Zack Snyder's Visual Fallacy: 300 to Rebel Moon

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Director Zack Snyder is a controversial figure in the world of cinema. Why is that? And does his obsession with visuals get in the way of his storytelling and critical scores? Join us as we dive into the visual style of Zack Snyder from 300 to Rebel Moon.
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0:00 Zack Snyder, Kathleen Kennedy, and Star Wars
1:50 Rated "R" Star Wars
2:26 Rebel Moon and the Legend of Zack Snyder
3:35 300, Zack Snyder's Visual Style and Critics
7:52 Sucker Punch to Army of the Dead
8:17 Netflix wants more Zack Snyder
9:50 Production of Rebel Moon
12:03 Critical bashing of Rebel Moon
13:00 Zack Snyder's Visual Fallacy or Genius?
14:54 Zack Snyder is neither good nor bad
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#rebelmoon #zacksnyder #FrameVoyager

[@FrameVoyager]

What did you think of Rebel Moon?

[@BradleyLayton7]

It was ok. The ultra slow motion sequences killed the pacing/tension for me. I loved Andor and the way it tells its stories. Rebel Moon felt like a rushed Marvel version of Andor

[@rw3452]

So bad. Some great frames visually. Had high hopes but story, acting and overall delivery just didn’t seem to work.

[@FrameVoyager]

@@BradleyLayton7 I kind of wonder what the directors cut will be like. Will it fix the pacing? Kind of sad tbh, was looking forward to this film. Hoping the second part maybe fixes things? Otherwise, waiting for Dune 2 lol

[@FrameVoyager]

@@rw3452 I think in general you can always expect a visual experience with his films. I just think sometimes that gets in the way. It also just might not be my thing

[@LuisSierra42]

@@FrameVoyager His director cuts are usually the real movie, so i'll be waiting for it

[@BraxtonHoward]

"He's good at what he does", impressing executives in meetings.

[@FrameVoyager]

I bet he's an amazing pitch guy 😂

[@yan008]

What does he do then?

[@dignerds]

Then WB butchers his movies with last min major interferance and haters online blame Snyders storytelling..

[@maplebob23]

Slow motion and pained looks are art. Who doesn’t want four and a half hours of art in capes? -Zack Snyder

[@FrameVoyager]

💀💀💀 I was seriously confused with some of the slow motion placements. Some of them were quite jarring

[@YahbiiCot]

If Zack Snyder put as much effort into his stories and characters as he does his visual style, the dude would be unstoppable. He desperately needs a writing partner whose sole purpose is to flesh out his characters/story ideas. Every film he directs and has a writing credit for (300 doesn't count) has poor characters and stories.

[@K.C-2049]

and like honestly his story conceits aren't necessarily fundamentally bad, he just doesn't know how to concisely tell a story without needing 4-5 hour extended cuts. the whole Martha thing isn't fundamentally a horrible idea (symbolic of Batman seeing the humanity in Superman), I think it was just poorly delivered and developed.

[@simonbright2975]

Even 300 suffers from a massive amount of watering down, compared to the source material. It's a gloriously violent spectacle you can get immersed in though.

[@kafukwamekemeh]

@@K.C-2049 Snyder is literally good the best at Visual storytelling in Snyder's version of Justice League, by: Cyborg's whole story, especially helping out the struggling single mother and declaring "I"m not broken, and I'm not alone" before defeating the mother boxes; Flash's whole story, especially when the Justice League actually lost their final battle and Flash had to turn back time to save the world, Batman's guilt, Superman's rebirth, the stakes for Wonder Woman after we saw the extended scenes of Steppenwolf's defeat of Themysira ("Show him your fear!" -- "We have no fear!"). Or maybe people really thought the 2017 theatrical cut was better storytelling? ("What is brunch?" Give me a break.)

[@kafukwamekemeh]

You say this and movies are still talked about today. Christopher Nolan even said Watchmen was ahead of his time He didn't even write his dc movies but only directed them, stop making stuff up for no other reason

[@YahbiiCot]

​@@kafukwamekemeh I think you misread my comment, but for the sake of the convo, I'll reword it just for you: I think the films he directed AND has a writing credit for (Sucker Punch, Rebel Moon, and Army of the Dead) are not as good as the films that people wrote for him (Dawn of the Dead, Watchmen, MoS, BvS, and JL).

[@RobVespa]

I don't think anyone hates his style. People don't like bad writing. That's universal. Don't let Snyder touch screenplays. Have talented competent writers write vetted and polished screenplays. Snyder can then direct it... but have others, again talented and competent, to watch the... watchman, and empowered to say, "no." "Confounding storytelling" is a euphemism for bad writing. The end. It is NOT because critics have a bias against Snyder. It's because the stories are bad. This isn't complicated. The projects shouldn't have been greenlit - like so many others. If the word isn't golden, don't move forward. *Content is king.*

[@FrameVoyager]

Agreed! His style is recognizable immediately. But for me the video was setting up his style and love of really digging into that, then questioning if that was enough alone. But yeah directing he's great but probably should work with some screenwriters

[@antona.1327]

People, like critics, do have a bias against his style. That's one of his most criticized aspects as a filmmaker. Those slowmo jokes didn't write themselves. Critics always have to have some "witty" remark about Snyder's love of grimdark aesthetic, bombastic action, masculine tropes, etc. And this thing about Snyder's writing always baffled me... He has no sole screenwriting credits. Most of his movies are written by other writers. So we have no proof of concept for what a true Snyder-written story is.

[@ditroxx]

Like his first movie, written by no other than James Gunn, the guy that can make a movie have heart with charismatic characters and actual developments arcs. I would say Snyder has the edge on visuals, but Gunn overall is the whole package, at the end he do delivers and not this bittersweet taste of good visuals, but damn that script and those characters and their chemistry, is just not there.

[@maxjohnson6502]

​@@antona.1327 Didn't Snyder write the first Wonder Woman movie?

[@martinwinter615]

​@@maxjohnson6502 No he didn't he is a part but to get that it is enough to put in a small part. Like it plays in 1 WW znd Diana is first on the Amazon island... Not much needed to get that

[@martinwinter615]

Snyder is for me like a guy that read a story and in this story there are moments where a characterdevelopment or a storyarch reach their peak and are wonderful described and he wants to recreate such moment. Forgetting completelly that to make this moment meaningfull all the develooment of the story before was needed. He thinks the moment itself would be enough.

[@kafukwamekemeh]

In Snyder's version of Justice League, by: Cyborg's whole story, especially helping out the struggling single mother and declaring "I"m not broken, and I'm not alone" before defeating the mother boxes; Flash's whole story, especially when the Justice League actually lost their final battle and Flash had to turn back time to save the world, Batman's guilt, Superman's rebirth, the stakes for Wonder Woman after we saw the extended scenes of Steppenwolf's defeat of Themysira ("Show him your fear!" -- "We have no fear!"). Or maybe people really thought the 2017 theatrical cut was better storytelling? ("What is brunch?" Give me a break.) Maybe people prefer Rebel Moon's closest analogs, the recent movies from Marvel and DC? Are those the standards? And now people are picking apart what is supposed to be just a hybrid western/space opera in the Star Wars mold -- which, if you remember the first Star Wars movie (episode 4) had almost no back story for some of the most broad strokes characters, and some of the most abbreviated world building, of all time, yet it's absolutely a classic. Has Rebel Moon held itself out as anything more? And, by the way, there's a whole second half of the movie coming in April in which I assume will we see all the pay offs for what has only thus far been set up.

[@martinwinter615]

@@kafukwamekemeh You can try to defend him whatever you want and when people write for him the screenplay yeah he can produce moments. But hey if he works for himself and has not a person on his side. Trash comes out like Rebel Moon, Sucker Punch and Army of the Dead. He is good when he can copy stuff 300, Watchmen. But he himself is not a good writer and storyteller. Your examples are team work.

