Framework 16: The Ultimate Upgradeable Laptop

[@saturnotaku]

This seems very much like a "version 1.0" product that needs some refinement. Tech heads and early adopters will soak it up in droves, which should hopefully give Framework the capital to smooth out the rough edges.

[@cameronbosch1213]

Tell me another Linux capable (with official Linux support) laptop that has a 16 : 10 screen, an ANSI keyboard, and an AMD Ryzen CPU and AMD Radeon GPU.

[@Ell_the_Nuke]

Plus it doesn’t sting to be an early adopter since you can just add the upgrades when they come out

[@chic_luke]

@@cameronbosch1213 This is the only reason that is making me not immediately cancel my pre-order. As a Linux user... you kinda don't have another choice

[@cameronbosch1213]

@@chic_luke Same here. I use Linux, and after THREE 2023 Windows gaming laptops had dealbreaking flaws on Linux, I'm kind of screwed unless I want crappy old laptops with 16 : 9 screens, mediocre build quality, and less options. Not to mention they'll be even MORE expensive.

[@MyNameIsBucket]

@@cameronbosch1213 oh my stars, your laptop that can SCRUB A 4K VIDEO AND DO REALTIME RAYTRACING has a little bit of flex in the display. it's traaaaaaaaaash! i don't know what qualifies as "mediocre build quality" these days, outside of tech bros who want their laptops to be fashion accessories. maybe get a padded bag and stop tossing around your $2000 electronics like gym clothes.

[@maxtornogood]

Framework have been very transparent about their process and I know they'll keep working through the imperfections.

[@JustJoshTech]

Well said, and I agree

[@Razzy_III]

The CS2 stutters are a CS2 issue, it’s compiling and caching the shaders for the first time during gameplay on each new map after a new install or major update. You might see them come back briefly loading into maps you didn’t test yet.

[@mildvex]

This here, correct. Wanted to say the same but scrolled down before to see if it was mentioned already.

[@desklamp4792]

I thought most games do this on Linux, but honestly I wouldn't even be able to remember because like he said it doesn't last long.

[@MrGamelover23]

Why can't it just compile on startup?

[@mba849]

​@@desklamp4792 Vulkan games do compile shaders before launch, thats why some games have a popup saying 'compiling shaders' and you have to wait before you can play. It happens before first launch and doesn't happen afterwards. Its not a Linux thing, its a vulkan thing. DirectX compiles shaders on the fly which means u may experience some stuttering on the first launch.

[@HuskyMoment]

Gotta say, as a developer I've never had an issue with a 1440p panel, let alone a 1080p panel for what I'm doing. I'm not sure what kind of "coders" your referring to but I don't think 4K is really necessary for looking at 13pt text all day.

[@cameronbosch1213]

Same here. Maybe Josh has bad eyes. 👀

[@iraklimgeladze5223]

May be its nice have higher resolution, but what I notice as code, is that in small screen the biggest problem is spacing between elements. when everything is danced together it can be overwhelming

[@MacA60230]

The better your eyes the worse a low res panel will look because you'll be able to see individual pixels. So quite the opposite, you might be the ones with bad eyes @@cameronbosch1213

[@kenyakking]

I think he's comparing with a MacBook. I do see individual pixels on a Windows laptop in comparison FWIW. That's on a 1200p screen too

[@alpacamale2909]

KZbinrs have this problem, they are always hungry for more

[@FischOderAal]

I was in the batch 1 for the first 13 inch 11th gen framework and batch 1 for the first AMD framework. The third iteration with AMD feels significantly better than the first one. I assume the same will happen with the 16 inch framework. Every iteration will get better and you will be able to upgrade it to fix whatever you didn't like. Other than the bios battery fix I didn't install any improvement on the 11th gen.

[@JustJoshTech]

I would assume so!

[@progenitor_amborella]

Intriguing bit on the coil whine, from the 5th update on the F16 shipping timing update (Jan 11): “Resolved issues: 1. Tuning capacitor noise - We found and resolved one additional scenario that could result in a high pitch noise coming from the Mainboard when using >20V power adapters.” I wonder if perhaps there are more scenarios where this occurs, or if you managed to somehow get a unit without this fix.

[@JustJoshTech]

Interesting, we did update the bios

[@bbrainstormer2036]

It's very possible they sent a unit from before they applied the fix

[@VideogamesAsArt]

the units they sent to reviewers have MOST the issues fixed but not all of them, so maybe this is one of the ones that is fixed on the customers version but not the reviews one. We can hope!

[@progenitor_amborella]

In their blog post about reviews going live they mentioned many fixes coming, including electrical noise coming from main board or graphics module!

[@PerhapsGuy]

As you pointed out, the Framework 16 has a lot of issues, but the issues it has don't really bother me too much. Plus, I love what the company has set out to do, and I already have an 11th gen 13", so I already know what to expect. Great review, and I can't wait for mine to come in!

[@kamm3021]

A bit larger and upgradable is better than shorter and fixed components for life

[@meal_team_six]

Said the same thing when I dumped my short husky ideologically-ridged ex-gf!

[@sihamhamda47]

And Framework absolutely nailed it all. Their smaller 13 inch lineup is also very upgradable while being as thin as most modern ultrabooks

[@MacA60230]

Did it really have to look like shit tho?

[@easymoney480]

yes, as long as people know what they are getting into

[@tipturkey1283]

but if it costs double the price of a competing product, you could just buy 2 new laptops over the same product lifespan instead; so its a bit of a moot point currently

[@Duoprism]

I think the most interesting thing will be how Framework handles a Gen 2 of this product. It may just be needing to buy a Gen 2 chassis which would save Gen 1 users a lot of money as they can carry over any components they don't need upgraded and buying any upgrades where needed. That could save you a lot of money compared to buying a brand new laptop from another company even with its current price tag.

