Competitive Hacked Pokemon Just Banned... Substitute?!

[@mjdxp5688]

Honestly, Good as Gold feels like if that kid on the playground who makes up new rules on the spot and is able to dodge every attack made an ability

[@dudono1744]

Good as Gold is very similar to the ability Godlike in the fan game pokemon empyrean, and that ability is only given to some bosses to avoid cheese strats.

[@megasolarflame6882]

Good as god man

[@MyHandleIsAplaceholder]

Good as Gold looks like Taunt as an ability

[@KiraSlith]

Wonderguard was the same when put on many Gen 3 mons.

[@dorkfish1275]

wait they made a bs ability to avoid strats to make a fight manageable? or is the boss manageable anyway.

[@codenamec.a.t2480]

Here before people complain about the tier they’ll never play

[@hailthequeenFM]

Smogon players can't adapt to a status moves. They sucks, just adapt you unskilled dumbass. /joking

[@Gich101]

I second this motion

[@Blanktester685]

i do play the tier just because you dgaf doesn't mean others dont.

[@Mimagito]

​@@Blanktester685You're literally the kind of people this message is _not_ directed towards. Read again, please.

[@watery2211]

Just use sound moves smh my head /s

[@thepunisher6674]

I always love finding out about weird bans in weird tiers I do admit substitute is a weird ban but it makes sense

[@gwenyon4939]

Funny thing is this isn’t even the craziest thing that’s happened in balanced hackmons recently

[@TheRiddler6129]

Tell me, what is the craziest thing?

[@gwenyon4939]

There’s data for every dexited mon and form in scarlet/violet (yes, including megas, primals, etc). Since balanced hackmons aims to be accurate to what you can hack onto a cartridge version of the game, all of those mons are being added into the tier august 1st.

[@crarlo]

additionally, they’re removing the ability to directly send out form changes of pokemon that occur in battle, an example being that you are no longer allowed to immediately send out palafin hero, instead forcing the player to activate zero to hero as you would in ubers

[@gwenyon4939]

Once again a change that’s made to stay accurate to the cartridge. Funnily enough, this also applies to xerneas, as it technically has an out-of-battle form, making it ability locked into fairy aura.,

[@timeweoya]

​@@gwenyon4939Yo that's kinda hype? Do you think the dexited mons data is just a contingency or are GF actually planning to bring back the national dex?

[@mhx5071]

Good to know there's one tier where Zamazenta Crowned is broken

[@wherearemypowers]

Zamazenta was good in BH last gen too so it's consistent at least.

[@senny-]

Wasn't it broken in OU just months ago?,

[@milkboy9339]

@joaquin5796 ???? Are you kidding me? So if you can't even really use Zamazenta-Crowned anyway, why did they still ban sub??? Ban Good As Gold, and then Zamazenta is trash! If it's in it crowded form you just burn it or Leech Seed before the sub and since it doesn't have leftys it just has to eat the damage, and if it is in its Hero form so it can run an item you can just toxic it before the sub. And you can always get rid of its sub by running Tidy Up.

[@milkboy9339]

@@senny- To be fair though a box art legendary only just now being broken in OU is kind of sad right? It's like if you let a high schooler go up against a bunch of toddlers in basketball for years and he's only just now to good to play with them. Like bro, why were you ever even so trash that they let you play with them in the first place??

[@doomknightsepulchure]

@@senny- Yes but it also had at least a solid 100 BST above everything else in the tier

[@AEtherPi]

I read 'Sub' and my brain filled in 'Submission'. I was expecting to hear about the wildest strategy that made one of the worst fighting type moves broken in hackmons. I'm disappointed, mostly in my reading ability.

[@WillyLongLegs]

You play too much gen 1 i think.

[@sashiboop]

Back in the day prankster topsy-turvy was my favorite way to shut down setup sweepers in hackmons, but with it no longer affecting dark types and the move itself eventually being removed it's a shame to see the funniest strategy ever lost to time...

[@namkwal]

i also loved using magic bounce setup sweepers to embarass the hell out of people who tried to topsy turvy me too that move was so fun

[@lemonadogirl4082]

Never fear-we still have Final Gambit Blissey.

[@eyesfullofsky9776]

I used to run Prankster Heart Swap. It not only granted my Pokémon the stat bonuses, but also bypassed Magic Bounce due to having the same effect if used by the opponent.

