The Ridiculous Trick for No Punctures Ever

science
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#cycling #bikes #bicycle

[@y2kenb]

if you don't ride you won't puncture #science

[@Cade_Media]

Coach Ken has spoken.

[@notpablo8369]

@@Cade_Media gatorskin sprinter tubulars + gatorskin clincher 😏😏😏

[@edmundblackaddercoc8522]

That'll do it lol

[@christopherprice-hq5sy]

Preach it! Omg!

[@abedfo88]

I just leave my bike in the garage and watch youtube videos all day, i never puncture.

[@atmywitsend1984]

You will be getting a spare tyre though.....? Just not the type you can put on your wheel.

[@Cade_Media]

you're on to something here...

[@global_nomad.]

does leaking hot air count as a puncture?? 😆

[@truthseeker8483]

@@atmywitsend1984 😀

[@jaycarneygiants]

😁😆😅🤣😂

[@yurimow]

you might just as well use schwalbe marathon plus. Weigh as if they were made from solid tungsten, rolling resistance of a tractor tyre and absolutely unpuncturable... basically the same, but less hassle.

[@wololo4206]

Yeh I use these, 2000miles with no punctures, gotta change them over soon though! :)

[@michaelburger1591]

Been running the marathon plus on three different bikes over four years and never had a puncture

[@lemonshire1]

how much more do they weigh than alternatives? my bike came with them and i haven't bothered to change them yet, only was considering it since they barely have any grip for off-road

[@Froodulous]

@@lemonshire1 about 900 grams per tyre vs. like 250 grams per tyre for something like conti gp 5000s

[@lemonshire1]

@@Froodulous jesus christ, no wonder i never get punctures. those are gonna need changing

[@bertchalmers]

I normally 'overtube' for winter commutes. 35-45mm gravel 700 tube inside 28 or 30mm tyres. The tube doesn't expand to anywhere near its design stretch so it's wall thickness is thicker. Worked all last year and during the TPT FKT attempt last year

[@alextorresphoto]

Neat trick! Might be better than buying those heavy thicker tubes.

[@sidmarx7276]

I tried slicing the valve off a blown inner tube and packing it between the rear tire and tube as a puncture barrier. The tube as liner is softer than a tuffy, i.e., less likely to cut the tube with its sharp edge.

[@truthseeker8483]

Yes I have just tried this trick and so far works very well!!

[@anserrizvi3304]

Even running a 28-35mm tube inside a 28mm tyre works really well! I had multiple cuts in the tyre and even then the tube did not puncture. 💪🏼

[@dawidp4351]

@@anserrizvi3304 I am not sure how it works? bigger innertube for size up tyres has thicker walls?

[@andreluissilva869]

In Brazil, we do something similar. We use a smaller and old tire, cut its bead, and install it as a puncture protection tape between the main tire and the tube.

[@sidmarx7276]

How do you stop the cut edges' friction from cutting the tube?

[@andreluissilva869]

@@sidmarx7276 Sand than.

[@TRiX_ONE]

... and there in Europe we are using TPU inserts ... 😊😆

[@davidburgess741]

@@sidmarx7276 Use heavy duty tube.

[@AKAKiddo]

I do this in the US also. No sanding, no problems.

[@brianwright9514]

I agree, Francis, this is a stupid idea. Just run wide, tubeless tires with a lot of sealant and low pressure. That'll eliminate almost all punctures.

[@brianwright9514]

@OGK KID it doesn't happen often... But carrying tire plugs will take care of anything large enough not to seal. If plugs don't work, you were going to have a bad day no matter what.

[@marcross2503]

@@brianwright9514 this is gospel right here!

[@simonalexandercritchley439]

Back in the day there were 18x700 tubs doubt if you could find now though. Training tubs were the thing,then. Cheap & cheerful but heavy & slower. Nowadays a lot of pros are on tubeless. Provided tolerances and standards are improved they are the future.Thanks for the entertainment.

[@skooterbrah]

I live in the Mojave Desert, and goat heads are EVERYWHERE! I used to get flats on every single ride! Then I switched to a tire with a Kevlar layer, and tubes with Slime. I have not had a single puncture in over three years. Yes, it does weigh a bit more, but it is worth it!

