Dragons & the Dragon Cult | The Elder Scrolls Podcast #8

WELCOME to the Elder Scrolls Podcast with FudgeMuppet. In this episode, Scott, Michael & Drew discuss the Dragons & Dragon Cult.
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[@95Bartlett]

The dragons couldn’t beat the cliff racers in Morrowind but Saint Jiub could. Therefore, Saint Jiub is more powerful than all the dragons that were in Morrowind.

[@trashman6354]

Hahah I'd say cliff racers are like mosquitoes/wasps to a dragon one ain't a problem 5 are annoying but hundreds is just too much hassle

[@martinsimington]

@@trashman6354 yeah I agree with you on that

[@vonfaustien3957]

And saint jiub was killed by a rando dremora making that dremora better than both Juib and the dragons. The hero of kavatch than killed that dremora that means he's on top of the pecking order

[@stinker718]

@@vonfaustien3957 are we using sword logic?

[@MALWylie]

@@vonfaustien3957 Reasons like these are why the Hero of Kvatch is now Sheogorath!

[@WeaponizedKarma]

I still wonder if the Akivir stories about "eating all the dragons" is actually an ancient reference to absorbing the souls as the dragonborn would. Maybe the last of their dragonborn died and that's why they invaded tamriel to find a new one. Just a thought.

[@zacharyash2050]

And perhaps the Tiger Dragon IS a dragon born in that same sense. Absorbed enough dragons to become as close to it as possible, kind of like how Mirrak makes the claim he is the first dragon born or rather the strongest "dragon soul"

[@indomitus7685]

I'm totally rolling with that theory from now on

[@stephencampbell2735]

Very interesting thought. Quick, someone dm kirkbride! Lol

[@vonfaustien3957]

Makes sense the Tsaesci used a dragon born to kill the dragons and establish themselves as the dominant power. Than the ka po tun has there leader mantal akatosh in some manner becoming a dragon himself and pushing the tiger people to the dominant power. The Tsaesci launch the invasion of tamriel with the goal of finding and bring back a dragon born so they can use them as a weapon against Tosh Raka and even the playing field

[@GlobTheDabGlob]

I really like this theory and never thought of it for some reason because it’s kind of obvious lol. Head canon now.

[@anthonypants9182]

I can't get over how much Scott, Drew and Michael look preset option for a male Breton, Nord and Imperial respectively

[@naemek9675]

Yeah, since I saw that comment under the race video I always think about it.

[@PetitPoneyDuVercors26]

In skyrim I think this races look quite similar, you can make very similar looking characters in these races... But yeah in oblivion your characters easily get cartoonish (like my profile picture here, blue dunmer with very flashy pink hair is possible in vanilla oblivion haha)

[@VintageNarwhal]

@@PetitPoneyDuVercors26 heads in oblivion were sooo god damn long

[@nicklagoni7306]

Lmfaoooo

[@hiddenwoodsben]

well, the breton maybe, if were talking daggerfall. the other two look more like half-a-nord and half-an-imperial.

[@RWNetworkEX]

Watching these podcasts are helping me achieve chim

[@exoib]

LMAO

[@RevantheBlack]

Remember you have to deal with Vivic’s milk-fingers to achieve CHIM

[@cartoonhistory353]

I’ve thrown up my chim before 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@freyjaseren6915]

What would you do with chim? Anything is possible, and. Also you could amaranth.

[@James-py4je]

Wow... WOW. Honestly. Take my wife my firstborn, anything you want. For once... a top comment on youtube that isnt cringy. Actually, nevermind top comment. Comment in general. Wow.

[@norrinradd6746]

18:00 What happens when a dragon's soul is absorbed? I think the lore gives a really good indication of what the answer is to this, and what's more, I think it, to some degree, applies to mortals as well. Dragons are just closer to their divine origins and so are more aware of it. In the book, The Monomyth, you get these passages, from the Altmeri and Cyrodilic creation myths respectively. The Altmeri passage first: "Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects...Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis." Here, we see that the souls of all of the gods, and mortals as well, following the deceit of Lorkhan (in this version of the story anyway), have their souls created as aspects of higher divine beings, made for the purpose of self reflection. Dragons are aspects of Akatosh in this way, literal parts of the dragon god cut off and allowed to exist as independent beings. Concerning this act of "cutting off" parts of themselves, we get this in the Cyrodillic creation myth: "Now when the Daedra Lords heard Shezarr, they mocked him, and the other Aedra. 'Cut parts of ourselves off? And lose them? Forever? That's stupid! You'll be sorry!...Not only are you fools to mutilate yourselves,' gloat the Daedra Lords, 'But you cannot even *keep the best pieces*, which prefer the glory and power of the Daedra Lords to the feeble vulgarity of the mush-minded Aedra." The souls of the lesser gods, and indeed, of mortals, are aspects of more powerful divine beings who, assuming they remain faithful to their ancestors, in some sense "return" to their source at death. The daedra plot to steal these little pieces of the divinity of other gods by luring them away from the deities foolish enough to let them wander off. A dragon soul isn't that much different than a mortal soul, except that it's much, much, much closer to the source. Mortal souls are aspects of aspects of aspects of aspects of the divines and et ada from whom they sprung. Dragons are only one level removed from Akatosh. They are demi-gods, not much different from the original Elnofey themselves. This power means that it is a much greater loss when one of these dragons, like Durnehviir, wanders off and is lost to Akatosh. As a safeguard against this, dragons who are in danger of losing their way and being corrupted (and thus potentially having their power lost to Akatosh forever, lured away by some daedra or necromancer or other horror of the aurbis), can have their souls consumed by mortals chosen for that purpose, who will then return to Akatosh at death with the souls of his wayward children. I think this also explains the innate desire to dominate and the whole "power is truth" thing with the dragons. They are unique in that they did not fade away like the et ada did. They are aspects of the divine, left on earth, who retained their divine power, despite existing in the house of sithis like the rest of the early demi-gods. They likely did this by consuming aspects (dragon souls) too weak to survive, leading to the same sort of "get good", "reclaim divinity through violence" idea that you see in the psijic endeavor of the dark elves. Dominating others and not letting yourself fade away seems to be the universal answer to reclaiming godhood in the elder scrolls universe. Of course the one population of aedric creations to retain their power would exhibit these traits. Perhaps this is also why early humans were comfortable worshipping them. For the same reason the dunmer worship the three good daedra. They had a truth for them that was brutal but, in the context of the elder scrolls universe, is of absolute cosmic importance, the same truth that seems to be present in every incarnation of the various teachings on CHIM. You need ambition and an extremely strong ego to reclaim your divinity as a mortal.