[@kafukwamekemeh]

@@martinwinter615 You thought you said something right?

[@martinwinter615]

@@kafukwamekemeh I said facts. When Snyder is in full control - he can't tell a story for the life of it. Style over substance. You might be ok with nice pictures - well not even that he can do when he does not have the help of Larry Fong as in Watchman and 300 his visuals look blurry and washed out as in Army of the Dead and now in Rebel Moon. Snyder can't write and he is not even that good of a cinematograph - he is good at compositions of the shots. That's about it. He could be the most successful director if he would get his ego under check - getting someone for the crispness in cinematography and good writers and he would be successful not only for his niche fanbase.

[@kafukwamekemeh]

@@martinwinter615 Oh wow his niche fanbase, and why are his movies so talked about and why does he has the largest fanbase who helped release his director's cut of Justice league If you are willing to call Snyder a inept filmmaker who knows about making a movie while you just consume any garbage or mediocore superhero movie out there, then you are a hypocrite. You seem to act as if Snyder bullied you when you were in high school or whatever

[@cameragod1]

So Rebel Moon is basically a remake of Battle Beyond the Stars... bold move by Zack to put his work up against Roger Corman... and somehow lose 🙂

[@FrameVoyager]

😂😂😂

[@spiderjeranimo4992]

"Roger Corman was able to make that in a cave, with a box of scraps!" - Snyder

[@Mario_Angel_Medina]

I've said multiple times that is amazing how a couple of small differences make _Battle Beyond the Stars_ a much better written movie than _Rebel Moon,_ basic stuff like having the "7 samurais" be spaceship pilots (you know, to fight the villain's planet-destroying spaceship) or making the village under siege the only human settlement on the planet (so the main characters don't come out as dicks for endangering the other cities on the planet that have nothing to do with their struggle with their actions)

[@OldManTheseDays]

Personal story about Zack Snyder and the kind of guy he is: When I was at Art Center College of Design (Zack’s alma-mater), he put on an advance screening of 300 for students at the school in a cinema in Pasadena. After the film, he stayed and answered questions. He was totally cool and nice to all the students, even giving thoughtful responses to some of the more… naive questions. After the Q&A, I went up to him and told him how much I enjoyed the movie. He shook my hand, said he really appreciated it, and we ended up chatting for awhile. He’s a cool guy, super genuine and really interesting. I like him, I like his work.

[@whiteshadow0122]

He does seem like a genuine person that is really passionate about his work. He does have some GREAT ideas and is very known for a reason. But great ideas by themselves just isn't enough, you need a good writer to really develop those ideias and write them down in a concise way, which involves a completly different skill. Character and dialogue writing is HARD as hell and it just isn't his strongest suit. There are tons of "ugly" films that are beloved simply because of good screenwriting. But there are even more films that are gorgeous with great ideias that end up falling on its face because of bad writing.

[@elijahalbiston]

He seems like a nice guy who unfortunately got too much success with movies too fast

[@jocedeg]

Being cool doesn't excuse his lack of talent: it only makes it all the more sadder. At least Michael Bay is an asshole: make it easier to hate him.

[@dignerds]

I like his work to. And so do the general audience. And I hate that WB butchers many of his movies, messing up the story with studio interfereance last minute.

[@sfdko3291]

Movies are like food. Most people care more about the taste than they do the appearance. But...if you present something as high quality and charge money like it's high quality...but it ends up tasting mid? People are going to dislike it. If you're going to bake a cake, I'd rather it taste good than look good. Snyder is really good at making food LOOK good.

[@fatih.tavukcu]

I wish the movies he wrote were mid. Suckerpunch is one of the worst movies I ever had to experience and the writing could have been easily by Uwe Boll. And this comes from someone who REALLY liked Watchmen! I mean all the stupid or illogical changes compared to the graphic novel (which I only read afterwards) were by Synder, but he also added the really great, new ending!

[@FirstNameLastName-rs6qo]

Ove said this from day one when 300 came out. This guy shouldn't touch a script. His characters have as much depth as a Blippi cartoon, his dialog is as good as a Hallmark movie, & when he inserts philosophical ideas they're about as nuanced as a sledge hammer. The only thing that keeps his name in the business is the visual elements in his movies.

[@MagnitudeReviews]

If Snyder wanted to create a wholly original property, then they shouldn’t basically make a Star Wars and Seven Samurai film under a different name.

[@FrameVoyager]

Really fair point. Honestly, if they didn't mention star wars and seven samurai so much I wonder how we'd look at it differently.

[@MagnitudeReviews]

@@FrameVoyager even if Snyder didn’t spell it out in interviews. The visual look of the film is undeniable. They literally use lightsabers. Same with story. It’s seven samurai’s story except worse. Granted recycling the seven samurai story is nothing new, it’s been done countless times before. None of them have recaptured the magic of the original film. Rebel Moon is no different.

[@kafukwamekemeh]

how is the film worse? the main thing is complaining that they should spoon feed character development in the first movie when the second movie accomplishes that@@MagnitudeReviews

[@jocedeg]

@@FrameVoyager You mean we wouldn't notice the lightsabers ?

[@FrameVoyager]

@@jocedeg haha true!

[@alexcool879]

There should be no Part 1 and 2, but a full 3 hour movie.

[@FrameVoyager]

He actually wanted to do that but Netflix was concerned about the length so they split it into 2

[@weplayatnight3913]

​@FrameVoyager no it was his idea. You youtubers need to do your research

[@FrameVoyager]

@@weplayatnight3913 lol ok man. It was not in snyders original plans to do that, Netflix was concerned about the length of the script and Snyder and Netflix decided to make it into 2 parts instead of cut down the length. I offer research we did below. But it was never in the original plan for the script. Go do "your" research next time. deadline.com/2023/06/rebel-moon-a-two-part-film-says-zack-snyder-two-cuts-to-be-released-per-part-1235409564/ If you'd like to see our research database you can find that here as well publish.obsidian.md/framevoyagerdatabase/000.+Navigation/000.+Frame+Voyager+Database+INDEX

[@doc8013]

​@@FrameVoyagerin fairness, though, it came down to Snyder. Netflix could offer what they may have wanted but in the end this was Snyder's baby and they were gonna let him run wild with it. He just happened to oblige their "wants".

[@pdzombie1906]

The fact Snyder has such a large fanbase allowing him to keep making movies, but not big enough to be a big box office success (proven in the DCEU) is baffling to me... I'd like to say the emperor is naked, but the critics already sound, as one of them put it, like a broken record...

[@barelyoperational6587]

Snyders fan base skews young, male and chronically online. It’s not surprising that his online reputation gets artificially bolster by the stans. That’s why when you get off the internet and look at real life measurements like box office numbers, the hype falls short

[@Darkknight20026]

Both his dc movies made profit.

[@ICHBinCOOLERalsJeman]

Imagine pitching a movie so bad, kathleen kenedy passed on it

[@FrameVoyager]

💀💀💀

[@Darkknight20026]

And you get acolyte which is far worse

[@RM_VFX]

"I just wanted to do my own thing, on the side." Then get funding to do your own thing, on the side. But, weird how "your own thing" is super derivative of someone else's thing. 🤔

[@hasielsarsby5558]

You know what Snyder should make? A biblical film, with so much religious allegories in his films, I would love to see him pull out a story from the bible. A tale not yet seen in a film, Tower of Babel, the maccabees, the fall of Jericho , David and Goliath, Gideon and the 300 men? I am sure he could set the bar high for that type of genre.

[@FrameVoyager]

A film of Jericho from the perspective of Jericho would be interesting 🤔

[@chasx7062]

Redo Homer's the Iliads and the Odessy??

[@czarcoma]

When i first saw 300 i was like WOW! After watching a few more Snyders until Rebel Moon, my eyes were like my tongue after too much sweets.

