The Thalmor's Ultimate Goal & The Towers Theory | The Elder Scrolls Podcast #7

[@noisykrickett7758]

I think that as much as we know about the Thalmor, the High Elves, and the overall structure of the world that they may actually be jealous of Talos on a cultural level. A human being was able to achieve godhood and return to his aedric ancestors and the elves haven’t been able to do something like that themselves.

[@JB-xl2jc]

Part jealousy, part incongruity with a core tenet of their beliefs. Their beliefs are essentially that the Mer are superior because they descend most directly from the Et'ada, and that thus they are the only ones still capable of ascending. For a man to do it, not only is it embarrassing (since they've largely failed since Auri-El and Xarxes' time) but also incongruent with a major part of their entire world view. So perhaps they really do believe that Talos didn't ascend, or are offended by the fact even if they do believe it. Perhaps they think he mantled someone else (Lorkhan perhaps?) and the humans are worshipping him as Talos in ignorance of that. Regardless, the context does make it much more clear why the Thalmor would have pushed to outlaw Talos worship (although I think a more direct reason was that they knew it would cause political strife within Skyrim which they could use to further undermine Imperial control, especially with useful- if unwilling or unknowning- assets like Ulfric. I believe their goal from the very signing of the Concordat was to use the stipulations to weaken the Empire for a round 2. Elves live for centuries, they don't mind waiting a few decades to ease the way considerably. And with Skyrim trying to secede in a bloody conflict and Hammerfell already gone, it looks like they're doing well.. of course, then enters the protagonist of TESVI...)

[@noangles1564]

So in short. They're super salty

[@Rodiacreed]

Talos is a fusion of 3 humans though. People believe all 3 are the same being so he comes off as this ultra being but really it was the combined lifetime of 3 individuals is what made Talos a god. As far as we know no mortal can become a true god on their personal merit alone.

[@noangles1564]

@@Rodiacreed But thats still humans ascending to True God hood. No Elf besides 'maybe' Vivec, and Mannimarco has done so

[@JB-xl2jc]

Rodiacreed That’s speculation, we have differing accounts of Talos’s lifetime but it’s entirely possible that a) he changed his name, b) some of the stories are wrong, or c) he modified some past events when he was achieving apotheosis and/or using the Numidium (c would be very complicated to sort through).

[@Cpint]

Last time I was this early I could still worship Talos.

[@TwinkleToes69]

Same here

[@michaelpettersson4919]

You still can. Join the Stormcloaks! Unless you from the Forgotten Realms, their Talos are nasty.

[@TheHortoncrow]

That moment when a bunch of N'wah's are babbeling about some Nedic guy they can't pretend still cares about them. But say ONE fucking thing about Azura......

[@Ghost7065]

Praise the 9

[@TheHortoncrow]

@@Ghost7065 "What do you want Outlander?"

[@Jimmyinvictus]

TES won't end; you forgot the most powerful of the Towers: the Money Tower. The Thalmor can rage in impotent existential angst, but Bethesda will never allow the Money Tower to be deactivated. TES is safe, ladies and gentlemen.

[@itsclemtime2357]

Lmfao

[@itsclemtime2357]

This like made my day

[@DavidbarZeus1]

Is it? Or could we see the beginning of another kalpa cycle?

[@Werrf1]

TES is safe until the release of Elder Scrolls '76.

[@MoonMoverGaming]

Todd is Lorkhan.

[@cartoonhistory353]

Drew has all the answers he just sits back

[@ffa2dramachick]

Yup! Speak up more Drew!!! He's too nice to interrupt Scott and Michael... But you can see his inner dialogue whenever he heads to the mic "oh, I know all the dates, names, and details... Oh, they're talking, nvm." .

[@SubjectiveCinema]

Drew is for real a bad ass

[@Xolcm]

I recently rewatchedThe Lord of the Rings, and I realised that in the end, the elves get what the Thalmor want - to go back to their ancestral home - and they get it by doing the one thing that the Thalmor never can: they willingly give the world to humans.

[@thalmoragent9344]

That's an interesting take. I've never seen Lord of the Rings, but that sounds like an interesting idea. So maybe giving Mundus to Man, since Lorkhan made it and Man is his creation, is key. Theoretically, the Thalmor shouldn't want too rule Mundus if it's a plane belonging too the Trickster God. Although how would they accomplish this? Like, let Man have most of the world and the Elves remain isolated, not wanting to rule them.

[@diedonthevine]

And why would they do that in TES? They are not dying in any shape of form. If anything, they are actually winning now and have the advantage. These are not the same universes or the same kind of elves.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@diedonthevine True, I suppose it's just the concept of it. Humans and Elves at odds, and the Elves figure to just let the humans have it. I haven't seen Lord of the Rings, so I'm not too familiar with it all. Granted you're right, the Elves are basically winning at this point, aside from Hammerfell, but it's not in the Empire anymore so, shouldn't be a concern in their book anymore.

[@darkpuppetlordful]

