Should I RENT or BUY? | + Secret FAA Buying Guide

[@SPANKA.]

Commenting this 2sec into the vid, but I want to thank you for you help man, and for free🤦🏾‍♂️. I know it comes back to you by flying cool planes and meeting helpful people. Furthermore, your videos have helped me become the first aviator in my family; got my PP certificate. THANK YOU💯

[@FreePilotTraining]

I really appreciate this comment! It’s so motivating when I see people being helped by my content. Congratulations on that achievement, and I hope you’ll stick around to see what content I have around the corner! -Josh

[@SPANKA.]

@@FreePilotTraining Can’t wait to see and learn more useful tricks. SEE YA‼️ -Ardra

[@1dullgeek]

Some comments: I bought a Piper Cherokee 140 about half way through my private training. I picked one that I knew could be used for instrument training and I have since got my instrument rating in it. About 15 hours into ownership, a magneto failed and that cost $2300 to replace. I also had a pretty expensive annual - about twice what I planned for it to be. My tachometer failed and I had to replace that - costing about $1000. I recently replaced the engine vibration isolators for about $1000. All told the amount of unplanned maintenance I've had is pretty high - over $10000. Even with all that, owning an airplane has been a bargain for me. After adding up every penny of expenses and then dividing by the hours I've flown, the hourly cost for my airplane has been about $85/hr. The airplane I trained in before I bought mine cost $165/hr to rent. It's cost me roughly half what it would have cost if I'd rented. And that's including over $10k of unplanned maintenance in the first year. Some other comments: I want a hangar. I'm on several waiting lists. Flying the airplane a lot helps - but does not eliminate - the risks from corrosion. Re: A&Ps, go find other owners of your airplane type on your field and ask them who they use. Doing this, I found an A&P that encourages owner assistance. Which is perfect for me. Re: ADs, you can query all the ADs for your airplane and engine from the FAA. Google "drs faa ad final rules" and you should find a document that shows how to search for ADs for your airplane. And you can get the results in an excel spreadsheet. Don't forget ADs related to your engine. I took that sheet and then found every AD compliance record in my logbooks and came to my checkride with the sheet and tabbed logbooks. This not only helped the checkride, but during my first annual, I'd effectively done all of the research that the IA had to do since he'd never seen my airplane before. That saved some money.

[@nsant]

Can you expand on finding AD's please. I am a student pilot getting ready for my checkride and have the hardest time searching and finding them. When I search, it comes up with 1900+ results. Do I have to go through every result? Thanks for your input.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yes, there are definitely some exceptions to the rule. And nothing beats the feeling of flying an airplane you actually own. I think a lot of the costs Seth gave us too are dependent on your location. In Oklahoma, I think our costs are quite a bit lower than $10k

[@themaverickproject4577]

I got into a flight club to learn to fly. Saved me a ton of money

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yes, that is one way to save a bundle

[@gzklgg]

@@FlatOutMatt Imagine. The winner gets to fly. But at what cost?

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@FlatOutMatt lol that would be awesome

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@gzklgg maybe we can reduce the cost of airplanes with this idea 😏

[@aaronautry1981]

​@FreePilotTraining imagine an airplane a family can take internationally or just coast to coast that costs the same as a new family suv or minivan or pickup truck. Right now you can almost buy a semi truck with only 200,000 miles for less than the average turbo prop twin or single. Make flying great and affordable

[@loupitou06fl]

I bought a Mooney with a fly buddy after our PPL in order to build time for IFR. We both did our checkride in it and it was great. Forced us to learn about systems, ADs,... Was worth every penny.

[@FreePilotTraining]

The things you learn from owning your own aircraft are definitely a huge advantage

[@micclay]

How does Mooney cost of operation compare to a 172?

[@loupitou06fl]

@@micclay never own a 172 so I can't compare. With our Mooney we haven't had any big bad surprise but in 2 years had to replace the aux fuel pump, some lights and address 2 ADs (yoke and gear extensions actuator). I would say that the biggest challenge with the maintenance of a Mooney is finding parts.

[@jogowing5993]

Thank you! I'll definitely get that "Plane Sense" handbook. I'm looking to buy a plane to finish my training, and this was good info. We're trying to make a wise choice. I've flown over 100 hours in the past year, and our rental prices are a little higher than average. We've found a nice plane for a really good price, but I know that's only a part of the total price. It was good to hear about some of the other things that I need to consider.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Awesome! Yes, this was definitely not a video to try and sway people from buying. We just wanted everyone to be informed. Thanks for watching!

[@iscottbrock]

Great video! I have considered buying my own plane because of the limited availability and selection of planes at my home airport. This video has made me think about my situation and whether I'm ready to own my aircraft. Thanks.

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for watching! Another consideration that we didn’t talk about in this video is splitting the ownership with another person

[@snowman100]

Great insight! I was highly thinking of buying an airplane and my cfi discouraged me with almost the same arguments, now I don't feel that bad about not doing it.. for now while training

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much! Owning is awesome, but it’s definitely worth learning a few things first. I’ve got a video coming out tomorrow discussing what some of those things are

[@nyboardsports]

What about buying one after your PPL? From your PPL to your commercial? Also a lot of schools will lease the plane from you and you can offset costs that way. Great content as usual!

[@FreePilotTraining]

That’s a very good point. In that case, it could definitely offset the costs. Flying clubs are another option

[@MonticelloMagic-yv1qu]

.. excellent video really great when you both uncover what us new pilots should be aware of and looking out for it's definitely reorienting to the way in getting started in aviation Many Mahalos Be Well ...

