Is 5.7x28mm Just Overpriced .22 Magnum? [Part 1]

[@marzcapone9939]

Not sure how determined that guy was, but "please stop shooting me" is a quite pleasant request, very considerate.

[@Joeak74]

And then... he took an advil and headed off to work. And... we're all meat sponges with internal organs that don't like to be damaged, HOWEVER... the 5.7X28 just won't do the job, but a 22LR will? Bullshit.

[@tankerd1847]

Seems like it turned his determination to fight down, there's that.

[@mattmarzula]

The suspect who was shot 10-12 times by Jacksonville PD lived. He was never quoted as say please although he did ask to stop being shot.

[@andnorr7738]

Being able to say stop shooting me, while being shot 10-12 times with the 5.7, does not bode well for the cartridge.

[@purplepenguin43]

@@andnorr7738same thing happens with 9mm, neither are rifle rounds that can get that hydrostatic shock going.

[@TheZombieburner]

The reason I like 5.7 is the same reason I like 32H&R: I have a weak, fragile body due to chronic illness, and the softer recoil of the gun allows me to use it without pain in my joints. Fully aware it's less than ideal, but it's also better than saying "Please don't eat me, Mr. Coyote."

[@PassivePortfolios]

Have you considered a revolver with a 6-8" barrel chambered in .22 mag.?

[@TheZombieburner]

@@PassivePortfolios I have, but I don't trust rimfire to go off when I need it. I'd rather have the centerfire, more reliable.

[@PassivePortfolios]

@@TheZombieburner Yeah, any centerfire will be more reliable than any rimfire. This is less of an issue in a .22 mag. revolver.

[@LuckyGunner]

@TheZombieburner Your use case is the perfect niche for 5.7 and I would probably do the same thing in your position

[@PassivePortfolios]

@@TheZombieburner with a dud in a revolver, you just pull the trigger again to go to the next round. Not an issue like clearing a dud in a semi-auto.

[@N7mudkip]

Maybe one advantage of a 5.7x28mm is that it has center fire reliability versus rim fired.

[@icejjfish2191]

Generally isn’t 22lr only unreliable because the massive scale it’s produced on 22 magnum doesn’t have that same scale they arnt pushing bull packs of 300-500 rounds

[@tammykennedy4165]

That’s the only real plus over 22 mag I’ve always called it 22 mag centerfire ballistics are pretty much the same

[@twistedfocus]

That’s not a crazy assertion. 25ACP was essentially just made to be 22LR power but in a format that feeds better in a magazine and is center fire for reliability. This isn’t far off the same thing but at 22 mag levels, albeit maybe a bit more, as it was supposed to aproximate 9mm but work better in a high RPM subgun (specifically reliable feeding and high capacity). Bonus points for soft body armor penetration, but meh?

[@TheDarksideFNothing]

​@@icejjfish2191 the very long thin straight walled cartridge of the 22 mag is just more difficult to feed reliably. Most cartridges designed for auto loading guns taper ever so slightly along the entire length of the casing (not just the neck where it attaches to the bullet) and aren't as long compared to the diameter of the casing. Those geometry choices just play nicer with feed ramps and and loading mechanisms. A great example is Smith and Wessons 5.7 compared to their almost identical 22mag. Same barrel system but the 5.7 is dramatically more reliable, and not because of dud rounds. Edit: the S&W doesn't seem to be as unreliable as I was thinking. But it does seem to be less reliable than the 5.7 version.

[@N7mudkip]

@@icejjfish2191idk too much about 22 Mag in comparison to LR, but even high quality .22LR like CCI mini-mags and what not still have the occasional failure to fire, even if it’s 99% reliable it’s still one of the negatives of rimfire.

[@brickwall9781]

If 5.7's power has left things to be desired, then the MP7's 4.6mm round is probably even worse

[@DickTickles]

4.6 is designed entirely around defeating armor. The 5.7 has always had an identity crisis of what it wants to be or even was supposed to be.

[@jrfarawayfrom2016]

But we can't get the spicy sauce version of either ..

[@jalpat2272]

the main selling point of them are AP capabilities and soft recoil in full auto from compact high capacity weapon (p90/mp7) which are useless for civilian market anyway, unless they replacing more mainstream pistol and plingking rounds.

[@TurboTaco2JZ]

​@@jrfarawayfrom2016except you can....

[@jrfarawayfrom2016]

@@TurboTaco2JZ 30 06 M2 AP vs some Flemish Tictac...

[@BuffRANGE]

That one about the “stop” shooting me gets thrown around a lot and i don’t think anyone has ever validated it.

[@TheZombieburner]

Buffman!!!!! Your channel rocks!

[@BcFuTw9jt]

Tampa Bay Florida was where it happened

[@BuffRANGE]

@@BcFuTw9jtI saw a report from a Tampa FL P90 shooting and the Bad Guy was deceased on site. Do you have different data ?

[@kalashnikovdevil]

That sounded pretty suspicious to me.

[@donh1572]

There are plenty of 9mm shootings that have similar stories but everyone ignores those

[@Aenima308]

The price of 5.7 ammo vs 9mm ammo is insane

[@Jay-vj1km]

Hell yeah. Absolutely ridiculous. And it performs worse than 9mm 🤦‍♂️

[@stevefowler1347]

@@Jay-vj1km, to me the issue is not 5.7mm vs 9mm: in most respects 9mm is better. Nor is the issue 5.7mm vs 10mm, .45, 44mag, .357mag, etc. The issue is when those more powerful rounds are absolutely off the table due to one's advanced age or heath. So the issue is 5.7 vs .380, 22mag, etc. I know that there has been absurd hype over 5.7, but I ignore that.

[@Schwarzvogel1]

@@stevefowler1347 You raise a very interesting point about comparing 5.7x28mm to other less powerful, but commonly used pistol cartridges like .380 ACP and .22 WMR. (Un)fortunately and despite the absurd hype, 5.7x28mm doesn't exhibit significantly higher performance than .380 or .22 Mag in any metric except cost, i.e. it costs a hell of a lot more per cartridge than either of those calibers. I have a great deal of disdain for 5.7x28mm primarily because its cost is *not* in any way justified by its performance. It's just a slightly spicier, centerfire .22 WMR... and regarding the rimfire reliability concerns, I'm starting to think those are overblown. Yes, cheap .22 LR sold in 'bucket o' bullets' packaging like Remington Thunderbolts aren't going to be very reliable. Those cartridges are made to be cheap for plinking and training--they aren't intended for self-defense, although they can be used as such if you had nothing else. Would you rely on cheap aluminum case, 115 gr 9x19mm FMJ for defensive use? Of course not, unless you absolutely had nothing better to use. And in some cases, the reliability of your ammo is influenced to some degree by the firearm you are shooting it with: some guns are _very_ picky about ammo selection; some are more omnivorous in whatever they can reliably cycle. Higher quality .22 LR tends to be more reliable, and centerfire cartridges are not immune to reliability issues either. If 5.7x28mm were as cheap as 9x19mm or even if it matched .45 ACP in cost, I'd pick it in a heartbeat over 9mm Parabellum, as I like the concept of it. But the hype and cost don't match the performance in any way, and paying more per round for my pistol range ammo than I do for 5.56x45mm and .223 just seems absurd to me.

[@lonniebeal6032]

@@stevefowler1347Low recoil of the 5.7 is a big plus.

[@brianmoore1164]

You are much more kind than I am. After the "twice the size of the 44 magnum" quote, I would have done a split screen of 5.7 hitting a gel block and 44 magnum hitting a gel block. Mean, I know, but it would have been hilarious! 😊

[@Tfaonc]

Was surprised that didn't show up on screen immediately

[@someguy5035]

"Someone heard someone say 30 years ago..." isn't exactly proof anyone said anything. Sounds like sewing circle nonsense to me.

[@someguy5035]

@@klinestill I wouldn't have believed that if I heard and I have the five seven and PS90.

[@sproutpits]

A friend of mine uses the FN pistol to control coyotes while he's out on his property. Easier to carry around than a rifle, and flat shooting, so judging distance isn't as big an issue. He says it works great for that.

[@TheDarksideFNothing]

Yeah, no doubt it will absolutely kill things and there are advantages to that high muzzle velocity. I think the big thing is for self defense you're really needing that time-to-incapacitation as low as possible. One bullet may very well kill but you need it to happen NOW and not in 5 minutes. Seems like the recent videos exploring 5.7 are suggesting that it's firmly in pistol territory in that regard and maybe not even particularly great for a pistol. Absolutely deadly, but don't expect rifle-like effect on target.

