Zen, Awareness, and American Spirituality | Philosophy of Meditation #4 with Thomas Metzinger

In the fourth episode of the Philosophy of Meditation series, John Vervaeke, Rick Repetti, and guest Thomas Metzinger delve into the intricate world of meditation and mindfulness. The conversation weaves through the paradoxes of Zen Buddhism, exploring the 'Neither One Nor Many' concept and the profound realms of deep water awareness in meditation. They tackle the current crisis in American spirituality and discuss the impactful 'Awakening for the Meaning Crisis' series. The episode also sheds light on the Minimal Phenomenal Experience project and the vital role of intellectual honesty in meditation practices. Throughout the episode, they delve into complex themes such as self-deception, mortality denial, and the influence of psychedelic practices on meditation, offering a comprehensive view of the intertwining of meditation, spirituality, and intellectual discourse.
Thomas Metzinger, recently retired Professor of Theoretical Philosophy at Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, remains celebrated for his contributions to philosophy and cognitive science. As an Adjunct Fellow at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Study, he authored significant works like "Being No One" and "The Ego Tunnel." His extensive research over 47 years in meditation intertwines analytic philosophy of mind, applied ethics, and cognitive science.
Glossary of Terms
Minimal Phenomenal Experience (MPE): The simplest form of conscious experience.
Non-Egoic Awareness: A state of consciousness where the self or ego is not the central aspect of experience.
John Vervaeke:
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
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Rick Repetti:
Website: www.rickrepetti.com/
Instagram: / rickrepetti
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Facebook: / philosophicalpractitioner
Thomas Metzinger:
Website:
www.philosophie-e.fb05.uni-ma...
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The Vervaeke Foundation - vervaekefoundation.org/
Awaken to Meaning - awakentomeaning.com/
John Vervaeke KZbin
Awakening from the Meaning Crisis • Awakening from the Mea...
Books, Articles, and Publications
Routledge Handbook on the Philosophy of Meditation - Rick Repetti
www.amazon.com/Routledge-Hand...
Being No One: The Self-Model Theory of Subjectivity - Thomas Metzinger www.amazon.com/Being-No-One-S...
The Ego Tunnel: The Science of the Mind and the Myth of the Self - Thomas Metzinger www.amazon.com/Ego-Tunnel-Sci...
The Elephant and the Blind: The Experience of Pure Consciousness: Philosophy, Science, and 500+ Experiential Reports - Thomas Metzinger www.amazon.com/Elephant-Blind...
The Problem of Pure Consciousness: Mysticism and Philosophy - Robert K. C. Forman www.amazon.com/Problem-Pure-C...
Predictive processing and relevance realization: exploring convergent solutions to the frame problem. Phenomenology and the Cognitive Sciences. Andersen, B. P., Miller, M., & Vervaeke, J. (2022)
link.springer.com/article/10....
Trying Not to Try: Ancient China, Modern Science, and the Power of Spontaneity - Edward Slingerland www.amazon.com/Trying-Not-Try...
M-Autonomy. Journal of Consciousness Studies Metzinger, Thomas (2015). www.blogs.uni-mainz.de/fb05ph...
Are you sleepwalking now? What we know about mind wandering. Aeon. Metzinger, T. (2013). aeon.co/essays/are-you-sleepw...
The Robot's Rebellion: Finding Meaning in the Age of Darwin - Keith E. Stanovich www.amazon.com/Robots-Rebelli...
Quotes
"In meditation, awareness can become non egoically aware of itself." - Thomas Metzinger
Chapters
[00:00:00] - Introduction: Overview of Meditation Topics
[00:04:40] - Awareness: Minimal Phenomenal Experience
[00:07:41] - Thomas' Insights: Consciousness Redefinition
[00:14:45] - Meditative Consciousness: Non-Duality and Perception
[00:27:02] - Meditation and Conscious Evolution
[00:42:00] - Redefining Spirituality: Meaning Crisis and Mortality
[00:57:35] - Tackling Self-Deception: Balanced Practices
[01:11:43] - Global Change: Government and AI Engagement
[01:18:09] - Conscious Practice: Honest Spiritual Approaches

[@pot-8-o564]

He has an interesting perspective. And he calls it intellectual honesty which is interesting. He also reffered to himself as a gloomy european, again, interesting. Ive been fascinated by the dichotomy of pessimistic and optimistic thinking for a while now and how these mindsets work as a sort of implicit bias, resulting in very different interpretation of reality.

