Dyno Testing Big cams - Kelford 4AGE - Dyno tested

[@Garage4age]

Some links in description for the cam spec, if they didn't stay on screen long enough or too small to read. Along with rest of engine spec. Both cam sets used here need undershim or shimless buckets. plus some clearancing around the bucket area, to allow the cams to spin. May get lucky in the HVB's case depending on your head casting. But more importantly, what set would you choose ?

[@crd-nz_001]

Head says daily driving should mean B cams. But the rest of the engine is built for C cams Would love to squeeze more headflow out of it to give more of a rise in top end power... Besides that, 210hp at the treads is unfathomable! Thanks for the video, and thank you Kelford Cams!

[@Lumberjack0286]

i think the hvb are better, even in racing condition, depends on how much rev u loose after shifting, the hvc only have more power the last 1500rpm, i guess when u shift your rpm drops more then 1500rpm? so that faster your get in high rpm that time u lose after shifting i guess. plus the worse midrange

[@wesulius]

@@Lumberjack0286 the matter is not so simple. In an internal combustion engine, everything affects everything. HV-C cams need more compression and re-ignition mapping. Then the power is the same low rpm as HV-B with camshafts. And max power is much better. The exhaust manifold must also be re-dimensioned correctly. .

[@Lumberjack0286]

@@wesulius but did i get it wrong, or hasnt he already the hvc cams in it and tested the hvb cams?

[@wesulius]

@@Lumberjack0286 yes, this just tell it, the engine now works better with b camshaft, but with small changes it would work better with c camshaft.

[@TurbineResearch]

Kelford is legendary for sending out some lumpy boiz to test

[@johnathancommodore9642]

Dude I have to admit you are the real deal the way you explain and do the Dyno run test.The back ground music is soothing and relaxing at the same time and it is not loud.Great content man👍

[@ジョージスミス-d8m]

こんにちは 日本から観てます とてもわかりやすくて興味深いテストばかりでいつも楽しませてもらっています。 応援しています。

[@dilsher12]

It's pretty cool how you can hear the change in engine tone right at 5500 rpm and dip in power .

[@rixogtr]

I'm surprised this guy isn't getting sponsored by big cams companies. You don't see a lot of empirical tests with consistent data on youtube like these ones. Also try Ivan Tighe Engineering. He does custom cams, might be able to make you the cams with the right flavor for you

[@gogocro1]

I want a dyno in my garage, so much mods and so many ideas to investigate on my VFR800.

[@tiitsaul9036]

Thanks for sharing this nerdy content. The more numbers the better

[@williamscott7125]

Thanks

[@jareknowak8712]

Great job, as usual! 👍

[@Adam-nv9zo]

Awesome video. Can't wait for more.

[@2103i]

THANKS so much!

[@tortron]

Recommended tabs for this video include "engine" and "listenable". Algorithm spot on here

[@tyldall]

This is a Brain massage Your a champ

[@pandemik0]

That's some sweet flat torque all the way through the top half of the rev range that must be a riot to drive.

[@ryandull6581]

inspiring as heck thank you sir

[@TRDKhanbrothers]

Thanks for the info sir I’d go with the first set of cams you added

[@iliasmetalworks]

Great, great videos as always.... Are these cams are drop in cams? How do you check piston to valve clearance with the cylinder head on? Thanks

[@Garage4age]

Hey, These are some of the biggest off the shelf cams made for them. both need shimless or shim under bucket conversion. also head needs some material removed to allow the cams to spin. I had already done this in the past for one of my other cam combo's along with the correct valve springs. to check valve clearance i remove the spark plugs and turn the engine over by hand. adjusting cam timing till there is contact. then slowly adjust till there is no contact. then add required clearance on top of that, using a dial gauge.

[@iliasmetalworks]

@@Garage4age I have always wondered what makes more power/difference if everything remains the same , lift or duration (if this a valid stand point what so ever) and I am inclined towards duration with aggressive camshaft ramps like yours. I know it's more complex than this cam 1 vs cam 2, other factors have their influence to... As always great videos, everyone should thank you for spending time and sharing data! The 52mm throttle bodies are bored itbs from what engine may I ask?