[@FrameVoyager]

Honestly some of the slow mo shots didn't really make a lot of sense in the edits. It ended up being pretty jarring at times. I really like his visual ideas, but I think he just doesn't stash them away for impactful scenes of special moments and because they are littered everywhere across the film they lose their impact from oversaturation.

[@czarcoma]

@@FrameVoyager agree... too much slomo, as if trying to extend the runtime. Some of slomo would have looked cooler run in normal. I re-watched Man of Steel recently and dont remember any slo-mos. Granted, Kryptonians were supposed to be moving at super speed, i still would have prefered action sequences in Rebel moon to feel more hard hitting with real time and show case how badass the characters were.

[@duncanweller1]

I was excited to see Rebel Moon. When it came out, as I usually do, I watch a film while I draw. If the film is good, I'll stop drawing to watch the film and pay more attention. I paid attention during the slo-mo action scenes of Rebel Moon. They were cool. Half an hour into the film I got up to get a cup of coffee. I sat back down to draw and after another half an hour I realized that I had completely forgotten that I had Rebel Moon on pause. I wasn't gripped at all by the film. I know the story of the Seven Samurai and the Magnificent Seven. Both films are magnificent. This was not. It was a rehash of everything I'd seen and known before in sci-fi. The story and pacing and characters were all flat. Sorry. Great visuals, but... that's it.

[@FrameVoyager]

The pacing was bizarre. Like you had almost no time to even connect with the main character before the bad guys showed up. And a lot of her lines were pretty boring and generic. They really should have started this story somewhere else then they did. Like give the main characters full backstory at the beginning, which was probably like the only interesting part of the film but also almost a rip off of Thanos and Gamora if I'm being honest. But at least that point we have a character to sympathize with.

[@duncanweller1]

@@FrameVoyager very good points, especially about having the back story first. That would have worked!

[@FrameVoyager]

@@duncanweller1 It wouldn't have even taken that long either. But at least I could have cared about her character and the place she ended up. But I had no reason to care about anyone at the beginning for so long by the time they get to that backstory it's not even interesting. You missed all of that emotional impact of her ptsd essentially of remembering her childhood because you didn't know about it for so long. So her emotional moment standing up to those soldiers in the beginning doesn't have the emotional impact it could because you don't know it's like the first time she's been able to stand up to them since her homeworld was destroyed.

[@MauricioPlaza]

Im still trying to remember a cool slo mo scene in this movie. There were so much unnecessary slow motion.

[@Whaddayamean13]

Yeah, the issue is that it’s neither fun or charming enough to be a 2 hour, family friendly adventure sci fi, but it’s also not hard and grimy enough to be a cool gripping subversion of Star Wars. Which is why it was stupid to do some PG-13 version. His aesthetic is not tailored to that and should’ve just done that

[@orboakin8074]

Snyder is good at visuals, special effects, adapting the works of others and dark toned settings but he is terrible at writing scripts, original creations, characterization, plot development, pacing, and making a standard-length movie. He needs overseers.

[@deadeyedmillennialmedia]

VFX crew: “Please don’t make us do this” ZS: “I am auteur, destroyer of worlds.”

[@Mario_Angel_Medina]

We can't know for sure, but it could be that Zack Snyder didn't understood why the "style-over-substance" of 300 worked. Frank Miller took a very simple story and used it as the backbone of an experiment in hyper-stylization. The problem with a lot of Snyder's movies is that they needed the style to take a backseat so the substance could reach the audience but Snyder will not allow it and he doesn't seem to be interested in methods to "tell by showing" that would combine style and substance in a fullfilling way (that's why "Man of Steel" feels downright generic compared to "Batman v Superman" or the Snyder Cut of "Justice League", in the former the director focused on telling an story over making every frame a literal painting)

[@maynardwayward12]

Some directors just get worse with the more freedom they get. No one is over their shoulder telling them what their worst ideas are.

[@godzillarules9322]

I agree with this analysis, and I think that one of the reasons 300 worked as well, is the story is narrated so that takes care of most of the storytelling and then the visuals add depth to the story. Since then his movies have struggled with storytelling and character development. Netflix is a good place for something like this, because a lot of people when watching movies at home, continue to use and look at their phones, so they don't really want anything in-depth that they have to concentrate on, so beautiful visuals are enough for them. On the flip side of that though, because there is so much content without substance, it does make people who want fully fleshed-out stories and characters desperate to find the handful of movies in a year that delivers.

[@FrameVoyager]

I'm not even sure it's always about fleshed out characters and tons of character development, it's just giving us a reason to care about the character in the first place. Rebel Moon so far has barely given us a reason to care about any of the characters. It was a whole 5 minutes of getting to know the local setting and the people in danger before the villains showed up.

[@godzillarules9322]

@@FrameVoyager I don't disagree with you. I would mention it does not take a ton of screen time to develop a character, and they don't have to be a primary character. Yondu in Guardians of the Galaxy was not even an actual Guardian but when he died there were plenty of tears in the theater. We need to be able to identify or at least sympathize with them to care about them.

[@FrameVoyager]

@@godzillarules9322 Absolutely! I like to point to the Star Wars visions where they got different japanese and korean anime studios to make short star wars anime episodes. In those 20 minutes episodes (not all of them of course) they are so good at getting you to connect with the characters in such a short amount of time and actually care about the outcome. So totally agree, it doesn't take long. That's why I would have started with the main characters backstory first. That's the most intruiging element. Literally could take 5 minutes to tell that and show her eventually ending up at that farming village.

[@murciadoxial8056]

step one, lock zack snyder out of the writer's room there, i fixed his entire career going forward

[@spacepiratecaptainrush1237]

thing about Rebel Moon that no one has mentioned, it was already done in Battle Beyond the Stars.

[@jamiedetwiler7261]

There’s an alternate timeline where Snyder didn’t let his importance as a director go to his head. Where he didn’t feel like he had to make a shot-for-shot version that’s so faithful to the comic visually that he forgot what made Watchmen unique. I feel like Watchmen really is when he let the ego take over.

[@doc8013]

I think it was after MoS actually. You watch that movie and he is so reigned in as a filmmaker. It's the least Snyder-y movie Snyder has ever made. After that, for some reason, he went full Snyder and never looked back.

[@adityanarain9428]

​@@doc8013BvS is still thoroughly underappreciated. It's not a traditional superhero movie and if you don't come in with those expectations it's even better than TDK.

[@doc8013]

@@adityanarain9428 nah man, it's not remotely close to being in the same ballpark as TDK. It's pretty much appreciated the right amount. A cool looking movie with a ridiculous plot, horrible bad guy, bad casting, and insulting characterization.

[@adityanarain9428]

@@doc8013 I'm assuming you're referring to the Ultimate Edition, regardless my opinion still stands. Batman going full Punisher had to do with his complete loss of faith with humanity. Besides Dick (who got killed) and Alfred, Bruce doesn't interact with anyone else frequently, making it hard for him to connect with others. This makes him isolate from society and his perception of the world is solely based on his observations and no one else's, and from those observations he concluded this: His dialogue "20 years in Gotham Alfred...how many good people were there (Dick, Catwoman etc.), how many stayed that way (Two-face, Mad Hatter etc.)" That dialogue showed he completely lost his humanity. He was pretty much a civility obsessed Terminator. Only from saving Martha, did he find his humanity again. As for superman, his characterisation is accurate to how the real world would react. A misunderstood God who spreads fear and terror alike. The symbolism in the movie is top notch too.

[@Whaddayamean13]

Nah, Snyder actually got Watchmen more than most directors would have. He understood that the film should confront the audience, actually satirizing genre, not holding their hand and telling them it’s doing so. That whole movie is an exaggeration of the typical superhero movie experience. That’s the point.

[@brandonmclendon5368]

Zack Snyder seems like a really nice person, and his visual style is very unique and interesting. However, he should have a writer or someone who could polish his ideas.

