Free Greenhouse Heat - Adding a Solar Wall To Our Passive Solar Greenhouse

[@UltimateMark80]

Your work is gorgeous. Keep going man, it's the right way to analyze if your assumptions are valid.

[@Nadine----]

?

[@hilarygrebowicz4787]

Thank you for all your hard work! Sharing Ideas and your journey is very helpful. Here are my Ideas you probably already thought of. 1. If you cover your rafters in black tar paper or aluminum painted black the rafters would produce a lot of heat. 2. If you run copper pipes with water or glycol along the rafters where the hottest temps are you could store that heat to keep the greenhouse warm at night. love what you do! take care

[@douggibson9084]

Excellent information video. My cheap greenhouse, non insulated -2°C outside +31°C. Free energy thanks for the free summit.

[@nadsomt9198]

This is very sweet. It would help on the ground 1 felt paper thin 2 6 mill plastic 3 insulation 4 gravel 4 inches then mud set cement floor now you have a vapor bearer cut the plastic around the wall this works. Old tile setter Colorado 9000 ft elv

[@jenniexfuller]

Wow! So cool! Paint that silver pipe black before you put anything over it so you can see the delta between all three options (as is now, with black pipe, with panels over the pipe).

[@davefroman4700]

With all due respect, you have a first principals design flaw. You need to create a vacuum on the cold side of the system to efficiently move the heat energy underground. You will gain a minimum 15% efficiency if you do. Trying to push hot air down is like trying to push a wet noodle. You force 1200 cfm in and get 1000 cfm out. Turn it around and pull the air out of the system from the other end and you end up with 1200 out, but 1400 on the intake side.

[@expandingedge7562]

Dude, that wall is gonna be waaarm! Keep up the awesome work

[@ncfarmgarden2764]

I am intrigued by the idea of a passive solar greenhouse that can grow 12 months a year in central Alberta. I am building a passive solar greenhouse & should be done in a week or two. I am hoping our design will allow us to grow veggies year round... even in our cold Alberta winters.

[@cliffstacey1838]

Good day, I just came across this video and saw your comment. I'm curious how you made out with your project, regarding your attempt to extend the growing season. I am in the Edmonton area an am considering trying the same. thanks.

[@bestgreenhomestead]

Great video! We do regenerative agriculture, this is a great idea! Our caterpillar tunnels are 20-30°C warmer than outside on a sunny winter day! We keep poultry in them overwinter. Passive solar heating is amazing, active solar heating is even better! I studied this a lot in Construction Engineering and civil engineering technology courses in college. Love it!

[@MrRerod]

Very interesting. It would be great if you could adapt this to a residential home..

[@jessemeyer3628]

Finally! Someone who is trying to improve greenhouse design! Your doing the world a wonderful service. 4 clear walls is just so inefficient and wasteful.. but also theres no really well documented cases of solar passve design to do anything about it.. until now!! Im so in this. Our greenhouse heats up faster then our house and it drives me crazy knowing a few windows on the south side could literally reduce heat consumption by almost 50%. 98% efficient furnace heats the house to 24 and my greenhouse has no heat and its currently 30 deg. And yet were still building the same houses that require huge waste of energy to keep warm. Its an absolute sin.

[@canadiangemstones7636]

There are literally millions of acres of passive solar greenhouses in Northern China, producing veg in -20. You can buy a 100 meter greenhouse kit for $100K.

[@duanesbuhler7696]

We need trail blazers like you. Keep up the great work.

[@anniekrsiean6283]

follow up question, if my greenhouse is built into a south facing hill and the north wall is all earth, would I need insulation?

[@AlDaoust]

My friend, I am very much looking forward to the summit and book. I'll promote it as best as I can. The OPDC was huge for me. My wife and I are transitioning to full time permaculture work over the next few years (actively taking steps now). Our house design was partially informed by your work (passive solar design, light colored roof and cladding, etc) You and Takota informed the animal and greenhouse systems that were implementing this year. I digress. You guys are great.

[@VergePermaculture]

Thanks big guy!

[@vadensomers624]

Well that’s cool. Looks bad-ass also. It seems strange to say but I am “excited” to see the data.

