Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Jon Snow's Fate | Is He Really Dead?

Did Jon Snow even die at the end of A Dance With Dragons? We don't think so
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[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

We'll be live right around the time you finish this, so come on over if you have any questions kzbin.info/www/bejne/aWfdoIKkhtBprZY

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

The Order of the Green Hand unrelated question but the war between the dragon lords and rhyonar paints the rhynor as victims when a guy pretty much took 250 men to their deaths. I guess what I’m asking is their a secret alliance between the andals and dornish to fight the targs and discredit their people’s achievements? And is Doran and the citadel working together because I doubt a girl could sneak into their organization without them knowing I don’t think sallrra is the first girl to try to be a maestar

[@jamieohare2428]

After watching your videos and hearing your theories, I always come away hoping GRRM is as great of a writer and story weaver as you give him credit for! It’s a great series (of books) but I wonder if he can tie it all up just right. I hope so.

[@endershepard7117]

The Order of the Green Hand wow. This is a fascinating and well-thought out theory! The more I listen to it - the more I like the sound of it...

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Have faith Jamie

[@Liilliithh]

More than a decade has passed; even weak arguments make me want for TWoW... Heck, winds and winter make me want for the winds of winter.

[@gokbay3057]

"A bag of fingerbones" wait so did Mel somehow find that bag? And has the ability to create a Davos glamor?

[@stupidminotaur9735]

she stole them. most likely in the cave/ or on the ship way before the battle of blackwater.

[@Hernameispamela]

I AM IN AWE! You’ve just reawakened my LOVE for ASOIAF and I’m on my way to get the books to start rereading as I type this! I feel like this is the way! We are deciphering TWOW! ALSO SO GLAD MOM AND DAD ARE BACK TOGETHER FOR THE CHANNEL! You have to share custody of us green hand children! I admire your civility and respect for the community you guys created. Now the family is complete again and 2019 didn’t ruin everything after all!

[@dannyshow3801]

I am in awe of your beauty 😍

[@TheeAmethystEmpress6589]

I'm gonna re-read Bran's chapters where he skinchanges Hodor. See how it was portrayed within the story. I believe it would be similar to shadow binding however, instead of being in control, yor shadow is a passenger. Very good video. I think since GRRM is the one that said to question his death and your evidence is compelling, I am definitely going to read these parts again with your theory in mind. Thank you!

[@winterwolf7423]

What's interesting is that before the show killed and resurrected Jon, this was the most popular opinion about Jon's situation. People would even get angry if people mentioned Jon being dead in passing and jump all over them.

[@Anthony-eg2pj]

That he wasn't dead or that he was glamoured?

[@gokbay3057]

I don't know, I seem to remember him being resurrected being the most popular theory. Melisandre was there in Castle Black after all while we know her powers are stronger than ever near the Wall and Thoros could Revive Beric in the Riverlands 6 times

[@Anthony-eg2pj]

@@gokbay3057 ah, okay. I was curious. I guess no one has ever believed he's actually dead

[@sandmanenters4187]

I just watched Quinn's prediction of Jon's future, and they raised an interesting point that actually lends towards your theory, which I lean towards anyway. They mentioned Jon having similarities with the god Mithras and the White Bull he had to sacrifice. Considering that Tormund is porbably Gerald Hightower, as you guys have pointed out, this is kinda spot on with your theory so far.

[@Firstofhername007]

Thank you, bc I was just about to say “awww poor Tor!!” Brilliant!

[@sandmanenters4187]

@@Firstofhername007 These books are amazing 😉

[@diegoprodriguez]

Before a Storm of Swords, Death was very much a forgone conclusion for a lot of characters. Then we Stoneheart in a Storm of Swords and Aegon in a Dance of Dragons. Now the concept of Death is so loose, characters who we at one time we’re told are dead, like Ser Arthur Dayne, now have theories on if they are still alive, when in a Clash of Kings, we never would’ve thought characters could be revived or in hiding. Plot aside, it’s hard to imagine Jon being dead when now, Idek what dead is supposed to mean in ASOIAF. He could be revived by Melisandre, he could warg out of his body, or maybe he could just be dead. That’s what makes these books so interesting. You don’t really know what can happen to characters

[@oryspyladia5391]

This is fascinating. In Deep Geek has a theory just as compelling that Jon warged into Ghost at the time of his stabbing. You both give such good evidence to back up your respective theories that now I have to go back and reread the book...