[@renz1013]

have u tried making a dry sump high compression camed 4a-g?

[@bhubb18]

The intake resonance is crazy with ignition timing!

[@onemiggz4703]

Wait, wow. 160kw to the wheels! Incredible, this is still a 1.6 right ? If so this gives me hope I can make that with my 20v blacktop. What gas are you running?

[@Garage4age]

still 1.6l, 1627cc if want to get picky as has oversized pistons. is setup to run on pump gas - 98ron

[@gregburrows4192]

Love how you do things... sure wish I had a dyno in my garage. In a Datsun/Nissan U20, I just swapped out a grind with a total lift of .531 for a cam with .478 (had a possible valve to block interference issue), both with the same duration and noted a (seat of the pants) significant drop in torque, especially at 3000-3500rpm. I noted a .020 lift change and more duration on the two cams you ran, but despite the duration change you still picked up torque across the board and didn't hurt it down low with more duration. Do you have any experience where you "over" lifted the valve and went backwards in Output? I've read that going over 15% of cylinder bore can lead to turbulence (.531 is 15.5%, .478 is 14.5%), but of course engines vary a lot.

[@lukethompson6829]

I find it interesting that oil temps impacted power that significantly. There must be a lot of parasitic drag from the oil pump. Do you have any testing with ported pumps?

[@Garage4age]

its more the rotating assembly (yeah the oil pump rotates, but you know what i mean) that causes the drag. the more rpm the more drag there is. there is very little difference in power below 6000rpm.

[@nobodynoone2500]

The oil temp trick is famous and used by decades of shady aftermarket part mfgs.

[@Garage4age]

@@nobodynoone2500 those magic fuses are a good example 🤣

[@rauchekcara]

@@Garage4age I saw them using the magic fuse on Keichi's 86. Car prime

[@Garage4age]

@@rauchekcara Yeah that's what was referring to. was probably hotter oil, on the run after they swapped the fuses out. how it gained power with rpm is what happens.

[@Shadowdarknessone]

Can you test please smallport head with bigport intake? And your exhaust headers vs the "classic racing exhaust in obx style" ones and maybe a 7age build on a budget? Is it worth it? Does it affect tvis positiv if you sharpen the inletside of it (like the edges where the blades are sitting) And can you build a inlet manifold for itbs on the cheap. And is there a cheap ish way for better enginemanagement. Like ecu that you can run itbs and coils.

[@dee1089]

did you set the cams up per suggesteed center line? also would be interesting to have a plot with the stock cams for reference. Nice video. i appreciate all the work you do!

[@Garage4age]

Roughly when was checking clearances. Bit generally don't bother, as should be adjusted on dyno to suit engine and preferred power curve

[@Doogleraia]

Some top end for a bunch of loss earlier on? Might be worth it but very hard to determine without varied load

[@slidenyo]

@garage4age I'd love to see staged injection utilizing 2 injectors per cylinder allowing each cylinder to get to max scavenge before bringing in the outboard injectors to bring the charge temp down

[@africankat1]

kindly consider testing power with different oil weights/thickness

[@SidewaysGts]

Next lets see some 20v cam changes :D

[@bobawatsit]

pretty messy down low, but what you would expect, I wish cam Co's would stick to SAE protocols, in which advertized duration is measured @ .006" and not .012" are these billet cams, or new cores. Valve springs ? The way I see it is, the inlet cam recommended LCA at 99 deg is already well advanced, and further adv really screws he bottom end-mid range for a bit of upper .... thanks for the great effort, Do you know how to work work back from lift to velocity then to acceleration rates at the lobe ?

[@bobawatsit]

should read fnlet cam well retarded by 7-8 deg

[@Garage4age]

yeah most "import" cams seem to be measured in mm. but end of day its just indication, can have 2 cams on similar paper but be vastly different. they are new cast cores, it has kelford beehive springs

[@bobawatsit]

@@Garage4age Their advertized duration is at 0.3 mm or .012" The SAE protocol reckonised 60 years ago was specified @ .015 mm or .006" , so that extra .006 " is worth about 2 > 3 odd cam dgrees either side of the lobe which is equal to 8 > 12 crank degrees So to me, if I was reading you cam, it would be around 310 duration The Europeans also like to spec their cams @ 1mm or 0.040" but the Yanks @ 0.050", which was a Harvey Crane measure of major intensity, esp for sloppy old V8 stuff ! I do not really take a lot of notice of this measure, as the more duration the cam has, you can bet your bottom $ the accel/decel ramp rates increase. But the dyno really tells the story ! thanks

[@TotoGeenen]

What oil do you use? Been thinking of switching to total quartz racing 10w50. But upon seeing your results, maybe I should stick to some w40 weight oil instead.