[@davidegaruti2582]

​@@lemonadogirl4082innards out blissey😲

[@danielbrooks9728]

I’ve never seen substitute used in hackmons before gen 9, but with this generation I’m not surprised.

[@ultimaterecoil1136]

Sometimes baton pass would use it as well as setup sets since after their setup move possible stab and their mandatory ability ignoring move they didn’t really need much else so why not throw on sub to screw the imposter chanseys

[@KLIXORthe]

It used to be that the prevalence of Spectral Thief made it not worth using, but that's been gone for a while, then good as gold came into the picture, and now its broken.

[@Fail_Inc]

In Gen 7 I used a slow baton pass substitute Zygarde complete with poison heal regigigas as a sweeper immune to 90% of counter play. Got to like 1500 on the ladder with it

[@shanemurphy6130]

@@Fail_Inc yeah I did the same in gen 8

[@dokkino7105]

Wonder guard to prevent spectral thief and substitute ingrain to prevent roar is a good strat in hackmon once you set it up

[@thod-thod]

I feel that good-as-gold was a lot more ban-worthy than substitute itself

[@marchadow3957]

bam

[@davidegaruti2582]

Yeah ... Like mold breaker isn't as usable in gen 9 , as it was in gen 7 , Also if magic guard is banned there is less reason to run mold breaker ...

[@ricardoludwig4787]

Feels a little weird to ban sub instead of good as gold, but I'm not the one playing the tier so

[@cassiolins1203]

Thats what i thought too

[@thepurplemudkip9998]

he literally explained why in the video lmao

[@Skullhawk13]

@@thepurplemudkip9998an explanation existing doesn’t mean it’s automatically right. Plus “weird” is subjective, so they’re just expressing a valid opinion.

[@namkwal]

an ability is infinitely more limiting than one moveslot so

[@sideways5153]

I feel like the difference is that good as gold is still reasonable to deal with using diverse strategies, while substitute allows bulky mons to straight up ignore a lot of the reasonable options for dealing with them. Also worth noting that choosing what to ban is an informed decision; the community is pushing their meta away from sub/stall and more towards flashy, crazy combos. On some level they probably just banned the part that was less fun to play with/against.

[@kimi8472]

I love how so many bans and suspects are due to good as gold, yet the ability is never suspected itself. If substitute and gliscor are suddenly “broken” after being in competitive meta for 10+ because a new pokemon/ability, maybe it’s not the gliscor/substitute

[@SpectorLKM]

Gliscor wasn’t suddenly broken. It was already an amazing defense pivot with great longevity. Its ability to easily get hazards up was the main issue. Dengo just made those hazards stay. Yes GaG was an issue but acting like Scor wasn’t also an issue shows a lack of knowledge. Also sub was definitely a problem. GaG was not an issue big enough to ban outside of Sub sets. Sub was also incredible with Sound Proof.

[@davidegaruti2582]

​@@SpectorLKMgood as gold is just broken m8 , It shuts down soo many options without any input from the player doing the shutting down , And is overcentralizing since there is only one pokemon with that hability ...

[@therealsunstrike]

Me when I expect Shed Tail but hear Substitute (the move) got banned

[@CAMSLAYER13]

Didn't that also get banned?

[@therealsunstrike]

@@CAMSLAYER13 likely so

[@KonkyDonk]

While we are on the topic of wacky gamemodes, there is a cool group chat on showdown called OM mashups and as it suggests it combines multiple other metagames and combines them into a single gamemode. Imagine things like almost any ability + shared power or something like tier shift and scalemons where pokemon with low base stats and arent used much suddenly become a lot stronger.

[@homespunheroes]

In fairness, my wife banned my use of Substitute during our date nights, so I guess they have a point

[@lemonadogirl4082]

The virgin "only ban substitute" vs the CHAD "ban substitute AND good as gold"

[@HillaryClinton9-11]

Ye

[@usernametaken017]

Ah, yes. The gamefreak approach (looks at dark void)

[@Gnolte]

I thought you could somehow use substitute as a pokemon and it got banned for some reason

[@justin4296]

Lmao

[@RalorPenwat]

I do think it's silly with Mold Breaker existing. It counteracts a number of strategies reliant on abilities, and if one like this is becoming this prominent then maybe ignoring its niche for opportunity cost was a mistake. It's not like this isn't still a strong strategy without substitute and I will not be surprised to see mold breaker come back anyway.

