName]

Ahh, yes, life.

[@jameshammons2354]

.

[@weth3844]

@@mike-uj3uu i hate this, just a single fucking ";" and you're screwed (ofcourse if you're working in visual studio or something smart like that, it is no longer a problem)

[@mike-uj3uu]

@@weth3844 cnc

[@SM-cq3wf]

"they stopped doing that in the 60s when they closed down Springfield but that's a story for another time" I would really like to hear that story

[@LincolnUtah]

I was browsing the comments while watching the video and he said this at the exact same time as I read this comment

[@AndrewAMartin]

With the end of the government-owned arsenals, the military just sends out specifications to private manufacturers, so it's on the manufacturer to figure out how to make the weapon to specification. The military just keeps the specs... Except it probably works the opposite way just as much or more -- a manufacturer develops the product, then sells it to the military to fill some perceived need...

[@lukelee5385]

Ian actually had video a few years ago about the history of Springfield which talked about this event, just search it in the channel and it should be there

[@1337penguinman]

Military industrial complex in action. More profit if you own the design.

[@minigunuser25]

@@AndrewAMartin It absolutely does happen that way oddly frequently, companies offer all sorts of whacky stuff in competitions, sometimes not even meeting all of the requirements. Especially with vehicles

[@aaronhammond7297]

"M1s show up at camp Perry, and just malfunction left and right"... well, not left, just right.

[@warel5730]

exactly my thoughts

[@mattfleming86]

Choked on my coffee a little 😆 Thanks. I needed that.

[@MusingMageofDisney]

Left right left!

[@archiebunker3686]

But it was thinking left

[@meansartin]

You're a funny guy, Sully.

[@VikingrBerserker]

THIS. This right here. This is the video I am going to present to my engineering team on how "one little change" can cripple an entire organization's efforts and why documentation of changes is so vitally important.

[@xm210c]

Except that in machinist terms that "tiny change" was actually a pretty large deviation from the blueprints. That looks like a solid 5 to 6 millimeters of error when machinists usually dabble in hundredths and tenths of a millimeter.

[@HunterTeddy010]

They also work in "Engineer dumb, me smart, me make easy"

[@htodd4014]

Engineering is "make complicated things easy using math" machining is" what! Why wise glasses man bring funny blue paper"

[@Larken42]

If your impressions of tradesmen is engineer > tradesmen, I’d like to remind you that no amount of paper and math will make parts from designs. Also many ingenious things have come from regular guys with a knack for mechanisms. TLDR: respect where respect is due.

[@TheStewieOne]

That's why I live by it. "Small things cause big problems."

[@defroes6792]

"Now Julian, you mustn't let on that the Garand rifle has a seventh round stoppage. If the press finds out it could doom the project." "Ok, brother. How about I write a book about it?" "Julian, no!"

[@silentscorn5072]

Julian yes.

[@steeljawX]

Julian: "Okay brother dearest, I won't. . . . 'Dear diary, today my big brother fixed a f*ck up at the factory.'"

[@NutjobGTO]

@@silentscorn5072 JULIAN ALWAYS YES!!!

[@warrenokuma7264]

After it's adopted, please? Sure.

[@frijolesjenkins6656]

Julian: No, you cant just write about it. Brother: Lmao printer go brrrrrrrrrrrrr

[@Candrsenal]

This injustice shall not stand!

[@Tuning3434]

Othias can't Ian

[@josiahgibson6373]

War were declared?

[@michaelpytel3280]

From Eibar Spain Knock-off Blue "Patented Plastic Pokeys".

[@christopherreed4723]

And so it was that the Great Patented Plastic Pokey War began...

[@HombreImpera]

@@josiahgibson6373 War were declared.

[@vDullahan]

Getting a jam instead of a ping on the last round is the gun equivalent of blue ball

[@calvingreene90]

Next to last.

[@johnh.tuomala4379]

I've seen this seventh-round stoppage. It was at a W.W.II reenactment, an American GI reenactor was blazing away (blank ammo of course) at the "Germans", When his M1 Garand stopped firing on the seventh round. I wasn't counting the shots, but I saw no empty clip eject. He just hunkered down and cleared the stoppage. Good thing that it wasn't real combat.

[@Madadader]

I made a meme about this thanks to you

[@liger7275]

Imagine the disappointment of the German patiently waiting for the ping to jump out and shoot you, but the ping never comes.

[@vDullahan]

@@liger7275 "Hans, where is ze ping sound? Are they out of ammo?!"

[@herknorth8691]

I've been machining for over nine years. Engineers who don't understand machining and come up with designs that can't actually be built are a real thing. They're perplexed by the very concept and say "I thought it up so you must be able to make it!" We call them "imagineers".

[@MrEazyE357]

I think Disney has a patent on that word.

[@actually5004]

Disney has a trademark on that word.

[@herknorth8691]

@@MrEazyE357 Huh, I'd never heard that before. I just thought that a coworker made that up!

[@stewieatb]

The Engineer's Poem: myjeeprocks.com/forums/forum/kick-the-can/jeep-jokes-trivia/23731-a-designers-poem

[@811brian]

If the engineer was able to build a fully functional prototype, and give tooling specs, then the machinist should be able to refine the building process.

[@zachelkins1229]

I had a situation like this back in high school. I was taking a CAD class and one of the final projects for the class was to make up the frame for a little solar powered car from balsa wood. The CAD class would submit the project to the teacher who would then take it to the next class over to the shop class and have them build it. I had asked early on if there were any special considerations I needed to make concerning the tools the shop class had and was told "they should have tools to make whatever you can come up with so long as it isn't physically impossible." I submitted my project and then he noticed the inset I had made for the motor (to reduce weight and keep the motor from slipping or moving as it crossed the somewhat rough ground outside for the final test). He was a little upset until I quoted back what he had told me about their tools and then he responded with "yeah and they're gonna have to use every one of them to make this work." TL;DR it is always a good lesson to not treat a production shop like a black box where projects go in and products come out.

