Garand Thumb Ends 5.7X28mm

Recently Garand Thumb did a video on 5.7x28... and how it is the world's most okay cartridge. Today's video is a discussion on the 5.7x28 round, what is it good for? is 5.7 Pointless? or is there a reason this still exists besides marketing?
Mike's Video: • We Test How Deadly the...
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[@VSO_Gun_Channel]

Not that he needs any help from me, but Mike's Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWathax6rZxgqKs Also code "VSO" gets you 20% at MFT

[@goodcitizen64]

Hey brother, what brand adjustable gas block were you using while reviewing the point of impact between suppressed and unsuppressed? The link would be fantastic!

[@VSO_Gun_Channel]

⁠@@goodcitizen64I don’t put external links on KZbin anymore. The best gas block on the market is the Rifle Speed Gas Control.

[@BuffRANGE]

@@calebdavis3110pretty sure he used a 16” barrel.

[@josephthurman2062]

Random statement. The Ft. Hood shooter used a FN 57 pistol. He killed 13 and injured 30. Some of the injuries were none life threatening. I strongly agree that shot placement means the most.

[@Calqid]

Garand Thumb did no such thing as end 57. Thx for the link, and 57 proved to be exactly what we knew it to be… mediocre performing in neutered loadings and a short pistol barrel but the point of this round, IMHO, is to perform like the Gold Dot, at least, with mild recoil and superior logistics - A pocketful of 57 is chicken soup for the soul. It should have been .20VT or .221 FB but it’s not. It is a unique and capable rd and I have started rolling my own to better achieve my goals. BTW, my wife carries 9mm, because there is not yet a 57 or .22WMR compact in form factor and there was not a .380 P365. Use what makes you comfortable.

[@kevinbietry7527]

Never underestimate any round.

[@Dressed2KillTaye]

ANY!

[@busdrivrr888]

Never overestimate any round.

[@Dressed2KillTaye]

@@busdrivrr888 💯

[@kevinbietry7527]

@@busdrivrr888 You’re correct. Most people seem to just run away with one or the other biases.

[@ShastaBean]

and never underestimate the ability to hear a guy say that because something isn't 2x that it being 1.5x is "relatively the same velocity" amazing. haha

[@ericgerhardt1127]

The Garand Thumb video didn't "End 5.7". It was kind of a mixed bag with quotes like: "punching above it's weight", "pretty awesome", "like any round, 5.7 will f*ck you up", "I definitely wouldn't want to get shot with the 5.7 - it seems fairly effective from what I've seen.", and "the permanent cavity that it creates is pretty awesome", etc. Then at the end, GT says "This is slowly proving to be the most underwhelming round we've ever used". So, clear as mud. The 5.7 rounds he tested weren't really great ones, either.

[@ThrashTillDeth85]

Didn’t the video just prove that bullet selection and accuracy is more important than anything. Cause from what I saw the 9mm also sucked until he went to the G9, especially when he compared a Speer gold dot 5.7 round to whatever it was in 9mm

[@john-paulsilke893]

Absolutely. Accuracy is king, but sufficient power is Queen. If you miss neurological controls but still hit secondary vitals the 9mm will outperform, a little. But a little can be a lot, and every little bit counts.

[@K1Kamikaze]

Yes he only tested rounds known to be anemic. Elite ammunition t6 and vanguard black dragon gang get about 600 more FPS than the stuff he was testing. He didn’t even use quality FN ammo let alone the aftermarket stuff

[@UrbanDefenseSystems]

@@john-paulsilke893 Nah, Accuracy King, Penetration Queen, and "sufficient power" is that Jester that MIGHT come in clutch, in an already improbable situation to begin with (that being anyone getting into a gunfight)

[@robarmstrong5404]

@@john-paulsilke893 But I can fire 5.7 over 2x as fast with the same accuracy. No 9mm round is anywhere close to 2 hot 5.7 rounds. A mag dump feels like a PDW 9mm in terms of accuracy if I'm firing at the same rate/accuracy compared to a pistol 5.7

[@charleslowrey9309]

He only had Speer Gold Dot, and American Eagle ammo. Should have at least had some SS198 in the mix.

[@daequanloco8351]

Exactly... SS198LF is available and out of a handgun it goes about 9 inch in gel block, 2200 fps, 300 ft lbs. of energy, and goes through soft 3a body armor. Almost all 5.7x28 handguns have 20+ rounds in standard magazines too. Not sure where the hate comes from other than the small grain and loud crack out of it. Look up the fort hood shooting... 5.7x28 was the main firearm used.

[@immikeurnot]

@@daequanloco8351 9 inches is a fail on a gel test.

[@daequanloco8351]

@@immikeurnot according to the FBI because it’s if the suspect was facing his shoulder to you. Do you trust the FBI?

[@charleslowrey9309]

@@daequanloco8351 I have put some ss198 out of my five seven through a 3A vest that was out of date, but it did stop .44 mag out of my Henry at about 7 yards. I would carry the five seven in a load out as a side arm. It's light with high capacity, and has some range to it.

[@daequanloco8351]

@@charleslowrey9309 5.7x28 really is better than 9mm

[@justp1009]

5.7 is more accurate at further distances. That is an advantage!

[@ryanboyd362]

The Air Force had pretty good results with 5.7 out of a p90 against Jaff armor for years. So I guess its not a complete fail 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@immikeurnot]

That's legitimate AP ammo, which we can't get, out of a subgun, which we can't get.

[@rdsmith334]

Agreed. Colonel O’Neill (and Teal’c) really did the heavy lifting, when it came to proving the 5.7’s effectiveness.

[@Subtlenimbus]

Yes, but not on Earth.