[@Darkseidsolosfiction]

Netflix wanted it's own Snydercut and it was pretty dumb. They should have released the original version

[@khymaaren]

My main issue with the film is that I didn't care about practically any of the characters and that is, indeed, due to the storytelling and pacing. With so many characters to establish, this Part One could have easily been a two-parter, in and of itself...

[@Darkseidsolosfiction]

Kora was a good character tho

[@measuretwice69]

I really don't understand the complaint the his storytelling is weak. Compared to what other visionary director, pray tell? Maybe I'm the only one who was moved, in Snyder's version of Justice League, by: Cyborg's whole story, especially helping out the struggling single mother and declaring "I"m not broken, and I'm not alone" before defeating the mother boxes; Flash's whole story, especially when the Justice League actually lost their final battle and Flash had to turn back time to save the world; Batman's guilt; Superman's rebirth; the stakes for Wonder Woman after we saw the extended scenes of Steppenwolf's defeat of Themysira ("Show him your fear!" -- "We have no fear!"). Or maybe people really thought the 2017 theatrical cut was better storytelling? ("What is brunch?" Give me a break.) Maybe people prefer Rebel Moon's closest analogs, the recent movies from Marvel and DC? Are those the standards? And now people are picking apart what is supposed to be just a hybrid western/space opera in the Star Wars mold -- if you remember, the first Star Wars movie (episode 4) had almost no back story for some of the most broad strokes characters, and some of the most abbreviated world building, of all time, yet it's absolutely a classic. Has Rebel Moon held itself out as anything more? And, by the way, there's a whole second half of the movie coming in April in which I assume we will see all the pay offs for what has only thus far been set up. #rebelmoon

[@thedeep2202]

Finally someone I agree with. Perfectly said 👏 I always feel moved when I watch a Snyder film and also don’t forget about the directors cut, Zack Snyder is the king of directors cuts, it’s going to be awesome

[@AllThingsFilm1]

Your comparison of Rebel Moon to Star Wars was a joke. Star Wars is far superior on every level compared to Rebel Snooze. Part 1 of RM was trash. I don't see how he can possibly save the story with a Part 2.

[@FrameVoyager]

I kept it pretty light in regards to looking into it and actually most critics and audiences thought that his version of Justice League was good. Star Wars, while I do love it, is probably one of the more overrated first entries. I think that movie like I talked about in much of this video benefited from some of the same things. It was new, no one had really done something like that before, the lightsaber, the inventive visual effects, etc. really helped to sell that series initially. But by the time you get to the 2000's, you notice that the visuals and allure of it all start to dampen. That's the issue with Rebel Moon imo, it's fine to want to just be a visual spectacle but the bar is so incredibly high at this point that it takes a lot to impress audiences with just that and it pulls so much from other genre's. It has its own version of a lightsaber, it has the Thanos/Gamorra storyline with the main character, Seven Samurai/Magnificent Seven/The Three Amigos beginning, a Harry Potter looking hippogriff. But really despite all of that, it really could have been a great series. We are all influenced all of the time by things we watch, read, etc. and there being parts of this film that are derivative are not really a problem, the main problem is just doesn't do enough to establish itself as something unique. I'm hopeful for the second part and the directors cut, but so far there is little given for us to really care about any of the characters or bond with them.

[@linuxhub70]

@@FrameVoyager Let's revisit this comment in August when the directors cut of Rebel Moon is released. His true vision of Rebel Moon. Netflix told him to make the released versions with the plan to have his true version released under a directors cut title. It was agreed upon by both parties so in this case the Snyder Cut is intentional. It is a win win for both Netflix And Snyder. As far as story telling goes, Its all subjective and can go either way depending on how the wolves are feeding. You either like it or you don't. But the "numbers" don't lie. No matter how the spin doctors try to pocket Snyder. He breaks them and keeps winning. It's like a snake eating it's own tail.

[@FrameVoyager]

​@@linuxhub70 I think it's a dumb strategy and it makes the current films feel half-baked. There are plenty of people I know that won't even give it a chance again after the first film. Like make a good movie first and then expand it. Sure story is subjective, but when you consistently get low critics scores and low scores from audiences who don't know who Zack Snyder is, that should tell you something. But I don't know what you mean by the "numbers" don't lie. The streaming numbers for this second film are not great. I highly doubt Netflix greenlights this series to continue on.

[@arav13]

Imagine a scifi movie written by Denis Villenue, fight choreography by russo brothers, and zack snyder taking care of storyboards and vfx prodcution

[@jocedeg]

This guy can't add anything good to a Villeneuve movie. Nobody needs to see Paul riding a sandwork in slowmo.

[@NineVoltDigitalCinema]

Loved the visuals of 'Rebel Moon', but the screenplay seemed like first draft Chat GPT.

[@papkebe8329]

He needs a partner to make a similar to Lucas / Spielberg duo. Someone very philosophical in the best sense of the word

[@FrameVoyager]

Yeahhhh, probably just someone to help with character development and confining some of his visual ideas to key moments. I think he has a great eye for those visuals but like with the slow motion element it's just used so much that it loses its impact really quickly.

[@ViceRidden]

Spielberg is know as an idea guy. He does what most smart people do, he hires even smarter people to pick up the slack. Snyder is an atrocious writer. He's fucking awful and someone needs to tell him too his face. Hire actually writers to flush out your ideas chud. Or maybe just do the bare fucking minimum and take a writing class, guy. I can't be nice about this. Dude has been giving every opportunity to improve and literally billions of dollars to do so. There is no excuse for him to be this ass at his job at his age with his resources. Like seriously, does the dude even have an editor? How does this shit even make it into production?

[@SahilSahoo-sw2hy]

Chriss terrio would be perfect

[@jocedeg]

Pair him with a good storyteller, then remove him from the partnership and nobody would notice. Anybody can do slow motion, freeze frames, lens flares and cool camera moves. The difficulty is knowing WHEN IT'S NEEDED ! Snyder just needs to stop making movies. Anyway, with streamers losing so much money, it won't be long before Netflix realizes that wasting hundreds of millions on Snyder's crappy movies is a bad idea.

[@WhipahSnapah]

He seems like a genuine person and overall good dude. I always feel bad for the guy when he gets dunked on. Im not really sure what the thought process was behind Netflix releasing this shorter version but the characters suffered tremendously. His directors cuts are legendary, I don’t understand why Netflix would undermine their own product the way they did with this version.

[@FrameVoyager]

Totally agree. Not trying to dunk on him here, more of an examination. But I agree critics can be pretty harsh on him.

[@K.C-2049]

this is really the biggest problem with Snyder though. his extended cuts are fine, but when you watch a director like David Fincher and you really think about the work each scene is doing, you realize how dang good he is at efficiency in storytelling. it's not necessarily about the quality of the storytelling, but how efficiently you can impart it to the audience. bonus points if you can construct a scene which gains meaning on re watching like a Denis Villeneuve. in my opinion Christopher Nolan suffers from this too, where his films have fantastic ideas but often times drag in exposition and the characters simply describing their emotional state. (which, to be fair, might have more to do with the laziness of your average theatre going audience, many of whom don't like having to work very hard to figure out what's going on.)

[@hfztt]

The problem is the current polarity, espacially in the US. You cannot really say that it was mid. You have to either love or hate things. But IMHO the truth is that it wasn't bad, it wan't good. It was just inoffencively mid. And, personlly I do not fiond his directors cuts improve on that. They just fix some issues to produce new ones. He should really switch the the tv series format. His kind of storytelling is more suited for that I suspect. Part of the art of the cinema movie is to keep things just long enough to get teh details, but short enough to not overstay you well come. He always only manage one of the two.

[@orboakin8074]

Good dude?! He called a bunch of his fans, who helped him raise charity money in honor of his deceased daughter, racists to their faces on a live stream! He can go to hell!