[@mr.lonkman4644]

That thumbnail was honestly top tier

[@Iamverykarpy]

i agree because ive literally made almost the exact same thumbnail myself lmao

[@twobadour]

Reminds me of NathanLikesChicken

[@coyraig8332]

So basically it's not strong because of the move itself, it's strong because of what else you can do. Kinda surprised it took so long.

[@dylanbosley4139]

I mean, it happened to shed tail

[@spookyscarylamppost3431]

You miss the most important part. Of what you CAN’T do. Substitute is banned because Good As Gold pairs well with it. Spectral Thief both bypass Substitute and Good as Gold and was the most common way to stop bulky sweeper in past HACKMON generations. Problem is, it isn’t in the game. Sure, it’ll probably mean that Good As Gold setup sweeper will just use normal types to be unaffected if it was, but that’s more predictable and manageable. The fact that a single move or ability can shift the meta so heavily shows how insane of a game Pokémon is on a competitive level.

[@doomknightsepulchure]

@@spookyscarylamppost3431 To be fair, real pokemon isn't that insane. Given that Balanced Hackmons is essentially a chimera of almost every single move, ability, mechanic, pokemon, etc, with obscenely broken combos that were never intended to be balanced, the insane part is that this is actually a functional metagame and has been for generations.

[@spookyscarylamppost3431]

@@doomknightsepulchure True, but for me, Hackmon being a viable meta isn't that crazy. After all, there's a lot of intervention to make the game mode playable. The amount of bans speak volume to that and how much work has been done to make Hackmon as close to competitively viable. My last statement in the reply was more so in a game genre kind of thinking. I mean, looking at Chess, you can just lose a couple material as long as you have position advantage. In RPG if a character/weapon is nerfed, you have a replacement. In MOBA, if a hero got nerfed or a gun got gutted in an FPS, you always have other options and it's not entirely meta defining. In Pokemon, the single lack of item, move, ability, 10 stat points, or typing is the difference of you being viable to a gimmick at best. And I find that charmingly unique to this game.

[@CoralReaper707]

History seems to be repeating itself with moves that can create subs.

[@butteredsalmonella]

At least theres one tier where Giratina-Altered and Zamazenta-C are really good Pokemon.

[@rugino3614]

Good to know zamazenta is eating well somewhere out there

[@lipika2841]

A good chunk of signature moves & abilities introduced in Gen9 especially were designed to be exclusive to a select few mons, otherwise they'd cause chaos as seen here in BH. Also, Zamazenta finally did something over her sister Zacian.

[@KimFareseed]

To solve a problem is one thing, but to solve said problem in a way, that minimizes the colateral damage, is something much harder.

[@redtube8667]

I'd love to see more BH videos from you! It's a super underrated tier

[@Toothache42]

If only Snatch was around these days, this seems like a viable option to counter this particular strategy

[@unluckyomens370]

Would snatch work against good as gold?

[@Toothache42]

@unluckyomens370 Oof I didn't consider that, but given how it works probably not. Shame though, I liked the move even if it was only situationally useful

[@echo5172]

So what im hearing is that the most powerful pokemon in hackmons is the funny little green doll

[@Official_ViperYT]

I dont need substitute, I have over 50 million power in rise of kingdoms

[@ryansauer321]

Freezai got the Wolfey editor on this one it looks good!

[@HillaryClinton9-11]

Who

[@josephseffy]

This is the nearest we got to a actually zamazenta with good defensive set

[@basicmeme1040]

I love it but there are some straight broken sets. Then some fun things that are more basic like what if alakazam had psycho boost or guillotine pomemon had no guard

[@gufishanemometer6450]

You hyped up freedom cup a lot. Are you gonna cover the playoffs games?

[@figmentinfinity8259]

Of course not because freedom cup is made to be terrible.

[@calliopehu1924]

The second final game featured both players running stall, rolling the dice on fissure until one player landed it 3 times, and won. it's funny because it turns out that the official rules are a little imbalanced, but in a completely different way than smogon players anticipated. evasion moves and baton pass were mediocre, stall and defensive tactics are perfectly viable. seems like there's a lot more counterplay for cheesy strategy than smogon tends to understand

[@victory8928]

Its odd at times. Like in Stabmons Palafin is not banded even though in rain that bugger can ko less bulky teams if you see a rain team with palafin and can’t shut down the rain you are dead cause tons of waters have surging strike and jet punch. Then dragonpult and dragonite is banned cause they have better stab moves. Tbf azumaril would have been broken in the tier cause jet punch surging strike belly drum with torque

[@MissinDaSylveon]

I only played Gen 6 and 7 bh… but man the bans just keep getting crazier in later generations.

