Why You Chase, and How to Stop: The Pursuer-Distancer Dynamic | Being Well Podcast

[@thealphabetist]

In my experience (and countless other people‘s as well), you need an exceptionally strong and secure mentality to cope with the challenges that come with being in a relationship with an avoidant partner. I’m not even anxiously attached, but this experience made me second guess myself profoundly and I developed weird thoughts and behaviors I’ve never had before in any relationship. The attachment system is wired for attaining proximity and safety. Intent doesn’t really matter much if bids for connection are routinely dismissed, you will feel lonely, neglected and unimportant nonetheless. We all know that distancing behaviors are fear based and not meant to cause harm on purpose, and with that in mind you can give them all the love, understanding and support humanly possible, but if you get 0 to maybe 10% of this effort back, you’ll burn yourself out in no time.

[@LisaSmith-yb2uz]

❤absolutely agree 🥹👍

[@Jjjrrrrrhjdj]

Hi Forrest! This episode was right in my wheelhouse too!! The spirits put a person in my life who showed me my people-pleasing and from there I believe it was you and your dad who shown the light on attachment theory. What a trip!😆 I can say that...now that I know what I know.... when I was in the thick of it relationship-wise, it really drained me. Personally, I am grateful for Rick Hanson... he has offered me wisdom and real stuff that makes sense . You and your dad are a dynamic duo! (😮Not taking anything away from Batman and Robin)

[@Srodjeh]

I am a “malignant” overthinker and fawner. Thank you so much, I am now understanding that I have an anxious-avoidant attachment. This is such an exhilarating feeling that I am not “crazy” and this is how my brain works. I used to be very challenging to deal with, but I am very eager to reparent myself to be patient and kind to myself so I can continue to connect with my partner wholeheartedly and genuinely appreciate their effort to connect with me as well. My partner has a distant attachment but more secure than distancer, but he has always been so patient with me. He had never called me names or looked down on me, but tells me it’s not fair for me to lash out on him because he was not the one who hurt me. And him confiding to me about his emotions is such a great way to know that we are both deeply connected with each other.

[@suziqcu]

Thank you. Heartbreakingly my husband gave up 😢 your spouse kept the lines of communication open. ❤

[@Srodjeh]

@ I’m so sorry for your loss. When I am on that state of mind, it felt very constricting to even breathe. And my only means of self preservation is to ease my severe emotional pain by giving up. Please do not fault yourself for losing someone over ending their life for that is their choice to do so to end their suffering. Take care of yourself and be kind to yourself, ok? We only have one life.

[@J33SS]

I think in theory working on these differences together sounds great, but in reality the avoidant is seldom willing to put in enough effort and the anxious becomes responsible for all the emotional labor, draining them and making the whole thing an incompatible giver-taker dynamic. Basically, an anxious person will always have to settle for less with an avoidant, and we deserve reciprocity in relationships.

[@chieftainnn2093]

I have also come up to this unfortunate conclusion. It truly is a very hard place to find myself in.

[@Jenn-1222]

Correct! This has been my experience every time. I shrank myself to a speck of a person to meet their needs with very little in return. 😞

[@Ramanhere468]

Avoid the avoidants! They will never love you as you deserve. They only want the chase and should stick to polygamy.

[@prince_of_summer]

It's not true. I'm avoidant. Monogamous. In love with my anxious. But can't stand his neediness. And I love him so much.

[@suziqcu]

@@Ramanhere468after 33 years of marriage I concur. Divorce finally Rick explained it to at « t »

[@stellabandante2727]

Powerful, informative conversation. As an "anxious avoidant", I'm in the process of understanding this dynamic, learning self-compassion, and learning how my behaviors create the situations I don't want. You both are so fair and gentle in your depiction of these interactions, and it helps me to understand the other side of the story. Thank you.

[@rayofthemoon]

They know one other quite well. I appreciate their father and son bond. There is a mutual respect which is admirable. They are very complementary.

[@mamatay7]

It would be interesting to do a deep dive on neurodiverse relationships

[@yazziridis]

One thing I wish they had spoken about (or maybe I missed it) is how sometimes the pursuer doesn't want to let go of the avoidant, when they could return the same energy (keeping the distance), or leave the relationship if it's not working for them. In the case of a situationship or relationship/friendship, the pursuer can stop expecting from the avoidant what the avoidant doesn't want to give, and find someone more compatible. It's a different thing an avoidant who's being lazy and misleading the pursuer, than an avoidant who doesn't feel comfortable with the requests of the pursuer, but is too anxious to confess how they feel and what they truly need. I appreciate how towards the end of the podcast they talk about a possibility for negotiation where both parties find a way to meet in the middle.

