Fujitsu boss grilled as he refuses to answer simple question on Horizon systems' CURRENT reliability

Private Eye have said over again that Fugitsu produced a system for the NHS which did not work and then the Work and Pensions which also did not work.

[@martinfounds9626]

And the police yet recently Sunak gave Fujitsu yet another huge Government contract.!

[@jamesbowskill362]

@@martinfounds9626 Yes, brown envelopes flourish in THEIR circles

[@tonychorley4936]

Makes me wonder why on earth the government keeps allocating contracts to such a company.

[@bostonbikebits6539]

Every major government IT contract has a consultancy behind it. Every single one of those has failed badly at some time yet every single one of them gets to do further projects. Contracts are won on the golf course.

[@donaldeaston9564]

@@tonychorley4936I watched the film BlackBerry. I worked in the NHS in Lothian Health Board. All the managers got Blackberries given to them. Hey, they went bust.

[@JerryBoardman]

In comparison to the dubious evidence (or lies and evasions) given by the Post Office senior management I think Patterson's replies were remarkably direct and succinct.

[@ykkrasaoz9748]

Until it wasn't. Its a strategic thing, he's been trained much better in giving direct answers on things Fujitsu now concedes, but when it comes to the points Fujitsu still wants to defend, prevarication.

[@apb3251]

@@ykkrasaoz9748no what he states is accurate. It’s like if you order something from Amazon and it’s damaged, it wasn’t the Amazon website that damaged it, but happened in manufacturing, transportation, storage or delivery. So Amazon is the post office in this example and Fujitsu is the website

[@PeterMenzies-t4r]

In the UK we keep having issues with software systems whether it be in Defence, Healthcare, Transport, Education, Police etc etc. Does it look like the people we appoint to determine the requirements for the systems simply do not know or understand what they need and want from the systems they commission. This has changed too fast to fast for most folks in the upper management and the last years of their tenure to understand, however they should be able to take advice from colleagues who understand the implications and can advise.

[@steveevans4299]

@@PeterMenzies-t4r This Post Office 'scandal' has not been created by any software defects - if there were systemic defects it would affect all outlets and would be easily found in testing. The Fujitsu software has been in place for decades and has proved very stable over that time. This is surely much more about poorly thought through System Requirements, and terrible business and support processes in place between Post office and their Post Masters, which were overly complex in some areas and overly simple in others. It now just feels like a blame game and money grab by the core participants.

[@davidwales2082]

He answered straightforwardly that there are bugs in the system. He also was straightforward in saying that the software was produced to the Post Office's requirements. The question about reliability was, essentially, a question on whether the Post Office were able to use the system to achieve their aims. This should be answered by the Post Office's Product Owner or whoever on PO's side had the responsibility to take delivery of the system and verify that it performed as required.

[@ChrisB802]

one of the most perceptive comments on this thread. Horizon as a project will have encompassed much more than just the software delivered by Fujitsu. The culpability is with Post office management, right back to the procurement stage.

[@steveevans4299]

@@ChrisB802 Yes - This Post Office 'scandal' has not been created by any software defects - if there were systemic defects it would affect all outlets and would be easily found in testing. The Fujitsu software has been in place for decades and has proved very stable over that time. This is surely much more about poorly thought through System Requirements, and terrible business and support processes in place between Post office and their Post Masters, which were overly complex in some areas and overly simple in others. It now just feels like a blame game and money grab by the core participants.

[@Youtube_deleted_my_favourites]

Imagine, at your place of work, some money goes missing. You get blamed. If you deny it you are threatened with court resulting in prison. Or if you admit it you just get a suspended sentence or community punishment. So to avoid prison you admit guilt. Over and done with you think. Then your company sues you for court costs because you were found guilty, you owe £350,000 in court costs. Your life ruined. This company is called the Post Office. Their logo is " whatever you need us for, we're here for you". They spent £100 million in expensive lawyers to try to avoid paying £58 million in compensation. The class action saw the incorrectly convicted see £20,000 in compensation after court costs. The executive salaries were between £250,000 and £500,000. Post Office investigators were given bonuses for every Horizon conviction

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Yeah while these bigwigs are getting paid well. The image of this counted more than the people who were hounded for something they didn't do.

[@ataxpayer723]

"Bugs Errors and Defects" This is a great name for a software consulting firm.

[@paulp1802]

When I watched him give evidence months ago, I thought he was answering honestly, one of the few.

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Really?

[@paulp1802]

@ yes I did. Don’t comment unless you have watched him give evidence throughout.

[@Dbdbe1]

@@paulp1802He was clear on some things; not others. And yes I watched it

[@Marktewk]

I agree. In his position today I would say the same thing. There are bugs and errors in the Horizon system - some known, some potentially unknown, some caused by external systems that the Horizon system interacts with (including human processes). These bugs and errors in Horizon are not going to be fixed because there is no point (for the Post Office) investing in an end-of-life system that is being replaced (one day). Does that mean that Horizon is unreliable? Yes but the Post Office are aware of the situation and they need to take these issues into account when reporting on the state of the business. Will new bugs and errors emerge? Yes, with every change to the business there are potential issues that could arise because the system is not being updated to take account of new data.

[@redjacc7581]

i worked for fujitsu for 20 years and am mortified but not surprised.

[@RonnieWeir-u5g]

How much longer is this going to go on? Isn’t it about time that some kind of prosecution is made?