[@TheDarksideFNothing]

@@SimuLord I can see where a 5.7 pistol would be convenient to have on you and much flatter shooting than other pistol calibers making it easier to push the limits of effective range. If you don't want to carry a rifle idk what would be a better option.

[@Amy-dq2lg]

@@SimuLord Military situations are what the round is designed for, penetrating body amour much better than other pistol cartridges with similar recoil impulse

[@wanderingcalamity360]

​@@Amy-dq2lg So was the British L85. But you see how that turned out.

[@Amy-dq2lg]

@@wanderingcalamity360 Yeah, fine since the A2 where the manufacturing issues were resolved

[@borkwoof696]

Hey Chris, I would actually love a detailed video about the history and methodology of how the 12" minimum standard was determined.

[@LuckyGunner]

It's pretty long, but this video covers it pretty well: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a3LLlKiCjK6YaaM

[@saleembarmania5295]

​@@LuckyGunner i would love to see the rest of the interview with Dr. Fackler.

[@bsmithhammer]

@@saleembarmania5295 There's a lot of info out there on how Fackler devised the methodology that he did. A basic search will reveal a lot of background.

[@TheZombieburner]

@@LuckyGunner Very interesting. Thank you!

[@jameskazd9951]

@@onpsxmember yeah that video is really good

[@NOTSOSLIMJIM]

I was on Fort Hood the day of the shooting just two blocks away. I know many people who were injured that day, and saw the aftermath. It really depends on where someone was hit. I met one individual who was shot in the throat and lived, while others took a single shot to the chest or back and died. It is not like the 10mm that just rips through everything in its way, but more of a scalpel that cuts a path.

[@bertblue9683]

I was in my living room that day

[@adariusroundtree2822]

I seen the interview about the guy shot in the throat area below his jaw bone 5.7 is no joke with the right spicy ammo in close quarters

[@NOTSOSLIMJIM]

@adariusroundtree2822 any round is effective at the correct range and location. Another friend of mine took three 45 slugs during the 2nd Hood shooting. He was in the hospital for months, now he is doing fine and just got promoted to full bird not long ago.

[@ericgerhardt1127]

At Ft Hood, 11 people were shot center-of-mass (COM), another was shot in the stomach, and another was shot in the head. All 13 died. All 11 victims who were shot COM did not survive. 3 of the 13 people who died, tried to charge Hassan, but he stopped them with COM shots. The 32 people who were wounded were hit in the arms, legs, hips and shoulders. None of the wounded survivors were shot COM. Sgt. Kimberly Munley (base civilian police), one of the first responders, was immediately disabled with 5.7x28 bullet shrapnels to her wrist, and a second 5.7x28 bullet broke her femur. The light 5.7x28 commercial ammo showed that it can shatter large bones due to its velocity. I would feel very confident using the 5.7 as a defensive round.

[@NOTSOSLIMJIM]

@ericgerhardt1127 another fun fact. Did you know both Fort Hood shooters bought their guns from the same gun shop?

[@Scrap_Goblin]

The "stop shooting me" story sounds more like an officer blaming his poor shooting on 5.7

[@georgewhitworth9742]

Not praising the 5.7, but you could be onto something. Like the .30 Carbine's own "winter coat" from Korea.

[@Scrap_Goblin]

@@georgewhitworth9742 I worked with a guy that took 7 rounds of 45 from a 1911 just about point blank that managed to come out of it with no major disabilities beyond a bit of movements loss in his shoulder. Guy that shot him went from thigh to shoulder and didn't hit a damn thing that was important

[@bodyno3158]

@@Scrap_Goblin Now I really don't know that was sheer luck or really bad shot placement.

[@Scrap_Goblin]

@@bodyno3158 both. He was lucky and the other guy couldn't shoot

[@fishinrob8254]

​@klinestill yeah, but 12 rounds to a limb would still be bad shooting and not necessarily incapacitating. Just saying it is possible this is also internet lure.

[@gameragodzilla]

The ironic thing I always find with discussions of 5.7 is usually, people say “all pistol rounds suck” and “stopping power is a myth” when comparing 9mm to larger calibers like .45ACP or .40S&W, but suddenly stopping power exists when comparing 9mm to 5.7. Can’t have with both ways.

[@camojoe83]

You can. 5.7 is the only thing mentioned that creates a shockwave that's effective in a person.

[@timg7627]

⁠@@camojoe835.7 from a pistol will not create a ‘shockwave’ in a person

[@camojoe83]

@@timg7627 impact velocity over 2000 fps will, seems that's right there within parameters. I don't think this is really a handgun bullet anyway and to compare it to such indicates a fair amount of retardation.

[@timg7627]

@@camojoe83 whoa dude don’t get so triggered No one is taking away your precious little 5.7. Chill out 🤣 If you haven’t noticed the recent popularity of 5.7 is primarily due to the release of multiple different pistols chambered in the round. So yes, this fact pistol length 5.7 doesnt have the supposed benefits of the round does have relevance in the conversation. 👍

[@camojoe83]

@@timg7627 not taking anything from me, man, I don't have a reason to own the expensive little bastards. at pistol length barrels, several loads will impact above 2kfps. Even if it's just under it, that's still way closer to that critical 2200 mark for permanent tissue disruption than anything else that comes out of a handgun you're going to carry at all. So yes, both ways. Pistol caliber stopping power *is* a myth, and the 5.7 *has* said "stopping power" because it *will indeed* still create a shockwave inside whatever piece of shit you plug with it irregardless of your neutering it with a pistol or not. Far more of one than a pistol cartridge with that good record of "stopping power" (whatever one decides *that* even is). One of these wounds you stitch back closed (yea, even tho it went clear thru and mushroomed), the other you have to scoop out with a sharp spoon and hope nothing important got mixed into that nasty black crater.

[@SpiritOfTheHeretic]

I appreciate the unbiased point of view and detail you put into this. Getting first-hand stories from people that use it was unexpected. I always assumed it would be a multiple-shot cartridge to accomplish whatever the goal is but I understand why that is not optimal if you need to immediately drop a target. Looking forward to Part 2 and seeing the $$$ loads.

[@TheOsfania]

Unbiased? He literally SELLS the stuff.

[@DIYDad1]

5.7 has been so hot lately everyone is talking about it again even garand thumb just did a video on this recently. Best resource for finding the best 5.7 ammo is going to be buffman - range on KZbin. He is THE source of 5.7 content. That said this is a misunderstood round. People like to compare it to a pistol round but it's not meant to perform like one. Most commercially available ammo is very weak. But there are a few loads that do a good job, it's not meant to expand like a traditional 9mm jhp. The wounding characteristics is somewhat like a rifle. Carrying 50 lightweight rounds in a magazine is nothing to scoff at either. Fast follow up shots and ability to carry more ammo with less weight is a big bonus.

[@neilsmith3986]

100%. It's not a "magic" round but is very viable, especially in pistol format. It's funny to me that everyone downplays it. I really dont get it the fuss. It's a capable round that is very light weight and is accurate at distance. He didnt want to expand on it's ability to defeat Lever III-A, but it can, and that's another plus.

[@chrissinclair4442]

I can see 5.7x28 doing more damage then a FMJ 9mm round a lot of militaries were using in the 1970s to 1990s.

[@DIYDad1]

@@klinestill you're right I have watched a lot of different videos on the topic, some types of projectiles perform better than others, and there's use cases for all of them, it isn't inherently worse or better than other pistol cartridges, just different use cases. Doesn't mean its terrible.

[@panchopistola8298]

I think it’s better for home defense than even 9mm because it’s less likely to go through a wall or a door …

[@DIYDad1]

@@panchopistola8298 that's a perfect use case, light weight 36gr or 40gr projectiles moving fast won't penetrate as much through walls that's proven.

[@repentnow1720]

FYI - Paul Harrell has previously addressed this issue / question (22 Mag vs 5.7 vs 22TCM) in his typical meticulously detailed fashion.

[@danielschmidt7153]

I trust his research more than lucky gunner tbh

[@repentnow1720]

@@danielschmidt7153 Yep. There's Paul Harrell, then there's everybody else.

[@menegene4129]

Watched that video a while ago because I've been intrigued by the round for a while. Can't deny that those meat targets showed promising results.

[@NoName-ge6wc]

Paul is great…if u can keep awake. Usually asleep after the third chronograph. 😂

[@TrueLifeVW09]

I like the further shooting, ease of use, lower recoil, etc. I know it’s not the best option for self defense but it has pros and cons like any cartridge.

