Four Kinds of Knowing and Personality, Formal Cause, and Purpose with Sam Tideman

Dr. John Vervaeke engages in an in-depth conversation with Sam Tideman, delving into the four kinds of knowing - procedural, propositional, perspectival, and participatory - and how they relate to personality and understanding of religion. They explore the concept of purpose from both philosophical and psychological perspectives, touching upon the historical and cosmic scale of purpose, human uniqueness in understanding purpose, and the functional purpose in nature. The episode also includes a discussion on Spinoza's philosophy and the importance of mindset and awareness, leading to reflections on the implications of purpose for humanity.
Glossary of Terms
Propositional knowledge: Knowledge of facts.
Procedural knowing: Knowing how to do something.
Perspectival knowing: Knowing by noticing aspects of things within how you are sizing up a situation. Knowing what it is like to be noticing from the state of mind you are in of the situation you are in. Knowing what is like being in a particular perspective.
Participatory knowing: Knowing by being. It refers to knowing how to act in the “agent-arena” environment-how the world and you are shaped by the same principles and processes to fit together, whether those processes are natural or cultural. Gravity shapes you, and the ground and culture shape you and the environment into a floor for walking. It is knowing by participating in affordances co-created by you and the world.
Resources and References:
Sam Tideman
KZbin: / @transfigured3673
John Vervaeke
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
Patreon: / johnvervaeke
Facebook: / vervaekejohn
X: / vervaeke_john
KZbin: / @johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation: vervaekefoundation.org/
The Vervaeke Foundation
John Vervaeke KZbin
Awakening from the Meaning Crisis: • Awakening from the Mea...
Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, and Naturalism w/ Sam Adams: • Neoplatonism, Gnostici...
Books, Articles, Publications, and Videos
Spinoza's Religion: A New Reading of the Ethics - Clare Carlisle: www.amazon.com/Spinozas-Relig...
Philosopher of the Heart: The Restless Life of Søren Kierkegaard - Clare Carlisle: www.amazon.com/Philosopher-He...
John Vervaeke on the relevance of Neoplatonism today | Transfigured: • John Vervaeke on the r...
Quotes
"It's knowing this with your states of consciousness, states of consciousness always have co-defining situational awareness." - John Vervaeke, on perspectival knowing
"The way your agency and your character are shaped and your biology is shaped to fit the environment... that's participatory knowing." - John Vervaeke
Chapters with Timestamps
[00:00:00] Introduction of Dr. John Vervaeke
[00:03:07] The Four Kinds of Knowing
[00:04:20] Christian Doctrinal Differences and Kinds of Knowing
[00:08:07] Deeper Definitions and Taxonomy of the Four Ps
[00:17:23] Discussion on Personality and Kinds of Knowing
[00:32:16] Exploring Human Consciousness and Purpose
[00:41:33] The Universe, Life, and the Concept of Purpose
[00:48:22] Human Uniqueness in Understanding Purpose
Timestamped Highlights
[00:00:00] Introduction of Dr.John Vervaeke
[00:03:07] Explanation of the four kinds of knowing
[00:04:20] Discussion on Christian doctrinal differences
[00:08:07] In-depth definitions of the four Ps
[00:17:23] Connecting personality types with kinds of knowing
[00:22:35] Integrating various kinds of knowing for holistic spiritual and personal development
[00:32:16] Exploration of human consciousness and purpose
[00:39:40] Debate on redemptive narrative in history
[00:41:33] The challenge of fitting the Christian mythological arc to the modern understanding of the universe
[00:44:11] Discussing the concept of incarnation
[00:48:22] Human uniqueness in understanding purpose
[00:50:30] The functional purpose in nature
[00:52:28] Mount Everest as an example of purpose without consciousness
[00:53:14] Introduction to Spinoza’s concept of conatas
[00:58:00] Reflecting on the quality of life in the universe
[01:05:00] The significance of life beyond quantity
[01:10:30] Philosophical implications of understanding purpose
[01:20:20] Discussing the impact of human mortality awareness on purpose and understanding
[01:30:00] Understanding purpose in existence and its implications in Christianity and pragmatism

[@TriggerIreland]

Been searching for summative discussion on the 4P's and found this. Yay. In my notes I have; I, We That, This, for Perspectival, Participatory, Propositional, Procedural. Time for a cup of tea.