[@billd.iniowa2263]

Have you ever done any actual machining? I think every engineer should have to have real hands on experience before they're ever even allowed near a T-square, lol! ;-)

[@zachelkins1229]

@@billd.iniowa2263 at that time the closest I'd been to machining was Lego technics and some plastic modeling... which is to say at the time I had no applicable practical experience

[@billd.iniowa2263]

@@zachelkins1229 Well, everyone has to start somewhere. I take it you now have had some machine-time? Has it helped in your engineering career?

[@zachelkins1229]

@@billd.iniowa2263 Some, but in my case they both ended up being "a path not taken" though I often wonder what could have been. Still in any future engineering projects I might under take the experience would, I think, make the endeavor if not more successful much more practical and likely to be successful.

[@billd.iniowa2263]

@@zachelkins1229 I'm sure it will. Good luck to you then. I know about the path not taken. Or in some cases, the path denied. Ah well, thats life isnt it.

[@geodkyt]

So it came down to a violation of MIL-TFD-41. Make It Like The Friggin' Drawing, For Once.

[@ScottKenny1978]

Stealing this.

[@wilfriedklaebe]

Underrated comment.

[@thekommandokookbook8577]

Gold

[@bldlightpainting]

Communicate like a truly intelligent gentlemen of moral character, not some ignorant disgusting street thug.

[@sorrenblitz805]

@@bldlightpainting who was speaking like a street thug? I've seen print designers speak like this all the time growing up with a Grampa in industrial IT.

[@thunderchild1897]

Ahh yes, the arcane art of translating between engineer and machinist.

[@riograndedosulball248]

Making the machinist care about what he's doing is the real fight ~me, a machinist

[@ShadrachVS1]

Usually in this discussion there will be a fallback to "It works in CAD."

[@Tuning3434]

@@riograndedosulball248 So true, there are only so many fucks a machinist can give in a day. Better be sure you don't waste those fucks on stupid stuff.

[@shaunbrennan5281]

Tuning3434 Never a truer word were spoke .

[@krp-xe3hw]

@@ShadrachVS1 I work as an engineer in a R&D group. Our designers fall back on that everytime they order prototype parts that don't fit. "It looked fine in Catia" is a running joke within our test and evaluation group.

[@_Hofnarr]

As a technical writer and documentation specialist this video is incredibly validating. I've spent over 20 years on the floor with machinists and engineers watching everything, talking to everyone, and taking all the notes. I've had to justify the existence of my job many many times and next time it comes up I'm going to show them this video and say "If I'd been there, watching and talking, the removal of the tab due to the extra cut would have been documented and this problem would have been solved almost as soon as it came up." I've always said that my job is to translate engineering and workshop ingenuity into something management can understand.

[@spvillano]

Just send them to the Wikipedia article on Fogbank (a nuclear weapon component). One thing wasn't documented, took a decade and $200 million to finally reinvent that critical component. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogbank The last batch of the original was last made in 1989, so they figured they'd upgrade a plastic foam to aerogel. Missed, one step and a contaminant that turned out crucial. Oh well, at least recovering from that mistake was cheap. I'll just get my coat...

[@Dudeguymansir]

I appreciate your work, and the associated mentality. Thank you.

[@challengingyou212]

Sorry but your job is redundant. A good engineer can do your job as its part of theirs.

[@Guido_XL]

@@challengingyou212 That may seem like a natural perception, but it does not have to be. I agree that an engineer needs to take charge of his own documentation, but, in an organisation where several different components are merged into one product, the role of a supervisor and project manager can do wonders. Yes, the engineers should work as one, but that is theory, not practice. And yes, there may be many cases that prove the point that this theory actually works, but it isn't always so.

[@challengingyou212]

@@Guido_XL i just think we disagree. I've worked on too much shoddily engineered crap from both local and international corprate engineers and they rarely think about the whole picture thus making anything they designed extremely difficult to do any maintenance or parts replacement.

[@tywinlannister8015]

Been following your channel for two years - never even held a gun or even had any interest in guns before. But I simply find your work fascinating. Especially the history and engineering bits. As a history afficionnado and scientist I love this.

[@KageMinowara]

I don't know how you could have been expected to have held a gun seeing as how you live in a world with 13th Century levels of technology.

[@joekurtz8303]

In most of Ian's videos, when he does a field strip & assembly, you can learn alot from a novice standpoint. Somewhat better than old print magazines back in the day.

[@tywinlannister8015]

@@joekurtz8303 Yeah I know. That's one of the things I like actually. I'm a theoretical physicist, but looking at engineering problems gives me a nice change of scenery. I like to listen to Ian's videos to unwind. Nothing like a practical problem after a bunch of very theoretical ones in the day.

[@favorites6693]

Here’s hoping you find a friend who can take you out to a range for some shooting. Some of my best range trips have involved getting a few science and history teachers together. Years ago I shot w some Kaiser Steel guys who could talk your ear off about steel production.

[@tywinlannister8015]

@Christie Malry Exactly right. I try to vary my activities to avoid getting locked down the same trains of thought for that very reason.

[@brianwright9514]

I'm an engineer. Shit like this happens all the time. We've started actually analyzing how a part is made before we move it from one supplier to a new supplier in order to document "off-book" design changes: we've had the problem where a part worked fine for years and then we go to a new supplier who builds to print and suddenly the part doesn't work anymore.

[@brucewelty7684]

All to true. Or switching an operator (person) and the new perp is weaker so they bend an existing part for their ease of access. Then the downstream guy writes engineering up for the defect.

[@brianwright9514]

@@brucewelty7684 that's my favorite... Manufacturing defects that get assigned to design. 🤦‍♂️

[@brianwright9514]

@@AdamantLightLP ha! Choose your own adventure welding!

[@sartainja]

I read that they still have blueprints for the Saturn V rockets. Though, they doubt if they built one, it would operate since all the fellows that iron out bugs are all gone on.

