Game Theory: Persona's LOST Shadow... FOUND! (Persona 4)

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Persona 5 took critics and gamers by storm - but what about the rest of the series? Persona 4 was an AMAZING game and, looking back at it, I had one BIG QUESTION. Where is our Shadow? The main character that you play as is the only one to not have a Shadow - EXCEPT that they DO! Today Theorists, I am going to expose the BIGGEST SECRET of the Persona series - YOUR SHADOW!!
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[@GameTheory]

I'm sorry. I screwed up with this one. In a few facts and details, certainly, but also in ways that I didn't expect when writing it. And I don't want things to be taken the wrong way, so please, let me clarify: First, the intro was not intended to make fun of or belittle the fanbase of Persona in any way, and I'm sorry if it came across as mean spirited. Being protective of a franchise isn't a bad thing. I know from doing episodes on franchises like Dark Souls that there are just fanbases who are more amenable to theorizing than others and by choosing this episode, no matter what I would say, it would make some people angry (even if the facts had all been straight, which again, some weren't). I wrote that intro trying to play up the joke that it was a video no one would like, and in the process, I created a self-fulfilling prophesy that offended people and I'm sorry about that. It's never my intent to offend people. Maybe poke fun of in a joking way or call out for bad behavior (some other KZbinrs), but it's never my goal to offend a group of people for liking what they like -- I'm sorry if it came off that way. Second, I clearly didn't go deep enough or understand everything as clearly as I thought I did. As with the Phoenix Wright episode (another misjudgment on my part), I thought this game would function well-enough as a stand-alone title, but clearly there were added details in other games as well as supplemental content that I just didn't take into consideration. There were a few facts in this one that I either forgot to double check because I assumed I knew them off the top of my head (Elizabeth) or I could have explained better (Izanami). Again, I should have gone deeper, but time constraints and thinking I had covered all the necessary ground made me stop looking when clearly I should have kept digging. Third, sorry for being defensive. My life this past weekend was incredibly stressful and sad, so having a video receive a heavy backlash in the middle of it all was the last thing I needed, which resulted in me losing my head. Please remember that I receive hundreds of comments every day telling me how awful I am as a person and how I should die because I said X about Y character and that 99% of the time I let it run off me, but sometimes it just gets to you. This weekend was one of those times, so I ask you to forgive that brief saltiness. And lastly, regarding how I handle criticism, I want you to know that I'm listening. All the time. I read the comments, and yes, I don't respond a lot because when I have in the past, people have taken my responses the wrong way. Instead, I take your comments to heart and try to adjust the programming and scripts on the channel accordingly. Heck, this whole episode was in an effort to try and address some people who were tired of hearing about the same franchises over and over again. It's a bit of a Catch-22. My policy always was "Read the criticism and make changes to the series based on the feedback, but never directly call it out." That only prompted a lot of backlash of people saying "He doesn't acknowledge criticism." So, I've tried addressing negativity in a public way, but people criticized me for doing that too saying I was "bad at taking criticism" because I did that. It often feels like a lose-lose situation. Just know that I'm not writing this to be defensive, but to sincerely apologize for the mistakes in this video, the lack of clarity in some of the jokes, and to promise you that I will continue to work at getting better about all these issues. - MatPat

[@kimsunova237]

As long as you acknowledge your own mistakes and work actively to better yourself and go about it civilly thats all we can ask for, keep doing what you're doing and enjoy yourself.

[@kahunalegend4249]

well said matt pat

[@orangestorange7374]

Don't beat yourself up matpat. I'm a big fan and you have consistently good videos, just a few have been really bad in the years I've watched

[@KidYoureAHomo]

That'll do pig, that'll do.

[@rickalbuquerque595]

theories get desproven, that's completely normal

[@nolanhembree5565]

For as much as I love Persona, it seems that MatPat needs to reach out to the truth with this one.

[@azkera]

Yeah, he really seems off these days, maybe he should pursuit his true self again

[@haimirich7991]

At this rate it’s time to make history correct though

[@StargamerStarBro]

I'd also say his brain is reaching maximum capacity.

[@brau7152]

Was that a joke because it was kinda awful

[@madewithkinemaster2798]

BbBBbA6YYyYYYYBabYYyYbabBYYyYbabayyyyy

[@Edski10]

Yu doesn't have a shadow because A) he has nothing to hide B) his power was awoken by Izanami herself, and last but not least; C) Adachi functions as his narrative shadow

[@88phantasmagoria]

i’m gonna have to go with d. he’s the protagonist

[@Edski10]

@@88phantasmagoria That as well, yes

[@cking4869]

Well there's only one thing for it then. TEDDY IS ADACHI CONFIRMED

[@kirinbobarcana]

Well technically, Adachi isn't LITERALLY, Yu's shadow but rather a shadow representation of what could have happened to Narukami.

[@Juni_Bowman]

I am curious about one thing he said tho, he talked about namatame being able to use the tv, if izanami gave everyone those powers, why did namatame get it as well? I’m not a persona expert so I don’t really know

[@pookiegaming75]

Broke: Teddie is Yu’s shadow Woke: Teddie is lucifer

[@memperkasaya2078]

Is that a Fither reference?

[@pookiegaming75]

@@memperkasaya2078 mayhaps

[@thepillowhead2453]

Luke Hogan The god you worship is dead.

[@walker110701]

Now THAT'S a theory!

[@ouroborosereunetez4937]

LUCIFER IS YU'S SHADOW

[@Lumini-3]

I love how this whole "theory" falls apart the moment you realize that at the very end Izanami tells Yu that they gave him his powers, and because of that, he gets to skip all of the fighting your shadow thingie. Also Yu's arcana isn't The Fool, his inital Persona is, but since he has the power of the Wild Card, his arcana becomes whatever Persona's he's holding

[@wooble6222]

no it falls apart when you look at the pinned comment

[@rokia360]

I'm pretty sure he's a Wild Card because his Arcana is the Fool. Like in the Persona 1&2 every party members are technically a wild card but not really because some personas of other arcanas aren't compatible with them. But because his arcana is the Fool he's can use any persona he wants

[@waifuluver2727]

isn't Yu's Arcana the World at the end of the game?

[@wooble6222]

@@waifuluver2727 I don't know, I haven't finished it yet

[@deviledpotato17]

@@wooble6222 wow

[@joft7141]

Yu doesn't have a Shadow because he doesn't have anything to hide They said that in the game

[@rodnierrodriguez9087]

On the anime,he did face his shadow on the fight with margaret...

[@Sushi_Lover_707]

But also in the true ending Izanami, disguised as the gas station attendant, triggered his persona by a handshake. The same goes with Adachi and Namatame.

[@grey292]

Lisa Rittmeyer ahem you mean Nanako

[@Sushi_Lover_707]

@@grey292 What do you mean?

[@grey292]

Lisa Rittmeyer everyone knows Nanako is the killer

[@NZGammaFox]

> Says he researched the game a lot > Calls Margaret Elizabeth

[@gudetamas]

ikr

[@shikitohnoreal7199]

GammaFox By "researched",he means looking at some of the wiki articles for the game and then made a video on it.

[@Clandor]

Oh no, a simple mistake?! Therefore everything in the video has to be wrong(not saying it is or isn't but the fact that one little error debunks everything is ludicrous). Maybe one little typo, or a late night working the script or working on other things, or a simple slip of the mind. Its easy to make one simple mistake and not realize. You've never forgotten someone's name wrong or misremembered something in your life? Not saying everything should be forgiven but this is such a tiny little mistake that everyone is turning into a mountain is stupid.

[@FlameFlowerTheCat]

i have been thinking the same thing

[@fusionxaran]

I noticed it but I just found it funny because he got it wrong

[@NG-qr9so]

"Yu has no shadow" *Cries in Adachi*

[@mikeockhurts904]

Yeah he missed the entire point of the game.

[@MiguelAngel-go4ck]

Im not a very smart person but im pretty sure adachi is a real human

[@Max78000]

Miguel Ángel yeah but adachi is meant to represent Yu’s shadow

[@MiguelAngel-go4ck]

@@Max78000 i know that but is pretty weird he doesnt have a proper shadow

[@MiguelAngel-go4ck]

@Luka Nastic sounds pretty biased towards the protag idk

[@dequaviusfransico5134]

It’s funny to analyze the velvet rooms because P5 is a prison because he feels repressed P3 is a moving elevator because he’s never settled anywhere. P4 is a limo because he’s baller and everyone loves him.

[@Corridor3000]

Wasn't it a prison in p5 cus of yaldabaoth?

