Forward Stroke, Push, Pull or Neutral

[@gsopaddler]

In watching the Chalupsky video, he said not to push, but the push he demonstrated is not at all the same stroke that you are doing when you're pushing. Ultimately the rotation, with the force from using your feet is the same as we're using in a touring kayak. His use of power strokes and a wing paddle is quite different from how we generally paddle on a sea kayak. Certainly some of these tips that can be utilized in a touring boat, but overall a different technique for a different type of boat, and with a different paddle.

[@AdventureOtaku]

yeah, and that was what I said in the comment stream last night. Both the boat and the wing paddle make things very different. There are always bits and pieces that can transfer but I think they are two very different situations.

[@JKL246]

Though I most often use a Greenland paddle, I agree with push or neutral. I’m mostIy neutral. I basically lock my arms at about 90 degrees with hands just above the deck and let torso rotation provide all of the pull. I think one issue is that most people don’t use torso to pull the paddle, so they may not understand that there is any other way to pull the paddle besides pulling with arms. If I’m correct, you basically lock your shoulder and arm to transfer the backwards torso rotation to the paddle to provide the pull, while using the forward arm to give a push. The backwards moving hand essentially is a fulcrum for the push from the forward hand and gives a backward kick to the paddle while the torso rotation is pulling it backward. Look at just about any video of someone paddling a touring boat and their torso never rotates at all. All you see is arms pushing forward and pulling backwards. Their elbow angle changes on the backward paddle movement, versus a neutral elbow that maintains a constant angle. Props to most paddlers that they have the shoulder/arm strength and stamina, but that would wear me out. My arms are small, so using arms alone wouldn’t work for me.

[@AdventureOtaku]

That’s exactly right, and the phrasing of let the torso rotation do the actual work of the pull is fantastic. Im going to use that in the future. Thanks.

[@JKL246]

FWIW, I have been paying much more attention to my forward stroke and I push more often than I realized, and my elbows are at about 110 degrees, not 90. This conversation has helped me be more mindful and recognize some asymmetry. Always something to improve on.

[@AdventureOtaku]

@JKL246 dude, there is ALWAYS something to improve on. You want to really improve your stroke - and I may have said this already - strap a GoPro to the front of your boat, and then put your stroke on KZbin for all to see! Seeing what your stroke actually looks like, is a huge teaching tool. Thanks for coming back and adding this.

[@TurningPointBoatworks]

Hey Brett! the forward stroke video was good and was highly useful for the intended audience. Forget about the wing stroke and high vs low angle. The very basic fundamentals are basically the same. As you say "push", I emphasize the same by saying the other hand is the anchor and the upper hand does push when the torso is rotated. So it all comes down to finding the terminology that the students, or viewers can understand. It think you've done that well. A phrase that has stuck with me for years is "use big muscles, not the small ones". The core muscles are bigger and have more power and endurance than the small arm muscles. So, utilize them! It all connects together. Strong core, upright paddling position (no slouching) for core rotation and power. It take no time to learn poor technique and years to undo it.

[@AdventureOtaku]

Thanks Joey I appreciate that. I like the big muscles vs small muscles. Consider it appropriated.

[@TurningPointBoatworks]

@@AdventureOtaku , have at it! Also, for all the wing strokers and surfski paddlers, a good efficient wing stroke is really hard to adapt to with a poor foundational forward stroke. So, by teaching good foundational skills, you are making the transition easier and at a higher success rate. I consider my forward stroke to be solid and that is making my transition to a wing stroke a lot easier.

[@AdventureOtaku]

That makes perfect sense with as little time as I have spent with a wing blade in my hands, having a solid forward stroke did make my 20 minutes with it seem pretty straightforward.

[@RBJ0001]

Hi Brett (and all), seems lovely and amusing to have run into (very polite!) controversy over this topic! I’ve paddled off and on since the 80’s and always been rubbish probably; high angle (until knackered), big feather, pulling with one had pushing slightly with the other. Since I don’t tend to grip the non-pulling hand, gently pushing is really the only thing stopping the paddle from falling. Surely makes a difference if racing or not?

[@AdventureOtaku]

Yeah, while I don’t pull, if I don’t push my paddle falls out of my hand….

[@markb2396]

Thanks Brett, another great posting. I enjoy all of your content especially stuff I know little about, eg the first aid wilderness myths. Guilty of holding wrong views on most of those! I teach mainly intermediate kayakers and my philosophy is to try to teach if possible as advanced a level of technique whatever the skill is. Because there is always a sound logic to why the advanced way is better. You don’t want a new paddler learning a beginner stroke, then putting in 100,000 strokes of poor technique and then having to relearn it. Been there, frustrating. A quick example with forward stroke. The biggest difference between a really sound stroke and an average one is unwinding the body rotation too early. Top paddlers are wound up until the blade is planted, beginning paddlers tend to be totally unwound before the paddle is planted leading to no power and also pulling the paddle back because there is no where else to go. By getting to this very early in a paddler’s learning journey one saves them a huge amount of effort re learning in future. Regarding the stroke is different for different boats and blades and disciplines. Disagree and you can see this when a K1 gun wing paddler gets into a sea kayak with a euro blade and the essentials are exactly the same, maybe ‘de tuned’, not as much rotation, lower cadence etc but technique is same.

