Gaza & Frantz Fanon on Violence

[@guiomar-jijiflorez-flowers9180]

I actually found Fanon very enlightening Pills, theory does matter.

[@ontotheological]

I just want to say I do not believe Fanon is as optimistic about the dialectic of recognition as a solution of resolving colonial dehumanization as people believe he is. I think people read him too humanistically.

[@Willzp360]

This one was painful to listen to. Please, no more current events pods for a while... at least until Victor reads literally anything about Israel-Palestine not written by CBC

[@genathing903]

Agreed

[@haingo9079]

First time listener here - I can conclude that the one host who is providing a lot of pushback has never been pushed to their limits and doesn't come from a community that has never had to go through this sort of thing. He assumes that at this point, the Palestinian resistance somehow should've "KNOWN BETTER" and resorted to non-violent tactics or should've "done resistance well", given what they have been through. There's this assumption that they SHOULD'VE KNOWN that Bibi would've reacted this way and that they SHOULD'VE done their homework on the Israeli defense strategy. It demonstrates a thorough misunderstanding of the psychological impact of occupation and what the priorities of the people are.

[@oliverholzl8606]

A few points that are unclear to me (maybe someone has their own thoughts): The people of Israel went during the past millenias through various episodes of suppression in various forms - and as I understand it, in the past there has never really been something that, in Fanons words, could be described as a "therapeutical" enfreement through violence. So if we use Fanons theory about the justification of violence with regard to the whole conflict, what does Fanon say about the unresolved suppression found in the people of Israel? He talks about the chances, that the suppressed can become new suppressors, but who is to blame in this case? He argues that everyone, the suppressors as much as the suppressed, have some kind of responsibility. So if Israel would have become the actual suppressor it is actually to blame, but in equal parts so would be the former suppressors, who made them to what they are now. Sartre speaks in the prologue of Wretched of the Earth about the "real enemy", who is often forgotten when the suppressed get into conflict with each other - could it be argued, that we somehow inherited the guilt of our ancestors, who caused so much pain, and does this bring some responsibility for us to resolute this conflict - or would that be another act neo-colonialism?

[@weakboson7813]

Hi a fair question. I think the issue is that we shouldn't conflate Jewish people with 'the people of Israel'. The history of the Jewish people is not irrelevant, but we must ask, who are the people of Israel? well as the nation is currently constituted it is a settler-colony founded on the violent dispossession of the Palestinian people. the state of Israel was founded on this basis and that is its history - its status as a colonial project (not whatever Jewish character it may or may not have) is what brought together the people into the polity that currently oppresses Palestine. The Jewish people, on the other hand, is a much broader group of people that exist independently of Israel as a category. The prevalence of antisemitism was certainly present as a justification for Zionism, but the ensuing violence was not directed towards the oppressors of Jews in Europe. You can make a compelling case for drawing a distinction between, say, a holocaust survivor moving to Israel in the 20th century, and a modern european or american settler doing so now. But, I think we can also say it would be wrong in both cases. Western nations certainly have their share of guilt when it comes to antisemitism and colonialism, but I would say support for Israel among them is more due to an active love of the latter, rather than latent guilt for the former. But aside from this the USA, UK, Germany etc do have a responsibility to end this conflict - because they are actively enabling it by providing Israel with military resources.

[@mazzipizzazz]

No rational person is celebrating any of the death that has come from this and this act of liberation was inevitable. Of course the current global power structure is in support of violently crushing this resistance that is to be expected. What wasn't is the resounding support for Palestine we've seen all over the world. We are seeing where the lines are actually drawn in this system and it doesn't correlate at all to the current divisions we have lived with. I don't think it's being an idealist to hope for the violence to stop especially as most civilians are in support of that even as we see the power structures prepare to ramp up.

[@weakboson7813]

there's a suggestion that israel's response to oct 7 was inevitable, and that i think is a very dangerous as it basically amounts to apologia for genocide, and removes the moral responsibility of of the genocide away from those perpetrating it. the fact that an action induces a reaction does not suspend moral culpability. in general this episode is pretty difficult to listen to. a certain amount of ignorance and incuriosity from some of the hosts results in an unenlightening conversation.

[@TheYopogo]

There's always this total category slip when anyone talks about this. Yeah, Hamas and Israel both bad. Everyone sane knows that. But they're totally different *types* of bad thing. Hamas did a terrorist attack. That's an event. A specific act. Israel is an Apartheid regime, governing both the Israeli population and the Palestinian population. And the system that it governs them under is a system of extremely violent, racist Apartheid, with an ongoing ethnic cleansing moving rapidly into genocide. That's what it's like out there when it ISN'T in the news. When it goes back to the status quo of a system of Palestinians and Israelis being segregated along ethnic lines and Palestinians living and being killed as second class citizens because of their race. That's the type of regime it is. It's not that Israel DOES specific bad things, it's that the permanent situation that Israel has been imposing since at least the 60s but really the 40s is itself bad *regime*. That's a totally different thing. That's what's always abolished, or repressed if you like, in discussions of this. It's always "Palestine did this, Israel did that, Palestine did that, Israel did this. Aren't they both so bad, it's a cycle of violence", all the while totally ignoring the background against which that violence is happening. Which is a regime of Apartheid. Focusing on each instance of violence, Israeli *or* Palestinian, is precisely the Israeli propaganda strategy, to obfuscate the real issue here, which is that all of this is happening within an Apartheid regime.