[@Hatchet-Jack]

I don’t want Tormund to be dead either

[@anttipollanen3671]

Also, Mel finds her magic more powerful at the wall (glass-candles-burning-kind-of-phenomenon) which means that she's able to produce more sophisticated and better glamour or shadow of Jon than of Stannis when killing Renly.

[@db7213]

You are making very good points. It does seem very strange that Jon would suddenly want horns to be blown all the time. That said, I hope this isn't true. I would be very sad if Tormund is dead.

[@striker8961]

Thought George isn’t the kind of writer to have a fake out death without real consequences… but yeah I hope he’s alive too

[@naimaahmed9730]

I don’t know why but I like the idea that Stoneheart gives her not life/ life for Jon to come back, won’t happen bc it’s hella cheesy but if it did it would be interesting how GRRM would do it oh and she’s in the neck and we’re not into teleporting so definitely won’t happen

[@alanpennie8013]

It might calm the Cat haters down if it happened.

[@sabrinakrisb4672]

Maybe that'd bring some kind of peace for Stoneheart?

[@PedroLucas-mg5je]

Or maybe, since we must consider that Cat has Robb's crown, Stoneheart might crown Jon King in the North!

[@gokbay3057]

28:55 I think your Longclaw not listening to someone else falls flat because Ice definitely didn't resist Ser Ilyn in killing Ned.

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

But Ned already had resigned his life in order to safe his family?

[@R.O.Yvonne]

People have been stabbed over 20-30 times and have survived (ex: the slender man girls case). And of course getting stabbed/sliced would have you bleeding. There have been times where people have died for dozens of minutes and come back to life. It can be the same for Jon. So he has a high chance of surviving this encounter.

[@Storm_01]

Example my mama & best friend so yes it is extremely possible to survive mere 4 stab wounds

[@stephensmith2134]

No clue what's up with your personal lives but its soooooo good to hear both of yall on a video!

[@PixelatedEpiphany]

This is legitimately brilliant. Great job. Never even considered this possibility.

[@abirdhasnoname.5376]

This is my absolute favorite theory so far. Great work, you guys!

[@johngo3715]

This is genius! You think your other theory of Mance and other head figures of the Wildlings being Rhaegar's Kingsguards could apply to this? If Tormund is a former Kingsguard then he could have spent a huge part of the 2 hours revealing it to Jon and letting Jon take it all in. Hence setting up Tormund sacrificing himself for Jon.

[@shannond7437]

I never noticed how much this scene echoes the letter Stannis sent out to the realm claiming his Kingship. Davos couldn’t read the letter like Tormund and he even flexes his fingers if I recall.

[@alanotheoak6002]

Jon's death only means end of his watch and can pursue his king-in-the-north plot. That is why everyone is happy for his death and maybe resurrection and becoming the Targaryan king :). But, Jon's place is at the Wall to unify people for the wars to come. The Wall without Jon would fall apart. I like your wars to come theory and Mance being Arthur Dayne. It makes much more sense and creates better story than Jon being Raegar and Lyanna's son. Besides, we had great characters before books begin. Why don't we use some of them.

[@weaverbee2808]

Milady, you do NOT disappoint! This was absolutely brilliant!

[@annelieberman7221]

This might be your best theory yet. I certainly hope it’s true.

[@aaronslade9301]

Loved this video! You sold me. I was going to say tho, if it was tormund that got stabbed, wouldn’t we see his character come out in his language? But I forgot, you guys sold me on Tormund not really being tormund years ago. His pirate talk is just an act. So you possibly have an experienced actor playing the part of jon here. Great video!