[@OSCrustacean]

When it comes to the keyboard deck flex LTT pointed out they said they would ship any parts to people whose orders have already shipped if they could find a solution, and yeah a Gen 2 chassis probably won't cost us too much if they do eventually come up with one. Pretty happy about how transparent they are with their development and what they're willing to do for their customers.

[@pvalpha]

Thank you for the review. I will say that I am still looking forward to my framework 16 and the primary reason is that it checked all the boxes. 16:10 matte display, AMD cpu + gpu, 2 accessible ram slots, a full-sized m2 and a second m2... and 6 perpherial ports. *six* ports. Plus whatever is included with the dGPU. Completely replaceable components... but the most important part: if the hinges go south I can BUY THEM STRAIGHT FROM THE COMPANY! I have gone through 6 workstation/gaming class laptops that have failed because of the hinge in their 4th-5th year of use. Its just obscene. Gigabyte/Aorus, Dell, HP, Clevo... *sigh* Machines I spent thousands on. I can tell you their failure mode too - Metal hinge epoxy/screwed to a plastic layer that became brittle after thermal exposure. The only laptops I've never had a hinge crack on were MBPs and the T440s laptop from work. That's it. About the only thing I hope is that the shield between the keyboard deck and the main board gets re-enforced. It looked really wobbly there so I suspect deck flex on typing might be an issue and that you might be able to improve key-feel with some re-enforcement.

[@13n1304]

I wish they had dual USB C modules, even if they would sacrifice some features for at least one port. I often need more ports, not fast ones. The features I find really interesting are the modules next to the keyboard, I would absolutely love some eink module or even the led matrixes and display some useful info on them using custom code.

[@Originalimoc]

The main thing that wrong is the price.. 7840HS+1T+32G+P3/165Hz is $1600 while I can buy a new one except sRGB/90Hz for $600... almost near 3 of it. Right to repair is when you want to retain the old obvious valuable stuff like replacing the new Macbook's only 8GB (non-replaceable) RAM. Going from a $600 what's the money face value left just two three years? $200 ~ $300? IMO these company should better invest in mineral material recycle infrastructure than charge people 3x the price for the right idea but meaningless execution.

[@davidboesen4400]

Great review! Already have my preorder (bacth 7), but it’s nice that the worst issue is one they already have discussed at length and have already improved from the review units

[@estebanguerrero682]

From my experience with an ideapad 5 15 (broken hinge design) I don't care if it looks dated or even if it looks like an acual piece of crap, I care that the thing is well designed, well cooled and well built.

[@ZeroPageX]

According to Framework, the 240W charging is not for later, it's for when you tax the CPU and GPU right now. Unfortunately, nobody currently makes a 240W USB-C adapter, so the battery will drain even when you're plugged in if you push the laptop all the way.

[@safak7040]

I cancelled my pre-order after watching this review. I’d have chosen this over a non-Framework laptop and was ok with paying the premium because I wanted to support the company, and the fact that it can be upgraded would help me save money later on. But I expect a new laptop, especially at this price, to have fewer issues. I don’t want to start looking forward to getting a chassis upgrade from day 1 of receiving my NEW laptop. I guess this is expected from the first generation of any product, but how impressive this thing is for a first attempt doesn’t make it more valuable to most consumers. So I’ll go with a different one this time, and when it needs upgrading (in not sure how many years), I’ll look into Framework again. I trust it will be a better choice then than it is right now.

[@darkmugetsu6572]

I bought a 1st gen 13 inch knowing there would be imperfections and I gave my trust to them and they ironed out some issues, better speakers and hinges! Years later I will buy a 16 inch and know they should be able to iron out some of the imperfections later as well.

[@krane15]

That's true for any ventured capitalist. Remember all the quality control issues with Teslas? They've com a long was as of late but there still struggling with that even today.

[@lucamagni99]

Brutally honest, great review!

[@imperiumcommentingnetwork4677]

i bought a 13 inch, intel 11gen framework. Aside from the rtc design flaw, I love this laptop. I plan to get a 16" when the base price goes down

[@iamtheZanewrestling1review]

Josh thank & Taylor for the review and the testing on linux

[@JustJoshTech]

You got it!

[@lostskull7467]

I know it might come across as coping, but the lower bezel being that thick and making the screen be slightly higher makes it a tiny bit more ergonomic when compared to regular laptops.

[@JustJoshTech]

I agree

[@ZeLoShady]

It seems like you don't place much value on what framework is doing in the laptop space and are only interested in the best price to performance for a laptop. I think it's a little unfair given the fact that there isn't a single other laptop on the planet that has reparability and upgradability like the framework does. Especially compared to Apple who actively lobby against consumers being able to repair their own products. The only reason they have done any improvements in that category over the last 2 years is because the EU & US threatened them with legislation if they didn't change their extremely anti-repair policies. Apple is one of the worst offenders for anti-consumer behavior, like on John Deer levels of bad and in a world with massive electronic waste (and waste in general) problems, we need to place so much more value on products that can be used for 10 years vs products that can be used for 3-5 years. FW won't purposely slow a devices performance to make consumers want to throw out their old device and upgrade to a new one, Apple will and have done already. Another extremely valuable thing, especially for tech geeks is the configuration options of the laptop when you order it. What other brands have as many options as FW for config? None. Finally, a consumer can get almost exactly what THEY want and not be stuck with limited config options from manufacturers. That is so much more valuable than the fans being a little loud. I haven't done programming in 8 years or so now but who the hell programs without listening to something on earbuds or headphones.