[@LaughingPat]

I carry my FN Five Seven daily. A few reason why: 1- I like how light it is despite being a full size gun. 2- The magazine capacity. 3- The controllability of the recoil. Though admittedly it depends on ammo selection. The faster stuff can make it very snappy if you're not ready for it. 4- Also admittedly, it's a cool and fun gun. I like sharing my stuff so every time I go out shooting either my buddies or someone else at the range looks interested and I always offer a magazine to try out. Hell, I had a guy go buy a box of ammo once after the first mag just so he could try it out more. It's unique and fun to talk about and experience. As always, you'll be most effective with what you train on. In pistol calibers especially, shot placement is key. If you can't control your shot and put them where you need to, the caliber just doesn't make enough of a difference.

[@thomgizziz]

Being light isn't some magical thing that makes it easier to carry a gun... that gun is 8 inches long, people don't tend to carry something that long well. Nice attempt to try and justify your 1500 dollar mistake.

[@sisleymichael]

The ammo availability and cost is a factor for me. Also, I am pragmatic. To add a gun in the defensive category to what I have or replace something I have I want to know why the new gun is superior. I cannot justify this cartridge. I do not need a PDW. I have many handguns that will work quite well for concealed carry, and as a duty sized handgun, I'm good there. As for varmint control, I have that covered. If people want this cartridge for no reason, it fills a niche, they just want it without a reason, go for it. Life is short, be happy.

[@mikewithers299]

I totally agree with you. Every caliber I chose fills a specific purpose and is the most proven and effective for that purpose. So far the 5.7 isn't a need right now, but who knows if technology raises this up one day like the others before it.

[@Jay-vj1km]

Well said. Why buy a new firearm that requires expensive ammo that isn’t better than what is already available and very common(ex.. 9mm / 5.56)?

[@Jay-vj1km]

@@klinestill Lol…. Yeah, if money wasn’t an option I wouldn’t mind a PCC in 5.7. Maybe if the round gains more popularity in the future it’ll drive the prices down 🤷‍♂️

[@stevefowler1347]

It's not "pragmatic" to reject a gun when you can no longer use the guns that you currently have due to advance age or deteriorating health. When the alternative to a 5.7 is a .22.

[@sisleymichael]

@@stevefowler1347 Your statement makes no sense.

[@willc4149]

Would be really curious to see how much barrier penetration 5.7 gets as that is often mentioned when discussing AR's for home defense. Some drywall tests straight and at angle using some of the more common modern loads.

[@mwalker9401]

There are several of those on other YT channels already.

[@zack9912000]

It has been done, the round fragments, and doesn't come close to hitting vitals. The round is fast, but it simply destroys itself.

[@johnjay1147]

Tactical riflemen did a test of various home defense rifle, shotgun, and handgun rounds on ballistic gell with and without dry wall in front of the geo block. Moral of the story, an AR with varmint rounds (v max) or frangible rounds are the safest bet to minimize over penetration. I really liked Carl’s statement on what a surgeon would have to deal with on a patient hit with a frang round.

[@Enjoyer.762]

Step 1. Know what's beyond your threat. Step 2. Don't miss.

[@Stevarooni]

Your videos border on documentary qualities. Great research and professional presentation. Thanks for providing these fascinating videos!

[@ZeroFksGvn]

I got a pistol over a decade ago, it appealed to me because of capacity, ease of mag loading, and the price wasn’t bad at the time being about $.50 a round.

[@pandaking6247]

Now I wanna know where you got 5.7 at .50¢ a round

[@pewpewTN]

​@pandaking6247 it's less than .50 per round now. My last order was .38 per round.

[@crxtodd16]

​@@pandaking6247 What pewpew said. It's easy to find it at less than 50 cents/round. In fact, if you can't, then you can always get AAC 5.7 from Palmetto at 50 cents per round, and it's slightly higher velocity than most of the other commercially available loads.

[@N7mudkip]

@@pandaking6247AAC. But really you can get it 40 CPR check ammoseek if you don’t believe me.

[@Thisthat1234]

@@pandaking6247its 50 cents a round now.

[@danpearson854]

I heard somewhere that 9mm is just as effective as 10mm because when you are talking about pistols, a hole is a hole, and 9mm makes them faster, has more capacity, and is more controllable. Hmm. 5.7 makes holes faster than 9mm. 5.7 has more capacity than 9mm. 5.7 is more controllable than 9mm. Its just a pistol. A hole is a hole. More holes faster with better placement isnt a thing..... now that the same principles used to justify 9mm are being used against 9mm now that there is a cartridge that out 9mms the 9mm. I own many examples of, and regularly shoot 10, 9, and 5.7. With modern defensive loads, hands down, the one I least want to be hit ONCE by is 10mm. Still, if you are talking a mag dump under pressure, the 9 would probably score more hits, but the 5.7, for exactly the same reasons, would likely score more hits than the 9. The 5.7 handles more like a 22lr than a 9mm in a handgun. Placement and split times are objectively better. More holes, faster, and in more vitals used to be the argument for 9mm. But somehow now its not.

[@daily4020]

Very cogent, agreed.

[@guardianminifarm8005]

Very much appreciated. I have given this chambering some consideration as a home defence gun for my wife. Low recoil & many rounds are attractive. The Ruger, S&W & PSA offerings only increase the interest. Looking forward to future videos. Thank you.

[@LDR1100RS]

Chris...you have the best gun channel on KZbin. Thank you for years of entertainment and education.

[@LuckyGunner]

Thanks!

[@YurrNext]

I've used my PS90 as a coyote gun for years, and it is fantastic in that capacity.

[@thomgizziz]

Yep and so would dozens of other guns...

[@justinpolk8263]

He could have said he is using a 50cal but that wouldn’t have fit in this discussion kinda like the dozens of other Gus you refer to but thanks for your input…

[@michaelgoldberg4000]

Finally! Some science and statistics behind the myths! Waiting forward to part two

[@CriticalDroog]

or you could just watch Garand Thumb

[@michaelgoldberg4000]

@@CriticalDroog That's also an option, but his testing methodology is less consistent, and he doesn't tell the deep think behind what's going on. I absolutely love garand thumb, but this is where the real science is.

[@j.r.777]

I am looking for part 2. The 5.7x28mm was designed to be a hot load round. The FN SS90/SS190 was the round the 5.7 and P90 was designed for. All other rounds are underpowered and will underperform. The only other rounds that outperform the SS90/SS190 round is the Elite Ammunition T6B and Devestator rounds.

[@RandoBox]

Those Elite Ammunition rounds are so difficult/expensive to get.

[@j.r.777]

@@RandoBox, I know. I carry the T6B’s in my FN 5.7 for home defense because they will defeat most body armor and due to my job, a home threat wearing body armor is a higher probability over other people. But yeah, crazy expensive ammo for sure and it is now much more difficult to get.

[@Enjoyer.762]

@@j.r.777 If you're law enforcement you don't need a gimmick like Eite Ammo. You could just purchase SS190. Law enforcement has been dumping 5.7x28mm. Even they know it's trash. T6B will not defeat "most body armor" or it would be classified as an AP pistol round and restricted only to LE. Anyone who knows body armor and wants to sh*t on your picnic would just wear NIJ-level 4 rated plates which no 5.7x28 rounds will defeat..

[@j.r.777]

@@Enjoyer.762, I have tested both the SS190 and the T6B. In my testing, the T6B performed better. At my house I have several layers of security and protection. The FN 5.7 isn’t my only one but it is one. But, I love data so this video and the following one excite me because it’s more information to have. With any threats wearing body armor that wouldn’t be defeated, that’s what head shot drills and groin shot drills are for. But hopefully, I will never need it.

[@kalashnikov1343]

​@@j.r.7775.7 is also great because it doesn't overpenetrate. 5.7 performs worse when going through multiple layers of material like drywall/wood, metal/plastic, etc. It dumps all its energy immediately and then tumbles/fragments.

[@BuffRANGE]

If you all need any help/info on loads I’m only a DM away. :)

[@daddybone305]

Yo buffman what do u think about that grandthumb video on the 5.7?

[@BuffRANGE]

@@daddybone305he took the weakest of 5.7 personal defense ammo and made his assessments solely on the entrance destruction and then plugged g9 ammo.

[@mobeus5019]

What would your recommended load for home defense with a PS90 or SBR P90 be? Preferably something that is actually available unlike the Elite Ammunition offerings that are always vaporware?