[@della5069]

Man, this has been bothering me as well. In the books not even Jons parentage is officially known and they go and kill him? It just doesn't make any sense. The whole chapter has the same foreboding as the Jojen Paste chapter but instead - with nobody being the person they claim to be. I like this, I really hope this turns out to be true!

[@amandab2858]

But I love Tormund :( Very good points, I wondered about if he warged into Ghost, but hadn't considered Glamour.

[@tylerbarrett6652]

We haven't seen Jon learn much about his warging abilities so far... but if Bran can inhabit Hodor... why couldn't Jon inhabit Tormund. I mean... it doesn't seem like he'd be able to yet or that he would even think about it... but if he did, in fact, send for Melisandre... who knows what they practiced for the other hour and forty five minutes... or what she might have been able to teach him or pull off. How does the warging work in combination with shadow binding? It's a good theory... I can't wait till the next book comes out! Driving myself crazy, I think.

[@michaelstark8720]

Great theory! Poor Tormund in case if its true ;-)

[@Yddriss]

JFC. This is so fucking good! You guys add so much reread value to this series.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you !!

[@stephanieh9706]

I love this theory. This close reading is remarkable and I think you are right. It's certainty plausible. 👏👏

[@armyofninjas9055]

Very interesting theory. Personally, I lean towards his warging into ghost. But this is certainly the only other plausible explanation I've ever heard. It very well could be this.

[@Moeller750]

This has got to be your best video yet! I've always thought Jon abandoning his vows to head for winterfell was completely out of character, but this puts everything together!

[@ganykaliya7811]

I can't believe it's been 9 years since the book has published. At this point I doubt AWOW will ever be published. If I may make a suggestion, how about as many ASOIAF theorists get together and give us an outline of what they think AWOW will be like? Although, George's "gardener" style of writing may mean that he would change things. I mean, it's better than nothing I guess.

[@joshhoffman5233]

So that’s how her shadow babies work with that linked mind business. But not with Mance and rattle shirt as far as we know. Since rattleshirt was dead. I feel like there should be some small clue in the text that Jon is physically elsewhere. Besides the fourth stab cold thing. Something about where he actually is. Fun theory though, as always!

[@lokidoki525]

I belive that Jon maybe resurected by Melisandre but not by the way of the red priets but with magic from ashai like Drogo in the first book. However this time it does work or it doesn't. However the theory that he didn't even die seems more likely since GRRM in the books doesn't kill his pov characters often compared to the show. The only ones he killed was ned and Quentyn. Cathlyn died but was brought back to live. Well researched theory thumps up.

[@christophercortez7191]

What i appreciate about the manner ASOIAF is written is that nothing is set in stone. Everything is "known to be"..."it is believed that...."....."it was said that....". Its almosy like all historical text. Sure can either assume that all history is 100% or since its writted from a certain point of view that its written as an interpretation and must be taken with a grain of salt. Like at the end of this story you might have to take it all as "or at least that is what is believed to have happened". So it makes the universe feel grounded. Was it truely MAGIC that caused so and so to happen or coincidence. The magic is a soft magic sort of system, like real life. Was is that that prayer you recited last night that solved so and so problem or was it something more rational but unknown to yourself?

[@josephrush9965]

Great video, great supporting evidence, I prefer the idea of some sort of Jon ghost soul mixing theory after some sort of resurrection but I really enjoyed the videos and ideas as well as you both working together. Keep the dream team going! Great content, great work, looking fwd to seeing what George decides to go with moving. Looking fwd to any and all future videos keep it up !

[@Lotschi]

That is a great theory but it would be a quite sad thing havong Tormund dead, especially if he is the third knight of Rheagars Kingsguard.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Agreed

[@ambern7734]

oh I am so hoping your right because this would be a fun read.

[@N8ive]

aaah I missed you Two. KZbin just pushed a bunch of AsOIAF content into my stream and there was a giddy excitement when hearing your intro

[@peteperkins3859]

Watched a podcast on KZbin channel interviewing a Navy Seal named Mike Day. He was shot 27 times during a raid in Afghanistan. The dude walked himself to the evac helicopter. During the interview, it's obvious his PTSD is affecting him. But, he did fine. Dude is a real life badass. It's not out of the question to survive being stabbed 4 times.