I mean it was more so about elves learning to accept non elves (as shown by Legolas and Gimili bonding and Galadriel giving Gimili the gift of her hair). They join in hand with the mortal races of middle earth to banish evil which allows them to go to their version of an afterlife. I do think the mer have a bit of a Tolkien elf thing going on, but fundamentally the Aldmeri dominion needs to be disbanded and the Altmer need to learn that mortal life is a gift from their gods not torment.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@darkpuppetlordful Not necessarily. The first couple Aldmeri Dominions were pretty good, and Queen Ayrenn actually had laws that allowed other races into the fold. It's the current Thalmor that are the problem, even other Altmer in Summerset don't like them. As for the concept of Mortality. It's different to the Tolkien universe, and the races of Elves gave a reason they don't like Mundus. Lorkhan lied to their ancestors, tricking them into giving up their power for Mundus, a plane that he would ultimate be ruler of since he was the one who had came to the others with the idea/concept Mer have their own side of the story that is just as valid as the humans. Whether Lorkhan lied or not can still be up for debate, but the point is that the Elves always remained loyal to the Forces of Order and Stasis, which are just important as Lorkhan's Chaos and Change. You can't call one evil or good, cause it would be like calling hot or cold good or bad, doesn't work like that. Mortality can be seen as a gift or a curse, or in many cases, both. The Mer see it as the Daedric Realm of Mortality, it's Daedric Prince being Lorkhan. The reason the Mer view the world the way they do is from their belief and side of the story that Lorkhan deceived the other Aedra and stole their power, and that he didn't give them a choice in the matter of whether they wanted to partake or not. The Daedra (most of them, aside from Malacath and Meridia) never helped him anyways, and so weren't affected. The Aldmeri Dominion can remain, but I believe they should try and make it consist of all the Races/Provinces of Mer, and not any Man, with the exception of perhaps the Khajit, who have joined willingly with them in the past. They don't need to wage war on the Empire, just allow for the Races of Mer to stay away from the other races of Man, and run themselves as a civilization of Elves. Let the Empire of Man govern and do whatever they want, and if they go off infighting or expanding while causing wars like the Humans often do, well, so be it, it won't be the Elves problem anymore.

[@morvancamirand5299]

I hope ES6 has several factions with as far reaching goals as the Thalmor. The Blades are dead to me after they mistakenly ordered the murder of Paarthurnax. I also would like a detect lie aspect of the speech skill tree so that characters like that could demonstrate their manipulative tendencies without it being overt magic -- that would also spice up the dialogue.

[@tarnyowl6068]

I just want to play as a goblin :(

[@morvancamirand5299]

@@tarnyowl6068 There has to be a mod for that.

[@Bookofwords]

I'm pretty afraid for the next TES... they have denied updating their games engine and everything...I have a feeling it will look and play like a Skyrim mod and have nothing new added but a different story and area... since its the same engine, I got a feeling we can expect all the same bugs and glitches too

[@tarnyowl6068]

Morvan Camirand the story and character interactions will never be tailored around being a goblin tho.

[@morvancamirand5299]

@@tarnyowl6068 The story isn't tailored for the most races either -- the player's race is only mentioned a few times, and I imagine if they were included it could be fun. That said, I am assuming a some amount of honest work.

[@steffanjones8644]

It's nice watching Michael's beard grow with every podcast episode

[@gptechnologiesmangalore6909]

So does his god energy

[@machineunit]

Is it really "nice"?

[@kellyannecoll]

I got my game booted up, my snacks, my honningbrew mead, and an hour of new fudgemuppet. Perfect Sunday night! 🥰

[@torhenryandreassen6144]

I want to join the Thalmor in the next game, was really disappointed when there were no unique interactions with the Thalmor as a Altmer in Skyrim. Joining the Thalmor is comparable to joining the Dark Brotherhood; a Sithis worsipping cult that, essentially, relish in sending soul to the void and unmake mortality. The Thalmor wants to undo creation so they can return to Aetherius, no doubt there would be Mer and non-Mer who buy into this idea of being rid of their mortal forms to find ultimate peace outside of Mundus. I love games where the point does not have to be the valiant hero who follows the good path and saves the day, games like Tyranny do this well. I get that Bethesda's games thus far have been stories about Saves-the-Day (TM) but I would really love the opportunity for a deeper experience in the Elder Scrolls universe.

[@RobertMalachowski]

I think it’d be interesting if the player was on the losing side. I’ve heard that the Dominion wins, but the info is from a developer who doesn’t work at Bethesda anymore. I don’t know how sequels would work after that anyway. What are you after exactly, siding against cultures before you’ve experienced them for the sake of being “bad” and ruining Sheor’s creation just because some elves can’t appreciate what they have?

[@torhenryandreassen6144]

@@RobertMalachowski Yeah, being on the losing side would be dope too! And I've got nothing against the cultures of Hammerfell, or any other ones, to be honest - every province/race had some cool unique quirks to them both in-game and in the lore in general. I just genuinely believe the Thalmor are right: Mer are superior over the races of Man! Of course, their theory about how to umake creation might be wrong but, imagine, if we had a game where we had the Thalmor accomplish what they wanted, whether or not we sided with them, and it horribly backfires? That could even be the start of the game! Perhaps we're a prisonor somehow witnessing them trying to complete some sort of ritual and it sparks some sort of crisis!

[@highground5433]

@@RobertMalachowski I do hope that is true

[@torhenryandreassen6144]

@@cassi5420 In real life that shit is just wrong and stupid, obviously there are little to no difference between the different "races" of man irl. But in Elder Scrolls? Ignoring gameplay for a moment, how would the avarage human ever measure up to the avarage Altmer? They live longer, are resistant to disease, are more capable in magic - which, to me, translates to more intelligence. Human races in Elder Scrolls have added scarcely little to the world other than death and tradegy - take the slaughter of the Falmer, for instance - while nearly everythink related to culture, science and government can be traced back to the races of Mer! The Thalmor's day-to-day xenophobia is a bit over the top, I got to say - but that's obviously just to paint them as the bad guys, cause being a racist is not really a good trait - but their core idea is something I can get behind. And, in my mind, there are two main 'schools' of thought within the Thalmor, one being the one we see the most of in-game, who are just blatant jerks and xenophobes, and the other being the more benign, but in truth no less racist, 'white-man's burden' sort of view - who see it as their duty to shepard the younger races, and make decisions for them. Uhm, makes sense?

[@machineunit]

@@torhenryandreassen6144 100%. There's really no debate. I don't get why people argue against racial advantages and disadvantages when the lore makes it clear that certain races just have inate advantages. And those advantages weigh differently. Side note, I really hope Bethesda doesn't go super justice warrior and start removing racial bonuses and making players just pick whatever bonuses they want for whatever race they pick. That would be super lame.

[@DrLynch2009]

Spread! Your wings! AURORAN GOLDEN EAGLE!!

[@billnyetheblackguy8311]

A man of culture I see

[@AllINAllmusic]

Nemalauta Magnus Ada Sino Emero! *dun-tun-dun-tun-dun-tun*

[@ConformingToEmptiness]

A Mer of purity, I assume.