[@rodcameron7140]

That is a wonderfully thought provoking idea... especially when expanded to the many different forms that rushed into my head when I read it. Optimism/depression, the "quarterback"/ "wallflower", the "industrialist"/"naturalist", and of course the "materialist"/"dualist". I find that trying to understand WHY people believe what they believe is a source of endless fascination for me, but your statement brought into focus the fact that reality itself transforms according to our adopted role. ...I do believe you have just passed on your fascination to me. At least for the next few months. :)

[@pot-8-o564]

@@rodcameron7140 My fascination for this has come out of my own experience with having bipolar disorder. oscillating between two extreme states of mind quite frequently depression/ecstasy.

[@rodcameron7140]

@@pot-8-o564 I see. That would be an illuminating precursor. Mine was because of the amount of growth I've done in the past couple of years. I wish you well in your battle with bipolar disorder. That can't be easy.

[@Amal0802]

I was thinking the exact same thing. Why I think that while I really respect his insights and efforts, I don't think he should lead the charge on secular spirituality. It's gotta be someone who's accomplished a good spiritual secular life and reached good consciousness states as he called it. While the void he points to is v real and most be prioritized, don't recommend someone as cynical/pessimistic as Thomas as pied piper. Could put humanity in a worse place than already is.

[@libaax1342]

Thank you John, Rick for inviting Thomas, the conversation enriched me. Thank you Thomas for your thoughts, will buy your books.

[@TheMeditatingPhilosopher]

I don't think I've ever seen the Amazing Rick Repetti in that shirt, so he must have been excited for this (and I can see why!). What an excellent series so far. I think it has a timeless quality to it and expect it will be a treasure for a long time. ❤

[@emilthiels6256]

This was very dynamic interaction, and dialog. Thomas brought elements whit his "bewustzijns cultur" that give some new drive and view. There is a lot of people working on this level and since years on"street level"basic, groundwork every day, drop by drop. The topics your are talking about is the expression of what is fermenting on since...Once again John, Rick and Thomas Thanks !for your involvement (and expression) in this fundamental work. I was positively surprised with the story of the encounter of Thomas and Krishnamurti.

[@henrytep8884]

This was a really great episode. I hope to see a part two with Thomas in the future if possible. Thank you for the episode.

[@omniarasadesign8843]

Thank you very much

[@slicersharp]

I enjoy this conversation thoroughly ,thank you guys

[@ShaharHeyHey669]

Just found you john, i get pretty excited when i find such an intelligent and nuanced thinker. Ive seen you cover plato, eastern metaphysics, and cognitive science in such a way as to reconcile concepts and science with the human experience

[@siarez]

This was a great and thought provoking discuss for me. Thank you.

[@cbs8585]

Hi John, I think Hip Hop has a place here. It's an American art form with an ecology of practices. 1. Break Dancing (dance) 2. Graffiti (visual art) 3. Spoken Word (the MC) and 4. DJ-ing. This bridge would introduce your work to a wide audience and could be the pick to help unlock and steal the culture. You have done jazz, Hip Hop is the child of jazz. Just a thought that hit like an insight while driving. Thanks for your work.. cheers

[@johnvervaeke]

I love the idea. To whom should I talk?

[@cbs8585]

@johnvervaeke The name that came to mind is KRS One. He is a founding father, an educator, historian and I believe has the most well-rounded depth when it comes to these practices and how and why they developed. I believe he has something for you.

[@johnvervaeke]

@@cbs8585 Thx!

[@ethernatecable]

KRS 1!!!!!