[@PlatinumMage]

Gen 6 ph is better than every bh

[@davidegaruti2582]

​@@PlatinumMageyeah 6 and 7 are easily top tier : you can use sturdy shedinja to counter no guard sheer cold , and in turn use mold breaker to counter shedinja , Lots of options really ...

[@knowwhoiamyet]

Idk much about competitive pokemon but the concept of building rules around a format thats foundation is built upon the concept of breaking the rules is really funny to me on paper.

[@yeezusfan8372]

Im just here to complain about a tier I have never played and will never play.

[@demi-femme4821]

Me, who plays mostly Nat Dex BH: "I don't have such weaknesses".

[@dtc2412]

fingers crossed that ndbh stays after the new changes to regular bh though

[@vanesslifeygo]

lol

[@Dakress23]

RIP substitute plush in balanced hackmons (of all places).

[@rubengoldman5830]

rare footage of zamazenta being useful

[@dogemaster9676]

3:55 i lost the PP war to my ex wife's new boyfriend

[@HillaryClinton9-11]

Benos

[@onadaTotihotiH]

Something about hearing that Roar is a “status” move made my brain short circuit for a split second

[@DaniDoyle]

Hello my name is little Tommy and I think this ban is dumb btw I don't play this format and didn't watch the video and don't play competitive Pokemon and haven't played a pokemon game since yellow version but I'm still obviously right. 🤬

[@HillaryClinton9-11]

Hello Tommy

[@ctoooc]

Lmao

[@DaniDoyle]

​@@gnomefrompinkertonsomething regarding "tomboy" would probably be your best bet if you wanted to make a pun about the fact I chose a mans name as the fake name 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@wishythefishy]

We really got the universe where good as gold exists.

[@Lordmewtwo151]

Having watched the video yesterday (and having some time to reflect), here are a couple of further thoughts. In my opinion, Good as Gold should have been banned over Substitute. While losing Substitute does nerf bulky set-up sweepers, they can still more-or-less pull off the same basic strategy, i.e., set up free of worry from moves like Taunt, Parting Shot, Will-o-wisp (especially for physical attackers) etc. As for Soundproof+Substitute, just ban having Soundproof and Substitute on the same Pokemon. Granted, if there is no Baton Pass clause in Balanced Hackmons, then there is nothing preventing a Pokemon using Substitute to Baton Pass it to a teammate with Soundproof. But in that case, just reinstate (or instate as the case may be) the Baton Pass clause into Balanced Hackmons.

[@M.W.2]

Othworm made someone rage so hard they banned the move

[@-.-Infinity-.-]

THE THUMBNAIL 😂

[@tjdasdada3786]

So why not ban good as gold, a very over powered ability, instead of substitute. Saying "soundproof" is shit since soundproof has been in pokemon since gen 3 and never ever caused problems like good as gold

[@HillaryClinton9-11]

IDK, you should ask someone else, I don't really know anything about Pokemon.

[@codenamec.a.t2480]

Good as Gold isn’t the overpowered part, it’s Substitute. It’s like choosing to ban Scolipede instead of Baton Pass because “oh well Scolipede is the broken one, baton pass has been in Pokémon since gen 2 and not caused any problems before it was used on setup sweepers like Scolipede”

[@tjdasdada3786]

@@gnomefrompinkerton my man legit cant read lol

[@tjdasdada3786]

@@codenamec.a.t2480 comparable whats so ever since banning good as good gives you no good options that can compare it.

[@KLIXORthe]

It's such a waste to ban substitute. Good as gold and soundproof are both only viable for this specific strategy and other extremely niche applications. Substitute has a lot of other interesting strategies with baton pass, predictive status or secondary effect blocking, and countering imposter.

[@lemonadogirl4082]

In a meta where boost sweepers are fairly common, Roar/Whirlwind counterplay is not "niche" are you joking???