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! I really appreciate you letting me know I’m on the right track!

[@mytech6779]

Another consideration for students with an ATP goal is that 141 schools must use 141 qualified aircraft. Mainly this means you use the school's aircraft. There may be a few smaller 141 schools that may work a deal to do a lease situation where you "lease" them your aircraft, they do all of the 141 maintenance schedule stipulated in their technical specs for their fleet, and then it qualifies for 141 training and is reserved exclusivly for you. This would be best negotiated before purchase, and the total cost will likely be close to just renting their normal fleet aircraft. Also their is an initial cost of bringing the plane into 141 compliance. ( I wouldn't discourage establishing this initial condition level for a personal aircraft, it is a great baseline, but it isn't strictly required. )

[@FreePilotTraining]

I hadn’t heard that yet. Thanks for sharing

[@jhc236]

This is a fantastic video! Thank you! I've been flying for three years now..... Looking to buy. This is perfect.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much!

[@The_real_Dr_mysterious]

I could rent a hanger and use it for storage it's way bigger and if you think about you can live in it too

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yeah, that is definitely a way to save some money. I’ve seen lots of people living out of hanger homes

[@StevenShaw-cj3yd]

I'm keeping my eyes open for a somewhat affordable 172 also for learning and getting my PPL. I believe it would be more affordable to buy, in my case, since I have 2 sons who also want to get thier licenses also and it would be much cheaper than renting. Also toying with the idea of purchasing land adjacent to my local airpoort to build hangers on. My understanding is they are all full in southwest Missouri and people are on waiting lists. Thinking of taking advantage of this as a business opportunity.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Sounds like you have a pretty viable plan. Yeah, I’d like to do something similar

[@chriswoods1256]

Please do more of these!

[@FreePilotTraining]

I will! I’m editing a new one right now

[@trose0501]

There's also the third unmentioned option: Build I enjoyed the content presented. Great video!

[@FreePilotTraining]

I want to build. I think this is definitely a viable option. I’m hoping to build an RV-15. That would be another good video

[@trose0501]

@@FreePilotTraining I would be very interested in watching that series of videos

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@trose0501 Awesome! That’s good to know. I have another channel that is less focused on training where I think I’ll be putting content like that. For now, my plans for that channel are to buy a cheaper tailwheel aircraft and to start doing some mini adventures. Might be a few months before I start making regular content over there. www.KZbin.com/c/AdventureMen

[@RV6Pilot]

An RV-12 would be a great choice. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rGaafJKAj7asY8U

[@davisandotube]

LOL hangar 3k a year, down here in south Florida a small hanger IS 3k… a MONTH.

[@FreePilotTraining]

That’s insane! I guess it all depends on where you live. I’ve seen as low as $100 a month in some places

[@davisandotube]

@@FreePilotTraining I’d love to see that. I just got Quoted at KHWO shared hanger space $1,600 month two weeks ago. I currently pay $250 a month tie down at KTMB, and the sad thing, this is a “good deal”. I enjoyed your video, one thing I might add is to suggest that airplane ownership cost also depends on where you live, hence rental prices also vary for these reasons.

[@StormChaser290]

Wow 🙀

[@SoloRenegade]

my hangar is $2000/yr My insurance is less than $700/yr My typical annual/Mx is less than $1500/yr I do any allowed maintenance myself. In the first few years of ownership I've only had ~$2000 of unplanned expenses total. Buy simple airplanes

[@FreePilotTraining]

Great points. Once again, I think there’s a lot of factors involved here. It you can do the research before hand on all these things, and get the prices you’re talking about, it’s definitely worth it

[@kareemrose-benton2198]

I’m curious what kind of airplane and how old you are?

[@SoloRenegade]

@@kareemrose-benton2198 Cessna 150 CFI-I Airplanes and Helicopters 20s to early 30s I've gotten such pricing My car insurance has never been higher than $25/month my entire life, currently $12/month, and went up to $23/month when I bought a truck. I also own a Sonex Onex. I could write an entire book on how to live more affordably, lower expenses, lower you insurance rates, etc. I lived 3.5yrs in AZ while getting all my pilot/CFI ratings and initial CFI job on only $9k-$11k per year in expenses. Gas, insurance, rent, food, utilities, cellphone, internet, etc. I tracked every penny I spent (and still do) and reduced expenses everywhere I could. Even bought my current car back then from a dealership, and paid cash for it. Saving money has become as easy as breathing air for me.

[@TheSchwartzIsWithYouToday]

I love listening to your interviews and am learning a lot. How about an episode on "Alternative ways of owning / accessing your own plane"? (I added this after I wrote the stuff below.) What about buying a plane and leasing it back to a school or club? I'd like to have access to one that I can't find anywhere locally. I don't think I can afford it just for myself, but a school could certainly benefit from it, and I'd be able to fly it as well, right? (ignoring the scheduling issues) Alternatively, what about splitting the cost of a purchase up among several parties? If there are 6 people, say, you could have everybody pay 20% of estimated annual costs and end up with enough reserves to hopefully handle most contingencies. How does one learn about the tax issues involved in these situations, and what would the best way(s) to own the planes be in these situations? (Corp, LLC, Trust, etc.) Are there any guides published anywhere that get into these topics? Being semi-retired and living in Phoenix, AZ, means I can pretty much fly anytime I want when the plane is free, but probably just when it's under 100F outside (ie, Oct-May).

[@FreePilotTraining]

Great ideas! I’ll keep those in mind! Thanks!

[@AnthonyWatsonMWArts]

Excellent video with great information. Any thoughts on joining a flying club as opposed to owning or renting?

