How To Build a Climate Battery - Day 2 - Construction In Passive Solar Greenhouse

In this video we continue the process of building the climate battery for our new passive solar greenhouse. Climate batteries also called GAHTS and subterranean heating and cooling systems store energy in the earth when there is a surplus of heat in the greenhouse for later use.
We spent most of the summer performing thermodynamic analysis on our greenhouse to determine if they even worked and to our amazement they do. In fact our analysis showed that they have the ability to store energy seasonally which was better than I was expecting.
Our model anticipates that we should be able to keep our greenhouse above zero until January 15th of most years without any fossil fuels to keep it heated. This should provide us with 3 seasons of robust food production with minimal costs.
See the videos for all 3 days of climate battery construction:
Day 1 - • How To Build a Climate...
Day 2 - You are here!
Day 3 - • How To Build a Climate...
If you're ready to build a life changing greenhouse, Register for the course at: vergepermaculture.ca/passive-...
Links to topics in this video:
About Rob Avis and Verge Permaculture:
In less than 10 years, Rob & Michelle Avis left Calgary’s oil fields and retooled his engineering career to help clients and students design integrated systems for shelter, energy, water, waste and food, all while supporting local economy and regenerating the land. He’s now leading the next wave of permaculture education, teaching career-changing professionals to become eco-entrepreneurs with successful regenerative businesses. Learn more and connect with Rob & Michelle at vergepermaculture.ca/
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[@ceili]

Fascinating, looking forward to updates

[@MultiOhioman]

Use a short 2x4 to drive against the edge and change positions regularly until apart. Did this a lot.nice show.

[@UltimateMark80]

Super interesting. Keep going man!

[@brettferdinandi4401]

Thank you for publicly pursuing this endeavor!

[@dirtysouthtv2209]

Lubricate the seal on the elbows and end caps-no cracks.

[@andydimezza2229]

Good looking shepherd, she herd the kids? Ours herds our friends kids and we’re assuming she’ll herd our kid once it’s born. Also thanks for these, our friend/landscape design partner is going through pdc now and the dedication to pragmatic and scientific rigor is refreshing in this space. Him amd I both survived working for Growing Power.

[@AutoHoax]

At the expense of those fittings pipes and the end caps etc etc a Plenum could have been created with CMU 8x8x16 and then turning the blocks on their side for the openings. Sticking the drain tile into the plenum box and rhe packing the remainder of space with a mortar mix.

[@jamesadams3730]

Hey Rob, what is the horizontal and vertical spacing on center that you used for the 50 tubes in your 20ft long manifold?

[@Gozelis]

That's nice greenhouse you building! one question, so the moisture stays beneath the earth what about mold accumulation in these pipes? have you done research on that?

[@ronk4073]

Late to the party here. I'd think a lubricant would help get the elbows on and off easier. Dish washing soap would be good for getting it on, though maybe it would dry out before you wanted to get it off again. Glycerine would probably work well, and I don't think it would dry out as quickly. I was also surprised you can't get ripe tomatoes in 100 frost free days. Maybe tomatoes that need 85 days to produce ripe tomatoes would be cutting it close, but I've read some early producing tomatoes are more in the 40 - 60 day range. That would leave you with like 50 days of harvesting. Not as long as further south, but not bad. Siberian Tomato, Sub-Arctic Plenty Tomato, Manitoba Tomato, and Moskvich Tomato are supposed to produce pretty early, and are all open pollinated varieties so you could save your own seed. Anyway, good luck with the homestead!

[@dirtysouthtv2209]

Cling wrap instead of duct tape.

[@jansipos8203]

what do u think about doing climate battery from pipe in one piece, 2 layers. meaning I would do it from single pipe,as underfloor heating but I would start circling the pipe from middle of greenhouse outside out. Would it work?

[@SeaTaj]

If you swamp cool in the summer, do you expect these to get waterlogged? Or does it just require that you only run the GAHT at the night when you are not swamp cooling?

[@DevinVoorsanger]

Question: could you replicate this system into 3 separate zones in the same square footage? So your system as you installed it, but replicated 3x at smaller. That way you could have a 3 zone system for different types of plants. Is that possible or is there an engineering reason why the white cloth covered pipes need to be a certain length?

[@MetaView7]

did you drill holes in the green pipe? that's going to collect a lot of condensation.

[@michaelgettens4411]

If there are perforations in the 3" pipe, how will water affect the system? Since it is used as a drainage pipe, won't it fill up with water?

[@melodypearson6920]

We have a high water table that n the winter. Will a earth battery work for us?

[@davesmith913]

do you get mold in the air pipes?

[@seanrobert2227]

could this be used under a house but with pvc so you don’t get radon?

