What are the Nameless Things of Moria? | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth

[@spacewiz163]

“Be on your guard. There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deepest places of the world.” That quote from Gandalf sure has more meaning to it.

[@joshmaggard6]

Space Wix he said that before he fell with the Balrog when he saw them. That means he'd have to have been down there previously to know they're down there.

[@warrioroflight6872]

@@joshmaggard6 Gandalf wouldn't have necessarily gone down there himself, he could have just read about those old and foul things.

[@ieuanreynoldsrocks]

@@joshmaggard6 Gandalf wouldn't have to have interacted or seen these things to know of their presence in the world.

[@inventgineer]

I know, right? It's like, "Gandalf, BUBBY....you coulda just come right out and said "A horrid slimy beast that calls himself Donald Trump (despite really being named Donald Drumpf) will eventually rise from the darkest dankest bowels of the earth" and we would've been so much more ready.

[@inventgineer]

@@joshmaggard6 Well, if memory serves it seems to be suggested that Maiar (such as Gandalf) are innately attuned to the nature of the world of Arda -the nature of things within it; that they can kinda just "sense" when things nearby are wrong/corrupted (or in Sauron's case when things are starting to be too UNcorrupted and right lol, which represents danger to him). So I supppose one could make the argument he could have some kind of innate knowledge of them, or directly stumbled upon them prior DUE to his radar picking up their corruption and him investigating........but I dunno, Sauron ALSO being a Maiar, and not SEEEMING to have lost much or any of his Maiar powers, that wouldn't necessarily explain how Sauron was unaware of them. Unless. again: maybe a Maiar or Valar does, in fact, lose some of their attunement with life, nature, etc as their will becomes corrupted and distracted purely by the ruthless pursuit of power and control. *shrug* Maybe that's how Gandalf found or became aware of them where Sauron did not.

[@kylemacarthur9863]

When a master musician starts to tune their instrument, before the structure of the music itself, there are old, nameless sounds.... unholy creaking of worn leather cases, disfigured and discoloured metal hinges, the unintentional scraping of finger over string. With an entire orchestra tuning, believe me, many nameless things are created, none intended to be part of the performance.

[@mgreco712]

100%

[@kristianhaverasmussen8558]

Did you write this yourself??

[@kylemacarthur9863]

I believe I did!

[@AnkhAnanku]

@@kylemacarthur9863 bloody hell that’s fitting

[@kristianhaverasmussen8558]

@@kylemacarthur9863 wow! Good work

[@JacobSmith-rh2sr]

To conclude the video the nameless things are basically sentient creatures woven out of the disharmony of the music of the ainur, unintentional abominations that were results of Melkor's selfish ambition, but not exclusively his own creations as he himself cannot create life. Eru illuvatar probably had an image and plan for these "nameless things" but because of the disharmony of the music of the Ainur, they were twisted and forgotten, forever hating Melkor in the utter blackness for his corruption.

[@ppvk2610]

Yes that is a good addition to the theory spoken in the video.. That in combination of one other comment, who conveyed the possibility they were; " gardeners of rock, lava, "or such.. But through the discord be as they are, and therefor hatefull towards all, perhaps even themselves as well

[@Jon-pw2ik]

Sooo...youre sayin Eru fucked up?

[@Festucius]

@@Jon-pw2ik his planned work has got iterrupted and spoiled, so was the job botched? Yes. Was it Eru's responsibility? No.

[@Jon-pw2ik]

@@Festucius idk....if youre all powerful, and you've got a plan, and your plan gets fucked up, kinda seems like its your fault

[@Festucius]

@@Jon-pw2ik for whatever reason, the choir's song had to be used as the world's creation tool. Melkor's arrogance could interfere with it, which it did. So your question is more about, how could Eru permit Melkor's existence. If You are seriously interested in the matter philosophically, then in Christianity there's a whole section of theology concerned with the matter, i.e. theodicea.

[@landonmathews6111]

I always loved that despite LOTR being as expansive and in-depth as it was, it barely seemed to even scratch the surface of the world Tolkien had created.

[@aceofspadesguy4913]

The Dwarves literally dug deep enough to stumble across the resting place of unholy, abhorrent creatures from our darkest nightmares. An unsettling thought.

[@ChiodosBlowsDogs]

It's kind of fitting that the dwarves digging greedily to get more wealth would lead them to something so awful.

[@trossk]

How do you think the things felt? Wandering about, minding their own business, when suddenly a bunch of grouchy hairy things break into your home.

[@jakobfel2]

It really makes one wonder if similar beings exist on our real world if we were to dig deep enough in the right places.

[@Kholaslittlespot1]

Born in the dark we become the darkness. The light from above would surely burn.

[@santsastark9921]

@@ChiodosBlowsDogs And what made them so unreasonably greedy? The seven rings of power! Therefore, Sauron is indirectly responsible for the awakening of the Balrog and the downfall of Khazad-Dum. Boom.

[@lordbankai2492]

I will forever be convinced that Tolkien’s level of world building will never be outmatched.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Well he is the father of Modern fantasy after all :)

[@lucasfinrod3428]

I have goed great ideas for my own fantasy world and i am whriting about it. But i could never be as great as tolkien. Tolkien did inspire me mutch, so is it wrong to have 'almost' the same kind of elves and dwarves in my story?

[@railroadspikesareyummy7955]

Highly agreed

[@lucasfinrod3428]

@@railroadspikesareyummy7955 (youre is my) any tips on how i cant copy those elves? They are mutch the same but get these things from other sources

[@lordbankai2492]

@@lucasfinrod3428 Maybe 40-50 years ago, but I think its fine now. Mainly because Tolkiens elves and dwarves have been used so much in so many other stories. Everyone know their origin but in my opinion seeing what other people can do with those creatures is fun

[@genxtinct6207]

Imagine this: This would make an amazing "Souls-like" spin-off game where you play as a Dwarve starting on the outside of a mountain and going into it to explore a forgotten city of your ancestors. After about an hour of exploring and fighting Goblins you fight the first boss and then plummet into the depths of the mountain. This is where the tutorial ends... There you would only be faced with the option of going further down in order to get out. This would then mix more with a "Dead Space" vibe as you continuously encounter more and more grotesque seemingly eldritch abominations only to realize that you are not in Middle-Earth anymore and there is no way out. I would play that game...

[@huntclanhunt9697]

I'm not even a fan of Souls games and I would play it.

[@Draivynn]

This exists in Lord of the Rings Online! The Nameless there are terrifying, and continually mind-bindingly grotesque!

[@XXXRedCode]

I don't think the dwarves could survive or fight those abominations who possibly might be even stronger than the Balrog, maybe something like Elron, Glorfindel, Gandalf go on a special mission to kill these creatures might make more sense as only Elves and Wizards might have strength to kill these nameless things

[@3353080]

@@XXXRedCode If the dwarf in question is an awakened Durin... Who knows?

[@jacobhoover1654]

This is already a game it's called Dwarf Fortress

[@malachi5707]

How I wish Tolkien was born an elf so he could live long enough to finish the masterpiece he started.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah though it's cool that not all of the mysteries have a complete answer. It keeps the world alive :)

[@Shachza]

Finish? If he'd lived for thousands of years, we wouldn't have a completed world, we'd just have even deeper depths to plumb!

[@patrpb9473]

He would do better as iluvatar lol

[@malachi5707]

@@Shachza well said! 😂

[@TheRealNekora]

I kinda like thats unfinished for lack of a better word. Gives us fans of various degrees to theorycraft and speculate what might be. As well as leaves the world open for other fan projects like fanfiction and what ifs like "what if its was not Melkor but someone else of the Ainur that became evil?"

[@jasoncarto]

Imagine how terrifying it must have been for the nameless when, from on high, falling into their domain a battling angel and demon, wrath of terrible power.

[@audreydimmel6674]

Just chillin in my pond and then suddenly two demigods landed on my head.

[@thomaslardinois6383]

When a wizard and a fiery demon monster walk in on you plundering the fridge for shredded cheese at 3 in the morning

[@Scorecatron]

I'm of the opinion that the Nameless Things are so unimaginingly terrifying that Gandalf and the Balrog paused their fight just to get out of there.