[@MarkFilipAnthony]

​@@K.C-2049that's the whole point of snyders directors cuts. They overall tell the story, not because they're longer, but because a lot of the storytelling is actually cut out. In most of his directors cuts u see thar he actually tell stories efficiently

[@tonimashdane33498]

wish I loved snyder as much as his most die-hard fans and i hated him as much as his die-hard haters. i just mainly find his movies boring and cold. maybe it’s because i’ve always been a sam mendes/denis villeneuve girl.

[@FrameVoyager]

Same 😂 love Denis Villeneuve

[@thedeep2202]

@@tonimashdane33498go watch Barbie. Snyder’s the GOAT

[@thedeep2202]

@@tonimashdane33498Snyder makes movies for men, not sissies

[@SahilSahoo-sw2hy]

​@@tonimashdane33498Snyder is living his dream lol he's doing everything he loves

[@jocedeg]

@@thedeep2202 GOAT: Greatest Overall At Travesty

[@kahleeb624]

I will never stop being sad that DISNEY of all companies were the ones who got Star Wars. As soon as I heard Disney I knew that any hopes of a mature R rated Star Wars wouod never happen and everything would be for toys and kids and what a surprise.. that's EXACTLY what's happened just worse as almost none of Disney's Star Wars has been good except Andor which the second season definitly will not be as good. Disney has ruined Star Wars with their obsession with "kid first" bland stories with no stakes or real drama where the good guys literally can't lose and no one dies and everyone is always perfect. Star wars could have truly become something amazing if it had matured as its audience has and should have STOPPED making everything for kids. The Star Wars universe and lore is teaming with dark themes of horror and death, has billions of possibilities for drama and adult themes and could have been an amazing base for countless of director's and writers to add too. But instead we got Kathleen Kennedy who has canceled every winning idea and green lit all the worst ever content and Dave Filoni who keeps forcing himself as the lead writer when he absolutely SUCKS at writing. Star wars is sadly dead for anyone that isn't under 10 with brain cells cause Disney doesn't care about anything except money and kids and toys make money. So instead of the millions of possible R rated more mature stories that themes that could have made Star Wars even bigger than marvel we get nothing but childish crap that no one likes at all.

[@nikytamayo]

Robert Rodriguez and Guillermo del Toro are proof that you can have a striking visual style while still satisfying the storytelling expectations of more discerning critics and viewers. I appreciate Snyder's style, but as a visual person, he doesn't have an eye or an ear for compelling dialogue or personality. Also, the audience score keeps dropping as more people see the film, but it will never go below 50%. Because it is a gorgeous film to look at, even if it doesn't hold up when you actually pay attention to the story.

[@KafuKemeh]

Like George Lucas?

[@nikytamayo]

@@KafuKemeh yeah, George's character work is really spotty unless he has a good scriptwriter and great actors backing him up. But at least his sense of pacing and movement are grand.

[@henrycase3788]

"with the lack of truly original sci-fi films and so much regurgitation in the science fiction niche over the last decade" Hm? What are these example you speak of? The implication here is that there has been a lack of originality or innovation in science fiction films for the past 10 years. I wholeheartedly disagree. Possessor, Ex Machina, Annihilation, After Yang, Arrival, Interstellar, Snowpiercer, The Martian, Crimes of the Future, Upgrade and Everything Everywhere All at Once. These are good Sci-Fi films released between 2013 to 2023 that are original scripts and/or aren't sequels. One of them even going as far as winning Best Picture. So I do not understand where this preconcieved notion of sci-fi cinema lacking any originality is stemming from. I personally find it funny that this is the perception you stated and then saying how Rebel Moon (before its release) might be a breath of fresh air when right from its first promo reveal, all I had seen was the same trope we have seen in many Space Opera movies: Galactic Empires and rebellions - established by works like Dune & Foundation in the 50s/60s, and popularised by Star Wars. Its costume and set designs decked in a similar worn-out space western much like the first Star Wars trilogy sprinkled with an aesthetic flair of Warhammer 40K and Dieselpunk. There was no breath of fresh air from what I had seen months prior.

[@FrameVoyager]

Fair points! I probably should have worded that better because I was thinking more in terms of sci fi franchises and not necessarily one off films. All of those films are amazing. And if I'm being honest, most sci Fi series are taking the place of films nowadays like the foundation. So appreaciate that, should have worded that differently

[@cjkalandek996]

To me, Zack Snyder is a superior version of Michael Bay. Because while they do share some similarities, the biggest difference is Snyder is passionate and honest about what he makes (to an extent). And even if his movie doesn't turn out well due to his passion being misplaced or being muddled by studio interference, that passion is still there. Unlike Michael Bay, whose passion only lies in indulging his obsession with making shit blow up. Also, from what I've heard (I could wrong on this), Snyder is one of the few filmmakers today who treats his VFX artists with some form of respect. Unlike Bay, who many people have likened him to a fascist.

[@FrameVoyager]

Yeah I'd agree with you there. I've never been a big Michael Bay fan haha. Though I admit I'm very much a cerebral kind of movie guy. I like films that are complicated and philosophical, probably why I like sci Fi. But yeah, no hate from me towards Snyder.

[@Scarlett_Azure]

But Technically Michael Bay is superior

[@user-dm2nx4yu5o]

@@FrameVoyagerthey actually were in the same college and only a few years apart, so it’s interesting when people make comparisons of them But tbh, I really dislike comparing any artist to each other, it’s art, no matter if someone is ‘better’ or ‘worse’ I’m happy when I’m seeing the creators mind on screen I wish more people just thought of any art form from the creators pov rather than their own, especially when they dislike it

[@FrameVoyager]

@@user-dm2nx4yu5o yeah I thought that was interesting they were classmates. But I don't like hate Michael Bay, I just really don't like his films. They also are not really in my preferred genre too so probably have some bias in that. But I agree. Me saying I don't like something or I feel a director is better is just based on my preference. One of my close friends LOVES Michael Bay and I'm happy for him 😂 Though for this video I did try to do a dive into the creators pov of his art and how he likes to approach it.

[@djdedan]

Superior? i think you got that inverted.

[@Scott__C]

He's good at what he does could describe anyone who's questionable at their job.

[@jocedeg]

Yeah like a guy who's really good at rapidly filling a bucket with his diarrhea: he's really good at what he does. But what he does is just shitting.

[@MeAtrapasteEsCine]

Man, how you do that tv retro effect? its awesome, I love how you edit this video and the storytelling. Truly awesome, from a KZbinr to another, you really rock it, congrats 👏

[@FrameVoyager]

Appreciate it! And it's actually a practical effect 😉 bought a bunch of CRT TV's and run the files through and record them through OBS with an FX30

[@MeAtrapasteEsCine]

@@FrameVoyager wow, great idea, keep going!

[@FrameVoyager]

@@MeAtrapasteEsCine thanks! Plan on doing a lot with them in the future

[@80lemon80]

All these comments are like “i dont think anyone has any issue with his visual style, it’s just his writing”. I do. His directing sucks too. No reason to pretend he’s good at one thing just because he sucks at the other thing. His visual style is non existent. Gratuitous slow mo, and washed out colors isn’t a creative choice it’s a visually unappealing crutch. The guy is just not talented through and through.

[@jamesnave1249]

I would kinda love to see Zac Snyder and Peter Jackson work together... It would be interesting

[@hermitcard4494]

People hyped on the Sneider cut because Justice League deserved better than we got. We got the Sneider cut, and indeed was better, but it wasn't good enough, and its universe(previous movies) was already premature and broken. Just let Zack direct visuals(with control), make him work with a team and good writers. I hope he learns his lessons and grow up as a film maker or director or producer on Rebel Moon part 2.

[@NBATESdgm]

Zack Snyder has been 17 now for 40 years, he talks, conveys ideas, and expresses his vision like a 17 year old would. I would hate to be in one of his pitches for movies, "BOOM CRASH, And then he went like POOOWWW and the car was coming at him like NYEEEEEAAAR..."