[@metalsucks9]

as someone who’s been stabbed once, fairly deep to the gut, he would need medical assistance immediately. like being stabbed hurts like a motherfucker. 4 times isn’t out if question but it’s definitely a bit of stretch.

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

And having modern medicine didnt have anything with it?

[@feral7523]

Best theory yev had yet clever and believeable...Nicely done and a big welcome back to the Greenhand duo

[@DafyddBrooks]

WOW!! I asked you guys a while ago weather jon will be resurrected in the middle or at the end of winds of winter as opposed to the beginning. now that question just seems irrelevant now haha . brilliant guys well done

[@MarkLatimerRussell]

That theory just made me decide to subscribe. Brilliant stuff.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you

[@peterwalls-qf7ii]

Glamouring Torment to look like John, makes sense. John can't die yet, he hasn't learned what he doesn't know. I was always wondering, where the hell was Ghost. John gets attacked, stabbed, and nothing form ghost? Not a lament for his death, no rage his friend died, not even a growl? Does Not Compute. Now Torment getting stabbed, Ghost has no interest in that.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you !

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

that was my first ever “theory”

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

I was wondering the same! That got me to being open to other possibilities, i remember anytime i read it or listened to the audiobook it was weird that ghost did not react. Especially with all the effort George puts into describing how Grey Wind behaved when Robb was in danger

[@jjvoity7797]

This new guy has a great voice and seems very knowledgeable, Mary Ellen. I hope you hold onto him.

[@subarnosinha8042]

This "new guy" is actually the old guy, who has been since the start of the channel.

[@tracywhitlock5395]

Great job as always guys! You two are honestly brilliant in these videos together!

[@ryandilavore5495]

So glad to see together like this miss these videos continue to being true to your word!

[@PhillipChalabi]

Wooo! Much excite! Lets do this!

[@dennisyoungblood349]

Haven't listened to the whole video yet, but I always thought that Melisandre was going to loose Ghost, Ghost would then reek havoc (along with loyalists to Jon), and Melisandre would then heal Jon before he dies. That's just me though

[@Yosya8059]

Jesus, guys, you’re mind blowing! I’ve missed your character videos. The theory of Jon warging into Ghost was so popular because of the show, that I would never have thought about thinking further. But with Asoiaf there’s always a room for thinking further!

[@nymerianan4short314]

So does That mean that when Mance was burned or a.k.a.Rattleshirt did mance feel the burn like Jon felt the cold ???? I mean he does say to Mel that every night he feels like he’s on fire I think he implies that it’s the bracelet that is burning him am not sure as I don’t have the book to hand to quote from.

[@robrick9361]

Jon survived by crawling underneath a dumpster.

[@benmayor2835]

How does Jon read the letter at the hall, if Tormund can’t read?

[@ravenstrategist1325]

Tormund can read,Tormund is not his real name.

[@GeminibBorn]

A return to greatness

[@anamarraw57]

You´re the Lightbringers of this community, thank you!

[@memesnow3788]

Oh no! Don’t kill Tormund. I love that guy more than Jon

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

Sometimes I feel bad for our lady taking out the time to get the perfect visuals, and me ending up only listening to the videos while I do something else. I have listened to every of your videos at least 4 times. I haven't seen almost any of them

[@KokettaKnowles]

15 mins into this video and you both have me rethinking the story. 🤔

[@acrawford2634]

Soooooooo GLAD your back!

[@chelseacruise6570]

OK, so I love this theory. And I hope it’s true. The only thing is I would hate to lose Tormund; he’s one of my favorite characters. I also think that if it were up to me, I would definitely revisit the sequence of events from another perspective. I also think it would be great. If this is the route GRRM took because it would make up for the show. A little bit.

[@silversailer]

George has stated that the chapters are not written from a first person viewpoint. They are written from a third person viewpoint. You can read any other chapter in the books to find this out. The fourth knife aspect of this argument doesn't work because of that, but everything else seems pretty solid

[@123vict5]

4th time watching this video, learn something new everytime

[@mistymathis257]

My mind is literally blown!