[@BuffRANGE]

@@mobeus5019 With those the AAC Vmax will get you proper penetration depths and increased velocity to help with SOME IIIA and other barriers. Otherwise look into the Black Dragon Fang from VG or the Vampire Fang which I just dropped a review on today..

[@jeffparcel]

5.7: The intermediate intermediate cartridge

[@ryewaldman2214]

I want to comment on the determination of the temporary cavity size. In this video at 8:08 the dimensions shown are 3.5" x 4" for 5.7 vs 2.5" x 5" for 9mm. I believe the point being made here is that 3.5 * 4 = 14 is approximately the same as 12.5 = 2.5*5. Here, 14/12.5 = 1.12; namely the projected area of the stretch cavity is 12% larger in 5.7 vs 9mm. This is an error. The wound cavities are not the 2D-projections shown, but are 3D-volumes. The dimensionally-correct comparison would be between 3.5^2 * 4 = 49 vs 31.25 = 2.5^2 * 5. Here, the 49/31.25 = 1.57; namely, the 5.7 stretch cavity is approximately 57% larger than the 9mm stretch cavity. The volume of tissue disrupted by stretch from the 5.7 is 57% larger than the tissue disrupted by the stretch from 9mm. This is a non-negligible difference. The place for debate here is whether or not the location of the stretch cavity damage is appropriate for the application, and whether the permanent cavity size and penetration favor one over the other, which, of course, you allude to at 8:30

[@LuckyGunner]

What's being measured there is the resulting tearing from the temporary cavity, not the temporary cavity itself. The tearing does not occupy the entire spheroid shape of the temp cavity, so we're not measuring a volume. The tearing usually looks more like an X shape, with two perpendicular tears where the intersecting point is the bullet's path. Sometimes there are more tears, but there are typically two large and distinct ones. We measure each tear giving us a height and width, and note the longer of the two. Then we measure the length of the tear. With both the 5.7 and the 9mm, the temporary cavity damage is well below the threshold of what is typically considered adequate to be a reliable source of incapacitation. At somewhere around 4.5" in height/width and 8" in length, that begins to change. Regardless of the temporary cavity, a 10-12" minimum for penetration is still the priority.

[@camojoe83]

You neglect to add something to this that's very important. Terminal shock. The cavity produced by the pipsqueak is about 300% more damaging because of the shockwave from the speed of impact. Pistol rounds produce a temporary cavity that very rarely exceeds the elasticity of human tissue. It doesn't expand the cavity fast enough nor with enough force.. that's not true with something hitting as fast as the 5.7 or any other high velocity rifle round. So, a much larger wound cavity that's actually effectively permanent with the 5.7 vs the stitch-it-shut groove the regular handgun produces.

[@LuckyGunner]

@thatoldagencyguy Yeah, the 2200 fps is kind of a loose rule of thumb/minimum threshold -- he was not implying that 2200+ fps automatically means an effective temporary wound cavity regardless of other factors.

[@AniwayasSong]

I EDC'd my trusty-dusty Ruger P85 for decades. Still have it, will never sell/part with it. However, I've been eyeing the 5.7x28 ever since it first hit the open market, and finally invested into it three summers ago with my Ruger 57 (And then it's buddy, the Ruger LC Carbine). EVERYONE around me tried giving me grief over this decision, mocking this caliber as being no better than the .22 Mag.. Then we did all our field tests, from cans, fruit, assorted 'Built' targets (as-in Paul Harrell's famous 'Meat' and others), bricks, cinder blocks, and finally, ballistic gel. They're not mocking/making fun of this caliber anymore! It is not and never was a .45ACP. That's not it's niche. I love the variety of ammo options, and the fact I can reload it (Unlike the .22LR/Mag.). I love the higher capacity/magazine of this caliber. I REALLY love the minimal recoil, nearly instantaneous re-acquisition on the target (ie, very little muzzle 'Flip'). Loved the video, and a hearty 'Thank you!' for taking the time to make and then share it!

[@Enjoyer.762]

"Then we did all our field tests, from cans, fruit, assorted 'Built' targets (as-in Paul Harrell's famous 'Meat' and others), bricks, cinder blocks, and finally, ballistic gel. They're not mocking/making fun of this caliber anymore!" The terminal ballistic performance based on military and law enforcement data proves it is less than optimal. Your anecdotes do not carry more validity than accredited ballistic tests. You are not a ballistics expert. You are not credentialed. Your "tests" are not scientific. Nor do they include data from gunshot victims shot by 5.7x28mm.

[@carolkmc2855]

Even when a new round is invented that is indeed "the magic bullet", the that does not diminish current ammo that has proven its effectiveness. For instance, it is not what bullet the victim was shot with, but where the bullet struck the victim. A brain/spine/heart shot victim is not aware whether it was a .22lr or a 500 AE. Those victims have entered eternity and offer no further threat. Fashion trends exist in guns and ammo as it does in clothes. Great video as always and your ammo selection is great as is your delivery!

[@qqq1701]

It seemed to make a big difference against the Goa'uld when the Stargate teams switched from MP5s to P90s. I assume due to the minor armor defeating capability vs 9mm.

[@TheAnnoyingBoss]

5.7 is only worth it with a full powder charge ss190. Thing has to scream or I wont use it

[@bonedragon4166]

Beat me too it. 😂

[@leneanderthalien]

armor penetration from military grade 5.7 is MUCH better than 9mm parabellum...

[@wesleymills6542]

It’s funny how we went from .357 Magnum, that had 96% one-shot stops over 50 years of LEO use to a “but muh over penetration, just shoot full auto”. Seems like the answer of “muh capacity” turned to “but muh lethality”. #BringBack357

[@benjimenfranklin7173]

Indeed you are correct.

[@blackrifle6736]

*Chris, thank you for performing your due-diligence on this controversial round. So far looks like a good but expensive 'Yote round and little else. Looking forward to Part 2. Cheers!*

[@MrGsteele]

The reason that mass matters in temporary cavity formation - as in your comparison of 5.56 vs 7.62 /.308 - has to do with momentum; the greater the mass, the less the bullet slows (for a given frontal area) as it passes through the medium - gel or tissue. For projectiles of a given frontal area, one that stops within the body has an average energy available to transfer to the target animal that ranges between impact energy and zero; for one that passes through at full speed (theoretically, of course - not possible in reality) the energy available to be transferred to create the cavity is at its maximum all the way through. Lighter bullets shed velocity faster, so the temporary cavity is smaller as the bullet exits or reaches its final penetration depth. That's why bullets that pass through a game animal - apart from the benefit of a more pronounced blood trail - will have done more damage in transit than one that stops partway through the animal, even if it stops under the far side of the hide. Again, all assuming that the only difference between the light and heavy projectile is their mass - not other decelerative factors like expansion. Put another way, no one would argue that a 110 grain M1 carbine bullet impacting at, say, 1,800 f/s would do as much damage as, say, a 170 grain .30-30 bullet traveling at the same speed. The 170 grain bullet has more momentum to keep it plowing through the animal at speed. If both exited the target, the 110 grain bullet would exit at a lower speed than the 170 grain directly because of its lower initial momentum.

[@DamageSix]

I still think the 5.7 would have been an admirable varmint cartridge if anyone bothered to build around that niche for it.

[@ZXChrisR14]

Savage tried a few years ago but they couldn’t figure out how to stabilize that 40 gr. bullet….and apparently they just gave up and let us varmint hunters hanging.

[@JaronActual]

In that role, what would it offer over .223? The case has drastically less powder capacity, so velocity will never be as high as .223. The smaller 5.7 means it can function in a smaller firearm and the ammo capacity can be higher for the same weight/volume, but neither of those makes a big difference when you're plinking potguts at 100+ yards.

[@max-zv7sf]

So, like 22Hornet, just worse?

[@DamageSix]

@@JaronActual most of those points apply to most of the traditional varmint rifle cartridges we've got in rimfire, don't they?

[@max-zv7sf]

​@@DamageSixnot really, from my point of view, given that rimfire cartridges are typically cheaper to make and buy compared to similar centerfires. Also consider that 5.7 requires a special laquer coating to work well and that the chamber drawings for military use cartridges typically aren't engineered for high levels of accuracy. I am talking theoretically, because i have never seen a varmint rifle in 5.7, but i have reason to suspect that really good accuracy might be hard to achieve.