[@billwalker9999]

maybe a premature question before taking a course or reading and researching further, but what is the formula for determining depth? I saw one video where it looked to be 8 feet deep and this looks closer to 4 to 4.5 feet, but never mentioned why

[@waldoom1]

Hi, would this type of system work for cooling on a high temperature (95 F) and high humidity (86%) site, on a greenhouse thats wrapped with anti thrips mesh on the sides, white plastic on the roof, and has an opening all along the top for ventilation (and also has anti thrips mesh), or would the cool air escape too fast to actually cool down the greenhouse, i'm in the Caribbean by the way, and another question is, would it reduce the humidity levels in the greenhouse????

[@oBseSsIoNPC]

Hmm, did I miss the part where you explain how water that enters the manifold is syphoned off and drained or are the hoses sloped away from the manifold? Looks like a nifty way of moving and storing the heat, I wonder how it affects the root systems and how you will manage them, not growing into the pipes.

[@michaelgettens4411]

i have the same question, why not use solid pipe?

[@Testing329]

Viva Christo Rey

[@carlschissler]

How did you determine the spacing of the perforated pipes? My gut says that they should be spaced a bit farther apart (possibly in 3 rows instead of 2) so that there is more thermal mass in contact with the pipes. It seems like the surrounding soil would saturate with heat more quickly (i.e. less storage) if the ratio of soil to pipes is too low. Do short 35ft runs of pipe provide enough time for the heat in the intake air to be exchanged before exiting? Would a longer greenhouse work better? Would a serpentine pattern with much longer pipes work as well or would there be too much air resistance?

[@elmerkilred159]

They're not deep enough. The pipes are too close together, and their soil needs to have more clay in it. They also have socks over their pipes... (Insulating your heat exchanger defeats the purpose of of having a heat exchanger).

[@noname-xt2io]

last i heard, it was one 3 to 4 inch pipe for every square foot of surrounding earth would get your maximum potential out , i cant recall what the air movement was but it was slow, something like 21 gallons of air per minute equivalant. and the thing most people dont realise is your exchanging heat all year..your putting heat into the ground in summer and your pulling it out in winter. if you move more heat underground in summer, you gotta use it in winter or else the ambient temp will go up underground and the next summer your not going to get the same amount of cooling out of it

[@resilientfarmsanddesignstu1702]

You are correct that the latent heat is stored by the phase change of water from liquid to gas and released during the phase change from vapor to liquid. Evaporation extracts heat from the surface upon which the evaporation is occurring, cooling it. Condensation, releases that heat to the surface upon which the condensation is occurring, heating it. So as long as the evaporation is occurring INSIDE the greenhouse in the Summer, it will cool it. Likewise, as long as the condensation is occurring INSIDE the greenhouse in the Winter, it will warm it. However, since it is the surface, NOT the air, that is being heated or cooled, if these processes are occurring IN THE GROUND, there will be no useful cooling or heating effect in the greenhouse!

[@lemilemi5385]

Hi Rob, shouldnt you position the 'Trombe' wall at the front of the greenhouse so it cant get obstructed by anything within the greenhouse?

[@zanepaxton7452]

That’s an excellent point!

[@STEAMLabDenver]

Update? I want to build one of these but it will only be 250 sq ft. I am trying to do research and I am finding conflicting information. I would love to hear more from you on how successful this is or even have a consult. Thanks!

[@VergePermaculture]

Stay tuned then! Lots more videos coming soon

[@SeaTaj]

How do ensure you get relatively equal flow between the outlets on the manifold? Unless there is backpressure, I would kind of expect much of the flow to short circuit down the first outlets?

[@SeaTaj]

You answered it at @12:20, thank you.

[@svgs650r]

@@SeaTaj not really

[@waywardspringsacres]

@@svgs650r Right! Using a Z-type manifold like this improves distribution over a U-type manifold, but is still far from uniform. TRNSYS isn't capable of that aspect of the design analysis.

[@mdv44444]

Would it help the thermodynamics to put some sort of insulation under the weeping tile and on the interior of the foundation?

[@noname-xt2io]

you need some outlet to the underlying earth, it helps keep it from storing too much heat or cool year on year

[@Thomas-hm4ec]

No you can insulate around the greenhouse. The best example is Arkopia growing bananas in -34°c 😢

[@scottynepahable]

I love the idea of using the earth as thermal mass, but on my farm in BC there is so much ground water i fear my pipes would fill with water unless I raised the whole earth mass up and had a perimeter drain. Did you install drains of any type to clear the build up of ground water? I see one drain tile pipe is in a puddle all ready. Is That why you didnt put insulation on the bottom under the first layer of pipes? because you didnt want to hold water? do you feel that the earths constant temperature is enough that you dont need insulation underneath the thermal mass? thank you for the videos!