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you! I’ve heard great things about them. I’ve never personally been involved, but I’ve heard they can save you quite a bit of money.

[@foodNtravel87]

Gent’s, Great explanation and was informative. Keep up the good work

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much! I appreciate that!

[@FreePilotTraining]

If you want to learn more about Airworthiness Directives, Seth and I discuss that over on his channel. Here’s that video if you’re interested: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHy8Xppue7Sqmpo

[@theBamaJammer617]

I have owned eight airplanes. I have found that 100 hours a year is the breaking point. If you fly more than 100 hours a year, you are better off owning a plane. Under 100 hours a year, you are better off renting. Of course, the advantages of owning and having the plane when you want it is worth a lot. Airplane ownership is very expensive. Things will happen, things will break, and things will definitely go wrong. If you buy a plane, you had better have deep pockets. The least expensive thing that you will ever do is buy the plane. After that, they get very expensive. I have been flying for a couple of decades and have never even seen a $10,000 plane. Today, prices are extremely high! Also, be sure to fly very frequently. These planes will go down very quickly. Lack of use, and corrosion, is a plane's biggest enemy. I fly three to four times a week.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yeah, that makes total sense! I’d agree with that. 100 hours is a good number

[@magyodorferarnell]

Thanks

[@trevorfeaster5343]

Do I pay more owning my airplane than renting one....YES! But it's mine! I know how the maintenance is handled and I know what condition it will be in when I go to fly it because it will be exactly same condition when I flew it last. I enjoy airplane ownership with its ins and outs......sometimes things just don't have to make financial sense when it comes to fun toys.

[@FreePilotTraining]

That’s a 100% fact. This is definitely a huge advantage

[@alk672]

A really good point about Pipers tending to cost less than comparable Cessnas. Any idea why? They tend to cruise better, too.

[@FreePilotTraining]

They are a little bit less desirable due to some of their features that make them a little tougher to train in. Older Cherokees did have brakes on the co-Pilot side which is where the instructor sits, and I’ve found that they don’t usually climb quite as good. I’d like to make a video comparing the two planes more

[@alk672]

Great video, the guy obviously knows this stuff. A couple of notes though: 1. In my mind it is a very, very bad-no-good-terrible idea to buy an airplane for primary flight training. On top of all the great reasons outlined in this video, the main reason is that the vast majority of students never finish, and a lot of those who do stop flying forever soon after they pass (or fail) the checkride. They won't tell you that at any flight school, but that's how it is. Now you're stuck with an airplane you don't need or use - that could also have problems that make it unsellable because you knew nothing when you bought it. Don't do it, it's stupid. 2. Please, please! don't think of an ancient piece of junk as an investment. Only people with zero background in finance can think that. Just because it has already depreciated as much as it could possibly depreciate doesn't mean it's an investment. There is a reason it did that - it's because it's an ancient piece of junk. It's incredibly expensive to operate, completely impractical for 99% of people to fly, anything can break at any moment for no reason, and a random AD can ground it FOREVER with zero notice. Don't buy it as an investment; it's a very expensive luxury (yeah, I know) toy and a consumption item. 3. It can be tempting to perform a breakeven point analysis on your rent cost vs your buy cost (as was indeed suggested in this video). In my opinion, that's a big mistake. Same as rent a house vs buy a house analysis very few people can do it correctly to begin with, but here the problem is that you'll basically never really break even. Even if your numbers are correctly compared apples to apples you just can't account for additional risks that come with ownership. Your plane could get stuck away from base for weeks or months, it could go down with a problem so expensive to fix that you won't be able to afford it period (I know people with aircraft in shops and out on ramps for decades), and an AD could ground it permanently at any time. It just doesn't work. You don't buy because it's cheaper, you buy because you get freedom of not needing to schedule it or bring it back on time. That is the only reason and there can never be any other (outside of very specific scenarios like maybe time building). Otherwise great vid.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! I appreciate the comment

[@BoringFlightVids]

11 mins in so he may touch on it. But going the experimental route (im about half way through building a zenith) saves alot of money in basically every area..other than having to build the airplane. But im also "mechanically inclned" as a porsche automotive technician and engine builder lol. Still the zenith has been so easy to build so far that id recommend it to anybody that can follow directions to a T. And can also solve a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yes, this is something I also want to tackle. The problem with an experimental aircraft is that there are some restrictions on where you can fly, and you can’t use them to get paid or for compensation, but if you aren’t concerned about any of this stuff, it’s a great deal. Plus, if you build it yourself, you can do all the maintenance yourself, so you can definitely save money there too. Im jealous. I want to build an RV-15

[@SoloRenegade]

1:25 not advice I would give. I flew a LOT less renting than owning. This due to scheduling/availability issues with the rental aircraft. As soon as I bought an airplane and was freed from scheduling/availability issues, I flew 5x more in the first year alone than I did on a typical year renting. The freedom to go on longer trips, stay overnight without crippling fees, limitations on where i could take the aircraft.... And my cost per hour is now 1/3 what it was when renting, so even if I spent the same amount of money as a typical year of renting, I'd have 3x as many flight hours.