[@cameronbosch1213]

If you don't recommend this laptop, then what do you recommend for Linux users? Becuase in the US, there isnt any other modern option with a dGPU. System76 is uncompetitive with even Framework and Tuxedo and Slimbook are a fortune to ship to the US and lack good keyboard layouts.

[@incognito7843]

Lenovo, they have many models tested with Linux and if you opt with preinstalled Suse or Ubuntu, you will even have it supported for Linux use. SO you wont have any issues with trackpad drivers etc And you will get the best keyboard on the laptop market. Lenovo is more or less a nobrainer for Linux users. If you can afford it, and want a centered keyboard, I would recommend ThinkPad Z16 Gen 2, mostly because of battery life. The intel based ones have quite bad battery life.

[@cameronbosch1213]

@@incognito7843 Z16 has too few ports and a worse touchpad than other ThinkPads. Try again.

[@PatKilo]

I enjoy your review style since it emphasizes the growing pains that Framework experiences with their computers. The opportunity to update the CPU after few generations is the most important feature for me. When it happens, I can receive a 30-40% CPU boost on my laptop without paying the entire $1300+ price. I'm speaking from experience, having owned a 13-inch framework laptop. When upgrading the CPU or motherboard, the old one can be powered outside of the laptop chassis. Allowing you to purchase a case from framework as a standalone computer with VESA mounting capabilities. I used to own an Asus Zephyrus G14 GA104IV laptop, which regrettably died from water damage last year. I checked to see if I could get any spare components from any authorized or third-party websites. Unfortunately, no one is selling components for that laptop anymore. I appreciate the idea of a framework that allows users to fix their own laptops; all spare components, including the top and bottom cases, are still available on their marketplace. The ability to replace broken parts, upgrade the CPU/motherboard, and then reuse the old motherboard as a mini PC at home is really important to me.

[@andyH_England]

The parts are expensive with 13th gen motherboard (not even current) costing £1049 for the i7-1370P! I can buy a new 14-gen for that with OLED and 16GB of RAM! I think people have over expectations of this.

[@VideogamesAsArt]

@@andyH_England On the other hand a 7840U board is below 700, which is a much better pick than 13th gen Intel.

[@nerd20fromdiscord]

I think large under display bezels aren’t that bad since they raise up the display and reduce neck strain

[@c0p0n]

Very patronising recommendations at the end. Someone who wants a 16 inch laptop is not going to be satisfied with a 13 incher, as simple as that.

[@rist98]

So, fan noise or machine noise in general. I'd prefer to have the idle or low usage levels be measured too as that matters more to me.

[@oncrei]

Where was the macbook M3 in the gaming section. Oh, that's right.

[@aardee175]

The extra bezel is just fine by me, brings the display higher to eye level.

[@natejowens]

Don’t need a laptop yet, but will most likely go for this due to the life cycle cost advantage. Hope this spurs other companies to introduce modular options.

[@Inaf1987]

Could these guys also start making Phones and Tablets?

[@AninoNiKugi]

As expected with niche products from small companies who are trying to create tech "the right way hence more complicated way", it's inferior to the competition in some aspects and it's more expensive in terms of feature/specs to price ratio. Hopefully Framework can fix these quirks in the future and make it an actual viable option for mainstream market. Right now, I think their products are mostly for people who believes and support what they're doing.

[@krane15]

Like Tesla?

[@soltysss]

Yes, it's not perfect, but as a developer I do not have much of a choice here - ether buy MacBook or use Linux on windows machine with all driver problems that come with it. I need Unix system and therefore my choices extremely limited. Only problem I have is that it's not available in my country and I would have to figure out logistics, that is the only reason I might consider going back to MacBook.

[@meal_team_six]

What about Thinkpad, system 76, or HP Elitebooks? You can run Linux natively. I run Fedora on my Thinkpad T14s Gen 3 AMD with no issues. Some devs on my team run Linux on Dell XPS

[@davidkorcak]

In the end, all of those are pretty lackluster compared to Mac quality of life. Don't get me wrong, the Framework and others are upgradable and all. But when I held and tried the framework physically in real life, it was shittiest, cheapest feeling, poorly built machine.@@meal_team_six

[@soltysss]

@@meal_team_six There's no mention of Linux support neither on Thinkpad or HP or dell websites, when I open their respective websites they advertise only Windows 11 pro support. Elitebooks was my initial choice as I can buy it right now but it's a still windows laptop that happens to be compatible with linux. system 76 - not available in any store in my country, also can't be shipped there, so it's the same problem as with Framework.

[@megamastah]

I use Dell XPS with Ubuntu, no issues. Same with HP Elitebooks in my company (though they can spin the fans quite a bit).

[@cameronbosch1213]

​@meal_team_six You can, but you'll get ZERO help. And the XPS 13 developer edition is probably dead, given it's already a poor choice with Windows.

[@Sock-qv9wr]

Thank you Josh! Few laptop reviewers are as concise and dedicated like you are.

[@Sonyboj]

More of a workstation than a gaming laptop. Imo it seems perfect for VMs due to 64GB RAM max and 2 M.2 SSD slots. I keep my laptop docked anyway and use external screen & mouse&kb

Although 64 GB RAM is the largest configuration currently available from Framework, it should be possible to build a 96 GB one using 2 x 48 GB DDR5. People have successfully put that in the AMD Framework 13, and the 16 has essentially the same processor. (The 7940HS is the same chip as the 7840U, except with higher power limits so it can run faster.) Even more RAM will be possible in the future.

[@christopherwestphal7149]

Looks like the new AMD FMF driver wasn't tried? Just mentions of FSR3. Seems like with most Framework the shipping firmware has bugs and needs an update or two (like every OEM these days). I hope they shift to a better firmware one of these days, they just aren't big enough to get the attention from the vendor so they end up only getting one or two firmware updates a year.