[@KLIXORthe]

@@lemonadogirl4082 Use magic bounce lmao. It actually has utility for yoinking parting shot momentum and countering spikes unlike Good as Gold. Good as Gold is only better than bounce for blocking a few things like defog and skill swap. The latter is likely why it was used over bounce, if people even thought that far when copying the strategy. Also, nobody uses roar because whirlwind is a direct upgrade. Soundproof is garbage and is only good for countering choice boombursters, which are way too rare to justify running an otherwise useless ability.

[@lemonadogirl4082]

@@KLIXORthe No one uses Soundproof? Yeah, nobody ever ran perish trappers in the history of Hackmons, ever, it's not like they're one of the premier methods for nipping Baton Pass chains in the bud before they start or anything. Now while I'm conspicuously shoving my old Song/Look/Protect/Recover Mega Aggron set behind the cupboard: Hackmons uses hazards as much as any other meta does, if not more so, and with removal options not limited to select species, means of blocking removal are more important to carry because knocking a given Pokémon out doesn't guarantee the stoppage of removal, so the idea that hardly anyone was using GaG for reasons outside of status blocking and Skill Swap blocking is asinine-there are less committal ways to do both of those things, GaG is popular in large part because it compresses those two things _and_ Defog blocking into one single investment. I'm honestly all for banning GaG, but not for the reason that it's only use is this specific cheese, because that's flagrantly not true, but for the reason that things that compress too many functions too tightly end up creating a game so heavily warped around those things that the game would shift radically without them to such a degree that people stop wanting the things gone despite the brokenness. Good as Good is that thing, and it's normally weighed down by Gholdengo not really being all that spicy of a Pokémon at brass tacks-it'll throw STAB at you and not much else-but Hackmons removes that restriction and shows just how truly patently ridiculous the idea of the Ability is.

[@Balazs1102_]

Mold breaker perish song goes brrrr! But for real, its for the best I guess

[@GynxShinx]

Zamazenta being too strong?! What a glow up.

[@PlatinumMage]

He was always pretty good in bh

[@hoagie911]

I think my brain just turned off for 7 minutes

[@ultimaterecoil1136]

Ngl I get the reasoning but I kinda would of preferred ban good as gold to sub.

[@mjm3091]

You would think this would just make Mold Breaker, Turboblaze and the other breaking and nullifying abilities more useful. Is Neutralising Gas out as well?

[@davey645]

Finally a Zamazenta-crowned W

[@SolarityVision]

A GLORIOUS W at that

[@chefdunsparce4254]

Rare Zamazenta crowned W

[@caliburnleaf9323]

How is sub+soundproof beating roar even remotely relevant? This is hackmons, where any pokemon can learn any move. Whirlwind exists. The only reason roar gets used over whirlwind in standard play is because it's more accessible.

[@codenamec.a.t2480]

The issue is parting shot, phasing moves usually aren’t very good anyways, and if they are used it’s stuff like Dragon Tail…which is blocked by Substitute

[@mongeneral05]

Liquid ooze is a thing in gen 9 no ? In Gen 8 OU i liked to use tentacruel liquid ooze + scald + rapid spin vs ferrothorns. I won't say it won the 1v1 everytime vs ferro, but it does a good chunk and if i get the burn it can shutdown the leftovers.

[@hendeyjagger7489]

Why doesn't Spectral Thief work anymore? Because the move doesn't exist in gen 9 or Because of subs? Nevermind

[@infinitygroudonVGC]

Completely unrelated but does anyone know where the Pokemon Shuffle-style fanart comes from? Like the Zacian in the thumbnail, it's so clean it looks official

[@theoverseer393]

It makes me cry tears of joy that Zamazenta is OP

[@Rarest26]

So, Quiver Dance is banned but Victory Dance isn’t? Did I get that right? And if so, why?

[@sideways5153]

I assume it’s because it’s easier to deal with physical attackers than special attackers, but that is odd without context

[@MatheusSantos-ym1fd]

What if they banned good as gold instead?

[@codenamec.a.t2480]

As the video says, soundproof would’ve replicated the niche about as well. Substitute was the broken element. Victory Dance couldn’t be banned either, because people would just shift to Bulk Up instead

[@milkboy9339]

​@@codenamec.a.t2480I don't know about that. There's a lot of counterclaim other than just Parting Shot that Good As Gold also shuts down. Like getting off a Prankster Leech Seed before the sub, or any status condition really. Burn and Para would really hurt thay set up. And you can always break the sub with a move like Tidy Up, no matter how bulky they got. Substitute is super important for other set-up sweepers to keep them safe from Chansey and crits and now that's just.... gone. I think banning Good As Gold would have been the much better play here. I've been playing BH and we had just managed to ward off the tidal wave of stall teams, but I fear with this sub ban they may be rearing their ugly heads once again....