[@FreePilotTraining]

So, these are some great points. There are definitely some great advantages if you own your own aircraft. With that in mind, I think Seth’s $10k rule is still pretty accurate. If you’re flying 5x more, then it’s definitely worth it to own the plane

[@SoloRenegade]

@@FreePilotTraining my cost to own per year is $4200 (not counting gas/oil for flying). But my per hour flight cost comes out to be about $50-60/hr depending upon fuel prices. And I'm building a second aircraft that will add very little to my insurance, cost nothing extra to hangar (fits in the same hangar easily), and I get to do ALL of my own maintenance (and the engine costs maybe $1000-2000 to fully overhaul when it gets that far and can run on car gas). At that point I'll look to sell my first airplane, probably make money on it the way prices went, and then get another homebuilt to replace it. Having 2 airplanes means I always have one to fly if the other needs maintenance. Might even get myself a Helicycle or Mosquito later on too (they can cost less than my coworkers spend on a new truck or Tesla). I can fit 2 airplanes and a helicopter in my current hangar with ease. Goal is to get enough land to have my own runway/hangar too. People need to learn how to be smarter about aviation.

[@SethLakeDPE]

​@@SoloRenegade to be fair, Josh and I are discussing certified aircraft, not experimental home built. You are correct, if you own a very simple aircraft your ownership cost will be very low. In fact, I own a 1939 Taylorcraft and it costs me less than 3k per year in fixed costs and burns 4 gallons of 89 octane when I fly, it's great. However, when the wife and kids want to go on vacation, the Taylorcraft won't do us much good. An aircraft like a 172 or 182 work well for family trips. The homebuilt 4 seat market has some options as well, although they are all quite expensive as well. I've been in this industry for quite some time, and seen far too many people underestimate their fixed costs. If someone has been paying for a $1,000 Annual on a certified aircraft for years thinking they are getting a great deal, most of the time they are just kicking the can down the road. At some point maintenance will catch up. I've seen single engine Annuals exceed $20,000 on several occasions after years of deferred maintenance and "cheap" Annuals. In your case, it sounds like you've found the sweet spot for your mission and skill sets. That's great and I'm truly excited to see guys like you make it happen (your story reminds me of several friends I have) but unfortunately, most of the flying public don't have the skills, time, or resources to do what you've done. This video is really geared for those pilots looking to purchase a certified 4-seat single-engine aircraft.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@SethLakeDPE " to be fair, Josh and I are discussing certified aircraft, not experimental home built. " you made NO such distinction in your title or discussion that I saw. Regardless, most of what I have used as my case example is a certified Cessna. "However, when the wife and kids want to go on vacation, the Taylorcraft won't do us much good. " for most people that doesn't apply. Most people aren't married these days. Also, most people are just trying to afford flying at ALL, even if just flying solo, which is what MOST flying is, solo. If you want to fly and own and airplane, a person can absolutely do that. Also, if all you're looking for is a family xcountry cruiser, there are affordable experimental options. Arbitrarily discriminating against experimentals and being a stuck up snob is not helping people. Most new aircraft are experimentals for a reason, the ship has sailed on certified vs experimental decades ago. Keep in mind a Cessna 172 can be had affordably if people are smart about it. But neither is it a true 4-seater. "I've been in this industry for quite some time, and seen far too many people underestimate their fixed costs. If someone has been paying for a $1,000 Annual on a certified aircraft for years thinking they are getting a great deal, most of the time they are just kicking the can down the road. At some point maintenance will catch up. I've seen single engine Annuals exceed $20,000 on several occasions after years of deferred maintenance and "cheap" Annuals." Yes, many people do. But I track every penny I spend, and what I spend it on. I have spreadsheets tracking everything i buy going back over 10years. And not just aviation, I track EVERY penny i spend. I could overhaul my engine for $20k or less. Heck I didn't even spend that much on my airplane to begin with. It's been through annual many times, owner assisted, and has been annual for years before that by the same mechanics I work with now. I know the issues with it, and there are no major issue yet. The plane is so simple, it's hard to go wrong. I'm also a Mechanical Engineer, so it's not like I have no clue about such things. My experimental airplane will be even more affordable to fly/maintain. "but unfortunately, most of the flying public don't have the skills, time, or resources to do what you've done." but that's where you're wrong. And that's why i'm commenting. I used to listen to guys like you, and that's why i waited so long to buy my own airplane. Should have done it years earlier. One of my apparently innate skills is teaching (CFI, math, engineering, theoretical physics, military...). And I'm very good at making seemingly complex things stupid simple. And to that nd we're actually trying to create an aerospace STEM program where I focus on teaching about aircraft design and fabrication to aspiring engineers, pilots, mechanics, etc. This stuff is way easier than people make it out to be. "This video is really geared for those pilots looking to purchase a certified 4-seat single-engine aircraft." then you need to specify that explicitly. But if I were going to buy a 4 seat airplane today to fit the mission you describe, it would be a BD4C.

[@SethLakeDPE]

@@SoloRenegade, I seemed to have touched a nerve. I don't appreciate being called a "stuck-up snob," especially in the comments of a free video I produced to help folks make a good decision. Josh and I framed the conversation around a certified 4-seat single-engine airplane; you didn't use your "apparently innate skills" to pay attention: 7:07. Considering the tone of your comments, I understand your personality and why you would never need an aircraft with more than one seat, much less four. You do you, man. Cheers.

[@JSH1515]

Thanks! Where are you located.

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! I’m stationed in Little Rock Arkansas, but I’m traveling the country right now trying to find a new home

[@1bobharvey]

Just like flying itself, if you didn't write up the maintenance right in the log book. None of that work happened. Would you go and fly then not log it in your flight logbook? The work isnt done till the paperwork is complete.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Very true

[@zxr92]

Hangar availability is going to probably going to keep me from buying a plane. Tie downs are sold out too. I even tried other states. It's really depressing.

[@FreePilotTraining]

I know! It’s crazy. You may consider talking to a small airport in your area and seeing if there would be an opportunity to lease a lot from the airfield and building a hanger for yourself. Just a thought

[@Fiftyx60]

Another great video! Thanks!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks!