[@gyruhu]

Something about the price, for many of the components, you can bring your own. Right down to the power brick. The price can be knocked down substantially. At least where I live I can find good value alternatives for ram and ssd.

[@CMDRunematti]

Dude... The only reason I'm buying a laptop is because it's the framework. It's not like I want a dedicated gpu gaming laptop so I choose it. It's simply because they came out with the 16 inch, and there's no way I'll buy a laptop that's not as feature rich and customizable. I've been gaming on geforce now for years without a hitch. If the choice is any other gaming machine - nothing, then nothing would win for the next, possibly, decade. I want to support them, I want to tinker, and I want to reduce my future waste impact. I just hope my trust isn't misplaced (but after this review I'm sure my friend would hate this machine. He's an apple guy, through and through. A hint of coil whine would drive him up the wall, meanwhile me, having 5 phones, all broken and barely functioning chrome os as daily driver... Oh mind you, a 96gb ram kit is waiting for my framework. And I'll use an old m.2...let's see which other laptops can be bought without ram and ssd)

[@adequatequality]

The biggest concern I have with a company like Framework is whether consumers are truly willing to spend a little more on something that is fully upgradeable/cuztomizable at the exchange of paying a little bit less and maybe getting extended warranty for their non-Framework laptop. Don't get me wrong, the company seems on a great path and they're doing something unique, but at this moment, I can't possibly justify being so caught up in upgradeability when modern day warranties can cover 99% of use cases.

[@Whomecouldntb3]

My thoughts exactly. This feel extremely niche and most of the enthusiasts who would want this level of upgradability would not gravitate to laptop form factor. At least in my feelings.

[@cameronbosch1213]

​@@Whomecouldntb3I would.

[@cameronbosch1213]

I have done those modern warranties, and one of them bricked my laptop time and time again to the point I gave up.

[@adequatequality]

@@cameronbosch1213 Ya for something like that, I can totally understand the headache of having to deal with subpar repair services time and time again. I can see the Framework laptop being useful in that instance to avoid the headache altogether.

[@ZeLoShady]

Thing is though, your warranty won't cover dust blocking the fans that you cant get out (causing heating issues) or a hinge that breaks with natural use or a battery that goes to shit after 2 years and you also have to trust a company to honor their warranty policy. With the framework, you can fix every component on your own with guides provided by them. Want a new CPU? Buy a new motherboard and chuck it in instead of selling what was a (lets say) 2k laptop for $800 down the line and buying another 2k laptop. Framework also sells cases so you can chuck that old motherboard into one and use it as a mini PC on it's own. Gift it to a kid if you want, whatever. Smart consumers are willing to spend more up front for long term savings on reparability and upgradability. Framework is also letting people make their own 3rd party expansion ports for the IO & GPU slots so you have even more options down the road. To say that modern warranties will cover 99% of use cases is silly. What does that even mean? Warranties don't cover you using it, they cover manufacturing defects and that's if the company honors them. Extended warranties have always been a scam because again, warranty does not cover defects from the result of natural use and degradation. A laptop company won't cover a screen that develops a dead pixels 3 years after you bought it. That's not a manufacturing defect. Same with battery, broken keys, hinges, speakers or literally any part on the laptop.

[@cameronbosch1213]

10:07 Did you set the screen to 60 hz in Windows? That could make a HUGE difference.

[@JustJoshTech]

yes

[@cameronbosch1213]

Huh, looking at LTT's review and what they've sent people in Batch 1 compared to reviewers makes me think you could have gotten a potential defective unit. I'll compare the results to my Batch 1 model when I get mine. Thanks for responding!

[@meal_team_six]

@@cameronbosch1213 Thank you for being a beta-tester for the rest of us! lol

[@leandrodasilva2523]

I was always curious about new laptops. Only this one made me excited

[@venanks]

Good to know that this laptop has Linux support out of the box and officially on their website. But the price is too high for me to get one.

[@Skimpily4426]

Had an opportunity to talk to a firmware developer during one of the conferences as well as listen for his talk. It was very interesting to hear how many challenges these guys are facing to bring this kind of laptops and that eventually they are figuring it out! In 2024 when everybody just solders shit down. Plus guys are creating some cool post-laptop use-cases for their motherboards.

[@krane15]

To be fair, it was the market that drove manufactures to soldered configurations in favor of thing and light.

[@Skimpily4426]

@@krane15 , market or some specific company with over the top marketing budgets? I mean, other that “sexy commercial pic” why do you need a paper thin laptop? Laptop that weights around 1.4kg is going to be enough thin anyways. These guys had figured out how to make everything swappable in a 13.5 chassis maintaining the weight of a laptop around 1.3kg, so why wouldn’t other manufacturers do the same? Upsell, that is it.

[@checkanr138]

nah, it was planned obscolence that "lead" them that way. surface pro for example ditched gluing all stuff together and the device is same size now. dont believe all the crap the corporations say @@krane15

[@EvilCoffeeInc]

Its not clear to me what "usability" problems this laptop has. It seems as though there are some less-than-ideals but very few of them are usability issues? I dunno, I wasnt expecting this device to be the absolute best in class laptop, and almost every single issue brought up in this review strikes me as something I'm happy to overlook for the sake of the device's modularity and upgradability. Also as a programmer I personally have never had issues with reading text on a 1080p monitor. As far as im concerned this display will be a step up from my already just fine screen. Maybe I'm missing something but I'm just not seeing what makes this such a nonstarter.