[@henrykfu]

Definitely better than the Ma'Tok staff

[@ryanboyd362]

@@Subtlenimbus pretty sure it was on earth as well on a couple occasions however if memory serves me the Marines held the earth side down with m16s most of the time, so fair.

[@jimtheedcguy4313]

I want to add on the subject of rimfire reliability. It’s not so much the priming compound itself as it is how evenly it’s spread along the bottom of the rim. They’re mass produced and you’ll occasionally get cartridges where the compound wasn’t evenly spread across the bottom of the rim, and that’s what causes a lot of failures to fire. But yes I do agree, rimfires in a semi auto aren’t reliable enough to bet your life on.

[@nateginter1234]

Exactly, his premise around rimfires was off.

[@jimtheedcguy4313]

@@nateginter1234 to be fair, not a lot of people realize exactly how rimfire cartridges are made and just the sheer amount they make at once. It would be impossible to have perfect QC on every single cartridge.

[@whim6287]

My problem with Garand Thumb's video was that he was using watered down cartridges like the Spear Gold Dot. That said, the 5.7 is a niche cartridge with a niche use and I'm not trading my Glock 17 for one anytime soon.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

true, but thhe fancy cartridges are actually a controlled product. FN only sells the cool rounds to police or military customers. FN is pro-police state.

[@PracticalTacticalSheepDog]

Exactly, 5.7 is much like 10mm in the fact that most factory ammo is very watered down. Elite Ammo, Vanguard Outfitters or 80 teeth would have been dramatically more impressive.

[@Beardman56]

I know absolutely nothing about 5.7 but generally spear gold dot isn't considered a weak loading in any caliber unless I'm just way off

[@PracticalTacticalSheepDog]

@@Beardman56 Speer Gold Dot 10mm comes to mind.... It's basically loaded to 40 Smith & Wesson specs.

[@Beardman56]

@@PracticalTacticalSheepDog well hell guess I'm just a sucker then. Oh well I don't carry any Speer. Thanks for the info

[@popinmo]

5.7 isnt bad its advantages are weight, ammo capacity,recoil , armor penatration for all these reasons id have to go with a 5.7 in a combat scenario where these things are very important

[@bower31]

The 5.7 armor penetration is way overstated even with the military loads. Modern tests have implied it struggles with even soft armor and even if it does go through produces extremely minimal wounds

[@popinmo]

it does fine vs soft armor 9mm does good to but a regular 5.7 will do better then a stanard 9mm @@bower31

[@bower31]

@@popinmo lmao no even black tip 5.7 struggled to penetrate the 6b30 armor it was designed for in 1993, it has trouble with modern IIIA armor, and even then only from a P90, from a pistol you'll get nothing but pathetic ballistics

[@popinmo]

6b30 is a very odd armor design and it not a good basis for testing sorry but i know what im talking about 6b30 is a thin steel sheet with 2a kevlar behind it 9mm also wont go through that @@bower31

[@popinmo]

second to that soft armor performance 5.7 will do better then 9mm will vs 3a soft armor most soft armors will stop 9mm only 3a can stop 5.7 and 5.7ap rounds will absoluty go though 3a soft armor @@bower31

[@tamisthewizard3199]

The big thing is that all these 'myths' come from AP 5.7 which is impossible to get anymore.

[@chaoticdeertick7213]

The full auto sub gun it was designed for is impossible to get.

[@PracticalTacticalSheepDog]

It's not..... I ordered some black dragon fang from Vanguard Outfitters a month ago. It cuts through Kevlar like it's not there.

[@2ndarymotion]

@@PracticalTacticalSheepDog Post the vid of your test.

[@PracticalTacticalSheepDog]

@@2ndarymotion I actually think I will, I do videos on my channel. Happen to have a 3A panel laying around and happen to have several very potent 5.7 loads on hand.

[@tamisthewizard3199]

@@PracticalTacticalSheepDog I was misinformed it appears. If I get a 5.7 i'll take a gander

[@dastarddizaster]

I have a CMMG Banshee pistol and a binary trigger. I have pistol uppers in 9mm and 5.7x28. I have more than 1000 rounds of various tests in each format with a large variety of ammunition in each caliber. With my tests, especially at distance, 5.7x28 gets more hits at distances out to 100 yards in binary mode. I agree that it is more expensive but prices have been coming down. It does have less recoil for weak off hand shooting scenarios while maintaining better accuracy than 9mm. I've used specialty ammo that exceeds 2500+ fps with 40gr monolithic rounds. They do have around 500lbft of energy and very good penetration in car doors, 2x4 and 4x4 wood, straight paths through 24" of gel and in a few tests, exceeded 16" after level 3 soft armor. It is a niche cartridge but isn't necessarily deserving of the hate. It isn't a glorified. 22 magnum, especially in pistol length barrels.

[@geronimo5537]

If people who claim 5.7 is weak are using 5.7 blue tip or federal fmj. These are the weakest rounds. Try some SS198LF, it trucks out of the barrel at 2,000 fps and does a much better job. The specialized ammo goes even higher to about 2,500 fps. 5.7 is half the case of a 223/556. Which is why it punches through layer things better than most pistol calibers due to the smaller diameter bullet. I have personally carried the FN57 as my daily carry for twelve years and some better/cheaper options out on the market now. It is a great round, and does even better with hotter specialized loads. Which the same can be said for any pistol caliber. I call it my pocket rifle because it shoots so flat. Also through my professional training. I could often out perform the majority of other people in class on the range with it. Where I could rapid fire accurately and they would have more spread. It only really struggled against the heavier knock down steel targets. Car doors or glass were never a problem.