[@JaredMorningstar]

@@johnvervaekeJon Ivan Gill. He wrote the book “Underground Rap as Religion: A Theopoetic Examination of Process Aesthetic Religion”-very relevant to these discussions, coming from traditions of process philosophy and theology.

[@asherphoenix5584]

I would absolutely love to see you and your guest engage in meditation before starting each episode. I would be extremely curious to see the difference in clarity, if any would be present.

[@JiminiCrikkit]

just a few minutes in and im already very much enjoying this fascinating talk

[@ptadisbander7959]

Hey this one didn’t upload in the John Vervaeke podcasts on the Apple Podcasts. Would be great to have it as audio.

[@dougcummings6000]

Excellent discussion!

[@devilinlee]

That was excellent.

[@Right_in2]

Great episode

[@polymathpark]

Could we say that the prioritization of acknowledging and embodying phenomenological experiences is best referred to as "experimentalism?" Thus far, this is the most logical and intellectually honest approach to life, supercedeing existentialism and romanticism. The reckoning with our meaninglessness and attempting to substantiate value in experiences could be viewed as what Becker called a "proper lying to ourselves." I have wrestled with this for years since reading this in Denial of Death. also, a couple of relevant books: Contemplative science by A. Wallace, and The Theravada Abhidhama: inquiry into the nature of consciousness.

[@TimCCambridge]

👍👍Great! Love these explorations, thanks! Being Within. The experience of the un-talking, un-describing pervading existence. The seeker is like a fish asking " What is this Water they all talk about? ". Putting it like this might convey my humble experience of the encompassing whole. The edgeless edge.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Students will say many scratching their heads! In their Heads. Remember ye all came from HERE 1ST! We whistle while we contributing unto one another. Now who among discouraging? Not hearing! The whistling? Indeed is required to recognize one another and knowing to come together. Gratitude and Honor knows belongs. But remember is not who agrees unto one another but ...BELOVED UNTO ALL "WHO DISAGREE"!

[@joebossano9440]

Sirs this gentleman's work seems so important and he speaks so accessibly, I would love to see the book he just mentioned 32 minutes in published in English and it sounds like something Perspectiva would find valuable so I wonder if they've been approached?

[@russellmason5095]

I thought John meant "steel the culture" as in make us strong and not "steal the culture" the first time he said it. The best description of the Pure Consciousness Event I have come across is "sheer awareness gazing into sheer awareness" I think it's from Tilopa, but Thomas also did a great job of talking about the ineffable in a clear and level-headed way. It was great to see that he has independently come up with a project that is similar to your own. Let's hope you can both be successful!

[@waltraudschill4648]

wonderful discussion, thank you, I highly recommend Metzinger's "Der Elefant und die Blinden".

[@GrapplingwithReality]

Myself and several friends have watched afotmc 3 times 😂 I have met college kids who have watched the whole thighs in 3 weeks!

[@kolskit]

I was honestly surprised and a bit bummed that John and Rick had nothing to say about life's extensive breadth and depth in reply to the idea (presented as though it was both profound and 'wouldn't want to be accepted by the type who aren't ready for the hard truths') that nothing about our current reality gives any proof of life after death or anything more substantive than a physical emergence. It was a tough section for me to get through, and the subject was immediately changed.

[@mcnallyaar]

💯 Ten out of Ten, Best of the Best of the Internet. LOVE the Ego Tunnel. Can't wait for the new book!

[@jellevanbaardewijk7253]

This man Metzinger is so humble. Must be fresh for you, Americans! ;-) But mind you, he is an analytical philosopher with soul. Something like that is very rare.

[@mianilsson3550]

What is he thinking about the Russians war in Ukraine, when putin kills millions of people with the acceptance of the world??? Can meditation practise to stop putin’s genocide of Ukrainian??

[@oboy9090]

Why are "anti-entropic systems not meant to simulate any situations in which they do not exist anymore"?

[@pantherstealth1645]

💪💪💪😎 What is worth more than learning?

[@junjunjarjarbinx]

I would love to be interviewed!