[@SymonCooke]

Can you imagine if this had been American courts, the compensation would be in the 10’s of millions per sub post master and yet they still drag their feet. It seems crazy you can’t sit in a room and resolve each one within an hour and then here’s a cheque, next?

[@ak99uk]

Please don't compare our country to the lunatic asylum over there.

[@ismith9959]

ITS ABOUT TIME THAT ALL THOSE WHO WERE IN A POSITION OF RESPONSIBILITY IN THE POST OFFICE, AND KNEW, WERE AWARE, LIED, HID THE TRUTH, AND A LOT MORE. THEY SHOULD ALL GO TO PRISON AND LOOSE THIER PENSIONS

[@jamesbowskill362]

All those at the top (board members) have ALL taken out insurance policies for over £10MILLION EACH, to cover ANY claims......as disclosed earlier in the hearings. Of course THEY should ALL go to prison, to include that DUD e davey.......... As this issue stands, the government will need a NEW PRISON TO HOLD ALL THESE LIARS, in all, hundreds of them

[@kathykay9920]

Agreed

[@jimmcgarvie1483]

He wasn’t refusing to answer the question. He said he couldn’t answer the question. In other words a valid question but it was being directed at the wrong person.

[@stephendowling4463]

the Mirror is trying to tell us he is a bad person whereas the lawyer is a good person

[@stephensharp2716]

Get your head out of your bottom

[@NeuroDeviant421]

Did he offer the name of the “right person”? That seems to be a theme through out this “inquiry”. No one is “the right person”, it just happened. In fact, it seems as though all of these “official inquiries” never find fault with a person in authority.

[@jimmcgarvie1483]

@@NeuroDeviant421 in this situation there isn’t a specific person. The question of does the system provide accurate and sufficient information for tax should have been directed to an accountant. We know the information contained bugs and errors but when you submit account to you are asked to make a statement of accuracy which has the caveats ‘does this submission contain provisional information?’ To which the postmaster would answer ‘no’ because they would believe the information was up to date at the time. It then asks that ‘to the best of your knowledge ….’ Is this accurate? It’s not for Fujitsu to answer a question that is directed at and to the person submitting the accounts. I think this is a situation where to postmaster would have originally answered positively but now would be able to. What they should have done is put a chartered accountant and tax expert from hmrc in the witness box. Anyone who knows the process would be able to answer. I love the work the enquiry lawyers are doing but this was a valid question at the wrong person and unlike others who were deliberately being evasive he was right not to answer. The issue is that if sales/income inflated then so would tax liabilities. People might have paid too much but you don’t want them facing false declarations if they were acting to the ‘best of their knowledge’.

[@michaelmcginley7930]

Seem an honest guy with tons more integrety than po lawyers

[@stephenhoneyman9743]

And to think Justin Welby wanted Paula Venelles as Bishop of London…… I bet he’s glad she wasn’t appointed.

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Doubt it. They seem to be cut from the same cloth. Hiding things and ignoring the damage done. Wronguns the whole rotten lot. Still dragging there feet to pay. Everyone claiming ignorance.

[@martinfounds9626]

Fujitsu system was never bespoke. It was an off the shelf system adapted for different client uses and presented as bespoke. The clients, generally government organisations were clueless as to their ultimate requirements. Shoddy product and operation with the real problems being blamed on the end users. Those Independent sub post masters were thrown to the sharks. Similar scenario in other Fujitsu failed systems sold to gullible and clueless civil servants. All at the tax payers eventual cost. Many decent peoples lives ruined through no fault of their own.

[@gowdsake7103]

As most of these systems are ! Maintenance systems, call monitoring systems etc etc

[@ataxpayer723]

Why even consider Fujitsu as a software provider. Dont they make fridges and air conditioners?

[@martinfounds9626]

@ and do they even work.?

[@steveevans4299]

The current Fujitsu Software is completely bespoke, and different to the software under scrutiny at this enquiry. The software under scrutiny was a layer of adaptation over a system by US Company Escher, which offered (and still does) off-the-shelf Postal Services Software. But actually the Fujitsu Post Office software (in all it's versions) has been in place for decades and has proved very stable over that time, and allowed billions of transactions to be performed correctly. This is surely much more about poorly thought through System Requirements, and terrible business and support processes in place between Post office and their Post Masters, which were overly complex in some areas and overly simple in others. It now just feels like a blame game and money grab by the core participants.

[@ataxpayer723]

I once worked at a large UNI. They introduced a new version of Peoplesoft ( and outdated ERP system designed to run General Motors . They had to pay 6 years of overdue system update fees, then pay for the update. We all then had to do V7 training, to figure out how to use the clunky system. None of the screens or layouts in any of the modules looked the same. In some screens the PRINT button was off to the side of the screen, where it could not be seen!. After a week of training no one could use the new modules and we were all blamed for not following the instructions.. It seems that the supplier had sent us a set of outdated training manuals with outdated screen shots. Also some features from the old system had ben disables. ie you could not raise a PO or an Invoice and save it as a template for future use!. What a multi-million dollar shambles.

[@steveevans4299]

this is not the same. This Post Office 'scandal' has not been created by any software defects - if there were systemic defects it would affect all outlets and would be easily found in testing. The Fujitsu software has been in place for decades and has proved very stable over that time. This is surely much more about poorly thought through System Requirements, and terrible business and support processes in place between Post office and their Post Masters, which were overly complex in some areas and overly simple in others. It now just feels like a blame game and money grab by the core participants.