[@junetebarts1334]

Hangars are hard to come by where I live

[@FreePilotTraining]

There are a lot of places like that

[@bsdontop1000]

Currently looking for a decent but cheap starter plane that i can put roughly 1000-1500 hours on it.

[@Fjord_Driver]

I would hazard a guess, that most people who buy airplanes want to travel long distance with them to go visit friends and relatives. I don't think renting would be cost effective if you regularly want to fly out of state and spend Friday, Saturday, Sunday somewhere and come back to your local airport on Monday(if weather cooperates). Maybe for people who have money to throw out the window. Many lower income people on hourly wages may be eyeing the dream. But the dream is a big money pit. If you want the glorified bus ride, and are motivated to do it, you can find ways. But it will cost you big time. You are increasing your risk, your liability, and your expenses in life. Sure it will save you hours of drive time depending on how often you go visit friends and relatives and how far away they live, but you can't pull off the road and go check out interesting sites like you can when you're in a car. Bathroom breaks, stopping for lunch, etc all become more problematic. Weather becomes a huge factor. Do you HAVE to get back home by Monday at 8am for work? The weather where you landed may have other plans. Most of the time I visited a local airport, there were plenty of old airplanes on tie downs outside at the mercy of every storm that rolled through. I saw some of them get flipped by high winds and poor tie downs. Maybe the owners didn't care because the plane had not been used for decades. Many of them sure did not look airworthy. Bugs, birds, mice, hail, high winds, heavy snow loads, ice storms, sub zero temps. Still want to spend 50k and store that thing outside? Sure you can spend a lot less and get an ultralight and have fun locally. But you're not flying from Chicago to Miami in that. Take a look at the for sale ads on Barnstormers. Quite often you see the comment "lost medical must sell." How is your health? Aviation is a very expensive hobby. Sure you can eat Ramen noodles every week for 20 years and live in a crappy cheap apartment with 3 other people and make it work. How bad do you really want to do it? And don't forget when you land at a distant airport out of state, you may have no access to ground transportation. Uber and Lyft are not everywhere. If you want to go to town, you had better have planned ahead. But if you're a cheap Ramen noodle type, chances are you won't spend the money for any rental vehicles, or taxis. How badly do you want to save that drive time to go visit friends and relatives because you have the 10 to 14 hour drive if you take the car? Ultimately it is less costly to either drive yourself, or take a commercial flight, even with all the hassles. Can't stand commercial aviation hassles, then maybe you can find a way financially. But the average number of hours flown by private pilots on an annual basis hovers around 65 hours. That is not much flight time. How much free time do you have to keep your skills up to date? Or are you going to buy that plane, have your first year or two fun, and then watch it sit and collect dust in the hanger or out on a tie down. Winter flying? Better plan well ahead and get to the airport at like 4am. Shoveling snow to get your plane out. Pre-heating...how? Does that plane you bought even have decent working heat so you don't freeze your feet off? Are the door and all control surfaces frozen with a layer of ice? Aviation is fun they said.

[@ozairakhtarcom]

There's also a term to own a plane with other owners. Does it mean cost effective?

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yes, it’s called fractional ownership. It’s definitely worth looking into. Personally, I wouldn’t be a partner on a plane with more than one other person and it’s a good idea to know that person really well

[@ozairakhtarcom]

@@FreePilotTraining why not make a video on that topic and with Pro's and Con's of it 😊

[@willburrito9710]

The costs of used airplanes has broken the sound barrier. When I see 172Ns with new upholstery, knots2U flap mods, good paint and windscreen, 2 axis Autopilot, going for 180k$, I think it sort of kills the mojo of plane buying. I fly in coastal Maine. You need a hangar. But like all other real estate it’s becoming a joke to acquire. There are a ton of things to overlook during the pre but. One thing for sure, go through the log books carefully. The pre-buy should be a sort of mini annual. Do not have the AP who signed off on the annuals do the inspection. Arrange and fly it someplace else and pay for a fresh set of eyes on it.

[@FreePilotTraining]

I know. It’s insane. There’s no way things can stay the way they are. I’ve looked at planes before and the owner was really adamant against a pre-buy because the plane was in annual, then they want their mechanic to to the pre-buy. Talk about a red flag… lol

[@longshot8000]

@Will Burrito: Wouldn’t it be safer to have a mechanic come to the plane, rather than flying it to him/her? After all, you’re paying them to determine if it is airworthy/legit. Also, you could more easily be accused of damaging something, etc.

[@willburrito9710]

@@longshot8000 in my case I flew with the owner. We went to another airport about 40 miles away. Of course if you can do it the other way, go for it. It might cost more… but still don’t depend on someone who may have been rubber stamping or neglecting things. In my case taking the spinner off the prop revealed what looked like cracks at the base of the prop. I insisted the prop be further inspected which I paid for after the rest of the plane had been inspected.

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@longshot8000 it’s not uncommon to have mechanics come in from another airfield. Sometimes it costs a little more, but it can be worth it

[@willworknow]

Don't you have to purchase insurance with a rental?

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re not legally required to do so, but I highly recommend having it

[@dwighttaylor5107]

So amazing thanks

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for watching

[@Bob-cd5pp]

I bought a plane with 20 hours on my PPL never got my Private Lic due to having so much flying all over on my student Lic .

[@FreePilotTraining]

That works. You’d just have to make sure you get your logbook reendoresed ever 3 months. Plus there’s quite a few limitations

[@pauljensen4773]

Does the $10,000 include fuel?