[@ozzie444]

Tannus liners and FlatOut.......That's what I use in my Himiway Cruiser.....watch this....kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4mTqmBodth6iM0

[@gethinap]

I demand more of Francis' stupid ideas as it was entertaining as hell :)

[@MB-rn6gh]

back when i rode bmx we would use car seat belts as liners between tire and tube.. worked amazing

[@MrJasonodonnell]

Interesting.....

[@chairman823]

Robert Millar used to do just this for winter training. No punctures and when he went back the normal set up he said it was like he was flying.

[@TheASMRCyclist]

Your struggles with putting that tub inside the clincher reminds me of my struggles with a regular inner tube and clincher!

[@walterdibartolomeo3157]

Am enjoying your channel. Thanks for the videos. As for double tires, as a youth (1970’s era) I would do exactly that. Take an older tire, remove the bead and then put it inside a full tire. Worked wonders. My buddies could never figure out why I never had a flat tire! I don’t have any science to prove it, but there it is! Keep experimenting and sharing. And stay safe!

[@clacclackerson3678]

I put solid tyres (Tannus) on my belt-drive bike one week ago. I've done about 400km on them so far. They ride slightly harsher than a fully-pumped 28mm tyre and are slightly slower. I'm still a bit ginger on corners, haven't stretched the friendship yet. That said, I wish I'd done it years ago. It's a game changer for me. I'm putting solids on at least one other of my (eight) bikes.

[@davidgrieve78]

Bmxers used to run double tyres back in the day, trim the bead off the inside tyre so it just acts as a liner.

[@timdiamond1056]

Used to do this on my winter commuting bike. If I remember, a 23 or 25mm Continental GP fitted inside a 32 or 35mm Top Touring.

[@cpt.slackbladder3187]

Yep, Worn out v monster inside a fresh v-monster.

[@heidijarvis777]

Well after I commented on your last video about how I don’t suffer with punctures on my road bike with tubeless that scuppered it as I got one today. Few quick spins of the wheel and it sealed! Got home ok with hardly any loss of pressure

[@BadTanLines]

I just got off the ohhh be with the Redbull Legal Team and they've asked me to ask you to @4:40 "Stop holding your Redbull like that! You're not sponsored and we can't sponsor you when you make our product look so weird. Please hold it like a normal person and we can discuss business dealings in the future. Cheers."

[@jeffbradburn3800]

Try using Mr Tuffy Tire liners. Been using them with great success. I use the reg ones but they do have light weight versions. The weight penalty is very minimal. Also I ride in the Sonoran desert and flats are typically guaranteed but not with these.

[@benbockting7511]

Ex pro Bad huff did something similar He would do a second tire with the head cut off and a thorn proof tube inside of it. Another unique tire setup Tom Brinker(tandem track sprinter) would put water in his tubes for extra resistance

[@antonpeterson1245]

Not heard of this trick but my dad used to line the tyre with an old inner tube. It works and for sure doesn't have as much rolling resistance as this.

[@karlkajomomoritz2816]

I use spent inter tube as a extra layer between tire & new Tube & not a weight weenie.

[@callam35]

What we used to do on dirt BMX's, was cut the walls/clincher off an old slick and just nest that inside the other - prob solve the size issue

[@luisergio34]

used to do the same when I was a kid. money was always short for patches or tubes :)

[@johnbowman83]

+ 1 for this old Bmx method - worked a treat before we worried about weight!

[@rantonwithanton]

we used to do this with BMX's back in South Africa, but we would cut the inner tyre to make it sit inside the outer tyre. You then had a strange crinkled effect on the wall. never got punctures and in the old days there was less time spent fixing punctures

[@grahambonner508]

I have done this some years ago using two normal (tubed tyres) for the inner tyre, I cut off the steel beading, so I had 1 inner tube followed by one tyre with no bead sitting inside a normal tyre. Was hard to put on, tyre width was 1.75" mountain bike wheel. Was quite heavy, I got no punctures but later replaced the tyres with Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres, now my choice tyre for large/wide wheels. A side note, looks like you could use a tyre glider to get those on and off. I bought one some months ago - so easy.

[@kidkarbon4775]

In the winter I run cloth rim tape between the tube and tyre, this works well for puncture protection.