[@Marktewk]

@@steveevans4299 Would you like to share a drum, so we can bang it together?

[@billtomlin4424]

He didn’t refuse to answer anything. He gave very good answers to pretty ignorant questions.

[@onlybugwit]

That's exactly what I thought

[@sunnysidechrome956]

I agree. IT systems always have "bugs, errors and defects". Expecting this not to be the case is childish. Not having procedures in place to deal with this inevitability is really the issue.

[@johnhumberstone9674]

Clickbait

[@kathykay9920]

Humbug

[@Marktewk]

@@sunnysidechrome956 100%. If you see a problem first look at the computer system not the person operating the system. Assume that your own staff are honest until you can categorically rule out a system problem. The issue was that parts of the Post Office already regarded some of its staff as untrustworthy and the Horizon system appeared to confirm this. But no one bothered to consider that Horizon and all the complex infrastructure surrounding it could generate the problem.

[@philipfreedman615]

My iPhone gets a software update very frequently stated to be needed to fix bugs. No software is ever sold as bug free.

[@Simon-jj2pu]

Back in the day there was a job description called Systems Accountants, who were qualified accountants FCA or ACCA and could also programme systems. Their job was to ensure the design of the computer systems managed the financial integrity of the ledgers, ie the day books balanced to the general ledger. ICL had loads of those, oops ICL became Fujitsu

[@robsengahay5614]

As a society we have taken a long time to appreciate that computer software systems are constantly evolving and, unless they are tasked to undertake a simple process, are bound to contain flaws. As someone who worked in office environments in the 80s, 90s and beyond we were conditioned with the expression RORO (rubbish in, rubbish out) which essentially meant that if our computer gave the wrong answer it was user error. It was this attitude that started the issue with the Post Office and Horizon. However once it became obvious that user malfeasance was unlikely the real scandal was that the Post Office ignored that and doubled and tripled down.

[@ataxpayer723]

"Unreliable, innaccurate and incomplete" That sums up the entire Horizon system, When does the UK taxpayer get a refund?

[@Marktewk]

Every system has bugs, errors and defects. The key is how these are managed. In this case the fact that people were prosecuted based on data from a computer system is where the issues arose. The Post Office needed people (customers, government, staff) to believe that Horizon was accurate and complete to provide a platform for developing the business. When this complex system was shown to be not fit for purpose, the Post Office decided to try to hide this and blame its own staff.

[@fredbarman2538]

Disappointingly poor line of questioning by Mr Blake this time.

[@simonbowen1]

A totally misleading headline. It seemed to me that this witness was doing his damnedest to be open, honest and straightforwaed. And I'm a lawyer. Shame on you.

[@stevegarth6902]

I'm glad your not defending me

[@jhindle7883]

The overall impression I get from these witnesses is that they are all as slimy as f... All of them answering questions in a weasel-like way, or not even answering at all. Meanwhile all those victims, who quite clearly were innocent postmasters just doing their job, are all still waiting for justice to be done. Do they believe that the longer this goes on it might just go away or at least reduce in consequence as the older victims die off - many of which have already done so. They have waited long enough, pay them enough to get their lives back together and argue about who was responsible afterwards and adjust the compensation accordingly. My own observations, as this saga continues is that I have not heard a single witness who does not bear some responsibility for this miscarriage of justice. It should be jail time for the lot of them and the sentence should not be less than the number of years that these poor innocents have had to endure at their hands.

[@zeusgb]

It's outrageous how the system could still have bugs and issues 25 years later.

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

No complex system is completely free from bugs and defects, whether a computer system or a train timetable or the human body that has millions of years of evolution. One of the common causes of bugs is as a consequence of fixing an existing bug. A bug can be undiscovered for decades and suddenly be triggered by a change in environment. Many bugs are not bugs but changes in expectations that the software or hardware was never designed for. When someone fully debuts the human body, then you will have a valid point.

[@ytdertignulses201]

@@johnpublicprofile6261 Sorry, but that is a ridiculous analogy. Clearly the system was not designed or tested adequately.

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

@ytdertignulses201 whether or not THIS system was designed and tested sufficiently, is not my point. I am saying that it is emminently possible that even a system that was sufficiently designed, tested, maintained & supported could have bugs and issues after 25 years. The fact that Horizon still encounters "bugs" is not necessarily evidence of "outrageous" negligence, though negligence may well be the cause in this case.

[@pdrg]

I can see why you may think that, on it's face it's obvious in many ways, however systems are never in isolation. Every interface is at risk of change and that change causing spurious ripple-down effects. When a system is 25 years old, interfaces with other tools themselves will change, etc. I am making no defence of Horizon, just saying that software is complex, extremely complex, and as interconnected systems age it becomes harder, not easier, to maintain the integrity.

[@Ian-mj4pt]

​@johnpublicprofile6261 so what is it then ? Loads of people got screwed and just to continue to hound them. They were happy to get the huge pay packet and hide the truth. Rather lie and continue so the company image is not damaged. Whether it ruined people's lives. Still lying and doing the Not Me Guv

[@carljacobs1260]

Unless the SW is trivial, there is no such thing as SW without "bugs, errors and defects". It is physically impossible to eliminate all of them. It is physically impossible to prove the condition.