[@zeldaguy32]

John, there's a scene in the movie Good Will Hunting where the character played by Robin Williams goes to meet Will, the character played by Matt Damon, in a park. Will gets lectured by Robin Williams' character for being a brat and a naive kid. It's an iconic scene. I find that scene does such a good job of getting to the heart of the difference between propositional knowing and these other kinds of knowing. I wanted to bring it to your attention because it might be one of the best pieces of popular culture I've found that can be used to really introduce this to those who are new to it. it's the best one I've thought of. God bless your work. it's been a great find. hope to see more and more.

[@johnvervaeke]

That is excellent! I know the scene.

[@pantherstealth1645]

I really needed to hear that about love as a mode. That clears so much up for my understanding of my own situations.

[@erlinae1]

Third time, endless in delivering wisdom

[@paxdriver]

This was positively enthralling. Thank you so much.

[@pantherstealth1645]

👏👏👏🙏🥳 thank you John! Can’t wait to listen💪😎

[@jograves8859]

This was a wonderful conversation. It’s awesome because about a year ago when I first heard about your four ways of knowing I saw that it lined up with Carl Jungs original 4 functions of the brain. Thinking, Feeling, Sensing and Intuition. 1. Propositional knowing (Thinking - Logic) - Knowing about things - Episteme - a principled system of understanding; scientific knowledge. 2. Procedural knowing (Sensation - Experience) - Techne - the material composition of industry as well as to the rules, procedures, and skills used to achieve a particular end. - Knowing how to do things - Skill acquisition 3. Perspectival knowing (Intuition - Abstract Framing) - Noesis - purely intellectual apprehension, knowledge of the eternal forms or ideas. - Knowing how to perceive the world 4. Participatory knowing (Feeling - Mind of the Heart) - Gnosis - a spiritual knowledge or insight into humanity's real nature as divine, leading to the deliverance of the divine spark within humanity from the constraints of earthly existence. - Knowing how to relate to the world - knowing by sharing a fundamental identity with something, almost like a knowing by isomorphism, a knowing by becoming, which also comes with a certain degree of imitation and internalization

[@jograves8859]

The main reason I feel this is relevant is because of the personality connection yall were talking about in this episode. The four functions and four ways of knowing can definitely lead to different personality types that reveal themselves as cognitive biases. Everyone leans on a natural way of knowing and can develop the other ways of knowing as they grow.

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@jograves8859 I have good sense for your knowing extension for clear idea, thank you for sharing insight ^^ The things are what we feel about and relevant for well-being, I don't know much about it yet but feeling they are great ideas.

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@jograves8859I have learned about Jung some years ago, I have not have relation with this topic, it would open me to see further^^

[@frederik188]

That was a fascinating discussion. Thanks a lot for sharing these foods for thought. I appreciate the work you put into your thinking and further your effort to spread the fruits of your labor with the world. Please keep going.

[@ddod7236]

Like the initial Sam/John conversation about the polar bears, this one sorta blew my mind too. Love these two together.

[@noreenquinn3844]

A very interesting talk, gentlemen. Thank you. It made me think that perhaps God is being? The perfect goodness? Perhaps we are acquainted through God. God is in us, and we are in God? Being is what gives sparkle to things. It brings things to life. It is the good, the beautiful, and the truth which we all revel in. It is the ultimate giving and receiving. We roll in it and with it and are most beautiful when we become one with it. It is only when we separate from it that we hit a wall become awkward. The wall rises as if out of nowhere. It stops us in our tracks and speaks. Who speaks? There is a wall in every Everest, in every oceans, lake, creature, and day. It is evident throughout nature. It is evil, cruel, selfish, greedy, and empty. It is nothingness. Yet, without it, we wouldn't know its opposite, good. It has the potential to build virtue or to destroy it. It is perhaps necessary in a developing relationship with the good, with God? We can look evil in the face and turn away. We can choose not to grant it our gaze. We can distract others from it with that powerful weapon that Iris Murdoch brought to my attention, i.e., the benevolent gaze. We can turn likewise towards a benevolent gaze when evil approaches us. We can ensure that there is a benevolent gaze for each other to turn to.

[@erlinae1]

Every time I think I’ve seen the best video I come upon another one that completely sets me straight to take additional notice. I am in Enneagram teacher. This is not a field of psychology that has been particularly validated by science although recently cognitive science is starting to pay attention to its content. The system is ancient. I do think the nine types and now with a deeper understanding the four P’s it will catapult my thinking to a completely new level. I wish to thank you continuously for expanding me beyond anything l hoped that I could have achieved in this lifetime. I am taking your work to the world as I learn to participate, your determination to bring wisdom to this world is needed, remarkable and filled with bottomless love. Thank you.