[@CyclingLifePT]

I've heard this ideia in other places too, but the best option for me is still to buy some kevlar reinforced tires (such as the Hutchinson Fusion 5 All Season that you were using) or, if you cannot find a tire with that but you still want to ride it, buy some inner inserts from Vittoria for example: It wont prevent you from puncturing, but it will certainly take you home or somewhere safer where you can patch the tube.

[@christopherhood9241]

i'm sure I've got some wooden wheels from a cart with metal rims kicking about ..... I'll send the over for you :)

[@alextorresphoto]

This is one of those, do as i say, not as i do moments. LOL. So many better options now with tubeless, tire liners and sealants and Schwalbe marathon tires. This was fun I'm sure tho. You should do some speed test LOL. I want to see the speed differences. To make it more exagerated, do it on the ebay bike. LOLOL.

[@gs78798]

The amount of friction between the two tyres should be massive. I assume that this setup has more rolling resistance than one tyre with really, really good puncture protection. :-) Not even speaking about tubeless, but for a normal clincher setup: an inner TUBE expands smoothly to the walls of the tyre and kind of "strengthens" the tyre from the inside. With two tyres: As the inner TYRE doesn't really expand to the outer tyre and there is probably always a gap between the two tyres, the outer tyre should always deflect more - even on smooth surfaces. And while doing so it additionally rubs against the inner tyre. But of course I have no data to back this up. :-D

[@tonyrichardson2637]

your right , the inner tyre will move . just carry a puncture repair kit or spare tube. job done.

[@brianbecker1468]

Vittoria make a better option called airliner, just installed them

[@jst8051]

+ 1 for tire liners. Especially for winter or commuter bike, if you want to use tubes. They’re made of plastic, so more durable and puncture proof than rubber. Have had just 1 puncture through that setup in about 5-7 years. In terms of riding - they feel slower, but not by that much. There is a bit of strange sensation with them when the wheels are rolling, as its essentially a strip of plastic with overlapping ends, which then create a bit of a bump at the overlap.

[@fuzzylogic1887]

Epic product placement 😂

[@happyharry7331]

I use a fairly standard setup for road riding of continental hardshell gator skin 25mm folding clinchers during the winter months I do run them on lower pressures as they are quite a thick tyre particularly the side walls I weigh 74 kilos and run them about 70psi I only ride on the road but I ride in the new forest area which in winter has quite a lot of grit washed onto the road. I average about 4000 miles of winter riding so I have done two winter seasons with the same set of tyres and zero punctures. What I think helps is after every ride I flip the bike onto a bit of carpet and wipe the tyres down, I then check for any flint with a light and get any flints etc out with a small screwdriver. Takes about five minutes, I think the puncture you get on one ride is a flint you picked up on the previous ride. As Barry Hoban once remarked when Mark Cavendish was going through a period of having a lot of punctures. "you want to look where you are riding"

[@philipp-christopherdeeke2210]

Came here for the bikefit stuff, stayed for the stupid things 🤣Great work, please don't stop.

[@sventice]

Very fun to watch. I will not ever be doing this. Might as well fill a couple of tubeless tyres with wet cement.

[@englishcyclist]

Get a TyreGlider and be amazed when taking off tyres and putting them back on.

[@chrikim67]

We used to do it back in the day, when I was racing (in Denmark) and you couldn't get tire inserts. Just cut off the bead and it works like a charm. No punctures and and more training due to the extra rolling resistance

[@robertheard01]

I've wondered whether running gorilla tape (or similar) around the inside of the tyre where would provide a good second skin to help punctures? Work for tubeless and clincher.

[@thomasleroyer6326]

I tried to put some tape to continue to use my tire after a big puncture once. Some kilometers after I got my inner tube leaking as chaffed by the tape, took me some time to figure out why 😅

[@ginti4725]

Yeh, i done this years ago. Using two clincher puncture proof tyres, but I cut off the beed and a small amount of the tyre wall on the inner tyre, so the outer tyre would grip the rim better, then stuck a tube in. Worked a treat, heavy as hell, but what don't kill you makes you stronger.

[@Alchas65]

Have you tried tubeless with one of those foam inserts? I'm curious to see how a bike rides if there is a serious gash in the tyre.