[@radman8321]

He makes some fair points. He accepts the system has bugs, like all IT systems. But he's pointing out the old computing adage, garbage in garbage out. He'd have been better saying that a Toyota is a reliable car, but that doesn't mean they never go wrong. There is no such thing as a perfect IT system. The issue is around the processes and procedures of the post office whose responsibility is to check the data, investigate discrepancies and to be damned sure sub-postmasters are stealing before even considering prosecuting them.

[@gliddofglood]

That’s a bit of a cop out. If Excel gave you wrong answers to calculations where would we be? If you buy a system to process data and it may or may not give you the right answer, what use is that? You might honestly tell your client “It’s right 99% of the time but be aware that it isn’t reliable 100% of the time. Don’t use it to prove guilt or innocence.” Not only were Fujitsu never going to say that, POL didn’t want to know either. Their procurement people wouldn’t look good buying an unreliable system.

[@radman8321]

@@gliddofglood Excel has previously had bugs that did indeed give you wrong answers. Intel has had CPUs that had errors in the maths functions. Research has shown that anything but the most basic spreadsheet is very likely to contain errors. Having worked in I.T. for four decades I can tell you that there is no I.T. system on the planet that is bug free. You have to build processes around them to spot when errors occur. I used to have to sign a document stating to a court that the I.T. system I was responsible for was operating "correctly" at all times before they would issue judgements against people. If the document had asked me to confirm there were no bugs in the system I would have refused to sign it. Most bugs get squashed early in the development/testing phases of the project, more get fixed as the system comes into use and processes catch problems, but some are so unusual that they may never happen or only happen one in a million times. These are called edge cases and with the best will in the world they will not all be caught. So it isn't a cop-out, it's the real world of things built by humans and not gods.

[@gliddofglood]

@@radman8321 We can agree that all IT programmes have bugs. What was apparent in this case was that Horizon was riddled with them and was totally untrustworthy. Fujitsu knew that and the head guy in Europe knew that. He also knew that people were being sent to jail on the "evidence" of his company'y product. But he chose not to flag this up. He (like all the other people in this case) was happy to see people sent to prison and have their lives ruined if it made his professional existence more comfortable. His testimony is weasel testimony. He sounds eminently reasonable, but he won't admit what he knew or why he didn't do anything about it.

[@radman8321]

@@gliddofglood That may all be true but it doesn't change the fact that it was the responsibility of the Post Office to ensure that the evidence was correct. As far as I can tell Fujitsu didn't hide the faults from the Post Office. It isn't Fujitsu's job to "blow the whistle" about how the Post Office used their I.T. system. This is especially true as Horizon was a bespoke system for the Post Office. Fujitsu never sold it to anybody else. In such a scenario the Post Office would have been intimately involved in the design and specifically the testing of the product. There is enough blame to go around, but I'd assign 95% of it to the Post Office.

[@gliddofglood]

@@radman8321 It was clearly the Post Office that chose to hound and prosecute the sub postmasters long after they knew that the evidence they were using was totally untrustworthy. So it’s fair that they carry most of the responsibility. But as we have seen in this enquiry, Fujitsu had access to the system but led the PO to believe they didn’t. They were aware of bugs they didn’t flag up. They falsified the record of the visit of union rep who discovered the truth of the unauthorised access. The system they custom designed was not robust enough to send people to jail. They knew that and yet they did nothing about it. They are complicit in this fiasco. We can argue about the % of blame they should shoulder. I don’t have an opinion on the matter. In this particular interview I see a guy covering for his company (as everyone single witness in this enquiry has). “Not me guv, not us. I couldn’t possibly say.” It’s just that this guy is more intelligent and better at it than most - not overly surprising as he’s a more senior manager. Your comments would reasonably imply that from your experience you wouldn’t expect Horizon to be bug-free. Fair enough. Then it was Fujitsu’s job to manage that expectation with their client. I have seen no evidence that they ever did and on the contrary, stood idly by as sub postmasters were prosecuted on the basis of the infallibility of their system.

[@basilpunton5702]

Questions which are outside the competency of a person cannot be answered. His answers were often correctly answered to highlight his knowledge base, and therefore not a question that he could or should answer. He appeared to be trying to give good faith answers. The title for this video is evidence of bad faith on the part of creator of the title.

[@hpoonis2010]

One would expect, after 25 years and more of widespread use, that they would have produced a completely workable and reliable system.

[@steveevans4299]

Actually the Fujitsu Post Office software (in all it's versions) has been in place for decades and has proved very stable over that time, and allowed billions of transactions to be performed correctly. This is surely much more about poorly thought through System Requirements, and terrible business and support processes in place between Post office and their Post Masters, which were overly complex in some areas and overly simple in others.

[@Marktewk]

I wouldn't. There is no such thing as a completely workable and reliable system.

[@grantbanstead1971]

This guy knows there were problems, and knows there are problems, and is factually correct in that he cannot state that it is or is not reliable without knowing how reliable it needs to be. There are bugs in Microsoft Outlook but we all need to use it, and they will get addressed over time, and new bugs will creep in and old bug will be removed and some would say its reliable and others will say its junk but it still works for most people. No clear answer.

[@jeffstclair9221]

I have watched some of this fiasco. And it seems that so many of these people in top positions at the post office and in Fugitsu were not very good at their jobs..