[@milkboy9339]

Damg bro. Ive played a lot of hackmons, and it always seems like they ban hyper offense wayyyy more than stall. I was playing around with Contrary Calyrex-Shadow but it got banned. Then i tried and grew to love Shift Gear Guts Slaking, but it got banned. And now my pnly recourse against the wall of Imposter Blissey, Prankster Chansey, Fur Coat Zacian, Unaware Ting Lu and Groudon, and Nuzzle Dialga-Primal was this set Zamazenta (Prankster) Tera - Dark - Victory Dance - Substitute - Power Trip - Taunt It was slow to set up so i could really only use it against stall, but it worked wonders against them. Tera dark increased my power with Power Trip and made me immue to prankster, and Taunt let me disable haze users. And since im Prankster i outran other prankster haze users. But alas.... now sub is banned. And yet Nuzzle, and worst of all Strenth Sap continue to roam free.... Why would they not ban Good As Gold!?!?

[@codenamec.a.t2480]

Learn to play little bro 😭😭

[@milkboy9339]

@codenamec.a.t2480 Bro, I could say the same thing to all the BH stall players. Whenever us Hyper Offense players come up with a good strat they ban it! Maybe try to learn some counter-play instead of banning all of our techniques?

[@chloeligma3883]

good as gold blocks strength sap btw youre welcome

[@milkboy9339]

@chloeligma3883 You know what else blocks Strength Sap? Substitute. Just let me sub please.

[@Scurrying_Snail]

This is the best thumbnail on KZbin

[@Scurrying_Snail]

Truly a ranbats7_27 classic

[@smergthedargon8974]

Your vids are so much better than BKC's - way more to the point.

[@Psychomaniac14]

did they not try infiltrator dragon tail or infiltrator circle throw??

[@dislexyc]

What i keep hearing is that Good as gold is an issue Ban substitute, I guess

[@Rarest26]

Gholdengo bribes the council to keep itself and its ability legal in (almost) every format

[@Kowery105]

At the end he says that soundproof would also work

[@Interiorcrocodilealigator10838]

Ok this sounded a lil insane until I realized I only play ND BH. I’m thinkin to myself how am I supposed to beat imposter chanseys now.

[@meeladalailan5475]

This ban has actully made imposter very hard to play around. A team of full imposters is actully somehow usable. Imposter is on the verge of making me quit this gamemode. It should definitely be limited to 1-2 mons on a team.

[@Angel98975]

Doesn’t tidy up remove substitute and go through good as gold?

[@HillaryClinton9-11]

IDK, you should probably ask someone else, I don't play Pokemon

[@iantaakalla8180]

Tidy Up does remove Substitutes. However, as a horrible boosting move with only 16 PP, you basically will run out of Tidy Up before the other Pokémon cannot boost anymore and that also assumes the Pokémon in question does not kill the Tidy Up user.

[@user-fz9vk4js5l]

The thumbnail is class

[@MtF_doom]

That thumbnail tho 💀

[@sablesalt]

can you explain why spectral thief doesn't work?, kinda an important thing to actually explain as it is just one of the most format defining moves. also prankster haze is a very common answer to set up sweepers in the format since inception and magic bounce sweepers have existed for that long too so no clue what the the ban is for exactly as aside some more niche situations with the differences between the abilities such as parting shot not being a phasing option or skill swap there isn't much new. overall it seems ridiculous to ban sub in this situation as it is an important tool in the format against mons like imposter chansey/blissey and common status moves while also not being an unlimited use tool like good as gold is which is rather important in a format where pp stalling is a entirely viable option to wear down opponents let alone with the addition of boots from gen 8.

[@ZylowHF]

Spectral Thief doesn't exist as a move in Gen 9 so can't be used in battle - not even on a hacked Pokémon

[@sablesalt]

@@ZylowHF damn so he just fumbled

[@isaiahleach4078]

Is that a fanmade shuffle sprite for Zacian in the thumbnail?

[@bluehax6]

I can understand substitute I was just surprised to hear toxic orb poison heal was a top level strat. surely there would be a better ability to use that would outclass that combination right?