[@spvillano]

@@brucewelty7684 happens in research as well. Some bleeding edge something is discovered, but nobody can replicate the procedure, despite it being painstakingly documented. Not even the original researcher. Only to find, after much hair tearing and finally, someone asked around, one of the undergraduate students assisting prepared step X in the process and when interviewed, one tiny step was never documented. Once that was replicated, the replication efforts worked every time. Not an isolated thing, either, it's actually quite common in scientific research.

[@-7-Angry-Rats-]

PLEASE for the love of god, never stop using that little blue hand. That was purely amazing.

[@alvianthehollowed8997]

You should have called it "patented plastic pokey" tho , its mandatory

[@enjibkk6850]

@@alvianthehollowed8997 hoooo that's the pokey thing... now I can understand those other comments, thanks!

[@vaclav_fejt]

@@enjibkk6850 That means you've never watched an episode of C&Rsenal... I highly recommend it.

[@Tuning3434]

@@enjibkk6850 OTHIAS IS UPSET!!!

[@darkiee69]

That's a must when dealing with a Garand. 😁

[@robert8984]

"They never documented the change." - CLASSIC ERROR

[@LuvBorderCollies]

I've been hearing statement for years from my wife. The cause: programmers being too lazy to document every change they make. So things go wrong and nobody knows why plus nobody knows who caused it. So lazy/incompetent programmers can slide by a long time before they're caught and canned.

[@MrAntice]

@@LuvBorderCollies This often comes down to allotted time. I'll happily document my code, but if they ain't paying for the time it takes to do so, then that documentation won't exist. it's not laziness, It's an unwillingness to work for free. If the customer want tests and documentation, then they got to pay for it. The time asked for this is right there in the frigging estimate. but for some reason, sales and customers seem to always agree on that time not being necessary to spend in order to save on costs. They always keep asking: "why do you need to spend so much time on this? it's just a small change". (Pointy haired boss voice for flavour) "No I cant just add another key to the database boss, It requires us to migrate all the existing data to account for that new frigging key". "I want 5 hours for the change, and 30 for migrating the existing data and testing that everything else using that same data still works as intended. (hint: It wont), "and another 5 to fix the documentation because the last change we made was undocumented because we didn't get any time for it".

[@davidweikle9921]

This is a perfect example of why process engineers are so meticulous about their jobs. Changing any part of the process can have an effect that is detrimental in manufacturing or construction.

[@vonskyme9133]

As a process engineer, I can guarantee we're not always any more sure of what we're doing than other people - we're just better at hiding it. I have literally used the sentence 'You already tried increasing the polyacrylic acid, and it didn't work? Drop it then, and see if that does the trick.' More than once. Educated guesswork is a wonderful thing, and sometimes despite our best efforts processes are... more art than science. Yes, solvent extraction, I'm talking about you...

[@mattfleming86]

Also why machinist want to murder them when what they want can't feasibly be done. Reality is it takes a group of brilliant specialist to 'invent' something special, but the concept/patent designer gets all the swagger.

[@tzyijiang9884]

Senior staff members get high pay for good reason. However, today's managers do not understand. They just want to reduce operation cost and hire cheapest employees they can find.

[@davidweikle9921]

@@vonskyme9133 fair points, but as I have heard many times before, at different job sites in different industries: "If you have an idea to improve the process, let us know first."

[@marklibby4629]

"Scale up" no matter what the product or industry......is a bitch.

[@737215]

Anyone who's worked in software knows what a "hard coding" solution is, and this modification of the follower AND having a specialist handling all reloads ABSOLUTELY counts as hard coded solutions.

[@sheilaolfieway1885]

yep one wrong or missing bracket or other character can make a huge diffrence.

[@AndrewBlucher]

Nup. This is telling the people of doing the demo to follow the script TO THE LETTER.

[@JenniferinIllinois]

Ian bringing out the C&Rsenal 'patented, plastic and pokey'. Hehehe...

[@LukeBunyip]

I think it was a French PPP. Twas blue, after all...

[@Grobut81]

But it's more different in blue.

[@RaDeus87]

It's blue so it obviously doesn't infringe on the patent 😉 IIRC Othias has a greenish yellow pokey.

[@d33b33]

It works. Ian's actual finger is too big.

[@Tuning3434]

But.. but, but... I thought Ian can't Othias?

[@ditzydoo4378]

Julian Hatcher was not just "in" the ordnance department, Major General Julian S. Hatcher would become the Chief of Ordnance at Aberdeen Proving Grounds Maryland. I was a Senior service school instructor of small arms at Hatcher-Hall APG for a number of years.

[@atenachos6282]

That Walter Campbell guy better have gotten a raise.

[@JohnHughesChampigny]

Probably got a nice letter from the boss. Money? You expect them to give him money?

[@deezboyeed6764]

@@JohnHughesChampigny back then hell yea

[@micwclar]

Maybe a better quality gold watch at retirement and a case of good Scotch at the time?

[@Gotterdammerung05]

@@deezboyeed6764 they didn't pay the guy who invented the rifle a penny, you expect a guy who did some troubleshooting to make bank?

[@deezboyeed6764]

@@Gotterdammerung05 Make bank no, little bonus sure. rest of the world would.

[@johnthomas-km2bf]

I assume that the imminent shoot-out between Othias and Ian over this will involve guns lubricated with goose grease, and which shoot ammo made from materials that existed for 3 weeks in 1891.

[@Makrillol]

You should have a custom made miniature tactical glove for that pointer hand.

[@hoosierplowboy5299]

😅

[@peterg1448]

the hand of gun Jesus ?

[@johns7734]

Good engineers have a saying: "There are NO small changes."

[@billd.iniowa2263]

Machining is all about numbers. A specific length, a specific width, and a specific height. Each one to a specific tolerance. And if you stack those tolerances up too many times you get garbage.

[@Bird_Dog00]

@@billd.iniowa2263 That's part of my daily work. Stamping tool. Have 3 or 4 parts, each with a +/- 0.01mm tolerance stacked, then give me up to 3 - what's the english term for it? calibrating washer? tuning disc? basicaly a flat plate of metall (usually hardend steel) to put under a die or a punch to get them to the right hight - in 0.2mm increments, - also with a +/- 0.01mm tolerance ofc - and tell me to calibrate the final hight of the die or punch to within +/- 0.02mm ... Luckily, often you don't need such fine tolerances as the documentation states...