[@StarlitSeafoam]

Hmm, this does explain one of the six walking ways that Vivec describes in his sermons, the way of the sword. It always confused me, but I think you are right that it's just straight up violent domination. Wow, it makes the dragons make so much sense, and casts Parthonaax in a different light. He was literally giving up his chance at CHIM, maybe even chance to retain all his powers, not just going pacifist. Though I suppose he could have used one of the other walking ways. On a slightly different note, I think it's odd that Tiber Septim is said (in an out of game source, admittedly) to have taken the fourth walking way of death, even though he conquered all of Tamriel. Perhaps the Arcturian Heresy is right that he didn't do much of the actual fighting, leaving that to Wulfarth and Zurin Arctus. But he did control the Numidium, so...huh.

[@Samzillah]

Damn, that was explained beautifully. I think you're right, this makes a lot of sense.

[@tcdrummer50h8]

Why doesn't this have more likes?

[@thalmoragent9344]

This would explain the great Ego and Ancestor worship the Elves (the Aldmer/Old Ehlnofey) all have. They're not as close as Dragons are to the Et'Ada, but the Old Ehlnofey still remembered quite a bit, unlike the Wandering Ehlnofey Cool how, outside of most Bosmer, every race of Mer (despite their differences) and other beings like Dragons and some others like entaur Lore on studying/following the "Old Ways", all have a desire prove they're the best. The idea they must imprint themselves in history and how knowledge on the past, the Et'Ada and their ancestors is all fundamentally important to them, wanting to attain divinity.

[@Swolling]

Haven't watched yet but so glad they decided to do this as a topic. Look forward to these every week now. Much love to you guys.

[@realzachfluke1]

I knowwwww, same here!! And it was _even better_ than I expected, which has been a constant trend with the Fudgemuppet crew forever now. They just keep getting better and better 🔥😎

[@robertvanostrand3207]

I really feel like Miraak's rebellion started the dragon war unintentionally.

[@Casual_Goof]

I like this take

[@griffinbryant5016]

30:36 They do! In the Elswyr dlc for ESO, the dragons almost exclusively refer to Akatosh as Alkosh. Now, Nahfalaar does take the time to tell you that Akatosh, Auriel, Auri-El, and Alkosh are the same basic entity but even in the heat of battle Kaalgrontiid says "Alkosh"

[@rhettdow9903]

Absolutely love these long-form discussions.

[@dogman9291]

An interesting thing about Akatosh that I'm surprised that I've never seen mentioned: his two headed depictions heavily resemble the Roman god Janus, who was in fact a Roman god of time and was depicted with two heads (this time both human). One was said to look into the past, and the other into the future, and the Romans typically blended him with the god Jupiter, or considered them one in the same, making Janus the chief of the gods, like Akatosh is with the Imperial pantheon. So maybe Akatosh's depictions tie into that, in some way, since he is clearly inspired by Janus?

[@Renata_Knight]

Woah I can’t believe I never thought of that! Thanks for commenting!

[@jamescutts5005]

Janus was the Roman god of door ways new beginnings and keys which is were we get our month of January from

[@dogman9291]

@@jamescutts5005 Yes, but he was more than that, and was chiefly a time deity. These themes attatched to Janus are interesting when you consider the idea of time calpers in the Elder Scrolls universe, though.

[@jamescutts5005]

Zeitlich he wasn’t the Deity in charge of time in roman myth was Saturn because he came from Greek myth of Kronos the Titan of time Janus was a different god he was more closely related to Hecate goddess of magic and crossroads and deals

[@rokturi]

Hugh Janus

[@syrupsmiles9384]

Something about the term "Alduin's proper homies" is just so right

[@JamesCalico]

I think the Pelinal quote "..for our shared madness I do this." makes the most sense if you see it as Shezzar talking to Akatosh. The lore a number of times seems to indicate that Pelinal sometimes isn't there such as "when the dream no longer needs, the dreamer" If you see the greater concept of Akatosh, is an avatar of Order, it's not weird that dragons are dominating creatures.

[@griffinbryant5016]

I think the reason dragons have an innate desire to dominate is because Akatosh isn't just the god of time, he's the god of the divine right of kings. His aspects as Auriel, Akatosh, and Alkosh all reflect this position as a legitimate monarch on the same level as his role as the Time God, with Auriel and Alkosh placing an even heavier emphasis on his kingship than his Time God-ness. Hell, if you subscribe to the Rakatosh is an aspect of Akatosh theory, you have another example of this trend right there.

[@laggytalos8336]

(Sees new podcast has been uploaded) **Count Dooku voice** I've been looking forward to this

[@KGBBooks]

Twice the lore, double the likes

[@crandleberrysadie]

I'm somewhat reluctant to admit that I'd probably have been a dragon cultist. I mean... look at Alduin!! Tell me that he didn't take your breath away in that 2011 trailer or when he landed on the tower at Helgen, saving your life. They would have been fascinating & glorious & magic & yeah, I'd definitely have been a fan. 🐲 💚

[@trekkasavallie8603]

Hell yeah, even if I prefer the four legged ones, these though, with the lore behind them, exactly what I want out of these beings.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

Who is Alduin's mother? If Akatosh is his dad, who is his mum?

[@hollycruttenden5763]

Octavian Popescu Me.

[@DavidbarZeus1]

If I could actually BE the Last Dovahkiin, I'd have asked Alduin what he intends to do before actually fighting him. If he intended to just restart the dragon cult, I'd tell him "Sign me up!"

[@wiwysova]

He did not take my breath away because i knew he was going to be a generic "ME EVIL DO BAD THING" villain.

[@AGhostOfSorts]

What I'd like in a podcast discussion: maybe an episode about the weirder lore like the Ideal Masters or the Godhead but I know those have been mentioned briefly in other eps. Idk how much information is out there about those to talk about for an hour+ or if many others would be that interested since those are kinda "out there" topics. But I love the weird side of the lore.

[@alexanderwhittaker5855]

This series has been great, It’s great to listen to it every week, I’ve learnt so much lore! Thank you!