[@KnightmarePhoenix_official]

I don't play the specific metas mentioned (more of a gen 6 ph person), but from my experience in other metas I think poison heal plus toxic orb is top tier because it heals HP at a higher rate than leftovers and at the same time offers an immunity to status. It's pretty much like running comatose and leftovers, but with even more healing. Plus, depending on the situation, you can also run Trick to trade the orb away, gaining a new beneficial item and simultaneously messing up an opponent's Pokémon in a major way.

[@chloeligma3883]

@@KnightmarePhoenix_official also BH games tend to run pretty long especially when you start getting to top levels so poison heal gives effectively unlimited healing without relying on pp or requiring you to switch like regenerator

[@yt-lh8kk]

Is neutralising gas available or banned in BH? Thought it could be used in this situation while also worth to use as a staple in many other situations.

[@SpectorLKM]

Gas is banned

[@matigamer329]

Why do you have 2 types of edition?

[@HillaryClinton9-11]

IDK, ask someone else i don't even know

[@josephwilliams5292]

Couldn’t you use torch song on something with unaware so you don’t have to worry about boosting faster? Like…regular skeledirge?

[@dorkfish1275]

wow, an unhacked strat beating hacked strats, noice.

[@LotoTheHero]

Interesting. I would have thought there would be some sort of strategy with unaware to get around this.

[@codenamec.a.t2480]

People did try unaware, however, they were stalled out by Leech Seed and inevitably ran out of Recover PP.

[@moobattle]

Is there a reason they didn't do a complex ban?

[@lunarixis9957]

Smogon is heavily against applying complex bans as a whole

[@HillaryClinton9-11]

IDK

[@Skullhawk13]

@@lunarixis9957they’re also against providing established criteria for what certain terms mean which results in a lot of things feeling like buzz words. The notion of no complex bans is only a thing because they refuse to define terms like “over-centralizing” because a pokemon being mandatory on any serious team apparently doesn’t count. It’s fine to require a moveslot or item to counter one strategy but not another. Very inconsistent. It’s why I’m merely an observer, I can’t get invested in something so arbitrary.

[@Skullhawk13]

@@gnomefrompinkerton cute, But assholes like you are exactly why. You don’t address anything I said you just dismiss it flippantly and act like you’re not part of the problem. Also I DO play the ACTUAL game, just not with the showdown or Smogon jerks. The lack of self-awareness is just sad.

[@justin4296]

​@@Skullhawk13🤡

[@Peanutbetter27]

Why weren't people running infiltrator with like dragon tail or something?

[@Mimagito]

Because both are kinda unviable. Yes, they help, but then again, you're running Infiltrator + Dragon Tail in a tier where you could be doing a lot more, and just for a single, beyond broken matchup.

[@crarlo]

im sure some people were, but when a strategy is so good as to force every team to give up an ability and a move slot just to counter it, it is clear that the strategy is broken

[@pastadog5029]

Opportunity cost, as discussed in the video.

[@lemonadogirl4082]

If I had to guess, opportunity cost. You have to remember that you can put pretty much any Ability that isn't Wonder Guard on your Pokémon here, and the best strategies often rely on the synergy between Ability and moves-that's why the Good as Good sets mentioned are so popular, they're some of the strongest synergy in the game, period. Abilities that want to counter a specific strat need to have a general use case outside of that matchup to really be viable as opposed to suituationally useful and deadweight otherwise. For instance, if you're wanting to counteract the move Nuzzle, which has been a problem before, you probably want to use a Pokémon with Lightning Rod as its Ability, but specifically a fast one carrying Electrify as well. That way, even outside of dealing with Nuzzle, the core functionality of the Pokémon works, but against Nuzzle you can either get in for free plus a boost, or gain a boost while actually attacking in the same turn. A worse answer would be something like a Volt Absorb wall Pokémon, because walls have so many better options for recovery-including ToxOrb Poison Heal, which would block the Paralysis from Nuzzle anyway. Now let's return to your original question. Infiltrator has two use cases at all-maintaining damage vs screens, and bypassing Substitute. If screens are that big of an issue for you, any Pokémon can learn screen removal moves like Defog, Brick Break, or Psychic Fangs, so just pick a teammate with a move slot that's more or less going spare to use for that. Meanwhile, getting around Substitutes can just be done with any sound move without eating an entire Ability slot. So even in its best use cases, Infiltrator is fully outclassed just from the mechanics of the metagame. You're right that Infiltrator/DTail would work against this strat, but it sucks turbo ass against basically everything else, with an opportunity cost so massive that you may as well be fighting 5-6. Forcing opportunity costs that big has no place in any metagame that aims to be balanced.