[@TammyJerkChicken]

Not gonna Lie, over the last couple months I've been really annoyed by "Jon is amazing and cannot die because he is the best boy and magic will just fix it- he is THE chosen one" It seems so dumb to get to that point in a GRRM book and think that! I always thought that if that i could see a "Jon stays dead screw you D and D" scenario in the books but I can actually see a Undercover Jon working well among the Mercy and Alayne Chapters but might be messy to unravel for George this as enough foreshadowing and just altogether better argument then "It happened in the show so its actually canon!" I know people want a Wolfie Jon but ... like why? seems like a its a one way street to me and all someone would need to do is kill Ghost and that plan is toast! and if s Riverlanders know that then Northers or Wildlings definitely will Great Theory! i watched this when it released and watching it again I really like it :D

[@seanshamblin1131]

What I don't understand about this theory is: John wants to go and handle business at Winterfell but he can't be an oath breaker. So he swaps places with Tormund so that the wildlings will follow Tormund south, thinking it's John, while he goes north as Tormund. But everyone at the Wall still thinks they're seeing John breaking his vows. So all of the glamouring and trickery is done so that LATER ON John can say that he never broke his vows? But all of the men of the Night's Watch still think John is attending his personal matters while he orders them to go on a suicide mission, led by a wildling, to rescue wildlings. I like this theory, and I read the chapter again with it in mind. But I couldn't get over the idea that they would engage in all that risky magic and complex disguising while John still has to go on the crazy ass Hardhome journey only now he has to do it as Tormund and everyone believes him an oath breaker and that he's sending off his men to die on an impossible mission (while he's actually leading the mission).

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

They only need to deceive the Watch that Jon is going to the North and Tormund to the south. Free folk wouldnt really care about his oath? And even if they were not in on it, they’d follow Tormund to save Mance?

[@christophertracy7136]

How can this man not finish the Winds of Winter?

[@firefireice5229]

I like this but I don’t understand why Jon choose to be tormund to go north of the wall why not have a John go north and a fake John south a fake tormund doesn’t seem necessary.

[@shannond7437]

I do enjoy wordplay with George! 😊

[@joshhoffman5233]

You mean gerold Hightower died?

[@yatisnow5683]

I agree 100%!!!!! Quick question my friend believes r+l=j (so annoying!) I believe n+a=j. My friend said why does Mormonts raven say Jon snow king in adwd. I said cuz he is the king of the north not the king of the 7 kingdoms. Do u agree! Love ur videos!!! I always am excited when there is a new 1!

[@JoeyWhisperz]

Also Davos' finger bag

[@TheDemonking82]

It wasn’t Jon in that scene in the book. It also could have been magic to switch him with someone else nearby to Jon. And lady stone hearts is on her way up north to Jon with the crown from rob and his will or is already there and is working in the shadows with Jon.

[@subarnosinha8042]

2nd rewatch. If Tormund is glamoured to look like Jon and Jon like Tormund, and Tormund is stabbed by the NW, then where is Jon? What'll he do now his plan has fallen apart thanks to Tormund getting stabbed?

[@mdarragh6805]

I was just thinking that I am not sure that Tommand knows how to read? So mayhaps he memorized the letter?

[@MrTomdadon]

Jon could come back in one way or another.. but tormund is probs just dead. Suh sad

[@swordothemorning]

I was hopeful and curious after watching the video so I went back and reread the end of A Dance with Dragons. Personally, I don't see enough evidence that Tormund was the one actually stabbed. Beyond that, if Tormund really was killed it would be a really terrible way to kill his character. I don't think Jon asking for a horn was strange, especially since he just saw Tormund calm the men down on two occasions. Also, I'm not surprised George made a comment in the interview about whether or not Jon is really dead. He isn't going to admit to the truth either way so he simply introduced doubt to make this person, and all of us, second guess ourselves. I am usually of changed mind after watching your videos. Yes, Catelyn is the worst person ever. Actually second worst. Wait until you see (hopefully) Griselda in my book. She is one bad luck token. I firmly believe in N + A = J. I even have my shirt. This time, sadly, I'm not completely sold.