[@amyfigueroa1911]

Ok we need an episode dedicated to situationships!

[@ForrestHanson]

The people have spoken

[@Ramanhere468]

Just dont waste your time in situationships. Theyre a “lose” situation for females. Soul crushing.

[@chouchoumuse2729]

Yes!

[@brendarees9404]

This isn't a dating channel

[@FoxHowton]

Thank you for including the differences between schizoid avoidant and ASD! Sensory and social cue understanding difficulties does impair socialising. We do like socialising, but with those who are like us :) and those who are sensory safe to be with

[@suziqcu]

13:08. So on point and now too late to save my marriage. 20:25 avoidantly attached interpreted as a power move and wouldn’t budge..twenty minutes a day was too much to give.

[@andreabrunkow9314]

I would like to rephrase the "bottomless bucket" description. I think a better description would be that the person has become malnourished. Understanding that to recover from malnourishment takes time and consistent nourishment is key, in my opinion, to overcome the problems that the malnourishment has caused. I'm not saying that the malnourished person has no responsibility in their own recovery. I just think that looking at that person as a "bottomless bucket" is very discouraging to both parties and fails to address the fact that that person has legitimate needs that can actually be fulfilled in time. Time and consistency in nourishment are what a starving animal needs to recover. I believe it is the same for the human heart. That being said, people do bare responsibility in learning what is nourishing and not trying to go too fast. A starving animal will eat too much when it is offered food. It is imperative that the starving person doesn't do that to themselves or the person trying to nourish them.

[@Jenn-1222]

So beautifully put. Malnourished has been chronic in these dynamics. The avoidant is either full of their own nourishment or doesn’t like the bounty being served by their partner…

[@Jenn-1222]

I don’t usually comment on social media any longer due to what I feel is the breakdown of the social fabric which often leads to cruelty, judgement and other harms. This was the first Being Well podcast I felt negative feelings toward (and I’m a regular listener with many episodes under my belt plus have shared this gem of a podcast with many clients - disclosure - I’m a mental health therapist). My inner voice kept pointing me toward Forrest having big, complex (negative?) feelings about pursuing behavior/pursuers… 🤪 Much of social media bashes the avoidant/distancers... And, anxiously attached folks definitely have loads of inner work to do… Where can we have a discussion about the difficulty for avoidants to offer up, lean in, and be willing to engage in healthy bonding? As a life-long anxiously attached person who has turned myself every which way (and followed your sage advice as well as many other skilled folks - and I successfully teach this stuff!) to create a safe space for my “classic avoidant” partner to feel the willingness, safety, motivation to meet me in the middle? I’ve been met with utter failure… what next? My experience is distancers struggle a lot more than pursuers with change. Often, it’s the pursuer who lowers their expectations, goes to therapy, tries really hard… until there’s virtually no needs being met, all in the hopes this will move the needle for the avoidant partner. And it doesn’t. The avoidant enjoys being left alone, not having to show much intimacy etc… and does not offer up anything in return or see the importance of meeting the anxious partners needs… I’m thinking of opting out of relationships. Yet, that’s not what I want. I’m in my 50s and this is not how I envisioned my life. I’d love an episode on how to spot an avoidant who will not grow or lean in and be able to extract myself from them in less time than I’ve historically done 😢

[@Alphacentauri819]

Repairing your attachment wounds, reparenting yourself, giving yourself what you want/need (daily) from others (as best you can). You cannot see the red flags of the avoidant, if you have those behaviors conditioned in as "familiar". They don't cause alarm to you like some other, more visible red flags. We can have blind spots in our red flag detectors. When we had emotionally unavailable parents, that is our template. Until we show up for ourselves, stop self betraying, stop self abandoning, we will continue to get into these relationships. Once we have our cup filled, recalibrate our red flag detector, we will see the avoidant behavior much quicker & it won't match our insides (our own self dismissal, self invalidation, etc), so we won't tolerate it. It takes work, daily, nervous system reregulation, and a therapist who gets (in a R brain way) what Dr Alan Schore and Dr Iain Gilcrist speak of. Attunement is a right brain thing...and dismissive avoidant people are often very left brain dominant (our society rewards this). While we all use both sides of our brains, they're interconnected...but there is often a lack of ongoing growth, help for the R brain. The R brain is where empathy, compassion, connection thrives from. Anyways, I could say a lot more...but that's enough for now! I wish you healing, attunement and connection. I too am in my 50's, have mostly attracted people who were avoidant (I happen to be a fearful avoidant/disorganized, from profound traumas) and have studied human behavior for 30+ years. I also suffered and got caught in traps of this. I am on a deep healing journey and finally have hope 💫