[@JustJoshTech]

The most important thing is that the laptop is right for you. I try to call out as many issues as i can find with them, so you can make an informed decisions. Then at the end round out with my general recommendation that matches, who i believe are the majority of my audience.... but the majority is far from everyone :)

[@sebastian.tristan]

I love the Framework concept and I would ignore some of the flaws mentioned in this video. But for such a price, you must have a better screen. At least OLED with slim bezels. By the way, thanks for reviewing the Linux version as well.

[@TheMstwntdLMSV123]

I think an underrated feature is the option for 83 Hz to 165 Hz dynamic refresh rate switching. My M16 only allows switching between 240 Hz and 60 Hz. 240 Hz drains the battery way too much but 60 Hz feels like an unnecessary compromise. ~90 Hz is a great sweet spot. I think more manufacturers should introduce this

[@krazed0451]

The lagging after load isn't a Framework or Linux issue, it's an AMD/CS2 issue. The first min or so is spent caching texture shaders when the texture/effect first appears ;-) Why these caches do not persist is anyone's guess.

[@JustJoshTech]

👉 Our Favorite Laptops: www.justjosh.tech/best-tech/ Framework 16 (AMD): frame.work/products/laptop16-diy-amd-7040 Framework 13 (AMD): frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-amd 👇 All Our Favorite Laptops & Deals - Best for Programmers: www.justjosh.tech/best-tech/Best-Laptops-for-Coding - Best for Students: www.justjosh.tech/best-tech/Best-Laptops-for-Students - Best for Gamers: www.justjosh.tech/best-tech/Best-Laptops-for-Gaming - Best Deals on MacBooks: www.justjosh.tech/best-tech/Best-Apple-MacBook-Laptops - Best 14inch Laptops: www.justjosh.tech/best-tech/Best-14inch-Laptop

[@jamesdutton9835]

The Framework laptops don't seem to appear on the justjosh web site.

[@that_rendle]

I’ve preordered one without the dedicated graphics, so I think I’ll keep it. Thanks for the detailed and balanced review.

[@rolanddenzel-authorcoach]

It's surprising that trackpad palm rejection can suck in 2024. My 2016 HP Spectre has it dialed in, but new laptops (like my Asus) keep coming out with jumping cursors because they can't tell your palm isn't your finger?

[@joshlove007]

So I think you are right about a back end dev making that software. That gui is built in python using the "pysimplegui" module. I can't believe I have seen a shipping product use that haha.

[@cameronbosch1213]

First, I want to preface this comment that I have massive respect for Josh and his team and all of the work they do, especially with hold OEMs accountable. However, Josh, I have watched LTT's review and that plus some update emails that Framework has sent out make me think that your unit may have been defective. I'm in batch 1, and I'll compare my unit to your review unit when it comes, but I do expect some things to be improved when the retail unit comes to me. And with 2024 bringing even more laptops with less upgradability (like soldered RAM) and with very few options that are good with good Linux support, I dont think there's any alternative for my use case. Sure, this laptop isn't perfect. Nothing is in life. But given that the alternative is to have a super outdated feeling Linux first laptop or have to install Linux on a Windows laptop and basically be on my own in terms of driver support (as I have been before), I'll gladly take this laptop, because as somebody who really feels strongly about right to repair and not using macOS or Windows, I literally don't have any other option for my use case. Again, I'm not blaming you or Taylor for reviewing what appears to be a defective unit and calling out said defects. I just think maybe there could be more to the story. And as I'm in batch 1, we'll soon know the truth about the retail units.

[@cameronbosch1213]

As an update, LTT, Digital Trends, and Phoronix all had generally good experiences with this laptop. As of this update, it seems both Just Josh and Sean Hollister both got less than stellar units. Could something happened during transit to their addresses or could they have gotten very early units while everybody else got closer to production units?

[@cameronbosch1213]

Update 2: NotebookcheckReviews had a positive review as well. That's 4 positive experience units, 2 defective ones.

[@The8BitPianist]

Have you heard of Tuxedo? If so, what do you think of their laptops?

[@cameronbosch1213]

@@The8BitPianist They're decent for people in the EU. But they're not really an option outside of the EU, as they're shipping fees are quite high outside of the EU, they're bascially just Clevo or Tongfang rebrands, and their keyboard layouts are pretty limited for ANSI keyboard users, as they lack that option. And System76 is just Clevo and uncompetitive with even Tuxedo.

[@The8BitPianist]

@@cameronbosch1213 Thanks for the fast reply!

[@prem3548]

This is the main problem right now. I feel like the starting price of $1400 would be acceptable if it came with basically everything but the dGPU module. Unforuntately, I can skip ram, ssd, os and still be at $2000 easily. Right now that it not acceptable.

[@fabyao]

I agree with your recommendation. Too many user experience sacrifices. Framework need to go back to the drawing board here.

[@matthewsallman1700]

I was really torn between the Lenovo Slim (Yoga) Pro 9I and the Framework 16. I finally bought the Lenovo last week and this review made me feel better about my decision. The only negative on the Slim Pro 9i is the battery life as I don't really game on my laptop. I have been using an old Toshiba that had to be plugged in all the time, so ANY battery life is a positive for me.

[@adinnugroho6544]

Framework seems bring the Old Laptop era back, when they were modular, fairly easy to disassemble and flexible This probably just make today's laptop from other brands kinda.... I don't know what can I say

[@chrispotterfan]

Was looking forward for that review. We don't need false hype but honesty. And that's what you delivered. Thank you :)

[@byte.raccoon]

thanks guys for the honest review. you are my favorite reviewers

[@zen1752]

Love the framework. Good and honest review. But for me, the sustainability, innovation and upgrading it are the mainstays for me.

[@JustJoshTech]

Then you should buy it for sure. Everyone's needs are a bit different

[@Dygear]

Those lag spikes at 11:00 mark are due to shader recompilation. They will rear the ugly head once there is a graphic driver upgrade as they need to be recompiled again.