[@FreePilotTraining]

That’s a good question. I don’t think it does. BUT, I know you can get some of the stuff he’s talking about for a little cheaper if you shop around depending on the area you’re in

[@SethLakeDPE]

No, my $10,000 doesn't include fuel. The numbers we discuss are all fixed costs although I did mention budgeting at least $2,000 a year for unplanned maintenance expenses. Fuel, oil, filters, and unscheduled maintenance are all examples of variable expenses and entirely dependent on your personal flying habits and the aircraft you fly. Please keep in mind that this number is a conservative national average. There are places you could live that would be much cheaper just as there are places that are much more expensive. Aircraft ownership cost is highly dependent on your location. If you live in Manhattan you should probably double or triple the number. If you live in a cornfield in Nebraska you could probably cut the number in half.

[@xenimaging]

Two different KZbinrs that I follow and never imagined would end up in the same vjdeo

[@FreePilotTraining]

I love working with Seth! We’ve made a few other videos together in the past. He did my tailwheel endorsement last year kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKqznYpsiLd9m6s

[@CaptJimDavis]

With all do respect to the people on this video in my own experience I say "BUY, BUY, BUY" for many reasons. First and most important piece of the training for a Private Pilot License is the "Convenience" of the access to a plane at a moments notice. Most PPL students are good weather pilots. They don't go out on days winds over 15 knots, overcast, foggy conditions etc. On any given Wednesday can you figure it out how the conditions are going to be by next Thursday with 100% guarantee. Of course not. Then it becomes a nightmare having appointments and then cancel them due to weather conditions or airplane's availability etc. etc. BUT the most important thing is when you are signed off for SOLO... Then, instead of going all that hassle, you wake up in the morning and realize it is a gorgeous day to fly, get to the airport and voila, you'll be flying... AND flying what? Not a school airplane that 10-20 maybe even more students flew after your last flight in that one. Does the engine sound a little different, is there a different vibration compared to when you fly it the last time.... You'll not be worrying in all of that... There are great little airplanes like Cessna 150 and Piper Tomahawks available on the market at 30,000 range... If you get a loan all you put down is about 15% which is around $4500/ $5000... Then your monthly $25,000 loan payments will be around $300 - $325 range... That is a 10 yr loan. Fly your plane for a few years. Take care of it and sell it for more than you purchased. I have purchased my PA28 Cherokee 140 in March 2016 before my first ever lesson for $21,000. First I've found a flight school and sellers flew the plane to their location, their mechanics did the pre-purchase inspection and when it passed with flying colors (pun intended) I bought it. Then sold it for 11 months later (after 74 hrs flying including lessons and solo) for $27,500... Then I bought my second plane and for $24,000 (Piper Tomahawk) flew it 4 years and about 220 hrs then sold it for $39,000. I have never ever worried about plane's availability during any phase of my training. Yes, it cost some money up front (down payment of $5000) but when I was signed off for solo, the convenience of waking up in the morning and seeing it's a beautiful day for flying and then taking off on Runway 32 within 20-30 minutes was PRICELESS! I live only 1 mile away from my local airport BTW. Currently I am about to purchase my 4th airplane. Nothing fancy. Possibly another Tomahawk or Cessna 150 but this time I am looking to get my IFR rating... Good luck on your endeavors and fly safe all!

[@zappatx]

"More time at the casino" for some of us - we'll get there. lol

[@FreePilotTraining]

😂

[@iliegotca1049]

You the Best I want to become e pilot Are you have a pilot scool?

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! I don’t have a flight school

[@markor2476]

Wow can you actually buy a 172 in the States for 30k?!

[@FreePilotTraining]

It would be extremely difficult right now. About the lowest I’ve seen is $50-60k

[@adrianjesus4040]

My question is how do you guys find 30-40k planes I’ve been looking at trade a plane and controller but they all over 55k for a piper from the 60s with bad interior ugly paint job and mediocre avionics

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yeah, they’ve gone up exponentially in the last year. They’re are a few out there though.

[@adrianjesus4040]

@@FreePilotTraining thank you I’ll keep this search going I appreciate you responding just cause of that you got yourself a subscriber

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@adrianjesus4040 thanks! I’m in the same boat. I want to purchase a smaller tailwheel and I’d like to spend less than $35k if I can

[@leefoster4133]

Disagree, sort of. If someone wants to buy a plane and the goal is to fly about or maybe very short hops. Then light sport would be good. You don't have to rent a hanger BUT, I would store it under some sort of covering. You can move the aircraft from and to the airport on a trailer. So, for example, I live on a small farm, I have a barn, and so I could store it in there with the airport 3 miles away. But if I had a plane I would have to replace barn as it's not completely closed in my case. Now, if you are going to fly distance then I would rent as the maintenance cost is going to likely be higher than what was mentioned. Because you will have 300 and 600 hour maintenance . Not, that you don't have it on light sport but you can perform more maintenance on light sport than you can on larger aircraft if you don't have an A&P. All of this been said; light sport can be just as pricey. Worse case I have seen lately was 120,000 usd. Short of is, if you have a light sport, a hanger on your property or garage depending on size, a truck and trailer then I would go light sport. If that becomes to be too much then I would sell it and go back to renting. It could be a cheaper route.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Light sport is definitely another option to consider. This really wasn’t meant to discourage people from buying, but really get them to thinking about the things that go into aircraft ownership. I m hoping to have another video next week where we talk about 7 things new owners should know before buying

[@leefoster4133]