[@Gwydion_Wolf]

At the end of a day, a bullet is a bullet. They 'all' can kill, and many calibers (even 9mm) can take multiple shots to do the job. When it is all said and done, you pick what you are 'comfortable' using, and can use effectively. Personally, i have the 5.7x28 and i plan to keep it. Because i 'like' how it fires flat, doesn't snap as bad for me, and the less-snappiness allows me to fire it faster and still retain accuracy. My EDC and the "bump in the night" AR-pistol i have are both in 5.7x28. I have a Ruger SFAR in 308 for anything bigger i need (like hunting or such).

[@andrewg.2165]

OMG 🤦🏼‍♂️…they tested Speer gold dot…slow and heavy. SS198LF I have chronograph over 2200FPS. BOTH CHANNELS have messed this comparison up…not saying 5.7 is the best round ever but this is false

[@ericpewpew_rn5294]

It’s a fun cartridge and is like you said, a more powerful .22 magnum. I choose 300 Blackout for my self-defense rifles and 9mm/10mm for my handguns. Those .22 cal bullets can only expand so much at the end of the day.

[@jefferyboring4410]

It’s less than 50 grains from a pistol barrel it’d need to be a 556x 70 or better from a 6” barrel

[@Valorius]

It is twice as powerful as 22 magnum

[@jebe4563]

@@Valorius With a 40 gr projectile 22 Magnum is reasonably doing 1,875 fps out of a Rifle barrel. 5.7 with a 40 gr projectile is maybe 2,200 fps out of an AR57, and around 2,000 fps out of the intended ~10" barrel platform. Given you need a velocity difference of at least 200 fps in order for it to be significant... The difference between a 22 Magnum Rifle and 5.7 from its intended platform or a P50 is negligible. There is only a difference when we're talking a 5.7 Rifle versus a 22 Magnum Rifle, and while sufficient to be significant it is a marginal difference. Ergo the reasonable assessment is that the reasonable expectation is that 5.7 in ballistic terms is marginally more powerful than 22 Magnum with advantages laying in being a centerfire cartridge and a norm of Spitzer style bullets versus the RN style normal to 22 WMR, like the 22 Hornet. In turn gelatin testing demonstrates that as a rule 5.7 bullets will tumble without meaningful deformation. Mind your statement would have been accurate however if you were describing 22 Hornet instead of 5.7. The reality however ultimately is that the 5.7 does not amount to a more compact version of the 22 Hornet.

[@Trump-or-Die]

Same here.

[@seang1032]

Even with the unobtainable AP 5.7, the round itself was designed to be shot from the p90 or longer barrel variants vs these handguns chambered in 5.7. It's like using a 7.5" AR with federal 40gr or even 55gr and heavier(not sure of those ballistics out of a 7.5" barrel except for velocity

[@shawnsanders9450]

Thats all well and good but the results from the rifle they had didn't look much better. Especially after seeing that if I ever get a 5.7 it will be a fun range toy. Nothing more. 300blk 10" AR's exist. 10mm PDW's exist. 5.56 exist and is cheaper to shoot.

[@Valorius]

AAC V-Max and Speer Gold Dot both defeat level 3a from a short P90 Barrel. In fact in James Reeves tests he was able to defeat several types of 3A from a handgun with AAC VMAX

[@Valorius]

​@@shawnsanders9450a single 556 ammo can hold 1200 rounds of 5.7 mm, and it's about half the weight of 9mm. It also has vastly less recoil than any other rounds you mentioned

[@shawnsanders9450]

@@Valorius would you like to retype this?

[@Valorius]

@@shawnsanders9450 Why, would it make you less wrong?

[@aaronhelms173]

The first thing I will say is that both are great defensive rounds. 5.7 gets a bad wrap because the ammunition is not what it is supposed to be. Most ammo you can get today is a 40 grain projectile doing about 1600 to 1700 fps out of a full-size handgun. The proper loading is a 27 grain projectile doing 2200 to 2250 fps. When loaded correctly, the 5.7 creates a devastating wounds in its intended target. Not to mention that a 27 grain projectile produces far less recoil than a 124 grain projectile. It is also more accurate because of velocity, meaning faster flight or less time it is in the air, the less it is affected by gravity and wind. It is by far the most advanced handgun ammunition available today and that is one of the reasons the government has done its best to neuter and limit the availability of the proper loading. a long light projectile doing 2200 fps will ballistically outperform 115-124 9mm doing 1100-1200 fps any day of the week.

[@rogerlittle354]

The p 90 was developed before the pistol, the pistol was developed to augment the carbine. Love your channel. I have a Jane's weapons from 1990 showing the p 90 .

[@reloader1962]

I love the 5.7, for a reloader of 28 calibers it is just another case to play with, no one cartridge does it all and I don’t understand why so many guys will complain they come out with a new cartridge, like they did with the 6,5creed.

[@johndecker9983]

No replacement for shot placement

[@Valorius]

The conclusion I got from the gthumb video is that 5.7 is absolutely lethal and absolutely has less recoil. The rest of the conclusions he did not even delve into is the fact that 5.7 mm ammo is extremely Compact and compact lightweight compared to 9mm or 5.56. A 540rd 556mm ammo can holds 1200 rounds of 5.7.

[@TheTGRproductions]

But a 540 round can of 5.56 would cost you about $250 to $300. 1,200 rounds of 5.7 will cost you about $1,200 lmao

[@Valorius]

@@TheTGRproductions 1200rds of AAC Vmax is $720 on the PSA website. Also, cost is irrelevant to someone who is not poor.