[@adamorand88]

Hey for the palm rejection thing, you can center the trackpad under the keyboard even if it's off to the side (like when you have the keypad installed) or simply on its own, if that helps!

[@NilEoe]

Do you think that future versions of this laptop will improve on those issues, or have Framework locked themselves in by having to stick to a sub-optimal chassis and general form factor to follow their upgradability mission?

[@JustJoshTech]

I think there are several that can be addressed like the main board coil whine noise

[@Pro720HyperMaster720]

According to the Framework emails I have, they didn’t want to lock themselves because it’s no the same unfinished software than unfinished hardware, they in fact delay the laptop two times due issues of that level. So knowing that and their track record I don’t see why they can’t fix most of those things over the years. A harder mid plate to increase keyboard stability, in the 13 inch they end up releasing (even as a upgrade kit for the Intel 12th gen) a top cover replacement to reinforce the lid. They can release better speakers and webcam in the future as well as better displays that use more real state if they want (fingers cross for a glossy touchscreen high refresh rate, they have the pins to support touchscreens). And stronger CPUs and GPUs, I’m going to buy one, but to me the current selection of CPU + GPU was kind of meh, but they don’t have the capacity to release a ton of options from the start, that’s a lot of money + plus they had help of an AMD partnership, so they probably tried to point a middle point that is enough for most people, but they did the groundwork to enable for example a 16 core future ryzen with a 5090 laptop GPU and/or an equivalent AMD GPU, they have the headroom, the most laptops GPU can consume currently is 150W (strongest 4090 laptop) their current 7700S uses 100W, probably they can add 150W options for the users that they really want it at the expense of using the then available 240W USB-C chargers. So I would say they managed to accomplish it good enough to have a brilliant future that probably could afford from the start

[@doufmech4323]

The part about the swappable ports is so useful. I often need ethernet with my laptop, so having swappable ports is amazing, as it is very common for ethernet ports to break

[@cameronbosch1213]

13:45 I'm pretty sure that has soldered RAM. Not really comparable in that regard.

[@qq_02]

Thank you for calling out that 1600p is not enough for 16" screens. This is a big bother with modern laptops. We had 4K 15.6" laptops five years ago, and then they disappeared. They were incredibly good on the eyes, though backlight bleed and uniformity were normal issues.

[@no10basti]

A very good review! As far as I know, the prices for upgrade kits with new chip generations that frameworks sells, are cheaper then buying a new one. So the higher price might be justified when comparing it over two generations time. Two "normal" Laptops are probably more expensive then one Framework + upgrades. Just a little change of perspective.

[@andyH_England]

Upgrading from Gen 11 to Gen 13, which is not current, is £1050 for the motherboard alone without buying the latest wifi, RAM, and SSD! It really is poor value. But if modularity is more critical than value then the compromise is for you to make.

[@MrBroady02]

It's the repairs for me. With kids and school needs we'll end up with 4-5 laptops in our house. No more scrolling eBay and doing janky repairs because something stopped working or was broken.

[@tuanld91]

@@andyH_England I hope Framework will get better quote from hardware manufacturers one they get bigger, which would translate into price reduction. At least the motherboard is made to be reusable. That could count as some cost recouped for many.

[@andyH_England]

@@tuanld91 If you upgrade every three years, then who will be willing to pay for a secondhand proprietary motherboard that is three years or more old? Those that have a Framework will already have an aged device. My main issue is that only a tiny niche group is willing to pay these prices for upgradeability. Once Framework has exhausted them, it will have diminishing sales returns. The business model where fans buy one chassis for life seems risky and has a short half-life to survive in an ultra-competitive market.

[@heroninja1125]

@@andyH_England I think it makes more sense in the larger form factors. The framework 16 is actually really good for what it is, and being able to upgrade graphics and having a large modular input deck are big selling points alone. Not to mention the swappable ports or easy to upgrade storage/memory/wifi. And easy availability for new batteries, which are also easy to replace.

[@cold_carmel]

I think the Legion Slim 7 is no longer available from Lenovo according to their website :( Do you recommend buying a Slim 7 second hand, getting the Slim 7i, or are you optimistic about the gen 9 laptops and we should wait till then?

[@cameronbosch1213]

I'm not optimistic about 2024 laptops. I'd try to get one second hand.

As usual amazing work Josh... but you said at the end "heat and fan noise is NO macbook" period... been suffering fan noise with windows / linux laptop for the last 2-3 years trying to find the ideal NOT macbook model but honestly... when you work with a laptop which is deadly silent you can't go back to even a whisper noise...

[@JustJoshTech]

Yep its difficult. The new HP Spectre 14 for 2024 is pretty good with heat and fan noise. But haven't tried it with Linux, only Windows. Video out next week. Thanks for the nice comment

[@karansingh1154]

I would like to see an external gpu enclosure that uses the framework gpu socket and a hdmi/displayport input port.

[@krane15]

That would be perfect if it could dock with an external GPU. Speaking of DisplayPort, its up to DP 2.1, but no hardware manufacture supports that even after 3 years. The majority of laptop (as well as other hardware) are still using DP 1.4 for a decade ago.

[@stancooper5436]

Just got mine (without discrete GPU). Wanted to love it but it was uncomfortably warm on the lap at idle (2% CPU) and burning hot on the lap (70C on the sensors) watching youtube at 5-10% CPU. Totally unusable for me.

[@DN-dz3cr]

indeed its a very cool machine but it has one major flaw: availability.

[@defnotatroll]

That's the AMD experience for ya

[@Escile]

You're such a blessing to us the viewers. If there is only ONE tech channel i have to subscribe to, it's yours. Honest and reliable. Thank you so much.