[@AllThingsFilm1]

Rebel Moon was trash. Comments saying that Zack Snyder seems like a nice guy are completely irrelevant to the quality of his films. Visuals, no matter how cool, are pointless unless they support a good story. I didn't care about any of the characters. The story was insanely simplistic. A girl innocently farming all by herself on an alien world. Bad guy shows up in a uniform obviously inspired by the Nazis. Time to gather up a rag tag group of people who join a suicide mission without hesitation. The rest of the story is as predictable as it gets. I can't imagine how Part 2 will salvage the story.

[@FrameVoyager]

It's kind of sad too. I feel like the universe itself is interesting enough and you're always going to have derivatives in sci-fi, but really nothing really set it apart or made it special. I wish they put the main characters backstory at the beginning and started with that leading up to her finding that remote village and being taken in. That would have added way more emotional impact for that first fight scene and the distress she is in seeing those ships come in. (Granted this is literally the Thanos/Gamorra story) But instead we get barely 5 minutes in and the bad guys show up. It was just structured in such a strange way and plot points that I just don't understand why there wasn't more time and care taken at the beginning to really set up the world. You just jumped all over the place/

[@AllThingsFilm1]

@@FrameVoyager Exactly. Part 1 should have been the backstory. Setting up the story and fleshing out the characters. Part 1 starts out with Kora farming. I guess we were supposed to feel something for Kora since she was farming by herself and everyone else was together doing something more positive. But, that's not character development. That's just exposition. It's too bad. The visuals were great. If only the story was as good as the visuals.

[@kafukwamekemeh]

@@AllThingsFilm1 So i don't get do you know the meaning of exposition and telling what the characters are going through, not every backstory has to be revealed right away the situation with the characters is what we are shown in the first min. It’s interesting to think about Hagen words on a more permanent relationship to fully be a member of the community While it’s clear he comes from a good place and care for Kora. It resembles the Motherworld’s thought on having a lover to abstract from hardships. In one case of war, in the case of Kora of lacking a home.I think this is also why she rejects this notion in the talk with Hagel. She is trying to find her way to have this community, this home. But it is less through imposition and more from true connection with other members (Gunnar, Sam, Hagen)

[@samuel6353]

300 and Watchmen (the only >good< Zack Snyder movies) only work because of two elements: Larry Fong's cinematography and the FACT that the graphic novels adapted served as storyboards, basically. The moment he tries to be the cinematographer for his own movies (Army of the Dead and Rebel Moon), they start to look like shit. And so, the only praise everyone gave him and agreed on, dies. He is not a good writer (Rebel Moon), he is not a good director (any of his movies, except 300 and Watchmen), and now we know he is not a good cinematographer (Army of the Dead and Rebel Moon). He is passionate about his works, I'll give him that, but that's where it ends. There's no talent there.

[@domhuckle]

The guy needs some screenwriters or story tellers - it's no good having a story which looks amazing, but doesn't compel an audience at all. Like Napoleon

[@linuxhub70]

His theater releases are hated yet his directors cuts are cherished. No one ever talks about the committee behind the scenes. Kind of odd that it is that way. Like lambs to the slaughter!

[@FrameVoyager]

Then maybe he should just get better at making the first release good? I would have said it was just being stuck in the DC universe and what constraints come with that, but Rebel Moon feels like the same thing all over again.

[@linuxhub70]

@@FrameVoyager His theater releases are changed in post? Again, This is what everyone conveniently skips over. Anyways, Not gonna beat a dead horse here. Committee won.

[@arnaudsm]

Poetry has no scenario, but still is fine literature. Our obsession for "rich stories" misses that cinema is a visual medium first.

[@jocedeg]

Nope: cinema is a combination of story, visuals and sound. Have you seen a movie lately ?

[@thomas6502]

Enjoyed this very much. Thank you!

[@RM_VFX]

I'm actually personally super annoyed by his visual style. I did FX for one of his films, worked my butt off for weeks getting a photoreal look for a major part of a sequence. Once he applied his trademark "visual style" to it, it was a flat, desaturated cartoon, that looks super digital on my demo reel. 😂😢

[@cremersalex]

300 and Watchmen were unique and hyper-stylized. Rebel Moon looks like everything else.

[@dartagnanjames8069]

Zack Snyder is undoubtedly very talented. His visuals are amazing and he understands how to create iconography. I just hate his edgelord style of plotting/storytelling

[@SomP0]

Snyder’s biggest issue is that he has the artistic mind of 15 year old. And unfortunately, he became big with 300 so now he doesn’t listen to people when they say his style doesn’t work everywhere. It’s most evident in Watchmen, a comic about our glorification of superheroes and how humanity needs them as distractions from the horrors of ourselves. He completely misses the point in watchmen and made a movie glorifying violence and vigilantism. It’s like a child read watchmen and went “superheroes fucking eachother is so cool”. He just needs some competent writers and he could make a good movie.

[@NextToToddliness]

Filmmaking is, and always will be, a collaborative effort. Zack Snyder will never be spoken in the same respected breath as great auteurs like Scorsese or Lucas, because he doesn't understand that filmmaking isn't action figures slamming into one another for three painful hours that could've been truncated into 30mins (sans slow-motion). When left to his own devices, Snyder makes some really bad choices in his technique, and as someone who has a superficial understanding of art, he doesn't understand that art is more than technique. I'm half-expecting him to start using more AI-tech to cut a lot of people who he should be collaborating with, in order to stay his singular "vision". That isn't auteur-ship; that's megalomania and narcissism. Lucky for him, he has a devoted following who see him, a multimillionaire, as the "under dog". It's hard to root for an under dog, when they're constantly putting themselves beneath the wheel.

[@TheinterfaceTvSeries]

Snyder has a painterly style that reminds one of Frank Frazetta.

[@itsikolia]

Snyder should make some movie with barbarian theme

[@ltaaron3368]

Comparing Zach Snyder, and Ridley Scott. Is not right. At least Ridley did a great job with world building for blade runner. Rebel moon, was very underwhelming, and frankly boring world building. With far too many Cliche's. As a wise man once said, "Bad Writing begins, and ends with cliche."

[@djdedan]

He qualified it as recent Scott... i'd actually compare Zach to Ridley's late brother Tony more than to Ridley himself

[@kafukwamekemeh]

If his movies were all paper-thin, Snyder wouldn't be controversial. He'd just be another JJ Abrams.

[@Preludedraw]

Rebel Moon should be a three parter, he can take his time gathering all the recruits in two parts, with significant fiillers that let audiences attach to the characters and the world, the Atticus Noble Arc can still be shown in part one ending, no need to do it with full recruits, and then ending the part two with stronger cliffhanger. Part 3 would ofc be the ultimate climax. But the thing is, Netflix knows it's risky to go all out and assure three movies for a new IP, so yeah, we got what we got. I'm still excited for the extended.

[@djdedan]

You can do 7 Samurai in one movie... trust me, it's been done at least twice already...

[@Preludedraw]

@@djdedan And no harm in doing in parts cept for netflix, those who enjoy will enjoy, those who are negative will stay negative, and the scale is intentionally bigger as intended for a franchise, and i prefer my scifis to be in series.

[@FrameVoyager]

Agreed. The whole team gathering so quickly just moved from one motivational speech to another and you really didn't get much sense of any of their characters. It also didn't help that you really are not given much to connect with the main protagonist for a long time. I feel like starting off the movie with her backstory first would have helped you connect with her right away and then move into her finding that village and bonding with the people that live there. But you only spend like 5 minutes at the beginning at the place that's home to her and honestly just don't care that much about it or know why you should care about it. Also, why should the rest of these characters go and ensemble together care about this random farming planet. It just feels rushed to get to cool battle scenes and the in-between character dialogue falls flat. I hope it goes on to do well with the second part, I just think this first movie just doesn't do enough to get you invested by the time important things happen to the main characters.