[@ForrestHanson]

Huh, if anything I felt like we went out of our way to highlight how pursuers are typically over-punished socially, and some of the (mostly somewhat unfair) factors that lead to that. That's why we spent such a large chunk of the episode focusing on the distancer, and the work that they can do both individually and inside of a relationship.

[@heidi32500]

Disclosure: I like being self reliant, in solitude helps me refill my emotional cup. My failed marriage of 10 years was with an enmeshed pursuer with underlying rage when he couldn't control me. We both landed in a failed marriage from roots of dysfunctional families. His enmeshed, mine disengaged. We should never had married. Hindsight. After 30 years on, I never would have been drawn in so far had I been emotionally more mature. It takes time to grow up. I still am a person who appreciates solitude. I am in a longer lasting marriage with a similar style of relationship as mine. Yes, opposites attract but not necessarily a good thing overall. I wish there was a test and a years requirement of individual therapy for anyone to enter into a marriage. It might help avert damaging the lives of children who then become a self fulfilling prophecy of their parents. Having a requirement for obtaining a license means we care about children more than anything else. But we don't. To the therapist who I am replying to, stop trying for anything different. It won't happen. Be statisfied with what you have. Or leave.

[@josefin3320]

I have been working really hard on healing my anxious attachment style for the past 2 years and I am getting to a more secure place of relating in intimate relationships. I used to think a lot like you, however I have come to a place of understanding that I neither have to put up with someone who isn’t willing to meet my relational needs (avoidants who aren’t interested in changing), nor do I have to give up on relationships all together. I need to heal my own attachment style and be someone who actually wants to meet my relational needs. I am no longer blaming my avoidant exes for the way they made me feel. I realize we just wanted different things and that we weren’t very compatible. I have also realized that I need to learn how to trust my partner and receive their reassurance with grace and not constantly be demanding more (which, just like Rick said, tends to drive people away). I think Forrest and Rick talks very compassionately and accurate about this at around 9:30 and forward in the video. Heidi Priebe also has an awesome KZbin channel where she talks about attachment healing and it has helped me a lot.

[@Jjjrrrrrhjdj]

I am with you ....ten years older and similar experiences and feelings. I do enjoy life on my own....I wonder what the genetic component is....were there always these personalities (for want of a better word), and what was the evolutionary purpose?

[@MarleyLeMar]

I'm a person who has reached a secure attachment style through therapy. I believe it's possible for most of us, and a very good indication of willingness to get healthy before entering a serious committed relationship, especially if there's likelihood of having children.

[@cowsarepeopletoo]

Loved this episode! Two things I want to mention. First, though you touched on it, I think my experience may be common and significant, that when the avoidant person feels pursued, they may react with anger, criticism, or other means to push the pursuer away. The pursuer then tries to avoid contact with distant because it is painful, and may look to others like the avoidant. Second, in experiences I've had with different people, IFS terminology is helpful. In both cases of avoidance, with the generally avoidant person and with the pursuing person they have made to feel unsafe, the need to avoid the other comes to animate protectors to keep them out of close, threatening situations. Then if they finds themselves in such a situation anyway, the fire fighters wreak havoc to "get them out of there.