[@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384]

80,610

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@ConformingToEmptiness Praise Queen Ayrenn, she was a true Queen of Summerset 🥲

[@louisxivkingoffranceandnav4489]

For the monarchy in Summerset, I always assumed they kept them(because I would think that the thalmor view the royal family as the perfect example of what a pure Altmer should be) but they just made the king/queen into a figure head. Also if thats the case then the idea that there is the secret council that really rules the Aldmeri Dominion is more solid because now all their enemies will probably aim the swords at the king/queen while the council sits safely in the shadows

[@joegrimes9232]

Probably, an extremist zealotry group within the Altmer chain seized power around the time of the Oblivion Crisis, an influential group of conservative mages and nobles whom decided to reclaim the Isles and carve back territory in the name of National pride. Alas like the parallels to real life, it didn't end there. Make no mistake - the Thalmor are the kingmakers and control the chessboard. That's how I see them by 4E. Alinor is no longer a shining crystal of the Isles, rather a place now of suspiscion and divine control by a shadowy group of opportunists. All non Altmer have been expelled or purged. Dissent is purged, democracy, purged, free thought purged. It's a choking city the bird that once soared over the dominion is decaying, in a guilted cage frightened to fly.

[@EyeOfMagnus4E201]

@@joegrimes9232 I might be wrong, but the 4th era Thalmor’s ideology is so diametrically opposed to the 2nd era’s values that I think the new Thalmor are a different group that simply appropriated the original Thalmor’s name for propaganda purposes, though I suppose over the period of almost a thousand years that any organization’s values could change.

[@adventurebrozz]

This is what I’m looking for in these podcasts. A HUGE reason I love you guys is because you can always link your love and knowledge of real life history and mythology with the love and passion from the elder scrolls lore and mythology. While I don’t think the history of the high elves is all the unique and interesting, it’s 100% indisputable that they play a crucial rule in the ending of the current Kalpa cycle, and so understanding what they are now, the transition from the second AD to the third AD, how they relate to the adamantine tower, and their beliefs around achieving immortality through the extinction of man themself rather than just the outlaw of Talos is one of my favorite things about TES!!!! I hope you guys keep getting into these kinds of conversations on the pod, really wanna hear you guys discuss the adamantine tower in depth sometime!!

[@FudgeMuppet]

Thanks for the support! We'll do our best to keep the cool discussions coming!

[@armandpeanutspinou3430]

You dont need to make the moon disappear, you just need to hide it. Pretty sure a good illusion mage could do something like that

[@Trephining]

Right. Or, and this is probably more difficult than simply hiding a moon (or moons, as two are being discussed in this context), a really good alteration mage (maybe illusion too, but thinking more alteration here) could make a certain person, people, or entire group of people unable to see a moon or moons. That's akin to Paralysis or Detect Life (Undetect Moon, haha), or maybe more akin to Muffle or Invisibility, in a narrow way, making only the moons "invisible" to those people. But agree with the overall sentiment completely.

[@ashwhiteforest9078]

It affected khajiit births, if I recall. That rules out illusion.

[@nightingalepottery5500]

​@@ashwhiteforest9078 maybe it was illusion and alteration. Or maybe just pure alteration. There's tons of workarounds

[@ashwhiteforest9078]

@@nightingalepottery5500 If it was both, to a degree as to affect an entire, or at least seemingly entire species, then the Thalmor are nothing to fuck with. And I say this in all due respect if that is the case. Such an accomplishment is Tiber Septim levels of legendary.

[@nightingalepottery5500]

@@ashwhiteforest9078 well, the whole series sorta plays fast and loose with its power scale and how powerful some people are

[@Rodiacreed]

High Elves are my favourite race so I play as one but even when I meet Thalmor agents as an altmer they are just as condescending as they would be towards humans. I just don't like how blatantly evil Bethesda made them, they even connected them to the daedra. They should have made them more like Dagoth Ur who is evil but with understadable philosophy. Tiber Septim destroying Summerset with the Numidium was a true war crime so why didn't they make the Thalmor revolve around that event and them wanting justice in a twisted way for that act?

[@highground5433]

I feel the same and have a hard time playing any other character other than a high elf but thalmor being not so nice is just laziness and bad writing

[@EJDubbz]

Let's not even talk about how badly written the Ancano part of the college of winterhold quest is.

[@highground5433]

@@EJDubbz lol yeah

[@OuterRimPride]

They’re ‘written’ to have a fairly good reason for their actions. Dialogue in games is often pretty cliché evil

[@SuperNeospace]

Hey man, the high elves wanna go back to being spirits. Tiber Septim just gave them the express ticket

[@ZorroLocoStudios]

Damn, I got kinda scared when you guys started talking about how the Towers represent a "story" and are destroyed when that story ends, and thinking about how the Adamantine Tower is basically the story of the whole world...I was just thinking, they could straight up END the whole series in the next game lol. I doubt they'd actually do that, but they keep talking about how big and bombastic they want it to be, so who knows? Great discussion as usual!

[@kuzan421]

well, alduin was technically supposed to end the world but you stop him. they could make the towers that important, and just not end the series by having the main character in elder scrolls 6 successfully stop them

[@NOHTenma]

That's probs the meta-reason TES continues. Your job as the hero is to keep the world from ending-- repeatedly. Bethesda is the real pantheon of daedra who are stuck in Mundus and want you as the player to continue this particular Kalpas going. Meta-headcanon.

[@wiwysova]

They want every game to be as big and bombastic and safe and vapid as possible so they can keep getting normie bucks, time after time. Normies ruin everything 🥺

[@Gotten37]

One of my favorite things to do in Skyrim...killing Thalmor on sight.

[@highground5433]

I went to every imperial held fort in skyrim and slaughtered each and every imperial....