[@ismata3274]

😲😨 damn that man knows how to write. but i am less and less convinced that i know how to read. 😅 this was a very convincing video, but did tormund die really? i mean, i dont suppose rattleshirt sacrificed himself (did he? dont know, maybe) so does the two parties need to know and agree to the glamour? if not, any one of enemies of john could have been used? dont know about the speech part though, that ones though to accomplish.

[@bryanhamstra4045]

If its a glamour who is the person who died in jons place?

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

jon and tormund switched places for the reasons set forth in the video

[@thedexeter2662]

Melisandre using shadowbinder magic on Tormund wasn't an angle I'd considered before. I appreciate the points made about how through using the shadow, Jon and Tormund could be as "one mind." This REALLY reminds me of similar magic that Arya encounters when dealing with the faceless men. When Arya puts on the "glamour" face of the Ugly Girl and she could feel and experience the girls pain and sorrow from when her father would beat her before she came to the House of Black and White. An interesting parallel I wanted to bring up. Love the Theory!

[@Optionsaregood]

A very strong argument, makes me want to get my hands on Winds of Winter even more.

[@theinvisiblewoman6783]

To further support this fantastic theory. When Stannis’s shadow kills Renly. Stannis is dreaming exactly what happened, so his mind has is conscious of what the shadow is doing.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

You just said what I was trying to say significantly more succinctly than I did

[@melissaisloud7404]

Jon Snow is the 50cent of Westeros! Side note; Maybe Ghost and the Raven were agitated bc Jon had already been magiked. Perhaps they noticed this ‘Jon’ wasn’t their Jon. No evidence. Just a passing thought I had during this video.

[@sergoldenhandthejust1495]

Now how would that make sense??? I mean it's jon's pov chapter and we are inside his head

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

@@sergoldenhandthejust1495 Literally explained on the Stannis example during the video, Jaime

[@ryanelliott71698]

I won’t lie. This is a GENIUS theory

[@Yddriss]

I love their theories.

[@RizztrainingOrder]

Do you lie a lot to feel the need to preface your statement with that exclamation?

[@bw126]

Bran survived the fall in part to his connection to summer. He would get worse if they closed the window. The glamour thing could be true... but i think even if it is Jon, the warg connection seems to keep Starks alive when they should die.

[@andreiporthun]

not only starks. the prologue to ADWD is about skin changer who dies and kind of transfer his mind to one of his animals. GRRM always use his prologues to tell an important plot of that book. And early in the chapter, jon went to inspect the ice cells, and is said to us that they can store dead watchmans there. I think Jon is going to warg on ghost, his body will be stored in the ice cells and he’s going to be brought back to life

[@hannahbrennan2131]

I think he warged into Ghost just before he died. His last word was literally "Ghost".

[@made-line7627]

A lot of basis for this happening in the series, also. Most notably with Orell and his eagle, and Varymir Sixskins' attempt after his death.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Just like Robb

[@made-line7627]

@@Richard_Nickerson Preston Jacobs? Didn't even pick up on that till one of his "Daggers for Jon" videos. To be honest though, as much as I love the pick-up there, I don't like the idea. Robb should be dead. It flows too nicely that the only child Cat thought was alive (until the RW) was the only one who *actually* died

[@TammyJerkChicken]

@@made-line7627 hi! Even if Robbs soul moved into greywind he would still be dead as the wolf was murdwred too saddly thats really break my heart a 3rd time when reading the Orell chapter

[@praetorxyn]

Pretty much that exact thing has already been done in another book series I know for a fact George has read (as there's a blurb from him in the front of one of them). I have too much faith in George to believe he'll just straight rip off an author he likes.

[@TalkingThrones]

They're back!

[@titolopez6754]

But I'm from the future

[@sabrinakrisb4672]

I think Jon is going to warg into Ghost and then back into his human body..... and in doing so he'll be taking some of the direword spirit back with him too.