[@d-man3589]

Once again we find the age-old truth "Cthulhu kinda goes with everything."

[@leonlacroix2638]

Fear of the unknown is all it is

[@gamer1X12]

eh

[@somebodysomewhere5571]

Not quite no I’m afraid there is no Cthulhu to be found here

[@kinginblack1120]

Yup, this is yet another crossover where reality warping entities are found in other worlds. It's in several fantasy storyline, including Game of Thrones, and Pathfinder, it is scattered everywhere.

[@84warhead]

@@somebodysomewhere5571 Usually when people say Cthulhu they actually mean "Lovecraftian Horror", which is really just "horror of the unknowable and incomprehensible". It's "Lovecraftian Horror" because Lovecraft popularized this trope, and Cthulhu is shorthand for all of that because it's possibly Lovecraft's most popular creation.

[@andreas8488]

Did you know that it was originally planned in the films, that there were going to be multiple Watchers like creatures swimming away from Gandalf and The Balrog falling into the lack, but it was never implemented.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah that would have been awesome to see! Though I guess it might have been a bit confusing

[@andreas8488]

@@GeekZoneMT Not as confusing as Denethor eating that tomato as if there were no tomorrow... (Denethor eating tomato flashback).

[@simoncss1]

Dear Andreas The 1/2 crazy 1/2 couldn’t-care-more manner Denethor ripped chicken & squashed tomato in his mouth, (to me) did provide perfect foil to Pippin’s song that evoked so much care & sadness 🎶Home is behind the world ahead And there are many paths to tread Through shadow to the edge of night Until the stars are all alight. Mist and shadow Cloud and shade All shall fade All shall fade🎶

[@PisstachioDisguisey]

@@simoncss1 add to the fact that Denethor just an hour before had sent his only living heir to his certain death. I love the way they shot that scene.

[@tequilawhiskey]

@@simoncss1 that, and the unmistakble imagery of the juice spill from his lip. Almost insultingly mocking the blood no doubt falling from the mouths of his soldiers sent to die. Great scene.

[@davis.fourohfour]

Tolkien straight up said things were in Arda when the Maiar and Valar arrived. IMO the Nameless things under the earth (which showed up in the last Hobbit movie) and *Tom Bombadil* were in the chaotic pile that the Valar used as raw material to build Arda. The Tolkien bestiary wasn't meant to be a complete list. The Hobbits themselves aren't in any old tales. Who knows how many beings aren't in the Legendarium. The flying mounts of the Nazgul were basically leftover flying dinosaurs. There were untold ages of Arda before the dawning of the First, waves of creatures, many eras. Nowhere is it said that Arda is the only or first project of Eru, or that the Choir was the first choir. Why was there a pile of stuff to make Arda from? Was it debris from another previous try? Were there survivors in that pile, the Nameless Ones, Tom Bombadils, plural, spirits and who knows what? Edit: Well done. Very well done. You read and understand the Legendarium. Edit: You resisted saying "Lovecraftian". That is impressive.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks man! I don't feel it's appropriate to call it Lovecraftian since I think it's more likely that both HP Lovecraft and Tolkien were inspired by Lord Dunsany :)

[@johnflumph8835]

@@GeekZoneMT Lovecraft explicitly sites Lord Dunsany as an inspiration for his Mythos.

[@Enforcer2811]

Pardon my ignorance, when do these things show up in the movie? Its been a while since Ive watched it and my memory is fuzzy :(

[@johnflumph8835]

@@Enforcer2811 They don't for the most part.

[@durrangodsgrief6503]

Their were two songs before the third maybe their leftovers from the chaotic songs and eru used them to create his world

[@pedroribeiro9896]

Would be absolutely overwhelming if a horror movie was made with this Canon from the Tolkien universe. Something in the likes of: middle earth, tales of the deep

[@FallenRingbearer]

fanfic scribbling intensifies

[@greghess9667]

A movie detailing Gandalf’s battle with the Balrog inside the tunnels

[@christopherjones6987]

That would be far scarier than anything ever released, I mean just look at those things...

[@inquisitorsneed2]

Khazad-Doom would be a great title

[@Kholaslittlespot1]

Would. Be. Amazing.

[@maxfieldstanton5005]

The film did alright in depiction of the Watcher IMHO. One of the more disturbing qualities of an octopus is that it looks like a severed head crawling along on tentacles. With the Watcher this is magnified by having sort of a “beard” of tentacles dangling from a perpetually frowning, nose-less face. Add to that the fins coming of the back of the “head” giving a sort of clown-like appearance. Now add that this disembodied head appears to be tilting back and making yawning sounds as it’s tentacles pull it out from the water with unnatural speed. We barely get a glimpse of it, how it works. The fact that Gandalf ran from it and not the Balrog is also pretty disturbing as well.

[@misterpractical]

Gandalf _did_ run from the Balrog amigo. He specifically told the Fellowship to *run* from the Balrog multiple times because he was the only one who could hope to face it and buy the others time to escape.

[@pythonking16.59]

Don’t forget that the Watcher also had insect-like legs towards the back of its body, which we only see briefly in the movie when it starts crawling out of the water. For a better view look up the figurine designed by Games Workshop based on the movie.

[@fatalos6855]

Tolkien created a whole world, and entire languages, but those things ? They're nameless.

[@yespls6260]

I think it's a very effective literary strategy. We humans have a strong, innate fear of the unknown and this really speaks to that

[@fatalos6855]

@@yespls6260 And they're even more terrifying coming from a man able to give names and words to a whole world, creating a balanced and defined universe And I honestly love it

[@MrChickennugget360]

@@fatalos6855 particularity when he gives multiple names to many things- when a mountain can have 3 or 4 names but you are speechless about these creatures that means something.

[@richardbarbaros5868]

It gives the sense that they're so immensely old that no creator was present to give them a name, or even if you did know it, you dare not speak it lest you draw their gaze onto yourself. Better than just mashing a keyboard to get a Lovecraftian name for them, anyway.

[@xaviotesharris891]

I also like to think their namelessness is in part due to Tolkien's not being immortal, that if he'd had more time he might have gotten around to naming at least a few of them.

[@froggisme9003]

Tbh the void theory on parr with Ungoliant’s origins is much more likely to me as ungoliant as a character is more lovecraft-like especially when she drank the fluid from the trees, where she became so grotesque that Morgorh even feared her.

[@antondavidovic3996]

Its not unlikely that Ungoliant was one of the evils born from the discord, her origin is shrouded in mystery and it wouldn't make sense for the Void to just manifest out of nowhere without something causing it.

[@MahoneyBadger]

Yeah, I like the fact that nothing feared her. As a Ainur he is near the top of the Valar power ranking system. Ungoliant existed outside that system so he level of power is more vague and he isn’t sure he is above her.

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

I dont think the nameless things were one species but various and diverse things.

[@warrioroflight6872]

Very likely and far more interesting to consider. I would hate it so much if in some great fantasy that the author made these cool mysterious horrors and never even came up with more than one species. Diversity is sometimes exactly what you need for a story to be epic.

[@ugadugaga4972]

Then throw down the line that implies that. We literally have like 1 line on them. Nothing is implied and making assumptions is dumb. I doubt tolkien even knew himself to be honest.

[@shyguy929]

I think of them as simply creatures that dont have a name. Just like in real life if a new species of fish was discovered in the deep ocean, before it was found and given a name. It would be nameless

[@andrewpaul8732]

If they were natural spawns of music they would all be one species but various races to the many harmonies of melkor and ilunvatar. Their song went on for ages before the creation of the Maia. I think we'd be horrified to know the extend of their number.

[@speeve1366]

Discourse in music, is quite diverse and chaotic in sound, it's likely none of them were the same, but simply spawned form the caustic chaos bequeathed to the world that as light gleamed upon Arda, they sunk into the eternal night beneath the world, finding home between cracks, and caves, a self, and natural made labyrinth they could find solitude within seems befitting of no natural form but of a formless amalgamation of nightmarish creatures beyond comprehension. In that there seems no formulaic uniform to bare. I feel in all of this, which feels very likely true, there was no single similarity between them, they we're not spawned with purpose, but a byproduct of Morgoth's dissonance to the music of his kin.

[@calebcarroll7641]

Tolkien, inspiration for cosmic horror. Makes sense given his time as an officer in WW1. The oppressive sense of death constantly looming over those fields coupled with a lack of knowing how death would find you... Afterall, they were using chemical and biological warfare in WW1. Plus, he was an officer, which means he would have ordered men to their deaths, running senselessly into that fog of death waiting just over the battlements.

[@attackmaster519]

@JACKSON FURLONG >Tolkien was inspired by real events *Angry Tolkien Noises*

[@SarahMacDonald1991]

He never based his books on the war.

[@stanleyhipkiss4690]

@@SarahMacDonald1991 inspiration for the book was found in religion, mythology, and poetry but also seeing the horrors of battle no one claimed it was written as a reflection of WW1

[@reesetorwad8346]

Hmmm...what year was it, Lovecraft died, having not had the pleasure that we have had, in the works of LATER writers.

[@trequor]

Unlikely. He was likely inspired by the same as his contemporaries (like Lovecraft)

[@FrostyFyre]

I hadn’t considered that passage from The Silmarillion OR the possibility The Watcher in the Water could have been one of The Nameless, amazing video! Bravo!

[@vardiganxpl1698]

I like how lovecraftian these Nameless Things, seem to be. It is always a treat when a seemingly, classical fantasy setting, managed to include some form of lovecraftian horror

[@berengustav7714]

Percy Jackson and The Olympians,Heroes of Olympus and Kane Chronicles by Rick Riordan despite being YA urban fantasy,has dark and terrifiying things like:"Typhon was scaly,his face was constatly shifting,each more hideous than the last,I stopped looking for I knew I would go crazy." "Whatever is in The House of Night was not meant for mortal eyes."

[@ChrisVillagomez]

​@@berengustav7714 I've had the same thoughts, imagine going to the literal Underworld and standing at the edge of Tartarus itself, the bottomless Pit of Evil himself. Even crazier is when Annabeth and Percy are IN Tartarus. The House of Night, the spirit of Tartarus himself, the evil curse demons, the poison and fire rivers, it's all absolutely terrifying by Lovecraftian standards. I was always a huge fan of Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, and Star Wars but in the past 5 years, I've done a huge deep dive into the lore of those 4 but also A Song of Ice and Fire, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, and general Lovecraft lore as well as real life mythology and the influences ancient mythology has had on modern humans. I have a kinda photographic/video memory so I really need to re-read Percy Jackson again honestly cause the mental imagery will be absolutely crazy now that I've seen and heard of such crazy things since my last read

[@trequor]

If you like video games, From Soft does this with everything they make

[@choughed3072]

Nameless things? I know them as Alan, Edgar and Susan. If you get to know them they are quite nice to be honest.

[@GeekZoneMT]

They sound less intimidating now though 😥😥

[@Shachza]

@@GeekZoneMT You're less intimidated now that you know one is named "Susan?" You must be a fantastically stoic person indeed. If you truly knew Susan...

[@davidandmartinealbon3155]

@@Shachza Susan isn't so bad, you just have to keep your distance and not annoy her. Jeremy on the other hand, is a completely different matter.

[@emiach]

My favorite poet is Alan Edgar Susan

[@shindari]

You forgot about the one named "Karen." Nobody likes to hang out with her...

[@sadek__4952]

Although I would really like to know about these things more, but I feel their mysterious nature is what makes them more interesting and so we can speculate and theorize about them. This just makes the world that tolkien created alot better imo. But as always great video dude keep up the good work ✌️

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah though we're never given a complete answer to it, and imo the speculation helps to beathe more life into their story :) A mystery with hints of answers so to speak

[@astrovarius543]

I think it's more immersive. It's like we're given concepts and imagery of things from the perspective and understanding of beings who inhabit the world. Like the learned lore of the ages, and all that is still unknown remains unknown.

[@JohnDoe-zl6qw]

By design. Tolkien - in part - sought to craft a mythos in the mold of ancient heroic Germanic oral traditions, of which _Beowulf_ is the most well-known. In such traditions, the monster or evil is usually vaque and poorly described in terms of its dimensions; as befits fear of the unknown. Tolkien interjected similar ambiguity into the worst of Middle Earth's horrors.

[@sadek__4952]

@@JohnDoe-zl6qw YEAH totally genius, idk if he ever thought his writing would get so widely known but he designed them to be world class. Just saw some girl today saying "don't read old white men's books" thinking she is so rad or a nice SJW and that made me so mad thinking about Tolkien.

[@kentrix9376]

We must face the long dark of Moria. There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world.

[@ppvk2610]

Right!.... Well found indeed..

[@Dinoslay]

Be on your guard.

[@_semih_]

It seems hes talking about the balrog here 🤔

[@ivkup1096]

He did not known about the balrog until he saw it with his own eyes.

[@teminternetemmordor7178]

You have no idea...

[@angryvaultguy]

Melkor (Morgoth) at this point sounds like that one kid in the class that always wants to annoy others by ruining everything

[@Revanbzn]

Basically yes

[@kirbymarchbarcena]

SAURON: These nameless ones are older than I UNGOLIANTH: Yeah, could have been better if I have not eaten the civil registrar

[@Lazarou101]

Love the idea of Tolkien's Cthulhu; a nameless, savage, incomprehensible eldrich abomination beyond the veil of reason and understanding, a being that terrifies the Fellowship's oldest and most powerful member, a being likely able to treat the lord of the rings as a cosmic chew toy...... just casually hanging out in a pond outside a cave that the party wanders past.

[@theStarkArts]

I never could grasp how powerful Gandalf is/is supposed to be, but I think the greatest testament to his strength is that he has walked away from beings like that and A) not shown any overt signs of PTSD; B) maintained strong morals and a loving character.

[@Lazarou101]

@@theStarkArts Agreed LotR has a very soft magic system and esspecially in the movies it's hard to gauge where many mythical individuals stand, also that shows more of Gandalf's strength of character really.

[@EM-vw7im]

@@theStarkArts I woukd say going toe to toe with Balrog and winning is the greatest concrete example of his strength

[@VK-sz4it]

@@EM-vw7im He leveled up after Balrog.

[@Lazarou101]

@@VK-sz4it Supposed to be a team kill but Gandalf stole the XP

[@jakjak9797]

I actually feel ungoliant was one of the “nameless” things, one of the corruptions of the music of the ainur.. and that the watcher in the water wasn’t so much a nameless thing but one of its offspring, much like shelob.. I think it’s fair to say that any ancient and original nameless thing would have been much more dangerous than the watcher, and would have scarred the fellowship too greatly.. the nameless things being the corruption and living personification of the very essence of things.. that’s my interpretation at least

[@huntclanhunt9697]

@popasmuerf Maybe they interrogated a Balrog after the War of Wrath?

[@Ohwhataguy]

@popasmuerf do you mean who was alive for it? Galadriel was. As were Cirdan and Glorfindel. And obv Gandalf. Also the Silmarillion isnt like the trilogy or the hobbit, in that it isnt an account written by the protagonists, but a chronicle of the history of Middle Earth.

[@IoanCenturion]

@popasmuerf Remember that Morgoth was very drained from his creation of all those Balrogs and whatnot. His power didn't lie in being amazing at personal combat; obviously he was extremely personally dangerous, but he did nearly lose to a single Elven king once. His power lay in deception, creation, and corruption.

[@professorx3060]

@popasmuerf The Silmarillion isn't written by people from Arda, but by Tolkien. It is a history of the world in chronological order, therefore it's objective.

[@jsyvret472]

@popasmuerf ungoliant drank the sap of the trees of the valar and became monstrously huge which is how she overcame melkor

[@jackolantern147]

I think they are creatures of the void like Ungoliant. When Melkor traversed the void looking for the flame imperishable, he came across these things, and his presence warped them with his evil. Some of them followed him to Arda and dwelt in Utumno with him. When Morgoth fell, they became independent and sought out the darkest pits to slumber, until the world is remade. Side note: while Morgoth is outside in the timeless void, recovering, I also believe that he is gathering a host of these eldritch abominations to serve him alongside his revived army in Dagor Dagorath.

[@coldghost86]

This I like!

[@juanausensi499]

I don't like the explanation 'creature of the void' much. I know that's what is in the books, but, if you think about it, it's the explanation of where she came from, but not how she came to be. In Tolkien's universe, only Eru can create living things, so having the void spawning its own creatures is in contradiction with that. I think the explanation of the video should be applicable to Ungolianth as well.

[@oghus]

@@juanausensi499 I don't think Ungoliant is really alive in the sense that Eru's creations are alive. Ungoliant is not really a being but hunger incarnate, more like a force of nature.

[@juanausensi499]

@@oghus In my opinion, it was alive enough to be a mommy of another alive things, like the giant spiders of mirkwood and Shelob. Or maybe we should consider their children also not alive? That begs the question of what 'alive' means in that universe. Because if you can have not alive but functional monsters, then Morgoth could have created them without the need of twisting preexisting alive beings.

[@ryco105]

@@juanausensi499 is Ungoliant living or in between ?

[@The_Cosmic_Navigator]

Shoggoths in the deep dark of Moria. Terrifying if you think about it.

[@zulfirdauszain8810]

That's heresy tech priest. Time for a mind wipe.

[@jojotheswede8444]

@@zulfirdauszain8810 i'll get the tools lord inquisitor!

[@hastur-thekinginyellow8115]

Accept my mark and I can save you from that mind wipe, Magos. I will show you power that even the Chaos gods couldn't conceive... you just need but accept my sign.

[@zulfirdauszain8810]

@@hastur-thekinginyellow8115 be gone foul creature! or face the emperor's wrath@

[@audreydimmel6674]

I think that the Watcher in the Water was not the only Nameless Thing that the Fellowship encountered in LOTR. When they come across one of the old guardrooms in Moria, they find an old, ruined well. And Pippin being Pippin (we all love him anyway) tosses a stone into it because he's curious about how deep it is. The stone falls immeasurably far before it hits the water below and echoes up the shaft very, very loudly. Gandalf scolds him but that seems like the end of it. Then, several minutes later, another sound comes up out of the well - the very distinct sound of a hammer: "tom-tap tap-tom." Then again: "tom-tap tap-tom tap-tap tom." Remember - unlike the movies, this is days before the orcs knew the Fellowship was there, and what would they even be doing in the shaft of a well? Tolkien never explains it, but I think it was one of the Nameless Things. Similar to the Watcher in the Water and its lake, the Fellowship has an odd feeling of apprehension about the well even before Pippin drops the stone into it. And afterwards Pippin wishes he could cover it up, even with just a blanket, fearing that "some unknown thing would crawl up out of the well." If it was indeed one of the Nameless Things, this tells us two things about them: one, that there are a lot of them, considering how the Fellowship encountered two in just a few days of coming to Moria; and two, that they are not only Eldritch nightmare creatures, but are also intelligent enough to know that that was not a rock that tumbled down by chance and were capable of sending a taunting message back. And that is a thought that makes my skin crawl. Also, I'm just going to admit it. When I got to this part in the book, I felt a really strong urge to turn on all the lights in my house and never turn them off again.

[@jonasfischer878]

"but melkor caused disharmony in the music" Well, that's one way to describe Yoko Onos musical talent I guess 🤷‍♂️✌️

[@pauloconnor5850]

😂😂

[@WreckingWood]

And Eru's eyes must have widened like Chuck Berry's across the cosmos.

[@whitealliance9540]

@@WreckingWood so you can now go see the master of darkness. Son of morgothhh. Father of all darkness. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGjVm3h7oJykb68 Amen

[@czos9239]

When Yoko Ono first went out on her ill-fated tour, she actually sold eight tickets in a colosseum here meant for tens of thousands. It is said a number of that nameless would-be audience still roams the earth. I doubt even Gandalf could wrap his head around that one.

[@jamiestewart48]

@@WreckingWood Eru Illuvitar bless the sound tech who cut off her mic! Chucks Face when she does that shit is GLORIOUS, and I've seen him fart in a hooker's face!

[@HagalSkrymir999]

The nameless things could have more than one origin as well i think. They could have come into existence during the first music of the Ainur. But i guess there could also be monstrous creatures and creations of Morgoth down there. From his time in Utumno. It was said Utumno was extremely big and incredibly deep beneath the earth, stretching far and wide. Its possible that among the nameless things deep inside the earth there are also other Maiar. Morgoth also had a lot of powerful servants before Sauron, who was still Mairon serving Aule, even joined him. Sauron was called the Second in Command of Morgoth. But we still don't know much about all the servants Morgoth had under his command in Utumno in the times of the Lambs. I think its also said somewhere that these creatures and things even gnaw so deep that they reached the foundations of Arda. So possibly the deeper you go, the more monstrous and powerful these nameless, unspecified beings could become. There might have been a reason why Balrog, Durins Bane, didn't go much deeper than the deepest tunnels the Dwarves of Khazad Dum had created. Gandalf stated that these nameless things lurked in tunnels far beneath those of the Dwarves. Places, where the Balrog might have been even safer from the Valar, because safety from them was his aim and goal. Why didn't he go even deeper? And when you look at beings like Ungoliant.. she was defeated by a bunch of Balrogs under the leadership of Gothmog himself. But against a single Balrog that outcome might have been quite different. So who know what beings might have existed even far deeper, beings even Durins Bane didn't want to encounter alone.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Happy Halloween guys! I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Nameless Things especially since they're one of the most enigmatic and interesting creatures in Arda. As always, subtitles are available and feedback is welcome! I also want to mention that there are a few difference between this video and some other topics I've covered in the past (such as the Watcher in the Water) and this is because since then my thoughts and theories have changed thanks to more in-depth research :) So these older videos might be a bit outdated!

[@crowleyokpebholo3464]

Happy Halloween

[@crowleyokpebholo3464]

This was very nice I LOVE your cool videos

[@MisterDoomHimself]

Happy halloween! And that you for another amazing video!!

[@ldx8492]

You can modify or link to this video! I believe it would show progress and attract/interest more people

[@carcerharlson9767]

I really dig the idea of the Nameless Things as being some dark byproduct of the conflicting tunes of Eru & Morgoth's songs, though the second theory would be closer to the whole Lovecraft theme of the unknown.

[@andrewpaige1194]

U didn’t even mention the fact that Peter Jackson originally had multiple watchers(in the water) in the water below, scurrying out of the way as gandolf and the balrog were falling towards it. Going on THAT, it would mean the watcher is definitely one of the nameless things, as it showed it’s species was there among the nameless things. I don’t know if he was just speculating, or if he has reason to believe or know they would be there. Perhaps during interviews with Tolkien’s son, it was mentioned, or perhaps he’s seen material that nobody else has, from the Tolkien library, or something

[@facundogiuli571]

Is there material from the Tolkien Library who hasn't been revealed to anyone? Surprising, I get even more surprised everytime

[@MrFlutterbitch]

@@facundogiuli571 I wouldn't be surprised if the Tolkien family was holding on to some tidbits. The Vatican's vaults aren't accessible to most people, and they supposedly contain important relics for the Christian religion. Stands to reason (in my mind, anyway) that the owners of a profitable IP would keep some things to themselves until necessary.

[@Your-Least-Favorite-Stranger]

i think a legitimate species would invalidate it being a nameless thing; to be nameless is to be unique, singular, something you could see once in your lifetime then never again anything quite like it. if more than one exists then its a species, and s species is hardly nameless

[@Aplesedjr]

@@Your-Least-Favorite-Stranger they would just collectively be nameless. Each individual is a nameless thing, and as a whole they are the nameless ones.

[@Deadflower20xx]

Jackson never interviewed Tolkien's son, in fact Tolkien's son denied Jackson on multiple occasions and has gone on to say he doesn't like the movies. So in any case, we can't use material from Jackson as something to add extra lore to Tolkien's world.

[@maranathasos3381]

“Nameless,” i believe, refers to their random chaotic status. There is a magic or lore that relates to naming or being named. God had Adam name all the creatures and in exorcism it is important to find the name of the demon in order to cast him out. In many cultures your name changes as you progress, mature or pass through extreme life changing events. So having names is a way to tell your story or define your nature or place, establishing order, etc. For a creature to be nameless adds to the mystery of it and the fear it produces.

[@themerryharridan8409]

Illuvitar may have indeed created them. For what purpose they began, only he knows. Remember that there is an explanation that would take these ancient creatures out of the positive and negative. They could be gardeners of the world, rock gardeners. Lava gardeners. Volcano gardeners. The watcher was a creature like Ungoliant.

[@MagusMarquillin]

If your right then many Dwarves would worship them if they knew. Maybe Mithril is their hardend slime trail.

[@NerdoftheRings]

Love it! Great topic for Halloween, my friend!

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks man! Happy Halloween my friend! :)

[@lorismartinoperfetto6908]

Geekzone and the Nerd of the Rings, what do you want more?

[@mikrogamis721]

I think both. Creatures created both from the Void, and from the Music. "Void stuff" given form by the Music, but "incomplete." Ungoliant, is one of them, but more "formed" than the Nameless Things. As is the Watcher, but less "formed". And no, Morgoth couldn't control them, because their "evil" was beyond his "understanding." Creatures whose mindset was ancient and alien to all things save themselves.

[@morpheussandman3984]

All evil has Morgoth as source.

[@MrChickennugget360]

i like the Idea of Ungoliant being "party formed" that would explain her hunger.

[@ThePipojp]

What's up with people trying to push some random underground creatures as beyond Morgoth? For Eru's sake guys, Tolkien isn't Lovecraft, there is nothing beyond Eru and Melkor in his creation, they are biblical God and Devil representation in his world.

[@warrioroflight6872]

Perhaps the Fellowship was at times being quietly scrutinized and observed by those old and foul things slinking through the long, dark abyss of Moria...

[@midgetydeath]

Perhaps even judged.

[@BlueGhostofSeaside]

"The watcher had at least 20 tentacles" *Frustrated flashbacks to trying to beat the Watcher in LOTRO and its like ten millions tentacles healing it again*

[@MountainFisher]

Your hypothesis seems the more likely story of the "Nameless" creatures. In Gandalf's tale of his battle with the Balrog he mentioned that he needed to follow the Balrog as he said "my enemy was my only hope." Thus by clutching at the Balrog he was able to find his way out. The Balrog had been down there for thousands of years and had explored the paths created by the "nameless things". The creature in the Lake was done well I think, being a squid like monster. The fact that the nameless things hated Melkor also meant they couldn't be used by Sauron like a dragon could so I doubt the flying Fell Beasts were part of these Nameless Things. Sauron found the flying beasts and fed them with "Fell Meats" like horses or Mumakil or something worse than Mumakil, or as Sam called them Oliphaunts. I don't think the Nameless Things could be tamed as they were full of hatred to all things. The Watcher Of The Water as Gandalf said had most likely been driven into the lake and served no one but itself.

[@whitealliance9540]

Learn to spill chaos into the music of creation kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGjVm3h7oJykb68

[@3.142-x3b]

A spin-off where Gandalf and the Balrog become call a temporary truce just to survive.

[@scockery]

@@3.142-x3b Then it becomes a buddy comedy.

[@nateacosta1939]

They're always annoying to fight when you play lotro lmao

[@GeekZoneMT]

Hah, I have so many bad memories of getting piled up on by them 😂

[@BlueGhostofSeaside]

Stupid World Eaters...

[@nateacosta1939]

@@BlueGhostofSeaside DN raid flashbacks

[@AlbertTurek]

@@GeekZoneMT are you still playing LotRO these days? I've just returned to it after 8 years of no playing.

[@Kholaslittlespot1]

@@AlbertTurek man, maybe I should try it after all this time

[@sayagarapan1686]

I see no reason anomalies of Melkor's discord can't exist simultaneously with anomalies of other origins such as Ungoliant and Bombadil which appear to many as spontaneous personifications of darkness and nature, embodying their raw essence in a person. In fact I feel one supports the other, pointing towards the idea that life can exist beyond deliberate intent and design, although I also believe that even such entities must find their permission or consent to exist from Iluvatar. Thus Iluvatar will not have made the evil but chose to use it to further enhance the design and bring ultimate glory from the existence even of bad things. Its hard to explain that to someone a nameless thing may have just eaten, but they'll find enlightenment ere the end.

[@morpheussandman3984]

Exactly, my thoughts too.

[@MrChickennugget360]

i think that Arda's "original" inhabitants created directly from the music and are by nature neutral since they were simply created and never had to take "sides" the way that the Spirits created by Eru were. Tom was created from the music- that is all he knows- he knows nothing of kings or law or fate, only that he was there at the start. The nameless things are probably similar.

[@dubbeking]

I think you and I had the exact same thoughts on this. Tolkien had a very good grasp of how to create intrigue and make his world feel truly massive, and understood that sometimes the most profound concept was the one we knew the least about. I truly want to know more about these things, but that'd most definitely take away the magic.

[@VarjoFilosofi]

Music of the Ainur was an awesome way to describe the creation of the universe. Tolkien absolutely nailed that part of his Mythology. It perfectly portraits Iluvitar as orchestrater and minor gods as musicians. This including Melkor, who tried to play his own solo, but always Iluvitar countered that by leading other Ainur, so the song stayed harmonious no matter what Melkor tried. Melkor kind of was like the concertmaster, who did his everything to ruin the song, but Iluvitar being so good at conducting made even that a part of his grand symphony of creation. If I remember correctly Iluvitar said that no matter what Melkor did, he was always just working towards Iluvitar's grand plan anyway as one of his pieces. Let's be honest... Without Melkor Tolkien's mythology would have been stagnant and boring. It was always Melkor, which caused things to happen in Valinor and Middle-Earth. Forces of chaos are always needed to counter pure order. This compliment is probably a little over the top, but I would say it easily triumphs most of the creation myths, if not all of them.

[@dremora10]

Didn't expect to hear the Dark Elves of Naggaroth theme playing from Warhammer LOL - Had to check if my game was open

[@GeekZoneMT]

The Druchii will have their revenge!

[@trigz8626]

Bruh I smash Druchii everyday with my Saurus army Lizardmens masterrace 😂👌

[@pyrrhusofepirus8491]

No-no lizard-beast, Skaven superior, far superior and smarter-bright then dying lizard-things!

[@ignacio4159]

@@GeekZoneMT Ulthuan shall never fall!

[@mwinton1986]

Wonder what became of the watcher in the fourth age? When the dwarfs finally took back Moria would they have had to fight the watcher to make safe the lands?

[@GeekZoneMT]

I think the water level would have slowly gone down and I imagine the watcher would have returned to its home beneath the mountains :)

[@coolbrotherf127]

They seemed to thrive off the darkness and corruption created by Sauron as they were productions of those two attributes. After Sauron was defeated they most likely dug darker and deeper into the ground.

[@MiguelSanchezDelVillar]

2 options, they could have killed the Watcher when they reconquered Moria to clean the way to the west or he simply leaved when he sensed all the shit that was coming, but surely he didnt stay there

[@impendingdoom7920]

I love mysterious and sinister topics like this. Since reading the Silmarilion it can seem like everything is explained and put neatly in order, but it's nice to be reminded of the unknowns, without them, the world would loose some of its magic.

[@fantasywind3923]

There are always hints in Tolkien writings of things unknown and unnamed, of creatures that defy the usual classifications, there are things beyond the known and counted living things :), more than Orcs, Trolls, Wargs, werewolves, bat-like vampires, dragons, demonic giant spiders Ungoliant, Tom Bombadil and Goldberry :), there are Stone Giants in The Hobbit, and speaking of, even in The Hobbit there are hints of mysterious things in the dark: "He could not swim; and he thought, too, of nasty slimy things, with big bulging blind eyes, wriggling in the water. There are strange things living in the pools and lakes in the hearts of mountains: fish whose fathers swam in, goodness only knows how many years ago, and never swam out again, while their eyes grew bigger and bigger and bigger from trying to see in the blackness; also there are other things more slimy than fish. Even in the tunnels and caves the goblins have made for themselves there are other things living unbeknown to them that have sneaked in from outside to lie up in the dark. Some of these caves, too, go back in their beginnings to ages before the goblins, who only widened them and joined them up with passages, and the original owners are still there in odd corners, slinking and nosing about." In the Silmarillion we hear a lot about the mysterious monsters bred by Morgoth that roamed the world long before the first Orcs were made :). "Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew naught of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred. Green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood. Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, and they sought for his hiding place." ... "While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the seas the great weeds, and on earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong. To those lands and forests the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Oromë; and Yavanna would walk there in the shadows, grieving because the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was stayed. And she set a sleep upon many things that had arisen in the Spring, so that they should not age, but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be. But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days. And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread now ever southward over Middle-earth." There are always unknowns and enigmas in Tolkien's world :).

[@Glorfindel_117]

I adore how Tolkien specifically wrote stuff for the purpose of not having an answer. Like the Namless Things, Tom Bombadil, the fate of the Ents and the Entwives, or what happens to Men after they die.

[@fantasywind3923]

@@Glorfindel_117 ""And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)." Plus eternal mysteries of life and secrets of the higher nature :).

[@Jenn-lq9yu]

I personally believe that the Nameless Things definitely stem from the Void around Arda... it makes a lot of sense to me given how alien and strange they are. Lord of the Rings Online has some great interpretations of the creatures.

[@nfragala]

"Age" as in older or younger than a Maiar is not exactly as linear as you think, for time as we recon it began once the sun and moon were set on their paths by the three mysterious old men. Therefore, the creatures of middle earth such as the Nameless Things or Ungwelient for example, may have been present on the earth before Melkor, but are in fact not actually older as the Ainu were brought into being for the pleasure of Illuvatar and to add to his music, which eventually created the middle earth. The transition from cosmic being (Ainu) to earthly resident (Maiar) doesn't change the fact that the Maiar existed in some form (with their own predispositions) well before anything on the middle earth ever existed. However, if you were to consider the change from cosmic being into earthly resident as the beginning of time for the Valar, a birth as you will, then the nameless things/Unwelient are in fact older since they were "born" out of the cosmic melodies of the Ainur. The conceptual framework for the cosmology relies heavily on the difference between the eternal, the middle, and the darkness. The eternal is Iluvatar and the anti-matter beyond the cosmos. The middle is the tangible world including all the planets, matter, and stars etcetera. The darkness or wall of night is the nether realm. Being eternal, the Ainu had no age but were older than all of middle earth. But the transition from Ainu to Maiar gave them a tangible age in relation to the middle earth. Therefore, they are both older and younger than the nameless things.

[@frenchsterr]

Interesting point. 👌🏽

[@Theodre_Verany]

What a fascinating video. I have always wondered about the nameless things and how they came to be. Tolkien sometimes does not give us all the answers and hence it makes them all the more mysterious. Well done as always, this channel is the best.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks man! Yeah the fact we never get a complete answer keeps the mystery alive and makes it much more prominent since there would be so much speculation around it. It will always remain unresolved and therefore an 'active' mystery :)

[@RichterBelmont2235]

Imagine the omitted scene of Gandalf and Balrog after they fell into the deepest lake in Moria. "Nemesis, we shall continue our fight... after we get back to our turf" Then they both watch each other's back as they climb the Endless Stairs together, with countless cthonian monsters hissing and slithering in the darkness behind them...

[@blaisevillaume2225]

Gandalf says he chased that little bitch right up to the tippy top. No truce there.

[@BaldyAngry]

@@blaisevillaume2225 yes he did chase him to the endless stairs to Durin's tower ,but the question is what made a balrog run , was there something he feared in the deep?

[@timothyrudd5284]

@@BaldyAngry or perhaps it ran because that water was pretty cold apparently. 🥶

[@ThePipojp]

@@BaldyAngry Gandalf said that they fought a bit and he kept throwing the Balrog away whenever he got close and only after a while fighting like this he fled. The Balrog was likely running away from Gandalf after realising that his way of fighting wasn't working, not those creatures. Gandalf also mentioned that the Balrog knew those tunnels very well, so he spent enough time there without those creatures daring to bother him.

[@anthonylamonica8301]

@@ThePipojp I mean, hey! It's not like _all_ cosmic horrors are powerful, right?

[@mussardlucien6355]

I never gave too much thought to the 'Nameless Things', but now that I have seen your video I think they are fascinating :) So thank you very much for this video @GeekZone :) But just my 2 cents : I think there is Good, Evil, and 'Nameless Things' that are 'Chaotic' by nature... Things whose shape or purpose can't be named, as no description or words exist to describe them. I think 'Chaotic' would be fitting to qualify such 'Things', born from the discord between Melkor and the rest of the Ainur's theme... Although in the book those 'Things' are still considered 'Evil' and not 'Chaotic' for some reason... I guess the reason for this 'Evil' classification is... well... none of those 'Nameless Things' were intended/wanted by the Ainur, so they were rejected and hidden in the dark as there is no place in the world for them. As those 'Things' were rejected, they hated all the Ainur, including Melkor. Hence they were classified as 'Evil'.

[@GeekZoneMT]

You're welcome man :) yeah I mainly refer to them as evil because of the quote about the discord of Morgoth :)

[@morpheussandman3984]

The nameless things are older than Sauron, so they predate the Ainur. Not all has to be work of Eru and the Ainur. Tom Bombadil is named fatherless.

[@morpheussandman3984]

In fact, not all need to be created to Begin. Who created Iluvatar? who created Ungoliant?

[@joelnielsen4836]

@@morpheussandman3984 Whom, or maybe....WHAT??

[@alexandresobreiramartins9461]

Great Music: - Ainu: make Baroque Bach-like music - Melkor: tries to be Wagnerian, but ends up going all Death Metal.

[@sirfistaslit]

I see melkor as a blackened death metal guy, Dissection meets Sulphur Aeon with touches of immolation Melodic yet dark and grimey.

[@vitoriturriaga3468]

It speaks volumes to me that the balrog was scared of them.

[@destinytroll1374]

There's no reason to believe that, if anything they fled before him from all accounts. He'd been in these halls before and knew how to get in and out, that's why Gandalf followed him.

[@antondavidovic3996]

Its more correct to state that Gandalf was scared off them, Gandalf mentioned that the Balrog was his only "hope" in that place. That means that these beings filled him with so much despair that he likely saw the Balrog as a guide to his only way out, or that the Balrog was so much less terrifying compared to them that he was the closest thing to something "good"(imagine that) in that place. Its interesting though how they continued to fight in the lair of the nameless things, their priorities were on one another so I wouldn't say that the nameless things were more powerful than them. As it was already mentioned, the Balrog knew those tunnels well, so the nameless things either stayed clear of the Balrog or they had an uneasy agreement with it. Its also interesting to note that Ungoliant, a being born of darkness, was routed when attacked by 7 Balrogs. Their fiery whips tore through her dark webs. If the nameless things are similar to Ungoliant, being creatures of darkness, it would make sense for them to fear the Balrog's flame. P.S. I believe that Ungoliant was one of the evil things that was born from the discord caused by Melkor.

[@vitoriturriaga3468]

@@antondavidovic3996 either way it still says something that Gandalf was so affected by them, that a Balrog of all things was his "hope". Btw I think the same thing about Ungoliant. I thought it was always disappointing that Tolkien never expanded on beings like Ungoliant and the Nameless Things. They would have made good material for adding some horror aspects to his universe.

[@ahmedst5735]

@@vitoriturriaga3468 now as Gandalf the white nameless beings where scared of him then

[@tefnenes3426]

These stories are so epic and untold interesting great video! :)

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks man! I'm glad you enjoyed it :)

[@jackercooper4078]

I like the concept that they were created over ilúvatar and morgoth quarrel

[@RosieJonesRules]

I always thought the Watcher was one of them too. I swear there's a bit where they muse it might have been driven or pushed out of the depths to the lake.

[@keelobrown4991]

This is VERY lovecraftian! Just goes to show how much depth Tolkeins worldbuilding has!

[@joemerino3243]

I didn't expect anything but unfounded speculations here, but this is actually a startlingly well-researched and complete explanation.

[@virginiavanni8061]

Oh my God this is one of your best videos! The slimy things remind me of the fish monsters from Lovecraft's 'the shadow over Innsmouth'

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks 😁😁 It was one of my favourite ones to create :)

[@michaelsavage7884]

I think they are Morgoths creations. But the unknown of him in his music through Arda. Remember Morgoth was the most powerful of the Valar and helped in the destruction of it. But they are like his children that rejected him. I have read the Silimarilion. But that is my guess.

[@justrusty]

My first thought at he beginning of this video was that the watcher was one of the creatures. Great minds think alike.

[@GeekZoneMT]

It seems so ;)

[@shindari]

The movie "The Fellowship of the Ring" actually mentions these creatures, in passing. Gandalf says it, after the Fellowship is trapped inside of Moria: "Best stay on your guard. There are older... and more foul things, than Orcs... in the DEEP places of the world." This is an actual line from the film! At the time I first heard it, I thought that it was a subtle spoiler warning for the Balrog of Morgoth. But now I see that it was referring to the "Nameless Things," which we never actually see in the movie, but were definitely present beneath Moria. And a thing that the "Watcher in the Water" may have almost certainly been!

[@avrace2708]

I think he said about Balrog too, but not only about him

[@GuyChooo]

Goblins, Trolls, Balrog, and Nameless things, I cant think of more nightmarish creatures lurking on Moria.

[@edwatkins6628]

This is one of the most thorough, satisfying and eye-opening videos I have ever seen about Middle-Earth. Thanks a bunch.

[@PitboyHarmony1]

Ahhh ... that quote is a bit of a revelation. Thinking along the same lines, what if Tom Bombadil was also a direct creation of the music of the Ainur, possibly as another and different result of the discordance between the music of the Valar, with the music of Melkor. ** Always remember that musically, even in perceived discordance, there is also resonance, there has to be, they are not mutually exclusive.** If Discordance can hate, resonance can love, and more importantly here, vise versa. More generally; What if somehow, Tom was created by an occurrence in the music? We already know that Tom existed in the void of Arda before the creation of Middle Earth. How else could he be created, and have the abilities and knowledge he does, without being directly of the music? Just as the foul creatures talked about in this video were not governable or directed by the visions of Illuvitar, therefore not usable by forces of evil, it seams neither is Tom ... he takes no sides, he seems aimless, without any eventual goal, and the side of good cant persuade him. Think about it ... there may be something to this.

[@joelnielsen4836]

This is one of the best Tom Bombadil theories I've heard so far. I've never really thought of Ungoliant as evil per say, not like Melkor. Other than her own selfish desires, she seems indifferent to everything else that's happening in middle earth, similarly to Bombadil. It's a nice way to explain them both. (I'm sure Ungoliant would also have had a lot to say, if Gandalf had instead spoken to her before leaving middle earth, instead of Bombadil)

[@ldx8492]

Excellent video as always. Love the explanation and I think it follows from the platonic Theory of Forms, in which it is postulated that everything in existence has its own idea, the so called "perfect originator". It is akin of a concept of perfection, describing all things, but that is beyond reality, such as the thought of a "perfect cup" in your mind in the act of you drawing (giving existence) to such cup or any of its representations. In essence, the Ainur "sang" or "gave thought" or "gave the ideas" of all creation together in the music, and it was only Eru that condensed such ideas into Eä ("be", as translated, or gave existence). This process can stil be applied to the Ainur themselves. The Theory of Forms by Plato, in my humble opinion, perfectly describes the music, together with its offspring comprising the Nameless Creatures (such as The Watcher in the Water)

[@GeekZoneMT]

Thanks Andrea! I never actually made the comparison with Plato's theory of forms, though now that you mentioned it, I really like it!

[@ldx8492]

@@GeekZoneMT You're most welcome! I'm glad you like the idea, I believe that it is the most "connecting" theory that puts the Legendarium in an actual philosophical context

[@nunyabizzy]

Tolkien, as a scholar of medieval literature, would have been quite familiar with platonism as an influence on medieval writers.

[@ldx8492]

@@nunyabizzy Neat!

[@DeadlyDanDaMan]

I think the Watcher, and the "Nameless Things" are no different than Ungoliant. They weren't created by Morgoth, at least not directly. I think they were brought into life by the discord of his melody by Iluvatar, just like how Tom Bombadil was created (except he was created by other melodies, not Melkors). They were the first to exist on Arda. Nobody knows exactly how many creatures were created at the beginning by Iluvatar.

[@harpseal9234]

Christ This is news to me I always remember Him saying "There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world" You get an understanding of this in the mines of moria section of the trilogy . I'm getting flash backs to the intro to the twin towers movie *(Watch the extended editionsof the movies if you havent guys)* To think Gandalf fell all the way down THERE ! Every time i think I know most of middle earth theres more D: And this be a scary pill 💊 to swallow It has honestly over time made me view the real world differently too

[@ChrisVillagomez]

I love that Tolkien and Lovecraft, despite not knowing each other and Tolkien even disliking the Fall of Sarnath, both wrote about unimaginably horrific beings older than gods that have no names and are buried deep beneath the Earth. There's even the idea that Aman (Arda, not Aman) doesn't mean Earth, but the Solar System itself. This is just so cool cause it would mean that Morgoth and the other Valar had fortresses and strongholds in space like actual eldritch deities

[@Brock-Lesnar-WWE]

I heard when the balrog and gandalf went deep in to moria the balrog fled in fear of the creatures in the deep or something like that

[@GeekZoneMT]

He fled from Gandalf since he was losing their duel :) Gandalf then chased him to the peak of Durin's tower

[@NetherCrafterSMC]

Every mythos needs a lovecraft horror monster lol

[@Kholaslittlespot1]

Tolkien was well aware ;)

[@mrtimo3822]

I'll tell you the truth about the nameless creatures. Since Tolkien was a big believer in Christianity. There's a passage in Job that talks about how God, a loving and benevolent force, creating the Behemoth and Leviathan. Well it's uncertain what those creatures are. Most scholars believe they were talking about dinosaurs that lived in the water and on land. Terrifying monsters, yet created by God. Look at verse 41 of Job. I believe this explains how Eru could create such fierce beings that seem to have no allegiance.

[@ieatmice751]

There is no way the people who wrote the bible would know what dinosaurs were And there weren’t really any dinosaurs living in the ocean

[@noahhoan]

@@ieatmice751 why not?

[@zackmcdaniels7457]

@@ieatmice751 what exactly do you think job was referencing when he spoke about behemoths with tails the size of cedar trees?

[@Revanbzn]

Most scholars are wrong then. Leviathan is just an African alligator, those thing can get very big. Behemoth is either just an elephant or rhino or just an elaborate di*k joke. They mentioned something that can be translated either moves like a tree or stiffened like a tree, then they mention two stones.

[@johannchin6431]

@@Revanbzn have you seen the tail of an elephant or a hippo? Neither of them have tails that are even close to that of a cedar tree.

[@edom7]

Knowing that HP Lovecraft wrote during the 20s and 30s, methinks that Tolkien might have taken inspiration from his works for this.

[@userequaltoNull]

Lovecraft wasn't really well known until some time later. It's possible, though much less likely than a modern writer being inspired by lovecraft.

[@CharterForGaming]

Tolkien mostly got if from the war. The balrog represents the fire that looked like a monster in war.

[@augustokonrad3572]

Probably not. Lovecraft was an unknown, who published his works in the United States for a "low brown" pulp magazines, in contrast, Tolkien was mostly inspired by mythological epics such as Beowulf or the Kalevala.

[@jasonfenton8250]

@@augustokonrad3572 Plus Tolkien supposedly looked down on modern literature. Doubt he would stoop to pulpy speculative fiction mags.

[@yamatonoryuujin4871]

Doubt this Lovecraft himself took most of his inspirations from some kind of Mesopotamian drawings of ancient demons and cosmic gods. It’s even written in his Biography that his mother took him to a shop that sold Middle eastern arts, relics, or literature and he saw the drawings there and traumatized him; which based on his history inspired his works growing up.

[@dangerouss4591]

Absolute brilliant observations. Had to watch and listen thrice to catch all the possibilities in detail. You sir, make Professor Tolkien proud.

[@Im-Not-a-Dog]

I believe that the Watcher and Ungoliant were both Nameless Things. Given that they are creatures born of the Discord, I doubt that they would all have the same appearance, resulting in each having its own terrifying appearance.

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah I always pictured the Nameless Things having forms and that each one of them was unique. Though that's just my imagination 😁

[@JacobSmith-rh2sr]

@@GeekZoneMT when I finished the video I was literally thinking the same exact thing

[@aramkaizer7903]

@@GeekZoneMT If you've ever seen or read Berserk. I'm imagining the demons from there. Those are really nasty and chaotic.

[@Frahamen]

How are they nameless thingy if they have names?

[@joshuafischer684]

@@Frahamen Consider that they might be given descriptive names like "The Watcher in the Water" or, for sentient creatures, name themselves as Ungoliant did, but not have a proper name for what they are.

[@Aethgeir]

Interesting. I've always drawn a connection between the Watcher in the Water with something from the deepest depths of Moria. I suspect Tolkien just added that line for dramatic effect rather then any conscious connection to an obscure line from the Music of the Ainur. Still, it's as good an explanation as any.

[@stannisbaratheon1214]

I wonder if a ordinary man or elf or dwarf fell to were gandalf fell would they go mad of fear just not knowing what's in the dark water your in. that brings a chill to my spine

[@GeekZoneMT]

Yeah I'd imagine so, it would be very appropriate for eldritch beings :)

[@Delgen1951]

No not know or unseeing of it may be a defense to it.

[@thetreeofwoe2304]

Probably the coolest, most interesting LotR video I have seen on youtube. Great job, brother!

[@zikriflanery7030]

They're basically the circus you can find down there from digging to deep in dwarf fortress

[@torbjornlekberg7756]

This is one of the things I like the most with Tolkiens works. He have this unique way of creating imagination-triggering mystery, creating desire in the mind to know more.

[@stevek4070]

I really like this idea for the watcher because the creature was such a bizarre entry into the whole storyline. If only there was a supplimental that talked more about these creatures. What did the watcher do with all it's time? What did these evil things do with their existence other than carving into the caves?

[@rbjensen530]

Interesting thing to think about with the watcher as well, it crushing the gates of Moria means the fellowship had no means of escaping the Balrog, which ended in the death of Gandalf. After Gandalf's death, Eru Ilúvatar intervenes the only significant time in Arda's history, insinuating his death was against his wish, meaning the Watcher's (or alternately, Durin's Bane's) actions might have been the only occurance to ever stray from his design

[@ethanhunt5243]

Maybe it was his plan to replace sarumon

[@rbjensen530]

@@ethanhunt5243 This made me imagine an eldritch octopus ruling Isengard from Orthanc lol (Know you meant the Balrog tho)

[@ethanhunt5243]

@@rbjensen530 no I meant what if his plan was to have the balrog kill Gandalf so he could reincarnat him as the new White wizard

[@rbjensen530]

@@ethanhunt5243 Oh, yeah, that makes sense. I think I remember something about souls not being possible to alter in the physical realm, so the restrictions the wizards have could only be lifted either in the realm of Valinor or the halls of Mandos. Nevertheless, seems like the only real possible fault in Eru's plan for Arda.

[@ethanhunt5243]

@@rbjensen530 yeah possibly, although if God can be tricked or foiled, is he really God?

[@jakemertz2660]

This is one of the coolest lotr lore videos I’ve seen. What an awesome subject, and such great art and discussion :)

[@Joe_-tf8is]

What makes Tolkien so great is not only is unmatched depth of his world but the realistic and amazing mysteries he added, admitting in past interviews that he himself (!) actually did not know. Wow

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

The watcher in the movie never bothered me since I always imagined an kraken/octopus like creature. I can see how it would be disappointing if one imagined an eldritch horror though.

[@zengara11]

holy sht, that accent is literally the best story telling ever.

[@bildcj]

Morgoth experimented with many creatures and when Morgoth fell, all the creatures he created hid.

[@soulreaver1983]

Awesome video dude!😈

[@ronocthebarbarian3025]

Great video bro. I love how you delve so deep into the lore exposing parts of LOTR that I’ve never even thought about. Great work man. I very much enjoy watching your videos.

[@garbojaxmcbruce9626]

Weird theory: The Ainur, being not Eru, were unable to sing a song free of Godelian problems of incompleteness and inconsistency, and the nameless things gnawing at the foundations of the world (!) are these imperfections in the song itself. Thus they weren't created per-say, they simply are as a result of the gaps in the Ainur's songs, the things that are not there, hence: nameless. Also why Men take place in the second music and why they're such an enigma to the Elves and the Valar, Men are what slays the nameless things in the second music, thereby making it more perfect and more complete than before. This could be why they change things and why they die; their nature is to fill the gaps of non-existence/incompleteness/inconsistency in the music, so they must create; and they die because their home is not Arda but in that world which is the music which fills the necessary imperfections in the Ainur's wonderful - though flawed - attempt at music. I know this isn't what Tolkien originally thought but it ties things up unexpectedly well I think. Any thoughts?

[@garbojaxmcbruce9626]

Also sorry if that's hard to follow, it was just a first-draft word-vomit of the idea and as Hemingway once said "The first draft of anything is..."

[@garbojaxmcbruce9626]

Also also there is a subtle difference between this and them being from the discord of Melkor, in this they would exist whether or not he sowed discord and his discord would be relegated to the evil of the world caused by it's inhabitants.

[@ryuk5673]

Nerd

[@ilikenougat8892]

@@ryuk5673 You say that like you're not watching a Lord Of The Rings video

[@ryuk5673]

@@ilikenougat8892 filthy little hobbitses?

[@Wolfogre]

I lean heavily towards them being manifestations from the void. Being from outside even Eru's creation, and music, makes them almost impossible to understand and quite terrifying to contemplate.

[@ThePipojp]

That's completely incompatible with Tolkien's mythology. As a very christian author, he wouldn't make anything that's outside Eru's creation

[@Wolfogre]

@@ThePipojp That is a good point.

[@seanspartan2023]

I like your theory that the Nameless Things were created from the original music that birthed the world, or rather from the discord created by Melkor

[@CharlesHuse]

The balrog had a cold, and it was affecting his hearing. He was just on his way to the bathroom when he thought Gandalf said "You shall not piss!!"

[@tonyshannon8429]

Great video, man. Thank you very much. I had never considered that there would be creations that spring from the dissonance of the music, but it makes so much sense.

[@RockingSanta]

Imagine an emersive game, like Darkest Dungeon (but less arcade) set in Tolkiens universe exploring the depth of these caves... That would be something to explore...

[@jtowensbyiii6018]

lotro already fully maps out most of Moria in expansive detail and includes a part of the foundations of stone where these creatures are, and were even the biggest raid at the time that lasted 2 full expansions as endgame content

[@stevenv2190]

@@jtowensbyiii6018 Yes. I pretty much hate Moria in LOTRO, but it levels up quick. Moria is practically a whole game in itself - very massive.

[@onlyMetalisMusic]

Made by the guys who made Subnautica XD

[@battlechris8463]

"The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep."

[@joseantonioprimoderivera9331]

Do you think Big Foot may be one of these strange and ancient creatures?

[@YourOldUncleNoongah]

Awesome! Imagine if and WHEN middle earth moves into its 21st century like us here on earth with the level of knowledge and tech we have and then explorers enter those depths and discover those creatures, much like man when landing on the moon or finally arriving at the absolute BOTTOM of the ocean.

[@carloluatti8505]

I was thinking the same thing.

[@brianward8748]

Excellent excellent excellent video!! I’ve been looking for info on these “nameless things” I kept hearing about! Great job man!!

[@chrisanderson6936]

"abyss was never measured" picture of a bridge with support pillars... >: /