[@faithlessarv]

THURVOKUN & ZAAN Game: [ESO] Zaan the Scalecaller is a renegade female Dragon Priest serving as the final boss of Scalecaller Peak in Stormhaven, High Rock. She formerly served the dragon Thurvokun, but after his departure she turned to worshiping Peryite and has been granted his artifact, the Spellbreaker shield. Following her death at the hands of her irritated Thurvokun followers who thought that it was her fault that Thurvokun left them, she was awakened by a cult of Peryite followers who plan to unleash a terrible plague upon Tamriel. Zaan was defeated by a group of adventurers on Scalecaller Peak with the use of her own Spellbreaker, and ended the potential plague to Tamriel. Thurvokun left Zaan and the cult to a Dwemer habitat called Arkngthumz-Phng in Bangkorai. Thurvokun drove the dwemer out so he could inhabit it in isolation. He was one of the few dragons to have survived the Dragon War, until the adventurers Caluurion, Sabina Cedus, and Ulfnor slew him in the late First Era. Caluurion an altmer mage would focus his elf years studying on how to capture the dragon's soul through necromancy, but he fails to do so. What only remains is the dragon's bones and his companions who would later all die in the same area of research. The area would later be called Fang's Lair in the 2nd Era as a group dungeon in ESO. Orryn the Black is a barbaric Nord necromancer that leads the Blackmarrow Cult. He reanimates the 3 fallen adventurers Caluurion the Altmer mage, Sabina Cedus the Imperial adventurer, and Ulfnor the Nord adventurer. The next group of adventurers that would fight in Fang's Lair would fight Orryn, his cult, and the 3 fallen adventurers. After defeating and releasing the 3 fallen adventurers from Orryn's control, their cursed ghosts would ask the adventurers to help end Orryn's necromatic reign. Upon lowering Orryn's life to the point of death, he would use his trump card to put his soul into Thurvokun's dragon bones. He takes control of the dragons bones and fought with it. But he was overpowered in the end. After defeating Orryn's soul who controlled Thurvokun's dragon bones, the body shatters into a pile of bones, and Orryn's soul was lost. The ghosts of the dead thank the new adventurers for giving them their eternal rest, but Caluurion's ghost is saddened by what happened to his prizes in the end. His prizes were the dwemer ruins, and the dragon bones. He isn't that happy that the focus of his life's work was destroyed and he doesn't want your pity. Caluurion wanted a life beyond an elf's, he wanted a life of a god through the use of a dragon's soul. In his grave writes: "Here lies Caluurion, whose reach forever exceeded his grasp." This marks the end of the dragon, Thurvokun and his dragon priest, Zaan the Scalecaller. NAHFAHLAAR (NAFAALILARGUS the red dragon)/Kaalgrontiid (the green dragon)/Laatvulon (the blue dragon) Game: [ESO + ELDER SCROLLS: REDGUARD] Nahfahlaar (Nafaalilargus) the red dragon that Tiber Septim rode on was also known even during the 2nd Era. Nahfahlaar granted his horn as a boon to one amongst the Dragonguard's ranks, the Khajiiti heroine known as Ja'darri. His horn would eventually become known as the Horn of Ja'darri and was recognized as one of the most powerful of Dragonhorns, tools that emit a sound capable of incapacitating dragons. The horn doesn't work on Nahfahlaar though. The Dragonguard managed to seal Laatvulon away, but at the cost of Ja'darri's life, leaving Nahfahlaar with feelings of guilt over her death. Prior to her death, Ja'darri asked Nahfahlaar to empower the Mask of Alkosh, but he refused. Thus, this powerful tool was rendered unusable. After the events that released the dragons in Northern Elsweyr (Anqeuina) by Abnur Tharn. He helped the newly established Dragonguard led by Sai Sahan in Southern Elsweyr (Pellitine) to defend himself from Laatvulon who came out of hiding in the awake of Kaalgrontiid the dragon reincarnation of Alduin's rage. Laatvulon the Demon of the East and his cult followers the New Moon Cult wanted to carry out Kaalgrontiid's plan to become the Dark Aeon equal to Akatosh who was defeated in Jode's Core in Northern Elsweyr. Jode's Core is a portal realm where there is an abundant of green rocks called Aeonstones which can empower dragons. Kaalgrontiid harnessed enough power there before being banished by Abnur Tharn, an adventurer (you), and a descendant of queen Anequina, Khamira. Nahfahlaar agrees to empower the Mask of Alkosh to the worthy adventurer(you) in order to defeat Laatvulon. Following the defeat of Kaalgrontiid's underling Laatvulon, Kaalgrontiid travels to the southern coast of Southern Elsweyr to the island of Dragonhold where he now commands Laatvulon's New Moon Cult and where a lot of Aeonstones were collected by the organization. Kaalgrontiid utilized the energy of the Aeonstone to create an aegis, a massive and impenetrable ward, around the ancient fortress of Dragonhold and The Dark Aeon also began corrupting those near Dragonhold, turning them into crystalline beings. Through the combined efforts of Nahfahlaar, the reformed Dragonguard, and the new Queen of Northern Elsweyr's forces (Khamira a Khajiit descendant of queen Anequina who replaces the traitorous Queen Euraxia Tharn, an Imperial), Kaalgrontiid was slain and his soul was disintegrated by Nahfahlaar's flames, and his rage of dragons were defeated. The island's energy was unstable and blows up later on but the radius was contained by Abnur Tharn, and Nahfahlaar from exploding outside of the floating island. Abnur Tharn disappears but there was little known about Nahfahlaar's disappearance until Tiber Septim. The Battle of Hunding Bay in Stros M'Kai is where he now chooses to style himself as Nafaalilargus, started working as a mercenary dragon in the employ of Tiber Septim during his conquest of Tamriel. He sank Prince A'tor's ship with a single fiery breath after the prince had been struck down by a poisoned arrow, thus ensuring that A'tor's wizard could not attempt to expunge the poison. Nafaalilargus was then put under the command of Lord Amiel Richton, a man who had been named the provisional governor of Stros M'Kai. He was assigned to guard the soul gem of Prince A'tor, which was locked away in the treasuries beneath the island's palace. He coveted gold for unclear reasons and was paid large amounts for his service. It is a reference to Smaug's treasure room from The Lord of the Rings series. The dragon Nafaalilargus was slain in 2E 864 by Cyrus the Redguard, while confined to a tight space in the Stos M'Kai treasure vaults. Cyrus employed tactics of the Argonian villagers of Noota Nara by dipping his sword in dragonfire and piercing Nafaalilargus' hide, dealing a killing blow. Cyrus then stole back the soul gem, and Richton was informed by Dram of the dragon's death. His death weakened the Imperial presence on the island considerably. However, due to the immortal nature of dragon souls, Nafaalilargus isn't truly dead and could be raised again.