[@Cade_Media]

Nope, I'll try and get hold of one for a video 👍

[@thecrowfliescrooked]

What gets me about all this tire puncturing stuff is I don't believe for a second that with our current level of technologies and development we can't make either a tire or an inner tube that is impenetrable. I just don't believe it. PS just love that American flag 🤣

[@xgon7645]

Its almost impossible to get punctures with something like Schwalbe Marathon tires. The downside is that they are just heavy af and thus feel completely different to something like a GP5000

[@thecrowfliescrooked]

@@xgon7645 yep I've experienced those too and I guess if you're not too worried about the weight savings and all that jazz it's very cool. But like I said I'm sure there are compounds and technologies out there that can make a nearly impenetrable tire or tube. I paid double everything to be able to just run one tire for years.

[@adrianramos2689]

You should try the Tannus solid tires.

[@lozviv1180]

Best trick for me is just another innertube cut/split around the inner diameter, the valve removed and line the tyre with it. Then add the inner tube. Works a treat no punctures for years, and pretty light compared to another tyre. Enjoy all these vids.

[@tonyrichardson2637]

why dont they make thicker tubes.

[@steezymtb5876]

And here I was, frustrated with my new bike having tyres that just keep getting punctured all the god damn time. Almost hopeless, saw the title of this video and a slight smile rose to my face. Clicked on the video and you are putting a tyre inside of a tyre. Gee, thanks. What a great solution to my problem 😂 Interesting idea for sure, can definitely see that being effective against punctures, but maybe not what I'm looking into trying, would love to ride for longer than three miles 🤣

[@echtogammut]

I used to have a big issue with goat heads (Acanthospermum hispidum) ruining long rides ... I once had 5 flats in one ride. Tire liners (Mr. Tuffy) fixed that, albeit at the cost of some road feel and a bit added weight. They won't stop side punctures, but everything short of a drill bit is kept out.

[@harbourwoodlandvisitor2445]

when you burn your hand run a cold tap and place your hand in the stream of water. the water seems to take the sting away. holding your hand on a ice doesn't seem to work. i know i tried it myself and the water works extremely well.

[@wturber]

I did something similar on my commuter ebike. My scheme was an inner tube, a puncture proof strip, an older tire of the same size as the mounted outer clincher that has the beads cut off, and then the outer clincher. I did this because rear punctures seemed 2-3 time more common than front ones. It hasn't punctured yet after 3-4 thousand miles or more. I lost track. These were 26x2.0 or similar.

[@richardharding9385]

I usually do this on a rear wheel to get some more miles from a well worn tyre.

[@wturber]

@@richardharding9385 I put the old tire on the inside and the new on the outside. So the old one never actually wears out - guess. I've not changed it yet but have changed the outside tire once.

[@michaelmahon8896]

I used to do the same thing years ago,use an old 23 mm ( cut the beadwire off,) inside a 25 mm outer, with a tube, great for winter use

[@tomrachellesfirstdance7843]

I did this on my bmx back in the day. Get a older tyre cut the bead off then put it inside another tyre, worked a treat never had a flat was brilliant

[@spooglemoon8]

Tyne bridge Kittiwakes in the background nice!!

[@migzl8919]

It feels horrible, I did something similar with my cruiser bike, it felt super rough and made a single tire feel like you are riding on clouds, it definitely reduced flats tremendously however, I don’t think it was worth it, I did manage a flat and then had to remove 2 tires then fix the flat and checked the tires and found I had numerous thorns etc in the top tire, I undid it and never tried it again

[@julianhawker7672]

Used to do similar as a kid on our homemade off road bikes (Before MTB's made it across the pond) and it works: Cut the beads off a bald road tyre, fit this inside a normal tyre with a tube. Homemade tanus armour, 35 yrs before they invented it....... I honestly don't remember how it rode TBH but it was bullet proof and all my mates soon followed suit and used it.

[@Sean-vz7zw]

Have you tried using a Tyre Glider tool to get the tyre on and off

[@casualcarl8460]

Great tool!

[@mstrasser]

Interesting. I've been using vittoria airliners in both my Aeroad and 02 VAM for a year and it works great. Sealants have fixed any hole and that reassurance of the airliner is nice. Was a massive pain to install though.

[@Tricyklist]

Schwalbe Durano Plus. I have been riding them for years. They put an end to punctures.

[@justinbouchard]

I run sealant in my tubes. I also take take super glue with me on rides because you can glue together tires if they get a bit slit. Saved me when I rode over a piece of glass one day that I didn't see.