[@Preludedraw]

@@FrameVoyager Yeah, exactly that, like they're just for no reason being part of the bunch. This cut is real awful, curious as to who put this together. A real let down, but i am a sucker for visuals, scifis and new worlds, it's a thirst and i really hope the extended will do justice, really really hope.

[@yammt3148]

Like J.J. Abrams, Zack just isn't a good writer. He can direct. THAT'S IT.

[@djn1822]

Nah…with that logic, Chris Nolan is fragmented in his storytelling-the narrative loops are rarely closed, even despite heavy exposition. This substance issue, is problem of cultural bias and yeah, cognitive laziness, and since there is a lot of visuals to go with it, people mistakenly settle further that. Shallow interpretations are the standard. Now, it’s just cultural. Neuroscience and behavioral science will definitely argue the pants off most “critics” At least you got a comment out of me…yay.

[@lucasgafs]

very good analysis, i love your storytelling

[@FrameVoyager]

Appreciate it!.

[@vvanheukelum]

I think it's debatable whether or not a movie HAS to have both... Lots of media doesn't do both substance AND looks/feels. Coldplay's music is whiny template music that sells millions. P0rn completely lacks story but sells millions. And don't even get me started on abstract paintings. Lots of the Snyder movies feel like long epic screensavers, and I enjoy the looks and feels, and for me the story is of lesser concern. There are more issues to point out with Zack's writing in that regard. Pretty much all his lead characters have missing parents or parent issues. The constant usage of Christ-like imagery, you name it. And just like Science fiction shows getting the science wrong, I don't mind Snyder getting the story "wrong", because that's not the part of my mind I was trying to entertain when I went to see one of his movies.

[@macandbern]

Maybe they were hoping to engineer a release the Snyder cut chant for this film. The R-Rated 'Directors Cut' is still coming? No doubt that will be the film as it was intended to be seen. Begs the question though, why do you let Snyder do his thing. . .then not release the cut of the film he envisions? Not sure some extra gore would change the story too much, but it seems a strange move. . . I just wish they had applied the same distortion and visual abberations that the lenses display to the CG wide shots. It just feels like such a rough cut jumping from the really thick image from those anamorphics to the crisp and clean CG scenes. . .small thing, but it was distracting I felt. So weird they didnt' keep the effect consistent.

[@isuriadireja91]

it's not that his vision for Rebel Moon was darker and edgier....it's just highly UN-original and dumber.

[@JohnnyWednesday]

I came here for the cameras - not your opinion piece and certainly not character assassinations. He might have done some bad stuff but he's not using his platform to belittle others.

[@FrameVoyager]

I don't know how this is a character assassination or belittling someone? Honestly, it's a praise of his visuals and an examination of visuals is enough for success. More of a question at the end than a statement. I have no problem with Zack Snyder lol

[@MrGittz]

I think your wrong. I don’t think audiences are getting great visuals and fully realized worlds with other films. No other film looks like a Snyder film. He’s like 90% of filmmakers. Hit or miss. His original works usually tend to be lacking.

[@JC_923]

This guy is a prime example of being promoted beyond his level of competence. He just isn't a good movie maker. He's far from the worse. But the industry and some viewers clearly expect S tier movies from this B+ tier director

[@Vor567tez]

In his Wired interview called "ZS answer questions from X" he said ,he did 10yrs of commercials. My guess is that his obsession with slo-mo arise right from there. In commercials making the product look tasteful is prime objective. No concern for storytelling. He still reflect that mind set to this day. His movies are like a glorified commercial, only interested in showing how COOL the tire (a totally irrelevant component ) looks while spinning in slow-mo.

[@anonimniqt]

Just wait for the Director's cut of Rebel Moon and then make conclusions about the movie. I love 300, Watchmen and Sucker Punch, and Snyder cuts are awesome. His movies are visual extravaganza but I don't agree about this style over substance thing. I really like plot ideas in movies like Watchmen and Sucker Punch. Current version of Rebel Moon is not bad, and I'm sure Snyder cut will be great.

[@Direfloof]

It’s that much more offputting that Rebel Moon is a project Snyder has had in mind for most of his career. How do you spend your entire adult life wanting to make a movie that ends up being a sci-fi copypasta with the world’s most expensive Instagram filters

[@diegogutierrez1997]

I always get the feeling that Snyder is someone that feels like he has to out edge everyone. Like, you could give him the right to adapt Garth Ennis ' crossed and he'd be like "oh well, what if the baby eaten in chapter 4 was first hard r'd by a crossed horse so bad that the infected learn how to do burgers again because of how torn the meat is"

[@Whaddayamean13]

I’m holding out for the R-rated cuts, because Snyder’s movies are usually comments on their own genres. This was basically designed as a Star Wars movie that confronts you about why you like Star Wars. That can’t be done in a PG-13, at least not with Zack’s. 300, Watchmen, Sucker Punch, Dawn of the Dead, and BvS are all deliberately turned up in style to make you question WHY you want those kinds of movies. Robocop did the same thing. So did Brazil. It was just stupid of Netflix to do this cut down PG-13 version because that wasn’t Snyder’s design. And dumb by Zack to go along with that

[@byucatch22]

I guess I'm one who likes what ZS does, more or less. Rebel Moon was not my favorite, but BvS Extended Edition is one I keep going back to and like more each time.

[@izzieb]

I haven't seen this movie, however I respect his commitment to his ideas and creations. I agree with what you stated at the end regarding more recent films. it's amusing to think that the same media outlets criticising his films for paper thin story telling are now more than willing to give the latest generic Disney/Marvel films rave reviews...

[@FrameVoyager]

I respect it as well. This video isn't really an indictment of him it's just looking at the information and how people view him and his work and the correlations between reviews across all of his films. But for critics, you really have to find the right ones. I have one's that I usually go to that are usually pretty balanced.

[@maxjohnson6502]

In this day and age that isn’t the case.

[@FrameVoyager]

I wouldn't say many critics are giving Disney rave reviews this year haha. But I know what you mean.

[@doc8013]

Why does it always have to come back to Disney? And in this instance it isn't even right about the critics and their so-called praise of Marvel/Star Wars.

[@KennethLyVideography]

Snyder has always fascinated me. Starting out as fan and then growing into a critic of his work, what bothers me the most about his film isn't the fact that they are all aesthetic, it's that they are what I would actually call pretentious. His films wants to be important, talk about about grand important ideas but fails to truly be thoughtful, understand or be empathetic of the topics he want to tackle. He seems unwilling to embrace the "aesthetic can be the narrative"-approach that Wes Anderson and George Miller has and it detracts from his films that could be arthouse masterpieces. But his obsession with making "deep"-movies is also what makes him more interesting than a Micheal Bay and is probably why he has such dedicated fanbase.

[@octogigas]

14:10 If all Zack Snyder's films had to offer were pretty visuals, then 300 wouldn't still be popular nearly 20 years later. Sucker Punch wouldn't have a massive cult following among feminist critics and continually be dissected for its themes long after its release. No one would be analyzing his treatment of heroic myth archetypes in Batman v Superman and Man of Steel, and there would have been no demand for his cut of Justice League. If his movies were all paper-thin, he wouldn't be controversial. He'd just be another JJ Abrams. Audiences reject hollow visual grandeur all the time. Every Disney and DC Comics film this year has been a box office catastrophe. I've grown very tired of this persistent dismissive notion among critics that Zack Snyder is some brain-dead adolescent edgelord like Michael Bay, and that he's only concerned with "cool" testosterone-fueled imagery as a 2D abstract. Obviously not everything he's directed works, and like Ridley Scott (that's a GREAT comparison, BTW) his films have had a weirdly contentious relationship with studio heads despite his track record. But the reason he has such a strong fanbase is because of the stories, characters, and thought he puts into the meaning and subtext behind the imagery in his films. He's a smart man, whether you like him or not.