[@violetnightmare9216]

I think the draconic desire to dominate could come from their nature as being fragments of a draconic oversoul - they are fragmented and the unconscious desire to dominate is an expression of that, inevitably bringing them into conflict with other dragons, which if they kill each other they will absorb their souls and become less fragmented. Maybe once Alduin conquered the world he would have started in on the other dragons and absorbed all of their souls one by one and then picked a fight with Akatosh himself to kill him and reunite with his soul.

[@colt9836]

Akatosh is time incarnate; he is the past, present, and future. He would already know that Alduin would try to overthrow him. The reason why Aka didn't stop Alduin is because he already knew that the LD would; Aka has probably already experienced it countless times again and again.

[@Mr_Sim0n]

44:25 so the story is called Nibelungenlied and is from around the year 1200. Its a German legend about Siegfried who kills a Dragon and bathed in his blood which made his skin impenetrable except for the area where the leaf was. He took the Dragons treasure and married a girl but do to some harsh words and other stuff Siegfried gets killed while hunting from the right hand of the King. The treasure was thrown in the Rhein river and everyone who knew about the location got killed. People still search for the treasure but it is not found yet. This was a short version of the legend and I know 6 month is probably a bit late but I'm living in the area where the treasure is supposedly thrown in the Rhein River so had had to explain it.

[@catsandcake1849]

On the subject of dragon breaks, I'm still hoping that bethesda will resolve the civil war/dawnguard/greybeards vs blades conflicts by having Alduin's death cause a minor dragon break. Alduin's death, as an aspect of Akatosh, could have some real mindfuck effects on how time works, and I'd love to see Bethesda explore that. Then again, the dragonborn didn't absorb his soul so... maybe nothing happens. But his soul retreating to the heavens could be interpreted as an aspect of Akatosh leaving the realms/returning to the rest of Akatosh and a dragon break could happen because of all the ripple effects of the time god changing its basic constitution

[@dumat8303]

Its possible that a Reformed Dragon Cult could be established if humans are desperate enough to make a deal with the Dragons for protecting Skyrim against invasion by the Aldmeri Dominion. Depending on who their leader is I wonder what their diplomacy towards other regions of Nirn would be like or their disposition towards the empire. They could even command the Draugr who served the previous Dragon Cult to attack the Thalmor if they take control over them from Alduin which means they already have an army.

[@christopherdove8914]

I think Pereyite is the perfect equal and opposite of nirn bound dragons. He deals with the natural order and is called the taskmaster in opposition to the dragons who see tasks beneath them and bend the natural order.

[@ed6852]

This is probably my favorite elder scrolls topics. Dragons and the dragon cult are my favorite thing about the elder scrolls universe.

[@lstatic21]

This episode does Drag-on a bit, seemed like they were Winging it. But the episode itself flies by.

[@justabeardedguythatisahero9848]

Someone : - There is dragon cult in Elder scrolls universe. FudgeMuppet: let me tellyou about our great Masters everyone: does they give a mace for worship FudgeMuppet : yes All hail our dragon lords

[@undeadwerewolves9463]

I GOTTA MACE! I GOTTA MACE! IM GONNA MACE YOU IN YOUR STUPID NOOB FACE! BUT NOT FROM THE FLOOR CUZ THAT WOULD BE POOR AND I'VE GOT *DRAGON* CAN YOU GUESS WHAT ITS FOR!?

[@matthewrawlings1284]

Hey Jellal! Or are you Mystogen? Been seeing you everywhere this past year or so.

[@miniman475]

I like what Micheal said about the nords being primed for dragon worship and the dragons just took advantage. I mean, even when the dragons ruled over Skyrim they didn't care to actually rule they delegated a lot of their power. It's not a matter of if they COULD conquer Tamriel and rather a matter of if they cared enough too.

[@Seifiros]

Interesting thing that Paarthunax did mention that there were others who rebeled against Alduin and helped mankind in their rebellion, but other than that little mention we got nothing in vanilla Skyrim (to my knowledge) .. But then came Vicn with Kahkaankrein in Vigilant, damn that dude did his homework!

[@dezkiir]

The Emperor that went to Akaviir. He was a Septum if I'm not mistaken. The Imperial records say that the invasion was a failure and the Emperor was slain. What if that's not true, what if they have lived on in Akaviir and kept a seperate Septum bloodline going. Could they amass a force large enough to retake the Ruby Throne?

[@markuswelander8551]

I think that the reason that magic uses hand movements for bipeds is because of how their mind works; dragons, however are more verbal, or tonal if you will.

[@spyral1051]

I appreciate these podcasts. The regular firmal videos are great on lore, but sometimes a relaxed point of view of other people is entertaining and more comfortable. Great for long drives.

[@michaeltelson9798]

I believe that Chinese and Japanese dragons were primarily river gods which helps to explain the sinewy shape.

[@chuckchuckerson5364]

I've watched all of these podcasts as they come out, love em. If I could offer a piece of constructive criticism, please include Drew more. I feel like each week there are large segments he is excluded from, and when he does speak there are times he is shot down so fast he doesn't get a chance to offer his perspective. I know he was not part of the original team, but he offers a lot of value to your brand. Thank you for all the content you all provide, you have been one of my favorite channels for years.

[@katiecool70]

Well said!

[@XJonAye]

Yes I agree,

[@marcusbergman6116]

Agreed. Drew's really good.

[@sachindash2033]

These podcasts have been amazing. Recaping/Discovering the lore has been a great treat. Would really be interested in discussion about college of winterhold, particularly about Augur of Dunlain.

[@crandleberrysadie]

Yay! Drew's talking a bit more. Please talk more Drew!!

[@SophiaAstatine]

Have you learned nothing from the teachings of Jurgen Windcaller?

[@crandleberrysadie]

@@SophiaAstatine 😂😂😂

[@DalesFresh]

Cool! Glad to see you guys are doing a podcast!!

[@tswims92]

Could you have the Dragon Cult and Dragon War happen before the return to clean up some of the Skyrim and older lore to something more cohesive? So Nords were breathed into existence on the Throat of the World, founded a civilization under the Dragon Cult, rebelled, overthrew the dragons, and due to the destruction, migrated to Atmora. Then due to civil war, and other issues migrated back to Skyrim. This would also help justify how 500 nords, now with the Thuum, were able to beat an entire elven civilization.