[@marccarter1350]

We use to call it a double boot. Works great. we had to trim the metal ring off the wheel years ago. I use a heavy puncher proof marathon plus for winter now. There a kilo a piece. But no flats

[@johndef5075]

Was thumbing through a 2001 Mountain Bike Action mag. Came across a review of Kenda Kno Flatsss system which is basically what you did here! 3 stars out of 5 for rating😅

[@truthseeker8483]

I used to put a clincher inside a clincher back in the 1980's because I had an engine mounted on the back with a roller that would wear out the rear tire fast.😀

[@avocette]

Anecdotally, using inner tubes that are 1.25x bigger than your tire (if the tube has a size range, refer to the smallest limit) helps mitigate punctures. I don't know why for sure but it might have something to do with the tube stretching less and not becoming thinner.

[@emyrjones3027]

Yeah 😂😂😂, I did that, but I cut the rim's off an old 25mm tyre and put it in a 28mm tyre , It worked OK, but as you say it felt sluggish, 🤣😂🤣 Love your program, keep it up 🤘🤘🤘

[@sidmarx7276]

I tried slicing the valve off a blown inner tube and packing it between the rear tire and tube as a puncture barrier. The tube as liner is softer than a tuffy, i.e., less likely to cut the tube with its sharp edge.

[@markadams8041]

I have to shout out to the old school Wolber Invulnerable. I was a bike courier and racer in the eighties. I did wear them down to the steel being visible.

[@smokeydrummond6283]

We use to do a similar thing to that on our Raleigh burners in the 80's. We cut the beeds off an old tyre and put it inside the new one with the inner tube. Rock hard ride though. 😂😂😂

[@troycollett8540]

You should try those foam liners

[@ARJWright]

1/3 thru the video and having a relapse of putting on my WTB ByWays with Tannus Armour a few months ago… was hard as all crap. Took to LBS, took them four people and an hour… I’m going back to see how/if you got it

[@TribusMontibus]

The idea isn’t exactly new. Back in the eighties (when I raced as a junior) we already had a tough ribbon called “Mr Tuffy” which we put on top of the inner tube. It would stop anything, short of a full size nail. That did happen to me once, but that nail even punctured the rim.

[@kaseycarpenter73]

I've run tannus armour inserts inside Serfas Drifters for over 8k miles, with a tube full of sealant - zero punctures. Yes they are slow, but they are 650b x 50s anyways, so, just a more bulletproof Cadillac now :)

[@justinhumphreys5230]

fund video - on a serious note I would welcome a video on bike maintenance - the best and most straight forward way to change a tyre on carbon rims with tubes - thanks for considering keep up the great work

[@saxophobe]

Sounds exactly like riding Gatorskins! I could have ridden over broken glass and been totally fine, but they rode very slow.

[@ruan13o]

If you're worried about punctures why not just get some tires like the Schwalbe Marathon or Marathon+? I use just the normal Marathons and they haven't punctured for over 2 years now even though I have seen some pretty nasty glass and stones get embedded into them after finishing some rides.

[@syiridium703]

I've got a slightly less ridiculous (albeit also less hilarious) tip for punctureless riding: Conti Gator Hardshell. It is a little less resilient than Schwalbe Marathon (mentioned elsewhere) but much faster and lighter. With Marathon I had no punctures ever, Conti is approx 3k km between punctures (but I am also 100kg rider commuting year round and doing gravel on them, so for normal riding, it might be better)

[@davidburgess741]

Bontrager Hardshell Lite seems even tougher!

[@robstanley7247]

I was puncture free for 40yrs.. and then I started to ride a bike!! No longer puncture free #weird

[@ashwayn]

With my 2 mountain bikes I put a squirt of Holts tier seal in the innertube ok for ages

[@JibbaJabber]

Just get some of those new 3D printed tyres from Hutchinson and Pirelli. These have numerous separate air compartments, so if you do get a flat it will naturally be self contained. It works a bit like the compartmentalisation used in the good old Olympic-class ocean liners. Sorted:)

[@frits8986]

Didn’t even know that exists, sounds cool

[@SuperDiddzz]

If at first you don't succeed .................Give up!!!!!!! Cheers for upload Francis.

[@NewPolishScientist]

Rolling resistance of the tank btw. Try tanus or other airless tyres

[@kandani5935]

Schwalbe Durano Plus. Bombproof and ok rolling resistance.