[@JustJoshTech]

Glad we could deliver :) This review was seriously a bit nuts. We spent so many hours on it!

[@Lukehmcc]

I do wonder why your battery test puts it so much worse off than both LTT & Notebookcheck. This could be something to look into. Great video though! Love the idea of the product!

[@tipturkey1283]

unfortunately, as expected after seeing the power limit when announced, the dgpu is extremely lackluster in this price segment, until they can offer a module with about double the power limit, its not particularly compelling

[@cameronbosch1213]

There's not much they can do because AMD basically has no more options in the S series atm.

[@858Markus]

I´m going to order one for my birthday later this year. The quirks should be ironed out by the time, maybe some new components will be available etc. This is a dream come true. I use gaming laptops for my work, because they are cheaper than professional laptops, and perform their job admirably. My only issue is the childish gaming RGB funny design. Looks ridiculous at a meeting. But being able to upgrade every component is what I always wanted. If Framework won´t go bankrupt that is... Than it will end one day as a tech curiosity in my glass showcase. But what a beauty of an utilitarian design, but still esthetical.

[@dontmindme8709]

Really good review! I'm especially impressed that you even went through the software too, including using Linux. I have my eyes on Framework for the day I need a new laptop. Hopefully they support even more keyboard layouts by then!

[@markghanz7135]

Waiting for their Core Ultra 200H "Arrowlake" iteration.

[@MrBroady02]

Im a programmer and i always downecale high res displays. Unless monitors are big enough, the interface just becomes so small. For quick fixes on the go, sure, but otherwise im connecting to monitors anyway.

[@AnoNym-zi5ty]

Good video. A lot of reviewers skip over the fact that this laptop is ridiculously expensive way too fast. For a motherboard upgrade you can buy a whole new laptop that has comparable specs. And don't cry me a river about the environment. Just because you make the framework CEO rich, we won't stop the climate change one bit.

[@markghanz7135]

If somebody sneaks into Clevo or Tongfang and inject Framework 16's CAD files into their production line and produce lots and lots of parts, I am sure the Framework 16 will be at least 1/3 cheaper than it is now. It's just economics of scale. If Framework is as popular as Lenovo then this laptop will definitely be cheap.

[@markghanz7135]

If they are really THAT popular even NVIDIA will consider removing their GPU's restrictions to make it suitable for their replaceable design. Right now I think Framework have done their best to lower the Framework 16's price, especially considering how much de-buffs it has: keyboard, input module, rp2040, a full metal chassis designed from ground up, expansion cards, gpu expansion module, RX 7700S, 240W PD, cooling, special motherboard design, etc. These leads to an unreasonable product from business prospective that no big players will consider, because so much stuff has to be done from scratch. And the largest debuff is the small-ness of Framework itself. With all those burden they still managed to price the laptop cheaper than Lenovo's thinkpad Z16, for example. I won't buy it but I sincerely admire their effort.

[@philave5482]

Thank you for your insanely detailed review!) Incredibly informative!

[@TheBangTail]

I'd rather buy the Framework 16 once than the Lenovo Slim 7 twice. Lenovo laptops just break and die way too easily. I have purchased two lenovo laptops in the past 4 years, one a legion, and the other the ideapad 5 (the same one that Josh recommended!) Both suffered from broken hinges and other problems. The legion broke within days, and even after an EXPENSIVE repair was fully dead anyway in 13 months. The Ideapad 5 is still going, and I like it a lot for the $500 price, but it is literally held together with JB weld and is literally missing chunks from the case.

[@QuantaSolace]

If they could make this as solid as a MacBook Pro while still making it easy to swap out parts would make me get this in a heartbeat. I love my MacBooks but not the prices.

[@ChickenFriedCorgi]

Cueious what bags can hold the laptop with gpu. My legion 7 16 already barely fits in my large backpacks laptop slot. Guess ones targeting 17 inch laptops

[@Winko.]

Can someone Tell me how good the Acer Swift Go 14/16 i7 16 GB for a stundent in Software developing is?

[@ericneo2]

I don't understand why companies put low quality speakers on a laptop. Wouldn't it just be better for everyone if they didn't put any speakers in? They could use that space for a bigger battery in 13/14" devices or an additional M.2 slot.

[@cameronbosch1213]

That's literally all Windows laptops. They tried to fit more M.2 slots but they had no more room.

[@SuperRomanHoliday]

If you buy this, when Framework update it, you are going to feel very fed up. This is NOT a finished product.

[@remixisthis]

Respect the honest review!

[@FoxxFire]

I love the idea of this laptop and am absolutely happy it exists. I also know that many people will be drawn to it due to its unique flexibility, repairability and upgradeability. So, while it's not the laptop for me, and I can make a pretty good argument that it is significantly compromised for the price, I won't hate on it. I respect the small (but growing) group of people behind the company; I respect the innovation; I respect the difficulty a small company faces while trying to compete in such a competitive segment of the market. So hell, if my kid some day asks for one, although I'll be disappointed she's not asking for a Mac :), I will feel comfortable supporting this type of company and gladly make the purchase.

[@riazalmaroof]

Definately does not appear to be production ready model. Dated design with chonky form factor, added with heating issues, avg performance and that outrageous price ......LOL, glad I went with Legion Slim 7 Amd @ 1199 USD (7840HS + 4060).

[@cameronbosch1213]

Because this wasn't a final unit. It was ALMOST a final unit.

[@PKperformanceEU]

yeah thats a fantastic laptop, i wish i got that exact model. I went with a ux6404

[@cameronbosch1213]

It is a decent laptop, but it doesn't seem to be available anymore.