[@dennismartin1204]

Sir, I've had SOME misfires with .22 lr but not as much as you seem to say is possible. I believe that the modern firing pin in newer guns seem to be part of the problem. My old .22 lr never misfire. I've had trouble with .17 hmr and SOME in .22 mag using Hornady ammo. Outside of that my older guns function perfectly with ALL ammo except Hornady. I save all the dead rounds and re-fire them at the end of the day and have had 75% firing again. If they don't they're in the trash. I love your content and just discovered you today. Thank you for your teaching and taking the time out of your busy day for knuckleheads like me. Aloha

[@Mowmer]

If youre looking to get the best 5.7 ammo and think its from a big box store youre doing it wrong. Mike should have used elite ammo, vanguard outfitters, etc for testing. Those arent wonder bullets but much better energy than what was used.

[@nateginter1234]

Exactly, but wonder boy and his girlfriend got the midpipe post syndrome...thinking visual is everything. Makes me wonder If they cheated and were blowing crayons earlier in life?

[@conro7003]

I second this. Idk what the other guy is on abt tho.

[@Loyal69]

Dude at $2 a round, go away. 5.7 is trash

[@Mowmer]

@@Loyal69 the poors need to cope harder, lol. Reread my post bud, 5.7 has it's place but it's not without limitations.

[@nunyabusiness1755]

The ammo he used is the most widely available, which is what the majority of people will be using

[@cristianespinal9917]

Another issue with the 5.7 is handloading, which I find to be an important point for such an expensive round. I keep looking at a Ruger 57 at an LGS and it looks incredibly fun. When I looked into handloading, it seems to have some extra complexities that I didn't like. It's a pistol cartridge that reloads like a finnicky rifle cartridge.

[@Tony_Seed]

I’ve loaded thousands of rounds, it’s the same as any other round. Clean it, Size it, trim it, primer powder bullet bang

[@cristianespinal9917]

@@Tony_Seed fair. The issues I read about that were a bit of a turn off were these. Obviously no first-hand experience, just repeating what I've read online: 1. Case life is supposedly pretty short. 2. I read it requires regular trimming, where I almost never trim straight-wall pistol-caliber brass. 3. You have to lube the cases and can't use carbides like with straight-walls. None of those are deal-breakers to me, but are a bit off-putting features in something I would reload in large quantities in a single-stage turret press. That would change if/when I get into an auto-indexing progressive setup, but I doubt I'm going to get one very soon.

[@Walru5hunter]

Need to case lube it well too

[@jefferyboring4410]

@@cristianespinal9917I reload a lot on a shoe string budget.556 is my favorite, cheapest easiest to reload . U gotta lube every bottle neck round. I use cheap white lithium grease in a can I had laying around. Every2-3 rds u gotta trim ya but it’s easy I use a world’s cheapest trimmer it’s 20$ In a drill it’s stupid fast. Because the pressure is so high on 556 but a short 5.7 probably won’t need so much. Ppl let weird preconceived notions control them. 556 I reload for 23c a rd the components are most common of all. The hard part about reloading is finding cheap components. I’d advise u to reload 556 first and foremost. Even the dies are cheapest in 556, lee dies etc are good . I chamfer crimped primer pockets with a big drill bit by hand. Never clean my brass ever at all only trim and reload. Eventually the neck will crack somewhere between 6-15 shots brass is only 7c each online used . No excuses 200$ your golden. I reloaded 500mag in a vise only a vise. Just don’t put pistol powder in a rifle. Finding powder I like cheap is my main thing. I use Bosnian primers their very good and cheap. Pistol or rifle small in 556 works fine

[@JimFosterVO]

Jeff Cooper once commented on the 5.7 armor penetration claims. In response he said something along the lines of "So once it's through, what's such a tiny bullet supposed to do once it gets there?"

[@Nathan-jh1ho]

Probably a .22lr by the time it makes it through

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

@@Nathan-jh1ho pretty much from what I've seen when people test the theory.

[@Justowner]

Its gonna do alot more than the round that didnt get there that's for sure.

[@popinmo]

actually it would likely deform mushroom alot and cause a shiton of damage

[@327Federal]

@@JustownerThat’s a Fact

[@Dj_family1]

9mm is between 1100 and 1200 and 5.7 is 1900 and 2300

[@coldfront7914]

I don't think what GT tested broke 1700 in the pistol

[@TheKittehboi]

1 thing to keep in mind, that energy is an equation where the velocity is squared, so a 50% increase in speed could easily increase energy by over 100% assuming the weights are the same. Of course 5.7 weighs substantially less. That being said, my g9 9mm ammo out of my 5.5" barrel goes just as fast as the 5.7 and weighs twice as much so... grain of salt and all that lol

[@2IDSGT]

Same people who dump on 5.7 all like “gib MP7.” 😆

[@grumpyoldretiredcop8382]

Everybody forgets that one; the 5.7 was fielded in the P90 as a PDW, not in a pistol. Two, its effectiveness was partly based on a "swarm of bees" theory, lots of rounds fired in full-auto by support troops who somehow found themselves attacked in a rear area. Three, it was fielded with a round designed to defeat body armor, a round that isn't available to most of us. Anybody who calls the 5.7X28 comparable to the .22 Magnum can't do math. Pure and simple. Relax, Garand Thumb hasn't killed the 5.7. But, improved armor and the non-availability of the original AP load for just about all of us has greatly reduced the effectiveness of the round. I have a PS90 and Ruger 57; neither one would be my first choice as defensive firearms. However, take a look at Garand Thumb's ballistic gelatin tests, especially the slow-motion footage. When was the last time you saw a 9MM bullet do what some of those 5.7 rounds did? It's not a pistol round, it's a reduced size (and effectiveness) rifle round.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

You can purchase better than the "original AP load". The AP load is just the mythical excuse.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

for years I have said 5.7 is 22 mag centerfire, but it does have 3 advantages, it's centerfire and is therefore more reliable, it is rimless which is more reliable, and it has better bullet construction. but its energy and effect on target is not great. it beats a pointy stick by a country mile, but it is less than ideal. pack what you want, just be aware of the strengths and weaknesses of what you carry.

