Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Doran Martell's Hidden Dagger

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

I noticed a lot of people are wondering why Tyrion was able to strangle a Sand Snake, so here's a quick explanation that I hope helps...Tyrion may be a dwarf, but he has survived two battles and a skirmish in the Mountains of the Moon, in which he killed a few full grown men...he also took her by surprise when he suddenly twisted the chain that was already around her neck and put all his weight behind it and pulled until it was over...it's also important to remember that the Sand Snakes in the books aren't like the ones in the show...Obara is the only real fighter in the group that seems likely to have enough size and strength to really hold her own in hand to hand combat...Nym seems to use throwing knives (based on the fact that she carries 10 at a time), but her size and stature make it seem unlikely that she is overly skilled in hand to hand combat...Tyene definitely doesn't appear to be a fighter...she's more of a straight up assassin that weaponized her apparent innocence, which allows her to poison you with the most innocuous of touches...we think Sarella/Shae is like Tyene, except Sarella/Shae uses her opposite of innocence to get close, which actually makes a lot of sense, because it gives Oberyn and Doran two very different lethal poisoners, so they'd have the perfect assassin for just about any target...if innocence would be the better tool to get close, send Tyene...if sexiness is the best way to get close to a target, send Sarella/Shae

[@emiliocamachoerice6380]

The Order of the Green Hand also his arms might be disproportionately big when compared to his body

[@malmorbidus2788]

I can only assume that as a lil person he experiences pain/fatigue with lots of walking and activity. If that were me, I'd use my able-arms for support as much as possible. I mean you'd have to after climbing dozens of stairs just to crawl upon a normal sized bed, up off of the ground a few feet.

[@Gibbons3457]

But Sarella couldn't have been Shae, since Alleras, who Sam meats at the Citadel is Sarella. She's Maester Marwin's genius student.

[@CrabCrow]

Tyrion is also a tumbler and can walk on his hands. He's fairly strong and acrobatic.

[@SaneMillennial]

Gibbons they explain in the earlier part of the video why the person at the citadel cannot be Sarella. Please listen to it.

[@robrick9361]

George RR Martin is gonna send a faceless man after you two, if you don't stop spoiling his magnum opus.

[@scottphillips3762]

Shae says Tyrion put her lover in the van hoping he would die- ironic given Tywin put Tyrion in the van for that reason

[@ahmedbentebbakh7933]

He doesn't put him there the chief of the clans man is the who demands tgat tyrion is with then at the van

[@mike.n.n.7723]

Tyrion wasn't in the Van, I think it was Addam Marbrand or Kevan who was leading the vanguard, and Tywin was leading the reserves. Tyrion was on the left flank with the Mountain's men, green boys, peasants, mercenaries and the Clansmen ie. Basically the most undisciplined fighters who would break and run when they faced any kind of difficulty What Tywin planned was for that flank to collapse (killing Tyrion in the process) so that Robb would send most of his men into the gap, then Tywin would surround Robb's army by diverting the rest of his forces towards that flank. Tywin was hoping that Robb would lead the army himself. However, Tyrion's Wildings performed better than expected, and Roose Bolton couldn't break through and retreated with most of his army intact.

[@fuckoffGoogle-FOG]

I think he might of got em' big F in chat for Mi'lord and Lady of the Greenhand. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF F F F F F F F F FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF F F F F F F F F F F F F XD Ignore me, sorry I bothered you with a dead thread this was my intro to ASOIAF when season 8 caught fire and I had no idea what any of it was about that everyone was shouting about so I had to start looking into the lore to understand the outrage and then...well *several* years later these 2 still have me re reading this series of books.

[@davidwilson6577]

If the theory is true then Shae being with Tywin is a recipe for Dead Tywin. Ironically, Tyrion murders Shae and Tywin together. Her actions led to his death, but in a completely different way than she intended.

[@ReeceDee]

On interesting note, George says if he doesn't know a character's name he doesn't know who they are. I looked up the name Shae and it's a derivative of the name Seamus which means Supplanter. So her name literally derives from the word Supplanter to overthrow what was there before. Adds a hell of a lot of foreshadowing to all the sketchy things she has been saying and doing throughout the story.

[@Druidjezus]

I had always found Shae to be one of the most confusing characters in the book, I could never understand why she would insist on putting herself in harm's way to be closer to Tyrion despite not having any feelings for him. She had many opportunities to 'take the money and run' but didn't. Also, I think it is a very interesting proposition that Shae was Tywin's before Bronn found her for another reason: Tywin does not seem like the sort of man to 'take his son's leavings', considering his opinion of Tyrion. That said, if Shae had been with him first, I don't think he'd view it that way. I, like many others, had sort of just assumed that Alleras was Sarella, as there didn't seem to be a better explanation for where she was, but once you started pointing out the flaws with it that made me think of some other problems. The Sand Snakes have quite a reputation in Dorne, and the people from the Reach would likely not be huge fans of Oberyn's daughters. The Citadel is, if nothing else, an information and communications hub. If someone as well known as one of the Sand Snakes tried to infiltrate the Citadel, she might be recognized or the Citadel may notice that they're no longer receiving updates on her and try and follow her trail, but by disappearing completely as a camp follower in the Riverlands, she was very unlikely to be recognized and could likely resurface as a completely new person without anyone taking notice. A fascinating theory, and it finally makes some sense out of what the hell Shae was doing and why.