[@marycrawford9428]

Oh interesting as regards plant then unwind. As a random novice, I think I will pay attention to this. I’m probably doing it wrong.

[@markb2396]

@@marycrawford9428 hi Mary, attached is a short clip of best practice. Balint Kopazt current Olympic 1000m gold medalist, ok we aren’t him but this is the correct rotational/paddle plant timing and we can de tune that course to suit our needs and our bodies. At 30seconds in note the timing. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHzOe3V_j5mgZrs

[@AdventureOtaku]

In fairness most novices are “doing it wrong” which isn’t to be hard on you. It is actually a fairly hard concept that most people struggle with in the beginning. It is the first real hurdle to kayaking. Thanks for watching!

[@AdventureOtaku]

With intermediates I can see pushing the starting point a little harder. But with beginners I think the early hurdles need to be attainable and fairly easy. And honestly I teach (mostly) the way NOLS taught me 23 years ago. For my book Enlightened kayaking I put a martial arts spin on it. I should do a video that talks in terms of wind, plant, unwind…. Maybe that will be next summers forward stroke video! Thanks for all your comments I appreciate the time you took and the care. Have a great day.

[@ALFarrell-kv6ok]

Perhaps the word 'push' needs more illustration? Most folks may think of 'pulling' as moving the paddle from bow towards stern along the side of the boat in order to row ourselves forward. They may think that 'pushing' is therefore what we do when we sweep the paddle along the side of the boat from stern towards bow in order to reverse the boat. Or does pushing mean that the hand closest to the water is loose and the upper hand is pushing forward to propel the paddle backwards in the water?

[@AdventureOtaku]

If you watch the other videos I have done - like the one I linked too, and gave “time” to go watch It clarifies. I speak about the air hand and the water hand (one high and one low) and where the push should go. The bottom hand is guiding the paddle back. The air hand is pushing and moving across your body and really ending up in front of the opposite shoulder. Great question though, thanks for watching. Go check out the other forward stoke videos - they are in a playlist!

[@ALFarrell-kv6ok]

@@AdventureOtaku Thank you for taking the time to reply. Much appreciated.

[@AdventureOtaku]

I work really hard to reply to all the comments, but honestly that channel is growing recently and I am not sure I am going to be able to continue that! It seems I have been replying to comments for DAYS! It’s usually just Sunday (the day I release videos.) Thanks for stopping by!

[@richardburpee6919]

Your videos have been very useful in my Kayaking over the past few seasons. Your knowledge has been great when choosing equipment and setup. I currently have a Delta 15.5GT which i love. With setup I am wondering how i know if my seating position is correct or not. I feel like it isn't edging as well as it should be, i lean it over and it seems very slow to respond. here are some stats, 5'10" 245 lbs, started with seat in full back position and have tried moving it to the middle position now. In the fullback position it seems to track well in waves but in middle position it seems to be twisted easily. as far as experience it is between beginner/intermediate. Another question is on pace. What is considered a good pace, some of my current paddles have been as follows: 6.7km 55 min @ 7.7kph, 6.08 km 46.54 @ 8kph, 14 km 1:56:35 @ 7.3 kph. Most times when im out and will do 12-18 km and average 7.3-7.5 kph. not sure if i'm going to slow or too fast but can easily hold that pace for at least 2-3 hours. I currently paddle mainly on lake ontario near the toronto area. Winds can very but usually not to bad with around 1-2' chop I would greatly appreciate any advice you can give me. Rich

[@AdventureOtaku]

Hey Rich, sorry for the delay I am traveling. Ill go in reverse order, the best I can without seeing you paddle. Your speed is high (which isn’t bad if you aren’t exhausted at the end) I think in knots, but 7.7 kph is over 4 knots. I cruise at 3 to 3.5. My concern is that you are arm paddling, as opposed to using your core and legs. So if arms, or shoulders are tired at the end of a session then your technique is off. Regarding the seat position, yes, if the seat is further back, you are lowering the stern into the water more, which will help the boat track. BUT it will make it harder to turn. It is all about trade offs. I think my seat is 3/4 of the way back? Find a balance that works for you. On the edging I would have to see video of you putting the boat on edge to see if it looks like it is slow. I tight be slow to come up on edge if you are moving around inside the cockpit, meaning you don’t have a snug fit. We want the boat to move when we move. So make sure your legs are locked into the cockpit coaming. If you have follow up info or questions email me BrettATadventureotaku.com

[@richardburpee6919]

Thanks for the advice. Shoulders and arms aren’t tired at all could probably go longer if needed. Learning to edge properly is probably key and so I will experiment with seating and see how that goes. Thanks again.

[@AdventureOtaku]

If you can manage it I would love to see video of your forward stroke.