@@FreePilotTraining I don't either. But I think allot of people want to buy a plane as they work on their basic licensing or IFR. Understandable given the cost but buying a plane that like the ones I used 40 years ago to learn to fly is insane and dangerous. Metal breaks down over time and it forms micro cracks which becomes a full crack and then you could have a flight surface fall off in flight. If it’s a major section of a wing then all you can do is ride it down as there is nothing you can do to stop it and recover. I have also worked in aircraft maintenance and I know about all of that and seen it in the USAF. So, am more of a conservative on it to where I think any aircraft older than 25 years should be grounded and scraped. I know a bunch of them flying in Canada that have been flying since the second world war (DC3). I know of a young girl of 24 I think flying a bonanza that is 85 years old. All of these aircraft should be grounded. In 2000 I was saying that all of the space shuttles should have been replaced. If they were then the last one lost could have been avoided. So, am against buying some plane that is old as I know it’s an accident waiting to happen. So, that’s why I support buying some light sport that is around 10 years old and they can work on their licensing. I wished I could fly again but there is no way I can get pass a medical now.

[@mytech6779]

​@@leefoster4133 You can claim whatever you want about job experiance but your statements are evidence that you only have a half understanding of materials lifespan. Especially when you expand it to such a ridiculously unfounded blanket declaration. Secondly, neither of the shuttle accidents were in anyway related to materials fatigue, they were both due to known risky material selections. The challenger was due to one time use seals not suited to the launch temperature, and Columbia was thermal tiles damaged by a block of insulation that was not fully affixed during assembly and fell off the tank during launch.The external tank couldn't have material fatigue because they are also one time use due to burning up on re-entry. (Some earlier rockets were actually designed to shed insulation panels during launch, you can see it raining down like frost or snow, the insulation being mainly used while waiting on the launch pad. The shuttle didn't purposefully shed insulation, but they did change the insulation system a couple of times.

[@leefoster4133]

@@mytech6779 You are going to put your pathetic background against my work experience? Now, that’s bloody rich mate. I don’t have to go far to make that proof. How many aircraft are kept in operation by the military around the world after a 25 year use of time? I can just think of one type of aircraft; B52. What has it been removed from service? It’s too damn expensive to replace! So, they don’t fly them as much trying get as much out of the airframe as possible. Know it! Seen it! Was stationed on that base but I was moved into the headquarters then and not on the line. Here! Learn what NDI (nondestructive inspection) is; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondestructive_testing. All metals crack! All metals corrode! All metals go through metal fatigue. Metal fatigue is defined as weakened condition induced in metal parts of machines, vehicles, or structures by repeated stresses or loadings, ultimately resulting in fracture under a stress much weaker than that necessary to cause fracture in a single application. Why do you think the airlines replace their fleet over time; metal fatigue. The cost to repair it increases to such a cost it’s not practical to keep it in service. They let the buyer worry about that because the buyer is thinking they are getting a deal which they aren’t in the long run. Lets look at some of the aircraft accidents that I can remember. BOAC Flight 781 and BOAC Flight 911 crashed because of metal fatigue. The side panels near the door divided in flight because the rivets lost the ability to kept the skin attached to the airframe. It split down the side and ripped up to the top and down the other side on Flight 781. On Flight 911 the vertical stabilizer failed which damaged the horizontal stab. This caused major design changes by use of rip away panels that was recommended by the AAIB (Air Accident Investigation Board). Let see what other one can I remember that had Metal fatigue issues? December 19, 2005, Chalk's Ocean Airways Flight 101 from Fort Lauderdale, Florida, United States to Bimini, Bahamas. What happened? The right wing came off! Why? Metal fatigue! You need to learn to listen and learn before you act like you know something that clearly you don’t! Go away mate and learn whatever it is you think you do. If it’s a pilot then learn more about the aircraft because it’s clear you don’t have an AP license.

[@recordingwhiz]

for best audio, be no more than 1' away from microphone and speak "in to" the microphone. audio makes a video more watchable.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks for the tip

[@Venix-]

People are finding usable planes for $30k? Everything online looks to start in the $50k range with $70k being more realistic for an IFR rated plane. A 172 without an engine that needs an overhaul and IFR rated is north of $100k.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Lol, that’s your problem. You’re looking at Cessna 172s. I absolutely love them, but they are the most expensive training plane for what they are. Consider buying a Piper Cherokee 140. They are awesome planes and you can easily find them in the 30s

[@Venix-]

@@FreePilotTraining I look at all makes and models because I want something to build time. Any frame with low engine hours and a 430 or better gps is $60k starting. 😥Some 150s are in the $40k range, but almost all of them are VFR only. If I could get an IFR plane for $30k w/gps and 700+ hours before major id pick it up tomorrow.

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@Venix- yeah, the IFR part is what’s hard

[@nonDescriptAviation]

I've heard the saying, "Only the rich or foolish purchase planes." I'm not rich but i'm still looking to buy... so... 🤥 The way I see it, my wife likes to look at houses online and I like to look at the planes. 😂

[@FreePilotTraining]

😂 So true. I’m also looking at another plane. I must be foolish as well. Lol

[@billiondollardan]

With plane prices having skyrocketed recently, I think I'm going to rent while I get my license. I wish I could predict the future to know if the economic collapse is really going to hit in the next year. I think it's enough of a probability that I don't want to hold the bill to a plane that I bought for 80k only to have it worth 50k by 2025

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yeah. That is a huge concern of mine too

[@justjon907]

Here in Alaska, 99% of GA planes are just tied down😂

[@FreePilotTraining]

I’ve noticed! That’s insane!

[@barnard-baca]

Correction: Should you buy an airplane..not “and airplane” ;)

[@FreePilotTraining]

Lol, I stutter a little sometimes

[@therustypilot3452]

Whatever, Go buy an airplane…… Jesus what have I done.