[@Garage4age]

Has 5w40 in it

[@TotoGeenen]

@@Garage4age I see. Thanks a lot!

[@Jeremy_Hill_2020]

I wish they made cams for the 7afe cause I want to know how my '96 Corolla 1.8 sounds like with upgraded cams lol

[@Carnerd-ri9xo]

It’s amazing how much power you get out of that a little in line 4 and what’s the capacity?

[@Garage4age]

1627cc

[@Carnerd-ri9xo]

The fact that you got A better horsepower per liter than a Porsche 918 Spyder

[@tommyboy1two]

Can you do a review of those cheap 16 valve cams that they sell on eBay lol speedgear is the brand I believe

[@466Kishan]

Ayeeee yes I wanna see this too because it's honestly tempting to pick up a set

[@tommyboy1two]

@@466Kishan same also nice hardtop I that picture I have one myself

[@RuiGTi]

10mm lift requires other shims right ? I have 192whp and I am thinking on upgrading

[@Garage4age]

Depends on cam design. Some of stock shim cams get close to 10mm. These ones need shimless or under shim tho

[@lewdog9647]

You must get a sore back from leaning over the engine bay so much making these videos!

[@hojnikb]

Looking at this, i can't imange what a freevalve like system would do for an engine like that. If system was fast enough, you could easily run insane amound of overlap and lift, while still getting a lot of low and midrange. Which with regular cams, is always a tradeoff of sorts.

[@liamjackson4454]

Hey man I’ve always been curious as to why people run itbs without tvis for low end torque, have you done testing to see if they ever work together?

[@Garage4age]

Tvis is the whole intake manifold. So without redesigning the whole system you'd have to mount the throttles on the end of the stock runners , which isn't really going to be a thing for alot of reasons.

[@WilliamMoser]

@@Garage4age definately not trying to tell you you to suck eggs here but IIRC the business part of TVIS is a sandwich plate that goes between the inlet manifold and the runners, it's just a butterfly in one of the two inlet runners per cylinder, not a dual length runner system or anything like that. That said I don't think an ITB adaptor bolts nicely to the manifold side of it (maybe you could bolt a backwards TVIS elimination plate between the ITB adaptor and the TVIS plate) and I don't think TVIS does much anyway, even on stock engines.

[@Garage4age]

@@WilliamMoser hey, yeah i'm saying the tvis plate will not work on its own. It works by reducing the diameter of the whole intake runner, increasing velocity. just using the plate without the 2 separate full length runners wont do anything, other than pose a restriction. I have a video that shows the small gains tvis makes.

[@WilliamMoser]

@@Garage4age there was me thinking it was more about promoting swirl, makes sense. I guess 8 tiny ITBs would work on an 8 runner manifold with TVIS.

[@aerofinisher]

Do you tested stock regrind cams?

[@sixhunt]

when you say 0 are you referring from stock centerlines or suggested centerlines ? cheers !

[@Garage4age]

approximately suggested centerlines. Could be 5 or so either way, as i just set it roughly when finding piston to valve clearance. do the final adjustments on dyno

[@sixhunt]

@@Garage4age cheers man !

[@timneva8104]

Hi, any info about the intake cam sensor? also thinking options to cop return signal and that the spot i did think i would do. Like Atlantic where from cam

[@Garage4age]

do you mean the sensor on the end of cam cover? its for my vvti setup. not being used on this engine atm

[@timneva8104]

Yeas.. that would be ok position to get second trikker to cop. Not using stock disruptor.. atlantic engine had near that on side. End of cam. i do have actuan tricker from altantic and maybe getting few of then to get ready to cams.

[@Garage4age]

@@timneva8104 Its easier to add a tooth to one of the cam gears.