[@nekononiaow]

You do not want insulation beneath the thermal mass because this effectively reduces the total thermal storage mass, you want as much as possible of the underground to be your thermal mass. Sure, there will be loses to the outside but as long as the rate of loss is low enough this should not be a problem. Insulation on the sides however is probably necessary.

[@Thomas-hm4ec]

Yes if you interrupt the ground water flows enough you should be able to stay dry & then yes you can use insulation to cut permafrost to harness more thermal mass control from the earth. The loss of heat from ground frost entering would require too much heat to grow all year using it to bank heat.

[@richardburgess399]

Instead of a wood boiler, could one put a rocket stove, directing the air into the ground to heat the mass battery?

[@nickorango]

I have the same idea. And maybe use directed reflection on the wall inside the greenhouse to heat oil trough pipes in the ground.

[@kreeptip]

Great work but i need some clarification please. I keep seeing 8-10ft minimum to see a significant gain in thermal exchange in plenty of theoretical txts but have yet to see one installed beyond 4-5ft at any latitude however all of these shallow installs tout the benefits. Has anyone actually figured this out yet or is it yet to be properly documented? It is a huge investment and technical endeavour on a maybe...

[@JohnGuest45]

These systems actively add and remove heat from the mass so there`s no need to go 8-10ft deep.

[@robertj.wiltshire1553]

I would love to speak to you and possibly help your study! Or hire you for an hour or two of your time. I am working with a local engineer and cad professional right now to build plans for my greenhouse which includes a gaht system. I have a large sum of capital put to the side and hope to break ground within the next 8 months. I'm in upstate NY, USA. I believe it was your calculator I bought several months back from small farm academy that helped me work out many details including my operational costs for my design. PM me or comment back and il find a way to reach out.

[@kazparzyxzpenualt8111]

Above zero Centigrade?

[@derekdepauw964]

How has your system made out over the last couple of years? Also, I'm very curious why it is you use drain, or weeping tile pipes? Does moisture inside the pipes not hinder the efficiency?

[@zanepaxton7452]

I’d have the same concern

[@zanepaxton7452]

If there’s moisture in the system from either the ground moisture (and from watering) or air humidity condensing then that’s a great place for mold and mildew right?

[@zanepaxton7452]

The 4” ABS perf pipe would be a great home for gophers and moles!

[@derekdepauw964]

@zanepaxton7452 I understand having a thin walled pipe so that the transfer of air is easier, but perforated seems like it would create problems. I'm seeing a lot of videos about the use of perforated pipe, but maybe that would work in areas with very low water tables. Definitely not in my area. I also tried to reach out to this group directly, as I was in Alberta for a week, and no one seems to have any interest in responding. I just wanted to know some results, and maybe see if I could stop by and see the operation for myself, so I could better understand the system. So I'm a little discouraged by the lack of response to a legitimate concern.

[@szekelycsaba8364]

Grease the elbow rubber sealing before putting it on so its easier to move

[@arexius3]

What is the minimum size of greenhouse for this system to work effectively? I suppose you need a larger greenhouse with sufficant air volume in order to work?

[@JohnGuest45]

almost any size, the smallest installation i`ve seen was in a 6ft x 6ft greenhouse.

[@arexius3]

@@JohnGuest45 thank you 🙏

[@JohnGuest45]

@@arexius3 How big is your greenhouse?

[@arexius3]

@@JohnGuest45 a bit more than 100 square feet

[@JohnGuest45]

@@arexius3 If its the one on your channel it looks bigger than 100 square feet but its big enough to install a system . All you need to know is the available floor size (L x W) that you can physically get a spade into and the internal air volume of the greenhouse.

[@jnl.]

why not just use the flexible tube only and have one single line that snakes back and forth across the ground? would be MUCH cheaper and easier to install.

[@JohnGuest45]

It will have a massive resistance to air flow severely limiting the amount of air you can run.

[@jakehelmer]

Glycol system threw a rocket mass heater ???

[@braunzie2]

Your PVC 90 only costs $30 in the States. You got ripped off.

[@frantisekbalazsy1896]

Also here in EU I don't know where he got it from.

[@jimsandvig2570]

he certainly is a chatty Cathy

[@MetaView7]

too shallow. too many pipes. you can easily cut half away.

[@davidhausler9612]

How deep would you go.

[@christjulipds13]

Thousands of lifetime projects with Woodprix plans.

[@wischmopps293]

330$ for a 250mm 90° pipe adapter? They fuck you really hard on the USA, right? Cost about half here in Germany... Free market regulates itself my ass... Great project and inspiration! Keep that up!