[@twentyfifthdui4717]

In the Ft. Hood shooting, 5.7 had an unusually low fatality rate when at least one round hit torso, head or neck. It was in the range of 45%. For comparison, in real world shootings 9mm, 38 special, 40 S&W, and 380 are all in the 88 to 91% range by the same measure. 32 ACP is approximately 75%. So 45% is pretty bad.

[@animal8526]

I'd love more info/sourcing on this.

[@twentyfifthdui4717]

@@animal8526 Published data on "One shot stops" exists, but there is nothing published on multi-shot stops. If I fire 1 round and I live or fire 10 rounds and I live, I'm just as alive at the end, so I wanted to include all stops, but no one has collected that metric. So I had to collect my own over the past 5 years from a variety of sources. I reviewed over 3600 case narratives, and anyone who has the time can duplicate that. One good source of raw data is reported court opinions on murder and attempted murder cases. Another is the LEOKA summaries collected by FBI. At one time about 45 years of LEOKA summaries were available online, but I think maybe it's now just the late 90s thru 2019. These summaries sometimes are useless due to missing data like caliber or shot placement, but there's enough data to get a hundreds of data points for most major calibers. In fairness, I have only reviewed 63 instances of people shot by 5.7, so that may not be enough to draw strong conclusions. Some of the results involving 100+ cases are surprising, and I attribute the success rate of some low recoil rounds to better accuracy with follow up shots. 25 ACP. 84% 32 ACP. 80% (I was mistaken when I said 75 before)(I attribute this lower rate to rimlock malfunctions). 380. 92%. 9mm. 88%. 38. 92% 357. 91%. 40. 90%. 45. 89%. Shotgun (all gauges). 94%. Centerfire Rifle. 94%.

[@lowspeedhighdrag566]

First thing I thought of when I saw this posted was Pat Rogers talking about the P90. Awesome to see you reference him.

[@TexasRoadWarrior]

Always great information! And yes, LGs service and customer service is fantastic!!!

[@LuckyGunner]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@frogchaser]

the funny part about 5.7x28mm vs 9mm comparisons usually mentions the "armor piercing" capability of 5.7 but never mentions the fact that AP 9mm also exists

[@camojoe83]

No, steel core 9mm exists. Fired from a rifle, exposed steel core ammo will sometimes penetrate kevlar.. sometimes. Frontal cross section is far more important than bullet construction when it comes to hanging up in soft body armor. Pretty much any small bullet moving more than 2500 fps will have a good chance of penetrating soft armor.

[@frogchaser]

@@camojoe83 7N31 (63gr bullet) and 7N21 (80gr bullet) are just a couple of examples of light for caliber and over-pressured 9mm that is capable of armor penetration. Sure, it's not as common as ss190 but that's mostly for the US market.

[@camojoe83]

@@frogchaser pretty much all the loads for the 5.7 will go thru soft armor at close range from the pdw, tho. That means there's no need for sourcing special Russian 9mm carbine ammo to gain that capability.

[@frogchaser]

@@camojoe83 no one really wears soft armor that is less capable than level IIIA so this point is moot when it comes to commercially available 5.7x28mm.

[@benjimenfranklin7173]

​@@camojoe83 Czech 9mm armor piercing ammo. This stuff was banned from import in 1986, and features a steel core. But it does exist.

[@supeguero0]

Just finished watching Garandthumbs video on the FN 5.7 so I’m sure this will be a good follow up

[@thebigcoorslight]

I've never taken the time to look, but you are the first person I've ever heard explain any of the reasons for the 12" minimum penetration standard. Thanks!

[@mikewithers299]

I've heard it on other channels in the past but since it's common knowledge now so most don't explain it anymore unless a viewer questions that number.

[@quietus13]

In addition to taking less than optimum angles into account, the 12" is also to add margin for bone and skin (a surprisingly tough barrier, particularly when a round is exiting), as gel just mimics soft tissue. But even more than being "representative" of what a wound would look like gel just offers a standardized medium for comparison between different loadings.

[@robertturley2974]

And he got it wrong. The 12" standard is just that, a standard. Ballistic gel isnt meant to mimic human tissue. 12" of penetration in gel does not equal 12" of penetration in tissue. If that was the case then all the common self defense rounds would be over penetrating and exiting if the person was shot head on. Thats not the case. the 12" gel is meant to be a standard, if it penetrates 12" in gel it will have sufficient penetration in human tissue, but its not 12". The fact the he would say it has anything to do with the location of the vitals being 12" from the side is just flat out incorrect as the gel was never meant to mimic human tissue.

[@kmieciu4ever]

In Fort Hood the perpetrator killed 3 unarmed soilders that were trying to charge him. One of them tried charging with a desk. He used SS192 and SS197SR ammo. Also most victims died to chest wounds...

[@Lawbase]

Part 2 would be nice

[@PrimaryAndSecondary]

Thank you for being another great source of accurate information!

[@LuckyGunner]

Back atcha!

[@Udeus5]

can you explain why the increase in velocity for the 197sr “blue tips” with a longer barrel decreases the penetration? That seems counter intuitive. @@LuckyGunner. 13:22

[@damn_skippy]

Increased velocity often causes more rapid and violent expansion/fragmentation, which results in decreased penetration. Conversely, decreased velocity may impede or even entirely prevent expansion/fragmentation, which might result in overpenetration.

[@Udeus5]

@@damn_skippy solid reply, I really appreciate it. I wonder if the increased mass of the blue also helped with the penetration

[@cch201992]

Wen part 2👀? Lol I need to to validate my recent purchases🤣

[@DH-xw6jp]

I think a small light weight single shot .22lr bolt action rifle (like Keystone's Crickett) rechambered to 5.7 would be a great little varmint gun.

[@xVictorDavidx]

Debunking myths, I love it! Keep bringing it!

[@tonyrobbins6714]

I've done some gel tests with my 5.7, tested several 'defense rounds'. Even gold dot barely expands.

[@leeham6230]

Expansion is important for other rounds, since if they DON'T expand, they will not dump their energy into the target. We can clearly see from this video that 5.7 dumps all of its energy regardless of expansion, and the main concern is its lack of penetration (barely 12 inches in the best case). Serious question for you: Why would you want more expansion on a round that already underpenetrates, and already dumps its energy? That makes no sense.

[@ShastaBean]

...because they changed it; altered the tip + neutered it. I have video uploaded showing the difference. The 2020 headstamp variety worked nearly perfectly from pistol. I have a few dozen videos uploaded showing what various bullets will do when loaded to a reasonable velocity. The mass-produced stuff is garbage, and it's most likely because they are being forced to do this because of how effective the round can actually be.

[@thomgizziz]

@@ShastaBean cope harder, brother.

[@ShastaBean]

@@thomgizziz that makes zero sense

[@ShastaBean]

​@@leeham6230 As I see it, the FBI penetration minimum is built around a "failed" sting-op that got the Silvertip the lasting focus for blame to be laid at its feet. While it's good to have testing protocols for comparison, the 12" just so happens to be slightly beyond what that one round actually penetrated on that one given shot. That is a shot that came from the side likely because of agents in multiple positions and various angles. So for police, it's clear they'd face more angles like that than a civilian defense is ever likely to. Sure it's possible, but nowhere near odds that LE might experience. And in that case it went thru lung 1st, and just missed the heart. If it had come from the other side, then it stands to reason that it could have hit heart first. If I measure across shoulders, it's ~19". From front to back it's @ sternum ~9.5". So a hit from front-facing into center-mass would need to go ~7.5" to make it 80% of the way through. From the side, 12" penetration on a shot through upper arms means it travels just over 60% of the way through from a shoulder towards the other shoulder. If no shoulder / arms involved, then it's 14" from rib through rib so 60% of that is ~8.5" of penetration. It's arguably just that one situation of a side-shot and only on that one side where the 12" minimum truly applies. Getting hung up on that 12" minimum looks to pretty often get people to dismiss defense options that might actually be a good choice. See it way often with .380. Meanwhile trauma surgeons say it's plenty effective.

[@aegiltech]

On talk of Multiple Rounds to Incapacitate, current training has you 'driving' the target into the ground rather than relying on arbitrary counts to kill (with the resulting 'how many did I put in him') or relying on single shot incapacitations. Now, if either of those are preferred, there's platforms like .300 BLK that are going to be more reliable for that, but in the context of the 5.7 cartridge, I don't think 'multiple rounds to incapacitate' is necessarily a barrier.

[@matthewgonzalez4499]

WHEN IS PART 2 COMING OUT??