[@dangrigore.]

I don't know how roads are there, but in Romania i just use the cheap Schwalbe Lugano kevlar guard 25c and no puncture in 4000 km, on my citybike -Schwalbe Marathon 32c, those are tougher

[@ap5194]

The last 4 punctures I've had are from the inside of the wheel. A small burr or the rim tape has somehow shifted. So frustrating

[@sidmarx7276]

The same wheel repeatedly? Same place on the wheel?

[@zodgzod]

That made my struggle to get some new GP5000S TRs on this Friday (during which I fired a tyre lever into my eye) seem almost easy!

[@garthgordon9054]

I use two inner tubes instead of two tires. Not as slow.

[@jksjksjks85]

Just get Conti Gatorskin tires and pump them up to avoid pinch flats. It will cost you some watts in rolling resistance but so does the tub in tire nonsense.

[@PauloSerra]

yeah... nice to watch on video, but at today's time probably not the best idea. I do agree that it is "harder" to puncture, but not impossible as a sharp nail can still go through both tires (harder, but still possible) and that would leave you stranded on the side of the road. There are better options in tire armour strips, foam inserts and tubeless sealant that can reduce risk of puncturing even further (and still be safe and enjoyable to ride).

[@hillkillr]

You're trying to solve a problem that's already been solved. Just run Slime in your tube, or if you're tubeless, make sure you have enough sealant. You mentioned solid tires. Those have the potential to ruin your rim. Air filled (pneumatic) tires spread the pressure of bumps onto the entire rim, solid tires transfer the pressure of each bump directly into the rim.

[@lazylonewolf]

Double innertube (with the outer innertube acting as puncture tape) might be a happy medium between this and using a thicker innertube.

[@cadaver1ne635]

Ive seen Nicky Terpstra do this with 2 clinchers, but he cuts of the metal beads on the side of one tire

[@GMSlash]

It seems like it isn't really worth the hassle. Why not just run puncture resistant tape or tyre inserts? The rolling resistance would be better and you'd still be able to use your fingers the day after installing it.... 😅

[@ashwayn]

I tried that was ok till a long nail? went through both and was in a snow storm hands so cold I had to chuck the inner tyre to get outer back on rim

[@cliffsmith3376]

Hutchison Fusion are the worst tyres I've ever used, prone to blistering and a complete waste of money! Currently on Pirelli P-Zero's TLR and they're great!

[@chickenpoodle]

i think a much better system is.... running tubeless with one of those foam core run flat systems, then you pump your sealant in.

[@yewnammak750]

I bet you’ve already burnt 1000 calories just by putting the tyres on 🤣

[@paulsslightlyactivelife]

Commuting from Essex to London daily I got so sick of flats on my road bike that I put a Tannus solid tyre on the back. Not had a puncture in months, but you really feel every bump. RideLondon is going to be a harsh 100 miles!!!

[@Cade_Media]

Doing the ride 100 on the tannus?! I want to try these!

[@christophejournoud2773]

Hi, There are really strong tires against puncture if you do not bother of weight and it i is way easier to mount. And it would have in my opinion a better efficiency

[@tsalesto]

You could drill a 2nd valve hole and put in tubeless sealant between the 2 tires. But, then it would be a lot like the Schwalbe system, only heavier and more difficult to manage.

[@truthseeker8483]

What a nightmare that would be 😀

[@redalert2834]

Why not take a discarded inner tube, slice it up to get a narrow strip and glue that to the inner surface of your normal tyre using ordinary puncture repair glue? Or even do the same thing using a worn out tyre instead? You would still use an inner tube in both cases. The weight of the wheel would increase a bit but it shouldn't feel too bad to ride.

[@Elektronijaenis]

It would be nice to see a comparison between that and some tires with the puncture protection layer.

[@WesternUranus]

OR you can use a thick, puncture-resistant tire and add a tire liner to protect the tube further. It would ride better, be cheaper, safer and you'd only make your winter rides 50 watts harder, which will pay dividends come spring

[@tomcampbell5860]

You've almost invented the inner tube

[@borasumer]

If you drive your bike around with your car, you never get punctures, I have tested multiple times.

[@speedy7974]

I did this for years with old tubs from the TT bike. Yeah slow but great training affect.