[@ambrose9821]

Yes dragons can practice magic, that's what happened with durnavier in the soul carin (probably spelled his name wrong) he was looking for alternate means of power outside the normal conventions of dragons and started dabbling in necromancy, and it would seem found a way to incorporate it into his shouts, or perhaps he interpreted the magic of necromancy in shout form, or perhaps shouts are how dragons interact with magic, but point is he said himself he became involved in that magical practice on a whim pretty much and obviously it didn't work out in his favor being trapped in the soul carin Edit: which they immediately briefly touched on as soon as I paused to write the comment lol Another point was about what's the difference between dragons and dragonborn other than their physical body, and it's that there is none, this is why the dragons who speak to you recognize you and treat you as a "fellow dovah", and to be dragonborn is described as having the soul of a dragon, hence why you absorb miraak, or as they said a dragon could likely absorb you, and I don't know enough about the deeper lore to say if their idea of a dragon soul being a piece of time, but what I think is happening when you absorb a soul of a dragon, sort of like they said I think it becomes a part of the soul it's joined to and can no longer be its own again, but I think you're absorbing everything they ever were, their very essence, and that's how you gain their knowledge, now gameplay wise of course the dragonborn can't kill 1 dragon and gain that dragons entire understanding of their language, but I think you gain their memories and they become part of you almost like absorbing someone in the prototype games, just more mystical, I think dragon souls have a devine quality being descended from akatosh, and this is why no necromancer, not even the ideal masters can ever possess the soul of a dragon, and I think it's extremely key to note that alduins soul doesn't get absorbed by the player but shoots into the sky, when durnavier dies he doesn't even have that much, he just dematerializes, meaning in my opinion his soul is bound to his body and the ideal masters won't let his body die because of their contract, so not even the dragonborn can free his soul because his body may as well be like a reanimation from Naruto in the sense that no amount of physical damage can actually destroy it, so what are we left with? The player is a dragon, but in a mortals body, we know it takes effort to remove a dragons soul, considering if you stay far enough away a dragon will never decay, this suggests without a dragonborn when a dragon dies it just decomposes as a normal corpse and it's soul? 🤷 It's in some sort of flux or limbo, maybe it goes to akatosh and his realm until called upon again, maybe it's just trapped till restored, idk, but point is the dragon isn't truly dead because it's soul is not possessed by another, we also know that it takes effort to remove a soul because miraak can steal souls before the player can absorb them, without even leaving the realm of apocrypha, which by the way is what I think happened to alduin in some form, I think someone, some entity, be it akatosh, or lorkan, snagged his soul before the player could, because I think the player isn't skilled enough within the frame of his own story to have that priority with a soul, I've also thought perhaps alduins soul is too resilient for any other to lay claim to and so alduin escaped to return and fulfill the prophecy at a later date and "eat the world", but reguardless alduins soul either escaped or was claimed by a higher being, we also know the very act of absorbing a soul is absorbing all the knowledge of that dragon directly, hence my idea of it being similar to absorbing someone in prototype, so in conclusion the player is a dragon and dragons are whack

[@user-tp5yb4hr4w]

i once wrote a fan fiction about the times of when dragons ruled the world. and i never did finish it, though i still love the concept and the reason why i didn't finish the story was because i couldn't figure out how i wanted to start the story but i wanted to focus on the parts of history that lead to the end of the dragons ruling. but there was some lore that i wasn't very polished on and needed to read and know as much material as i could in order to return to the story. my first idea was to involve the wooden mask and within ancient brujnarr. but i also wanted to involve the politics of the dragon priests and the cult. we know that the wooden mask had the ability to take the player back in time to the room when it was complete, but the idea was further expanded on within the ruins and the city and culture of the ppl who were there, also noting that this was before shalidor added the labyrinthine ruins to the city, because shalidor didn't exist until long after the dragons existed, so that portion would not exist within the ruins. and the odd thing was finding a dragon priest deep within the ruins of labyrinthine, and it makes no sense why this priest would be there except for the college mission that involves him.

[@trekkasavallie8603]

You should take those ideas, mix em up in a way that works for you, and start even a small story around it, you never know it could lead to something truly great.

[@user-tp5yb4hr4w]

@@trekkasavallie8603 iv'e written this story's beginning in several different ways. one where you are an observer through the creator who designed and created the masks, and another where the mask was given the ability to time travel so the player could be themselves within the story with all powers and abilities so the mask could be taken off outside of that little room. i have also written a somewhat origin back story in how the wooden mask is a creation of the elder gleam tree but also was fashioned from a master spriggen who was born of the tree. but that story isn't really finished. the first story involved this idea, was more limited in what the player could do in the actions taken as the player was within the the dragon cult and could be able to observe the events of why the dragon war started. but as much as i like that story this idea of mine was also an idea for a mod and that's kind of boring being an observer when all the action hits. i also wanted to write in a part of the story that involved getting help from the mage shalidor. but i needed to research his story before i continued. so as you can already tell, the idea is still rattling around in my head. and i'm still trying to figure out the best course of action and what will bring the most dramatic effect. i like the idea of being an observer, but i also like the idea of giving the player more agency, the reason why the nords created that elder scroll that was used to make the dragons disappear was so the world could prepare for the fight against him could be won as the world had more time to prepare, not to mention the last dragonborn could change history and break all the lore in the modern day elder scrolls going back in time. the modern day story explains that you may not have killed Alduin, but instead he was defeated and may return at some later date. but the dragonborn isn't an immortal he is powerful yes, but he won't live forever and he's the last of the dragonborn according to the in game prophesy's. ppl might like the story, but ppl also might hate it as it could potentially break all cannon with the agency story.

[@user-tp5yb4hr4w]

i also thought about writing in some kind of story involving miraak, and letting him know you are the last dragonborn, and because i already know history of his defeat. that maybe him going with hermaous mora was a waste of time effectively convincing him to join in on my fight against the world eater with the rest of the dragon priests that were on our side. i'm not 100% sure this story would be good to write as it effectively makes him less powerful and knowledgeable of the future, however it could prevent him from becoming the bad guy who serves his own selfish purpose. but i don't know about this yet...

[@bray2964]

The book about Dragons and their enchanting knowledge is called "Twin Secrets", it first appeared in TES 5 and it sorta eludes to the "Extra Effect" Enchanting perk

[@patrickfields1640]

Why do I enjoy watching three guys talk about a video game so much?