[@billd.iniowa2263]

@@Bird_Dog00 I guess we'd call those shims. But finely ground!

[@Tuning3434]

@@kenbrown2808 Yes, good robust designs are not what the computer tells you 'just works', but it allows margin for the 'f***-up factor' nobody ever bothers to think about it cause it 'never happens'. Then suddenly it starts mattering if it's a Monday, or the postal services took a certain route because statistics and normal distributions start to work against you. You never want to make your design that critical, cause you end up in a the real world where certainty is a fluid concept, and it is extremely time-consuming and costly to explore that fluidity.

[@ScottKenny1978]

@@Bird_Dog00 "shim" is the word we use in English for a piece like that. Might even call it a "shim washer"

[@singami465]

This is like bugfixing, but with physics.

[@hbtm2951]

This, this is why the internet is good.

[@nielsieboy124]

That's basically engineering

[@MrHanslustich]

That stoppage totally sounded like when me and the boys get a weird bug report

[@warrenokuma7264]

Engineering is like: We fixed every way the device could go wrong, so now it works.

[@absalomdraconis]

@@nielsieboy124 : And it's why the old fad of hiring programmers to implement something designed in a modeling language isn't as talked about anymore- it's paying engineers (even if the budget end...) to do a drafter's job.

[@TheChosenOne896]

You have answered my question on to why my M1 jams on the 7th round. I read the fix is loading the ammo left handed and that solved it. But never knew the reason. Funny how a late production M1 can still have the same issue.

[@CmdrMiskyavine]

They even have that happen in Band of Brothers during the battle of bloody gultch. Winters's M1 does it its really fast if you blink you miss it. Its while hes trying to talk Blythe out of the fox hole.

[@CmdrMiskyavine]

My bad it was Blythes gun could just be a coincidental jam tho. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIjTm3dtZpaaa68

[@SinginShooter]

That looked like a stovepipe.

[@bones1x285]

They were using blanks which are less reliable. I believe there were a lot of stoppages on that episode. I think its because they had the wrong ammo/guns were under gassed or something.

[@Panzermeister36]

The 7th round jam Ian discusses in this video is a jam that occurred upon the action trying to load the 7th round into the chamber. In that video from Band of Brothers, the rifle jams right AFTER firing the 7th round. So it's not the same problem. It looks more like failure to eject, etc.

[@NoThankYouReally]

Here's an easy one to see- 2:07, Winters is getting ready to do some shooting...uh oh.... kzbin.info/www/bejne/jXi7kK2rnd6IZpY&lc=UgyC0wrDigqDj_B5xV94AaABAg

[@maxcactus7]

I encountered similar problems 30 years ago as a young carpenter. Carpenters can't always build what the architect draws and sometimes discussions and even hands-on illustrations have to be made to demonstrate why what's drawn on paper can't be done, or has to be done differently than is drawn. It helps to be able to speak the others language in solving these types of problems between design and execution.

[@maxcactus7]

@CipiRipi00 Hilarious, Clip! In fact, I worked with some very brainy, knowledgeable architects who seemed to understand as much about my skill set as I probably did about theirs. It made for some fun jobs.

[@3of11]

“Was not documented” Cries in ISO9001

[@Zretgul_timerunner]

Another americanism "standards why whould we use that"

[@foobar1979]

@@Zretgul_timerunner The standards didn't exist when this problem happened. In fact problems like this during the war are why the standards were made.

[@Zretgul_timerunner]

@@foobar1979 yet america refuses to follow international measurements to name a few so no again you still refuse to change also (quick quip there existed standards long prior to ww2) very long prior to the creation of the garand.

[@Benjy52]

@@Zretgul_timerunner It appears you don’t like America too much

[@Zretgul_timerunner]

@@Benjy52 I dont like people lying about history. And to this day the us which signs all the standards more often then not doesnt end up follow them creating issues for those of us who hafto deal with their nonsense

[@navret1707]

Proof of the old adage: “when all else fails, follow the directions.”

[@catfish552]

"Where's the ping? There was supposed to be a Jerry-alerting ping!"

[@1970bosshemi]

Yeaaah you can’t hear that shit in a fire fight

[@Tunkkis]

@@1970bosshemi Sure, but never let facts get in the way of a good joke.

[@ENCHANTMEN_]

@@1970bosshemi it's true, my granddad told stories about how he and obama were in the middle of a battle in ww2 and his rifle went ping and all of the germans stopped shooting and walked over to point and laugh

[@notahotshot]

@@ENCHANTMEN_, can confirm, my great grandson was there, he was the German who pointed first, then laughed last and loudest.

[@DelGTAGrndrs]

@Christie Malry my Japanese nephew was there as well on the ensuing banzai charge

[@milesfinch]

This is one of the reasons the community loves Ian, his in depth analysis of the mechanics and engineering involved in firearms.

[@bulukacarlos3571]

Excellent! I have worked on the interface from blueprints to the machine shop (not in the arms industry) and indeed that "translation" from drawing to metal (and vice versa) is fundamental. Greetings from Patagonia Argentina.

[@AM-hf9kk]

Works the same way in electronics. If the wiremen "know" the drawing is "wrong" and automatically "correct" it... then that "correction" is corrected in testing out of habit. When a new Engineer comes along and says "Hey, this symbol is stupid and doesn't mean what you're saying it means and there's no tracking or explanation" and starts using the CORRECT symbol, with explanatory notes, it fouls up the whole system. THAT Engineer then gets blamed for an institutionalized error and canned.

[@Keenasalways]

My lecturer told of a similar problem that occurred when he was a young machinist. An engineer designed a polymer part that needed machining to a tolerance that was actually less than the thermal expansion coefficient of the material. When asked at what temp the material was supposed to be at whilst being machined, the engineers' response was 'Huh?' Much hand-holding and explanation was needed before the engineer grasped the problem.