[@FreePilotTraining]

😂

[@fingerhorn4]

Do NOT buy any aeroplane. At most, share one, but don't buy one outright individually. You will be tied to a ton of expenses. Flying is extremely expensive, however modest the aircraft. Aeroplanes and flying in general have become UNTENABLE for anyone except the very well off. No journey for "business" ever justifies the cost. As inconvenient as airline ticket transportation is, owning and running the cheapest GA aircraft is unbelievably expensive, and it's not that convenient anyway. By all means buy an aeroplane if it gives you pleasure, but not a single aircraft will ever be an economic advantage for plain transport. The GA world has outpriced itself for many years now.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yeah, it can take a lot to outweigh the cost of ownership. However, there’s an amazing feeling that comes with aircraft ownership, and if you are willing to bite the bullet a little bit, it can actually give you motivation that might not have otherwise been there.

[@willburrito9710]

The 10,000$ figure is now 15k. Consider joint ownership with someone you know and trust.

[@SoloRenegade]

my hangar is $2000/yr My insurance is less than $700/yr My typical annual/Mx is less than $1500/yr I do any allowed maintenance myself. In the first few years of ownership I've only had ~$2000 of unplanned expenses total. I burn 4.2gph on average. I'm flying between 50-100hrs per year. Buy simple airplanes. My per hour flight cost is 1/3 that of renting, so right off the bat I'm getting 3x the flight hours per year for the same expense, and it only gets better from there as the flying hours go up. I rented for about 6yrs before buying. I flew 5x as many hours the first year of owning than I did on a typical year renting due to availability of the aircraft, cost, and lack of restrictions on things like overnight trips. And have flown more and more hours every year since, now approaching logging 10x as many hours per year owning than renting. This will all get even better once my homebuilt airplane is finished (annual/maintenance mostly).

[@willburrito9710]

@@SoloRenegade I agree that location and type of aircraft will have the most effect on yearly costs. Buy an airplane type that you expect to own for many years. If you’re young and think you’re going to move through the ranks to ATP get a plane you can train IFR and puts lots of hours on it. If you’re an older aviator with no aspirations other than taking the challenge and having fun, buy what you can afford understanding that surprises will happen. This book; “Buying and Owning Your Own Airplane” by James Ellis is still a good resource.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@willburrito9710 I'm not looking for purchasing advice. I already own multiple aircraft, and my situation is rather unusual, nothing like any advice you're trying to give. My comments are about showing people it IS possible to own an airplane if a person is smart and realistic about their expectations.

[@grimspyder0001]

Does everyone that own a plane a millionaire? Even when i was making $200K it did seem like it made any sense financially to fly a plane much less own one. I've always wanted to fly but, WOW! Is the goal of the aviation community to keep as many people out of it?

[@FreePilotTraining]

It seems that way doesn’t it?

[@CaptJimDavis]

Not really... Unless you are looking to buy a Cirrus SR22T... There are many good airplanes out there much less than a car price. Does every car owner a millionaire... Yes there are good advice on these type of videos but if everybody applied the "what is the best thing to do" rules they are talking about General Aviation fleet will be 1/4th or less than the current numbers due to hangar availabilities. Go to any airport around the cities with populations larger than 50,000 you'll see tons of aircraft of all types parked on the tarmacs. So the advice of " get your hangar first" is maybe great for Elon Musk and his private jet but not for many of us who fly a $30,000 Cessna 150.

[@grimspyder0001]

@@CaptJimDavis About what is the average cost of being able to fly. A 30k plane? I mean average. I in know it can change with how much you fly, the distance, etc... but for the average person, who will fly the average amount. What is the average cost?

[@CaptJimDavis]

@@grimspyder0001 In my experience the cost is the same or a little less compared to renting for average pilot who flies 50 hrs annually when you add the cost of annual, fuel, insurance, tarmac parking fee and few little other expenses. Cost will be between $100-$120/hr. But convenience of having your own plane like I mentioned before is, priceless… Plus I can almost guarantee you if you keep your plane 2 or more years you'll get most of your money you spent while flying it back at the time of the sale. Because unlike cars, these alder 1965-1980 model planes appreciate in value, especially if you fly often and take good care of them. If renting was so convenient method none of us will ever own a car and instead get a taxicab whenever we needed to go somewhere right? Even though the car values depreciate we still deal with insurance, fuel, registration fees, maintenance etc and own a car just for the sake of convenience. This is no different except, your investment value stays at a better rate compared to our cars. So don't apply “what is the best thing to do” rule to flying but rather go with “what is the best thing to do FOR YOU”… Good luck all, and fly safe!

[@ahetzel9054]

Where are people buying a plane for 30k?!!?!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Lol. Not anymore

[@ahetzel9054]

@@FreePilotTraining best price I found was a 67 Cherokee for 28k for a 1/4th share but it wasnt in great condition nor was it even close to the state I live in 😂 Do you think prices will come down in the future or are they just gonna keep going up like this housing market?

[@seattleraf]

Did you ever make the follow up video mentioned at the end? Love your videos by the way! First one I stumbled on last year was a 30 minute overview about weather theory. Edit: found it! kzbin.info/www/bejne/bGayo3iqqKiYa8k

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you! Glad you found it! Yes, that video on weather has done surprisingly well

[@GraceThroughFaith-PaPa-John]

So essentially, only the rich can ever own a plane. Gotcha...

[@FreePilotTraining]

Well, I don’t completely agree with Seth’s numbers, but it does cost a lot to own