[@andrew_blank]

I absolutely loved the beautiful back and forth between you two. So much mutual respect. Re: Tom Holland’s argument - the argument doesn’t carry weight as an apologetic for the validity and superiority of Christianity, therefore proving The Way or isn’t adequate to explain Western civilization as an axis The West swivels around?

[@colorfulbookmark]

I forgot to greet seasons celebration ^^ Merry Christmas for Dr.Vervaeke and guests ^^ Graceful holiday!!

[@motiveinmotivation383]

Wow!!!!! Magnificent

[@dianehillier2336]

I love the discussion about christian sects. I have contemplated the connection between personality and sect. And thought about a connection between epicureanism, stoicism etc and Christan sectarianism.

[@ChadTheAlcoholic]

Wow great re introduction

[@WisdomMeaningandJoy]

It's a great explication of the four kinds of knowing, further paving the way for wisdom.

[@TimCCambridge]

👍👍Excellent, thanks! Is the practical environment ( radius of known map or field ) intrinsically interconnected with purpose? Purposing in interconnection? An appeal to sense awareness of the Field as a natural reconnection to that which is greater?

[@royaebrahim2449]

❤

[@Richard_Paradise]

It's good.

[@acuerdox]

1:13:40 E=MCsquared IS the "for"

[@whalene]

Fantastic chat! The mountain stuff is a tautology! You guys need to learn some physics and thermo! I would love to chat you about that...

[@denesetler]

John, this was a wonderful conversation and summary! I wonder, is there any scientific or philosophical paper written on the four kinds of knowing such that academics can use that framework more rigourously? Is there anything pusblished on this?

[@navnbruker]

drive.google.com/file/d/1_DnixNWOSujl5VlBpHBsvrwZv7neuMds/view

[@acuerdox]

1:05:17 beauty, truth, goodness ARE purpose, they're the way, purpose is not utility.

[@acuerdox]

when a person exclaim "I've found my purpose!" they don't do so right after asking their parents "what did you have me for?", what such a person means is "I've found a worldview inside witch I find meaning, which changed the shape of my whole past and future plans" in such a way that they act with purpose, which means that their action have meaning.

[@pantherstealth1645]

I use “cognizant” all the time!

[@pantherstealth1645]

‘Parameter’ is also one of my favorite terms

[@jonyspinoza3310]

🌞

[@GrimrDirge]

48:20 how would you respond to Tomasello's assertions about the inability of chimps to for a joint "we" intentionality? He characterizes human shared intention as well beyond chimps. I don't recall him addressing dogs per se, but I would assume that chimps would be closer to use and it sounds like they are stuck behind a cognitive wall.

[@johnvervaeke]

I think he is correct. Our super power is our joint attention. Dogs are an exception because we have been electively breeding them for around 50000 years to be able to have joint attention with us.

[@acuerdox]

1:31:47 what does that question mean? indicate an over-arching narrative? so a story? but we can make anything into a story

[@colorfulbookmark]

I think honoring and respect forward to Four Kinds of Knowing theory, when receptive thinking man escapes from particular kind of egocentrism which is internalized guilty practice every blame is to him (which is not really), the Four Kinds of Knowing theory can make improvement for the man within relevant realization, I think it is not only self-help endeavor, which can turn some people's mentality more stronger, and even if accepting all of it, attitude is so, then things are well. Of course, trust is always contributory part of it though ^^

[@colorfulbookmark]

This kind of egocentrism is good? "I don't think intellectuals make video for me, I still feel sorry because they spent time for me (?)" ^^;;

[@projectmalus]

If the sun's rays in radial sprays come over the ocean for no maS/Sam Tide-man-beach (to borrow the guest for 3 moments) the past foothills are higher than the beach now, objects are pie slices with a curved perimeter where self is (the beach, as the mezzanine) and the procedural seems like the ability to move from foothills to beach to the triangle or radial wedge pointing to the Sun, the conatas perhaps. How about clairvoyance for lightness of being as getting to the point/origin in relatio religio? A subdivision of the perspectival where one can regard the conatas without objectification, or some would say attachment. Clear voyage allowing origin as pantograph pin and self rides that leaping mechanism. One way out is to regard the human as in the mammal object, in relation there too with the non-mammal. More beach to walk and cycloid symbiosis to explore. Thanks.