[@VergePermaculture]

I am a strange guy Vaden.

[@jeffdible8171]

Simply fantastic! Divine use of technology!

[@TheEmbrio]

That's interesting. Besides dynamic modeling, I think a lifecycle analysis with embodied carbon analysis would be good. Metal and glass and concrete sure consume a lot of energy to make.

[@LeeAngold]

I'm so interested to see the performance on this system and learn more about the venting.

[@safffff1000]

Good luck on your many projects. I only consider Perma (permanent) Culture as meaning set upand and it self maintains like a forest, with just harvesting and minor triming

[@6478nick]

Hi I am from Toronto, Canada. Building a Passive Net Zero home and was planning to build a Green house attached to the main house such that there is a direct entry from Kitchen to the green house. This is very expensive for a smaller consumer. I would be interested in developing as a grower as I have a big chunk of land ideal for such a project and how to get government finance to help such a project. Looking forward to attending the upcoming event. Thanks

[@devoedselboss]

Hey Rob, I was wondering why you lay the pipes lengthwise. I also built a passive greenhouse (in the Netherlands) and came to the conclusion that the heat is released for the first 3-4 meters under the ground, then no longer. Keep up te good work!

[@gerretw]

I was wondering if a solar water heater and a pump pushing the water under the green house is a better idea. I think water picks up and transfers heat better than air. Your thoughts?

[@cupbowlspoonforkknif]

​@@gerretw water adds a lot more complexity and expense to the project. You have to worry about freezing and pressure and I think the pipes would be more expensive than these perforated drain pipes.

[@michaelfelder2640]

Permaculture thinking (stacking/multi use) is effective in any engineering design. I sent The Cyberlandr developers some ideas they are now incorporating that will allow the camper to do many things. Promote that thinking process across the spectrums of all development and we will be heading in the right direction.

[@kristytetreau7293]

Thank you for continuing to share! Can't wait for the book!!!!

[@Cspacecat]

The first thing I see is the back wall isn't flat black. The second thing I see is there is no insulated roof. Bad idea. You can use an external reflector to get the light into the greenhouse. My sunroom is presently 76F. I have a 90-ton gravel bed with a blower and ductwork to the gravel bed, Mylar mirrored R-37 ceilings, mirrored east and west walls that are R-31, and black concrete walls attached to the backside of my house. This is what heats my house most of the winter.

[@sallysulzer4756]

Good ideas! Yeah passive solar greenhouse!

[@anniekrsiean6283]

I'm wondering why the duct work isn't closer to the top of the wall? If heat rises, why is the duct work 1/4 of the way down the wall and not at the top? Awesome videos. I'm learning a ton! Thank you!!

[@andrewclarke3707]

why have you left the ducting reflective and not painted it black too?

[@robertwoodliff2536]

Solar wall.....why is the collector manifold 1/4 way down from the top.? Why is the wall that glossy.?As you have a set of distinct manifold ports., maybe try a strip of heavy matt., and a strip of double insulated.?and map both.?Keep up the great work..

[@sevenlayersfarmandnursery2998]

I don't see a link for the summit. Am I missing something?

[@keawhitmore3842]

I couldn't find it either. I went to the website and didn't see it there either. ????

[@18Rhapsody]

Same

[@andydimezza2229]

This is excellent timing. We are working on our attached greenhouse design and we’re trying to figure out the best way to extend the heat, or cool from the previous season. Been toying with the idea of extending the geo/solar thermal loop on the inside of the frost wall... but this, coupled with your teased more elegant green house venting are intriguing. Looking forward to the summit!

[@maisis.2139]

Thanks for sharing... good information ..watching from Montevideo..

[@nickneufeld2081]

Excited for this summit. Thanks for making it free! I'm curious - why is the ducting on the thermal collector 2/3 of the way up the wall instead of at the top?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Likely due to sun angle? There's probably very little sun hitting the very top of that wall, even in the winter. The longer you go up, the more your thermal losses to convection are, and the harder it is to fight against the natural thermosyphon by pumping warm air DOWN to the soil. Just my guess.