[@jakobholgersson4400]

Could you do one on the Swedish K's 8th-round jolt? Supposedly it's very controllable in full auto, except for every eight round which kinda goes wherever it wants to go.

[@notcomedytv8854]

Thats a good one

[@scott91575]

That was great. As an engineer myself that is the story of the majority of the issues we run into. Small little changes done by people thinking little things don't matter. Today we document every little change to every part but even then we still run into the occasional issue where a supplier does what is seemingly a harmless change and suddenly we have massive issues. Few people understand how much one little thing can make a massive difference.

[@zstewart]

I think its worth being clear about this: the clip is symmetric in rotation, so if the top round is on the right and you flip the clip over, the top round will still be on the right. You can switch the clip from having the top round on the right to the left by e.g. removing the top round and inserting it back on the bottom of the clip, but once the clip has all 8 rounds in it, rotating it will not change which side the top round is presented on. There is no 'up', but there are clips loaded with a right-side top round, and clips loaded with a left-side top round.

[@wasdwazd]

My guess is they pre-loaded all the clips and painted an arrow to indicate which end goes in.

[@zstewart]

@@wasdwazd what I mean is that if you pre-load a clip so the top round is on the left, it doesn't matter which way you insert it. No matter which side is up, the top round is on the left.

[@wasdwazd]

@@zstewart Ah shit I misread what you said and I was visualizing it all wrong. Sorry, I'm totally sleep deprived.

[@YaBoyDayes]

"You have run out of ammo." "How drill Sargeant?" "You shot it all private"

[@alexreifschneider6709]

That's why every assemblyperson and machinist should only be a short walk from the guy that did the drawings. Think skunkworks.

[@eljefeamericano4308]

I agree! I used to do a lot of metal fabrication and welding work, and all of my department's customers were right around the corner from my shop. Any issues with the drawings or the concept could be resolved in a few minutes, most days.

[@earlyriser8998]

That must have been part of the magic of the early skunks work....engineers next to machinest

[@ulvschmidt7174]

@@earlyriser8998 and engineers that were machinists

[@jero37]

I am the in house. I fix these issues regularly. But most of our parts are outsourced.

[@GermanTopGameTV]

Better yet, the person who drew the plans should also be able to set up the machining. Training your engineers the basics of machining is key to a successful production run - which is why it is mandatory to work on a shop floor during university where I study. If you know the pain of making a internal features to tolerance on a lathe, you'll reconsider your design to see if it is actually really necessary to have it.

[@Vsor]

It is also just as important to have machinists in the engineering office.

[@Rinasoir]

It's Plastic! It's Pokey! It's Good for you and Me! It's the Patented Plastic Pokey Hand! Gun Moses tested, Gun Jesus approved! *Now available in Blue!

[@palt7036]

ok

[@raatchet1292]

Othias is gonna have a field day...lol

[@not-a-theist8251]

Gun Moses lol that's a good one

[@JerryEricsson]

Ah yes, there is nothing like a soldier to come up with a new way to criticize new ideas. In 1970 when we got our M-16's for training, every one used to say "It's MATEL! It's SWELL!" Made more sense if you grew up in the 60's and watched Saturday Morning Cartoons!

[@Gottaculat]

I have an old gun that would just refuse to run ammo reliably, and I identified the issue as the feed ramp was catching the case mouth as the round chambered. So I very carefully beveled the edge of the feed ramp, just enough so there wasn't an abrupt edge. I'm talking an adjustment of maybe 0.001" at most. I polished the bevel to a mirror finish, and next thing I know, it's feeding reliably.

[@nathanlewis5682]

I have a marlin 81 that would not feed into the chamber properly. I thought it was faulty chamber at first. Then then I looked at slow motion. Turns out it was the cartridge lifter. After it picked up the cartridge from the magazine tube, the timing got screwed up and the cartridge lifter stalled partway up after the bolt grabbed the cartridge to push forward. I took the cartridge lifter out, used 800 grit sandpaper to smooth out rough edges then 1000 to 2000 grit then the cloth wheel on the dremel. Put everything back back on. It worked.

[@douglasbrinkman5937]

Engineer: we can draw it! Machinist: we can’t make it the way you drew it. Slap!

[@MrKronikDeception]

It's the circle of LIIIIFE

[@Glaaki13]

@@MrKronikDeception and why we in Denmark have a education for craftsmen to be a link between the 2

[@frankteunissen6118]

Ah yes. I came across this once. I had to approve and release a drawing and, being a physicist, I have no bloomin’ idea about technical drawings, but anyway. So I give this drawing a once over, look, … look again and say: “I may be wrong, but it looks as if there is no way you can get a spanner on this nut here.” Oops!

[@robertfandel9442]

Layout pattern maker metal trades. Same problem here.

[@alanfhall6450]

Does this mean that MC Escher was an engineer??!

[@AVATARComander]

That "person" is now known as a manufacturing engineer, basically a technically inclined machinist that the manufacturer gives enough authority that the engineers will listen to them alternatively you could have some very hands on engineers

[@Theonixco]

An engineer that listens to a machinist or mechanic? Those things exist?

[@W1ldTangent]

I know engineers I wouldn't trust with power tools, best to let them keep banging on their keyboards.

[@DionMiller-x3f]

yes, as a young mfg engineer I constantly talked to the machine operator and lisened to them. got in trouble from my boss for it. "those guys do not know anything! you are the engineer"

[@colbeausabre8842]

Shows the expertise that was lost when MacNamara (After being a pencil pusher in DC in WW2, he was president of Ford during the Edsel Fiasco, which qualified him to run the Vietnam War) shut down Springfield. His response, "They'll move to Rock Island" They didn't and over 80 percent of the workforce quit

[@Ontheregz]

Not to mention he killed the sr71, all it’s variants and had all the tooling destroyed 😭

[@franciscopadilla4525]

The same expertise that deliberately sabotaged the M16 trials because "mUh wOoD aNd iRoN"

[@509Gman]

I’m sure that workforce never worked another day in their life at some private company, right?