[@ilikethespikeman2552]

@@highground5433 Pelenial Whitestrake DEMANDS your location

[@highground5433]

@@ilikethespikeman2552 and he shall have it let him challenge me he will fall like every other imperial dog

[@kalebb1226]

SKYRIM FOR THE GOURDS!

[@highground5433]

@@kalebb1226 lol yes

[@Dobbinator817]

Thalmor: no stop, you can't keep getting favoured by the gods and have your emperor ascend as a new god, we are the direct descendants of the god, its our right Humanity: hahah akatosh, kynareth and shor go brrrrrrrrr

[@thaddeushill7080]

Errrr I'd say nords go brrrr but it's probably the argonians

[@AgarthaFan]

The worm reports success

[@altalexonline]

Like a dream come true! Early morning upload before work AND it’s another hour long podcast. Now I can listen to something while I work! Love you guys. ❤️

[@datmanking4080]

I love this theory, I think having the thalmor become the ultimate villain in tes would be great. I'd love to have an es game where you have to fight the thalmor with the help of the empire to save tamriel, but I also feel like one game couldn't capture the scale of another great war and the thalmors conquest. If Bethesda pulled it off though, it'd be amazing

[@highground5433]

I hope the Bethesda Can do a plot twist and have the thalmor as good guys the empire being the good guys is so predictable and frankly just not interesting

[@etinarcadiaego7424]

Being a divine being in TES is like being a KZbinr, those with more subscribers possess greater power those with none wither and die lol

[@nocturnal101ravenous6]

Well there are apparently a lot more daedra, they don't bother with Mundus however, the ones we know of are the ones that interact with mortals.

[@mikealpha4169]

I don't think the gods, aedra or daedra, in TES need followers at all, they might need souls but I'm not even sure they need that other for entertainment so Talos is probably alive and well after all

[@nocturnal101ravenous6]

@@mikealpha4169 Well yes and no. Most daedra princes don't consume souls, but there are a few that do. Daedra appear as people want to see them, but by the same token can choose how they want to be seen by taking forms with peoples beliefs shaping or solidifying the effect, example is Azura, Meridia, and Nocturnal, they are very very vain and pride themselves on how good looking they appear as females, thus peoples perceptions of them and how they appear are sexualized. Azura is a great example because she is very particular in which ways she is perceived and trying to change that, well lets just say it isn't a good life choice, as the Dwemer with the petal in the box found out. Also look at Azura's Star quest, she is absolutely pissed some mortal tried to misuse it, typically Artifacts of the Aedra and daedra tend to disappear from those who aren't worthy of wielding them, or end up getting nixed to pass the artifact to a more worthy champion. Daedra gain power from worship, however there are some that don't like this, Peryite is an example as Worship can alter the Daedra and more specifically change the realm of Oblivion they inhabit. Also keep in mind Bethesda has stated before there are more Aedra and Daedra that exist the ones who don't bother with mortals are not really known and Aedra are known and forgotten based on beliefs and what is taught or known. Aedra are a bit different as they just don't appear regularly to say hey this is me or not me, the Imperial Pantheon is an example, gods are overlapped across pantheons from across Tamriel and some may very well be Daedra interpreted as Aedra - they don't particularly care in most cases how they are shown just that people believe in the primal forces they represent. That can mold or change a being, particularly in different kalpa cycles. Supposedly to end the Kalpa, the towers must be severed, that is Alduin's purpose, yet in this Kalpa he chose not to do what he was supposed to do, as an aspect he is subject to belief so human worshipping dragons may have altered how things were supposed to play out, and this isn't an isolated event Human beliefs have caused many major issues.

[@tylerroseclemons9049]

What if Paarthurnax were the “heart” of the Snowthroat Tower and the canon choice is for the Dragonborn to kill him, thereby deactivating that tower?

[@danielshore1457]

I feel like that perhaps while paarthanax is the heart of the tower I dont think the Canon choice is to kill him, at the end of the main story paarthanax becomes the leader of the remaining dragons, I think perhaps the next game would have a war with skyrim against the aldmeri dominion and they try to attack high rock at the same time, perhaps they don't know what the heart of the tower is so like that's why they wanted the civil war to be prolonged to like justify their presence in skyrim to try and find out what the heart is

[@rafaeldelgado7243]

I always thought that the part about skyrim of the prophecy was about the civil war

[@wiwysova]

That wouldn't be canon. No one with worth a damn killed parthanax.

[@danielwisniewski4005]

If that is the canon choice, then my own life’s canon choice is not buying Elder Scrolls 6

[@Trephining]

No way would that be the decision Bethesda makes if they have any ability whatsoever to read the opinions of their customer base, which seemed to vehemently reject the notion of the player killing Paarthurnax.

[@AWingedOne]

I'm sure everyone has their ideal next TES, but I found myself kind of fixated on this idea that vibes very well with The Tower Theory(My idea being for the main questline). It being that in TES 6 your playable character either can raise an avatar of Talos back to godhood atop the Adamantine Tower, or choose to destroy/kill that avatar atop the Tower, in one way ensuring the tower stays ever activated or deactivating the tower and destroying the mortal realm.

[@marchantofcabbage3517]

Last time I was this early the septim blood line was alive

[@lacerda6804]

Uriel in Akavri conspiracy theorist: So you mean, you are still early?

[@deebopper]

Man this is such a good podcast to fill me in on a bunch of the history of the Elder Scrolls. Great job guys, looking forward to getting through the rest of them.

[@MrDarthtelos]

The first Thalmor sounds like some kind of Secret Police.

[@joegrimes9232]

I get the sense Star Trek's Romulan's are an inspiration. The Thalmor are Trek's Tal Shiar

[@p.samedi2473]

The thalmor are basically the GRU, the GeStaPo of the summerset isles.

They are the fantasy version of Stasi.

[@MidoriOfTheShuinsen]

They're the SS. Everyone knows of them. Nobody knows their true goals.

[@paladin10seraph54]

A thought popped into my head, in Skyrim we don't actually see the heart of the tower.. The throat of the world. Or do we? The only structure or interactions we have are in high hrothgar and with paarthurnax. By killing paarthurnax, being the world eaters brother.. Wouldn't it be possible that paarthurnax IS the towers heart?