[@PracticalTacticalSheepDog]

And for years you have been misinformed.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

@@PracticalTacticalSheepDog lets see, a .224 caliber projectile (same) at lets say 30 grains traveling 2300 fps (same). it can pull that velocity with a shorter barrel, which is good, but the weight, velocity and projectile diameter is the same. I already said the bullet construction is better. are they the exact same? no, I pointed out multiple differences. are they comparable? yes. they share many of the same aspects. I'm not sure where I am misinformed, maybe you can validate your statement, lest it be ruled out with Hitchen's razor.

[@PracticalTacticalSheepDog]

@@sinisterthoughts2896 Full power 5.7x28 smokes 22mag. 22mag from an 18in rifle barrel is about the ballistics you get from cheaper plinking Ammo out a pistol barrel in 5.7 ........ If you go full power ammo versus full power ammo with the same length barrels 5.7 is making 40% more ftlbs of energy. That's like saying a 308 is basically a 300win mag because the bullet diameters are the same and they can be loaded with similar weight bullets. Uninformed argument.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

@@PracticalTacticalSheepDog do you have a reading comprehension issue? I addressed your point before you made it. You keep repeating what I say as if you are informing me. Seriously, you seem to not be reading my comments and just responding to shield your bias.

[@PracticalTacticalSheepDog]

@@sinisterthoughts2896 We are 100% not saying the same thing. 🤡

[@wvdave771]

Great vid , back to roots

[@CLEDUSSNOW3000]

Great you group of gentleman stop buying it so there will be plenty of supply for me! I appreciate you!

[@Sheppard2030]

Great food for though! Thank you.

[@GONAVYCHIEF]

Interesting views. Best of luck.

[@bruinflight1]

I like the PS90 because it looks cool... It's a funky firearm and 5.7 is a little too polite of a round.

[@NCrdwlf]

Im sitting on two spam cans of 7.62 tokarev . Thats my poors answer to the high velocity question.

[@VSO_Gun_Channel]

I love tokarev. My brother has an encore in it that we put a huge can on.

[@BrettBaker-uk4te]

​@@VSO_Gun_ChannelDo you make some of JD Jones' 7.62 Mini loads for it.

[@NCrdwlf]

@@VSO_Gun_Channel Nice . I'd like to see a short vid on that. I just have Romanian TT33.

[@TrippyRiddimKid]

A little known fact is that certain subsonic loads can penetrate 3a, which allows for very effective silenced shots against aggressors with armor. This, when paired with low recoil for fast follow up shots, maybe throw in some "fun" triggers, makes for a VERY effective cqb/pdw round.

[@mitchculpepper738]

Exactly what subsonic round will penetrate 3a!! Speed is what defeats armor unless your talking about back face deformation and shooting 1 lb projectile out of a 4 bore!

[@TrippyRiddimKid]

@@mitchculpepper738 you should watch buffmans stuff on 5.7 round testing ;)

[@PatriotPaulUSA]

So much wrong with this I just cant.

[@TrippyRiddimKid]

@PatriotPaulUSA SB193 can penetrate MULTIPLE layers of 3a. There are videos of it if you take 2 minutes to look. SB193 is a subsonic round, and is very quiet when suppressed. There are delayed blowback systems for 5.7x28 that makes recoil ridiculously low. Those systems also happen to be usable with various reset technologies and full auto FCGs. The only thing wrong with this was your reply.

[@robertwilkinson2293]

FYI, in 1993 we were wearing level IIIA armor in LE. You are probably talking about the old 2nd chance vests in the 1970's many that were still in use in the early 1980's.

[@nateginter1234]

I agree, he wasn't accurate and spoke like an idiot in this post. Mikey must have called him up after he himself got blasted.

[@Darth_Boons]

I will say, I've never had an issue with cci 22 mag it's always been reliable but, I'm not trying to say people should use it. I just think 22 mag is a little bit higher quality than 22 lr when you buy a good brand.

[@eddieb9110]

I feel like failure rate is a quality thing. I have shot a lot of cci, had no problems I can remember at least. I do remember plenty of problems with bulk bucket .22lr. I have also seen problems with cheap 9mm.

[@Fla5thgenTryMe]

I said the same.

[@gloriamaletta8667]

I'm sticking with my 357 SIG even if it isn't popular and declining in popularity it is a very under rated awesome round a 125 grain bullet going 1400+fps is all l need the 5.7 only goes 1700 - 1750fps with a 30 - 40 grain bullet from a 5 inch handgun l had a TCM 22 double stack 1911 that the bullet is not as good of a design as the 5.7 but it propels a 40 grain bullet 1950 -2000+ fps out of a 5 inch barreled pistol and it feels better in your hand than the 5.7 pistol does by far

[@hillbilly4christ638]

A rimless cartridge with the same format as a .22 magnum would get the job done. Cost is one thing. Manufacturers are reluctant to develop a new cartridge that may not do well. If .22 mag could be made more reliable you might have something. So, if a round were effective and cheap in the .22 format, you might have a winner. A lot of these new designer rounds have suffered availability issues and then there is the price. In the meantime, we stick with the reliable format that doesn’t break the bank.

[@Malpaise_Legate]

I've read a report that both SS190 and SS197 struggled to penetrate, and even if it did manage to do so, would not cause significant damage on targets wearing (the now common) Lightweight IIIA armor. I had previously assumed the stories about the capabilities of 5.7x28mm were exaggerated in favor of the cartridge, and now with GarandThumb's video: I feel I can trust my instincts on the matter a bit more. After all, it's a cartridge that costs more than $0.70 per round, and only marginally outperforms .22 Magnum on tissue, if at all. Edit: Corrected error in intended message. Changed .22LR to .22 Magnum.