[@RPG_Angie]

This is the first video of yours I'm seeing. Having two narrators is a brilliant idea! Switching inbetween them helps with the attention span, gives a different voice to sidenotes and quotes, AND makes the script sound more like two friends discussing the show.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you so much

[@johnathankinne3998]

Oberyn- gets confession, also gets head crushed in while hearing it. Sarella-poisons Tywin with widows blood, has the shame of being a badass assassin getting choked to death by the imp while waiting for Tywin to try and shit with his asshole poisoned shut. Quentin-catches dragon, dragon catches him. The Martells go out worse than the Starks even in the books.

[@SoméDjata]

Would Oberyn really violate his own daughter for the sake of revenge? What would even be his Logic behind that? "I am going to avenge my family by violating my daughter" it just doesn't make sense to me. I know Oberyn has questionable morals and is sexually liberal but that seems a bit extreme too extreme for him.

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

For the Greater Good or in Jamie words “I crossed a thousand leagues to come to you, and lost the best part of me along the way. Don't tell me to leave.” When Elia and her kids died the best part of Oberyn died only a creature of vengeance remained.

[@SoméDjata]

If what Shae is saying is completely true then yes I guess Oberyn did do that. But what is she is only telling a "Half-truth" Shea/Sarella was made a whore by here father, but in manner more like what Littlerfinger(one of Doran's friends) did to Jeyne Poole/Fake Arya, Throw her in a brothel for a few years of "training".

[@Pedro-m7f3f]

@@SoméDjata No, oberyn would never do such a thing

[@rev6215]

Even if Shae was Oberyn's plan, she was in no way his own daughter. Sarella is more likely in Oldtown forging a maester's chain, just like her father did, before he grew "bored" and quit. Maybe Alleras the Sphinx too would "grow bored" after she's done doing whatever she's done doing with Marwyn.

[@andreyamane8892]

It does seem to not make sense to break your family up to avenge your family. I still think Sarella is Alleras, mostly because for me it makes more sense for Varys to be Doran's ally than Littlefinger (who is not even on court to tell him of Cersei's plan to kill Trystane), but it wouldn't completely throw their theory off. The Sand Snakes appear to be more encouraged by Oberyn than molded, like he saw their qualities as assets and helped them to develop. Shaerella could just have developed her sexuality naturally like Arianne. Not with the other girls, who didn't like her, but with whoever she chose.

[@nebulanigrimleonis3883]

It makes sense that Shae is a sand snake. In the show, when Tyrion assumes that she comes from a low family. Shae was deeply offended and told him that not only was he wrong. But, she would carve his eyes out, if he talked about her parents again. And she never answered the question.

[@redbayly]

Really like this theory. It's definitely more interesting than just having Alleras be Sarella, which just seems a bit too obvious (and we all know George likes to throw in some red herrings for us to chase). But maybe there IS a connection between Alleras and Sarella, even if Sarella is Shae. I found it odd that all Oberyn's recognized bastards are girls (it's not impossible that he's only fathered daughters, but kind of weird knowing his habits). So, the choices are: He's only fathered daughters, he only knew about his daughters, or he only wanted his daughters. Also consider the fact that Oberyn was also known to take his bastard children home with him, with or without the consent of their mothers (as Obara remembers her mother trying to keep her and later drinking herself to death over her child being taken away). Add in the fact that Alleras does look so much like Sarella, maybe Alleras is her brother, perhaps even her twin? He's unrecognized because either his father only wanted to raise his daughters or Alleras and Sarella's mother managed to hide him from his father to keep him from being taken away. Maybe that's also the real reason Sarella visited Oldtown so often, because she knew her brother planned to go there someday and she wanted to see him again.

[@marcusanark2541]

Very interesting, I think you might actually be up to something.

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

I was thinking the same, they might be siblings. George likes to add a gazillion characters and tiny backstories. Not all of them will pan out and be brought back and that’s just something we should learn to accept. I like that he adds those details, it makes the story. Story is not just a bunch plotpoints strung together, the filling in between is what makes it interesting. I mean look at the TV show. They stopped doing anything that wasn’t a plotpoint or a gag for cheap laughs and nothing that happened made sense

[@dengy32]

you need to be on George's payroll. you guys just keep revitalizing my interest in ASOIAF

[@camrn_brian]

Whoa whoa whoa wait... you dropped the Shae is Sarella theory? So much love. So much.

[@chadsummerchild1120]

I suppose playoff hockey will have to wait. The Order of the Green Hand has risen its banner.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

We weren’t sure you’d answer the call

[@chadsummerchild1120]

The Order of the Green Hand I swore an oath of subscription. Oh and these videos are awesome!!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Aw thanks Chadwick! Love, Lady Green Hand

[@debodatta7398]

I was one of the people who thought Alleras was Sarella but the way you guys broke it down here makes so much more sense. Just magnificent.

[@babybalrog]

Question, if Shae is Sarella Sand, then why do we not hear about her death in books 4 &5? The Dornish POV indicates that she is still alive.

[@Rakonax]

exactly. there is no way shae could be sarella imo

[@made-line7627]

Yeah, good point. Unless Dorne either doesn't care, or doesn't yet know about her death.

[@temptationofmemories]

Cersei has Shae's body removed from Tywin's bed to be dismembered and fed to the dogs, so nobody really knows that she is dead besides Cersei and Tyrion I think. She's just dropped off the radar and with all the stuff that has gone on around Kingslanding and the crownlands lately it's possible that they simply don't know what happened to her. It is also possible that only Doran knew that she was in Kingslanding but once lady Nym and Tyenne are in the city they may uncover that Shae was really Sarella and that she's dead.

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

Also the timeline is not chronological, we should never forget that The conversation about Sarella between Doran and Areo Hotah is the 2nd chapter of AFFC, Tyrion kills Shae near the end of ASOS, chronologically even if they happened one after the other, Doran doesn’t have to know she is dead. He just found out Oberyn is dead and he is gathering the sand snakes. It takes some time for the news to travel the realm. In the books there’s some time between Oberyn dying and Tywin and Shae dying. Further more, let’s say Doran got news from King’s Landing instantly from Littlefinger (via glass candle or something), Littlefinger was on a boat on his way to the Vale. It would take him some time to find out Shae is dead and then notify Doran. Assuming he would even consider that important information. Doran didn’t care about the Sand Snakes lives and their safety. He couldn’t care less about that. He wanted them kept near to control them because after Oberyn died they could be acting out in the immediate aftermath

[@kyotaiken]

Man, I just went through every one of your videos and took lots of notes and put them all in chronological order. This is because I've been wanting to reread all of these books for a few years now(I read them all only once, and that was when Season 1 had just ended), but I couldn't find the motivation or time to do so. But this video was what pushed me over the line, because there's just sooooooooooooooooo much that I missed, or that I just didn't understand during my first read through. I'm excited to go back through this story with a much better understanding of everything and seeing how much more of it I can wrap my head around. And maybe even finding some new theories of my own, or what could be even greater than that, would be me finding PROOF that vindicates your Ashara and Ned theory. On a side note, I was thrilled to see this video clocking in at nearly 40 minutes. If you guys turned this into more of a podcast, and had new videos coming in at an hour long, or even more, nearly all of a your followers would be glad to have more of you in their(our) lives each week, hahahah. I don't know any of your followers who would be upset at a move like that from you two. Keep the videos coming, I love them. You're my favorite Got channel

[@NikolaPj]

I support you in your decision to reread them :) , I did my reread last year and it was a blast, knowing much more than I did when reading for the first time during season 1. Cheers! :)

[@99smite]

Do not, I repeat, do not reread the books now! Wait until greedy cash grabber GRRM finally comes out of the closet with the final book and a finished tale! I started reading the books at the end of the last century and was quite happy that the books were published soon after each other... Until that sucker made a deal with HBO and went on endless book tours, where he basically gave the finger to all his fans, telling them that the books will be published at a time of his choosing, that he was too busy and that meanwhile we could go and buy all the other books he had written since he abandoned the asoiaf project...

[@natashaconrad3367]

Wow guys!!! I LOVED this!!! I had been thinking that Shae was secretly meant for Tywin when they were in the camp but was stolen by Bronn for Tyrion. Of course Tywin couldn't admit to that, though, because of his image. You guys, though, you took it to a whole other level and really blew my mind!! It all makes perfect sense to me and I do believe you got this one right on! Keep up the wonderful, mind blowing work you guys are doing!!

[@gllyflower]

How did...what did...omg you guys I'm even more blown away than usual. First off, I feel like Lady Greenhand's voicing of Shae is like she read my mind. That sort of pouty annoying voice was exactly how I heard her in my head and I felt like I never really embraced the show Shae. Also, Shae twigged my radar right from the start, but I could never put my finger on why. I just knew she annoyed the crap out of me in every scene she was in and I felt this sort of dissonance between her words, her actions, her background, her (for lack of a better word) profession. ESPECIALLY that she gave up her cush sitch to work as a servant--I COULD NEVER understand that. Now I see why... Anyway, always in awe of your powers of perception/research and this is no exception. Perhaps you are the only ones (besides GRRM himself of course) who can figure out where whores go....

[@emilystaal4024]

Best guess is that Alleras and Sarella are twins. There’s no way to prove the negative that Oberyn didn’t have any boys. The claim that “no one has thought about him” doesn’t really pan out in my opinion. POV characters don’t spell out a lot of things for us. For example, Arya straight up murders Dareon and skips over that adventure entirely until she tells the kindly man. POV isn’t all knowing all the time. George likes to keep his secrets. And he loves interesting genetics, why not fraternal twins.

[@chrisdelisle3954]

This is one of your most compelling videos. It never occurred to me, but when you think about it, there are so many characters that are mysteries or have mysterious backgrounds. I would love for this to be true. I hope we find out...soon.

[@thisguy8106]

Wow. Mind blown. Touche'. Tofreakinshae'.. lol

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Hahahaha now that was clever !!

[@namewastaken360]

Asking questions and butting in where she doesn't belong? Hmmm where would someone who wants answers to questions go? Where don't women belong? I think Doran's friends at court would know that Shae is dead, after all they know Tywin is dead. As you say George puts a lot of thought into names, do you really think that it's just a coincidence? Brave Danny Flint managed to pass as a boy for a while I think, and I could imagine one of the Sand Snakes seducing anyone who found out and keeping her secret that way. That interview is interesting though... I'm not denying there could be more to Shae that meets the eye.. About glamours, I think it's more to do with "men seeing what the expect to see", that's why Mance is told to wear Rattleshirt's bones. But I read this as prostitutes seeing people in different ways.

[@emiliocamachoerice6380]

Lots of people say Tyrion is such a good player yet he felt for the oldest trick on the book, I know it's very effective but even then

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

he isn't the first man that got played by a pretty face, and he won't be the last

[@emiliocamachoerice6380]

The Order of the Green Hand yeah but the worst thing is that he knew at least in the books in the show he might have become stupid

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

every time he started thinking straight, she'd get naked, and sense went out the window

[@emiliocamachoerice6380]

The Order of the Green Hand I mean most of my life I felt attracted to woman who didn't correspond me but I knew and tried but I never let them take advantage of me and the fact that she was a prostitute who didn't want to live would have made my get a sellsword ( preferably a eunuch) to kill her or make sure she's gonna leave before she sells me out, though I have a similar problem to stannis with regards to social skills and to Tyrion in social considerations I get overtures not from the woman I love but they just want sex and nothing more I'm a bit tired of that, I guess we all have tytos sickness in some way I just react the stannis way, that's why it's hard for me to believe the n+a=j doesn't happen from my personal experience, though to be fair Brandon much less girls like ashara can have a thousand brandons

[@iamthewizardwhoknocks2845]

Emilio Camacho Erice you only have enough blood to think with one head.

[@madalynnr9940]

I love watching you guys because you have a different perspective from every other asoif channel that essentially just rewords the same theories over and over again

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you so much

[@lordofbamfs-3941]

Shae, the little devil in the details we didn't expect, but felt her sting. Damn! Good detective work you 2!!

[@socalchago]

Your best articulated theory to date. I'm totally convinced.

[@herocarlisle]

Is it possible that Shae poisoned Tywin? The Tywin being poisoned is such a popular theory with some evidence for it. You establish she was a poisoner. Perhaps the fury of a grieving daughter said "To Hells with Uncle Doran's plan. I'm killing the Old Lion"?

[@ivanbluecool]

Symon says. Like the game. Making people do what she wants. Clever george. Clever

[@snakeguy8646]

ivanbluecool I too caught that, not when I read the book myself though, I read Symon as Siemon or something, I can't really explain why

[@ivanbluecool]

The Snake Empire George always changes the names way of spelling

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Yes he changes the spelling but, imo, he absolutely meant for that to be a play on “Simon Says,” it fits and is perfectly annoying, right in line with Shae.

[@ivanbluecool]

The Order of the Green Hand perfection as always

[@freealbemuth9871]

I wonder if the Alleras thing isn’t a double red herring. We are led to believe its Sarella, then to believe its not, and my first thought is to question whether Oberon might have fathered a set of twins.

[@raswartz]

Wow, mind blown! Great theory. BTW, do you think Tywin was f***ing Shae at camp before Bronn brought her to Tyrion? Could that be why he was so insistent that Tyrion not bring her to King's Landing?

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

it's definitely possible...there is no way to know either way, which is why we decided to present it like we did with two possibilities

[@cmschmidt]

This is such a great series. I don’t always agree, but your videos always make me think. I love your channel so much!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you Christine

[@skwisgaarskwigelf331]

I have watched the whole 40 minute video (I noticed the length after watching) and I swear it seemed to me like it had passed just 10 or 15 minutes. Damn I like your videos!

[@ciruk2774]

From Venezuela, bless your hearts you intelligent fucks.

[@berserkasaurusrex4233]

Alleras being Sarella spelled backwards seems a bit too blatant a clue for Martin. He usually isn't that nice to readers. I'd guess that Sarella and Alleras are actually twins, if Alleras isn't a total red herring. Though, I will say "pushing in where she doesn't belong" perfectly fits with a girl hiding at the Citadel, so I wouldn't use that line as evidence against Sarella=Alleras.

[@surtur9861]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, MORE!

[@BehindTheFrames]

You guys have done it again!! As usual I've gone from "What? No." to "Of course! It's so obvious!!" HOW DO YOU DO IT?!

[@bungalowfeuhler1541]

A lot of people seem to think Oberon poisoned Tywin with that stuff that makes it so you can’t poop. Maybe Shae had just poisoned him when Tyrion turned up.

[@LaurensCorner]

I adore that these videos are getting longer and longer :D

[@emresaladin2164]

Interesting theory as always, it's so fucking awesome when you post longer videos, keep up the great work, and also congratulations on 40 k subscribers you guys deserve every single one and a million more !!

[@InterestedAmerican]

I think that Sarella and Alleras are likely male/female twins, like Jaime and Cersi Lannister.

[@ez-xp6ff]

Damn you're modern Sherlock Homes

[@redsands2064]

I totally agree 💯

[@dratheart]

WOW, this was a MASTERPIECE, seriously. A couple bits were even over my head so I'll have to go back and re-watch this a couple times to absorb it all; that, however, is a task I will relish given the video is from The Greenhands :-) Thank you for this and keep up the AMAZING work!

[@tylerbarrett6652]

Is it possible that Sarella has a twin brother (like Jamie/Cersei)? I like this theory better than the Alleras is Sarella theory.

[@meridianmormont665]

Great work as always Milord and Lady Geeenhand. Love and Hugs ♥️💋♥️

[@joshualejeune83]

The only part of this I don't like is Oberyn breaking his daughter into a prostitute. I think the whole point of them mentioning two-three times that Summer Islanders view prostitution as prayer to show that it's not completely insane that Oberyn/Doran would use a Sand Snake daughter as a prostitute spy/assassin. Other than that it's a fascinating theory that I had not considered at all!

[@alanl.4252]

Wow I never considered shae to be sarella, but you definitely made a convincing argument. I hope George reveals Sarellas's true identity, would hate for it to be left unanswered.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thanks...I feel like he didn't set Sarella up to be a mystery character just to leave us all hanging

[@alanl.4252]

Is it possible for sarella to be alleras if she's using glamour? Many characters in the series have used it before, have you considered this a possibility?

[@ivanbluecool]

I beileve that all the point of view charcaters arw wrong in some way as we see it from thier point of view. Tyrion lies to himself that shae likes him. Sansa thought the world had knights and heroes and still beileves it. Cat is a mess. Jon knows nothing. And poor ned got beheaed by the women in his life messing everything up by telling peter and cersie.

[@ahlayastar8672]

Love it! Never would have occurred to me..but now that you point out the details it seems obvious! Well done!

[@Cojer52]

This might be your best video yet.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you

[@kahlbutomacfarland]

This may be my favorite of your theories yet (at least of the ones I first heard on your channel). Very solid. Btw, please don’t drop the ad break right on the outro, in enjoy the intro/outro way too much.

[@edi9892]

I always thought that she was of noble birth and that she stayed because she actually developped feelings. I never thought that she could be Oberyns little psychopath. Also, how could I miss that creepy remark hinting incest???

[@PBRStreetgang]

Okay, this just blew my mind. Longest video ever, so much to unpack....well done. I figured she was Littlefinger's plant, but obviously (now) it goes much deeper. Time to re-watch. PS - I know you've teased some info on Salladhor Saan; that will be another bombshell.

[@wagrhodes13]

This is perhaps the first theory of yours I wholeheartedly agree with. Great video. Very convincing.

[@SayianWizard]

You guys just keep giving me more and more reasons for why your my number one in ASOIAF theories. Definitely looking forward to the next video, keep it up!

[@charleswaldon8362]

This is going to fuck me over on sleep, but fuck it, work sucks and who wants to be completely present anyways. Anyway thanks for the actually interesting content, the asoiaf content has been really reaching bs show theorem lately on most channels of how the already derailed train of a show is going to crash in spectacular fashion to bring it back to glory. I appreciate what you guys do, and can't wait until we have another novel to work with.

[@molson9059]

Wow, amazing presentation and a awesome theory to boot. I’m loving this Duran series you two have put together.

[@DolphinRadio]

26:08 There seems to be a slight distinction between 'whore' and 'camp follower', noting that the latter often combed the battlefield to strip what they could from their fallen 'johns' if they died, nurse them if injured, and so on. I get the impression that GRRM thinks of a camp follower as a much more enterprising version of a whore, and as such, likely to be skilled in assisting battlefield companions in battlefield tasks. I would not consider this one part of the theory as valid evidence to the overall theory.

[@gregorytaplin3166]

WOW! Holy smokes. Fantastic video and the evidence you have poured through is astonishing. This theory is so crazy, but now it feels 100% true after watching your video. I can totally see it. Wow. George had me feeling intrigued and interested in Sarella, and I wanted her to show up in the books! Maybe he satisfied that without us knowing for the last 20 years. The only thing that annoys me with this, is that, Tyrion kills her. I know Tyrion even kills men twice his size on several occasions in the books, but a highly skilled and trained assassin who happens to be the Red Viper's daughter?? I feel like she would been able to put up more of a fight. I'll need to revisit that scene in the books because in my mind she just lets him strangle her...which is probably not accurate. Great video you guys!!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

I think he took her by surprise...he was acting relatively sweet towards her and she was half asleep, when all of a sudden, he grabbed the big gold chain that was already around her neck, and twisted it and essentially sat down...I'd imagine he weighs at least 80 to 100 lbs, and she's a tiny little thing, and if he pulled her flat down onto the bed onto her back, which is kind of how I imagine it, his weight would strangle her pretty easy and there wouldn't be anything she could really do about it...even if she was face down, he twisted it twice, and it was choking her, and she's a tiny little thing and all she could manage to do from her position was beat at his face a little...the language is really poetic sounding in that paragraph, but I think her hands were the warm ones that were beating away his tears...they weren't wiping away his tears...it sounds like she wasn't much of a fighter...I have a hard time imagining Tyene surviving that either, unless she had some fast acting poison on her fingers or something...poisoners aren't really fighters...their job requires subtlety...I think Sarella and Tyene are kind of mirror personality assassins...one uses innocence to get close, and the other uses sexiness to get close...their job is more about getting access, then killing their target in a manner that will allow them to get away...like faceless men

[@ferniek5000]

Good insights. I always had the feeling that Shay had been with Tywin by the way he warned Tyrion not to bring her along and (in the show) the way she ended up back with Tywin after the trial.

[@jamespinto1884]

I'm a bit shocked. I've read the main 5 books, twice, still I'm ultimately forced to agree with your analysis. If I could add my thoughts to it. I did notice that Book-Shae tried to manipulate Tyrion, while Show-Shae took a dagger and tried to kill him. In the books, Tyrion describes that Shae beats him in the face with her hands as he is strangling her; Which seems to imply that is NOT how a trained assassin dies - Specially because the very next thing Tyrion does is find his father's dagger on the bedside table. I believe the trained assassin you guys have described her to be would have managed to subdue a DWARF, at least just enough to get to that dagger, in order to save her life. There are daggers directly present in both Book and Show, which seems to match the style of our author to hide his hints. Alleras seems to stick very much to himself, and to have fallen on Maester Marwyn's graces pretty easily, which adds to the idea that he had some sort of special privilege, but so did Pate, the pig boy; Which brings doubt to the idea that Alleras could be a hidden person of importance. Furthermore, Alleras is skilled with the bow, which seems to follow the Sand Snakes pattern for each picking a weapon of choice - which I find absolutely impractical that each Sand Snake has picked a different weapons, as opposed to all being equally good with a small set of weapons, as we see with the Dothraki, which fits the general idea of regional tradition way better - but yeah, there are no references to Serella's weapon of choice in the books, witch does us the favor of not adding emphasis to the theory that Alleras is actually Serella; And all we're left with are Master Aemon's delusional riddles; Which could mean Alleras is a different person entirely. Thanks, GRRM! You give us more open ends than a van of hippies high on Molly. Sir and Lady Greenhand, Great Job untwisting that whore's lies. You're awesome! ;-)

[@jamespinto1884]

OH BTW, We should also observe if Tyrion notices any reaction from Oberyn when seeing Shae's testimony, and if we have any hints of Shae manifesting herself in any way about Oberyn's death.

[@princeprocrastinate6485]

To begin with I wasn't sure I was going to buy into this Shae theory but yet again you've made a good case and now I definitely think it's plausible that she is Sarella. Liking this particular series of videos more and more, good job as always.

[@macstacks2451]

You guys are my favorite asoiaf channel by far, I get so happy every time I see a new video from you. Keep up the great work!

[@PanthePanda13]

I always wondered how Baelish trusted the Tyrells and help them poison Joffrey UNLESS he had some assurance from Tywin. Also thinking Shae was always a spying on Tyrion for Tywin makes sense and Tywin probably planned to pose Tyrion as Joffrey's murder long before it actually happened. Knowing Tyrion would end up making a bad relationship with Joffrey. Tywin chose Mace Tyrell and Oberyn Martell as the judges, two houses who could've easily been accused of Joffrey's Murder, yet he chose them as the judges to create a sort of bond of trust with them. Thinking how Tywin used his own son's trial to strengthen the relationship with those two houses, it's just brutal. I always knew he didn't choose Tyrion as hand because "he was his son" but because he had this many plans in mind, He wanted to hit multiple targets with one arrow.

[@ladyszechuan8934]

Yesssss!!! I've been waiting all week for this!

[@Nohandleneeded112]

Lady and Sir, thank you!! Stoked for the new post!!! Made my night off.

[@Limpn00dle84]

This is a theory I definitely subscribe to, there are too many "Hmmm, that makes no sense, and Wow, Shea sure does remind me of a Sand 🐍" not to mention the fact I felt that she, even in the show seemed to have an alterior motive when it comes to the Tyrion and then all of a sudden with Tywin that night. Honestly I think Shea, Sarella rather, was getting ready to do away with Tywin right before Tyrion did away with both of them... Lol, coincidence? I think not!

[@9xprincess]

The only thing I don't buy is how evil Doran and Oberyn would have to be to create their daughter and niece into a prostitute. They seem to truly love their family. There is a difference in testing or pushing your children to far and sexually and physically tormenting them. I don't believe that, people who loved their sister, nephew and niece so much would not do that to their daughter/niece. However, Shae/Sarella's background and personality could account for her sexual prowess. As a summer islander she would be brought up in their sex based religion from a young age so has that sexual experience and a view of sex that would make her okay with posing as a camp follower. As someone who always butts in and insist on taking part, Sarella could have overhead part of her father's and uncle's plan and then demanded to be part of the game. Or neither Shae nor Arella are Sarella.

[@dionysius-germanicus_digna3740]

Suddenly all the fanfics where the Mattells are a very happy family are horrifying. I watched your video on Doran’s association with the Stranger and death and a number of the other Dornish theories but I thought Oberyn and Elia were unassuming pawns of Doran. I’d like to say I don’t believe Oberyn capable of “breaking” his own daughter, however given that he colludes with Littlefinger - who does “break” people - and that it makes no sense for Sarella to be in the Citadel… I have to agree. Grim.

[@johnathanwalker8395]

I get so excited every time I see a new video from you two. Thanks for doing what you do.

[@katec3406]

Can I just say how jealous I am of your asoiaf convos with your SO? I keep trying to get my husband to read the books so we can discuss these theories like this 😩 you guys make an awesome team and work great together! Also, your theories and this series in general takes up way too much of my life. I literally told my daughter the other that “courtesy is a ladies armor,” it was sound and true advice, too.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Hahaha! That’s so awesome! We always do it too.

[@arianndi8855]

It just comes to the point, that Sarella = Alleras and Sarella = Shae both are not convincing. Shae is an agent of Dorne and Alleras certainly is too and the name mirroring can't be an accident. Maybe the septa had twins. Shae was placed, to kill Tywin. I agree to that. The story with gems in a hairnet and the Queen of Thorns was made up by Littlefinger. I don't think anything went the way, he told Sansa. First the Queen of Thorns would never compromise herself by sharing her plans with Littlefinger. She has access to poison herself and it would be very stupid to involve so many people in a kings murder. Second, as Preston pointed out, careful reading shows that the poison was in Tyrions cake so Tyrion was the intended victim.

[@oclairdelune164]

Greetings Lord and Lady Greenhand I have recently been rethinking about your theory concerning Sarella Sand and there is a point where I don't completely agree with: the fact that Sarella could not have passed as a man in the Citadel. I personally don't think it completely impossible if Marwyn the Mage is a friend or even a kin to house Martell, knows her true identity and covers her. I'm not saying that she is Alleras, but that she could have been ( I, like you, think that spelling a name backwards is too lazy for George). I think however that Alleras could be related to Sarella, either as a twin or as a half-brother. He could be Oberyn's son no one knows about, a good asset for both Doran and him.

[@theophrastusbombastus1359]

Ermergerd! Another brilliant theory! I'm not a fan of the same "hum-drum" ones continuously circulated. I rather the ones that blow your mind. This is up there with "Arthur Dayne = Mance" and all the rest! I'll admit that there are some theories i have had inklings myself or sensed outright (whether i'm proven right or wrong) but this is a "Hold the Press" moment. Really loving the Doran series anyway just because he's so enigmatic and i've always felt he's even more scheming and Machiavelian than even Tywin - a man that causes Twin to tread carefully is a man to be feared indeed... But this has blown all that out of the water! Keep up the good work and honestly can't wait for the next in this series!

[@gerrytol]

Cunning Linguist I thought Dayne = rayder was pretty obvious in the books when rayder beat the shit out of Jon with a two handed sword. The rest of the Greenhand stuff is fun to consider: Stannis/manderly / Eddard etc./

[@theophrastusbombastus1359]

Yeah that was what really done it for me, it simply just leapt off the page at me!

[@gerrytol]

I think dayne uses telekinesis on his sword which is why it’s so fast

[@sensorium6]

Shae claiming that her father made her his whore doesn't necessarily mean that she had sex with him. He may have acted as her pimp. Then, if Oberyn is indeed her father, he could have used her to seduce/spy/assassinate targets of his choosing. So maybe Shae decided strike out on her own at some point, to play her very own... game? In any case, good video and some fascinating theories, I'm looking forward to the next one! :)

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

After these martell videos are you guys gonna make a " why Oberyn sucks" video becasue I I'm starting to see him in a different light after this

[@petrmaly9087]

This is a great channel, you are true fans, smart ones, not like most of others, who do it only for money and don't care about the story. Keep up the good job. Many thanks.

[@sabrinaisaac4827]

WOW! Your videos really make me think. They also show how good a writer George is.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

He’s amazing!

[@Samuel-lq7kp]

Shae = Sarella Sand is the most absurd theory I've ever listened, so much that trying to understand how it'd be possible made me create a new theory: not all of the sand snakes are true daughters of Oberyn. He selected those he thought were capable of serving and growing and put them under his wing. Obara is probably not his daughter and it goes on to imagination. His reason would be something as: 'trust family only' while he could guarantee bastard born daughters would 'obey'. Shae coming from Littlefinger is much more plausible. And it is basically 99% truth that Littlefinger's network is based on a 'whore network', as weird as its sounds, so there it goes. Second, Oberyn is too much frank, he only talks about 'justice', never lies about what he is and not even tries to cover his threat. He didn't create the Sand Snakes by abusing them because it does not fit his character. We already know he knows how to give orders and influence friends and foes.

[@realstateguzmandr248]

This is why I love your videos...is that you always provide in-depth analysis

[@p0sn]

I love these long videos.

[@snakeguy8646]

So, a VERY deadly Sand Snake, got choked out by a pissed off midget? Damn, I can't be the only one that sees some kind of irony there

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

we were actually talking about that the other night...we think she was a poisoner, not a fighter...the Sand Snakes are all deadly in different ways...Obara seems like the only real fighter in the bunch...Nym is apparently good with knives, but based on how many she is said to carry, I think she throws them...Tyene doesn't seem like she's a fighter though...she's pure assassin...Sarella being another assassin that has a different MO would make sense...one kills with innocence, while the other kills with the opposite of innocence, so no matter who you are after, you have the right girl for the job

[@snakeguy8646]

The Order of the Green Hand I would imagine she would be taught simple combat, due to her job of being so unsuspecting, might be she's attacked by some abusive drunkard, I'd imagine she'd know how to defend herself.

[@meganfinch711]

The Snake Empire He takes her off guard. He’s cupping her cheek. Being lovey to get and slips his hand onto the necklace and twists it. I’m sure he is pretty strong. She beats at him, but what else is she going to do while he’s twisting the chain about her neck?

[@davidcipolla4036]

Tom O'Sevens good point, though if “Shae” is fearless (especially in the forefront of a war/battle) it seems quite peculiar that she couldn’t defend herself even in a compromised scenario. I do somewhat agree that Tyrion did take her off guard & that she probably thought that Tyrion trying to kill her would be one of the last things he’d do. She should’ve thought differently considering Tyrion’s attitude/actions in the trial when he showed his essential hatred for her at that moment.

[@snakeguy8646]

Tom O'Sevens Fair point,

[@tulkas42o22]

Perfect timing, nice day about to smoke a cigar with some brandy. Lo and behold homeboy and m'lady uploaded a treat. Gracias, so. ...let's do this ;)

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Enjoy !!

[@play030]

You two are the best in the game.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Why, thank you!

[@SHARKVADERS]

GREEN HAND IS BACK!!!

[@skizzik121]

i never considered Shae as Sarella but there was always something that seemed off about it being Alleras, not sure what it was maybe it just too obvious to be G.R.R.M. This is an intriguing theory.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you

[@chocolateteapot697]

Recently found your channel, this is the first new upload since I started watching and the excitement it real

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thanks so much

[@kaerouse48]

Somehow I knew Shae would be the answer but I missed the connection to Oberyn. How do you think her sisters are going to react when they learn Tyrion strangled her in Tywin's bed?

[@made-line7627]

The last is a great question, because if she *were* Sarella, as another commenter said, shouldn't we have heard about this is in subsequent, post-Shae death Dornish POVs?

[@made-line7627]

And how will they react knowing that the man Oberyn *fought for* may have been the one to kill their sandy sister?

[@temptationofmemories]

@@made-line7627I don't think anyone knows that she's dead except for Cersei, whoever fetched her to Tywin's chambers, and Tyrion right. She has Shae's body removed from Tywin's bed without it being seen and dismembered, I think to be fed to the dogs or something, so Shae just vanished and I can't recall exactly if anyone in Kingslanding ever mentions Shae's absence but Cersei deals with it in her very first chapter in Feast, where she finds out Tywin is dead and Shae is in his bed also dead.

[@themonk8928]

38 minutes!? I’ve been waiting for this 😀

[@theresasteward1506]

Too bad she did not anticipate Tyrion's jealousy. That is strange she did not prevent Tyrion from killing her. If she was a sand snake wouldn't she been able to overpower him? Or perhaps Tywin had poisoned her so that Tyrion would be successful?

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

the Sand Snakes aren't like the ones in the show...the only real fighter in the bunch is Obara...Nym seems to use throwing knives, based on that being the only reason I can think of to carry 10 knives...Tyene definitely doesn't appear to be a fighter...she's a poisoner, and a terrifyingly good one...we think Sarella/Shae is the dark haired, dark eyed Tyene...they're assassins not fighters, and the fact that they are polar opposites (one being "otherworldly innocent" and the other being whatever the exact opposite of innocent is) means Oberyn has a girl for every job

[@allyriastark3508]

Do you think there is a possibility Sand Snakes hate Ellaria, the things Sarella/Shae says about Ellaria aren't nice at all maybe it's because this is the first time Oberyn settle down with someone? Or that Ellaria prevents her daughters to be hidden daggers since she tries to rise them more lady like?

[@ClintSprayberry]

Yup as soon as I saw that this video was pending, I knew it was going to be a good night! Once again, thanks guys! Your videos always get me to thinking 😁

[@BaltimoreKid1996]

I just got off work and saw this lovely video in my sub box! So happy to see another video

[@thecomet6276]

This is one of the absolute best Shae theories out there. Believe me when I say I’ve seen/read them all and this makes the most sense to me. I noticed a few thumbs down- pay haters no mind and keep doing that thing you guys do SO WELL. ❤️

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you so much...her character never made sense to us until this idea occurred to us

[@abdullahahmed551]

@TheOrderOfTheGreenHand do u think, then, that Alleras could possibly be a son of Oberyn? Maybe a twin of Sarella/Shae? Idk it seems highly likely that Alleras is a Dornish agent

[@Jockeylotforfun]

Wow, perfect timing! A bad day just became a whole lot better! I haven't even listened yet, but I know this is just what the Dr. should have ordered, I'm so thankful for both of you! Love QOT.🌹 😊

[@Thejericko17]

Yea I don't buy your Shae = Sarella theory. Nice idea though. Sarella could easily just be a lithe/less defined young women capable of fooling men who think they're the smartest people in the room. Also, Sarella, who asked alot of questions, would fit in perfectly at the Citadel. If she were one of Doran's game peices he wouldn't have called it "her game." Also, it's HIGHLY unlikely that any Sand Snake would die so easily.

[@atro-city]

Also, Alleras could be using a glamour, and she would have the knowledge and everything required to carry on such a disguise, considering she's in Marwyn's company. Glamours have been used by Melisandre (Mance's "burning", Lightbringer and possibly the shadow baby). The faceless men mention such glamours and a guy like Marwyn who has traveled the known world would definitely have knowledge of operating such things.

[@richardfitzpatrick9732]

I agree Shae = Sarella isn't true but the thing is Tyrion took the chain around her neck and strangled her no doesn't matter how good you are at fighting or whatever you wouldn't survive

[@georgefotiadis4869]

A+++ Video!!! So nice to hear a solid theory that I have not heard before.. you guys rock!

[@KingKongTube83]

Yes, finally the TOOTGH has come back to KZbin to dddrrrrooopppp a new video!! (The Rock Voice)

[@brucewaite3733]

I get more excited than sweet robin making some one fly when your videos drop.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Hahahaha ! Yes watery eyes and all!

[@brucewaite3733]

so after viewing....my god, the martells are 10x more batshit than a castle full of Whents.

[@thebovineavenger]

No shit

[@billhicks3835]

I'm waiting till its time to chill and sleep. Nothing better to put you in a place to drift off into a dream filled sleep. I'll assume this is awesome.