[@jmozinski7037]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I think your idea of adding glazing to the wall like a giant solar hot air collector is a good one. If you strapped the wall horizontally for the glazing over the same nailers as the wall panels forming long horizontal bays, you could eliminate the horizontal run of duct and just tap the vertical duct in each bay. You would obviously have to provide for supply air at the other end of each "bay". Just a thought - keep up the great work.

[@lordbeeg1]

why wouldn't you paint the vent pipes black as well similar to the wall panels?

[@lehmejoun]

Hi, where can I find the whitepaper mentioned in this video for study? The website is a bit confusing, if I could get a direct link to reference on which one it is.

[@RodMcLaren]

Great to see the solar wall installed, Rob. Based on our very limited experience with our new PSG this winter in which we did not instal the subterranean heating & cooling system, I expect your greenhouse will perform even better than your projections show. I expect you may be making it through the winter entirely without frost.

[@jonathanmaxwell6677]

Will the summit be recorded? I’m a student and sadly will be busy but would love to learn from all the guests attending. Thanks!

[@philandhannahslittlefarm1464]

I have a general question about what the point of diminishing returns would be on a passive solar greenhouse. It would obviously be relative to the amount of glazing but do you have a good rule of thumb for this? Wouldn't it be more worthwhile to spend money on better insulated glazing over the r value of the north wall?

[@VergePermaculture]

It depends on your goals. I see this as an inflation hedge. What is the value of food in spite of hail, cold nights and a short growing season. As money diminishes it is good to invest it into things you can wear.

[@ediblelandscaping1504]

Rob, by making the back wall a solar collector aren't you eliminating it as a growing surface(with trellises) as well, since it will be way too hot for plants? And, aren't you going to be growing vertically in there, which would likely shade much of the back wall in the winter with the very low sun angle? Why don't you create a multi-layered solar wall heat collector across the entirety of your knee wall instead? You would have no shadowing effects, it's otherwise "wasted" space and you'll have less issues with thermosyphoning that CPL is mentioning(below)?

[@genegrindle8859]

OVerthinking it

[@squeekhobby4571]

Awesome technique

[@NotAsTraceable]

Did the climate battery keep the greenhouse warm in the winter?

[@sarahloy830]

Does the black wall make it harder the cool the space in summer since there is so little thermal mass to it?

[@seek2find]

GLAZING IDEA!!! Hey Rob, what if you were to experiment with a different material than glazing to cover your black wall and do it this year? You know that thick, clear plastic they use in grocery stores to keep refrigerated areas accessible? What if you draped some vertical blinds of clear plastic in front of the wall? The mechanism of the vertical blinds could be drawn aside when desired. What do you think?

[@frenchfryfarmer436]

Can I build a ground battery just to the east side of my 80' greenhouse if I insulate well all sides ? Air-air ... I have 15" alum manifolds, and ability to go 10' deep in Pittsburgh area. Clay soil back fill. Can be occasionally drained of condensation on downslope side passively. Have area to fill ...fill is free, labor is "free" only thing i would need to buy is tube from manifold to manifold.

[@Nadine----]

Wow, amazing news.

[@jeffcrampton4771]

You are doing a great job

[@nocogarden]

Where did you source that black perforated siding ?

[@irishvoyageur]

Adding glazing with an appropriate air space will boost (concentrate) the btu output of your "solar wall." This will turn your wall into a solar air heater.

[@JohnGuest45]

Assuming you can get enough sun on the collector, it will dry out the soil nearest the inlet and potentially be too warm to grow anything. If you have tall plants it will reduce the light to the collector., much like black water barrels it performs best with direct sun.

[@chankludo1]

Can I build some epoxy strips, for covering your thermal collection wall? Some epoxies can withstand UV very well and allow you to determine the exact thickness as desired.

[@d.k.3316]

Congrats Rob! Looks great - both greenhouse and book. I know you had plans to read Mollison's book so it could be in audio format. Now that you have your own book, will you be reading that / making it available in audiobook format?

[@VergePermaculture]

thinking about it Duke.