[@Im-Not-a-Dog]

To sum it up: Elder Scrolls time hits different.

[@cnut7383]

When you use bend will on a random hostile dragon they seem pretty sapient and intelligent

[@Monkismo]

Great chat, perfect to listen to while I'm finally playing through the new Anniversary Edition content.

[@adamthompson6669]

My ears are ready 👂 👀, I also made a Dunmer in Skyrim no mods having a blast. 💕 U Fudgemuppet. Also could you do a video on rating the standing stones too, if you haven’t already. I’m using steed stone at the moment. Love the extra carry weight and movement ability. 🙏

[@ciaranmck4469]

damn bro the steed stone is pretty shit

[@dogman9291]

Play Morrowind loser.

[@Swolling]

Atronach stone is the one they almost always used in their builds when using vanilla Skyrim. kzbin.info/www/bejne/d16rmmOki9aYbqc link to their video on it

[@tumadre2314]

On bequest to the aggro dragons and smart dragon; each time you use the dragon tame shout, all dragons act wise and smart and revering to the dragonborn so maybe that has something to do.

[@XJonAye]

Thanks, can't get enough of your content

[@bryankelly335]

Hey , one of you might want to update the description .. Thanks for everything you guys do for us .. Appreciate yah

[@luckyjedi429]

51:42 My issue with the idea that Miraak gained his dragon soul from Mora is that he would have come before Alessia, who I think was the first *recorded* Dragonborn, which would align with Miraak being the First *actual* Dragonborn. And isn’t the dragon blood supposed to be directly from Akatosh himself anyways?

[@Ken_wah]

Regin the dwarf, Fafnir’s brother, asks Sigurðr to cook Fafnir’s heart. While cooking it, Sigurðr checks the doneness of the meat by poking it with his finger. Sigurðr burns his finger by doing so and what anyone would do in that moment would be to cool their finger by putting it into their mouth. He ingests some of the blood. This causes him to understand the language of birds. The birds are talking between themselves when Sigurðr hears that one should not let one brother live, when you are the murderer of the other. So Sigurðr makes Regin shorter by about a head. If you understand the meaning.

[@stevesareyka8636]

Speaking of dragons i feel like Akatosh gave the last dragonborn his abilities so that he could chastise and humble the proud dovah Alduin. And that Akatosh will use Alduin to mantle and eat the world.

[@austin7203]

I think the dragons where more laid back in atmora because the people in atmora were bigger and stronger. So you got to think that in atmora the people there are tougher to deal with and having a more laid back approach would be better in not causing the people to rebel. Then when their was a movement of people (over time) to skyrim the people got smaller. Maybe dragons were more ok with demanding more because the people were perceive as less as a threat. Maybe dragon rule in atmora was more of a coexistence then the dragons in skyrim saw an opportunity in what they thought was the Nords being weaker. Could be wrong but I thought that the atmoras were bigger and stronger but if not than my whole theory could be wrong. Just something I thought up while listening.

[@gptechnologiesmangalore6909]

A wywen is a dragon "camelworks uses goggles and discovers todd howard" it just works

[@johnsexton4352]

It's very telling about the strength of the Dragon Cult that they never infringed on the Dwemer that we know of

[@alecneal8335]

A weird thought I always had was if Paarthurnax was supposed to be who Kyne had teach the first humans to wield the Thu'um, then why do all these draugr have the Thu'um? Most draugr are dragon cultists so did the dragons under Alduin also teach humans the Thu'um?

[@nonamegiven202]

a piece of evidence for skyrim's Dragons being Akaviri, "ancient dragons of the North" making a blade in the Tsaesci style that would become Goldbrand.

[@baronofbahlingen9662]

I think the Tsaeci culture was the original dragon-led society, as Skyrim would later be. The Akaviri (Japanese-ish) style was what they learned from the dragons. However like the Nords maybe they got restless of the Dragons rule and overthrew them, “eating” them. And in their search for a person who could do it better they found Reman.

[@skynyrdjesus]

Dragons are by all accounts the first beings in creation, and some like Alduin even predate the final incarnation of Nirn. His role was to devour and destroy the failed creations after all. So trying to place their origins in the modern landscape is a bit redundant, as they predate the sundering of the continents, and having lived on the ancient Pangea if you will, almost certainly live or lived on every landmass before the proliferation of man and mer. The Akavirri style present in Goldbrand is likely just because the most notable example of Akavirri immigrants to Tamriel were the ancient Dragonguard of Reman. Alduin being present on Skyrim and likely Atmora sets that as the center of "modern" dragon civilization, as he has been their leader and firstborn for all of history, and likely the only reason the Akavirri were successful dragon hunters is due to his absence. I doubt there was ever a Dovahkiin present on Akavir, because there was never the threat of slain dragons being resurrected.

[@robertpirtle7642]

Also I think new Dragons come into Tamriel, that's why we have elder and ancient dragons.

[@smoltoaster]

i love these podcasts

[@crazyfool7685]

My favorite dragon is the one In the soul cairn.

[@KheptlaxaXonu]

Think of Ysgramor as a medieval european King and the Dragon Priests as the Papacy.

[@mudcrabmenace8534]

You should do a video on what Elder Scrolls spin offs you’d like to see - like Arkane doing a game on the Thieves Guild, or the Dark Brotherhood or Morag Tong

[@CareraDrift]

This Podcast was peak Elder Scrolls Content is truly sad its not here anymore

[@rileyholloway9182]

At the start taking about dragons and wyverns, if Bethesda state that a wolf in their game is a dragon, then they would be correct. It’s creative liberty. If they say that a wyvern is a dragon, then it is a dragon because it’s their universe, their rules. The same way dwarves aren’t technically dwarves in the elder scrolls.

[@briarrosegael2015]

Hell you don’t even have to give their detractors that. Dragons don’t really have unifying characteristics barring abstract ones such as power. Dragons aren’t a single thing from a single culture. Dragons are categorized in a similar way to vampires are in fiction. « Actually Nosferatu is a « kind » of vampire, as are Baobhan Sidhe, Soucouyant, and strigoi.” Dragons have that exact “creative liberty” in our world as well, but modern fantasy taxonomy is treated as if it was there from the beginning. Dragons don’t have to have scales, some have feathers. They don’t have to have legs or wings, or even breathe fire. Humans can be dragons because we have vague associations of what that even means and we do no service by restricting ourselves to medieval European depictions(they aren’t really even that tbh.).