[@brettrichardson7924]

I started with only Skyrim and had missed out on the earlier games. All of your lore videos got me to start morrowind and I've been having a blast.

[@Aethuviel]

I got Skyrim five years ago, been learning up on the lore for the past year, and I'm wondering whether I should get Morrowind/Oblivion or wait for Skywind and Skyblivion, some time next century...

[@brettrichardson7924]

@@Aethuviel I would for sure play morrowind and oblivion as they are, morrowind is maybe the hardest to get into and understand coming from skyrim but wow it is fun once you get past the ui and bugs. I find spellmaking my own OP spells and flying across vvardenfell to be so freedom filling it's almost impossible to describe

[@josephirgang6470]

@Frida Also I would play the originals because I know atleast for Skywind it is confirmed to not be a remake of the original content, so you could miss out on vital original plot points etc.

[@toshiroyamada2443]

Love that bit of music right at the beginning. Never have played all the way through morrowind . I joined with oblivion

[@lavishtato]

I know im super late to this party... but my take on the OG Thalmor is more relative to like... Shaman in native american tribes. They hold onto culture and ensure their ideals are upheld- they are wise and knowledgable of all things altmer. And at certain points, leaders turned to their shaman for answers or to make decisions.

[@Werrf1]

I have a theory that the destruction of Alduin at the end of Skyrim could have caused a Dragon Break, potentially making all the possible outcomes of the Skyrim civil war canon, as well as things like the death of the Emperor, the destruction/survival of the Dark Brotherhood, etc. Thoughts?

[@RobertMalachowski]

I wouldn’t discount the Bloodmoon prophecy in Morrowind that says the third Empire ends. I imagine being a Stormcloak is like ripping the band-aid off.

[@thomastakesatollforthedark2231]

@@RobertMalachowski...what do you think the Stormcloacks do to the bigger empire? The empire might seem weak in Skyrim but that's only because all their replenishing routes are cut off and they have to get a bunch of farmers as soldiers

[@RobertMalachowski]

Thomas takes a toll for the dark Probably not much without the Dragonborn, but they’re a large faction stretching across Skyrim, potentially. Tiber Septim created the third Empire, they have an underlying reason to ally or make a truce, the elves are pushing them to war in the first place.

[@dutchpatriot17]

@@RobertMalachowski I really would dismiss it, since it says when the dragon dies the Empire dies. The Dragon's been dead for over 200 years by the time of TES V.

[@Werrf1]

@@RobertMalachowski If the evil faction winning the civil war becomes canon, you alienate all the players who chose to side with the Empire. Likewise, if you say the good guys won, then all the monsters who sided with the Stormcloaks are unhappy. You need some way for both outcomes to work - hence why I'm suggesting a Dragon Break. As for the Empire, I think we're buidling up to the founding of a Fourth Empire. The First, Second, and Third Empires all had some kind of divine support for their rulers; that was what the Mede dynasty lacked. A Dragon Break also provides a good mythological basis for a new Empire.

[@Knight-PaladinEleanor]

I hope you can join the thalmor in Elder scrolls 6 like only if you’re in the dominion races though. Altmer, bosmer, khajiit

[@highground5433]

I've always had an Incredible hope that Bethesda might incorporate that feature

[@zoidman94_55]

I've always thought that the Thalmor are, in some form or fashion, trying to seize control of the Towers (White-Gold, Adamantine, Red Mountain, Etc.) for some nefarious goal. It is my personal canon that the Towers are the keys to Aetherius. Perhaps they seek to open Mundus to Magnus and the other Magna-gi.

[@rustyk4645]

The Medes Empire is either drawing to a close, or shrinking. Not only does The Stormcloak Rebellion potentially reduce it, but Dark Brotherhood questline implies that there are forces in Cyrodill who are sick of the Medes.

[@thunderballs7252]

I really like the new podcast format. The classic informative videos have always been fantastic but listening to the guys have a back and forth conversation is really great.

[@chrischen8580]

The Thalmor sound a lot like the Covenant from the Halo universe. The same insane goal to divinity and being bent on eliminating humanity from existence. If you compare the towers to the rings it shows the Thalmor might be on a path to their own destruction as well

[@pennyisdreadful]

the rings are only a weapon to kill the flood tho and the prophets were lied to/lying to everyone about the great journey. The thalmor's version is actually legit. I definitely see where you're going with that tho and i like it lol

[@exxor9108]

When you think about it, the Thalmor may inevitably end up causing their own people to disappear off the face of Tamriel just like the Dwemer did. And if they plot to erase all reality, past present and future... were they ever really there to put those plans in action to begin with? They're creating a paradox that will end with their removal from the Elder Scrolls universe.

[@nicholasbrown668]

​@@exxor9108 bro the entire elder scrolls universe is a paradox

[@rodangrahf]

The Thalmor's plan is something straight out of a James Bond Villain.... Parody

[@Jagiru223]

It could work out as an explanation for talos worshipping to increase just by saying that the dragonborn emerged pretty much right after the white gold concordant, so regardless of player choices it would lead the public to think that talos has returned as you, and love or hate you for it. The new revival of talos could be referred to as, "Talos the dragonborn" or "Dragonborn Talos" after the player accends to the mantel of talos.

[@highground5433]

The Dragonborn could be any Race supporting anybody

[@SilverSurrepstitious]

I love going in KZbin and getting so excited cuz y’all let out a new video, your content is the best 🥰🥰

[@datmanking4080]

Another great podcast to listen to while animating! Love your vids guys, I would never have known so much about my fav fantasy worlds lore if not for you, thanks!

[@TheZombiesReanimated]

The Aldmeri Dominion seem to be based on Carthage and the Phoenicians (Though serve as the functional equivalent of the Ottoman empire). Carthage was what one might call a proto-constitutional monarchy, with the Monarch being subject to what could be called the aristocracy. Perhaps the Thalmor clique of this Aristocracy took control and formed the provisional government from this aristocracy? Though this is assuming that they had the same as the same form of government as Carthage, which may be incorrect.