[@psychfi4995]

Wow, someone with a brain here

[@drunkenmonkey1887]

Logical fallacy. Circular argument. You think you're describing different groups that show interest in his movies. In reality, they're all the same 16 year old edge lords, trying desperately to justify them devoting so much of their time and energy and life on this shit. The reason he has such a vocal fanbase is exactly the same reason why kids argue over PlayStation and Xbox.

[@octogigas]

@@drunkenmonkey1887 You really just spouted off the exact same empty BS and tried to blanket it with the terms "logical fallacy" and "circular argument" to make yourself sound smart. You must be a big James Gunn fan.

[@drunkenmonkey1887]

@@octogigas Your start by saying that if his movies were bad, he wouldn't have fans. You finish with saying that his films are the reason he has fans. That is a circular argument. Also, having fans is not proof his movies are good. That is a classic logical fallacy. People can be fans of things that aren't good.

[@thedeep2202]

@@drunkenmonkey1887aren’t good according to who? Lol he has the biggest fan base a director has ever had. His movies touch and move a whole mass of people. Talking about edge lords like it’s a bad thing is crazy. Nothing wrong with disliking kids movies like marvel where everything is a joke. Those movies are for pussies. Pussy 😉

[@jamesslemmons8453]

Snyder would make a brilliant DP for a higher level storyteller.

[@chrissullivan6403]

He was the DP for Army of the Dead and Rebel Moon and those are his worst looking flicks.

[@jamesslemmons8453]

@@chrissullivan6403 The Point being, that he has a visual style that is much better than his storytelling abilities.

[@chrissullivan6403]

@@jamesslemmons8453 I mean that is true, but his work as a DP is as bad as his story telling. He should stick to directing and work with talented writers and a solid cinematographer. He should do neither of those jobs.

[@j0shj0shj0sh]

I liked Dawn of the Dead. Since then, I find his movies so heavily post-processed, that they feel inauthentic. Like I'm watching a video game.

[@kamukameh]

I neither love nor hate him, as you say, on the visual standpoint he is in his element. Maybe it would be cool if he had a critical storytelling, acting- and story-based co-director to work with, because he always plays the same story-points over and over again. It's not so much the visuals but the stories that make him look like a bit of a fascist I think. Here's a song of mine ... kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZ-oh4CdqNyjfJo

[@kado982]

There was a time where for 5 years Zach Snyder was my favorite director. I think his decline started with Batman Vs Superman. It wasnt horrible but the story was lacking. From there i started to like his movies less & less. They became hollow eye candy like James Camerons work. So other directors outdid zack. Directors like David Fincher, Christopher Nolan, Martin Scorcese, Sam Mendes, Dennis Vilanueve.

[@kafukwamekemeh]

the same Christopher Nolan who has praised Zack for his movies right?

[@Vambam121]

59% audience score now.

[@FrameVoyager]

Yeahhh, I wonder how many people are going to really want to come back and watch the next one.

[@tomhahnl1927]

I love Zack Snyder, absolutely love BvS, Watchmen, 300 and JL!!! Rebel Moon to be hones I was disappointed, still looking forward to the Directors Cut. Like Ridley Scott, not every movie can be a masterpiece even in my book.

[@FrameVoyager]

Yeah it's just really unfortunate. I feel like he had something with this concept, it's just so underdeveloped and rushed story with no time to even care about the characters. I really feel like putting the main characters whole backstory at the beginning would help, because I really struggled to care about her character specifically.

[@yurikendal4868]

Why not release the directors cut directly? Ive no desire to see an exceptionally bloated mess that is synder's director's cut. The movies you mentioned were horrific in storytelling. Their director's cut only amplified his horrorible story telling. No thanks.

[@erin1758]

great video, but the dead pixel is making me lose my mind. such a small, hilarious reference/joke. amazing job

[@FrameVoyager]

Where is the missing pixel? 😅😅😅

[@simongervais9302]

All of what was said was accurate and valid However, as a Zack Snyder fan, I want to say that Rebel Moon is the worst thing I've seen from him. I loved Ga'Hoole and Sucker Punch, I loved Watchmen and 300. But not this... and I did not bother to watch his DCU run... even though some elements looked cool...

[@FrameVoyager]

Yeah, I was super disappointed with Rebel Moon. I just don't understand wanting to build a cinematic universe but barely doing anything to actually build it out.

[@rw3452]

Zack should be a DP maybe instead of a director?

[@FrameVoyager]

DP and visual effects director? That actually would probably be sick

[@benjamindover4337]

Thats actually a brilliant idea. He would be a great visual effects director.

[@LuisSierra42]

He's a good director, he's not so great at writing

[@FrameVoyager]

@@LuisSierra42 yeahhhh, I feel like with that resolved it could be interesting

[@itsd0nk]

Or even just a director and not writer, similar to J.J.’s problems

[@hagnerlands]

MOS is an atrocity for Superman. It seems Snyder hate Superman as he was conceived and wants to Batmanize the character. Bad, bad move.

[@HuanLeVuong]

He is still a successful filmmaker. Fans, haters and neutral people all stream his products. Netflix knows that and has made a smart investment.

[@cremersalex]

"Ridley Scott should do it like Gladiator" Sigh! Why do people always want what they already have?

[@brentpeddy4223]

I definitely agree with the previous comment @RobVespa. I did hear a rumor that Netflix asked for a PG 13 version so that they could pull a Syndercut version latee and double down on viewership down the road and that Snyder himself said the current version is unrecognizable from his vision. Who knows. I thought it was entertaining but lacking. And the 'cantina' scene ripoff from Star Wars A New Hope was definitely unwarranted and unnecessary. That was very disappointing. Definitely his talent is in vision and not storytelling.

[@chrissullivan6403]

Snyder seems like a perfectly nice guy but the combination of his two most recent films being legitimately terrible and his fanbase containing some of the most obnoxious people on the internet has really made me turn on him.

[@deltavagen9796]

So glad we don't have to pay for movies anymore

[@FrancoDFernando]

I always thought that 300 and Watchmen were decent since everything was basically written and storyboarded for Zach Snyder from the beginning since he tried to stay faithful to the comics as much as possible, even so much as recreating a lot of the panes 1 to 1. So all he had to do was not change it too much, and just focus on visualizing it on the big screen.

[@mattbaldwin1150]

He makes movies for his own teenage mentality. His aesthetic is a dreamworld you can tell was made with tons of cgi and green screens. I for one love it when I’m fooled by the cgi and have an adult level story to lose myself in. Zack doesn’t make those kinds of movies. I also hate that he has a toxic fan base and seems to enjoy it.

[@RealTechnoPanda]

Snyder is good at what he does. I like and appreciate what he does. His work and style resonates with me!

[@FrameVoyager]

For sure! This video was more an examination more than a criticism

[@jonahhekmatyar]

Rebel Moon was excruciating dumb, but I must admit I enjoyed everything except the pegasus flight arc. I have such a guilty pleasure for these overly indulgent movies, and I think if he got someone to write the characters, he'd make some of the most well liked movies.

[@FrameVoyager]

I think that's the part I was most confused about. For all the talk about wanting to do a world build on a cinematic universe, in the movie it felt like that part was just a chore to get to the fight scenes.

[@braunmcash3117]

And this is not an original story. It's entire plot line comes from the 1980 sci fi Battle Beyond the Stars. This looks more like a proof-of-concept project rather than a fully fleshed-out feature.

[@ianbrennan9635]

Whether you like Snyder's films or not, there's going to be one heck of a flame war to follow.

[@DiestroCorleone]

I commented this exact same thing in another video: I love Snyder's visual style (Army of the Dead might be an exception), but keep him out of the writers room.

[@mathewsherreard487]

You can’t polish a turd.! Maybe not. But you can sure as hell roll it in Glitter.!