[@joebossano9440]

Please can we have a conversation between John and Thomas on this point of the 'meaning of life' idea, and whether and what substance there might be there...? How are we to be realists about the meaning we can find in our lives if we don't go as deep as possible into the corresponding metaphysics...

[@jonyspinoza3310]

🌞

[@dalibofurnell]

Awesome ❤ Looking forward to this

[@quixodian]

There is empirical evidence of past-life memory.

[@raresmircea]

Fantastic to see you together engaged in discussion

[@colorfulbookmark]

The spirituality in this video is similar practice with Korean conception of 情, 善, and 禪. The phenomenal or lingual denotations are different, but ultimate intentionality is same. If we have 情 to live community life, it is 善 and it led us 禪, in Korean pronunciation of the two latters is same ^^ The meditation's way is ultimately to recommend these three virtues, what I think the most important conception 禪 is not "silence" but "calm" active explications of these three virtues. The talk between teacher and pupil is 禪問答, which is often understood as 禪 is autonomy at some sense that is not communicable in short sessions. 頓悟漸修 is so truth and this video's fellows would like to suggest this for American spirituality so many people in this channel love it so much ^^ I learn much and have revere is this way ^^

[@barbarabartels5449]

My son teaches underprivileged teen agers, they get to have cell phones in class! They barely listen to the lessons! outrageous!!

[@colorfulbookmark]

I think awareness is multi-dimensional term, awareness is to aware friendship too, but its understanding in social norm is different and fixated by subsequential events, so I think Ian Hacking's introduction to ideationism is way to be good awareness to not only one and to others too. The rule following in Kripke's introduction is also similarly way and there is relevant realization not only to the "subject" person, "subject" in grammar school changes to "object" I think this is very often autonomy failure.

[@alexandrazachary.musician]

Wow! Metzinger! I’ve been in love with him for years! Unfortunately he is planning more solitude and deep practice in his retirement. 😜😜😜 Thanks John and Pickle Rick. Can’t wait for Evan Thompson too. ❤️❤️❤️

[@PeterIntrovert]

I wonder how Rick would have reacted to Metzinger if they talked about free will. Thomas as I know it have the same opinion on the topic as Robert Sapolsky and the later was called ignorant by Rick. I think belief in free will is part of self-deceptive ego narrative mentoned by Thomas that is cultivated by Rick and he isn't willing to let go of it.

[@Amal0802]

Yep. No free will is a strong premise of Thomas's book - ego tunnel

[@wehsee912]

🌚☄️❤️💫

[@howiewhitehouse1202]

You CAN become 'one with it' if you use Aurobindo's model of Self Integration where one is firstly a unique individual embodied consciousness, and is secondly a relational social 'being-in-culture', and thirdly a being that is intimately infused with the transpersonal transcendent Mystery of Creation --which gives rise to the portal of the Fourth Realm a type of Pregnant Emptiness. Dr. H.S. Whitehouse

[@oliverjamito9902]

Pop John is the little Child "i" from afar EAST from Phillipi! Ways of speaking...what affects? Do i have a plane riches nor wealth like many TRYING TO MOVE MOUNTAINS! Students given ABLE! Commanded to keep watch! Is like...will shame the WISE OF THIS WORLD IN FRONT of WHO?

[@oliverjamito9902]

Students what is super nor...what ever?

[@ElijahLogozar]

awareness!

[@missh1774]

53:10 hmm interesting as it is one of those things the Anglo Saxon cannot do so well. I'm not surprised by Thomas's conclusion. But only as a Anglo Saxon trait. Idk about the reason for staying quiet about these mythic forms of threading needles or weaving the cloths and nets but I do know it is strictly considered improper social conversation when in the company of those reformist lineages. 👀 1:07:00 that looks like the European concern that falls on deaf American ears. "It must be important to the institution" or "it has to be something that cannot be denied by the untouchable 50% of academic works" 🤭 funny. 1:17:40 living work is not the same as those who have jobs. There is alot of praxis involved in closing that in-come knowledge gap and it's really important we continue having those local pairing conversations about how we swap out with better quality or greater quality of living than what we had in previous times.