[@cupbowlspoonforkknif]

​@@VergePermaculture That would be amazing! I don't get a lot of time to read but I have loads of time to listen to books as I'm a painter. One year I listened to 63 books while working!

[@dodopson3211]

First 2:10 minutes aren't related to the greenhouse, for those of you who are as impatient as I am 😜

[@gridfreedomquest8613]

can you tell me what hardiness zone you are living in and can you tell me what the zone is inside your psg please? thank you

[@alexisbaker9661]

Hey I'm trying to do this in a small home greenhouse I've built and running the warm air under a built-in raised bed. I was wondering people's thoughts on material options - I have some leftover sheet metal I could paint black but may need stitched together a bit and be more/messier work, or I could go with the suntuff corrugated polycarbonate tinted grey with 35% light transmission. This would be easier to work with, and since the wall currently has foil bubble insulation over the rest of the insulation I was thinking it may both work better by letting light penetrate like a double greenhouse and also add some extra light back for the plants as well? Thoughts?

[@timross3841]

Help if you can, please. My greenhouse is TOO HOT on winter days. Zone 4 here, winter lows -10 to -20. Last winter I built a greenhouse, 8'x12', about 100 sq ft with 4'x8' twin wall polycarbonate. Total volume about 480 cu. ft. It was not well insulated, and had significant - A LOT! - of air infiltration. Yet, on Feb. 4 I had a temp of 98F, and on Feb 27 up to 108F. Now its October, going into the first full winter. I have greatly reduced the infiltration, and easily get the temp up to 108F in full sun. My question is: How can I cool it down in the day with a water heat sink? I'd rather not ventilate (I do in the spring/summer). I see solar pumps that will do 160 gph, so moving water around should be easy enough. The question is, can I get enough heat into the water to cool things down? I fully intend to continue using electric heat, but I have just way too much heat in the day. I guess another idea is just to use fans to move the air top to bottom, but this might not be enough now that I have tightened up the space. (Also, I built it in December, so the ground was frozen before it was closed up. This year, the greenhouse is tight, and the ground is starting off much warmer than last year, and will hopefully stay that way.) Thoughts and ideas appreciated. Thanks!

[@markj6442]

Wouldnt you have your diy solar heater wall on the outside shorter wall with solar powered fans pushing it towards the solar collection wall, letting it emanate into the soil instead of using a fan to move heat from the top?

[@MetaView7]

Have you looked at the Chinese passive greenhouse?

[@PhilStjohn-hr7xg]

Rob very interesting video thank you for making it. Really looking forward to your follow-ups. One question I had are you concerned about mold behind the wall or in your pipes From condensation

[@victoriavongate7208]

Doing another this year?

[@happyhobbit8450]

I WANT THIS!!!

[@thatswhatshesaid1]

Who makes that fan?

[@offgridwanabe]

I'd put heat pipes full of acetone on top of the black soffit as it wouldn't take any heat away and it would boil water.

[@IS-217]

Hey Rob great video. I'm loving the idea of converting my standard 6x8 glass greenhouse into a passive solar greenhouse. I am really trying to make it as efficient as possible (a truly passive solar greenhouse with no electricity). I've seen a design out of Minnesota where they use what's called a "cold sink". I was thinking of doing this inside my greenhouse. Dig down 4-6 feet and use this as a walkway thru the center of my greenhouse. I will be insulating my north, east, and south walls with hay bales and insulating part of the roof as well. Then I am going to cover with a tarp. Inside I plan to use some sort of barrels as a thermal mass heat source, as well I would like to do some sort of thermal battery below the ground while I'm digging out the greenhouse... I would love to get any feedback about this idea, any help or tips would be greatly appreciated. I was wondering how I could make a smart system here... My cold sink wall way will be down the center of the greenhouse. I will need to drop my entrance door below grade and build some kind of staircase to get down to new greenhouse standing floor level. I've read that its best to have my floor about 4' below grade but also another 2' cavity below this to help with temp regulation. I assume you know about this style of greenhouse with a cold sink. Any ideas how I could incorporate the thermal battery idea into this cold sink idea? I will have a bed on either side of my sunken walkway (one along the north wall and one along the south facing wall) Would I just need to get my perforated tubes below my walkway or should I bury them under the lowest part of the ground. (I'm trying to think of a way to connect both beds to the underground pipe system) Maybe it would be smarter to have a manifold for each bed? As well as another one that went down as deep as lower part of cold sink? LOL any help...