[@timneva8104]

Altantic triccer fit just end of cam whit bolt.. so sick easy to mount

[@theangel540]

In Europe, we have Cat cams who are really great.

[@inaNis_]

My biggest question is what kind of wacky resonance/frequency/whatever the heck is causing that massive dip at 5500 rpm with the HVC's?

[@Garage4age]

reversion, can only fight it for so long. will happen with a lot smaller cams if setup is wrong, mostly exhaust side. If running cams big as the hvc, you're generally not worried about what the engine does under 6000rpm.

[@seekerofthetruths]

What octane and blend of fuel are you using? 93 E10?

[@Garage4age]

98 ron e10 in this video. which is the same usa 93. it will run on 95ron but close to knock.

[@sublunacy]

i wanna see some colt tri-flow cams. thank you

[@kevinmills5293]

Didn’t see any late exhaust valve runs?

[@Garage4age]

Piston to valve too tight. The way it reacted going the other way looks like it was in about the right place anyway

[@jamelbenkhalifa9991]

something is not clear in my mind, advancing exhaust (means exhaust close sooner) + retarding intake ( intake valve open later and close later) combined that gives less overlap than less scavanging since less opening at TDC = Give more power higher! how is that? someone explain please

[@Stale_Mahoney]

well i think you gotta think of it as in a high rpm situation you want to open the exhaust valve sooner as it would have less time to get the exhaust gasses out, and as the chamber empties of exhaust gass that has expended it will sent a pulse down the exhaust causing a vacuum in the the combustion chamber that the later opening intake valve will scavenge off because of the engine speed, and since the valve effectively will stay open for longer as the piston goes down it cause further vacuum for the air to flow for longer into the chamber. something that would not be as possible on lover revving engines but only for high revving applications if i am not to wrong (sorry if my english dont make me able to explain it perfectly)

[@Harry-uo2cr]

The most important event is intake closing at higher rpm you want intake to close later(it will close after bdc) the higher the intake air velocity the more can be rammed in even when the piston is coming back up but at lower velocity and lower rpm if it’s still open the piston comping up will push out the intake charge the next most important valve event is ex opening you need it to open sooner at higher rpm so it has a chance to clear together these too events are probably 90% of the equation and intake opening and exhaust closing are only the remaining 10% hence valve overlap is basically a by product of your cam duration combined with what the engine wants these two events to be

[@essb00]

I would want to see the VVT on the engine - but I understand with the rev range this one is making power on, the VVT is really not sensible (as you won't drive this daily anyway). :D

[@Garage4age]

will be adding the vvti to it. but will be swapping back to a different cam combo. should be able to get close to the numbers its making peak and gain all the midrange back

[@alsxwirth360]

How much torque does IT make?

[@Garage4age]

182nm if do the math from power and rpm. Probably 200nm at engine if factor in 10% drive line loss

[@hojnikb]

@@Garage4age That's an insane torque figure for an NA 1.6. That's close to 125nm/litre, beating the very famous F136 by a 5nm.

[@jareknowak8712]

8:39 - i see clearly "170" on the chart. 8:45 - "161,9kW" ?

[@Garage4age]

The small graph is the raw numbers dyno is seeing. no smoothing or correction, it gets a little wonky when power rolls over, dyno is pretty much as its max rated speed also. The big graphs have smoothing and weather station correction applied. was a "better" than standard day when doing these runs. from memory with no correction and just the smoothing was 165kw

[@jareknowak8712]

217whp, according the the "whp = bhp x 0,85" rule gives 255bhp.

[@jareknowak8712]

255hp /1,627ccm = 156hp/1Liter !!!

[@Garage4age]

I don't think driveline loss is that much on this car. 1:1 straight through gear, light flywheel, minimal accessorys, small wheels etc. maybe 10% loss. but yeah should be close to that magic 240hp mark

[@andli461]

@@Garage4age That power levels are totally insane! Close to 150 bhp/l is VERY good. In a street car to boot. 😃👌

[@Magovit]

217whp can made 7.5 ish on 201

[@suzukisport1]

Get a haircut

[@ky1e200]

Rego is out

[@subiekoala5026]

Thanks