[@Nonconceptuality]

How can someone see 60 hours of talking as clearing up a problem with meaning? This is an indication that the theory itself has fallen into the same crisis as that which it is trying to fix. Unfortunately those 50 episodes (fifty!!) are a PROPAGATION of the meaning crisis.

[@asherphoenix5584]

In a sense I can see your meaning, in that, in trying to frame the meaning crisis he has created uncertainty in those who struggle to grasp the concepts or to those who have conflicting models. As someone who has finished the series, probably took me closer to 100 hours with all my stopping and starting and replaying, and still not fully grasping, the argument. I found it deeply profound and resonated with it very much. I am someone who already listened to a great deal of Alan Watts and Ram Dass, and to some Terrance McKenna to a lesser extent. I find John's work to be resonant with their works, and love the amount of science he brings to the argument(which creates a sense of security I can't find in the woo stuff that my Western mind can't contend with easily). It also corresponds with a great deal of my own personal experiences and insights that I've gathered through meditation and hallucinogens. I would be interested to see why you think it contributes to the meaning crisis in your own words. In willing to be convinced by a good argument

[@Nonconceptuality]

Why didn't I get a ❤️ , John? Why don't you respond to my questions about your theory/teaching? I'm beginning to feel that your speak is disingenuous.

[@knoweagle888]

Objective truth, the elusive muse Subjective fused to point-of-you Not won plus Too! Flew the coup None can view but few who lose The third eye opens, the show beholden Unhides thy notions now lies in open Two see in three, thee unperceived The cuff rebuffs what’s up the sleeve Consciousness, ALL presence sense Expanse condensed in present tense Awake in states, the stage remakes The matrix shakes and changes shapes Some say Satori, no a priori Kensho in glory restored before thee Essential essence, quiescent lesson Peer perceptions of pure expressions The Philosopher’s stone, above below The gold bestowed transmutes the soul Behind the science, defiant lions Mind of Midas the climb triumphant Enlightenment, the mystic dreamt To hell he went before ascent In the darkest depths, bequest of breath Lucent slept as death protects The Tao that’s told, exposed a road Ebb ‘n’ flow already closed The road for one, sum of none Each dream a means to end begun Objective truth, who can view? Chosen choose not up to you A razor’s edge, the ledge of true Exception leapt, few prove the rule…

[@knoweagle888]

Spiritual not religious Empirically soul fictitious Wish for bliss inauspicious Hit ‘n’ miss in superstitious Ask no questions smiley face First impressioned, truth displaced Second guessing tale to chase Third perception not awake! All aboard that Big Spirit Ship Hip to trip to sea sickness Skip abyss to drift amiss Designer minds of unconsciousness Choose illusions manifest Gods ‘n’ Goddesses none-the-less Audience captive dressed success Prey to passions of thy flesh Practice presence power play Frame transcendence runaway Think that heaven’s here to stay Moral relevance naïveté Hold those poses breathe-in-deep Pre-supposes soul techniques Clothes beholden peak physique Show devotion sheik retreats Medicate and meditate Pay-to-pray and celebrate Inflate to “states” initiates “Stage” no way assimilates Think divine is “you’re” directive Love ‘n’ light in-sight selective Keep in mind-full soul subjective To sacrifice like Christ’s objective!

[@aurora3655]

No. Ur going in the wrong direction. Its not Japanese, nor American, nor Canadian, nor Chinese, nor spiritual, etc etc etc etc…Ur discriminating and destroying it. Giving it a name, like Zen, or Ch’an, or Jhanna, that’s already enough. It doesn’t have to be American or something like that. It just is.

[@aurora3655]

Spiritually is not zen.

[@Wingedmagician]

what?

[@howiewhitehouse1202]

Zen named is not Zen ! Be here now & Zen !!

[@aurora3655]

@@Wingedmagician no. nor is there any Buddha in Amitabha’s PureLand.

[@missh1774]

Non dual?