[@ivi985]

And that's why calling Israel an apartheid regime actually is antisemitic. This is just hitorical revisionismus whit the goal of demonizing israel.

[@mileswilliams9737]

I'm surprised you could just blow past the word terrorist without inspection. That word came into our vocabulary, everyone's vocabulary, attatched to a curated mental image of a deranged violent maniac. If I tell you to do as I say or I'll hit you, that's still just politics. If I hit you and say do as I say or I'll do it again, that's terrorism. If you hit me on multiple occasions, whether I do as you want or not - any perceived slight gets me a beating, then one day I hit you back... Am I then a terrorist? What if I say "stop hitting me now or I'll hit you again"... Now am I a terrorist? Palestine isn't trying to take anything that isn't theirs by right. They're not really pushing for any thing but human treatment. There are many instances of violence against them, on a personal scale even people working with Isreals government have received this inhuman abuse at a whim. So... How can you apply the term terrorist to hammas over Isreal when there's a coercive threat of violence in every interaction with Palestine, even in its very existence

[@blaisekroma9689]

Peace begets violence (or vice versa) is much more dialectical than violence begets violence.

[@rednotdead89]

Always appreciate these good conversations. Victor (I believe?) seems so sure that the brutal Israeli response is a disaster for the Palestinian cause (regardless if it's inevitable or not), but he doesn't get challenged on this. Why does he not consider that this brutal, nakedly vengeful response where the veneer of Israeli legitimacy is torn away acts as a "mask off" moment that accelerates world sympathy (including in the West as we've seen) for Palestine? Even the news anchors in mainstream media can't hide their shock at the callousness of IDF spokespeople justifying hospitals and refugee camps being bombed and children being burned and crushed and starved. Of course people following the situation have long known this is Israels approach to terror, but never has it been seen at such scale, in such high definition on live TV. He talks about Hamas' terror operation as if it were an ill-considered, reactive outburst - why does he not consider that Hamas is an experienced and capable political/military force that almost certainly gamed out the scenario we are in now as a probable (and desirable) outcome to their attack?

[@nickipedia1]

“Why does he not consider that Hamas is an experienced and capable political/military force?” Prejudice.

[@genathing903]

Jesus this is painful. Victor if you’re so obsessed with success of a tactic, violence from the colonized has resulted in the overthrow of all of the overthrown colonial regimes.

[@cdonovan72]

Disagree, looking towards US indigenous, violence didn't allow the overthrow of Europeans. Further, Israel's colonization is not one of economy rather just racial. Gaza's resistance isn't disrupting capital, it's reinforcing the US military industrial complex.

[@genathing903]

@@cdonovan72I wonder if there are any other examples…

[@ethen2855]

yo deep voice guy is just so misinformed

[@benzur3503]

What book of Fanon were you quoting?

[@oscarwilliams1738]

Wretched of the earth

[@wolvie_b]

Usually I use philosophy to understand the world... but sometimes I need to use it to escape from the immediacy of the horrific stuff going on everywhere. Can't listen to this one... Not yet😢

[@nickprobst6841]

The politics of this is much broader than Palestine/ Israel. Syria, Lebanon, Iran, and others in the region are already getting involved. As someone on the pod mentioned, public opinion in the west - especially the U. S. Will play into the evolution of events.

[@mileswilliams9737]

If someone is sitting on your chest beating you bloody and yelling that they're going to kill you over and over, should you be worried that by resisting you're going to make it worse? That's sick.... If you don't know that's the exact situation then you really haven't done enough hw to do a video like this on the topic. I'm sorry to take that tone but a single day of looking into this, hearing a few of the many sound bytes of Isrealis calling for genocide and claiming it's not only the only solution but just - gods will, even...seeing personal accounts of Palestinian suffering, all the ways they have tried as a group and as individuals to calm the bloodlust theyre subjected to, to coexist, is absolutely sickening. I think it's telling that the conversation has been anti violence theory vs a cry to recognize the reality of the situation - not a presentation of theory supporting the value of violence

[@CuriousCattery]

I'm not sure you understand the history of the region. Everything you say is true except in reverse. Israel calls for peace, Palestine attacks.

[@CuriousCattery]

Just in case someone is wondering what the word condemn actually means: Condemn: express complete disapproval of, typically in public; censure.

[@IlianaFigueroa-w3n]

Whoever the hell is saying shit abt violence of Palestinians needs to study… Lmao

[@mileswilliams9737]

Hamas was voted for. Palestinians have seen everything attempt to reason with Isreal fail. Hamas isn't just some random sect, Palestinians DO support it. And comparing sending Canadians back to France with removing Isrealis is silly, everytime there's any violence from Gaza many Isrealis, who have haven't been there a century even at most, go back where they came from.

[@shannonm.townsend1232]

Most recent poll allegedly shows 40% Palestinians support Hamas; keep in mind that's only 25% of Gaza population. (half the population too young to vote).