[@regun2434]

Try black 2.0 or similar to that collector. 🤔

[@PlantedByChris]

That wall would be the perfect place for solar panels (if they wouldn't overheat). Nice job. I look forward to the event!

[@marclrcq]

Wonder how a wall like this stacks up against the tradition barrel wall.

[@seek2find]

QUESTION?? Have you ever considered using glass vacuum/evacuated tubes to heat water and use hot water lines to bank some heat? Or Did you eliminate that possibility already for some reason?

[@alvisemj7108]

Hi, i think moving water is less cost effective, you do not have the advantage of moisture control, photovoltaic is getting cheaper by the day, is more convenient to have photovoltaic and you have more flexibility if unwant to use then hot water or hot air depending on the necessity...

[@DinoPasic]

How it works after a year? Thanks

[@TiffKeiller]

Shall we build ours and you can experiment there too???

[@zacharieroy2106]

Can you provide a link for the greenhouse that you mentioned at 6:07

[@jeffreyatto2523]

Would you say your greenhouse design is closer to the “The Forest Garden Greenhouse “ by Jerome Osentowski, or “The Year-Round Solar Greenhouse” by Schiller and Plinke?

[@VergePermaculture]

It has elements of everything I have seen plus my own ideas.

[@williamsmith2490]

Great work good luck. this compares to the Chinese clay solar walls with double glaze or air gap green house design. Certainly air solar has to be the least expensive solar , wondering if sand would work as good as clay, of course this will lead to local produce, possibility eliminating imported produce.

[@lauraerdelyi4548]

Could you please send some more infos about clay solar I didn t find nothing usefule on the internet thanks from Hungary

[@shawnr771]

Very interesting.

[@4thkindofmadness592]

Re: the advantage of running tubes east-west vs. North-south. How important is the length of the tubes (some sources suggest climate battery tubes should be at least 24’ long). Is there a minimum length of tube to be able to efficiently extract heat or to warm colder air?

[@mitchblyth12]

I had the same thought I thought running them N to S would maybe be more efficient (so long as they are long enough), because you could eliminate the 2nd large pipe and just bring each small pipe above ground and bend it 90 degrees. That way your returning warm air in winter is spread across the whole width of greenhouse and at plant level instead of out of one pipe in a corner

[@nickb8002]

Will the summit be available to watch if I can't make it to the live event. Raising my straw bale walls that weekend 😓

[@VergePermaculture]

We are recording it Nick. We will have a package with the book for offer afterwards.

[@nickb8002]

@@VergePermaculture Great and congratulations on the book!

[@sunflowers7186]

Hi! Can i buy the book in VietNam?

[@guiltfreehotwater4354]

why not add some evacuated tubes? up outside close by

[@bw10097428]

What if you put a water tank under ground. Would that hold the heat better?

[@bw10097428]

Possibly several 55 gallon drums.

[@AubreyZhang]

No, this is not the way to do it. There is no medium other than WATER that is more effective in storing solar thermal energy. The best way to build a greenhouse is to build one with two layers of glazing to form a cavity or a blanket of air. But we are using the air in the cavity to produce wet soap bubbles where are more effective in collecting solar thermal energy than air itself. I ask everyone here to explore Richard Nelson's SolaRoof - Liquid Bubble Insulation and Shading system. Basically it is solar thermal coupled with geo thermal assisted by water pool. The solar thermal gain collected during the day is enough to be used at night time as long as you have a good insulation system - in our case we use soap bubbles to insulate which is euivalent to R1 for each inch of soap bubble foam.

[@michaelfelder2640]

"Designing the ultimate solar air collector" by G. Scott Davis has the data on the collector you want. He and his group tested side by sides with thermal cameras and sensors for air speed .. check him out at build it solar. Also KZbin.