[@legromp2357]

No. Ren/ Akira's velvet room is still a prison in p5 royal's third semester after Yaldabaoth's defeat. And I doubt it was Atlus just being lazy. It's pretty shocking how detailed they were in making sure there weren't contradictions. For instance, Lavenza has her own lines for tutorial stuff if you never entered the velvet room to get Caroline and Justine's tutorial.@@Corridor3000

[@Kitsu_Worm]

@@Corridor3000 nah, even though he can tackle Velvet room. I think P5 representation of Prison is from Joker. because he just come fresh when every his surronding against him.

[@SuperButterBuns]

Welp, this was bound to happen sooner or later :p

[@shikitohnoreal7199]

SuperButterBuns Oh hey it's buns(also that sounds like you're dissapointed)

[@WhosManIsThis]

Help this man buns 😂

[@CR0WMURD3R]

SuperButterBuns helloooo! Huge fan of you and your videos! I wasn't expecting you to be here at all....heh.

[@be_epbop]

lol it's Super Butt Buns

[@alacapajohndaniel6282]

Superbutterbuns Shenpai!

[@DenjaX]

>Says Elizabeth >Shows Margaret *T R I G G E R E D*

[@sahajsin7847]

illidan193 he doesn't do editti g

[@Rotilisk]

SahajSin he's still talking about Persona 4. Which doesn't have Elizabeth.

[@jrock1174]

illidan193 i got triggered too lol

[@Dusty_B]

What about Marie?!!

[@Rotilisk]

Dusty Benjamin what about Marie? She's not the assitant; she was just there.

[@peytongolding7544]

1: the game says Yu has no shadow cuz he has nothing to hide, he represents the Fool arcana, which is basically a blank slate with infinite potential A *blank* slate There's nothing there How could he be hiding something when there's nothing there? 2: ur saying "Teddie's social link maxes out automatically so Teddie is Yu's shadow," but that logic would mean that Morgana would be Joker's shadow, which isn't even close to true

[@Rptor_]

Morgana is similar to Teddie in the regard they are both metaverse/shadow beings that guide, assist and help both Joker and Yu. They are not their shadows by any means. They share a goal and a bond and friendship but they are not shadows of said protagonists

[@Rptor_]

@Devon Nadeau should've researched then lmao

[@peytongolding7544]

@Devon Nadeau well he acted like he knew every little detail of the game inside and out when he obviously hasn't even picked it up or watched any videos on it

[@ignShnv]

Peyton Golding Akechi’s confidant also maxes out on its own in P5, so by MatPat’s logic, Akechi is also Joker’s shadow

[@Rptor_]

@@ignShnv And Sae and Igor lmao

[@daichinoire757]

"Yu doesn't have a Shadow" Yeah, this means that you forget the True Ending.

[@yoshikagekira5880]

or never played the game lmao

[@MaddyDoesStuff]

*cough* anime *cough* loneliness *cough* margaret fight *cough*

[@mikeockhurts904]

@@MaddyDoesStuff *cough* persona 4 arena *cough*

[@rajaisgreen7663]

Theory: mat never play p4

[@davidklassen5791]

@@mikeockhurts904 OKay, but in Arena it's a fake shadow. The anime one was legit.

[@hellhound4777]

At first i thought it was a good theory until i played the game.

[@hopechr]

lol

[@blackchase6732]

@SHARMIN BINTI KHAIRUL AMIN - its normal you just summon a persona by manipulating people into liking you new ones

[@evilnerd064]

Yeah me too

[@muhammedaljerari391]

SHARMIN BINTI KHAIRUL AMIN - use an emulator

[@yoshikagekira5880]

lmao same

[@meimeihughes]

Persona Q actually explains the lack of shadow thing. The main protagonist from each game is referred to as the wild card. They don't confront their shadow in the same way their allies do but instead use personas to find their place. Wild cards are able to use many personas and people around them can only use the one that their shadows turned into. However in persona Q, the 3 and 4 cast meet and 2 wild cards are in the same place at the same time so it changes how the meta world works and everyone is able to use 2 persona (one for each wild card). Your theory does explain a lot of things and Teddy is 100% connected to Yu the same way Moana in P5 is a spirit guide for Joker, but I feel you either excluded evidence that didn't fit the theory or there were parts of the franchise you didn't know about. Persona is a ridiculously layered franchise after all and every spin off game is cannon.

[@meimeihughes]

Dante De'Von the non conforming thing could also be used to explain the P5 cast. All of them gain their persona by rejecting the role society had placed on them and being reborn, with the exception of Futaba who embraced her past and transformed her shadow the same way the P4 cast did. We never see shadow versions of any of the other P5 characters but their personas call out to them just like Yu.

[@bruhhurb6059]

meimeihughes Great comment bruh, I hope MatPat sees it because it is really good.

[@patrickdees5256]

meimeihughes isn't that a spinoff though?

[@tacomeme429]

So saving the world through dance is canon?

[@romana3564]

they are all spinoffs of shin megami tensai so who cares

[@Thatphantomsaboteur]

With all this inaccurate info, I'm surprised he didn't think Mitsuo was the real killer

[@memperkasaya2078]

The people who liked this theory are unironically retarded

[@Wildcat12]

Tsmite Or they haven't played the games. If you play it you understand how wrong it is, but if you haven't all the information seems to line up. (I have, and yes this theory is retarded)

[@memperkasaya2078]

Wildcat121204 I just recently started getting into persona 4, and now can fully understand the retardation that went into this video. But even before that, when I had little to no info about p4, I still thought this theory was really dumb. One of the points is literally “one tarot card’s attributes are similar to another tarot card’s attributes, thus they must be the same”. If game theory fans actually paid any attention to what he’s actually saying, and not just listening to all the garbage memes and just believing everything he says is right, then this channel would improve. But so far, he continues to do stuff like this, where he acts defensive if he gets something wrong, but gloats before hand as if he solved some “unsolvable mystery”, even though this video is a prime example of not everything needs a theory. Plus, it’s pretty obvious he only made this video to capitalize on P5’s success, which is all Matthew really cares about now.

[@DaGalaxyBoy]

@@memperkasaya2078 did you not see the top comment from, oh idk, 2 YEARS AGO?! It was literally a apology comment about how he is sorry for attacking fans with a little joke, bringing up the wrong info, and not digging into the other games. He realized his mistake 2 years ago, so there is absolutely no point in calling this theory retarded right now when he realized that 2 years ago.

[@memperkasaya2078]

Galaxy boy just because he admitted the video was stupid, doesnt mean it’s no longer stupid. I still can criticize this video, whether or not he admitted it.

[@everythingyoucantouchandse6786]

ive just started watching this and i can already tell that its gonna be a trainwreck because he says at the start "oh if i get things wrong its the storys fault not mine pls dont hate on me"

[@abyssboi6377]

Yeah,you guessed right,it was a trainwreck. especially "yep story bad I'm right fanbase bad."

[@pedroamaral3599]

He was joking dude come on don’t be so hard

[@xronium]

@@pedroamaral3599 ok, but can he actually research or even play the full game?

[@risasdesktop]

@@xronium idk man, it's not like he had 2 channels that study many kinds of media with varying length of story, lore, or characters therefore making some of the team's facts definitely wrong as a result. idk

[@ventura535]

@@risasdesktop i mean, if you are going to talk about certain piece of media you need to actually know the main details of said piece of media

[@Mastermind6425]

Game Theory: Is Ryuji a phantom thief?

[@flayncel]

Mastermind6425 I think that's unlikely, he's too dumb to become a Phantom Thief. Dumb theory, try again

[@riderwolfseeker5066]

Game theory:Are catherine and persona 5 connected?

[@lionel7360]

Actually they are. Catherine was an art test for persona 5.

[@-Meric-]

No way, inconceivable. Everyone who has ever been in earshot of Ryuji talking agrees he is not a phantom thief

[@polkadi]

Probably not. If he was, Ryuji would tell us.

[@xstationo11]

1) We did see Yu's shadow, it was in the True Ending OVA 2) That's Margaret, not her little sister Elizabeth. 3) Marie is also in the Velvet room, in the Golden version.

[@Frankiedfkun]

For the Ova, it was for the anime's cannon and not for the game. I believe Matpat was only talking about game cannon. Even then if the theory was true, Teddy is still separate from Yu and the Shadow from the ova was what happen to Izanagi when Yu went mad during the episode.

[@yosukehanamura49]

Omg did he just say “Igor and his assistant Elizabeth” WHAT THE HELL

[@anidiot192]

@Gmoney 12 he's kinda smart in the game too, the 3 smart ones are yu, naoto, and yosuke (aka everyone outside the ramen shop when you think about who the killer is) and yosuke is part of the reason why you start investigating the tv world, and part of the reason why you constantly keep an eye on the midnight channel, he draws the connection between them and the murders, he even tests if he can go into the tv on his own too. The game just likes shitting on him

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

Jog Swanson to be fair in terms of school Yosuke is lazy and just dumb in class. But when he takes things seriously he’s actually smart. The entire investigation Yosuke was being pretty serious and was being smart at times. I feel like if Yosuke had a desire to be smart in school or have a plan in the future I feel like he wouldn’t be as overlooked as he is.

[@ccpower5653]

Yea yosuke is in my opinion the smartest person out of the whole in investigation team

[@mikeockhurts904]

@Gmoney 12 yosuke was never dumb, everyone always thought he was because hes always compared to ryuji an junpei, who are dumb.

[@thewingedcheetahwolf2615]

ITS YOSUKE OMggggg ma boi

[@Sportnugget]

I waited to watch this theory until after I had finished the game... FOR THIS?!

[@kefrika9950]

Same, when I first saw this I was planning to watch this after I am done with 4 golden. I play the 3 persona games (I know 1 and 2 exists, but I couldn't find it to play so I skipped it) And when I was done with 5 royal I went to watch this video only to discover it's wrong

[@Sportnugget]

@@kefrika9950 If you can manage to get your hands on a PSVita, (and/or a classic PSP, but I don't know for sure on that one) P1, P2IS, and P2EP are available on the PSN Store. However, I wouldn't begrudge anyone for simply emulating the PSOne games given how old they are and how Sony hasn't done their due diligence in preserving them for future interested parties

[@mohamedyasen2012]

Yo guys it’s called game theory not game fax lmaaoooooo

[@bshae1927]

@@mohamedyasen2012 But every theory has to have somwthing to base off of. He was given a gradient puzzle to solve with red and yellow colours. He just found a red puzzle piece and a yellow puzzle piece with no pattern, glued them and called it a day without looking at context or doing minimum research.

[@ofilosofoouumfumante5655]

@@kefrika9950 emulator and persona 2 is the best persona

[@wholesomescientist6674]

I hate to be that guy, but there are a lot of errors with this. Firstly: "his assistant Elizabeth"... Wrong game Mat, that was Persona 3. In Persona 4 the assistant is Margaret. Also, the "shadows" of Namatame and Adachi you talked about are actually the fragments of Izanami that she placed inside of them - Yu's fragment is Marie - another person who may enter the velvet room. They are not shadows, especially as we see Namatame's shadow AFTER we beat Kunino-sagiri. We never see or fight Adachi's shadow as he already has a persona when we fight him. Both Adachi and Yu awakened to their persona to survive in the TV world as a result of Izanami. (Namatame would have as well, but he never had the chance to do so). As a Persona can never return to being a shadow, it is impossible for their shadows to exist as long as the user as a Persona. (The only exception is with the robot Labrys - as a copy of her shadow was saved to her hard-drive.) Because of this, Teddie could not remain if he was Yu's shadow as he would become Izanagi. Finally - we DO see Yus shadow. In the final episode of the Anime, we see that Yu DOES have a shadow as he is hounded by it during the Margaret fight until he accepts it. The reason why Yu does not normally face his shadow is that Izanami awakened it for him. As soon as Izanami wanted him dead in the anime, he lost it and had to face his own shadow properly to get it back. I'm sorry Mat, but you really didn't do the research on this one. Granted, for a series so full of lore, it is easy to miss facts, and the hypothesis is rather interesting - but it is rather full of holes and you made several mistakes - both relevant and non relevant.

[@dairyubachanger]

like he said at the beginning, 10 years

[@JohnSmith-iz2le]

Yeah I definitely was thinking about all of this as I watched, nice coverage man.

[@wholesomescientist6674]

I hope you don't get the impression that i'm mad or anything - I thought it was a pretty decent episode. Just giving some feedback from a longtime fan of both persona and GT on some things that don't quite add up.

[@xaion64]

yeah same. there were a few things that annoyed me about this episode. mostly the comments on how the velvet room worked, and the fact that persona's are shadows. but other than that its a fine theory... a theory i dont partake in.. but its decent.

[@lordxan5778]

I don't know if this is correct, but I'm pretty sure personas can revert to shadows under special circumstances, such as when the antagonist of p4a wants to shadowify the personas to make them killing machines, or if you lose your pride as a living being

[@arinath4834]

7:42 *I think you wanted to say *Margaret*

[@Dae-Dae97]

ari nath you noticed also

[@obscurethings5047]

If it was Elizabeth the game would be a lot harder

[@loquendo47votaymas]

I almost closed the video after that, it was hard to keep watching

[@WhosManIsThis]

*megidolaon Oh boy

[@wildcard7449]

I legit cringed at that.

[@Logo1770]

Remember when matpat made theories on games he was interested in and not games that were popular at the moment?

[@Unholy_milk]

Oh I member

[@saynomore6958]

Yup. I unsubscribed cause he became a little too attached to fnaf and made theories that will get him clicks rather than make theories he's actually interested in making.

[@zildjian2381]

@@saynomore6958 i actually like fnaf theories but you dont need to hate on matpat because thats just a theory a game theory

[@saynomore6958]

@@zildjian2381 i don't hate him. I just don't enjoy his content anymore.

[@alfonsosorialara3288]

Bruh, persona 4 hasn't been popular in more than 10 years.

[@agent4517]

5:22 your tryna tell me Shrek is Yu’s shadow

[@virtuallynervous]

I just died. Thank you

[@musicalmoongirl5055]

Teddie is Shrek confirmed. BUT HEY!

[@crazyworldoutthere4379]

@@virtuallynervous RIP

[@talonzilla]

Persona 4 face your fears Persona 5 *BLEED YOUR FACE OFF UNTIL IT ARRIVES*

[@obludankeschun]

Persona 3 kurt cobain

[@placeholdernameless8569]

To be fair,At The Same time they’re taking off the masks,It’s Taking off the mask so they can realize their Fears,Which is the same because Joker Is Questioned If His Decision was A Mistake,A Part That He hasn’t shown off,A Part Of Himself He doesn’t want to face.

[@inktouhou]

What about 1 & 2

[@theinimitablejora522]

@@inktouhou What ABOUT 1 and 2?

[@inktouhou]

Coolest Idiot That ever memed yes because I actually don't know

[@TheKewlPerson]

Have you not played the game? It literally is said in the game that Izanami awakened Yu's persona by shaking his hand, thus he never had to face his shadow.

[@tobycoolboy2908]

TheKewlPerson then explain why adachi and Namatame both have shadows and they both got the power from Izanami

[@Likaboss480]

@@tobycoolboy2908 Well, as matpat explained, shadows are raw and untamed, while personas are tamed. With adachi and namatame both clearly not being mentally 100%, especially with adachi feeding into his homicidal tendencies, we can assume that Yu, being a blank slate, dosnt have anything to hide AND no conflicts going on, he was able to get his persona. What need is there for a shadow if the person in question is already in touch with their true selves? While there is no evidence stating he does not have a self conflict, there is no evidence that shows he ever did, other than the fact that he never had to face his shadow

[@fffx2]

Have you watched the video? MatPat addresses this exact argument.

[@haruhisuzumiya6650]

That sounds like bullshit writing At least with joker you signed the contract terms of services at the beginning of the game. The contract is sealed...

[@haruhisuzumiya6650]

@Ren Amamiya so what you're saying is that atlus screwed up and attempted to fix retroactively.

[@youngmastereraqueez9558]

Something tells me this guy never played P4 at all... That or he never even played beyond December 3rd. Though I'm pretty sure it's the former.

[@kanenums8888]

YoungMasterEraqueez he just skimmed through a wiki article

[@nervousblanket3020]

Did you not see his comment that he pinned He literally said that he messed the theory up

[@kanenums8888]

Sleazball Romin He started back peddling because people were calling him out on his BS. Like he always does may I remind you. Dudes a clown.

[@DaGalaxyBoy]

@@kanenums8888 so he's a clown because he got a fictional story incorrect? How stupid are you?

[@kanenums8888]

Galaxy boy yes he is a clown 100%. He made a theory and didn’t even know the story. Accuracy counts.

[@Ragnarok30SP]

Guess I'm a defensive hater for saying this. This entire video shows that mat hasn't even touched a persona game

[@minttshake]

yes. he got some details wrong. yes, you can get mad at him for doing so. but can you justify getting publicly angry over a theory on a video game? I don't think so.

[@Ragnarok30SP]

@@minttshake and you're making a lot of assumptions, who says I'm mad, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed

[@bubblewaffle1558]

@@minttshake he's right you know

[@minttshake]

@@bubblewaffle1558 not saying that he's wrong, just saying that what he said, while correct, is kinda rude.

[@internetual7350]

@@minttshake How is he rude? If anything MatPat was rude to the Persona fandom

[@vaarl3386]

how tf is ameno sagiri Adachis shadow XD ameno is a smller part of a fragmented god who is controlling the fog and making sure the plan to envelop the human world in fog works thats why when you initially beat adachi ameno takes over to ensure the plan woks.

[@gegeji6442]

7:43 that is not Elizabeth. In Persona 4 the assistant of Igor is Margaret.

[@daisysmartheart1947]

Random Guy THANK YOU!

[@nworder4life]

To be fair, they are sisters.

[@thebestasianfood8313]

Aren’t they technically sisters?

[@sdft1138]

*assistant. Sorry I love grammar.

[@gegeji6442]

Santi Diaz no problem thanks for pointing out

[@aech7150]

Lmao if he's looking for Yu's Shadow, I'm surprised he didn't even look toward Magatsu-Izanagi

[@vandairgaming481]

Actually haha

[@shelbybayer200]

The anime shows Yu's Shadow

[@heyweykrutcorbin5005]

he probably didn't get to that part of the story lmao

[@XieronDraxin]

I know this has been up for 2 years now........but I just gotta say, in addition to the other inaccuracies, having to gain the traits of the Star to progress to the World means nothing. The whole POINT of the tarot is that you start as the Fool, traverse through all the major arcana, and come out the other end as the World. Likewise, the protag has to meet and learn from all of the people embodying the arcana in the game and that's why being close to them makes him stronger. Yes, you can beat the game with just Teddie, but that doesn't make him more essential. The game heavily penalizes you for this and while you make it to the end, you are also the weakest version of yourself. Because you only have the one arcana. And links that are required to go up are nothing NEW. They are in 3 and 5 too and in both games, there are more than one of them. In addition to the other comments, just..........please play the game you are making a theory about. It's kinda the bare minimum effort. A lesson that, looking at your videos from this point, you learned.

[@McCaroni_Sup]

I am thou,Thou art I..... Thou hast uncovered a new theory... It shall become the wings of inaccuracy that breaketh thy chains of rationality. With the birth of the MatPat Persona, I have obtained the winds of a bad theory that shall lead to criticism and backlash.

[@Sushi_Lover_707]

10 out of 10!

[@maileakui4035]

This was fantastic

[@gachalibra9243]

McCaroni Sup I’m so happy!

[@ViVi-qj3ey]

Yas

[@jayboulware9900]

I am thou, Thou art I, Thou hast turned an idea into a theory Thy theory shall become the wings of insanity, and break the common sense of thy mind Thou hast awakened to the ultimate secret of the fool, granting thee infinite idiocy

[@playlistdj]

And just for you persona and anime fans: Persona 5 the animation was released yesterday on crunchyroll (^o^)

[@mr.t107]

Playlist DJ it was?!!

[@sariarosegold]

hey thanks! i know someone who is gonna be very happy to find that out

[@TheSithai]

And hulu

[@arielmartinez94]

Really?,thanks for the head Up

[@MoaiedE]

Playlist DJ Ik it was lit

[@Raivon]

"A fanbase that I have no doubt is sure to hate whatever I say in this episode _regardless of how much research I do_ " And _there's_ the irony. HOO BOY

[@bryanttan9589]

Then why even bother to make this.....im pretty sure he didnt even touch the game based on what hes saying -_-

[@Nothingnew917]

Already at 12K dislikes

[@robertogaleano3152]

Fanbase is literally: *You hooed your last boy*

[@davidgn40]

With more people getting into Persona now, this video is gonna get a lot more hate.

[@Naotosbiggestfan24]

And SMT. Don't forget Shin Megami Tensi.

[@davidgn40]

@@Naotosbiggestfan24 with SMT V and Nocturne remaster coming out soon, you're right.

[@ovina6331]

as it should

[@akhtarjaviero3627]

this theory is not even so bad it's good, it's just downright bad, kinda dissapointed on matpat rushing out a half baked theory which is even debunk in the game itself, he should've took a more scientific side on this, just like how his videos used to be. Like idk maybe explain the inspiration of the Shadows which are based on Jungian Mythology, or the science of the metaverse irl.

[@davidgn40]

@@akhtarjaviero3627 yeah those would be better options. I'm quite sure Wisecrack talked about Jungian psychology and how it's utilized in Persona.

[@mysty3400]

Wait MatPat is covering PERSONA???? Oh lord, good luck dude, u better hope the people have mercy

[@prince_sylex]

Mercy is for the weak...

[@PaleVoyager]

Yeah, he's wrong. Video was still fun, though.

[@mysty3400]

Brandon Bevill lol i hope im not the target 🎯 ⚔️

[@mysty3400]

Mauro Richard Kousek agrreeed

[@mysty3400]

PaleVoyager it really was

[@championkasey3969]

Matpat I would hate to correct you but you showed a picture of Margaret and said it was Elizabeth, Elizabeth is the Velvet Room attendant from Persona 3 Margaret was in charge of the room in Persona 4

[@zerwardzelaiine7622]

Champion Kasey lol, later on he did just refer to them as Igor's assistant so I guess he sorta corrected himself? :/

[@minimonkeymasher8888]

Thanks for not being a total dock about like the guy above you

[@LordBloodySoul]

I mix them all up, too. Mostly because I play too much of the Shin Megami Tensei Games. And it got worse since I played Persona Q XD

[@spiritninja5757]

LordBloodySoul they seriously aren’t alike

[@jhonatanpatron4857]

Me: "click the video" -14:30-- minutes later- Me: "It's time for all-out attack!"

[@joeyshadeslayer9792]

Time for some brutality!!

[@o-o4436]

Joey Shadeslayer I’ve been waiting for this

[@veo1053]

*Get back here you son of a*

[@Absane8]

Bear pile on the enemy !

[@war_muffin363]

Ah Ha! Is this our chance!?

[@mazinlaw132]

"No matter how much reaserch I do" Yeah... What research?

[@MoleBradRy]

SPOILERS Although you watched the video so... If you go off the Anime. Yu basically does have a shadow and faces it at the very end. (Not sure about Golden). During the anime it's hinted that Yu does has his own problems. Basically he doesn't want to be alone. It showed that problem in the anime during the fight with Shadow Mitsuo. Yu got trapped in a nightmare and couldn't summon his Persona cause he had no bonds. Till his friends snapped him out of it. Later at the end of the anime the same problem flares up again but this time he's trapped in the TV world repeating the same scene with all his friends over and over again till Margaret shows up to snap him out of his trance. Yu faces his shadow who basically says that he didn't care what it took he just didn't want to be alone anymore. But you could write off the anime as "We had to give the blank slate character some personality and conflict." Teddie essentially was in the Velvet room cause Yu subconsciously called out to him when he went missing. After Teddie had his crisis and dealt with it, he realized that he doesn't belong there. Then Igor pops up and says "Shadows...have no place here." Teddie also states that he's been in the TV World for a long time. Even to the point that he remembers what it truly looks like. Persona and Shadow are 2 sides of the same coin as pretty much established in the game. So Teddie can't be Yu's Shadow. Cause he got Izanagi. To further this if you wanna consider Persona 4 Arena cannon. Hi-No Kagutsuchi was basically trying to make everyone's Persona's back into shadows again for his own purposes. The shape of the Velvet Room is a representation of the person's heart. Minato's was an Elevator which can be considered his journey through Tarturus with SEES or his journey to find the answer to life. Ren/Akira's is a prison to represent that his life is basically a prison thanks to the rules of society. Yu's is a car driving through the fog to represent that he's journeying but doesn't know the destination.

[@SirPhones]

Do not forget that Marie also entered the velvet room, which was neither an assistant of the nose, nor "Yu's shadow"

[@gamma_draconis9905]

Now this comment, Brad_Ry, is a very good one because for 1, you don't hate on matpat, and 2, you present what you know as fact in a calmly and orderly fashion. Good job. :)

[@mikeh1617]

I'd further like to add that, P3 did sign a contract for the velvet room through Pharos. Additionally its explained through 'the answer', shadows are projected shadows not inverted of people's facet (why their shadows transforms into their persona in p4's case). Along that shadows could rewind/stop time, manipulate space(tartarus and basement) and project their subconcious (Ouroborus(the manifested persona of all people's shadow wanting the world to end (even the characters admit they might've added into it)) and their shadows culminating into a Minato and trapping themselves in the time loop for not being able to move forward after he became the great seal (which I'm understanding is not Messiah being final judgement and all).

[@manticorephantom2377]

Unknown550 makoto is his name in the manga, minato is his actual name, and he is, if I may be so bold, the Best Boy

[@Philious]

The dude from P3 has several names thanks to P3 having so many adaptations. Makoto Yuki and Minato Arisato are both correct, as is Sakuya Shiomi (from the musical).

[@Amber-of2oc]

When I heard that 2008 was a decade ago, I thought “that can’t be possible”, than I thought about it and my life has changed a lot

[@RobertMcBride-is-cool]

I'm so two thousand and eight, you're so two thousand and late.

[@topogigio2412]

*you're

[@ruikirisame1744]

it's a sign that you woke up, got up and got out there

[@RobertMcBride-is-cool]

Fixed. I am usually good about avoiding that stuff.

[@gladiuslupus]

A decade is 10 years, century is 100, millenium is 1,000. It doesn't surprise me. Though a decade makes us all feel just a tinybit old. *nervous laugh*

[@brendenmarin6426]

He's practically casting rakukaja (uping his defense) at the start of the video. 😂

[@Naotosbiggestfan24]

But it failed

[@makoto-kun5129]

@@Naotosbiggestfan24 miserably 🤣

[@agent3689]

Nah man, he tried the Heat Riser, but it still failed

[@Ralph-qj7bc]

bold of you to assume that I stopped playing persona 4

[@renren2946]

Bold of you to assume I've plaued persona 4 I really want to

[@PocketPhox]

@@renren2946 Just emulate it my guy! Or if you have a PS Vita, buy Persona 4 Golden. It's literally just P4 but better graphics and more content. Some stuff was even improved!

[@ucielsan]

And If you have a PS3 you can play P3 FES and original P4.

[@IceBlueLugia]

It’s on pc now

[@dancp8914]

GAME THEORY: IS JOKER A PLANE

[@Natsu2G]

Or is he a bird? And that is the reason morgana likes him so much :p

[@inktouhou]

Is he plague doctor?

[@ZBreezee-nb2rl]

Game Theory: Is Morgana a dog

[@protector9122]

You fools Joker is a chair

[@zea5946]

Bill Lamprakos oh my god is that a reference to what i think it is

[@koncentra5767]

1) When Izanami gifted Yu and Adachi their Personas, they both received a variant of Izanagi. Namatame did not get a Persona; only the ability to travel into the TV world (which makes him different from Adachi and Yu and thus should not be grouped with them). 2) Marie is also able to enter the Velvet Room 3) Igor's assistant in Persona 4 is called Margaret, not Elizabeth (just a minor thing) 4) When you start the path to complete the true ending you get the new social link: Judgement (The Seekers of Truth). This social link, along with Teddie's, is also story based and impossible not to max out (assuming you continue to follow the path to the true ending). 5) Going by the logic of Yu's shadow becoming a separate entity, the same should have happened to Adachi's shadow, which it clearly didn't. 6) The shadows turn into the Personas, meaning that Izanagi is Yu's shadow. You can't have a Persona and a shadow at the same time. Yu's shadow turned into his Persona because it got forced that way by Izanami. The only way Yu is different from the other characters is because he never actually had to confront his shadow; it just sort of happened on its own. Please correct me on anything I got wrong.

[@TheRareOn]

Cameron Owen James nah fam, couldn't of said it better myself.

[@D.Meanie]

Just an addition I think in the late part or at the end of the game Teddie said that he exist for a long time in the TV realm

[@Zero121090X]

Continuing off of this, even though Izanami basically robbed Yu of facing his shadow, in a certain part of the anime, the aspects of his shadow become apparent: his need for socialization. Deep down, Yu believes he's nothing without friends, and so would try to do anything he can to keep some. That part of Yu's psyche almost reverts Izanagi back into a shadow, but then Margaret beats the crap out of him to snap out of it.

[@joethorpe109]

This is a mad theory, and I haven't really thought it through, but wouldn't it make more sense for Teddie to be Adachi's shadow? After all, one might think that it is Adachi who would be suppressing kind and gentle thoughts, and not P4s protagonist.

[@QCCaster]

Joe Thorpe. That makes a lot of sense.

[@daxota_6750]

MatPat: "I wonder how many miles a gallon morgana gets?"

[@SoggyWetCheese]

For once, and probably only time, I seriously doubt MatPat on this. He obviously didn't play the actual game, probably just read a very short summary :/

[@rajaisgreen7663]

Agree the most obvious is the name mistake

[@LilKardboard]

@@rajaisgreen7663 I mean I can see him making a tongue slip by accident, him calling Margaret "Elizabeth" was the least problematic thing about this theory video, although I gotta respect him for apologizing in his pinned comment [though one could argue he only did this as a backpedal to avoid more backlash it's still better than not apologizing or correcting himself at all]

[@katiekatdragon]

I think he did play the og p4, not p4g though, and also played p3 and didn't refresh before this theory, since I can't see any other reason to call Margret Elizabeth since if he read an article it would say Margret. So after 10 years he thought of the attendents name thinking he would remember and mixed up the attendents names. PS if you haven't played p3 the attendent in that game is named Elizabeth.

[@ofilosofoouumfumante5655]

@@katiekatdragon you wouldn't forget the major plot point of a game if you think and make a research like he said

[@arnikful]

7:43 That's Margaret not Elizabeth

[@Fae2705]

ikr!

[@mikeits13]

Proof Matpat doesn't actually play some of the games he discusses or just reads a wiki.

[@RobertMcBride-is-cool]

Do you have the time to cover all of the material fatefully in a week or two while also having a social life? He just mixes up faces from time to time, and misses a detail or two.

[@venomoussmiley6216]

As a Personna fan. I wanted to say that. I do not hate you for this. It's just a theory afterall.

[@mes0gots0its]

A GAME THEORY!

[@kirbymkw4047]

well guys, this was not a reach out to the truth moment.

[@TheCobraKing209]

I think the entire “where is Yu’s shadow?” segment can be boiled down to (in my mind) Yu has already accepted his shadow, the most hated part of himself, before ever meeting it not in the TV world but subconsciously.

[@davidklassen5791]

The reason Yu doesn't have a shadow (IN THE GAME) is because of the fact that he's a silent protagonist, a self insert of the player. The game doesn't know about the player's insecurities, so it can't accurately portray the game version of Narukami. Now, with the anime, Yu has an actual character. Therefore, he can have a shadow, which he does face (sure, he already has his persona at the point, but facing his shadow unlocked his full potential).

[@kirinbobarcana]

Well, in the anime, it shows that he does have a shadow self, but I think that was created specifically for the Margaret fight so that Yu could confront his fears of leaving inaba.

[@Kunobi]

You forgot Marie can enter the velvet room also

[@jimmykrabklaw1216]

In the series party members have been able to enter the velvet room. The whole party goes in P2 and P5.

[@baronsionis6855]

And Persona 3 FES in The Answer.

[@ambercarbuncle1440p]

and SEES in PQ

[@Counterbusters]

@@ambercarbuncle1440p and literally everybody in Persona Q2

[@c0ppets_]

Jimmy KrabKlaw yeah he didn’t show that p5’s party can enter it.

[@AwkwardThursdays]

No offense but there's loads of misinformation in this. Perhaps the biggest one being Ameno-sagiri is not Adachi's shadow. Adachi didn't have a shadow, and it's confirmed in game that Adachi and Yu are counterparts (both awakened to Izanagi). I think it's an interesting idea, Teddie being Yu's shadow, especially with his affection towards Nanako. However, I'm not sure the evidence in game really supports it.

[@pisic9022]

AwkwardThursdays stfu

[@EasilyBoredGamer]

(Politely corrects misinformation) Someone else: "STFU" thanks internet

[@spagboii4546]

darkhorse0404 There are differences to fans and fanboys. Fans provide constructive criticism. Fanboys give "support" by releasing hate to fans and never acknowledge that everyone makes mistakes

[@tamagukimicrowave1333]

Ima politely reject what you say with a simple "ITS JUST A THEORY"

[@KayokoSudou]

I am Paradoxical But even if it's a theory, it should be a *correct* theory. And it should have enough evidence to back it up from the game

[@eimii5025]

Instead of doing "so much research", why didn't you just play the game...?

[@EdxSarxNatxChoc]

Cuz' playing games are hard. Look at DSP, he couldn't beat the final boss of P3 on EASY MODE. His argument? Boss was "cheating" & "too hard".

[@allergyjelly]

EdxSarxNatxChoc Still doesn’t really save this theory from being just, REALLY bad.

[@borringguy1006]

Its already an 80 hour games and hes got to put these things out every week or so

[@justgrey3114]

jesus christ what will happen if he tries to play nocturne, the guy would break his ps2

[@nowtmrb3337]

@@EdxSarxNatxChoc Final boss too hard? Either he has a bad persona or hes too low level cause the only times I died in easy mode is because I didnt grind to much.

[@VentusDoesStuff_Legacy]

the fact he called margaret elizabeth had me laughing. and the anime explains pretty much all of this in a different way, and you should watch it to the end, matpat! im not spoiling though, its a damn good anime and game.

[@narwhallsnarwhal8637]

Igor and his asistant ELIZABETH

[@Ghost-np6ww]

What about Justine

[@pinkiepie2196]

Mat's mistaken.... that was clearly Theodore sitting next to Igor in Persona 4.

[@haruhisuzumiya6650]

@@galaxisoda in persona 3 if I'm not mistaken.

[@estheriooo]

Pinkie Pie yup defiently

[@xecillmaze4740]

How dare you. THAT'S CLEARLY ADACHI

[@nickbotful]

>does a theory on p4 >calls margaret elizabeth

[@wekillall]

This.

[@kevin2714]

nickbotful Beat me to it.

[@lowhp_comic]

The moment I heard that, his analysis meant nothing haha

[@AxelScratchy]

I would chalk this up to an honest mistake, but that’s just me.

[@submariNervous]

I often wish that I, too, could forget Marie from Golden.

[@insertname8721]

Next Theory: Is Stupei Iori Ace Defective a Velvet Room attendant

[@Marshadow01]

8:08 hold up, we’ve seen another person in the velvet room in p4, being Margaret’s(igors assistant) assistant. And yes, the game did pull the “the assistant has an assistant” game trope

[@yoshikagekira5880]

in p4g

[@anidiot192]

And yaldaboath forced his way into the velvet room in 5, showing it is possible to do so, and igor constantly summons the protagonist into the velvet room (from 3 on) and igor states the fact tha yu summoned teddie into the velvet room

[@davidklassen5791]

@@yoshikagekira5880 and Mat talked about P4G's true ending, so it's valid to mention Marie.

[@jollow250]

“Why the fork did you chose this game to do a theory on?” I know why Because it is by far easier then Part 3 of Final FNaF theory

[@cathl4953]

jollow250 Wait there's gonna be a part 3 on that theory?

[@shebehere2452]

jollow250 DAMN ROASTED

[@mrakex2475]

Lol

[@nope4-0-4]

More likely he's just doing it because Persona 5 is getting an anime adaptation this spring and raking in the opportunity

[@rogueslasher7899]

TheToastLegacy While I agree that FNaF is dead, insulting it and calling it's theories dumb is overdoing it specially since FNaF6 IS a good game. At least better than 4 and SL and maybe ppl want lore on the last game that was decent.

[@minakorocket]

I've been a Persona/SMT fan for over 20 years. I've never taken your theories to be facts and just enjoyed listening to a sort of "what if" while looking at a game from a different perspective. It's all in good fun. The way you opened the episode meant a lot to me as a fan. Was a fun theory and while of course there were mistakes I just hope that people who haven't given Persona or SMT a chance will maybe be somewhat interested.

[@Poedoco]

Let it be niche...

[@fRom22456]

Extremely niche

[@sorakh4119]

Fun theory? It was a horrible one lol

[@Hyuinn]

With the release of Persona 4 Golden for the PC I've decided to revisit this theory, and I found out a bit of controversy while searching for it... Re-watched the video, watched those response/reaction videos as well, and since I have played the game to a certain point I've came to my own conclusion. From your pinned comment i believe you did the same at some point, and probably already fixed that (since this video is 2 years old) but I'll try to add something constructive because i love your content and follow all of your 4 channels (soon to be 5). The point of the theories is to generate discussion, and not to be the "truth" that shall never be questioned. Poking holes on your theories, if any, is engaging as much as expanding on it, so you should not be afraid of that. It's by poking holes that we adjust and try to find a better, more consistent theory about a topic. That being said, I believe you should tone down your internet "Persona" a little bit, as he is a lot confident on it's research and claims it's theories to be truth (which they can be not) and sound very condescending. Best case scenario it comes as misinformation (which is something I believe you're proudly against of) and worst case it's just offensive to those who spend hundreds if not thousands of hours in a given franchise. I would like to see in the future a more humble Matpat that asks if there's something wrong with his theories, or if he's missing some detail, idk; keeping the community engaged while also giving an opportunity for a reply to said theory which keeps new content going. It's just a shame that the only franchise you're willing to make a second or third video trying to create a better theory is FNAF, instead of those lore-packet games that more people like and are invested into like Zelda or Persona. I hope this gets to your eyes and you all stay safe, Matthew & theorist team.

[@JWuKong95]

It's a shame how this turned out. I would definitely watch more game theory episodes on persona if all the required and relevant research was done. I'm fairly new to persona, but did a lot of my own research. With that knowledge in hand, watching this theory didn't make a whole lot of sense. And complaining about the fandom potentially having issues with the video cause they're overly defensive feels kinda weird. Like, people are gonna react in negative ways if you get something wrong about something they like.

[@mak1033]

Broke: teddies Yu’s shadow Woke: Maries Yu’s shadow

[@theczman007]

Nanako is Yu’s shadow

[@thepillowhead2453]

Mak the fox is Yu’s shadow.

[@major_havok7854]

Funky Student is Yu's Shadow

[@joshuadelministro2142]

Theory BUSTED! and here's why: 1) Plot in game! 2) In the anime, that I have watched, Yu gains his persona by shaking the Finale Boss' hand. 3) Still in the anime, Yu meets his Shadow while fighting Margaret

[@leresidentdevelours1859]

While the anime is very accurate to the game, I despise that you solely use that as your base of evidence and act hoity toity with it, if you've read the pinned comment, MatPat has already admitted that the theory is disproven. Learn your place.

[@DemonzDay]

@@leresidentdevelours1859 to be fair what other place can he say this lmao it's the comment section, besides look at his first point, in game, nothing to do with the anime. Still a lot of people consider the anime canon, there are many other things in Persona that disproves the theory, for the most part you only need to have played persona 4, you can't use all the messy lore between games as an excuse. MatPat, in the pinned comment doesn't point out the main flaws with it, he just talks about small things without telling me ways that it has been disproven, which is exactly what this comment did. Don't get annoyed at the guy for commenting this. They're good points, if you want more information on persona then feel free to ask because there's so many ways not mentioned by MatPat to disprove the theory :D

[@d2g2]

The anime is a different canon than the games but your point still stands

[@yoshikagekira5880]

#3 really doesnt make much sense and is kinda contradictory to #2 but whatever

[@deathrod123]

I will disprove this right now 2: Yes, Izanami gives Yu a persona, but this does not mean that he doesn't have a shadow 3: The anime is not canon

[@doczombiex]

Game Theory: Is Morgana Yaldabaoth?

[@saito1001]

a cup? that's worse than being a cat

[@aaron75fy]

shraffe naquiddin a cup that has no base (unless you include the pointy bit)

[@currentlybeingremade9706]

DocZombieX no. He was created by the hope of people by the true Igor

[@radishlordrak]

A friendly suggestion: If you do go at the franchise again, read up on Jungian psychoanalytics. It helps fill a lot of what many see as contradictions.

[@adamb4140]

8:01 Marie: Am I a joke to you?

[@anidiot192]

Matpat: yes

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

Mat was talking about Persona 4 not Golden

[@anidiot192]

@@Alibaba-id1cs except he was talking about golden, he talks about the true ending (y'know, that ending that's EXCLUSIVE TO P4G?) In the video.

[@adamb4140]

@@anidiot192 facts

[@jondoe7036]

@@Alibaba-id1cs Evidently. Though what is the screencap at 12:05 doing in this video then? (to unacquainted, that picture and the looks main cast sport in it aren't in the vanilla version of the game and the girl with glasses in the middle of the picture is Marie, a P4 Golden exclusive character) Also given there's an updated version of the game out there, you'd have to atleast briefly address its existence and touch on how it differs from the original version, to not appear just plain uninformed. As is I'm hard pressed to regard these things as anything but further evidence how shoddily made this theory was.

[@arrogantwanderer5248]

Namatame and Adachi didn't have shadows their "shadows" were Kunino Sagiri and Ameno Sagiri who were forms of Izanami who gave them the gift to travel into the tv

[@sailorpaulino]

V6Whiterewolf we see the talking to their shadows, with the gold glowing eyes and all. They fuse with the gods, but they were still shadows before.

[@arrogantwanderer5248]

Yes but they were being fused with a bunch of other shadows and namatame's shadow they see in the hospital is not actually his shadow

[@animewatcher102]

That is a good point even if the gods aren't their shadows the fact that they had yellow eyes means they fused with their shadows. Adachi embraced his shadow completely which allowed him to use his persona.

[@Sayvonite]

I don't think that the _Persona_ fanbase will get mad at all. I remember when Persona used to be obscure and that every Persona fan was ecstatic to hear how popular it was getting when _Persona 5_ was announced/released. Persona used to be a niche franchise, we appreciate the publicity.

[@kal-eldritch]

Agreed

[@sailorpaulino]

Well, just read the comments regarding his little Margaret/Elizabeth mistake and you star losing faith in the fanbase again.

[@cyd_hunter99]

Too late, they already did

[@howell2010]

I mean, the persona fanbase is already attacking him, mainly over the Elizabeth/Margaret thing, but they are pulling out a lot of esoteric lore as well. The differences between the original Persona 4, Persona 4 Golden, The animation, and Persona Q (which I forgot was a thing) People really go after Mat Pat for dumb things when he covers beloved series instead of just enjoying the video.

[@codydaily3807]

Already hundreds of dislikes

[@lostmanwithaplan4100]

Hey...ya know there’s a fighting game with yu’s shadow

[@julianrobertson1869]

A replica shadow

[@smithwimm1575]

A shadow's shadow

[@holdmybrickplease3151]

Regardless of the inaccuracy this is a good time to just say that everyone should go back and play persona 4

[@Joker-qm1jy]

The only thing idk of in persona 4 is that extra dungeon and thats because i was too slow with Maries social link and missed my chance (completed it too late now im annoyed. Ive been in that damn strip club dungeon for far too long)

[@uchihasuisen]

That awkward moment when Margaret is called Elizabeth.

[@junalconera8216]

Suisen and no one noticed it...

[@WhosManIsThis]

Half persona hell Meme it to hell 😂

[@234brian1]

I notice it too. Poor Margaret

[@wills4579]

This starting to become a meme in the fan base already!

[@backspace3623]

lol

[@ChoriandusGamingGMVs]

this would make sense if not for a few problems, I would like to point out a few of these holes in this theory: 1. Yu's Velvet Room Attendant is Margaret, not Elizabeth. Elizabeth was Makoto's attendant in Persona 3. 2. Nametame and Adachi don't merge with their shadows, but are actually possessed by two major fragments of Izanami; Ame-no-Sagiri and Kuni-no-Sagiri. 3. Yu DOES actually face his shadow during a secret/optional boss fight with Margaret. a non-violent shadow that appears on a bunch of TV screens. which Yu does immediately acknowledge as part of himself. 4. Persona 4 Golden, Persona 4 the animation and Persona 4 the Golden Animation fix some major lore holes. 5. this is not the first time this sort of theory has appeared, first one i have seen saying that Teddie is the disconnected shadow of Yu's childhood innocence, something he's lost connection to for quite some time thus allowing his shadow to gain a sense of self but also explaining Teddies lack of memories, and lore wise Teddie is not the first time a shadow has become self aware and sentient. a few other cases under different circumstances there have been "Shadow selves" appearing. whether caused by rumor becoming reality such as in persona 2 with the shadow selves of the party, or a powerful fragment of a greater entity becoming self aware, Such as Ryoji Mochizuki in Persona 3, a shadow representing "Death Arcana" becoming self aware. a decently crafted theory when taking the tarot into account, but there are still some holes even in your research for the game

[@ekdeans6618]

1. yay script error 2. You fight with Adachi in his Shadow form before Ameno-Sagiri shows up. Adachi's eyes turn golden right in front of you. His sprite blacks out the moment he gets possessed. Pay attention 3. Yu's shadow only makes an appearance in the anime, which has a separate canon from the games. It never shows up anywhere else. 4. Golden yes, the two animes not so much, since they're just adaptations of the games (and not very good ones in GA's case). But yeah, I question how Matpat managed to completely ignore Golden and its plot-hole patch job.

[@livvy28sim]

omg thank you it kinda bugged me hearing her name as elizabeth i was so confused as to why he was calling her that. I realise he can be busy but I thought her name would have at least been correct :P There are a lot of things he has missed kinda like he didnt really have all the information but i was really stoked to see a persona video on his channel either way :P It's always cool to see peoples interest in persona and their take on things :P

[@TakiwaraTaki]

Halleluhja

[@NegitoroIsBestShip]

Let's not forget the fact that he got the people who appear in the Velvet Room wrong too. Marie also makes an appearance. Which throws a big ol wrench in his theory.

[@Melalink]

I was just writing this until i saw your comment~

[@Pokegirl3515]

Can't wait for the inevitable and inaccurate persona 5 theory

[@abyssboi6377]

We're all waiting, it'll happen eventually with royal happening. be expecting something like "Is ren secretly akechi who is secretly igor?"

[@kamz9105]

Is morgana joker shadow?

[@JWuKong95]

I think he learned his lesson on this one.

[@kobeyashi6981]

"If teddie is Yu's shadow, then who faced Yu near the ending of the anime with those stacks of TV with Yu's face all over it?" Me, who only watched the animation because i cant afford ps2 :(

[@MilkyNep]

I mean, you could emulate the game

[@miyukihikawa18]

If you have a PS3 or a PSVita you can get it from the PlayStation Store, I think it's 8 dollars for the PS3 version I don't know how much it cost on Vita. =w=

[@kobeyashi6981]

@@miyukihikawa18 a potato phone is all i have there arent any good emulators for ps2 yet either

[@rokia360]

@@kobeyashi6981 pcsx2 is good enough if you just want to experience the game. I have a potato laptop and I have extreme lag that would be unplayable by most people but I am still having a good time. But if you're talking about emulators on the phone then you're right there isn't any good ones that can run the original P4 (believe me I tried)

[@kobeyashi6981]

@@rokia360 its been 4 months since i posted this, and until now, i cant find any good emulators And i still dont have any laptop or pc or ps4 or anything really

[@mattc9036]

Actually even games I haven't played I still watch your theories on.

[@pittaaaabread]

same dude

[@mad4fallout655]

Matt Cann same

[@ilvoidil8230]

Yeah same here

[@evangeline273]

Matt Cann same lol

[@Erastella]

Me too, I just love watching him theorize.

[@Avenz0r]

I enjoy game theory but, MatPat do a video over games you have some genuine interest in. The Persona series isn't even that obscure for this theory to be so flawed like some say. Especially when Petscop is obscure af and you have really good videos on it. It's also weird to forget an entire expansion of this game but then you tear apart a kid's activity book for fnaf. When you have passion for a series it shows the same can be said when you don't.

[@memperkasaya2078]

Avenz has The people who liked this theory are unironically retarded

[@yoshikagekira5880]

@@memperkasaya2078 or have just never played the game

[@RXQ1jj]

same goes with the bendy and the ink machine theories

[@arthursteiner3734]

Game Theory: Yu is actually Jokers grandma so he’s actually a girl and had a husband than became jokers grandma

[@akabkb6692]

Sure explains the grey hair.

[@jellotrooper]

when your entire theory can be clearly and easily disproved by things main characters tell you in the games story

[@remixV4]

Or Yu simply doesn't have a shadow because he has nothing to reject about himself, being a blank slate and all. Teddy being the only auto maxed Link could just be a way for the game to ensure you're not locked out of winning against the final boss. "Didn't max any links? lol start over again for the true ending." Other people come into the Velvet room in several games without contracts, like Persona Q and 5 (and the Aegis story in 3 I think?) . Not being human to begin with, it's not all that odd for Teddy to show up there. It's more like a guideline, not a hard rule. Finally, I always saw Teddy as being an embodiment of the more positive emotions people may suppress, like childishness or curiosity, instead of the resentment and fear that normal shadows represent.

[@skulllatte3352]

All the members of SEES enter the velvet room in The Answer. Although they weren't supposed to have entered.

[@witchBoi_Connor]

He mentioned your third point with a counter point.

[@OldmanJables]

Yeah, and matpat's counterpoint is wrong, which is what this guy is offering in the first place.

[@mikigirl18]

I kind of saw Teddie ending up in the Velvet Room because he was so upset and devastated over Nanako. His heart called out for some way to help her. And that lead him to the Velvet Room.

[@mads_in_zero]

Teddie being the auto-max link is important for another reason. (TL;DR, Teddie's Arcana, The Star, is related to the game's main themes) In Persona 3 (the game to introduce SLinks), the SLinks that auto-ranked were Fool and Judgement (for the party), and Death (for Pharos). Death is the main theme of Persona 3. In Persona 5, the non-party related confidants that auto-ranked up were Justice and Judgement. This is because those two concepts relate to the main themes of the game. Persona 4 has a theme of persistence and determination, in the sense that you have to continually reach for deeper truths to unlock the True Ending. Teddie's Arcana, the Star, reflects this concept.

[@smashbros99]

Counter Argument #3: It's explained that a Persona and a Shadow are the same thing. You even watch everyone's shadow become their Persona. Since Yu has a Persona, that would mean it's also his shadow, meaning Teddie couldn't have been his shadow. Side Note: Ameno-sagiri is not Adachi's shadow. Adachi has a Persona, and I doubt he has any part of himself that he rejects that would become his shadow. Interesting thing to note though is that Namatame has a shadow, but he's never shown with a Persona.

[@redmaster12251]

Maybe namatame was possessed by one of the parts of izanami?

[@lightcoredog4721]

lets forget teddy has a persona

[@thatonepersonainp5793]

teddie on thumbnail: (read in deap dark death voice) *im coming for you yu* teddie in reality: (read in high but not too high pitched voice) *EvErYdAyS gRaTe At YoUr JuNeS*

[@Zakrovik]

GAME THEORY: Goro is Joker's shadow!

[@javiinkling695]

I mean, he kinda is in a symbolic way

[@icantdraw3781]

That means that Akechi promotes suicide

[@memperkasaya2078]

The people who liked this theory are unironically retarded

[@PapiBlackarot]

They are meant to be the 2 sides of a coin

[@frigis2806]

But akechi is the SON of a HUMAN in the REAL world

[@AzureAce]

We see Yu's Shadow in the anime.

[@mtemboar4726]

MatPat: The World Me: ZA WARUDO

[@wifimonkas]

“and his assistant elizabeth”, hmmmm tell me more of this elizabeth

[@GigaGrumbles]

Except...that's just wrong. Yu's shadow is Izanagi, forcibly awaken by Izanami so he didn't have to face himself. Teddie confirmed that he wasn't Yu's shadow anyway.

[@KasumiSasori]

just curious, when and how does teddie do this?

[@sirxenon2690]

he’s a shadow born from the desire to have friends and be liked by other people, hence his mascot appearance. Tho I believe he says himself that he just wanted other people to like him.

[@trueoskar]

That's what Yu's shadow in the anime says too, he wanted friends so he wouldn't be alone.

[@deadaccount2968]

trueoskar Anume Yu and game Yu are two different characters.

[@alexeas5256]

As much as I LOVE this theory, there’s one things that’s been bugging me throughout the whole thing.... We HAVE seen Yu’s shadow. In Persona 4 the Animation. It was during his fight against Margaret. He didn’t fight his shadow because he accepted his right away. Though this theory seems to fit better so I agree with the theory more.

[@minimonkeymasher8888]

Emma Richter contradictory lore as he said. Also ask yourself this, which is canon? The animation of the game or the game which has an animation?

[@rezaldievergreen5266]

both?

[@ThaTrueRealmWalker]

All the games and the animation are canon, every single one is canon

[@minimonkeymasher8888]

Marro Bol yeah I know. That makes my head hurt about how everything is canon in the series

[@Spacejazz6]

Emma Richter same, it fits much more and seems to fit with the theme better, the one the animation gave us was kinda..dumb and admittingly made Yu out to be kind of a Mary Sue or..Gary lou? Whatever, ether way, it was kinda boring.

[@MrTempoedoeloe]

Actually, shadow Yu actually exists. in OVA during the final battle Shadow Yu manifest himself, and Yu accept him thus transform Izanagi into Izanagi no Okami. He had his own fears, but during 1 year in Inaba, he focuses all his attention on the investigation so his real thought of himself never makes an appearance, just before the final battle when he realizes he needs to move on, his shadows manifest. He could also use persona without confronting his shadows because he is one of the three who had been given a gift by the god.

[@nagojo4961]

okay no way im finding out about this theory just now but holy shi never expected Mat to do a theory for P4

[@inferiorrabbit2303]

I was really happy when I saw Mattpat did a theory on Persona, but I’m disappointed that this time his research just didn’t make the cut and his theory can easily be proven wrong. (One example is that everyone’s shadow would transform into their persona, meaning their persona and shadow are one in the same, but that means teddy can’t be Yu’s shadow since they both exist at the same time as two separate beings) *also one thing that really bothered me that I want to make clear is that Namatame never actually has a persona in the game, only the power to enter the tv world

[@3triplezero0]

Matpat has been consistently losing my respect. Not that is matters to anyone. This theory is so half-assed it should just be removed.

[@fezzes304]

Yeah... It's sad to see his content degrade but the thing that makes me even sadder is him resorting to such lame manipulation tactics hence the intro. *Spoilers ahead* But on another note one could argue that Yu's and Adachi's "persona's" are really just shadows but they can control them because of the 'gift'. Just look at Yu's and Adachi's personas They have much darker design than most of the rest. Also Namatame didn't have persona probably because he was just manipulated by Adachi and he was pretty weak willed. Also when you are fighting the true final boss one could argue that Yu turns his shadow into a persona at that point. So I think that Teddy is just like anomaly of a shadow in that he seems to posses only the positive emotions when normal shadows posses only negative. This could also play part in why Teddy and Yu form a strong bond since like Matt said those are all the qualities that one would need to achieve the world arcana state or the state of self actualization and Yu also has something Teddy doesn't, self identity. In the beginning Teddy is just a husk of emotions without strict image of self but Yu and the others give him the tools to build one for himself. Also Teddy is just a tool for the devs to use in character building Teddy and Morgana are prime models of "supporting characters" whose only job is to support a silent protagonist, or something like that. Also there has been other people with persona's who have not gone through any "self-actualization" and some examples would be the Strega from P3 who kept their shadows/personas under control with drugs and Goro Akechi from P5 who was the second "gift bearer" in that game.

[@anthonymichael7888]

7:42 His assistant Lizbeth Mat, that's Margaret.

[@cheeselegs9950]

He actually made a comment on how the fans are all pitchforks and torches on him for pointing this out. Although I didn't see it myself, a lot saw it and said that he deleted it soon after. what a twinkie...

[@DKMonsieur]

Counter-theory: Teddie is essentially the same type of being as Morgana. Created by Igor (or Philemon?) out of mankind's hope in order to guide the wild card to the World. This aligns with his arcana being Star, with his connection to Yu, with him wanting to help the party from the get-go, with his special role in the true ending, and with him accessing the Velvet room and feeling familiarity with it. A great deal of other people have explained in the comments why Yu doesn't necessarily have a Shadow.

[@Naotosbiggestfan24]

Who mentioned the bad butterfly 🦋 god, philemon?

[@heyaeveryone5738]

Actually in Persona 4 the Animation Yu meets his shadow during one of the final battles when he fights against Margaret and **Spoiler coming up** His shadow self expresses how he doesn't want to leave the town and his friends (Persona Protags and all their 1 year only rules), which ultimately he accepts to fully unleash his persona's power

[@rishabbnarayan4288]

I don't think the anime is canon. Not sure tho. But the games say he didn't need to meet his shadow, since (spoiler) Izanami shook Yu's hand, giving him the power of Persona without going through the whole ordeal of facing his shadow.

[@Spacecuba]

If Teddie was truly Yu's shadow, why didn't Teddie change into Izanagi? When the rest of the Scooby Gang went face-to-face with their inner self, their shadow self transformed into their persona's and became a more tame formed. The elements the Shadow self uses in battle will directly correlate with the element they will control, with Yosuke getting Wind, Chie getting ice, etc. Izanagi's element is Electric, but Kintoki-Douji has no electric attacks and attacks with ice.

[@Spacecuba]

Also if any character is Yu's shadow, it would most definitely be Adachi. Yu's power comes from the power of friendship and the people he links with, but Adachi is isolated and jaded from the world.

[@miinfluencer1373]

I think the idea here is that Izanagi was a gifted Persona. Yu got him from Izanami and not from himself. So Teddy represents himself but got displaced by Izanagi so he ended up becoming his own person. Of course that can't happen because we see what happens when a person loses his shadow in Persona 3. They go comatose/smartphone zombie or what's called "Apathy Syndrome" in the game.

[@HotaruMitsuki101]

Dennis Wayne Maybe this is why MatPat addressed the whole "inconsistent lore" thing in the beginning.

[@ultimatedespairgamer6722]

Mitsuki Horenake honestly it's only inconsistent lore if you havnt actually played the games and just I guess read a page on Wikipedia which is what it feels like matpat did

[@animewatcher102]

Spacecuba Looking through the comments I think there is a possible explanation. Yu has the wild card but not Adachi, he has multiple personas so he could has gotten a persona from Izanami and discarded Teddie.

[@ZabieW]

That intro is 100% true and yes, I just need to point out that Adachi never fused with his Shadow. Ameno Sagiri is not a Shadow, it's a god that answers to human desires, all the stuff happening in the midnight channel made people want to simply leave in peace, oblivious from the truth, so he just went "Oh, humanity wants that, then I'll grant their wish!" The reason why you got a Persona was because Izanami gave it to him, the handshake at the start of the game is the trigger that gives him his Persona and the powers to enter the Midnight Channel, same with Adachi, wich is why Adachi basically gets the same Persona as Yu. It's also worth mentioning that the anime actually gave Yu a Shadow. So while it was entertaining, this theory doesn't hold much water.

[@cherryberrykomainu8699]

ZabieW the anime isn't canon.

[@Lastarious]

You just explained all without the need of the animation part. Even P4G makes this theory water. Guess Matt was low on info for this one. Still a fun theory

[@tollburd1348]

ZabieW Shush and just enjoy the theory XD XD

[@pataponguy8190]

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who noticed the handshake missing in this video.

[@setsuyuhitzuran323]

Mr ReeMann except he references pieces of anime in the theory so yeah

[@fogcomign]

Matpat: upsets entire fanbase on purpose within the first minute without doing actual research into his insult Also matpat: why are you upset!???? 🥺🥺🥺