[@cristianespinal9917]

Thanks. I had my eye on a Ruger 57, but was on the fence due to handloading complexities, ammo cost, and the fact that it would be a gun just for fun. Then between Garand Thumb, VSO, and you guys coming up with your videos within 3 days it put it solidly in the "pass" camp for me.

[@DIYDad1]

Well you mentioned you wanted it just for fun. 5.7 delivers that in spades. I love the 5.7. It has shortcomings for self defense purposes, it's underwhelming as a rifle cartridge but performs on par with a pistol caliber for its intended purposes. And for that it's longer range ballistics and flatter trajectory compared to 9mm, whole giving you the ability to carry twice for the same weight, and flat shooting, you can easily dump 6 or 7 rounds into a target at greater distances with less recoil whole staying on target compared to other pistol cartridges. So it had merits, but a lot of people tend to oversell it for what it is. It's limited. But also fun and there's definitely use cases for it.

[@cristianespinal9917]

@@DIYDad1 I hear you. For me the biggest deciding factors are the price of ammo, the handloading complexity, and the fact that I live in a state with mag restrictions. As fun as it looks, it doesn't look worth the trouble or expense for me right now. Or at least it's way down on my list of gun-budget priorities.

[@Joe-hz1nw]

@@cristianespinal9917I bought a PSA Rock for fun and it’s exceeded my expectations. Good gun to teach a new shooter after they get proficient with a 22lr. Ammo is routinely $0.50 a round nowadays. You can reload using a 45 grain 223 projectile to save money, I’d recommend the Lee factory crimp die for crimping if you ever decide to take the plunge, speer also makes reasonably priced bullets. Brass needs trimmed just like rifle cartridges. I hand wash cases to not mess with the coating. AAC (Palmetto) ammunition coating doesn’t come off in a sonic cleaner which is nice. In summary, reloading isn’t that bad. A bit more work but if you enjoy reloading and don’t mind a single stage press, it’s not bad.

[@cristianespinal9917]

@@Joe-hz1nw great tips, much appreciated. The coating was one issue I worried about. Specifically whether corncob or walnut tumbling would remove it and whether it effects case lubing. Trimming like rifle brass seems a bit annoying, but isn't a deal breaker. And the PSA Rock seems like a great deal for a purely fun gun.

[@DIYDad1]

@@cristianespinal9917 well the good news is that lately I've been finding 5.7 for less than the price of 5.56 so that's a good thing! It's come down quite a bit the Fiocchi branded bulk packs are only like 65 for 150 rounds it's much more reasonably priced than it was a couple of years ago but in your case if you have mag restrictions then I'd rather just carry a 45 or something.

[@christianfritz6333]

I have a p90 and an mpx, granted these rifles were designed almost 30 years apart, but in reference to the cartridge, the 5.7 is a much more controllable firearm in full auto, however the 9mm though harder to control has better destruction on the intended target with fmj

[@BraveLittIeToaster]

complaining about the lack of penatration from hollow point rounds struck me as odd to say the least...

[@georgewhitworth9742]

But 9mm subguns already have virtually no recoil with the right setups, so why is it that much more advantagous to go even smaller if it doesn't really add any benefits, but lessens the leathality? Better yet, why not a short barreled 5.56? Even better energy and velocity then the 9mm out of any comparable barrel length, except maybe for anything smaller then seven inches. Only real advantage I see with the 5.7 is magazine capacity in a PDW platform. Hard to argue with more rounds before a reload, unless it's just that weak.... In my mind, a 5.7mm in child size rifles would be super sweet. Think Krickets Mini Mosin but in 5.7, and with a multi-shot magazine. THAT would be super sweet!

[@christianfritz6333]

Remembering that nato has never approved hollow points, and 5.7 wasn't designed to be, but chris's argument was for self defense OK, however all of the pistols are far to large for cc, I have a Ruger, it's unique but completely useless except as a range toy.

[@thomgizziz]

@@christianfritz6333 Naw I have seen multiple people say that they carry the FN 5.7 everyday because people can never admit that they made a mistake and would instead lie.

[@christianfritz6333]

@@thomgizziz? What does that have to do with what I said?

[@rickfarwell4110]

The 5.7 Johnson was ahead of its time! Johnson adapted it from the 30 M-1 carbine, cartridge and even a few M-1 carbines were chambered in it. it fell halfway between the 5.56 and the 5.7x28. Too bad it wasn't adopted by the US and NATO.

[@whatfreedom7]

That guy that said stop shooting me is officially more gangster than 50 cent and 2Pac.

[@joshmckinney3254]

Not sure if you'd be able to get your hands on enough of it, but I would be most interested to see how the new Hornady 5.7 FTX Critical Defense performs. Critical Defense is my go-to for defensive 9mm and am curious if that or the spear gold dot would make for an adequate defensive round.

[@TheZombieburner]

Hornady's good stuff.

[@jamescaldwell9608]

Critical defense is where it's at. Really expands the capabilities of the caliber it's used in. Bumps up my .45acp to FBI specs when normally it'd fall short on penetration with regular ammo

[@bensears7499]

Same with the 30 carbine and 9mm Makarov.

[@zackzittel7683]

@@jamescaldwell9608 every 230gr HP easily passes minimum 12” every time.

[@WayStedYou]

and underpowered .22 hornet

[@billy56081]

If it were a locked breach design it would equal or outperform a Hornet slightly.

[@brianhoxworth3881]

​@@billy56081always thought a mini action 5.7 bolt gun would be pretty good. Intermediate power, ok for foxes, coons or the occasional coyote around the farm.

[@tihnsorfjw]

darn I really need that part 2 to drop like tonight

[@ml.2770]

I don't know, I recall General Jack O'Neill was a pretty stout fan of it. Holds up staff weapon "This, is a weapon of terror. It's made to intimidate the enemy." Casually tosses it aside and holds up P90 "This, is a weapon of war. It's made to kill your enemy."

[@daily4020]

I see 5.7 as a novelty cartridge. It doesn't seem super effective because of a lack of contract support for it. 10mm works but many can't handle the recoil. Unfortunately the same can be said about 40 or 45 but the cost, capacity and +p versions of 9mm make a good replacement argument. 357 Sig was covered in a previous video but most loadings are underpowered and departments who had seen it in action keep using it from what I hear. No such stories about 5.7. Its fun though. I await part 2.

[@Blankford777]

Dang, need pt2 ASAP. I picked up the S&W 22 Magnum instead of the S&W 5.7 because of this very same thought process and I need that sweet sweet confirmation bias.

[@jordanwilliams6972]

Why would you choose rimfire over centerfire? Unless it's a range toy of course

[@Stevarooni]

​@@jordanwilliams6972Neither would make a great carry or home defense round.

[@Blankford777]

@@jordanwilliams6972range gun yea. Plus ammo is cheaper

[@mikewithers299]

​@Blankford777 good choice in my humble opinion. Ammo is cheap and obtainable

[@Watchdog_McCoy_5.7x28]

​@jordanwilliams6972 these comparisons are misleading at best though because velocities listed for 22 mag are typically from full length rifle barrels and velocities from 5.7 are typically short pistol barrels or short SBR length barrels. When compared in barrels of equal lengths, the 5.7 is clearly superior. Just fyi, because this is so often overlooked or deliberately not mentioned, and it's not fair to consumers trying to make educated decisions.

[@SaftonYT]

I read an anecdotal account from a medical examiner conducting an autopsy of a suspect who was killed by an entry team using P90s and he spoke in complimentary terms about the 5.7x28mm, something about how the wound cavities were something he would have expected from a larger round. But that was years ago on one of the nebulous thousands of gun forums out there; no way I'd be able to find it now. So take it with the truckload of salt that it deserves. IRT to the Fort Hood shooting, the way it was put across to me wasn't so much that people were saying "5.7mm is effective because it killed lots of people!" but rather because during the incident, there were victims who attempted to intervene by physically rushing toward the shooter in an attempt to restrain him. They were shot and immediately incapacitated on the spot. I am loathe to use any kind of criminal victimization as evidence for terminal performance, but if these anecdotes are remotely true then I could see how one might argue that they are *somewhat* more analogous to a defensive application than simply looking at the victims of mass shootings in general. The whole thing is still pretty icky, though.

[@EntryLevelLuxury]

Don't shy away from using the terms! Hydrostatic shock is the name for tissue damage caused by the permanent cavity surpassing tissue elasticity. Great video!