[@SymonCooke]

Wow it’s not only me thinking that. I have to be better at my job than any of these or I would be fired yet they earn millions

[@Ian-mj4pt]

They act like they are gormless. The Not Me Guv

[@gliddofglood]

I think you’ll find that repeated everywhere. Look at every major project - massive budget overruns and delays. HS2 is a case in point. Arse covering, paper shuffling, buck passing and email generation is the name of the game. If novels were written in this way you’d need 100 people, constant progress reports, stakeholder meetings and they’d take a decade to write and be awful.

[@petercassidy0628]

The whole lot of them should be in prison they all lied .

[@adampark1050]

@petercassidy0628 spot on 💯 20 + post masters mostly older people never been in trouble in their lives ,hardworking citizens all start stealing money 😂 and they knew the system was faulty but they covered it up or tried too the rabbit hole will run deep

[@thelyrebird1310]

As a system analyst they provided a really crap product but to be fair, what hes being asked just is not his area of expertise or should be expected to answer. He's not an accountant he provides bespoke integrated business software package. What the post office does with the dataset is not his business. The fact is he can't guarantee anyone not putting in erroneous information or bugs because he's not directly involved.

[@stephenpowers51]

Mr Patterson was admirably candid. If he declined to answer questions, it was because they were simplistic, not simple.

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Oh yeah is he going to get a bonus ? You work for fujitsu ?

[@stephenpowers51]

@@Ian-mj4pt Maybe he will. No, I don't. Given he wasn't around when all this went on, I can't see what your beef is with the man. Oh, I see. You're a pitchfork guy, like to be part of the angry mob, wave a flaming torch, show folk how 'brave' you are. That's sweet.

[@gliddofglood]

He obfuscated plausibly. Clever bloke.

[@Marktewk]

@@stephenpowers51 I believe the technical term is willy-waggling.

[@monkeyboy8424]

Never underestimate the extent of lies, subterfuge and dark methods to cover-up their serious wrongdoing.

[@beammeup8458]

If he were threatened with prison, he would be singing like a canary. What are they waiting for ? The end of the world ?

[@grahampritchard5284]

All company directors are aware they can go to prison! First the evidence has to be solid, that he personally caused this scandal, he didn't, PO bosses did!

[@Ian-mj4pt]

All seem to be dim

[@Ken-er9cq]

One thing that becomes obvious when programming is that if I system is badly designed then trying to fix it is almost impossible. You end up developing the system again.

[@MrButtonpresser]

In other words: “Does your system work sufficiently well?” Errrr, aaaaah, I couldn’t possibly say…. Weasel words.

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Image means more than the people who suffered

[@Marktewk]

Is your car working sufficiently well? Are you sure?

[@andiharper4498]

There are many comments suggesting this witness is in the same league as the PO, an out and out criminal who should be jailed...I'm not so sure. Fujitsu produced a product (Horizon) to the customers (PO) specification (SLA). It seems logical that Fujitsu had done what was asked of them as the PO were content to accept ownership and paid for the product. Surely the PO are responsible for the products use and how it was used. It was this responsibility, their resulting dishonesty and deception that caused the scandal. My comments do not excuse Fujitsu's complicit actions in supporting the PO and their moral responsibilities.

[@petersaupe7455]

PO freely admit that most of the management in PO did not have any idea what they needed or even what they wanted. A fifteen year old computer wisskid could have told them that Horzion was not fit for the job. I do expect in years to come it will come to light someone somewere has assets they are unable to quantify.

[@supergran1000]

What about the team at Bracknell accessing the system and keeping access a secret? Has Fujitsu ever given an explanation?

[@andiharper4498]

@@supergran1000 With all due respect, my comments referred to the video and the witness. Your response is clearly valid.

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Stop defending them.

[@charlespeters9626]

A wee while ago I was part of a team responsible for FAT (factory acceptance teating) and SAT (site acceptance testing) of a SAP system. During these tests we entered data into SAP in an attempt to "break it" - we developed scenarios to prove that the any code changes were bug free (or at least with minimum bugs). During my viewing of the various KZbin videos I have not heard any mention of FAT or SAT testing. As always the devil is in the detail.

[@thardingau]

This inquiry is not a court, so there are no ‘prosecutors’.

[@Holycurative9610]

If you want an antiquated system I've recently been working in an Asian country, in IT, and they're still booting up with floppys in some parts of the governent systems.

[@mla7071]

Stop lying you have never worked a day in your life

[@TheSkunkyMonk]

Meh some of our own systems in the UK still use COBOL

[@Ichioku]

Doesn't matter how antiquated the system is if it works.

[@Marktewk]

the principle of if it's not broken don't fix it is a safe option; not very exciting but who wants excitement?

[@ak99uk]

I didn't need to be reminded never to buy the Sun.

[@Silvercox]

Yes he repeatedly failed to answer the question! That is because he did not know the answer. Which is not refusing to answer the questions, as someone has stupidity suggested for the title of this piece!! I find this type of reporting quite obnoxious.

[@gliddofglood]

No, he knows the answer but he’s not going to incriminate himself or his company by voicing it. Obvs.

[@alangaughran]

Fujitsu has clearly failed its customer and their staff but the question is simply a figment of the inquisitor's ignorance. Anybody with an ounce of commercial experience would answer as Mr Patterson has done.

[@grantbanstead1971]

I support an app. It is on release 7 and is about 9 years old. Internally we are on version 59 as each revision gets patched again and again. Some features get modified as requirements change. It has been in use the whole time. We think it's reliable. The client is satisfied but they still find quirks to fix in the next version. Mostly things like outdated documentation or column alignment now. Previously printing font issues. Now ask me in court if its reliable...