[@mrleomich]

No sir. I don’t support novelty or Gucci anything for obvious reasons, but these 5.7 rounds, sub or super, has countless videos showing it defeats L2A and even L3A armor, EASILY. JUST BROWSE IT AND WATH THEM!

[@shogunender8752]

I still think it’s a pretty cool round that has been used successfully before. I love the p90 and the 57 designs but it is a very small projectile that is mostly meant for armor piercing capability compared to 9mm when it was designed. Either pistol caliber is alright if you get special rounds it will do damage no matter what all that matters is reliability as well as being able to put rounds on target effectively to get rid of a threat. The best for that kind of thing would be 9mm but you can use 45 acp or whatever else. I’m big into 45 acp I would just carry a double stacked gun no matter what.

[@TeamMadcrew]

i have a ps90 for home defense. 22LR for affordable training. i'd like to see a .22LR kit for the ps90. i also have a 9mm pcc, but ammo hasn't dropped enough yet for weekend training.

[@heerosanosyuy1173]

On a tangent. Any company could make a arms platform in any caliber with a hardened barrel & make the fastest(safest) ammo even if it shortens the barrel life significantly. If they want high velocity munitions.

[@nozrep]

i have not yet even bought my first pistol. planning to get a g2c. But also, i just discovered the 17 WSM on some videos. Now I want that instead of 5.7. They make an ar version of it

[@srbontrager]

Here's my gripe with 5.7x28 mm. Whenever there's an ammo shortage, it's one that ammo manufacturers will put on the back burner in order to focus on the higher demand calibers(223/5.56 and 9mm). Then there's price. According to ammoseek at the time of this comment, 9mm can be had for as little as 16cpr. Now, wait for it. 5.7 at its cheapest is 38.9cpr. That is more than fkn twice the cost of 9mm. NOPE! I'm so glad I didn't fall for that hype train.

[@bozo572]

watching gun snobs back peddling is priceless

[@davidjernigan8161]

If I wanted expensive ammo and an expensive gun to go with it I would get a 7.5 FK. At least it has the horsepower the 5.7 doesn't.

[@mountainhombreforge5876]

They have major issues with ammo and ammo is only imported. We picked one up and it’s an expensive paperweight.

[@ej_22]

7.5 fk?

[@brianleabo6295]

You also have to remember less recoil and ability to stack rounds ! Then you have swat useing the mp7 . Its good for whats its ment for ! And it well kill and go throw soft armor ! The new guns beside the p90 . Like the rock , ruger and smith are nice guns ! And i forget how said it but. The ones how wins gun fights are the ones how can put more led down range . So that being said its a good gun for whats its ment for as a side arm or room cleaner!

[@bryanengland2466]

XDME 9mm 20rd vs sw 5.7 22rd also I loved the anecdote "please stop shooting me with that thing" in his video

[@PatriotPaulUSA]

Even the 223 Rem based 22TCM outperforms 5.7 and it has been much, much ,cheaper to shoot for many years, and still is. Even with 5.7's now growing popularity. I would still chose a 9mm for self defense tho. I think either 5.7 or 22TCM may be better for folks with weak hand/arm strength, elderly, or small female shooters, possibly. Training is always key tho as he said. Shot placement.

[@puma51921]

If I'm going to shoot at distance over pistol range, I'll take a 223. If I'm carrying a pistol, i want a ccw that is effective and comfortable to conceal. That's a 9mm . For me, 5.7 pistol is too big and bulky for what you get from it.

[@Jesses001]

I like the 5.7 for some tasks, but it is not the end all be all of pistol calibers. It has trade offs like all calibers.

[@BronzFor]

i haven't watched this channel in like 5 years, i come back and this guy aged 20 years

[@logansmith8553]

I had to pause and discontinue the video after he seemed like a skeptic about the round having less recoil, more capacity, and is quicker to get back on target. Those are simply facts, not to mention it is in fact flatter shooting.

[@sieve5]

4:00 I'd argue 7.62x39 has killed the most people just for the sheer fact that roughly 1:5 of all the small arms that exist are AK pattern rifles.

[@stevefowler1347]

I was surprised that he dismissed the ammo capacity argument: the simple, obvious fact is that the 5.7mm has a much smaller width than a 9mm. That's not a matter of "today's" conditions: that's a matter of measurement. All things being equal, the 5.7 mm will allow for more rounds.

[@PotatoHeaded]

I think 5.7 is best when you put all of your skill points into rate of fire, mobility, and recoil management. Rapid fire from a braced PDW with a foregrip and an 6-10" barrel would be devastating out to 25 yards or so, being both lightweight and controllable. One day I hope to own something like that... If the first round from my poor man's P90 doesn't do the trick, over the next 2 seconds, the following 10 shots within a softball-sized area should do the trick. That said, with any more elbow room to work with, I'm grabbing any basic bitch AR if the barrel is 10+ inches.

[@johnl5974]

very informative video, I enjoy your calm, reasoned presentation.

[@tgbeam]

What's funny is Lucky Gunner kicked the 5.7 while it was down today lol

[@SaltyMaverick]

I am not running 5.7 in a PDW platform for any sort of serious use unless it's fully automatic, and that's not happening until the NFA, FOPA, etc. is repealed.

[@sleigh4019]

So cost? So should manufacture start using 22tcm ? More for cost over what you get ..self defense , lose those extra 4-7 rounds ? Or should it just be left to the side

[@nicoscarfo4486]

If you use neutered commercially available 5.7×28 thats loaded nowhere near the max pressure of 50,038, then yeah, glorified 22wmr, the difference between shooting watered down FNH 5.7 and custom 5.7 loaded close to max pressure, is like the difference of shooting any 5.7 through a pistol compared to shooting it through a 16" barrel, so firing custom 5.7 through your pistol is like firing FNH 5.7 through your 16" P90

[@coziii.1829]

5.7 is my all time carry now .