[@syrupsmiles9384]

Lol poor Drew, i think he maybe got in 10 words this whole podcast 😂

[@TieskeVerstegen]

19:41 I'm not sure if she said it was an old family secret or something among those lines, but in Riften is a Fresh Goods merchant that uses ground up ice-wraith teeth to keep the goods fresh. Maybe thats how the Thalmor did it

[@Acronimz]

I watched the whole thing. Interesting talk

[@Acronimz]

I have a suggestion tho, you guys should add another member to these discussions. A clueless adoring fan of the elderscrolls lore. Someone who can ask questions.

[@el-violador]

I like to think the Thalmor didn't make the moon's disappear or reappear. Instead worked out why they were gone and when they would return and just took credit in a strategic sense

[@frostbyt3965]

I love these podcasts!! Thank you and keep up the great work guys!

[@ThePontiac001]

After hearing the whole goal of the thalmor theory thing it got me thinking... if they undo the towers and basically end time for this version of mundus, would that basically make Alduin's purpose obsolete? His whole gig is to end worlds and "eat" them for them to be remade. Tbh I wouldnt mind a podcast on the dragons, preferably Alduin and his purpose (it mostly because I love dragons but I remember watching a video on how alduin technically is so powerful he doesn't need to actually speak the thuum for it to work. I'd love to see a podcast on that) love these podcasts everytime. Keep up the Aedra's work good sirs!

[@treymartin8507]

Thanks for the podcast guys. You are killing it. Keep up the hard work.

[@dukedvl6977]

Yesss, I love these podcasts

[@passerby5735]

On the subject of the outcome of Skyrim and what ending will be canonical, they could use the death of Alduin, first son of Akatosh, as a dragonbreak. That way they can keep what they want and discard what would complicate their plans

[@a-7-781]

I feel like the thalmor's war on Talos is also due to the fact that his very existence is almost a personal insult to them. After all, they wish to return to being gods and see men as unworthy of that yet it was a man that achieved their goal of ascension before they could. It would be even more of a kick in the teeth for them if they know that talos is an oversoul of 3 separate men because that just adds another 2 that technically ascended

[@MidoriOfTheShuinsen]

Also doesn't help that Tiber Septim conquered them using the Numidium, meaning not only was it a Man who became a god before them, but the same Man who brought them low and forced them to kneel.

[@Kilgzzz]

I think the Thalmor are one of the coolest factions in the game. I like all the cloak and dagger type stuff

[@RobertMalachowski]

Fantasy puts a different lense on it, huh? I suppose I can agree as I side with Feudalism and Daggerfall in ES.

[@highground5433]

They are indeed a well written faction

[@wiwysova]

Ew

[@wiwysova]

@@highground5433 HAHAHAHAHAHAHA OKAY

[@highground5433]

@@wiwysova tee hee

[@GrandSupremeDaddyo]

I think it's worth mentioning that while the main questlines are always canon and the protagonists are always disposed of in some way, there is also the guild questlines to consider. They are typically canon too, though with the caveat that the protagonists weren't necessarily the heroes of those stories. It seems reasonable to assume then, that the Emperor was assassinated as per the Dark Brotherhood questline around the time of the Skyrim civil war. That might have a bigger effect on the Empire than the civil war and might give Bethesda a way to make both outcomes of the civil war fit canon.

[@gptechnologiesmangalore6909]

Loading files.... Loading nostlagia..... Loading chim...... I litteraly laughed

[@azreon25]

I hope that they give us a system where there are multiple endings to the game based on your choices, say you want to play a Thalmor agent trying to help Unmake the world and give that as an option, or some others, like what they had in Daggerfall.

[@bobakett5613]

I dont know how you do it. But week after week you just keep creating this amazing content. If I were a writer in the Elder Scrolls team, I would immortalize you in some way in the next game.

[@Trephining]

Maybe the PC in TESVI can stumble upon a library somewhere with some hidden archive room with a series of tomes by some near-mythic sect known as the M'uj Fuh'pet. Some of the tomes have to be recovered, translated, destroyed, learned, traded away and stolen back, etc.

[@kingslayers7]

It would be interesting that when the towers start to be deactivated the walls between Oblivion and mundus start to become weaker allowing Daedra to start opening portals into mundus. Maybe not on the scale of the Oblivion crisis or Molag's invasion but still opening up the door for them to invade parts of tamriel.

[@KiraSieni]

Possibly worse since they are now free of sotha sils agreement.

[@BigWaterDrinker]

Dude Michael looks exactly like that guy from Silicon Valley.

[@thomasrosendahl2783]

Drew looks like Thomas middleditch

[@memeshrine7327]

Fudgemuppet is a beautiful channel you have truly been blessed by dibella.

[@mysteryman4013]

Hell ya! Another podcast. Gonna continue my Skyrim switch journey while listening to my fav Es Lore guys 😎

[@brianroberts783]

Very excited to see you guys are talking about the Towers! Also, I'm starting to see some similarities between the Thalmor and the Dai Li in Ba Sing Sae from A:TLA. An organization that officially are the keepers of cultural heritage, but gradually take over through the use of propaganda.

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

That's literally fascism.

[@nicholasbrown668]

​@@NieroshaiTheSable no its not lmao

[@cthonicaidoneus]

In terms of sword singing (which in my opinion is badass) they could as many already want reintroduce "factions" like they had in oblivion and instead of forcing you to be the " last sword singer" or anything like that it could be a sort of faction where you learn to summon your spirit blade and eventually reestablish the sword singers across hammerfell

[@BryceGirdner]

Lovely Sunday morning uploads! Thanks guys, keep it up!