[@rileyholloway9182]

La promesse de la Fierté true, and plus the father of fantasy’s dragon, Smaug, was only four limbed. So even fantasy limitations don’t seem to matter. Don’t know why people get salty over dragons and wyverns.

[@Kucoz]

"Dragons are cool. I like dragons" The content I wait all week for

[@BruceNorris-Chucklee]

Second favorite podcast. Y’all know the first. 💪🏽🐵

[@itssomedonkus5700]

Love these podcasts, so glad you guys started these, keep doing the Nines work 🤘🏻

[@bradleythomas3]

Killing Mirak gives you all the souls he absorbed from dragons you kill. I think dragon souls are free after a dragonborn dies.

[@Dereko123]

people who do the "well actually theyre not dragons theyre wyverns" are enemies of fun

[@JesperRoos]

they are enemies of IQ

[@mitchryan257]

We need to give quadruped dragons a name so they can just fit under the genus “dragon.”

[@skylerinscore5747]

The ouroboros of Norse mythology is Jormungadr. He's literally holding his own tail as he encircles the realm of Midgard and when he leaves the ocean, Ragnarok is starting

[@setokaiba3458]

Our new tribunal. Scott, to speculate. Drew, the keeper of knowledge. Michael, to keep us grounded and to rationalize.

[@ambrose9821]

The random nameless dragons do speak but it's in their own language, and you more often hear it from elder dragons and in particular legendary dragons, but most any of them have a couple of lines they can say, whether they do or not is another story, most of the time you'll end the fight before really hearing any, but i remember the first time it hit me as a player I just heard the dragon have a voice line, and it was a frost dragon or something, it said something in its own language and referred to me as dovahkiin and I was just like, woah they can do that? 🤨 (I'd probably played for years before then and don't think I'd ever heard any but the ones in the story speak)

[@ewanmacdonald8466]

Parthanax is chilling out with Vivec and the Neravarine

[@legoyoda9026]

Thank you fudgemuppet very cool

[@humanbeing9340]

What we see reflected in skyrim is comprehension and attainment of all symbolism. This cannot be learnt, but rather it is given through the initiation process of self realisation.

[@nepnep1453]

During some of the lists about top 10 races and gods you guys would mention how much you liked Wood Elven culture. A podcast on that would be cool

[@vfox1582]

The desire, the hunger to dominate, and not even a single mention of Molag Bal. Just as Vampires were a corruption of Humans, Elves and the beast Races, it wouldn't be too far of a reach to say that Molag Bal couldn't have meddled with the desires of dragons.

[@aidanfaulds4529]

Why would an immortal race of flying lizards be pressured to expand during any space of time? If they’re immortal, they likely don’t feel the need to expand as fast as possible.

[@indiana47]

I agree with Michael the TES6 will have 1 or more dragons most likely as a side quest. The side quest would be very prominant though like Lost to the Ages or a daedric one, or possibly part of a faction questline, because it would be a throwback like Solstiem is or just on the virtue of it being a damn dragon.

[@yawnos]

I think Akatosh did create the dragons, but it was at a different time, when he was in a different temperament. Don't forget about the early dawn wars the Ehlnofey and the Old Ehlnofey (whom we know from the septimus signus quest that they are actually related genetically to modern elves as septimus gets you to create fake Dwemer blood from the the blood of the other elves, but not from the human races.) Akatosh back then was not on friendly terms with the Humans. as time passed or perhaps even as kalpas passed akatosh changes and nords end up learning the THUM due to the intervention of another god. Perhaps paarthurnax and the dragon born (along with the dragon fires and all that) are a representation of the change in Akatosh over time. In fact the creation of Alduin himself could be an example of akatosh's early anger against the world the lorkhan had created. He attempted the create Alduin to unmake the world. but in an almost Sheogorath twist perhaps that what triggers the start of the new kalpa in some way?

[@seanstacks3436]

There's so many possibilities for new episodes, I can't wait to see what you all do next, thank you all for the awesome content.

[@user-tp5yb4hr4w]

i want them to read fan fiction. but i doubt they will. theres some really good fan fiction out there. some is a little cringe but there are some that are amazingly written by very talented ppl, and i think fudgmuppet would do the stories a good service if read by their masterful story telling, i also like the style of camelworks as well.

[@chrispakdawg9922]

Fuxking hype i miss these half the time

[@SophiaAstatine]

Not sure how afraid people have historically been of birds of prey. They can't even survive meeting an octopus without human interference.

[@theysaidimasian9766]

"ITZ n0t dRAgUn, ItZ YbRn" Lmao

[@UpcastDC]

Dragons consuming each other and taking on contradictve souls is what causes the timeline convergence or dragon break. A thought I had.

[@alexanderwhittaker5855]

For the next podcast, what about the player character and their role as 'the prisoner'. Maybe talk about characters we don't play that also may fill this role, like our beloved Pelinal!

[@twinphalanx4465]

I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this as somebody who suffers with ADHD and constantly cuts off my friends and family and everyone around me, I do not mean it. I understand what drew and Michael are doing because I've been kind of binging these and I noticed Scott cuts in a lot and I know what he's doing because I do this exact same thing he wants to participate. He really wants to feel like he's in the conversation and like you should be there and you can tell James, Michael or his friends because they deal with it. You see the videos in their expressions. It's beautiful. I can see what they're doing. They're prompting Scott because they know he's going to butt in any way. A lot of knowledge about the older schools and he wants to just this interesting top ic. Oh and then there's this and that and this and that and remember this guys this is awesome. Scott you are my brother

[@Gwagia]

If you ignore the Kill Parthunax mission from the blades, and keep interacting with Parthunax while increasing the blades strength with recruits. Eventually the Blades tell you how wrong they were and how they will always look to you for wisdom. Therefore Parthinax lives and eventually you will see Parthunax at the Blades hideout/base speaking with the old guy and they are having an amicable conversation.

[@LandStrider23]

Is this for real?

[@Gwagia]

@@LandStrider23 Yes, i have had it happen on 2 seperate characters. There may be other requisites needed that i am not aware of.

[@LandStrider23]

@@Gwagia cool, thanks for sharing

[@rowanfinnegan8358]

you know i just realised the dragons are really similar ideaology wise and power wise to the telvani, both think power makes you right, both use extremely powerful magic and both live for longer than men and see themselves as superior to men, i wonder how they would interact.