[@DJhunhu]

More episodes like this please. 🙏 I’ve listed to various books and podcasts on this topic and yours has been the most relatable and helpful to speak to a variety of dynamics that get beyond attachment therapy to a degree. Thank you! Any role plays you and your team can provide would be especially helpful to see the process of insightful moments within a therapy session and customized homework/therapy specific to the dynamics that have come up in that role play for each person. Then ideally a follow up of homework done with success of doing the homework and how that session could look, with another session being how a session could go if the homework wasn’t completed (and even possibly positive and negative outcomes of each of those examples to get the spectrum of possibility here, but I realize it’s asking a lot). Thanks for the consideration and all the wisdom you provide🙏

[@butwhydoIhaveto]

I’d listen to an episode of Forrest trying to explain to Rick the dynamics of situationships and Rick just dismantling it

[@heidi32500]

Turning this into gender didn't sit soundly for me. My past marital relationship with an man from an enmeshed family, mine a distance family, he was an emotional vampire, I was the less needy female. It didn't work. I should have divorced at 5 years but everyone said stay because he is so nice (not). I left at 10 years in. I learned my own interior needs. My relationship had no gender dynamics. It was more about the need for control. And learning to understand what makes me tick so I could understand others. Still learning. As forest described leaning into thinking giving into someone else's reality and style of relationship would be giving up my self. Yes. I wasn't willing to give in which was a giving up for me.

[@avakennedy3519]

Situationship is so common for me and many of us. I’m shocked that Rick didn’t know that term. Maybe because those of us in situationships don’t stay long enough to need therapy. I was divorced 17 years ago in my mid fifties. Since then I’ve had many situationships. Relationships that lasted about 5-6 months. It’s not just dating. It’s monogamous involvement with sexuality that ends painfully. Lots to learn here. I’m sure Rick has some good advice for this.

[@everydayxprmnt]

As a 24 yr old woman, I’m curious about your experience with situationships in your 60s? Any different than when you were younger?

[@brendarees9404]

You sound desperate and clingy maybe that scares off men.

[@-beee-]

Super relevant and valuable! Thank you so much for sharing this discussion.

[@kaiatanorondumoulin6300]

Omg please talk about situationships!!! 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽

[@govbop]

Thank you ! I am dealing with thus dynamic in communities. Im anxious pursuant and while the communtirs themselves are mostly about connection it often feels superficial and on an individual level there isnt so much of a connection goal. Its more distancing. I realize i need to also be a part of communities that are not so touchy feely.

[@Warrior4Love]

This is so very good! I really needed to hear this. Thank you for this great informative podcast.

[@marilynoverton8142]

Such illuminating content. Thank you both so much!

[@rakheesinghal]

Wow, 🎉 I know myself better each time I listen to you both.

[@Ramanhere468]

As an Axious attachment style, dealing with an Avoidant for 9 years (on and off); I can wholeheartedly say “Please, please do not damage yourself by dealing with this personality disorder!”You will be left with years wasted, nothing gained but a destroyed sense of self, low self-esteem, low self-worth and regret. It is absolutely horrible and soul crushing. Only enter relationships when you are healed/healing and with Secure attachments. Avoid the Avoidants!!

[@nyuuuchan]

💯

[@MF-se1zl]

In my case 30 years of trying to " heal" him in a marriage and instead it was me who got traumatized, devalued and discarded. Now 62 and so happy I was finally freed. It took me three years to see how lucky I am!

[@dragon6414]

Thanks!

[@betsyortega6185]

I wish you had talked more about what to do when you know your partner will not meet or match many of your needs and desires. Can you still make it work? How do you talk about it?

[@angelacavar708]

I got a lot from Forrest’s comment about being truly empathic. Very helpful.

[@Lore788]

Wow , I am currently working on my attachment style.🤩You and your dad covered this perfectly well. I learnt a lot. Thank you!🙏😻👍

[@Kxb244]

Love this episode (and all episodes), thanks so much! Question regarding this topic for a potential future episode on this or a similar topic--what if the anxious person is trying to work on their self-soothing tactics and codependent tendencies, but then that clashes with the avoidant when the avoidant has a bid for attention that goes "rejected/postponed" by the anxious partner? It can make the anxious partner feel like they *always* need to accept bids from the avoidant partner, but then that isn't healthy either for various reasons. It can also make the anxious partner feel like space is only okay when it is dictated by the avoidant partner and not by the anxious partner--when the anxious partner tries to get physical or emotional space or exercise their independence/autonomy, subconscious backlash can happen from the avoidant partner in the form of more distancing or grumpy moods/energy. Would love more advice and insights on this topic in the context of a marriage with kid(s)! (Or, may need to book an appointment with Rick, ha!)

[@tara4610]

Love Rick’s LOTR reference. Made me smile and makes a lot of sense!

[@elaussies]

Yes, more like this! Loved it

[@julialednicky7542]

Wonderful content! This makes so much sense!

[@AndreaCantrell-o5x]

Excellent podcast got a lot out of it thank you thank you

[@SplashyCannonBall]

I was the anxious she was avoident. We divorced she found another person and I’m on my own. I just now woke up to what I’ve done. I’m devastated

[@khazad25]

I find it sad how comment sections on attachment theory videos always end up really divisive and dehumanising. Portraying all people with avoidant attachment as evil narcissists, and anxiously attached people as their victims. It’s never that simple or one-sided, and the reality is anyone with any kind of insecure attachment style has some hurt or pain they need to work through to be better to their partner.

[@chouchoumuse2729]

Awesome, thank you very much!

[@edenferriss768]

One of my favorite topics

[@Adriell.h.b.]

How do you disentangle character traits like 'avoidant attachment' from other character traits like sexual identities like demisexual and asexual or like autism spectrum disorder? A lot of those 'character traits' want distance or just wont bother engaging with relationships.

[@mindful-man-365]

As far as I can tell, I'm mostly secure in my attachment approach until I come across someone who turns out to be or becomes avoidant, and that triggers a more anxious mode, which in turm, etc etc. While the pursuing mode might seem to provide a more clearcut example of 'the initial problem', I feel that both types can instigate the dance (ie someone can be covertly avoidant of the core concept of a relationship but still enter into one for various reasons, play the game initially but then pull away... with no change in, or pursuing, behaviour from other other party). In any case, I'm not sure that establishing fault would ever provide a route to a solution, even if it were correctly applied.

[@djVania08]

I wonder how many avoidants would even watch something like this and try to change and evolve. I bet it's like 9:1 ratio between anxious and avoidant. :D

[@govbop]

Of course i am complex. I start out anxious pursuant then when i feel rejected which is very easy i become anxious avoudant. If i meet someone who also wants to bond at my level it us it ally doesnt work

[@Jenn-1222]

I understand this all too well.

[@nyuuuchan]

I don't know how popular this would be, but I'd love an episode on neurodivergent relationships. Turns out I'm an autistic ADHDer (found out now at 34) and it hit me recently that despite 'adulting' and being labelled 'high functioning ' I still can't understand NTs. And NTs can't accept me. Please make a how-to on navigating this, so that neurospicy people won't have to die alone 😢

[@newpilgrim]

Many thanks!

[@ichigossbm4636]

Y'all are really good at this. You should collaborate with Heidi Priebe.

[@Aquarian_Heart]

I know this is unrealated but I'm wondering if Forrest has covered psychosis. Ive been struggling with psychosis tendencies and would love to hear more about this. Or schizoaffective disorder.

[@melissasmith5483]

Thank you

[@Zar2244]

Avoidant may be simply not in love anymore, but choosing to stay for various reasons

[@govbop]

I want to hear about situationships. That might be my style

[@peacefulisland67]

We are more often than not attracted to people (friends, mates and even employment) in order to agitate the things in us that need attending to. The more we ignore, the more chaotic and unhealthy it is for next generations regardless of whether everyone has children. And if a child has received the message of their inherent spiritual value from conception (what's going on in the mind during procreation has a huge impact on the potential fetus) then the death of even a parent won't knock them off their path. A parent dying, even during birth or toddlerdom, is not unnatural. But, if the child hasn't received the message that they are whole, deserving of love regardless of their ability to contribute, and wanted from conception, then the potential for getting the message later is cut off. Then there's trouble and an uphill battle to instill inherent value for oneself. The "battle" looks different for us all who are called to enter. Some just need a nudge because cellular memory (karma) just needs a leg up to freedom and good living, some need a whole community and buckets of compassion and learning over a lifetime just to stay in the game. 😑🙏

[@tropicaally]

hello i’m new heree

[@LisaSmith-yb2uz]

😮have you been reading my mind ? ☺️

[@ides1red]

It’s not “personality types” like extrovert vs introvert. It’s two opposing survival techniques/trauma responses. People are not born with the triggers that lead to these behaviors.

[@foratabdulsalamfaris4796]

❤

[@moonshineonme75013]

54:15 - 106:oOo

[@moonshineonme75013]

Thank 🙏🏼 You

[@anchyzas]

Exactly 🥹

[@KalebForseen-q3t]

nice