[@Ian-mj4pt]

What is your point

[@grantbanstead1971]

The point being, how can a non-techie quantify reliability? The question was "is it reliable? and was it considered reliable? It is not evasive to say "I cant say if it was reliable" because it depends on your point of view. The crime of the post office it to say it was infallible when no one could ever truthfully say any software is infallible.

[@davidstone1579]

Fujitsu have a product which doesn't work properly, after many years. Under the sale of goods act, we want our money back! Simple.

[@AllanTheBanjo]

Software isn't classified as 'goods' so the act doesn't apply. When you buy software you are buying a licence to use the software. At least that's my understanding.

[@steveevans4299]

Actually the Fujitsu Post Office software (in various versions) has been in place for decades and has proved very stable over that time, and allowed billions of transactions to be performed correctly. This is surely much more about poorly thought through System Requirements, and terrible business and support processes in place between Post office and their Post Masters, which were overly complex in some areas and overly simple in others. It now just feels like a blame game and money grab by the core participants.

[@Marktewk]

@@steveevans4299 I agree. The requirements were always way too complex for a solution built on sand.

[@ChrisM541]

Remember folks, this whole shambles isn't only Fujitsu's mess - as we know, the PO, government etc knew about these serious bugs - at the time!

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Yeah but all seem to have selective amnesia

[@carolsmall992]

Clickbait title. He came across as giving full, clear and direct answers. In comparison with many other witnesses to this enquiry he is a paragon.

[@artvandelay7236]

The Japanese and the English have kept up the appearance of competence rather well.

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Image means more than the people

[@michaelbruce5415]

Following Kemi Badenoch's testimony last week - she highlighted a really important issue, I am wondering just how much this enquiry is going to cost. It would not surprise me at all if the cost of the enquiry exceeds the eventual payments to SPM's

[@carolsmall992]

Click sit title. He came across as giving full, clear and direct answers. In comparison with many other witnesses to this enquiry he is a paragon.

[@PhotoCanvasUk]

What was the exact date of this witnesses hearing? re-William Paul Patterson and where is the full recording rather than the chosen snippet. Many thanks

[@johnbannister1173]

Corruption to the core.

[@stephenpowers51]

Rubbish.

[@Bristolcentaurus]

@@stephenpowers51 so all the convictions were lawful? all Post Office witness told the whole truth each and every time all the lawyers presented truthful submissions to each and every prosecution?

[@stephenpowers51]

@ I’m not sure what you’re referring to. If it’s Mr Patterson’s most recent appearance, and the evidence he gave, which this video is about, I don’t believe he is corrupt. Almost all of the PO witnesses who were involved prior to 2019, were party, wittingly or otherwise, to a disgrace. I hope very much Mrs Vennells and Mrs Perkins pay a heavy price. Others too. Does that help to clatify my position on these matters?

[@alantheinquirer7658]

Fujitsu will NEVER confess to faults in their present systems - it's bad for sales.

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Image means more than the lives ruined

[@newforestpixie5297]

when the regimental old guy at Sway PO was sacked after years of service then his replacement was sacked or accused plus the guys at Pilley /Boldre PO 5 miles away then got accused & i think sacked , i could’ve told anyone something was fishy. Christ i wasn’t a Detective but even if a racket was being run, someone getting rumbled would surely stop the action or the new folk wouldn’t simply carry on the fiddle ! It’s terrible & unbelievable. I feel so sorry for those workers.

[@RESELLERGEORGE]

Fujitsu should be BANNED from operating anything in public service for at least 20 years. And fined

[@AGTC009]

Can't believe Fujitsu are still using what is quite simply a very antiquated system & allowing it to perform in a very substandard way !

[@BillDavies-ej6ye]

The Post Office specified and is using the system. It is for them to replace it, not Fujitsu. It seems odd, though, after 25 years of use, that the various deficiencies haven't been ironed out, neglecting the effect of erroneous input. Patterson, in my opinion, obfuscates these different issues.

[@tonychorley4936]

Fujitsu doesn’t care, gets contracts anyway, and says Japan will be very cross if they don’t continue to get contracts and thus endless money from UK taxpayers.

[@MatSpeedle]

As someone who has the displeasure of dealing with them regulary, I can believe it. Their single motivation in any dealing I've had, is how they can etract more money from the customer. How they are still in business is unbelievable.

[@ataxpayer723]

@@BillDavies-ej6ye The PO is still probably paying its monthly usage fee for the Horizon system, to Fujitsu

[@BillDavies-ej6ye]

@@ataxpayer723 I have no doubt that you are right. If there are modifications to be made, it will be Fujitsu that does them, not the Post Office.

[@louieuow]

Lock him up until he truthfully and succinctly answers all questions with no spin!

[@adampark1050]

This man knew and turned a blind eye he should be in jail for what happened too those poor folk

[@andiharper4498]

I'm not so sure. Fujitsu produced a product (Horizon) to the customers (PO) specification (SLA). It seems logical that Fujitsu had done what was asked of them as the PO were content to accept ownership and paid for the product. Surely the PO are responsible for the products use and how it was used. It was this responsibility, their resulting dishonesty and deception that caused the scandal. My comments do not excuse Fujitsu's complicit actions in supporting the PO and their moral responsibilities.