[@lonelypancake5979]

I have personally witnessed Neloth murder three dragons to death. I don't think the other telivani wizards will be much different...

[@lonelypancake5979]

Telvani* Not sure how that "I" got in there

[@rowanfinnegan8358]

@@lonelypancake5979 Screw the dragonborn, neloth could, lore-wise probably literally soul trap and kill all dragons on his own. the soul cairn would be a bit more interesting after that tho lmao

[@Samzillah]

Dragons would probably find them extremely juvenile and arrogant.

[@EinFelsbrocken]

@@rowanfinnegan8358 lol then why does he keep dying to my lvl 3 characters wielding a steel sword with paralyze for 5s 😂😂 Nah I know he's badass and powerful and all lorewise; but I always go whack him relatively early for some money and there just isnt a proportional representation of his power ingame 😃

[@EJDubbz]

18:30. I always wondered if Alduin wasn't just using the LDB to consolidate all the shards of Aka so he could eat them and end the world, kalpa or whatever. I like the idea that although the LDB thinks they are saving the world, they are just hastening it's end every time they kill a dragon.

[@patembersouls]

Wow you guys changed the definition of intelligence 3 times 😂

[@divozo4424]

I assume the Jills were created by Anui-El/Aka, and the Dragons were created during the middle dawn when Akatosh was created and, like Talos, were retroactively introduced throughout time. Which would explain skyrim's dragon wars. Maybe the Jills made the dragons to lift the burden of Auriel's separation with Alduin (creating Akatosh)?

[@divozo4424]

This would also somewhat explain nord's storm voice/thu'um coming from Kyne and then Paarthurnax teaching them dovahzuul, then thu'um requiring dovahzuul afterwards

[@src6339]

I'm going to have to adress this popular misconception that dragons are some kind of large surpantine legendary creature usually depicted as a huge bat winged fire breathing, scaly lizard or snake like creature when we all know that very well that dragon is a bone morphogentic protein (DRG11- responsive axonal guidance and outgrowth of neurite) that in humans is encoded by the RGMB gene. But seriously, I wonder if the biologists that descoverd this split their time evenly between making the discovery and thinking of an acronym.

[@cellem6216]

How do I put this... All the dragon souls are broken pieces of Aka (time); absorbing each other, growing stronger, bigger, and more complete. Imagine if a dragon soul was able to absorb all (or most of) the others. A dragon souls need to "dominate" is it's natural need to reform itself together. Also, Alduin's dragon soul was absorbed into the much larger dragon soul present in Aetherius.

[@esper6119]

On the thing of Alduin eating Paarthunaax, I was actually thinking when Scott first brought it up that, like. It could help to explain why Paarthunaax went from this gigatyrant to the chatty ol' wise sage grampa figure he became -- if he absorbed that much knowledge, that many perspectives and insights, you almost kinda have to imagine that it'd really broaden *his* perspective in turn not... literally changing his personality, but doing so indirectly, as time and knowledge does to anyone, y'know? that being said, he is just also really fuckin' old he could just be at the grandpa stage of his life

[@wednesdaynightbusiness6296]

My epic fan theory about the dragons is that they were crafted by the time god in order to end the kalpa and eat time, perhaps because time is finite and its bonds break as it stretches. But because the time god is clearly not omnipotent (its divine manifestations split into Akatosh and Auriel (bipolar), it's finite etc.) it is thus flawed, and so when it created Alduin and his dragons to swallow time, it gave them biological forms without genitalia or digestive systems. This could mean they'd have the urge to mate and feed, but would be totally unable to do it, leading to them channeling their aggression into domineering, which they do to simulate sex and eating prey.

[@Connordaboss45]

Better mention the chantry of akatosh that apparently has glades full of dragons they protect

[@cargorunner9960]

I just really hope that there is a simple linear time line in Starfield and none of these dragon breaks every time the developers think of something cool they want to add !

[@MidoriOfTheShuinsen]

Starfield is a completely different universe, so don't worry. However, just because the Monkey's Paw demands it... Granted. Nothing interesting will ever happen in Starfield, and the gameplay will be very on-rails, with every "event" in game being a quicktime event.

[@kongilian]

Theory: Merethic Era was meant to be the end of the previous Kalpa, and men were meant to take over in the new cycle anyways.

[@zacharyash2050]

What if the dragons themselves, or at least Alduin in his essence of being a dragon, and the cult/war was a timeline that came about because of a Dragon Break? When the Imperial Cult caused a Dragon Break to seperate Akatosh and Auirel, one of the retroactive effects was the proliferation of dragons or the worship/Alduin giving up his original goal to end Calpas for domination? He could have been the first born of the creation of Akatosh being split from the idea of the Elven time God, or the fall to domination was a result of the break. Just a thought I have been having ever since getting heavy into the dragon lore.

[@StarlitSeafoam]

Oooo, now THAT is a fascinating idea. Maybe Alduin is Auri-el; he is always fighting Shor in Nord myth, just like Auri-el fought Lorkahn... And would fit nicely with that one Black Book about the many lives of Ysgramor...

[@antonakesson]

I was one of those "Wyverns aren't dragons!" kind of people and was stubborn about it until Camel did his debunking video on it at which point I felt stupid XD. I still like the six limbed dragons better, so I wish there was a mod that did that for Skyrim, but I have come to accept the fact that wyverns are dragons. I will still be firm that some serpents aren't dragons like Jörmandgundr but dragons can be anything it is my personal definition.

[@trekkasavallie8603]

Me too, just this year I think it was that same video, I hate the world for it, but yeah, doesn't change my feelings that wyverns are inferior, though still badass, compared to my four-legged brothers and sisters.

[@briarrosegael2015]

It honestly probably comes from dnd and is a modern notion. Older dragons didn’t even breathe fire all the time! I believe that was codified by Beowulf. Dragon can be anything jormungundr can actually be described as a dragon. Humans can be described as dragons because the term doesn’t really have anything concrete.

[@baronofbahlingen9662]

La promesse de la Fierté I think Wyvern was the name of a welsh dragon of older mythology and the name was later applied, as Drew said, by heraldists to mean all dragons with two legs and two wings. It’s a distinction that only exists for symbology and doesn’t mean they aren’t dragons. It’s like saying tuna aren’t fish

[@trashman6354]

I like the thought of dragons/dragonborns going insane because they are just hearing voices of absorbed souls