[@JusticeFreedomDestin]

This is a good eye opening video. I hope the AP tests/info make this round worthwhile, especially with the rise in gun manufacturers adopting this round

[@electric_boogaloo496]

Regarding temporary wound cavity, FK Brno has tried to quantify "stopping power" as follows. Dynamic Shock Index [DSI] = Meplat Diameter x impact velocity - (1500-impact velocity) x sectional density I understand the a company like FK Brno has vested interests in promoting the 7.5 FK round by inventing a new metric where their bullets excel at. But even when we look at raw energy ft-lbs (SBR 10" 5.56 class energy), 2000+ ft/s velocity, sufficient bullet mass (95+ grains), it does look impressive. There are some handgun hunting videos around that would support the claims of its "stopping power". For the sake of arguing "stopping power", can you try to make a presentation comparing the numbers from different pistol and rifle rounds?

[@mentorofarisia371]

You have the best analysis of ammo on the Tube. For one thing, you typically fire 5 rounds into gel, not just 1.

[@Imragnar1]

The very best reveiws on the internet just wish u did a lot more thanks for being there

[@ds5503]

Argument for 5.7 over 22 mag is same as 25 ACP over 22 lr, centerfire is more reliable and feeds better from a magazine. Look forward to part 2. Thanks!

[@harrypeterson9287]

More powder capacity, higher pressures and more potential. Much of that potential isn't being exploited with off the shelf ammo. Close to 2,100fps is completely achievable with a simple 30gr FMJ bullet from a 5 inch barrel with the 5.7x28. No manufacturer will do it because it could defeat IIIA armor.

[@ds5503]

@@harrypeterson9287 Wowza. Would that de-feet the porpoise of buying a 5.7 due to osteoarthritis? That's why I was looking at one.

[@harrypeterson9287]

@@ds5503 No marine mammals would be left missing their appendages I can assure you. Less kick than a 9mm, even the stuff from Elite ammo...

[@sbreheny]

@@harrypeterson9287Several manufacturers do it and yes it will defeat IIIA armor. The legal restrictions on FFLs selling handgun AP ammo are based solely on materials used in the bullet. There are no performance-based restrictions.

[@harrypeterson9287]

@@sbreheny I'm aware of that, so is Federal, FN and everybody else making 5.7 ammo. Just a plain 30 grain copper jacketed lead core FMJ loaded to full power would fly off shelves and they know it, but they won't.

[@pewpewTN]

5.7x28 is like 10mm in the sense that most factory ammo can be less than 50% of what the cartridge should be. Real 5.7x28 ammo can get very close to 400 ft/lbs (maybe even higher) in a handgun & significantly more in a PDW/carbine. So for me, I will just use the .38 per round stuff for most of my training & use the real ammo more conservatively. The best tip I could give people that want full power for every shot is to buy the cheaper ammo, pull the projectile, load it properly, then re-seat the projectile. Reaching over 2000 FPS with a 40 grain projectile for a handgun is very easy with 5.7x28. So people need to know that most of the info you gave is using the crappy ammo that has been purposely underloaded to try to mitigate the "AP" claims.

[@masonlariscy9143]

I've wondered if 5.7 suffered from 10mm-itis for a few years, and I'm glad someone has come to the same conclusion. 5.7 might just be starting to hit a golden era

[@TurboTaco2JZ]

I can't tell if it's deliberate or just incompetence by the popular KZbin channels to ignore this fact. The majority of popular 5.7 videos showcase the most watered down options and try to pass it as conclusive evidence. Imagine if the general 2A audience was shown 10mm offerings with the performance of 40S&W. They would easily be able to point out the farce. I wish the same audience could point it out when the exact situation occurs with the 5.7x28.

[@BcFuTw9jt]

Zero of that is true, I've used your "real ammo" and the difference if any wouldn't be enough to make a difference

[@pewpewTN]

@TurboTaco2JZ I think it's mostly incompetence. They just don't know anything about the cartridge. All they do is read or watch the stuff that the guy before them published. Trying to pump out content that will get clicks. Buffman's Range does some really solid testing with everything from crappy bulk ammo to the high end stuff, so he is a great source of info on the 5.7x28 game. He has been at it for years. I got into the cartridge about 10 years ago & he is the person I got my info from when I was first dipping my toe into the water.

[@TurboTaco2JZ]

@BcFuTw9jt you are right 1700 fps vs 2300 fps is insignificant and I quote "the difference if any wouldn't be enough to make a difference" It makes so little sense that it makes any sense but enough sense

[@billytube325]

Ive interviewed countless people after working shootings and almost every person ive spoke to didnt realized they were shot for about 30 sec. This includes an officer that had his ankle shattered by a 7.62x54r.

[@TheLazyM]

This was never designed to be a primary weapon. It was for rear stationed troops or drivers. It was not meant to be a primary battle rifle or assault rifle cartridge. It does what it was intended to do.

[@jeffreystarits2783]

you can't overlook the fun factor

[@PineyJustice]

Absolutely not. 5.7 is about double the performance of a 22 magnum out of an equal length barrel. FPS to energy is NOT LINEAR so a difference of 400 fps equates to a 125 ftlb energy difference, 150 vs 275 out of the 4" barrel. And there are spicier loadings of 5.7 available that make this spread even bigger. Secondly, it's far more reliable, you can use 5.7 in a carry/duty gun while 22 mag is way less reliable by the nature of being a rimfire.

[@dannyd.9932]

IIRC the secret service uses the P90 for its compactness but they also like 10-14” AR15s

[@cramsa]

5.7 only has an advantage when military grade rounds against body armor. If the target has no body armor (like 99.9% of civilians) then it’s a disadvantage to use 5.7

[@certaindeaf8315]

Perhaps the .44 magnum they compared it to was a .22 short. Honest mistake.

[@Two_Years]

I feel like 5.7 would be best as a survival or bug out caliber to replace .22 if your wallet can handle it. I would be very impressed by something like the ar-7 in 5.7. The caliber is lighter than many other calibers, and has the benefit of having a more reliable primer over rimfire. Just a thought.

[@Stevarooni]

Basically, a PS90 (with shorter barrel) fits what you're talking about. I'm sure there are good, sturdy cases for a PS90 that would add durability and the ability to float.

[@max-zv7sf]

5.7's ballistics are very close to .22Hornet. Used in the M4 and M6 survival rifles during the ww2- Korea period. Probably i would still give the nod to the Hornet, given that its rimmed case works better for lightweight break action gun combining a shotgun and a small bore rifle barrel.

[@Enjoyer.762]

Bug out is a dumb concept.

[@Two_Years]

@@Enjoyer.762 I agree. Just stay in. I just don't have another term for it. Hiking/backpacking gun?

[@TedJ71]

Try to replace that ammo in that situation !

[@life_of_riley88]

A quick (morbid) note on the Ft Hood shooting: Though 13 people were killed, 30 more were wounded. . .this does not show great results for the 5.7 against human targets.

[@RelationshipAndTruth]

I am not a fan of 5.7x28, but I tend to discount the data on effectiveness from military and LE sources. The main LE-only round in 5.7x28 is known to be a poor performer and thus military/LE sources are going to be biased against the 5.7x28. That doesn't make the 5.7x28 a good round--it just means a particularly bad round has gotten the most press.

[@LuckyGunner]

That's fair. We've seen the same thing happen with other various military cartridges getting a bad rap because they're limited to FMJ.

[@avwillis5269]

My typical response to the Fort Hood attack argument would be to point out that the Virginia Tech shooter had similar results with a .22 lr handgun.

[@RazorTube55]

He used both a .22lr and 9mm.

[@Hornet135]

@@RazorTube55 and they were locked in a classroom.

[@viniciuslima88]

Always wonderful and well explained videos. I really wanted 5.7 to be great and I blame Counter Strike for that....heheheheh

[@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812]

The 5.7 is actually a pretty legit round for handgun range/uses. Very similar to yes, but better than the .22 magnum.

[@chrisk1224]

Thank you so much for your videos. The Lucky Gunner ballistics videos and online database of ballistics gel tests are an incredible resource for the shooting community. It was obviously much more time-consuming to do carefully photographed and measured ballistics gel tests than it would’ve been to shoot a bunch of watermelons but the result is useful scientific information rather than clickbait. Thank you!

[@Andrew-jm4tp]

"Stop shooting me" -Best quote to kill a cartridge

[@TheFps12]

I always knew it was lacking. Only thing that makes it that much better than something like .22mag is its center fired so its more reliable and there are more "tactical" modernized options for 5.7 than .22mag when it comes to self defense/duty. If they made .22mag center fired and there was more carry/duty options chambered in it, it would be where 5.7 is now but cheaper.