[@colbeausabre8842]

@@509Gman They found work, of course, but most not in the firearms industry and, anyway, what was lost was the critical mass of experience and knowledge that existed at Springfield

[@robertmendez2548]

Don't forget about McNamara's moron's also. The guy was a real idiot...

[@oswaldjh]

This is why a "Golden Unit" should be supplied in the production package as a direct reference.

[@Angliscwer93]

That little blue hand was amazing. Please keep using it.

[@CanalTremocos]

There are suspicions they're doing a big cover-up, which they aren't, so they design a big cover-up and all suspicions go away. This reads like a deleted scene from Dr Strangelove.

[@kellymouton7242]

They'll see the big board!

[@Zajuts149]

"The 7th round of the 7th Gun" is the name of my new heavy metal album:)

[@paragonca9736]

Man, getting a jam near the end of a M1 Garand clip would be one of the biggest blue-balls ever

[@sadwingsraging3044]

Bet we will never get this question on Trivial Pursuit unfortunately.... **sad**

[@jubuttib]

There really should be an alternative to the Genus edition, the Guns edition.

[@germaxicus6670]

@@jubuttib I'd buy 5!!!

[@jubuttib]

@@germaxicus6670 I mean it could work quite well. Wouldn't even really have to change categories much. Blue, geography: Questions related to specific gun geographies, like Chinese mystery pistols, Khyber Pass guns, weapons used in Africa, etc. Pink, Entertainment: Movie guns and weaponry Yellow, history: Historical weapon developments, milestones, historical figures, historical debacles (like the M-16 powder change) Brown, arts and literature: Weapons as expression and art, inlays, engravings, etc. Green, science & nature: Questions about the mechanics and physics (and chemistry) of weapons Orange, Sports & Leisure: Sporting firearms and shooting sports related questions

[@shaunbrennan5281]

jubuttib Hell yeah! Another project for Ian wot!

[@germaxicus6670]

@@jubuttib that would be awesome! We need funding for this!

[@ronwalsh]

Thanks for this one Ian. I will have to look at my Garand to see if it is a repaired receiver. I just love the sound when the en block shoots out the top of the rifle. Semper Fi.

[@SFish-wr4kh]

The whole point at about 10:12 is something I struggle with every day at work. Engineers who have never touched a machine in their lives and don't understand that sometimes making a tiny change has HUGE ramifications.

[@Thinkle911]

had a similar case, where a contractor thought it would be smarter to adapt the welding of a heat exchanger in a way, which was better for him. Unfortunately in his ingorance he moved the weld to a spot, where aggresive condense water accumulated and corroded holes into the heat exchanger. Sometimes people have made a mind about what they planned and "improvemnets" are not to the better.

[@wingracer1614]

There's a famous example of this in architecture. The builder changed some support rods from a single long rod to individual smaller rods that were cheaper and easier to install. At first glance it looked like it would work in the exact same way but in actuality, it meant that the entire load of the structure was on a single nut and washer that with the original design would have only seen a quarter of the load. As soon as the building opened and filled with people, it collapsed and many were killed and injured.

[@tz8785]

@@wingracer1614 Sounds like the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse (although there the nut "only" held twice the designed load).

[@wingracer1614]

@@tz8785 Yeah I think that was it. I could be wrong about the amount of load.

[@Tuning3434]

@@wingracer1614 Oh yes, that is a horrible design adaption that would give any engineer nightmares. How do ensure contractors don't try to be smarter than they really are in their quest to bid even more cheaply? Stuff like this must happen every single moment, and we can only pray there are no consequences to it.

[@Thinkle911]

@@wingracer1614 well, maybe our event was a little bit less severe and did not ruin several thousand lives. It was just annoyingly expensive...

[@markfergerson2145]

Not-so-smart foreman to machinist: "Quick, make a part per this drawing!" Machinist: "This ain't gonna work." Foreman: "Are you smarter than the engineers? Shut up and make the part!" (Drawing calls for a 1/4" hole bored in a 3/16" bar) Machinist goes to foreman later and hands him a handful of chips "Here's your part."

[@liquidsonly]

Yep been there, except in my case it was 10off holes on a 1" pitch along the length of a 7" part. Drawing office manager was kind of amused by it. Not drawn there, some other office, somewhere.

[@MrBanjooo]

Ah, the good old non-euclidean engineering

[@ckl9390]

Would drifting the hole work? Thereby making the bar go around the hole that is too wide for it?

[@geoffflato6065]

@@ckl9390 that's called a larger diameter part with a hole in it

[@crow9149]

This doesn't apply to this at all.

[@sraps2007]

Thank you for detailing this. As an engineer today, I appreciate this lesson from the 1930's. It is 100% relevant today, and still happens. Your video has inspired me to be more vigilant of these details.

[@pieshka4509]

It was then that a patent war started as a blue plastic pokey was used despite the patented yellow plastic and pokey

[@stuarthall3874]

This is a great example of something I encountered as an engineer over and over. We studied a similar issue around the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse from 1981 and this video makes another great example of the importance of the designers and manufacturers working together.

[@Grubnar]

Here in Iceland we have an old saying; Oft veltir lítil þúfa þungu hlassi. It is a bit difficult to translate, but it means that often it only takes a tiny thing to have huge consequences! This story is a good example of just that.

[@gunnarisaksson8677]

Liten tuva välter stort lass. ❤️❤️

[@longrifle2955]

Indonesia have a similar saying too; kabeureuyan mah ku cucuk lauk, moal ku tulang domba. Literally means: It is fish bone that often got stuck in your throat, not a sheep bone. You can give it a literal translation too.

[@Kaboomf]

Somewhat literal translation: "Often a little bump (as in a bump in the road) can tip over a heavy load"

[@2centsam927]

Yup. The devil is in the details

[@JohnnyQuickdeath]

I’m heading out today to visit Iceland! I’ll try to use this phrase while I’m there

[@John-ih2bx]

Great video, definitely details how a small engineering change can cause a significant issue. Kudos to Walter Campbell for figuring it out. Nice mention of Othais, he mentions you too. I support you both.