[@bruhbruh4329]

Because they suck

[@leo6294]

The day Zamazenta got love

[@RealNikTrustMe]

zamazenta dominates this ruleset so hard, it's kinda funny

[@Seth_rs]

Then why mot ban good as gold? its a budget wonder guard it stops all status moves including transform

[@Xahnel]

Why not just ban the combination of sub and gold? Like how sleep clause controls toxic sleep spam without banning sleep as a concept. Seems overreaching to ban sub as a whole. Call it the sub gold clause.

[@JuukaRock]

Smogon avoids complex bans (that is, anything more than a single step). The reason is because it opens the floodgates on picking and choosing combinations of moves, abilities and/or Pokemon to ban, which will eventually be overwhelming for players and tier runners alike.

[@tysondennis1016]

Wubba lubba sub dub!

[@dissonanceparadiddle]

I didn't even know competitive hacked was a thing wow

[@Esteboss]

legendary thumbnail

[@a2g108]

0:24 Yo wtf is that Chansey

[@tbolt__]

Impostor Chansey

[@a2g108]

@@tbolt__ what is it impersonating? Robocop?

[@-LastStand-]

Uh, what about tidy up? Isn't it a setup+clear the field move?

[@ZylowHF]

Tidy Up doesn't work cause of Good As Gold

[@Kalaphant]

5:00 But also Mold Breaker gets better with better abilities

[@romantheamazing]

why couldn't they only just ban the combination of both the ability and move? I don't get it can someone explain.

[@Missiletainn]

I don't get why they removed moves which were removed in the games in hackmons? Like, it's already hackmons, just because the moves were removed in the base game, doesn't mean they have to be removed in online metagame about hacking stuff.

[@Gich101]

The move got banned from balanced hackmons, they ban certain things to make the most amount of Pokemon viable. Pure hackmons on the other hand bans nothing

[@gwenyon4939]

It’s because BH aims to be accurate to what’s hackable on a cartridge. If a move was removed entirely from the game, it’s no longer usable on cart. For BH to include these moves would be bad for the integrity of the tier.

[@fir3cl4w]

God tier thumbnail

[@sponge8406]

love the thumbnail lmao

[@X-35173]

If soundproof was a good enough plan B that banning the move was needed, then why didn't sub soundproof become a problem in earlier generations?

[@KLIXORthe]

Earlier generations didn't have victory dance, which has synergy with iron head and other high flinch moves. That being said why not just ban soundproof too? The only use it has is blocking parting shot, but magic bounce turns a parting shot prediction into a free switch anyways, which is usually better.

[@anaconja]

because spectral thief existed and now it doesnt

[@chloeligma3883]

@@KLIXORthe soundproof has actually been a major component of the BH meta for a long time due to boomburst being available to every special attacker and aerilate/refrigerate/galvanize/pixelate or punk rock making it even better, so banning it would undermine the counterplay to powerful mixed attackers like rayquaza.

[@KLIXORthe]

​@@chloeligma3883 I doubt it. In hackmons, it'd be extremely risky to run an ability that's dead weight until your opponent reveals boomburst. In hackmons its vital that every one of your mons can be useful in every battle. In my years of playing hackmons I have never considered boomburst remotely worth countering with such drastic measures.

[@fractalisomega9517]

Liquid Ooze: *Exists*

[@DrDri50]

Isnt Magic Bounce just better than Good as Gold ?

[@Lumpfriend]

Magic bounce has a pretty big achilles heel here in that if you reflect parting shot, you get switched out and lose all your boosts as if they had used whirlwind or similar (really weird interaction but makes sense if you think about it). I don't play the tier but I could see this making it a much inferior option if parting shot is really that common

[@avatarmew]

What's the Steel/normal Pokemon called? I checked CAP and I couldn't find it.

[@techknight3753]

Was a Pokestars mon (gen 5), they existed for a side game mode but could be hacked in to use online

[@XJ-0641]

great to see some love for this horrible(affectionate) format. I've had fun messing around with it in many generations, and gen 9 has been wild

[@moyai5317]

I miss about you talking of older generations