[@REVOLVER_NOIR]

5.7 is to .22magnum as .25acp is to 22LR.

[@ShastaBean]

I'd say it's like 22 mag is to 22 LR...where pistol vel = the other's rifle vel. I've never seen .25 acp in a rifle.

[@micahbrown8259]

I have a fn ps90 and ill keep it. Great for women etc

[@MrCannonls]

How’d you get those stairs past code?

[@gmyza4849]

5.56 but twice as expensive and half as good when most "big boy" pistol rounds are cheaper, deadlier and have just as much capacity

[@Orphican]

You can fit 30 rounds in a pistol!?

[@pARabell9mm]

My only gripe about 5.7 is ammo cost. Just like every round out there, sometimes the over-hype leads to disappointment. I like the capacity, shootability, and just plain fun of the round, but hate the $50 per box at my local gun shop.

[@NobdyInfinite]

Ammo costs are below 5.56.

[@pARabell9mm]

@@NobdyInfinite 5.7 is dollar a shot. 5.56 is around .69 ish a round in my area. Yes, I'm one of those folks who prefers buying from someone behind a counter.

[@NobdyInfinite]

@@pARabell9mm It looks like youtube has shadow banned my replies im not sure whats going on.

[@pARabell9mm]

@@NobdyInfinite go figure. It's not like free speech is important or anything...

[@NobdyInfinite]

@@pARabell9mm I get it, I have multiple NFA items so anonymity is not a concern for me. Ammoseek has allowed me to save 50% or more on my ammo costs and as a competitive shooter it has allowed me to continue my hobby without needing to get a second job.

[@derictripp9245]

And my 5.7 smith wesson shoots so smooth the but i do practice with by nomeans is it a 1n dun

[@DadHominem]

The 5.7 has lower recoil, is flat shooting, and has good magazine capacity. For rodent use, the 5.7 is awesome. For self-defense, 5.7 is lacking in energy delivery unless you're using it in a sub-gun (full auto) like the Secret Service uses. In a compact, full-auto weapon, 5.7 is great. Like .22 magnum or even .380 auto, 5.7 is too anemic for self-defense in a one-shot-at-a-time pistol. Energy delivery & transfer, and wound size and type matter - and on those issues 5.7 doesn't cut it.

[@mark63366]

Pistols are pistols, and rifles are rifles.

[@ryanj610]

A 5.7 with 198LF has DOUBLE the ft/lbs of a PMR 30.... it is NOT a .22 WMR.

[@wisewhiterabbit]

im curious if liberty amunition created a civil defense round, would it be viable, then.

[@burnsidepdx]

The NKVD extensively used the .22LR for decades for summary executions.

[@PatriotPaulUSA]

A whole lot different from self defense , or wartime stuff. Communist poor counties use whatever they can find the absolute cheapest, to execute their prisoners even if it takes a long time for them to pass. They are truly evil in what they do.

[@jimmyvancleef3593]

It makes sense for an actual pdw. You need bursts.

[@dastarddizaster]

I do sick mag dumps with my 8" Banshee. It does perform better (more hits on 8" steel gongs) than my 9mm upper on the AR at all distances out to 100 yards in binary mode bursts.

[@nilescoyote4829]

Watch some of the after action reports from Jack O'NEAL... many times an adversary would require 2 or more bursts from SG1 squad members P90's before they were successful in stopping the fight.

[@AnimalPriestessOfT4C]

I think 5.7 is mismarketed and misapplied, like 30SC (and the price killed it). 30SC is marketed as the "better than 9mm" round but its price ruined it, it was sold in guns that have less capacity than most 9mm guns, and it should have been what replaces the role of 380ACP, not 9mm. 5.7 is marketed as the ultimate high capacity AP round but should have been marketed as what could replace 22LR, but the price and "AP" sensationalism kept it from doing that. I personally don't care if it pierces armor, I like everything else conceptually about the 5.7 in regard to a being a round for a short carbine or AR pistol/subgun except the price.

[@daveknight8410]

What you compared it to a rifle round. It's a reduced recoil hand gun round for pen pushers & other r echelon m.f.that is easy to carry, maintenance personnel drives etc can use a ps90 ( submachine gun ) its for amateur personnel. Like American HQ officers in ww1&2 oten carried a 380 . Horses for courses.

[@Maniac742]

The downside to 5.7 is always finding ammunition.

[@markrippt4677]

I LOVE the 5.7, but... 9mm ammo is soooooo good now i have given up 40 S&W and 45 and 10mm for carry, truck gun and home defense. Liberty Ammo Ulta Light +P is faster, heavier, and .355 caliber. I am waiting for Fort Scott to load a 5.7 TUI before i would ever consider it for carry.

[@PatriotPaulUSA]

I will wait to see an actual ammo testing with that new 9mm Ultra light +P the company wont even list what grain weight the projectile is. That combined with the fact that most companies almost Never hit the velocity figures that they advertise makes me very doubtful. Maybe they will be one of the 1st to do it however, we shall see. They are using a really good Shellshock technologies stainless 2 pc case which is almost infinitely reloadable in 9mm, and is easily picked up with magnets so that is a good start at least. I found 1 video of 380 acp testing but they only got 1 round to fire and had tried 5 rounds out of a brand new box. Liberty reached out and said they had some primer problems as they were not able to get CCI primers. It did hit its 1500fps velocity and went about 11.25" in clear ballistics gel tho.