[@Druidjezus]

Based on some of your other theories, does this mean you think Gerold Hightower died for Jon Snow, would be an interesting fit if you're correct that Halfhand = Oswell Whent also died to protect Jon.

[@brightglory5734]

George is going to "subvert" our expectations.

[@anaiglesias9972]

God I hate the word subvert. But yeah, George will make it work.

[@deg1studios]

@@anaiglesias9972 what's wrong with the word "subvert"?

[@serdnazerreitug]

If Brandon still becomes the king 👑 then this book series died with season 8 of the show.....with thunderous subverted expectations...John deserves better

[@deg1studios]

@@serdnazerreitug I think *Jon* at least deserves to have his three-letter-long name spelled correctly. Especially in the comment section of a video which has his name, spelled correctly, in the title.

[@gigicestone4902]

At this point, subverting expectations would be to let Jon stay dead.

[@jamieohare2428]

“I think fans are going to argue about it until the next book comes out.” Or eternity... whichever comes first. 😂 Glad The Wolf’s Den is going strong and keeping me interested in the books. The show almost killed it for me

[@panchgavyatherapist]

I hear Martin got corrona..... and died he is no more.....

[@jamieohare2428]

@@panchgavyatherapist haha, he should be so lucky. I had to do a quick search and evidently there are a bunch of articles about him saying the Wuhan Wobbles have led him to focus more on the final book. Fingers crossed!

[@panchgavyatherapist]

@@jamieohare2428 winds of winter taking too much time..... It's like more than 5 years been waiting for it...

[@jamieohare2428]

@@panchgavyatherapist maybe China can release another virus so GRRM can finally get around to finishing it. 😂

[@michaeldriggers7681]

I think George is aiming for eternity

[@LyricalXilence]

ITS BOTH OF U!!!!!!!

[@LadyFromEast]

It's interesting how Melissandre mentions a bag of fingerbones whilst telling Jon about how the glamor works, after Davos having lost his own bag of fingerbones chapters before.

[@tylerschrand1834]

chapters before? that was the start of Storm...

[@kalibhakta8640]

@@tylerschrand1834 well, that's chapters before. Lots and lots of chapters...

[@nigellemaitre8363]

@@kalibhakta8640 Lol!!

[@Lotschi]

oh, interesting point!

[@DSFARGEG00]

To be fair, in the novels there's an extra factor in play that might not make Jon a mere fire wight: he's a warg, and on death wargs scoot off to an additional life. If Melly's magic brings Jon back as a wight, his soul will already be safely ensconced in Ghost. I suppose then he might be warging his old body back from whatever inhabits it in his wake. Assuming he does, indeed, bodily die.

[@justincurll1110]

You guys never fail to amaze me. I like, don't watch shows anymore. I just listen to your channel, lol. I swear most of the ASOIAF youtubers are more concerned with proving their theories right than figuring out what's actually going on. While other youtubers definitely have other things to offer, when it comes to theorizing, I find you guys and Preston to be the most thorough and rational.

[@striker8961]

If Tormund gets a chapter while he impersonates Jon I hope it’s called “The Lord Commander” … for… well you know.

[@kieronlarkin3926]

Here's a thought. After the 2 hour talk Jon says "with me" to his guards at the door when he leaves. However, if memory serves for the rest of ADWD, Jon always refuses his guards offer of an escort around the castle. Perhaps a part of Tormund trying to act how he thinks a lord commander should act instead of acting how Jon would?Can't say I'm fully on board just yet but (right or wrong) this is a fantastic theory!

[@ivanbluecool]

Speaking of berric. I actually liked him in the show same with the brotherhood as they kept thier honor until the end while stone heart went from avenge to revenge to killer so fast. Both killed in brutal ways but different awakening

[@Drew_Thompson]

What if Jon coming back doesn't mean he's infertile, he just doesn't get anymore refills?

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

for a man that's the same

[@BlackHand531]

Thank God!! The order is back!

[@chadsummerchild1120]

Bummed I missed it live. Oh well go green hand!

[@jaysemitchells497]

Preston?!