[@VSO_Gun_Channel]

5:24. “Malfunction left and right” replaced with “malfunction right”🙃

[@Tipsy652]

I haven’t been much into guns but this channel is so fascinating it makes me appreciate the engineering that went into them. Now I want to collect them.

[@Pcm979]

I read about this, but because I don't have access to a Garand I couldn't accurately visualise the problem. Thanks! Do you have a license to use the Patented Plastic Pokey Hand, or has Othias's iron grip on the rights finally ended?

[@daniellewis1789]

I believe Ian found three English and one French plastic pokey sticks that predate Othias's patent, and had his polymers toolroom build replicas so as to guarantee he'd win the useage rights.

[@cristianespinal9917]

@@daniellewis1789 👏 a round of applause for Daniel Lewis for winning this video's comment section.

[@simonodegard]

My dude I was so busy giggling at the juxtaposition of the whimsical plastic pokey with your straight forward, charismatically professional narration that I missed every single word of the actual explanation.

[@lairdcummings9092]

Oooh, obscure malfunction details! My inner engineer is fascinated.

[@lairdcummings9092]

AKA "The devil is in the details."

[@loneghostone6883]

I always love that Ian talks about the issues of brining a prototype to production. There are few mechanical devices as complicated as an automatic firearm that are turned out in the quantities that firearms are. At my work we design small actuators for automotive use and we run into a lot of these intermittent issues. Most annoying is that if an actuator is powered into its end of travel at a bit higher voltage and left to sit overnight, it may not power out of this. We've also seen small issues like a drum of grease was transported in a hot truck and then not stirred before use causing some actuators to be full of mineral oil, and others to be filled with the solids from the grease. The world of making a small number of prototypes by hand is vastly different from churning those devices out by the millions.

[@keithallardice6139]

Fascinating, absolutely fascinating!! This is the sort of content that money just can't buy ... I was riveted by this story from beginning to end, thanks so much for sharing Ian - a real pleasure :-)

[@encorespod2135]

This is why I watch this channel, I'm not really into firearms but firearms contain a lot engineering. I've recently had exactly the sort of issues you described in a product myself, it goes together on paper but when you get the parts on the machine something isn't right, but only on a Tuesday and only when Dave puts them together... These sort of issues ALWAYS crop up but managers always fail to budget the extra time and money for them.

[@billmccrackin8825]

Excellent as usual. It would be interesting to see just how the machining error prevented the round from being chambered.

[@momo-hm5ru]

I might add I have seen a picture of one that had the repair done, welding, milling etc, and it changes the hardness of the metal and changes the finish color on the outside of the receiver where the weld was done. Kind of a neat thing Very faint but it was there.

[@TexasSpectre]

There is a similarly bizarre issue with the heavy barrel FN FALs, the ones intended for the SAW/automatic rifle/BAR type role, and only with them. The regular/light barrel FALs won’t do this at all. Heavy barrel FALs, when fired in full auto, will sometimes jam on the second round of a magazine then run fine for the rest once cleared. It does not happen when fired in semi auto and also is not consistently repeatable. This occurs in both metric and inch pattern guns and as far as I know has never been figured out.

[@nunyabidniz2868]

They forgot the H2 buffer...

[@TexasSpectre]

@@nunyabidniz2868 This is a FAL, not an AR. The factories did experiment with buffer weights, spring pressures, etc. It wasn't a buffer issue - someone made a ParaFAL (totally different recoil/buffer spring setup, more like an AR-18) with a heavy barrel and it does the exact same thing.

[@Deliverygirl]

Two years late but, by jam you mean a failure to feed the first round in the magazine after the first round in the chamber is fired? I imagine it might have something to do with vibration differences between the heavy and lighter barrels coupled with the increased spring pressure on a full magazine in full auto, down to maybe even the position of the fire selector itself.

[@TexasSpectre]

@@Deliverygirl I have seen reports that described it as first follow-up round from mag after chambering a round from it as well as some that referred to it as doing it even when you handloaded the chamber and then inserted a full magazine.

[@Deliverygirl]

@@TexasSpectre Thanks for the response, my engineering gut instinct keeps me thinking about the vibrations on a highly tensioned magazine or slightly different feed ramp or receiver assembly dimensions on the heavier barrel.

[@GrangerGangster]

Not a round went downrange and nary even one glimpse of a real weapon (at least not the entire weapon), and this was the most fascinating video you’ve done so far Ian! Bravo!

[@enraikow6109]

I hope y'all are having a 'garand' day! :)

[@Flupp1]

the little blue hand just ups the production value by alot, love it

[@c1ph3rpunk]

My new band: Stoppages of the Seventh.

[@jakreu]

Sounds like an absolute banger

[@wingracer1614]

SRS. Seventh Round Stoppage.

[@c1ph3rpunk]

@@wingracer1614 wasn’t that a Mike Tyson fight? ;-)

[@jic1]

@@wingracer1614 His version for a Metalcore band, yours for a Nu Metal band.

[@AlexN2022]

having built some stuff, I understood that the genius of a designer is 20% in what the finished thing will look like; and 80% in designing it so it would be possible to make it, and make it well at scale.

[@joekurtz8303]

Now, every owner is gonna inspect their Garand after seeing this!

[@ScottKenny1978]

There shouldn't be any with that rail damaged. But you're right about wanting to check it.

[@jonathanbrooks4880]

I know I will be

[@DrSkagit]

Ian, I sincerely appreciate the depth of your knowledge of firearms history. Thank you.

[@rydplrs71]

As a 20 year practitioner of copy exact, almost every problem can be traced to something that isn’t because someone decided something was close enough.

[@iskandartaib]

Wow.. So Julian Hatcher wrote a book about the Garand. If it's anything like his earlier Notebook, it should be a fantastic read. Will see if I can get a copy.

[@Halinspark]

I know it's a little outside the scope if the channel, but I'd like to hear more production stories. Then again, I really enjoyed British Ration Week.