[@number9loyaltv]

Not quite the case though is it? He's quite clearly saying there was issues, but it's a much wider problem than just focusing on one area. As he said, they'd need to have post office bosses and Fujitsu engineers all sitting together being asked these questions because no one person would necessarily know the answers.

[@adampark1050]

@number9loyaltv and u believe him 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Like Welby

[@Ian-mj4pt]

​@@andiharper4498what ignore the faults and demonise the people for stealing when it's the system. Are you defending them? You do know people committed suicide because of the accusations and force put on them

[@ataxpayer723]

"A general theme" ie the Horizon System never worked as required, yet we kept sending our monthly fees to the PO for payment.

[@timdriscoll8712]

On this point I believe he is absolutely correct. Horizon is designed on the specification the post office provide. It relies on other third party systems that Fujitsu have no control over and there is always a level of user error.

[@markgreen1579]

I wonder what he would answer when asked does Horizon comply with all contractual functional requirements and financial legal regulations that I would expect the Post Office to state as mandatory. If not, which of these requirements have non compliances raised and been accepted? SLAs mean nothing regarding this hearing. The application has to be proven to function as defined. And not use unapproved methods and introduce any design errors.

[@LADY_JEMIMA_FORTESCUE]

Fujitsu - wasn't me guv! .....that's how it's gonna play

[@solgarling-squire7531]

Considering the millions of pounds at stake and corporate liability, he is doing exactly the right thing for his employer. Capitalism is about profit, not morals or ethics. Excel does not have a column for decency and integrity. He is paid to defend the company, not be the spokesperson for the company.

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Yeah exactly. Bigwigs who know nothing about anything you wonder how they are in the job . So many were acting dim. Yet are in the top jobs. A few made me wonder if they have to be told to breathe 🤔 pathetic the whole rotten lot of them

[@Ian-mj4pt]

​@@solgarling-squire7531so in your mind it's justified?

[@solgarling-squire7531]

@@Ian-mj4pt My comment is about getting real in peoples' interestest and what their role actually was. Comments about me thinking that Fujitsu and the Post Office are exhonourated are as absurd as they are baseless.

[@solgarling-squire7531]

@@Ian-mj4pt You seem unable to understand that defining terms and roles is an objective action. You'd make a crap lawyer. No, what happened was not justified and I have to wonder where you read that I cheer for the wongs done.

[@godwhymenowman]

So He’s basically saying it’s not right that His Company was made to give honest statements when asked by this Court in a orderly fashion as it was too mush stress and hassle, never mind the folk who killed themselfs with the shame They put on Them and jail for those that did not, Wow just Wow, They should pay billions INSTANTLY to cover any and all compensation and all with fkn interest,

[@RichardPonsford-kv2uy]

No prison, no fines, no accountability….what a joke. Nice pension, and swans off into the sunset. Jesus!

[@robertsemple299]

Is the system used by sub postmasters and provided by Fujitsu sufficient to produce reliable accounts included in the Service Level Agreement? Seems a reasonable question to ask.

[@russellatwell784]

How has this been allowed to drag on for so long , no wonder the country is in such a mess the government is spineless and scared to admit a gov department stuffed up. Own up jail the guilty and compensate the many poor souls you have destroyed.

[@azizkhan5332]

To Scottish Sun/any informed viewers here, can you give us the name of the lawyer (I'm assuming, he's a barrister) who has been doing questioning in this video? Cheers.

[@brightspark4817]

all; these top bosses suposedly dont know whats going on

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Selective amnesia

[@johnalbinson4641]

Problem with government is endemic. Its people with no ability of writing a definitive and workable specification then being the job of auditing and managing commercial operators whoes interest in profit over overrides all other considerations. You only have to use software used by the DWP or tax agencies to realise its not adequately checked.

[@paulgilliland2992]

Why has Fujitsu become the sole source vendor selected for building and maintaining critical government infrastructure software solutions . It seems as if they run everything including defenses, healthcare and transportation? Surely the government isn’t letting one organization do all of this.

[@keithroy9217]

Nationalise all Fujitsu assets and let them argue with a judge!

[@sandydobbie1255]

This is a Sergeant Shultz’s answers !!! “I Know Nothing “!!!

[@SimonDover]

Good, it's starting. They're throwing people under the bus. That should speed things along nicely.

[@eyemere2]

These are dubious people who have no scruples when power & money are involved. Truth and decency aren't' in their vocabulary

[@robbie9030]

Fujitsu should be covering the cost of the compensation and if they are not why not. A prime minister with any guts would suspend any further contracts with Fujitsu until such time compensation is paid.

[@gliddofglood]

Fujitsu supplied a defective product and they knew it to be so. They should be sued for the billions the British taxpayer is on the hook for. Sue POL too if it’s private. If it’s public there’s no point.

[@audrasforest]

Fujitsu is famous in Australia, for causing computer problems, not solutions... Sharebroking network know about this lacklustre corporation. Cheers from Australia 👺👺👺👺👺👺👺

[@TheSynthnut]

I personally think the focus on the age of the system is a red herring. Integrating any addtional components to systems creates potential problems. Over confidence was a key issue in Horizon! By contrast, an older system can have had its bugs and defects worked out of it over time and so, can (only can) be ultimately more dependable than a newer one. The problems arrise with the constant updating of components and software in those components and in connections with external systems outside the designers control. Computers are great until you connect them to a network and then start changing stuff...