[@bryans8656]

I had the exact same conclusion before you got to yours: Too many usability issues to tempt me to abandon my current laptop (it's only issue is a complete lack of upgradeability).

[@cameronbosch1213]

What a contradictory comment. 🤦‍♂️

[@bryans8656]

@@cameronbosch1213 Not really. I have an excellent display, good speakers, etc., but I can't upgrade the internals because it's a MacBook Pro. I enjoyed upgrading the old MBPs but they didn't have the same quality as the M series devices.

[@cameronbosch1213]

​@@bryans8656 The problem with Macs is that they still have major issues. For example, if you try to repair a MacBook Pro's screen, it outputs artifacts unless it is paired by Apple. That's BS and should be outlawed.

[@bryans8656]

@@cameronbosch1213 I didn't have that problem with the Intel MBPs so it must be with the M series laptops. Regardless, I knew about the lack of upgradeability going in, we all make our personal choices and that's as it should be.

[@cameronbosch1213]

@@bryans8656 Still, monopolies are never good, and having the right to repair your own devices without paying extortionist fees is important.

[@krane15]

The Framwork is the greatest single innovation in laptop history. I really want to see them fix those issues and succeed. Just like Tesla. @1:07 The only color chassis they need is red. It also needs to support Display Port 2.1

[@negri2811]

When it comes to the clickiness of the keyboard that's not a disadvantage. It's your personal preference, not everyone is chasing butterflies on fields with ASMR uselessness. It's more practical and does not attract attention to you when using, in a library let's say, you don't really want to bother other people around you. Doing that in public with a clickety keyboard is like trying to say hey everyone uuh look at mee I got a laptop uuh I type fast uuh.

[@xWood4000]

I'm an IT student, why would I need to read small text? I can set the font larger or zoom in. I can anyway see enough of the code at a time

[@Ninja_Samurai-dd3kq]

no touch and stylus support?

[@brianclarke8503]

Hey Josh, great review as usual! I'm not sure I see the appeal of this product. It seems really lackluster compared to the alternatives out there. Unless your main desire is the upgradability of this product, there are certainly better options out there.

[@MrEdmie]

Isn't this GPU module a bit of a limitation by itself? The fans are on each side. If you want a really powerful GPU, manifacturers have to place the fans right over the CPU and GPU to cool them down nowadays. Could it mean this laptop would never be able to have anything stronger than this AMD GPU they have (4060 equivalent)?

[@MrAltairantares]

Wish the gaming portion of the review was a bit more than the proforma single random test you did. The graphics card is pretty unknown so going beyond anecdote is helpful. Gaming performance can vary a ton game to game between different graphics cards.

[@powderypastor1242]

I admit that I'm not convinced by the Framework 16 and its intended use case. I find that for the same price, I'm much better served by the AMD Framework 13 (which is amazing) for portability, and a desktop for gaming or working at home.

[@georgeh6856]

The price issues are rubbish. If I want to upgrade the RAM in my Framework, I buy more RAM and pop it in. If I want a bigger SSD in it, I buy a bigger SSD, pop it in, and reinstall/transfer the data from my old SSD. If the screen or anything else breaks, I order the replacement part and fix it myself. If I want a newer, faster CPU when it comes out, I order a new motherboard and swap it in myself. Try doing that with a Macbook. You cannot. Over the long term, total cost of ownership with a Framework will be much cheaper. Update: To the trolls who are slamming me, you bring up very specific cases to try to counter my arguments. That is called cherry-picking. Yes, someone could buy an HP Elitebook or they could keep their Macbook for 8 to 10 years. That does not counter my arguments that Framework has a lower total cost of ownership over the years for most people than most other laptops of its class. Buy whatever you want. But stop cherry-picking. That is dishonest.

[@meal_team_six]

Outside the cpu upgrade, you can do all that on an Elitebook and you will get a better more premium machine at a much lower price point. In fact, I believe Linus Tech Tips put out a video on the high repairability/upgradeability of HP Elitebooks.

[@georgeh6856]

@@meal_team_six Yes, but that does not negate the fact that Framework potentially has a lower cost of ownership over time than most other laptops, like the Macbook. Also, I never had to pay a Windows tax on my Framework. I think HP still requires that, at least for purchases of HP computers in the USA. The only other laptops I know that do not charge the Windows tax are Macbooks, which are not repairable or upgradable, or low-end Chromebooks.

[@Whomecouldntb3]

@@georgeh6856if a MacBook last you 8 to 10 years like the 2013 MacBook Pro. Would the cost of ownership really be cheaper if you are constantly upgrading parts on a framework. You would be constantly increasing your cost of ownership, no?

[@georgeh6856]

@@Whomecouldntb3 That is one particular case. I would guess that most people replace their Macbooks far sooner than 8 to 10 years. But you go ahead. Buy your Macbook with standard 8G of nonreplaceable RAM, and be very happy with it for the rest of your life. No one is stopping you.

[@andyH_England]

When you look at the price of new motherboards, your idealistic take falls apart as it is £1050 in the UK for a 13 Gen i7. It is not even the current Intel chipset. In 2-3 years, when you are likely to upgrade, I expect it will be much more, based on how these are increasing in price. That is before you spend £600 on a new GPU and £300-500 on the latest fast RAM and SSDs. Probably a new battery and display, and your upgrades are nearing £2000! It makes no sense to me. But I understand that some people are caught up with the last-century modularity of laptops or want to play around with upgrades. For most of us, we simply want a reliable work machine that is value, and has excellent battery life, thermals, and efficiency, and in 2024, we expect few compromises.

[@GregMadman]

The point to reach for framework is selling their laptops for 200 or 300 dollars more than the other laptop brands... But for the moment, it is almost twice the price... 😅