[@Wigington24]

Speaking of data that was a waste. Put the heat collector at the top

[@greenthumbprepper8653]

I’m looking for a permaculture course/teacher near Toronto Ontario. Do you have any suggestions?

[@RodMcLaren]

Unless you are looking for an in-person course, you might consider taking the Verge online PDC. I took the course last year and was very pleased.

[@greenthumbprepper8653]

@@RodMcLaren I’m open to either option. I have a feeling currently that there won’t be in class learning for a while Rod. Thank you. I’ll look into that course you suggested!!

[@jamesmuir8179]

Hi. Can you sign me up for the summit. I can't seem to find the link.

[@VergePermaculture]

Just head over to www.vergepermaculture.ca

[@Wild_Alien]

2:16 to cut to the chase

[@hulksmash3259]

The pipe on the black solar wall is too low and should be at the very top ( maybe even placed on the roof ). there 1/4 - 1/5 of wall above the pipe collection heat and then not going into the pipe.

[@darrellluck7230]

Excellent idea .... but, you can't call it a PASSIVE solar greenhouse if you are using fans to make the system work.

[@frenchfryfarmer436]

If they were 12v from solar? Just curious

[@PacmanZ1999]

Too expensive for commonly farms. A guy just use clay to hold the heat at day time, and cover glass with 1" blanket at night. He can run year round greenhouse in Alberta without heater.

[@slamrock17]

Maybe if you used evacuated tubes and water instead of air!

[@happyhobbit8450]

Water freezes ... probably work in southern states but not in canada where 6 months of the year it freezes. In Calgary, which is south of Rob, it has had snow in every month of the year. Also, if there is a grand solar minimum & a mini ice age then water will prove more problematic

[@willprovost3212]

@@happyhobbit8450 the copper evacuated tubes on the interior use an alcohol mixture and they're typically good down to around -40f/-40c.

[@pin65371]

@@happyhobbit8450 one company based out of Calgary did a test with vacuum tubes a few years back. 2 30 tube panels produced 9 million btus in January. We get lots of sun so it works pretty well for our location.

[@mel3256]

The majority of permaculture materials and designers I have read and worked with the focus is on working with nature. It is the core of permaculture. Watching alot of Verge videos and reading your content, I appreciate a huge amount of expertise and resources invested in this work, but alot of it does not seem to be permaculture. Most of your work in recent years has radically changed the ecosystem and natural layout, like this greenhouse. Using tons of concrete, plastic and toxic high energy materials is the complete opposite of working with nature. Working with nature we would not completely rip everything out and build a huge concrete and metal structure. This is very useful but not working with the ecosystem, and very energy and petroleum intensive.

[@rhb30001]

Link? Where is it? Hello is anyone there?

[@flippinnickelproductions298]

How much pollution did it take to manufacture? How are you going to dispose of the poisonous metal and chemicals in them?

[@duncanjames914]

This video is laughable. Solar air heating for Industrial/Commercial/Institutional buildings has been used for over 40 years. Companies like Boeing, Walmart, and Toyota as well as agricultural applications such as poultry barns, schools hospitals and factories are just a start. It is also used for crop drying for coffee, cocoa, beans, nuts, rice and tea around the world. The US NREL and Canadian NRCAN have touted solar air heating as having the highest known efficiency of any active solar technology in existence. SolarWall is a Canadian brand owned by Conserval Engineering. Conserval commercialized and developed transpired open lop air collectors and can vary perforation rates in their panels to achieve a designed airflow and efficiency. Using a perforated soffit such as shown in this video is laughable. It will produce very minimal results. SolarWall has been independently monitored with the data used to provide modelling software and expected outcomes of performance based on site conditions. Soffit has also been monitored and it doesn't work for very specific reasons.

[@acemany1126]

This weak azz wall. Not worth the money. Black barrel full of water with recirculation would have done the job.

[@shawnchong]

"Epic" and "super epic" are such overused and lame adjectives... permaculture isn't some tiktok video, ya know...

[@cbryanto]

Your plants will be gasping for carbon dioxide.

[@АнтонАвдюков-к2н]

Столько болтовни а чего-то конкретного ноль😢бесполезная трепотня😅