[@napdragon94]

I remember some about the citizens talking about a group of high elf wizards in oblivion causing trouble in the summerset isles which in hindsight seems like foreshadowing 🧐

[@jclarkev]

Love this yall should do more Thalmor and High Elf videos

[@__Insanity_]

I'm pretty Scott wasn't born, he was made in the Oblivion Character Creation screen

[@tamiasrodentia21]

The Towers are greatly overstated in their importance to the Thalmor. They are not mentioned in the Altmeri Commentary on Talos. It’s important to keep in mind the Thalmor-Tower theory is speculative at best and not confirmed anywhere in lore.

[@kennis265]

I wish I hopped on this when y’all first started doing it!! I have barely listened to anything else since I listened to my first episode of the show, which I think was one of the ones with camel works!

[@Mary_Beth_Reimer]

Having recently been playing Oblivion, one of the random comments you can hear from NPCs is something like "I hear Daedra worship is becoming more prevalent in the Somerset Isles." So maybe there is a relevant connection there

[@ElectricOstrich]

Wow 7th podcast already, keep them coming guys

[@thomasherron915]

Hey I would love a podcast about the dawn era! Please also keep making this amazing content

[@pinkpirate5]

I really think the whole removing Talos is tied to his being a Shezarrine... they're trying to remove Lorkan from Mundus. Carrying on the same fight between Auriel and Lorkan from the Dawn Era. But Auriel couldn't destroy Lorkan's heart... and it still floors me that even with the tools of Kagrenac that the Nevarrine could destroy that. In my personal headcannon... when the heart vanished wasn't so much destroying it... as it was returning it to the void... and it's possible that like a Daedra Lord... Lorkan might be reborn if his bits return to whence it came. He is the first born of Sithis.

[@thaddeushill7080]

Hmmmmm what do you think the soul cairn is for

[@thaddeushill7080]

And who is connected to it :3

[@thaddeushill7080]

Hail to the Void...remember that brother..

[@thaddeushill7080]

Send lastly....Sithis came from LorKhan

[@slurmsmckenzie1390]

you know that feeling when you keep putting headphones on and break eye contact with someone to listen to a podcast or something, but the person just doesn't get it and keeps trying to talk to you about shit you don't care about? thats me right now lol. even if i have to watch this 10 time i'll get it all eventually lol. keep up the great work guys. im sure that this is a great episode, even if i can't quite pay attention to it fully lol.

[@andyspincat2968]

I believe the civil war will end with Skyrim and the Empire still being allies to fight the Thalmor. Whether the Imperials or Stormcloaks win, Skyrim is given sovereignty in exchange for their help against the Dominion.

[@NateHolms]

The gods have shared their knowledge with us once again

[@HostileBurger]

Aetherius = Aldmeris It makes sense Aedra if taken literally means ancestor If true The elves are descended from the gods When they lost their divine spark, they become the mer A far less detailed account of events of course. Sure the FM guys could word and explain it so much better Also I'm like 2 minutes in Why haven't I got any patience lol

[@thomastakesatollforthedark2231]

I mean, if you want to conflate myth and history I guess that makes sense

[@fort809]

Watch their video on the dawn era, you comment’s literally the lore of the games. The elves are descended from the et’ada who were trapped on Mundus and slowly lost their divinity, that’s why the worship their ancestors as gods

[@HostileBurger]

@@fort809 yeah

[@HostileBurger]

@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 yeah. There is no Absolute truth ina universe where ones ego can retroactively change the reality they experience. Even the elder scrolls dont contain a set future, but all futures and outcomes. I don't remember entirely but I think that up until the event transpires, the elder scroll isnt set in stone per se That or are always showing the multiversal aspect of the universe Idk

[@mmoney9362]

We need to see round 2 between the thalmor and the empire (w/dragonborn). Maybe show the empire taking the fight to the aldmeri dominion.

[@MrTiberus1701]

The moons disappearing could have been a powerful invisibility spell cast to just hide the moons kinda like the Psijics monks do with their island.

[@JoshSweetvale]

Parallel it to the Oblivion crisis and the eclipse in A Connetticut Yankee.

[@norrinradd6746]

At around 17:00, where Scott says he doesn't think the thalmor could be behind the disappearance of the moons because "they aren't that powerful", I had to kind of chuckle at my memory of pretty much every thalmor interaction in the game. They try to harness the eye of magnus when we find that. They are trying to harness the time-manipulation powers of the dragon priest masks. They are literally trying to control a god by controlling human belief and worship. Pretty much every time we come across any sort of magical item of even marginally world shattering power, there are thalmor sniffing around. They might not always be particularly successful in every one of these endeavors (often because of the meddling of the Dragonborn), but they clearly are successful enough of the time to be winning. Also, if these guys are correct in their assessment of what the thalmor's ultimate goal is, then it is *much* more ambitious than the temporary disappearance of the moons, and they are pretty close to actually achieving it. Hell, I could blot out the sun by level 25. Is there *no one* in the thalmor powerful enough to do the equivalent of completing Dawnguard? It's not like there has to be a wizard who can make the moons vanish whenever he wants. They just had to get a hold of the right artifact/spell/mcguffin of awesome powerness that allowed them to do it once. The thalmor clearly, even with the tiny snapshot of them we are given in Skyrim, have their fingers in a lot of pots that involve powers that would equal or dwarf those required to move the moons. I have trouble believing that if there were some artifact or individual capable of moving the moons, the thalmor wouldn't be *all over* trying to harness that. That the thalmor couldn't move the moons because they aren't powerful enough sounds almost laughable when you consider the scope of the group's ambitions and the lengths they appear willing to go to achieve them.

[@norrinradd6746]

@Jobogriff So they aren't powerful enough to hide the moons but they are powerful enough to have a chance at undoing all of creation? As I point out above, you can hide the sun whenever you want by the end of the Dawnguard questline by using Auriel's Bow. You don't have to be a god. You just have to go dig a bow out of a mountain valley. Do you think it's really beyond belief that an artifact exists in tamriel that could do the same to the moons? Or that the thalmor would be interested in it if it did?

[@Trephining]

Sure you can blot out the sun by level 25, but can the Thalmor Quick-save?

[@michaelpettersson4919]

The Thalmor need to be dealt with in Elderscrolls next installment.