[@CliffJekel]

Dr. John, fascinating discussion but what argument are you attributing to Tom Holland? All he was doing in Dominion (to my reading) was pointing out the Christiian influences on western culture. There was no “therefore” regarding “God” in fact isn’t he an agnostic?

[@johnvervaeke]

You may be correct but I see his work being used in apologetic style arguments.

[@PiousParable]

Sam seems to have a bone to pick with organized religion; many of his insights (though highly relevant) seem slightly tainted by that lens. Great talk!!

[@acuerdox]

1:35:13 purpose = utility or instrumentality???????????????????

[@TimCCambridge]

👍👍Hi. 1:19:22 We don't head towards Heaven... rather we reconnect to it as an unfolding activity...?

[@stevenmathews7621]

love your work John keep fighting the good fight I'd suggest (I actually don't know crap, but.. this is a thought that came) you come across very uncomfortable when you're not talking to people for reading something to the camera (beyond memorising it)... there's a very effective cheap option - a half silvered mirror (a one-way mirror) angled 45° to reflect the script kzbin.info/www/bejne/j5a1pmeujq2SjZI think you'd benefit from this love your stuff keep doing what you're doing

[@callummilburn8204]

5th is knowing where my odd socks are?

[@acuerdox]

1:20:35 this "steady progression" thing is nonsense, why would purpose be linear? what would be something that we can understand or put into words? edit: it only needs to happen once to be real, purpose is what some call objectivity, or truth, or reality.

[@acuerdox]

when anglos say "purpose" in spanish that translates to "meaning", nobody means objective when they say purpose.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Say silent...if silent? Likewise acknowledge with Gratitude and Honor unto all the shared i AM. Why HEAR? Heirs and our Beautiful will say LET THEM HEAR! Liken unto "WHY HEAR ONE ANOTHER VOICES'"? A little "i" will say, who are ye ALL are talking too? What is a conversations without the AM=1. WHAT IS #? HERE YE ALL ARE IN FRONT! Heirs will say what is a Name nor names unto all the Who am I? In front of...students will say even given space and room to grow to say "Who am I"? What is a purpose all thy feet resting upon the very tip of time upon WHO'S FOOTSTOOL? Now students why the OLIVER JAMITO BORN DECEMBER 29 1976 SIGNITURE. Who is that NEW DAY? Life among the LIVING. Some will say what is Dead? Knows belongs? Among the Dead. Can the dead...why are ye all ALIVE? Why there's something rather than nothing? Who else? But shared....all made knows belongs? But without thy shared I AM. Who can exist? But from Thy shared I AM! From who am I to a little Child "i" with Thy AM. NOW WHO ARE YOU? What is a Name without Thy shared I AM? Nevertheless if the True Owner will say, What is Your name? Likewise why thy name nor all Names exist in front? Students will say remembering ye once born, to crawling, to walking, and till now thy feet resting upon the very tip of time. Mileage from thy feet is recognize! Is required. Why?

[@mellonglass]

Self assumed goodness, uses the language of transaction. The artist has no owner, even if goodness claims it. The painting is of peasants and locals, dressed in cloth, to be assumed of great stature and importance. Only the satire of an artist can survive his own renditions of fake news and the spells they created.

[@RockMe1977]

If the whole of humanity behaved like Jesus and just do away with all religions...there would be a lot less people dying and whole lot of broken hearts getting mended and loved instead. We all need to become Jesus, do what Jesus would do, living love is living alive...all religions aside ❤

[@projectmalus]

That might get rid of religio relatio, to put it in an odd way: In the English language, there's choices in the ontology presented as being and moving. That is, nouns don't have to relate to being and verbs to moving, it could be the other way round or neither, which makes more sense as adverbs "being" since everything moves anyway so the relatedness enters being while the moving without that is trivial. Similarly for adjectives as moving, the red ball since the ball shape is approximated and the red defined, self moving to that. edit: so the point I think is that one has to fix the language after fixing the Jesus behavior and it ripples out to requiring perfect knowledge which moves away from religio relatio and into objectification.

[@josephlawrence3857]

Is religion the issue or those who participate in it? Halfheartedly or self-sevingly or singlemindedly, these were even the apostles Jesus chose

[@dalibofurnell]

❤

[@EmilBJJLuton]

❤