[@OverlordMaggie]

I saw that video and in my comment forgot to ask about this occurrence - in retrospect, glad I didn't ask if you've already got a video about it! Enjoying this overall topic greatly.

[@214TwoOneFo]

“A tiny undocumented change that messed up everything” Ah, Yes, “Programming”... we have since dismissed this claim.

[@MGood-ij1hi]

Ian of Forgotten Weapons is living proof that if you are fascinated by a subject , no matter how dry and technical , you can discuss it in a way that makes it interesting to a lay audience.

[@annonomis9299]

9:44 Ian is a grocery store scanner confirmed.

[@brianmccarthy5557]

The person who can speak both "engineering and tool room machining" is a fairly concise job description of one of my responsibilities throughout most of my career. I usually have to ferret out somebody, usually a supervisor, on the floor who just doesn't want to ask for a drawing or tool programming change, and sometimes also a designer who doesn't want or know who to work on the floor. You have to do this delicately sometimes or you can actually get fired for uncovering a mess. Rather like being a dective. There are quite a few of us who do this. I left college and ended up working as a welder after my dad died. I kept doing it, and learned machining, as I was taking metallurgy and engineering classes at night. As interesting as it is, I'd often rather do the other 2/3 of my job, being in a lab doing development. Thanks for noticing our work.

[@un4given830]

We need more of the pointer on a stick in the future!

[@inconel7185]

I've gotten plenty of imposible drafts because who ever is making them hasn't worked by a machine a minute. It's really nice to know someone who talks both machinist and engineer and is high enough up to make the changes neccesary.

[@Falconguygaming]

"fluent in engineer as well as fluent in Machinist" You mean a toolmaker? I don't know how toolmaking as a profession has just fallen off everyone's radar

[@MrKronikDeception]

Y'all stand over here with us blacksmiths. You're "obsolescence" is still needed in certain circumstances.

[@kellymouton7242]

Journeyman toolmaker AND professional farrier here. If I cant fabricate it or machine it, I'll smash it till it fits.

[@MrKronikDeception]

@@kellymouton7242 100% how it works

[@scottboyd785]

My dad was an apprentice tool maker in WW2. Made zippers for the Allies bomber crew fleece jackets.

[@singleproppilot]

@@kellymouton7242 That’s sort of related to the mechanic’s axiom of “beat it to fit, paint it to match.”

[@jakedouglas6796]

Very insightful Ian, Many other head-scratching functional anomalies, regarding machining issues of other gizmos, boil down to similar practices at the production scale-up level. What you just described boiled down to a subtle, undocumented, engineering change order or "ECO". Hats off to that shop foreman who figured it all out.

[@williamreymond2669]

This is why today we have 'manufacturing engineers' in addition to the design engineers, as well as systems engineers to make sure the other two are actually doing what they say they are going to do and documenting all of those changes.

[@jacksonlefteye]

can't really describe how happy the little blue pointy hand makes me, i absolutely love it

[@prismunit2]

Funny…. I know my Garand has those guide ribs and still on occasion get a 7th round stoppage randomly.

[@Rhynome]

Maybe the cut accidentally went too deep and your guide rib isn't proud enough.

[@davidschaadt5929]

Yes so do I see no. 326,000..Nov .of 1941 .

[@zefallafez]

Could it have worn down over time?

[@davidschaadt5929]

@@zefallafez I've heard other worn parts could cause it also .

[@davidschaadt5929]

I'm going to try a new follower .The one I have seems pretty loose .

[@razvanbutiac7684]

This is so interesting, we see here the first steps on creating what will become later a must have branch on every single industry... and this is Change and configuration management. Almost not existing at that time. As Ian state, put together a know how package of documents, drawings and instructions that you can give to a factory and on the end of the line you will get exactly same article no mater were or whom will produce this. This put the basses of what we have today as Configuration management.... briliant presentation Ian!

[@Chaddlee]

Why do I get the feeling that this sort of thing happened with every single component of the SA80 A1 I used to use? Like every single person at every stage is shaving off a little or leaving a little to much on, I suddenly have a bolt action Support Weapon.

[@ulissedazante5748]

Untill some Germans showed up...

[@Chaddlee]

@@ulissedazante5748 well yes, but then if you are going to use quality materials and stringent building regulations backed up by expert quality control, you can get anything work.

[@pemtax557]

As a retired mechanical engineer, I've lived through more than one of these issues. Configuration control is critical to producing problem free products. Excellent story, I really enjoyed it. Cheers ...

[@gavinm1347]

This video makes me sad, I had my paperwork done to buy a CMP service grade and they literally went out of stock the day I went to put my packet in the mailbox…. I have no clue when they will be back again :(

[@nunyabidniz2868]

You'd better pray that they don't get the HR1 bill under President Potatohead's pen, or we'll never have a clean election again. As it is, you can bet that the communists pulling Biden's strings aren't going to let the CMP take receipt of any more returned M1s from former MAK recipients. It's going to be a loooong 4 years... With any luck, we'll get a real president again in 2024, and you may get another chance at one.

[@Cyle_C]

@@nunyabidniz2868 this guy still thinks clean elections exist lol

[@davidschaadt5929]

So sorry to hear that .

[@RobFeldkamp]

I am always impressed by your ability to speak concise, specific and clear. Very talented.

[@RobFeldkamp]

No almost-correct-usages of near-pretentious words like an unnamed cohost of a friendly channel.

[@FIREBRAND38]

2:51 Shutting down Springfield Armory was arguably one of the stupidest moves by McNamara, which is saying a lot given all the stupid moves he made in his tenure as SECDEF.

[@tpobrienjr]

Thanks for a great story. I read Hatcher's book many years ago (60s), and found it to be a great reference. Tolerance stacking is something few people appreciate. Things are done on the factory floor that are not well understood, sometimes. We had a supplier whose workers went out on strike, causing rate gyros to fail acceptance test, and it turned out that the guy who (ussually) was assembling them used "feel" instead of a jig or tool to get the right preload on the bearings. Undocumented. Caused a lot of hair-pulling.