[@PelinalDidNothingWrong]

We need an NPC in TES: 6 that's like The Elder Scrolls equivilent of an Alex Jones style conspiracy theorist. Imagine find them holding up in a cave somewhere with notes rambling on about the Thalmor,The Daedra and The Towers. "They've got magic that makes the mudcrabs milk drinkers!"

[@AL-nv4gk]

Some kind of pioneer or explorer persay?

[@EwingNYK33]

In ESO, at The College of Aldmeri Propriety in Auridon, is a school to teach Bosmer, Khajiit and “lower-class” Altmer the proper way to behave. As any race other than Altmer, If you listen to the instruction provided to the “lower class” members of the Dominion, they are told the sooner they realize the inferiority of their species the better off they will be. However, If you play as an Altmer, they say relatively the same thing but with a more positive spin. The Thalmor have ALWAYS been a bigoted faction, even though the Dominion was not.

[@datmanking4080]

The main reason I want a stormcloak victory is because if the empire wins, nothing really changed. I think season unending or stormcloaks victory brings the most change and potential plots in later games

[@mudcrabmenace8534]

With all the talk about the towers and TES VI, a 2020 TES VI podcast special would be great!

[@josephpinkston9832]

This has nothing to do with thalmor but does anyone else notice how awesome Michael's beard has gotten? He's right up there with drew's beard game now

[@Uliano101]

I always thought that the Thalmor where extremely interesting, I'm glad that they have their own episode in the podcast

[@billygrider24]

I believe it was vivec that said there is a 9th tower if you view the wheel from the side, so even if the 8th tower falls elder scrolls 7 could revolve around a search for this 9the tower

[@tylerharris9847]

Been waiting for this great work guys!

[@dergeilteufel]

I love all of your lore videos. You are a huge contributor to my understanding of Mundus! The story of the Thalmor seems like a combination of the Nazi party, and the Inquisition. Once, perhaps, being charged with keeping the histories, basically the faith of the Altmer, as close to their ideal truth as possible. The Second Aldmeri Dominion likely saw them stepping in to govern the lands of the First, much like the Church did after Rome fell. Finally, their loss at the hands of people their faith tells them are inferior allows extremists to gain influence, just like what happened in Germany after the Great War. The Thalmor, in this case, are like the Thule. Even the names are similar. I believe there are probably still noble families in Summerset. The Thalmor, after all, would keep Altmer society running the way the people are used to, for multiple reasons. As for their power structure, I like the idea of the Thalmor having many heads. However, it's also possible they have something like a Pope, or a cult leader who maintains their doctrine, but is more easily replaced than the human Emperor. I think it is possible that the Adamantine tower will be the only one the Thalmor don't destroy, as they may recognize that it is the anchor for Altmer reality. However, if they do destroy all towers, it will not have the effect that they may hope. Rather than being returned to Aetherius, I think they'll be cast adrift in the chaos of Oblivion, as it was after the Sundering.

[@Dobbinator817]

I've alway had the idea that aylieds fled to the summerset idles after the allesian rebellion and infiltrated high elven society, corrupting it from within with their ideas that humans are made to be servants of elves

[@Werrf1]

Crazy thought - Elder Scrolls VI should be set at the same time as Elder Scrolls V. Rather than having a big time jump, VI should tell the story of what was going on in High Rock/Hammerfell during the events of Skyrim. That way they needn't answer questions about who won the civil war or what happened to the Dragonborn, because that's all going on parallel to the new game. Then they can follow a model similar to ESOs, where they tell the story of other parts of Tamriel through DLCs and new episodes.

[@brianjohnson5272]

Love the loading screen (loading Chim!)

[@finlay9616]

I think the biggest thing in relation to the Thalmor and the Khajiit with the moons, is they take a very Dennis from Always Sunny approach. They might've made the moons go away, and they might've made them come back, but neither of those is important. It's the implication, the implication you see, that they could, that makes the Khajiit terrified enough to support them no matter what.

[@austinmckeen9910]

Last time I was this late the Thalmors took over.

[@krabbychan8295]

Can y’all go over the Reality Bending unique magics like The Thu’um,Sword-Swinging,and others,in the next podcast.

[@derpmcgerp5968]

If only Titus Mede proposed to ban worship of elven gods, acquisition of elsewyr, and disbanding of the thalmor before signing the white-gold concordat

[@sauceboss9610]

Another great video guys. You all are really killing it lately it seems like just when I think that I've learned all i can about elder scrolls lore you all keep finding more and more stuff that completely changes everything. A bit annoying if I'm being honest. but i do have some questions- 1). If the elves deactivate the Adamantine tower isn't that like performing sacrilege in a holy place? 2). Why do we need Talos as the ninth divine when Shor/Shezarr/Lorkhan is the ninth divine because we know that Talos didn't mantle Shor because we still call him talos so there is that distinction between the two unlike the hero of cyrodil who was called Shaogorath after he mantle him 3). Can you all make a video on who the best of everything is in the elder scrolls lore, like who is the best alchemist, who is the best archer, and smith, or thief is because I really want to know who my competition is This is just a theory but what if the towers act like protectors for when the next kalpa comes, like who ever hold control over the towers survive the end of the kalpa like we know that the Redguards had their tower and they survived the last kalpa and the elves had the Adamantine tower so they could have survived they last kalpa and we know that men had the snow tower so they could have survived it to because we know that men and elves have been at war since the beginning of Mundas and we know that this isn't the first kalpa so could the towers be kind of like protectors for whoever claims them for when the next kalpa comes? it could be way the elves want to deactivate all other towers because they want to outlast the other races. And yes I do know how crazy this sounds.

[@ashleyhorton8406]

Yeeess!! Thank you guys ❤️

[@jesterssketchbook]

oh nice, ive been binging your videos all day

[@glowingorb645]

Spread your wings, auroran golden eagle !!!!! ⭐🦅⭐🧝 It's a shame there's not a Thalmor supporter branch for the main quest and also for the mage guild in Skyrim.