Geek Climber: A Genius or a Quitter? | An Analysis of the Front Lever

[@kodineg.strength]

Ok first time uploading a video and the hd hasn't quite processed yet, so sorry for the poor quality.

[@alexbarcovsky4319]

An asian used math I dont understand to discourage me from training the front lever. Now, another asian used math I dont understand to encourage me to get back to training it. I see a pattern forming.

[@aldensavon2247]

This comment got me dead 😭😭

[@aydinsha]

His issue is that he only trains for these moves using weighted calisthenics. Instead of trying to work out his whole body in a traditional way (bodybuilding/powerlifting, what have you). He has a full video about how strength doesn't mean looking muscular and that's why he can do heavy pullups while looking scrawny. That may be somewhat true, but at the end of the day, if he became overall stronger by putting on more muscle, he absolutely would be able to do the front lever. I was a collegiate gymnast. We absolutely had people with "shorter arms" that could do front levers and far far far far more.

[@spyro-maniac2607]

I'm early in my calisthenics journey currently trying to get the muscle up and I'm progressing quite well. I have low body fat and I'm thin but I am muscular, I was wondering if later on in my journey I would have to put on weight through lifting?

[@vOddy75]

@@spyro-maniac2607 If you want bulky legs, yes (weighted pistol squats will work, but you need to use some more weight than your body's). For the rest of your body, no. For push ups, you can make it to the ends of the earth without adding weight: Normal push ups Push ups with your legs on a box Archer push ups with your arms on a box Normal archer push ups Archer push ups with your legs on a box One handed push ups with your arm on a box Normal one handed push ups One handed push ups with your legs on a box When you can do more than 12 consecutive repetitions, replace one repetition with the next level. When you can do more than 12 doing that, replace one more, until you're doing the whole set with the next level, and so on until you're just doing one handed push ups with elevated legs. You can also insert levels in between these if you wish, by changing how much you let the other arm assist in archer push ups, or changing how much elevation you use. When you can do more than 12 one handed push ups with your legs significantly elevated, then, it's time to add weight. Elevating the legs too much turns it from a push up, which is like a bench press, to a handstand push up, which is more like an overhead press. You can still progress to more difficult push up variations, like planche push ups, but those are their own moves that work a lot more muscles than just the ones a push up does.

[@BradleyGibbs]

His biggest issue is his refusal to gain weight. A bigger muscle has greater strength potential and improves his centre of gravity for levers.

[@BradleyGibbs]

​@@spyro-maniac2607you can put on weight through calisthenics, it's just generally less efficient.

[@anomaly3215]

wingspan affects the pulling angle

[@barkage]

That guy at the end hahahaha! This was a really good video man, you really covered everything and explained it in a way that even I could understand xD! I really hope you keep making videos 🙏❤️

[@ggeianeiss8925]

Ayyyyy my fav calisthenics channel👊🔥

[@vallenthorpe6495]

Also in the attempts he showed he tried to fully retract his shoulders and slowly raise into the front lever which is really hard even when you can hold a front lever for several seconds

[@kodineg.strength]

Exactly, training correctly is just as important as training hard enough.

[@michaelqiao7977]

great video man - well spoken and well edited with great counterpoints.

[@luizalbertopersonal]

I'm from Brazil and loved this video! Just subscribed

[@kodineg.strength]

Thanks so much! I will have more coming soon 👍

[@deepblouxstrength]

This video really resonates with me. I fell in love with the FL back in late 2018 and decided to fully commit myself to calisthenics in early 2019. I have not stopped training for it since. It has been a brutal, grueling journey that has tested my willpower and patience at every corner. I get emotional just thinking about it. I have talked to numerous people, worked with a coach, tried out every form of programming under the sun, and endured all sorts of injuries. It has been anything but easy. Yet, I'm still here. Still learning, adapting, and keeping my hopes alive. I think there's something to be said about the mental fortitude required here too. I agree with you that Geek Climber threw in the towel much too early. To everyone who asks themselves "will I be able to achieve the front lever?", my answer would be this: No amount of math or physics will be able to give you a definitive answer. You commit to a "yes" or "no", and then allow your actions to follow suit. Geek Climber chose to say "no", and as a result, he will not be able to achieve the front lever. For those out there who choose to say "yes", then you WILL be able to achieve it. It is only a matter of time. For anyone interested, my crowning achievement so far is a 4 second half FL (one leg fully extended, one leg in adv tuck position). I'm extremely proud of my form as well. It has taken me 4 years just to get this. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