[@heliowolf5042]

Is 5.7 significantly easier to shoot at long pistol ranges like 100 yards?

[@VSO_Gun_Channel]

The word significantly is a problem word. I don’t see a confidence interval associated with the question. I would say likely not. Most of the time when people miss at 100y with a handgun it was them, not the capabilities of the gun.

[@granitejeepc3651]

any pistol can shoot long distance....easier to hit at 100yards ...yes...way easier

[@nicoscarfo4486]

Higher velocities cause overstretched permanent wound cavities, this is why a 62gr 5.56 is far more deadly than 147gr 9mm

[@jkellyid]

I can't comment on the loads Garand Thumb used. Sweet video, well done. And may have exposed the king issue the round faces... very lack luster loads relative to its capability. And the silly premium associated with them. I do wonder if we might see some hand loaders chime in here. 5.7 has 9% less pressure SAAMI spec case pressure than 556 at about half the size. If you make up that loss of pressure with a decrease in projectile mass there is a 100% capability for the round to say exceed the performance of a short barreled AR. Yes, that means you could get a harder hitting round from a P90 than from a MK18. I won't comment on how it performs in a pistol. Its not really a pistol round its an intermediate cartridge that can fit in a hand gun... like 357 mag. I can't even confirm that there are any commercially available loads that come anywhere near the SAAMI potential. So my digest for 5.7 is similar to 300 black, sick potential, weak sauce retail offerings. Both of those rounds are IMHO rounds of the future. Not that we will ever experience that potential ever. :( It is honestly an odd phenomena, 45 ACP in my estimation has suffered here as well, 308 too. Being THE round, the #1 round as 556 and 9mm are today gets you all manner of development and refinement.

[@nestorarcilaosorio2457]

Elite Ammo, R&R and Vanguard Outfitters are quite close to the full potencial of the round

[@docbois_3055]

The actual AP rounds were made by F&N an was discontinued when they found out it's performance on vest. It was sold as a regular round

[@willheines4]

What color is that room? Looks like purple almost but grey at the same time.

[@VSO_Gun_Channel]

It’s a purple with grey tones . I was a chemist in a former life and one of the labs I worked in dealt with color chemistry. Purple is the opposite of yellow. By using a purple paint the bouncing light can be filtered substantially of yellow tones. You don’t want to go dark purple though because it will just darken the room

[@willheines4]

@VSO_Gun_Channel interesting. I'm not a fan of the "warm" yellow color temperature lights, so maybe I should add paint like this to really keep it clean on top of my lights haha.

[@072381Mack]

I'm thinking about how good it'll be on small game from a Ruger LC carbine.

[@Jammaster1972]

me2. Thinking once the price comes down this round would be pretty accurate and lethal at distance for small game.

[@arizonarangerwiththebigiron]

I think the 5.7 has a lot of potential in a PDW platform but the options are limited to the p90 and an AR-15 upper I would like to see sig come out with the MCX in 5.7.

[@mmorin92]

CMMG has their Dissent in 5.7, it's just a DI MCX essentially

[@arizonarangerwiththebigiron]

@@mmorin92 that's pretty cool. The further we get from the p90 and it's mags I think the better.

[@bobbertbobberson6725]

What is the advantage over just keeping it in 5.56 or .300BO?

[@mmorin92]

@@bobbertbobberson6725 lighter recoil I suppose. Without the high capacity of the P90 mag it kind of loses many of its advantages. It was never meant as a front line munition. Only for those in the supply line that might run into a lightly armored paratrooper

[@user-pc4sj7rh3c]

Although small entrances but with such great speed will butter the insides causing a mini explosion inside of you

[@richardstone530]

I hear what you’re saying. We need 6.8x51mm.

[@Fla5thgenTryMe]

I don't know what 22s you are using but I haven't any ftf etc from cci or any other quality ammo. Only that bulk trash or old ammo gets ftf in my experience.

[@954dsm25psi]

All in on canik!

[@reedr1659]

Pistol rounds are pistol rounds. All popular carry calibers have proven to be marginally effective in different situations. 9mm, .380, .40, .45, all of them. We've all seen videos of dudes soaking up half a dozen rounds and continuing to fight for at least a little while.

[@motonut007]

Think about making a . 22lr or . 22 Mag that uses the 5.7 design stick mag. No rim lock and 50+ rd capacity. That would be a fun range toy.

[@austindecker7643]

The keltec pmr is a 22 win mag handgun that has a capacity of 30

[@jbone6246]

@@austindecker7643 But it's a keltec

[@bobbertbobberson6725]

You would still need to account for the taper. You'd barely be able to go past 20 rounds before the taper is too extreme for the follower to manage

[@guildig1]

They should make a 556 PS90 or 300 blackout. They would only have to change the magazine( the magazine as well)area, the bolt and the barrel and it should be fine.

[@bobbertbobberson6725]

You can't. 5.7 is straight-walled. 5.56 and .300 are tapered. That's why P90 mags are straight and can be 50 rounds, and why even 20 round PMAG's are curved, or usgi 20 rounders need a tilting follower to follow the taper

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

The P90 has a weird blowback system where the barrel moves a little but there's no lockup, you can't just shove a 5.56 in there as you have to build a true locking system or at least a delaying system for blowback.

[@jtallday31]

I had a box of Winchester white box that had a similar failure rate to .22lr

[@twiz148]

I gotta be honest...I shoot my grandfather's probably 80 year old remingtom 22lr with aguilla ammo and NEVER have failures to fire. I mean I wouldn't trust it as a self defense weapon but I never have problems with it jamming nor failures to fire. Well in fairness I had some trouble with jams after I shot it a few thousand rounds without cleaning it....but then again any gun could have that problem.

[@limabravo6065]

The 5.7 is the forward assist of the ammo world