[@Marktewk]

Computers are great until you use them.

[@paulp1802]

What was the date of this evidence, I saw him months ago?

[@Marktewk]

He's given evidence before.

[@alistairwilson766]

When a screen freezes or as a computer expert would say "Hangs Up" the programme is incomplete which means there are still glitches in the programme, so in other words you're trying to run a programme which is not tried and tested but is flawed, so the Post Office is paying you for a programme which is incomplete, so you are ripping them off.

[@outlaw6421]

What he cant answer a question that his systems works properly,total incompetence..ban them from all uk gov contracts

[@TiffanyLaVoom]

Why aren't they being sued for failure to deliver on their contract, fraud, and a criminal conspiracy to defraud the British people? I'd also like them to repay all the money lost, and compensate the affected sub-postmasters

[@Ian-mj4pt]

This isn't the end.

[@Marktewk]

Probably because they did deliver on their contract. The fault was with the original contract and the subsequent mismanagement of the contract by the Post Office.

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

BARRISTER USING WRONG WORDS I'm not completely defending the chap but... Asking someone with an engineering or programming background questions you have to use precise words and questions, otherwise they are not fit for their job.. He should have been asked along the line of "does the Fujitsu Horizon's reports (not accounts) produce an accurate reflection of the of the data entered and process that data accurately without introducing errors." Whilst the chap should have been more proactively helpful rather than answering the questions as asked, he was completely right not to answer whether the data output from Horizon was suitable for "tax accounts" unless that had actually be part of the design brief given to Horizon.

[@charlespeters9626]

Spot on. It gets back to what was detailed in the Service Level Agreement (SLA) or Contract. If it ain't in the Contract then any old thing will do.

[@myleswalsh6365]

" DENY EVERYTHING BALDRICK "

[@christopherjones6170]

They knew the problems !

[@audreymcleod6262]

A bloody disgrace. Is there nobody. Willing to take responsibility. For the the hellish. Wron* they hav3 done to people. People hav3 committed. Suicide. Lost every thing and this thing does not want to answer. Questions.

[@TheSkunkyMonk]

Should be forced to make it open source and the post office should just hire a small programming team to work on it instead they choose to keep paying Fujitsu absurd prices for a crap product from the 1990's that Fujitisu didn't even make.

[@stuartholcroft2981]

After these reports and enquiries have been completed at huge taxpayer expense, will anyone ever get prosecuted and fined for their part in this debacle? Answers on a postcard please… How does one spell corruption?

[@gliddofglood]

No.

[@Atom-56]

Non of them, show a conscience or any remorse for what they have done to the INOCENT Post Masters. Fujitsu, should be sued for every penny they’ve got and give the Post masters the JUSTIS THEY DESERVE.

[@steveevans4299]

The Fujitsu Post Office software (in all it's versions) has been in place for decades and has proved very stable over that time, and allowed billions of transactions to be performed correctly. This is surely much more about poorly thought through System Requirements, and terrible business and support processes in place between Post office and their Post Masters, which were overly complex in some areas and overly simple in others. It now just feels like a blame game and money grab by the core participants, supported it seems by you.

[@joemurphy2177]

I wish someone would explain to me how remote access is a bug. Surely remote access would be built into the system

[@Marktewk]

All systems have a backdoor. It depends on how the backdoor is managed.

[@terrycraig4415]

Isn’t it time former Prime Minister Tony Blair was called to appear at the enquiry, to explain his part in this dreadful affair?

[@Ian-mj4pt]

Oh yeah just him nobody else? Ffs you tory boy or reform rat ? The government knew and are you forgetting the 11 years of Tory rule? Or didn't it happen. Only Blair .

[@ataxpayer723]

This guy waffles on about internal process, but not about the actual faults in the software that Fujitsu created.

[@carlosgomes2783]

I wish I had the brass neck to talk my way into jobs like this bloke has. I'd be a much wealthier man.

[@Ian-mj4pt]

All seem dim yet have cushy jobs

[@adrianb5601]

You wouldn’t want to be associated with this Guy.

[@myevokebab]

As a software engineer and professional of 30 years (not for fujitsu!) I can tell these answers were given with integrity and honesty, not to mention sympathy for the postmasters. People don't understand that every software component in a system has bugs. It's seems the overall system end to end is not fit for purpose, but the ignorant way these questions were posed and re-posed again and again left the fujitsu boss no alternative but to answer as honestly as possible; that those broad questions cannot be answered without case by case investigation, understanding what has also happened outside the system. He says they are meeting current SLA's, if that's true then it's on the post office to be accountable. However, I'm not excusing the fujitsu organisation. Severe bugs should be avoided and eliminated in all software, and it's very likely that fujitsu screwed it up in their original implementation, the question for me is, did they hide their screw ups from the post office decision makers? Because if they did then they were at least unethical and possibly dishonest.

[@stevedavy2878]

Fushitsu more than Fugitsu

[@aleccap5946]

Jail time

[@JoanneHawkinsNeewebb-f3j]

Is your accounting system accurate? I can’t answer that because I’m not an accountant. Dear God.

[@chris-vn6sw]

He sounds like a union rep..

[@coam3708]

Ffs 1 pound in and 1 pound out = - 1 so ffs it is not rocket science is it total BS

[@johnleitch2719]

Weed need to go back to pen and paper sytem

[@alistairwilson766]

The program is NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE