Marmoset Toolbag 4 -- WOW! Substance Painter Has Competition

Marmoset just released Marmoset Toolbag 4 and WOW is it a step forward. Not only did they add real time raytracing support, but they added Texture Painting support, with a level of features to give Substance Painter some much needed competition!
Link:
gamefromscratc...

[@gamefromscratch]

Link: gamefromscratch.com/marmoset-toolbag-4-released/

[@butterbean_01]

this is impressive. i used to work with blender-photoshop-materialize-s.painter-marmoset-resolve and now it's (almost) all-in-one. truly impressive, thanks for the video!

[@Continuum7]

I've owned Marmoset 3 then upgraded to 4 but never looked into the painting aspect yet (mostly used it for baking and rendering). What I have used for years is 3D Coat, its a great 3D Paint program and glad I supported them over Adobe's substance painter.

[@NickEnchev]

I'm currently evaluating 3DCoat as a sculpting and texture painting tool, sculpting is amazing, retopo amazing, UV mapping amazing. Now I'm trying out the painting, apparently you can't directly use a normal texture map when creating smart material layers with 3DCoat, which is ridiculous. All of my PBR materials can be used to paint, except for their normal layers. They want you to convert them to greyscale depth maps, which do not contain the same information, all of the vectors that the normal map contains have been boiled down top simple greyscale height values. This pissed me off a lot because I really really like the rest of the software.

[@aryjarvis3161]

It’s kind of a shame it’s devs are Christian fundamentalists and it’s reflected in a restrictive Eula

[@joespadaford8736]

Why you would showcase a painting app in a twilight shadow hdr setting is beyond me.

[@hdhwkq]

BRO U DONT KNOW HOW MUCH U HELPING PEOPLE THXS

[@erz3030]

Thanks for the heads up! I hear Armor Paint is a good Substance alternative too. I have to check it out myself too.

[@xyzconsultingarvr3ddesign8]

Yes! Armor paint is a very cheap alternative, it is still in development but it does a pretty good job for being in early stages, definitely check it out

[@anjankumardas9738]

I really Like all ur videos...I think your videos should at least reach 1million views in one month. But the bad thing is very little people appreciate you and your videos. A big thumbs👍 up from me to continue this cool work.

[@cgvinny]

Just an info to change: Substance Painter IS available as perpetual on Steam.

[@AndyxbecK]

Dude, Thank you!

[@cr4723]

The Steam-Version is a castrated and unstable version of substance painter with missing features.

[@cgvinny]

@@cr4723 it's the same version

[@gpeto9632]

sadly they removed it from steam, goodbye regional prices ;(

[@RuthwikRao]

smh exactly this. It used to cost just as much as SP on steam due to regional pricing, but now SP remains on Steam (well, the next version isn't coming that's for sure but at least you get the 2021 version) but marmoset got out, making the dollar cost fucking ridiculous compared to region pricing on SP, so doubling down on SP is just more reasonable.

[@HATL201]

This is genuinely sad. I wish they could know how freaking expensive $300 is in certain parts of world. Not everyone lives in the west to be able to afford that. Steam regional pricing combined with seasonal sales actually made it affordable for many of us.

[@SneakyKittyGameDev]

@@HATL201 They stated they are looking into their own *regional price* options

[@VitorGuerreiroVideos]

I love Toolbag3, been my main Baker for ages. I'm not sure regarding this update though...it's super expensive even if you have the previous version. I find the TExture tools super cool, but I think devs still keep missing what makes Substance Painter so powerful - the Tileable AND 100% Procedural maps + the masking features (yes Painter has procedural tools, not just Designer). I rarely even use the painting tools... and the 'alternative' tools keep insisting in the Painting toolset, which is cool, but still doesn't replace what makes Painter powerful. Thanks for the update! Great work as usual Mike! :D

[@phantomapprentice6749]

Yeah I actually don't care about that part because Quixel Mixer is free and has all the procedural tileable stuff I could ever want. So now the dilemma is more about price becauseoolbag is better.

[@SP2718]

Hey there, there are procedural masks in Toolbag 4 as well as smart masks, grunge generator etc that seem pretty much the same as SP. And you can save any layer stack as a smart mask too. Check the Learn Toolbag 4 playlist where they go over everything if you haven’t done so already. A little learning curve to switch but I think it’s brilliant!

[@VitorGuerreiroVideos]

@@SP2718 From what I've seen so far, you still have to import or use the library of pre-made materials. I've seen their tutorial videos during the beta stage, but they don't show much in terms of procedural texturing. I know it has procedural masks and such, but so does Armor Paint and Mixer. Yet, as far as I've seen, I couldn't find any true alternative to SP in regards to the super complex and actual procedural noises that would allow to author materials (realistic and stylized) from scratch, kinda like SD, but in layers. I could be mistaken though (I actually hope I am xD), so if you could provide any specific links for examples of that kind of stuff I would very much appreciate. :D.

[@VitorGuerreiroVideos]

Just to clarify a bit, the workflow I used to follow in SP was kinda similar from the one Ryan details in this tutorial : kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5yso4eid9pnmMk

[@VitorGuerreiroVideos]

@@SP2718 Alright, just installed the trial (I tested a quick bit during beta but didn't have much time). And wow! you're actually right! I'm happy to take my doubts back! Just tested with some model I had done, and it has so much potential! Thanks for commenting this making me try again!

[@colin_actually]

Very happy to see an alternative to Substance Painter. RIP Allegorithmic.

[@adosadios]

3d-coat, Blender, Mari? never seen before??))

[@Visualife]

How wonderful, thank you great summary ❤‍🔥

[@KasperFrandsen]

Material Maker really is turning into a cool replacement for SD for me, even though I bough SD and SP I just don't want to use them after the Adobe acquisition. There is experimental painting support in Material Maker's alpha now as well, still very early, but hopefully that will become as good as the rest.

[@MoriAnimations]

There's a lot about Substance Painter that frustrates me. I've been looking for an alternative, and this one monthly is cheaper, seems to have more in-the-box brushes and content.

[@Tallacus]

The latest version of Mixer just came out

[@vanillatography1544]

The question is, as a 3d art student, should I upgrade to V.4 and learn the new marmoset texturing system or am I wasting my time/money and should stick with Substance Suite. What are the practical pros to switching and what are the deal breakers. It might be a good competitor but fundamentally will studios/texture artists be adopting this software as part of their pipelines and thus making it worthwhile to learn.

[@gamefromscratch]

If you're going for resume building it's hard not to recommend Substance. It is the industry standard and I think Adobe has decent educational pricing.

[@RyoMassaki]

Stick with Substance but also learn Mari. That way you keep one step ahead of the competition. There is a free Non-Commercial (slightly limited) version of Mari available on the foundry site (but you need to make an account there).

[@vanillatography1544]

@@RyoMassaki Thanks for your reply, ive heard of Mari but will look into in more detail, thanks alot.

[@vanillatography1544]

@@gamefromscratch Thankyou for replying, great video by the way, yeah I already have experience in Substance, though far from professional grade, but you're right and having free access to it is arguably the best way to go, and as you said, its now starting to be the standard, especially amongst AAA studios. Thanks for your reply though! +1 sub

[@arrw]

@@vanillatography1544 I'd only recommend Mari if you're interested in getting into 3d for film. It's the industry standard for that because of it's ability to have huge amounts of UDIM maps for insanely high resolution maps. Painter recently added support for multiple UDIM maps but it's yet to be seen if it will become industry standard for film. If you want to go into games, Painter is 100% the way to go. I'm personally in the industry for 3d art for games, so I use painter, but I learned Mari when I was starting. I found it antiquated and hard to use, crashing endlessly and just a giant headache. I found painter much easier and much more familiar to photoshop. Just my personal experience though. If you are a student you can try them both for free.

[@dracowyr9050]

I don't want to be *that guy* - but albedo is pronounced "al -bee-dow". Excited to use this! Go Marmoset!

[@vegaheinrich695]

lol it's not Alberdor?

[@spooderman5405]

Yeah you are that guy

[@atoaster2070]

5:15 Substance Painter and Designer Indie are still available as perpetual licenses via Steam, but you don't get access to Substance Source or Alchemy.

[@nicholasbrown5013]

Isn’t it also an older version (2018)? I had a tough time finding accurate info on the difference

[@nicholasbrown5013]

@Semih Tok ok thank you! :)

[@dveneky1212]

Hi can you tell me about the Steam license and what's it about? Is it available to use for commercial purposes

[@BaseRealityVR]

Excellent . I wonder If EPIC is now going to buy this and make it free, Because They /We really missed out on Substance painter going to Bad guy adobe.

[@nicholasbrown5013]

I think that was what their quixel move was

[@LORDSofCHAOS333]

This is sweet . 2021 it's starting light .

[@razblack]

absolutely fantastic! O M G love this

[@icedriver2207]

I wish you had chose a better HDRI. The rest of the video is awesome.

[@SullenSecret]

Once I saw the price, I was like: okay, maybe I'll see what Blender can do.

[@nirmattgopal1806]

Same

[@erz3030]

Blender's brush setup/settings are atrocious. Also it has 0 generators that I know of besides what you can normally do with manual texture nodes. I look forward to the day it improves.

[@deividaskiznis906]

you can try armor paint

[@ibrahem891]

How much?

[@SullenSecret]

@@ibrahem891 - $300 for perpetual.

[@kurtrichards3618]

I know this is a little late but I follow your video exactly, but my curser won't turn into a brush when in paint mode. Can't figure out what's wrong and I'm following your tutorial exactly.

[@CGDreamsTutorials]

Very helpful video. Is there a known pattern to release dates and revision updates as to the bet time to buy this? If v5 is around the corner I can wait?

[@JasonAdank]

Does Marmoset generate errors in the mesh maps baking process? One thing thats been driving me crazy with substance is how i get alot of errors in the occlusion base map.

[@simonlegrand7930]

Sad there is no Linux version unfortunately, without that it'll be less easily integrated in some studios ... :-/

[@abdulrazakck]

Substance painter -42USD PER MONTH Marmoset Toolbag 4 - 15 PER month Mixer - free armor paint - 16 EUR B painter

[@getrekt8365]

Or you can buy toolbag once and be done with it.

[@cr4723]

Toolbag has a ray tracing render engine included in the price.

[@AngryMan540]

You can get the Substance stuff on steam w/ perpetual

[@SneakyKittyGameDev]

Isnt that just the version you purchased? no upgrades?

[@AngryMan540]

@@SneakyKittyGameDev yes

[@AngryMan540]

@@SneakyKittyGameDev should note that your purchase should continue to get patched for the year of the license purchased, but you don’t lose it when that period is over

[@huimoin]

Amazing, but without .sbr support it‘s just not production ready. Substance Designer is the standard and anything that requires me to export materials as images is a no go.

[@joshua42777]

question, how does this compare to texturing in 3dcoat?

[@Alenori]

I feel like Quixel + Marmoset are still a great standard. Really sad people don't really talk about it, because you CAN paint textures, grunge etc. I noticed you mention Quixel, but you just brush over it. Really sad to keep seeing people just brush over it, with how diverse it's library, and usability is.

[@gamefromscratch]

Well that's because it got it's own video later in the day.

[@AlexTsekot]

Its a shame they dropped sbsar support since that basically is going to divide the user bases, not a surprise though since now they are technically competition. Hope they can keep this up and stick it to adobe.

[@mrcyberpunk]

damn it I was hyped about this till I saw the price. Was hoping it'd be cheaper than Substance.

[@ElricTheFullMetal]

Quixel Mixer has left the channel.

[@gamefromscratch]

Mixer is actually making huge strides in this regard too, although Toolbag felt a lot closer to Painter than Mixer does. Just two different approaches to the same problem.

[@ajwad3722]

Actually no. Mixer just got an update like an hour ago. :)

[@janvollgod7221]

i guess from some perspective it could look like marmoset is competitive against substance painter's main strength, but this is by far not the case. I see the new marmoset more likely in the area quixel mixer( who has this feature already long time, for free). Marmoset shines in another department, which slowly breaks into pieces, because free alternatives growing. So they add this features to somehow justify the high price. If you do procedural texturing, nothing beats substance Blender combo. Cycles X blows everything out of the water and its free. For hand painted stuff and concept art, substance is also fine, but 3dcoat and Mari are just better packages. With Adobe on Board at Blender and the new bridge tools, the advantage is massive. Quixel mixer and their megascan lib help massively to create. 3dcoat has also a nice bridge to blender. The question is, for what do you need marmoset? Or what justify the high price? I see nothing. The times change with the rise of blender, and for freelancer 3d artist, this is a very good trend.

[@sunetrasaike5928]

how to import any kind of map for different udims?

[@ImogenValkyrie]

Does this Marmoset support UDIM or not??

[@tomoyaogawa4485]

To my knowledge, I don’t think so.

[@ImogenValkyrie]

@@tomoyaogawa4485 what a pity :( thanks for the info

[@genkidama7385]

good, i stopped believing in substance the minute adobe acquired it.

[@jokybones]

No UDIM support is an isue for me i guess i`ll stick to Substance Painter

[@Garflips]

3D Coat all the way.

[@Raretdr]

it is a must have, to have the albedo first, before we can texture in marmoset 4? I have unwrapped a sphere, withouth making any maps. Then import the sphere with NO maps and only unwrap to marmoset. Cant paint on it. I thought you can make ALL the maps in marmoset 4.???=

[@Raretdr]

I cant paint on anything --.-- Even in "paint mode"

[@AD-Dom]

Armor paint is pretty good too. Its kind of in its infancy. Check it out if Toolbag is out of your $$ league.

[@kloa4219]

Goodbye Adobe

[@inoyashakitbu1178]

Did Toolbag also have these kind of generators like in Painter ?

[@GuestOfGregoryHouse]

I've just bought this. Should I buy Substance Painter for Steam too? I'm a complete noob to 3D. I've just bought Zbrush 2021 too

[@alekjwrgnwekfgn]

Wow exciting times for you! Have you seen Michael Pavlovich's latest video (advertising his course). Mind Blown.

[@GuestOfGregoryHouse]

@@alekjwrgnwekfgn No but I'll check it out thanks

[@TheCgsoulChannel]

how do you activate the symetrical paint?

[@czesiek77PL]

Can you download all the textures at once without downloading before use?

[@deuksooseo]

brush mirror funtion.. Where??

[@mikeking1189]

is UDIM are supported?

[@puretrack06]

So this is cheaper for the subscription but substance painter perpetual-license is cheaper by $150. Looks like it comes down to just how much do you hate Adobe. You can buy a Perpetual license for substance painter and designer via Steam

[@092_deepak_kumar3]

It's going to be removed next year as I remember

[@WildWestDesigns]

I don't really expect any commercial product to perpetually keep perpetual licenses. I remember when Adobe made the switch to full subscription and Corel used the fact that they still had had a perpetual license to get some of those Adobe people and it's slowly looking like they are going away from that model and full subscription as well.

[@gamefromscratch]

I think the key is when they stop offering perpetual licenses. There is a perception that when it's forced annual upgrades, the developers get lazy. Given the recent results out of Autodesk, it's hard to argue that point. With perpetual licenses, they have to sell you on new improvements each new version.

[@092_deepak_kumar3]

@@WildWestDesigns Free(Libre) software exists like Armor paint but it crashes a lot, so yeah.

[@puretrack06]

@@gamefromscratch exactly this. I am still using maya 2015 as I have yet to see any features to drive me to update. Alot of polish, UI changes, and added quality of life upgrades in 2020. But nothing to reduce my workflow making it beneficial to upgrade.

[@ericohiani1647]

What would happen 2021 mixer just got his release wow.

[@gamefromscratch]

I just covered it, Mixer update was a little underwhelming to be honest.

[@BossTony]

Does this work with UDIMs?

[@gobbi998]

Finaly some alternative to substance painter

[@djteogeo]

Optix is an AI Denoiser, not w/e u said..

[@halukeskywalker1]

Good news

[@nolram]

What about ArmorPaint ?

[@gamefromscratch]

ArmorPaint has a hell of a lot of potential. It also needs to really work on stability though.

[@tmcthree]

@@gamefromscratch 3dcoat?

[@eduardoabreu4047]

@@tmcthree Is 3dCoat worth looking into? I haven't heard a lot about it in a long time, I'm trying to get rid of some subscriptions and my problem with the indie version is that it's limited in layers and texture size only up to 2k

[@MZONE3D]

3d coat is pretty decent too, its easy to setup smart materials, it can do alot more like retopology, sculpting and modelling, and UV ing, just be ready to do alot of learning, because although it is very good, its a bit unorthodox in its approaches. Oh and its single screen only, no support for a second monitor which I would say is one of its downfalls.

[@tmcthree]

​@@eduardoabreu4047 It is very good, it's showing it's age a bit now, but definitely worth your time to try it out. It's main problem is tries to do too much - painting/sculpting/voxel sculpting/uvs/retopo. Combine that with quite a small dev team and it's fallen behind a bit recently.... That said, every tool in it is solid, particularly painting and it's uv seam tools are still the fastest I've used. (If you're a pro it's worth the money just for the time you'll save there) There are a couple of niggles (like it doesn't seem to support multiple uvs on one mesh, which is a pain if you're a technical artist), but I understand that the forthcoming 3dcoat 2021 is a major update introducing a node based workflow, so hopefully they'll be gunning for substance designer. All the licences are permanent. The devs seem like thoroughly decent chaps. Certainly worth downloading the trial to see if it fits. Especially when 2021 comes out. I'm waiting to give 2021 a chance before I jump ship to substance.

[@plumfun6750]

Greatstuff! Ithinkyou coveralotofgroundina really short periodoftimedue tothespeedthatyoutendtospeak. .. Sorry, was that confusing? ... ;) .. If I slow you down to .75 I can understand what you're saying. May want to pump the verbal breaks a bit there is what I'm saying. :)

[@TechDunk]

Awh sad. Thought it was free at first

[@madnessnew6357]

Too bad still can't use UDIM

[@FM_GOBi]

Guys, how long will Painter and Designer remain on Steam? Do I understand correctly that they will stay on Steam indefinitely?

[@puretrack06]

Based on my understanding it will always be available on Steam. The only difference is the Perpetual license only comes with one year updates

[@RuthwikRao]

newer versions (2022 and forward) won't appear on steam. And the 2021 versions if bought before a certain date will get you free maintenance for a year or something. Other than that, yeah Adobe caught up and subs are their focus now, as made evident by all new substance software (like Alchemist and anything they come up with next) being only accessible through subscription. At least Epic made Mixer and Megascans free for UE users upon acquisition AND cut the price of megascans by half for non UE users, wtf did Adobe do for Substance OR CC users? absolute fuck all except infect Substance products with the same cancer of mandatory SaaS, that's unless Allegorithmic themselves were moving in that direction and Adobe just fit them as a perfect parent.

[@FM_GOBi]

​@@RuthwikRao From my experience, it takes a decade or two for software like this to get game changing updates. The steam version will be a fantastic career starters for many people, when paired with blender. The deal works for me personally.

[@jefm32]

It is cool, but the price? Nah, never.

[@SomeKindOfMattias]

Marmoset strategy handbook 2020: Tread water until aquired by Adobe or Epic :)

[@insomniaczombie8942]

God no, Adobe pretty much ruins most programs that they acquired

[@EricWilliamsCG]

If you use your gpu to render image sequences, in Modo for example, that take 5 to 10 seconds per frame is it considered a real time render? Then why is it considered real time when an interactive preview is rendered on the gpu and takes 5 seconds per frame to resolve?

[@volker2714]

No UDIM support it seems, no reprojection of manual paint strokes, no support for Substance Designer files. As cool as this looks at first glance, it is not there yet, and certainly not for the price they charge.

[@Potatinized]

Now it make sense to buy Marmoset. It was pretty stupid before. You gotta pay good bucks to build an awesome personal portfolio.. wtf? Besides, companies would rather see the models in-game. What good will it do to have a model that looks great in an engine that is built specifically for showcase but when it comes to in-game limitation and optimization, you're shit.

[@Aldebaran80]

No UDIM no fun...

[@hypeuprise7026]

Based on this title, I assume you don’t know about Mari’s existence, which is unfortunate

[@alekjwrgnwekfgn]

I think the price of Mari- they are competing with nobody, and are not interested in competing.

[@hypeuprise7026]

@@alekjwrgnwekfgn What do you mean? I would say they are def competing with substance painter, even if that is a lot cheaper then Mari is. I do think they may end up lowering Mari price in future if painter ever gets node graph

[@alekjwrgnwekfgn]

@@hypeuprise7026 yeah- I don't think anyone watching this chanel would consider Mari an option at its price

[@hypeuprise7026]

@@alekjwrgnwekfgn yeah byt if anyone watching works in film (such as myself), then Mari is the best option by far still.

[@alekjwrgnwekfgn]

@@hypeuprise7026 fair enough, but this is a channel for people making games (solo). Mari ain’t on the radar. If Games From Scratch covered Mari, dude, it would be like... come-on, seriously.

[@yeahorightbro]

I just want something that will let me paint 1px at a time for pixel art 😔

[@tetsuooshima832]

lol you can use Photoshop you know ? Look for the Pencil Tool

[@yeahorightbro]

@@tetsuooshima832 I mean for texture painting directly onto a model..

[@sercero]

Something like that was showcased in this channel not too Long ago...

[@astrounwrapped]

jesus christ slow down your intro man, you ate so many syllables

[@hipflipped]

You understand you can slow down youtube videos right?

[@Potatinized]

@@hipflipped still doesnt change the fact that his tongue cant keep up. But I prefer this way.

[@shounaksarkar8197]

4th view.

[@dusnmatr]

Adobe Toolbag 5

[@ericgriffin120]

Uhmm Nope. Not close. NO UDIMs. And they had subscriptions way before Adobe so stop the Adobe hate.

[@gamefromscratch]

Nobody dislikes subscriptions. They despise subscription only. Adobe pioneered that approach.