Using Attachment Theory with MASTER Therapist Dr. Sue Johnson | Being Well Podcast

Dr. Sue Johnson, the founder of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), joins Dr. @RickHanson and me to explore how insights from attachment theory can transform our relationships. We discuss how attachment theory provides a map for understanding relationships, the challenges of making skills learned in therapy stick, and the role of vulnerability in creating authentic and fulfilling relationships. In this episode you'll learn how to use insights from attachment theory and EFT to create secure and emotionally healthy relationships.
Key Topics:
0:00 Introduction
1:50 Why Sue created Emotionally-Focused Therapy
9:00 Relationships as bonds not bargains
12:35 The amygdala and getting relationship skills to stick
17:15 What it feels like to be in a bonding conversation
25:50 The dance of relationship, validating vulnerabilities, and “finding the raw spot”
30:30 Having good modeling of a bonding conversation
31:20 Changing the way you relate to yourself
36:10 Where EFT is useful vs. Internal Family Systems
38:35 “The Amygdala Whisperer”
40:40 Relating with the inherent core of every being, and naming helplessness
45:40 Communicating how much you care about and value others
51:40 Individualism, and getting comfortable with vulnerability
59:05 Recap
About our Guest: Dr. Sue Johnson is a clinical psychologist, researcher, professor, and the founder of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), a widely used and respected approach to couples therapy. She is considered one of the foremost experts in the field of attachment, and has received numerous awards for her contributions to the field of psychotherapy. Dr. Johnson is also the author of seven books, including the best-selling Hold Me Tight.
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Who Am I: I'm Forrest, the co-author of Resilient (amzn.to/3iXLerD) and host of the Being Well Podcast (apple.co/38ufGG0). I'm making videos focused on simplifying psychology, mental health, and personal growth.
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🌍 www.forresthanson.com
📸 / f.hanson

[@ForrestHanson]

I was deeply saddened to hear that Dr. Johnson passed recently after three years of living with cancer. In addition to being an absolute legend in the field, Sue was one of the most authentic and kind people I've had the privilege of meeting while doing the show. She had an incredible intelligence, wit, and incisiveness to her that was matched by an equally good sense of humor. Sue changed many, many lives through her work, and I'm grateful for the short time we spent together.

[@vickilynn9514]

Yes, it's heartbreaking. An absolute giant in the field

[@desertbluesplaylist7550]

Yes me too. RIP Sue ❤

[@drsandhyathumsikumar4479]

Yes. I am catching up with her wonderful personality and contributions 🎉 om shanti

[@Jonathan-hn8bg]

Thankyou for sharing this news Forrest.

[@trueUncleJunior]

I am heartbroken to hear that Sue has left us. She has been battling cancer for the last 3 years but has given such great interviews.😢😢😢😢❤❤❤

[@Pr3stss]

Oh my goodness! This just showed up in my feed on KZbin. Maybe that is why. Her legacy is strong and beautiful.

[@jamiesonlittle6581]

As a UK trained Family & Systemic Psychotherapist who has been training in EFT and using this approach over the last 18 months, I have been absolutely blown away by the results and the difference EFT has made to the individuals, couples and families I have used it with. Attachment theory is still predominantly used as a diagnostic tool, to label and diagnose. The EFT approach finally offers us a practical psycho-therapeutic approach to be able to support clients in pro-actively building connection and strengthening bonds between couples and family members. We should not under-estimate how challenging it must have been for Sue to pursue and develop these ideas in the face of challenge and ridicule by her colleagues. There was simply no room for emotion and attachment in the 1990s within family therapy. Thank you Sue, for persevering in developing this approach in the face of being sidelined and ignored for so long.

[@moralebooster8437]

When Sue said "she's not depressed, she's heartbroken" it broke me into tears. I feel we don't have enough valid words in English to describe our pain and still have it taken care of. "Heartbreak" has this taste of temporary immaturity, like a teen after a breakup. But it really is so deep and describes the grief of our inner child. Thank you so much Sue for your great work

[@valeriehowell3533]

Me too.

[@erindabney2758]

Every time I listen to a video with Dr. Johnson, I cry and cry. Of all the therapists I’ve gone to and seen in the media, it seems like she’s the ONLY one who honestly believes and understands that humans are relational beings. All the other ones seem like they’re just paying lip service to this idea because so many people are struggling emotionally now. It’s so hard to exist in this world where every relationship has been forced into transactions. I wish I could find someone to interact with in person who isn’t subscribed to the extreme individuality of western culture.

[@michellejansma165]

Yes, without losing your own individuality and being seen for your strengths without being exploited.

[@erindabney2758]

@@michellejansma165 I’m struggling to see my individuality and who I am in relation to the people I care about. After years of unhelpful therapy and related content, I struggle NOT to see every single incidence of inconvenience as me being exploited. I wasn’t this sensitive to EVERYTHING before. I wasn’t so obsessed with how I feel before.

[@Sunshinysky432]

I’m in tears with both heartbreak and hope after 30 years of marriage mostly doing the wrong dance. Thank you,Sue for becoming obsessed and understanding the emotions involved in this delicate dance of bonding and our own unique being and fear. Sue gets it and was able to articulate it for me! Grateful for a deeper understanding.🙏🏻

[@valeriehowell3533]

We've been struggling too. Bought the book, bought the online course. Just couldn't get both of us involved. Finally decided to go to an intensive weekend soon. I too, have hope.

[@debrasnook4714]

18:55 the Dance... is the pattern to notice. 20:00 can we meet our vunerabilities and fear 23:00 the repair ( longing sadness grief ). 28:00 finding the raw spot What do you say to yourself 33:30 - get secure with Self (dont share with partner yet) The Client needs a new experience The Client needs a new experience 39:00 The Client needs a new experience not a new idea 42:00 What Blocks - focus track

[@SteveBurksMusic]

What a gem of an interview.

[@anecdotal_mattybs5435]

I am on a course in the uk to become a Psychological Well-being Practitioner (PWP) and have become very disillusioned with it and the treatment in our NHS. Without yet starting the job properly there are zero teachings on atunement and connection. Nothing on how to communicate and build trust. The language itself is demeaning and medicalising, labelling people as “patients” to be fixed. They have said that all these things are important but spent next to no time on them beyond shoe-horning “empathetic phrases” (like; that must be difficult for you/ I’m sorry to hear that) into a prepared script. I wouldn’t mind so much as obviously people break away from scripts, but about 80% of the course are immature and either don’t really care, or only want to put it down on a cv towards going for clinical psychologist and more money. At least PWP’s shouldn’t be treating anyone with complex issues……..but then we aren’t even taught properly what complexity is and what help they can get……..spoiler alert…….none.

[@danielfroggatt3475]

This episode should win an award! I think I’ll have to listen to it twice

[@tommac21]

Or be put in the archives forever

[@paddee6096]

I’m a coach focused on coming back to ones authenticity inner child work and attachment. This Is THE BEST interview. Dr. Sue Is incredible and aligns so much with the approach I’d like to take. I feel the same about the intellectualizing of the IFS parts. So for me this interview was so helpful and inspiring in how I want yo give to people. Thank you so much!

[@irektaflinski5449]

Forrest you are such great and wise host that I feel you should be a psychologist too !!!

[@MsGaella]

A truly excellent, life-altering interview. Forrest’s summary at the end was well done and helpful. Great work! Thank you.

[@ForrestHanson]

Thank you!

[@mickilicyes5399]

Such a wonderful interview! My husband and I have been married for 44 years and we are so close now. Having this information makes so many things clear about our struggles in our early years with each other. Thank you for this, so affirming.

[@tommac21]

Really it took someone who knows just as much as anyone on relationships for this to happen. That's sad

[@nateschocolatecroissants5463]

I cried during this interview as I realized the pain I felt in my own relationships. Thank you for the interview, I will try reading Dr. Johnson's book.

[@fionaarchibald502]

Amazing, thank you.

[@bethbarkman5830]

I am in the middle of becoming a therapist because I sooooo believe in this approach. I choked up and teared up through the whole thing and I almost never EVER have feelings like this. I realize how much EFT aligns with my soul.

[@matthewbeack357]

I'm also studying to be a therapist and am slowly learning EFIT! I had a similar reaction to yours as I was tearing up much of the time and thinking about the clients I am working with. All the best to you as you grow as a therapist!

[@Pr3stss]

I’m also studying to be a therapist and am interested in EFT. Her focus on believing that people can grow, it really touched me.

[@irektaflinski5449]

I love her!! And it’s so true and her story of childhood and work with couple is me ❤

[@joannamgodwin3072]

Yes our inner child work is essential !!!!

[@philippaking1732]

I always enjoy Forrest and Rick, but with Dr. Sue Johnson it was really special. Thank you.

[@mer0902]

As a graduate student therapist in the midst of trying to carry the warring intellectualism, school training, real life experience, and attempt to trust my own presence in the room, this conversation was truly grounding and so so helpful!

[@SamWhitlock]

I've been listening to this over and over while driving and as a non-itunes person I can't review it there, but this is honestly one of my favorite episodes ever. I still can't believe that this podcast has been such a rocketship of useful personal growth info, and this is no exception!

[@mysticgardener2704]

The amygdala whisperer! Love it. Listening to this is in itself healing for me.

[@carolinaacastro2516]

As a patient, I beg to differ from the point that the patient needs new experiences rather than new ideas I need both just as much. I can only speak from my perspective and as a person with C-PTSD, I can say that I had new experiences in my early adult life which I could not make sense of and they actually triggered me heavily because they were good experiences with safe people and I didn't know safety yet, and so became rather reactive to those new experiences. If I had understanding for my condition at that point, only then I could have properly interpreted those new experiences in order to properly integrate them as corrective experiences. I know this for myself because only now, with the new ideas that I am being able to absorb the new experiences without distorting, displacing or projecting, and I am finally getting results. That is my experience anyhow, not sure for others, but for me, I definitely need the new ideas before the new experiences, otherwise I used to just transform the new experiences into bad experiences, either by distorting or by full on turning them into bad ones by displacing. Love your content as always, thank you so much for this wonderful episode.

[@ForrestHanson]

There's definitely a place for both!

[@psychiatrypsychotherapy6939]

Excellent interview. Well thought out questions. Sue Johnson is amazing.

[@zerotoanime3953]

Very informative and inspiring.

[@Simon_Hawkshaw]

Incredible, insightful discussion with so many revelations. Thank you for sharing this with us all.

[@tommac21]

How and why was this even a little bit insightful. Telling you things you already knew. These people are scam artist

[@broadcairnconsulting1002]

Excellent episode

[@dorishaus400]

So helpful, I listened to it then listened again with my husband! I love how you were all so lighthearted while talking about a real life heavy subject. And your summary was amazing! We will listen to this one again and again!! 😇🤙🏼❤️

[@sharishakti9075]

What an incredibly helpful and insightful talk! I love that we continue learning new ways to be with each other in healthy ways. Thank you so much!🥰

[@alicebrison1899]

Fantastic program!! Thanks, Forest, for hosting this! Time well-spent for me!!

[@CB19087]

Listened to this this morning! Absolutely loved it, what a lovely combination of people. Sue is an inspiration 🙌 definitely a British sense of humour "no, they're an idiot" hahaha

[@tommac21]

Yeah she has to have a sense of humor. She believes she's a relationship expert. That's pretty humorous

[@monicadeandres6628]

Amazing session, thank you so much., Listened to so many things key to transformation. I think everyone should listen to it. Thank you Forrest and Rick for your generosity and wisdom.

[@Diana-jx1ju]

What a beautiful conversation!

[@michellejansma165]

I have been trying and failing at reaching my husband about the disconnect we have in our marriage. I have listened to many professionals, pschyotherapists on podcasts and videos, books, etc. The only thing that has finally made sense is YOU, Ms. Johnson. You are a genius and should win ALLL the prizes AALLL the accolades for what you have taught me. IT ALL COMES TOGETHER here. My only issue is that in the vulnerability of the moments that allow the underbelly of hurt and realness to be seen, too many times it's like face planting into a brick wall. It's painful and rejection at it's definition, I can not subject myself to it anymore. How do I move past that? Also...how do I hold empathy for his 10 yr old little boy but not 'fall for" him again? He does not hold space for me in return and I have had enough. He has empathy for small children as long as they are not too verbal. Please point me to the master class of empathy without codependance. Thank you for your willingness to follow this HIGH HIGH and beautiful calling.

[@crispycookie9739]

What a stunning interview! I am 💯 convinced that if a therapist had been able to explain this, my ex and I might still be together. So grateful that Dr. Johnson is doing this work and for this channel!

[@inthelapoftheearth2418]

This is a wonderful talk I learned alot

[@kriskelley3562]

I really appreciate this video. Sue is very good in the advice that she gave.

[@nadalia832]

Clear and to the point, yet tactful and empathic. Very, very helpful and inspiring.

[@AKAndrew]

Such an insightful, and entertaining episode. And Forest’s summary at the end was really helpful. Thank you!

[@Iamtheoneiteach]

Such a fan of all your guests and you’ve just helped me so much. Thank you for all you do🙏🏾✨🌵💃🏾🌀

[@kcarver0614]

Transformative. I heard this at such a perfect moment I can’t even express it. Thank you for this gift, and to Dr. Johnson for birthing this amazing work. Wow. Just wow.

[@tommac21]

What ork is it he does that's so amazing. Take naive people's money

[@BrillGirl82]

So good and I’m diggin your gray streak, Forrest 😁

[@mohini7858]

This is gold. ❤ thank you so much for this wonderful interview.

[@tommac21]

Why was this gold.

[@bell10877]

Great ! Please talk together again! Loved it. 😊

[@ceeroar4068]

This was really excellent Thankyou

[@wasode20]

Thankyou,this is an amazing conversation!

[@fraemme9379]

Really interesting, thank you 😊

[@lynettejohnson9051]

This podcast helped me more than you know. Much gratitude 🙏 ❤😊

[@lynettejohnson9051]

As I heal myself and release the generational trauma I grew up in... I realized I was looking outside of myself for my value when I was searching for loving supportive authentic people to guide me to see my worth and heal myself. My goal is to teach others what I have learned so they can learn to heal. I have enjoyed reading about this type of therapy.

[@nidhikankan]

Loved this interaction.Thanks

[@Sarahwithanh444]

Loved it - such an enlightening conversation to listen to!

[@TaliaMellifera]

I cried mmy way along what she explained and at the end I had to laugh about how she is after me, too, seeing me in trying to deny my pain and I humble myself into her saying 'every client I see I grow': - every man I see I grow 😢❤

[@DeborahOlander]

Absolutely delightful as well as enlightening. Just lovely.

[@staceybillington683]

This is an excellent interview. Thank you!

[@shaz_66]

Thank you for this incredible interview!

[@pascaleo3615]

I'm an MFT in training and this interview was amazing! I plan to share it with as many people as possible.

[@mariapapadopoulou4499]

What an amazing and inspiring interview!! Many thanks to all three of you!!!

[@Ekkiert8]

Wow thank you for this video. Very insightful❤

[@punyashloka4946]

This was an amazing episode 👏.

[@capngrace84]

She's phenomenal!

[@mercedezp.6289]

Absolutely love this episode. Heard it on spotify, I am excited to watch your faces while watching this time!

[@wendycarter7867]

Wonderful interview

[@drsandhyathumsikumar4479]

Delightful 🎉

[@lisabrothers7184]

Inspirational 🎉

[@vedaventer7800]

Awesomeness

[@1999Chelsea]

What if you are alone? What if you are too afraid and unable to connect with others? Can you make do with surface relationships and do ok just being alone?

[@joannalach6628]

Couples can move through power struggle phase by understanding their attachment styles and their partner’s attachment styles. Each attachment is a set of subconsciously stored beliefs about ourselves and emotional bond. Partners trigger each other and fall into same arguments which reinforce attachment wounds like; I am unimportant, I don’t matter, I am not good enough, I am defective. By healing these wounds and with communication partners can finally move to commitment, stability and bliss phase.

[@SusanneGermanTutoring]

beautiful

[@lydiafourmy6661]

❤

[@allenadler]

Merci !

[@coppersense999]

Five kids! And no wonder, if he only feels loved by sex. Married 30 years, how hard did she have to work to prove she was sincere?? Im assuming a lot, but my goodness.

[@korpiz]

Perhaps is she had trained as a family and couples psychotherapist, she would have know better what to do initially. Slowing down an intense relationships interaction is like the first thing taught in systemic theory, not no to go Rogerian and apply an individualistic approach to relationships.

[@user-sd6sp5kg8u]

What is with the perminent smiles fixed irritatingly on your faces?