[@georgepetrou501]

It sounds like your legs are huge and you're pretty tall for a cali athlete. I'm struggling with these problems as well. For a typical calisthenics athlete the front lever is sligthly easier than the one arm pullup, but for me, not even close. I have achieved the one arm pullup but can hold a perfect form advanced tuck front lever for 5 or 6 seconds, nothing more. It's pretty annoying but that just means that the grind will be longer, not impossible.

[@НиколайТобиас]

I do agree that calling things impossible is totally wrong and toxic. But saying that everybody that choses to say yes will achieve front lever eventually is just as bad. No, not everybody. You cant just do something on sheer belief

[@aahusk1]

​@@НиколайТобиасVery true

[@chriscox1535]

Have you achieved the full front lever yet ?

[@anomaly3215]

how often do you do weighted rows to actually strength the center back?

[@Koroar]

Man that was a great video, wish you did more!

[@him9394123]

hello, if I have heavy lower body (muscular leg) can I achieve FL too? thank you

[@kodineg.strength]

Yes, as long as your arms can reach your interdependent cm (hips).

[@deepblouxstrength]

I'm in the same position as you. I have an extremely heavy lower body (did a recent DEXA scan to confirm this, as if I didn't already know myself). I am in year 4 of training the front lever, and have no intention of giving up. Can currently do a half FL (one leg full extend, other leg in adv tuck position) for 4 seconds. My answer to your question would be: yes, but it will definitely take you a longer time to do so.

[@him9394123]

@@deepblouxstrength keep going bro , I am still stucking on the straddle front

[@ghassan_alsalhi]

Yes u can as long as you train on it !

[@grzegorzjedrzejowski5746]

This is the video response i was looking for

[@r.i.pmaple8450]

HOLY FUCK the elbow front just fking new my head off, how the heck did none of us think of that

[@kodineg.strength]

Haha yep 👍

[@asher9463]

that's a great video and sound quality bro

[@kodineg.strength]

Thanks bro

[@Gambit.style_]

I always say to the people that agree with geek that lesser angle means impossible to explain to me how the straight close grip front lever touch is possibble at all then, glad you brought that up !

[@zisischartampilas6601]

he just refuses to build any mussle thats his only problem and i dont andersand why he refuses to do anything about it it doesnt even have to be much jjust 3 mounths of basics will make a world of difference he has reached the maximum strenght that his physique can offer because he has been training for 5 years maybe more just a few pounds of mussle will icrease his max potential and will become a ton stronger 20:00 what he means by that is thats its gonna be imposible for him be an nba basketball player because he is short but you just gave him false hopes that he can do it and when he realises that he puts a tone of work in the sport and only manages to be slightly better than average thats where he hopes and dreams will be crushed and he might even become depressed and suicidal in extreme cases. Guys i dont think that you andersand just how much genetics and tallent play a role in someyones succes it can make a massive difference no matter how much you work in a sport you can be training for 5 hours a day optimize everything your diet sleep training everything in your life and if you have average genetics or tallent in that sport you will never ever be able to compete in a world wide level yes you will become very very good at it but its not enough for the top level and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool and he propably will realise that the hard way 20:30 oh and thats 100% the truth lmao but a person like that would be very rare to find so dont worry about that

[@barschbubi]

I think the important and true message you should take from his video is that it is indeed more difficult for some people then it is for others to achieve certain skills. Also what he tried to do is actually something very interesting, because he really tried to quantify why some people have a harder time than others. It's a complex problem regarding height, mass distribution, muscle insertions and so on..even though he might not have been very acurate with his ideas, I still like what he tried to do. Cause some people have in fact work years and years towards something like a front lever, with the move being close to their limits, while others gain it after 6 months.

[@average-team-kid]

I'm curious what you think of his video about increasing his reach. I don't appreciate the way you conveyed your thoughts, but the overall points are mostly solid.

[@racinggames1]

this topic came up some days ago again, another youtuber debunked him xD this youtube says that Geeks problem lies in his wrist because he is using the wrong grip, he is not applying torque with his wrists

[@shakirgains]

What a great video! If you're a student what do you study?

[@kodineg.strength]

Thanks! I am not in university yet but this video is mostly bio-mechanical physics.

[@rangaking3131]

I would say he has the strength but doesn't have optimal technique and that he doesn't have to train harder but should focus on perfecting his technique. (amazing video)

[@flh5959]

I think I have short arms, since whenever I buy long sleeve shirts they're too long. But I can still hold the front lever. Some people do the front lever on their wrists, making shorter arms, and like you say, what about victorian and such.

[@skillzset1066]

Excellent video. But we can simplify Geek's mistake even further. Since his ape index is negative, this would indeed put him in the below-average morphology range required to hold the front lever. However, then he proceeds to showcase his dedicated training time of 1 year and his current max strength output of barely doing 1 arm pull up. So he has below-average morphology, but has only put in average amounts of effort and has achieved average levels of strength. The mistake is obvious. Simply put in more effort and get stronger to offset the lack of optimal morphology. His arms aren't exceptionally short. Therefore, if he gets stronger and instead of doing only 1, he does 5-7 OAP, he'll get the front lever.

[@kodineg.strength]

Haha not a technical breakdown you did there but definitely true. Gotta say he’s a below par climber too. Can’t be blaming physics if it’s a skill issue 😂. Not what the video’s about of course but some things cant help but get noticed.

[@wargreymon2024]

Well done, you did the topic justice, learnt a lot Hope Geek Climber will remove the video and apologize

[@seby1447]

He shouldve used the math time doing sebi method instead of math

[@ghassan_alsalhi]

Sebi?

[@mahdi7d1rostami]

I was kinda convinced by his arguments but now I'm not so sure. One thing I don't understand is the emphasis on angle on his calculations. I would assume calculating the force generated by lat muscle relative to body weight is a better indication of how hard the move is for someone based on their anatomy.

[@kodineg.strength]

You got it right. So to clarify, Geek is right that shorter arms is harder when holding front lever. However, he claims that his arms are so short that he is a minority which in fact is incorrect, because the front lever can be held with minimally short arms by most people. In addition, short arms becomes easier the more advanced you become and longer arms is more difficult for most moves.

[@ghassan_alsalhi]

​@@kodineg.strengthlonger arm more hard ?!

[@kodineg.strength]

No, longer arms easier because of basic physics.

[@ghassan_alsalhi]

@@kodineg.strength yup but you said long arms more hard for most moves !?

[@kodineg.strength]

Yes for most other moves because of the moment arm. But for front lever, longer arms is easier.

[@eggdog1051]

Really good video man, nicely explained and excellent examples. Also love the use of flolit footage!

[@altesegaming4750]

Maybe he should do more lever work (holds, press, negatives, raises, etc) just adding time to the position itself (?)

[@mikemikemikemikemikemeup]

Even if you don’t understand the science in this video, just watch videos of people with different length arms, legs, and bodies. There are a ton of people with all different body shapes that are able to do it. And like he said, in the video, there are people that are able to do even harder variations than this with short arms. If this video didn’t convince you just look up videos of a bunch of different people doing the movement and that might help.

[@Polikjev]

he was fully correct about everything regarding himself

[@st-ok8qs]

Woaw man i thought dead front lever was even harder than victorian cross.

[@kodineg.strength]

I didn’t say anything about that in the video, but off initial thought they are both convergent moves, which means if your arms are just the right length then they are the exact same move.

[@lionelinx7]

Really comprehensive bro good shit. I left a similiar sentiment in a comment on his post saying how discouraging it is, bringing up examples of harder elements with harder angles, and criticizing his use of basic/incorrect use of 2d netwonian mechanics that dont accurately portray center of mass or respect how the body produces force. Do you have like a kinesiology or physics background or something?

[@kodineg.strength]

Haha no background at all, just a ton of research. Maybe too much 😂

[@Sk0lzky]

Bad false equivalents are bad: geek climber edition lol

[@jamesdazhongcook]

Nice analysis and love the examples you gave

[@MattsPS]

The point isn't that the equations quantify everything relevant, but they explain some of the most important factors why a FL is easier for some and more difficult for others. It's like dunking a basketball. It's going to be easier for tall people, and harder for short people. That's obvious on the face of it. The front lever is like dunking, but that's less obvious to most people.

[@MrJojoRoxx]

great video!

[@Kevin-be9iy]

i guess it’s his main channel point, but a case like this geek is just way too on the math and logical spectrum of body training. i wish he’d tap into some instinctual reflection sometimes or even just surface level observance, and the ladder could be done by seeing plenty of short guys doing front levers on youtube

[@nathanrakman5973]

wow this guys has an amazing channel he should start a poscast

[@kodineg.strength]

Thanks 👍

[@acogbosg3474]

Ppl who can hold SAT , 😢m i a joke to u?

[@palkakopalka2340]

Even if Geek is really wrong, but he pushed other youtubers to create videos :)

[@Vadimismrt]

keep it up!

[@laurens3236]

Look at geeks grip at the bar and the people in the pictures

[@OptiInfo00]

ANS: Quitter

[@aghisamPS]

Thatsss a nice argument

[@fastgames_pvp7705]

keep making videos please

[@kodineg.strength]

thanks 😭 I will be trying my best to

[@cedricl.marquard6273]

I have to agree with the point that the supposed near impossibility of the front lever due to arm length and centre of mass is an overextrapolation However, I do believe that arm length and centre of mass definitely do influence the difficulty. Mainly by changing the angle. If the arm length becomes close to infinite or the centre, if mass moved directly to the shoulders, the proportion of your mass that your muscles would have to hold would become zero as everything would be in line with you joints. Just like how doing a plank with the hands underneath your shoulders would be easier than one where they are basically in line with your shoulders.

[@kodineg.strength]

Rewatch the video maybe, I clearly state what you just said here.

[@simonnobiceps8318]

OP

[@Adumbfartzarano]

You did quite well. One point to reevaluate is the assumption that short arms makes iron cross easier. For a static hold such as cross, long arms or short arms doesn’t make a difference. That is because as peoples arms change length the tendon insertion point don’t change ratio. There is individual variability though. For example one persons chest inserts into their arm at a ratio of 0.1, where as someone else chest inserts further down the humerus at ratio of 0.15, that would mean that person can produce 50% more force.

[@kodineg.strength]

NO, variability is always singularly independent in any scientific situation. Comparison across different subject groups is invalid. Short arms is ALWAYS easier than long arms for iron cross. Every single subject in a theoretical case study will demonstrate an easier force output with the basing point at the elbows than at the hands. Evaluation of physics or any common principle must be examined through simple scientific study and observational point.

[@Adumbfartzarano]

@@kodineg.strength I don’t think your getting my point or understanding the science. Placing the ring on the elbow will make the cross easier yes but that’s adjusting the ratio of the lever. Levers are relative not absolute. A simple way to think of it is imagining a see saw. If a see saw is 1m long with the fulcrum in the middle you’ll need same force in each side to balance it. Imagine 10kg on the other end. You need to push down with 10kg. If you now make a see saw 100m long you’ll still need only need to apply 10kg to the other side. Human levers are the same concept. Required force is all about the relative ratio (where your tendons insert into the bone) of fulcrum, force and load

[@kodineg.strength]

@@Adumbfartzarano You would be incorrect here. You are addressing the lever itself rather than the leverage arm. In this case, the difficulty is dependent solely on the variable of torque determined by the weight and distance, thus affecting the force required. Longer arms will require a higher amount of force due the distance although the weight is kept the same. This is on the subject on the leverage/moment arm with all other variables constant. I understand what you are trying to explain here, but it would be more accurate to shift the see saw sideways across the centralized fulcrum or change the length of one of the sides. The weight placed on the ends are at varying distances and affected by the additional weight of the see saw, so they cannot be the same due to a change in the leverage. Changing the length of the arms affects the force required to stabilize the lever, not the actual length or components of the lever, which is what you describe in the see saw analogy. To clarify, this video was not created to prove any points or provide any unique arguments but was meant to prove a line of reasoning wrong through evidence, logic, and science. Other than terminology, I only addressed this subject to prove the arm length argument as fallacious due to the fact that the vic-cross requires shorter arms for less torque yet the front lever requires longer arms for easier leverage. The only point that I am getting across is that with longer arms, there is more force required. Tendon insertions and bone structure is all held constant. Here's a more accurate example: Take a door that has a certain length and a certain hinge size (might affect the door). We are not changing the door size or weight at all. Instead, we change WHERE we push the door, which is the same as the use of the leverage arm. The closer (shorter) you are to the hinge (fulcrum), the harder it becomes. In the case for your argument on tendons and anatomical properties, there will be a difference in correlation with a mechanical measurement, but the variability is the same.

[@andy._.w]

@@Adumbfartzarano also increasing it to 100 meters creates a very high torque which is what matters, even though the force of 10(9.8) N is the same.

[@sluijter]

This is interesting, I'd like to give my opinion as a physicist on this one . You are right that the force that needs to be exerted by your hands on the rings is not affected by arm length, only by the weight of the person. However, as mentioned already, the torque (units force X length) does increase with arm length and is a measure of the "twist" around a specific axis located somewhere inside the shoulder in this case. In order to balance this torque, to keep the body from moving down, the muscles inside the shoulder have to exert an equal but opposite amount of torque around this axis. Now, the amount of force this takes from the shoulder muscles all depends on their respective distances from the rotational axis. From this perspective, I would say that the question if longer arms makes it more difficult to do an iron cross can't be answered if you don't specify if the shoulders remain the same size or increase in size proportionately as well. Which reminds me of KODINEG explaining that your body adapts with training to do a certain move, which in this case (and for front lever) could lead to bigger shoulder muscles and/or further away from the torque axis. This in turn can be used as an argument against Geek Climbers' model, which in my opinion makes too many approximations, leading to a pretty large margin of error compared to the variance in his data (arm length, angles etc.), making his "nearly impossible" statement kind of cringey to me from a scientific perspective. Even though I did like his approach by mathematically modelling to explain why he can't do a front lever.. yea he's a quitter on this one, but I have respect for all his other efforts and accomplishments. Had to get that off my chest, haha.

[@dontletmememandie6506]

Nice video. I like to see followers of scientism proven wrong with actual science lol

[@kingleunglee]

The interesting thing is he can do a weighted front lever... kzbin.info/www/bejne/epKmm6aaYrOUm6c

[@kodineg.strength]

That’s not a weighted front lever, it’s counterweight to pull his legs up off the ground.

[@nomnomnom6666]

math battle between 2 asians :)

[@jamesdazhongcook]

lmaooo

[@seby1447]

Fake

[@stilllmkp]

his just lazy

[@anomaly3215]

nah i think he's just bad at optimizing, he says he can't FL then tries to do it in the worst way possible, he should be practicing front lever drops or he should be doing something like weighted rows to strengthen his center back

[@kevinchang2]

LOL

[@playb4work447]

How to make KZbin content, criticize someone else.

[@anomaly3215]

so lying to your audience about what is and isn't achievable for them is okay but calling it out is "criticising others"? what a miserable life you must live

[@DeepExpression]

He's talked himself out of it. Differences in anatomy can make certain things more difficult for some, but that is an excuse and a cop out. I can't do a front lever either, but that has more to do with the fact that I'm a fat out of shape 52 year old than the measurements of my arms. Regarding the subject of basketball . . . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shortest_players_in_National_Basketball_Association_history