[@sterlingroberts6240]

Cartidges like these are designed for support personnel, where the flatter trajectory and low recoil are likely more important than raw power or penetration. The compact size of the actual firearms is also a strong consideration. Expensive ammunition matters less than with the average frontline infantryman, as support personal won’t need to fire their weapons as often.

[@coleymoke6709]

Can't find Part 2 on KZbin.

[@tonytable1537]

Thanks for making these videos. Looking forward to part 2. 5.7 is a weird temptation that keeps popping up. Flat shooting, high capacity, standard footprint. Every time I get close grabbing one, I look into reports on the terminal performance, and back off. I keep hoping that one day, Newton will be proven a liar, and some new voodoo round will kick this cartridge up to 9/40/45 performance. On that day, my funds will not be safe.

[@deecord]

Fort Hood, 2009. FN 5.7 and a 357 revolver killed 10 soldiers and wounded 30 in 10 minutes.

[@charliefoxtrot5001]

A mass shooting in a gun-free zone certainly isn't a measure for self-defense ammo.

[@deecord]

@@charliefoxtrot5001 But it's a more accurate representation of the rounds capabilities over an officers account of "Please stop shooting me" because I can't seem the find that to support his story.

[@charliefoxtrot5001]

@@deecord Again, it certainly isn't a measure for self-defense ammo. The dynamics of an active shooting in a gun-free zone are just completely different from you defending yourself with a firearm against an attacker. Self defense is about stopping a threat as quickly as possible. How many people eventually bleed out in an active shooting scenario does not relate to that, at all. How many unarmed people were shot does not relate to that either. It is utterly nonsensical!

[@deecord]

​@@charliefoxtrot5001 This is why old people have issues with technology. Did I say anything about self defense? No, you're trying to steer the conversation in a way I'm not. The only current available proof on the 5.7's lethality is through what happened at Fort Hood. No other persons 3rd hand account of hearing from a friend of a friend who dated a cop that told this guy a bullshit story isn't to be taken as facts. Although we live in a world where sad people such as yourself can take and twist what a person is saying to push your own view on the matter. I invite you to now go do your own research on actual shootings that have involved a 5.7 where the lethality of the caliber , or lack there of has been properly documented.

[@charliefoxtrot5001]

@@deecord Not sure what any of this has to do with old people and technology. I am also not sure why you think lethality is something to measure in a round in the first place and why an active shooting is proof of lethality. I am not addressing the bullshit story about "please stop shooting me". All I am saying is that an active shooting situation doesn't say much about the caliber or specific round being used when considering the number of injured or dead. There are a lot of other, more important, factors here that play into that. You know that .22lr is and .22 Magnum are way more lethal than 5.7, right? The mob used them in countless assassinations with suppressed guns. Is that a reasonable argument to make? No, absolutely not! Neither is yours using an active shooting. A pointy stick is lethal too! Lethality is not a measure, at all. If you want to use a gun for self defense, then the question is about stopping the treat, not killing the threat. That the threat may eventually die from his injuries is just a side effect. So, lethality is a side effect of the circumstances and not a measure of a caliber. Shot placement is a major circumstance, so is return fire and the person being shot getting medical attention afterwards. In any case, lethality is something that nobody should really care about. Instead, the ability to stop a threat is something to care about. Some people call it stopping power, but that's nonsense too. The overall consensus in the ammunition industry is to use the ability to wound or incapacitate as a comparative measure, along with situational factors, such as the ability to penetrate certain barriers a threat can hide behind. So, it is the overall wounding capability and barrier penetration.

[@toadamine]

"stop shooting me" [its starting to really hurt im done] hahaha

[@danielstuart3270]

Thanks Chris! Another interesting and informative video!!!

[@BenfromFlux]

4.6 and 5.7 amongst those who have used them in combat are notoriously underpowered and ineffective. The primary tier one unit who uses the Raider reached out to us because of this reason. We’ve heard many, many bad stories, with none good. I’d rather have good 9mm out of the 6 inch barrel from the PDW that I appendix carry, and can draw in 1.25 sec. Working on ammunition that will upgrade it even further.

[@ToastbackWhale]

Perp got shot “10-12 times”, asked to stop being shot, and ultimately survived. Yeah that’s 5.7’s mail in the coffin as far as I’m concerned LOL

[@MrProfchaos71]

Fort Hood shooting has entered the chat

[@jonanderson7241]

A completely unvalidated story, the only things validated is that it was 5.7 and the person died at the scene

[@thomgizziz]

@@jonanderson7241 So you take a story that nobody can confirm and then lie about it to make it seem like you know better... what is wrong with you?

[@jonanderson7241]

@@thomgizziz What are you even talking about?

[@mothman-jz8ug]

I remember when the hottest selling guns were rifles in some 17 caliber centerfire. The 17 Remington was tops in this, but other companies were producing factory rifles chambered for the 17-223. Yes, these things were top of the heap. They're still flying off the shelves, right? Yep, Ive seen more crops of "cartridge de jour" than resurrections of McRib. HERE'S THE FUTURE for the 5.7x28: This caliber will soar to great heights, with sales five years from now rivaling other greats like the 357 Sig and the 45 GAP. In ten years it will be moving like the 5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum.

[@balancedfordaylight1]

5.7x28 would be a cool plinking cartridge and a good low recoil option for some people in a carbine if the ammo did not cost a fortune, like if the ammo cost about the same as 9mm then taking a 5.7 carbine like the panzer arms AR upper would be a blast but when you consider that boxes of ammo cost 40-50 bucks in my area it makes me not want to buy one

[@trilobiteterror8015]

$40-50/box? That's an issue with your local shops, not the ammo. Online you can get 5.7x28mm for around $22/box of 50 ($25-30/box for SS197SR). Fiocchi has 150rd boxes at are usually under $70 (even in my local sporting goods stores). More and more manufacturers are making it as the demand grows and it'll continue to drop in price.

[@balancedfordaylight1]

@@trilobiteterror8015 where are you seeing 22 bucks a box ?? I have seen it online for 30-35 but that savings is usually offset by the cost of shipping

[@greatwhtrabbitt]

I know someone who was one of the first on scene at ft hood. What he described was terrible. Won’t go into details, but 5.7 at close range is absolutely lethal.

[@GiveMeYoSammich]

Love how this drops after garand thumb called the 5.7 an overpriced 22 magnum 😂

[@LuckyGunner]

Hah, yep. That meme is at least 15 years old, though: i.imgur.com/PUaDv.png

[@Thisthat1234]

This and the recent Garand Thumb 5.7 really compliment each other

[@Rusty_Spiggle-Smith]

5.7x28 was chosen because shit jumped off with the war on terror and the guns and ammo were already in production and available not because it was the superior round in the trials. 224 BOZ (10mm necked down to .22) for example was a way more powerful and capable round in the same tests. It was better in every way except ammo capacity and felt recoil. 224 BOZ is unobtanium today, but 9x25 Dillon (10mm necked down to 9mm) is available and it is a better cartridge than 5.7, not quite 224 BOZ, but along the same vain in my opinion. with modern light weight 9mm projectiles in the 50-69 gr range it is very possible to hit 2500+ fps out of a handgun with a 6" barrel beating m855 in a 10" ar-15 largely due to the relatively faster burn rate of the powders that are used in pistol cartridges vs rifles. I have a 9x25 Dillon pistol that I plan to prove this with soon. got a Garmin chrono on the way, ransom rest, variety of projectiles to test, and the dies to roll my own tailored loads. All i need is a custom set of grip inserts for the RansomRest that I am currently trying to design in Tinker cad and print.

[@blantant]

Also people can reload 9x25 without issue and forming brass is simple. Deapite the demand for remanufactured/reloaded 5.7 i haven't seen the market provide an alternative to factory 5.7 offerings. It's always going to hurt the wallet investing into 5.7

[@Rusty_Spiggle-Smith]

@@blantant exactly plus at the end of the day there isn’t enough case capacity for 5.7 to be anything special out of a handgun unless you’re using special materials in an attempt to penetrate hard things but that isn’t useful for normal defense purposes at all. 9x25 on the other hand is a pistol cartridge that performs like a rifle. Lots of options given the wide variety of .355 projectiles could have heavy subsonic rounds and pissin hot solid copper Lehighs staged in different Glock mags and run a hell of a perfect pair with a PCC that also takes Glock mags