Why You Hate Fighting Zoners

[@GekkoSquirrel]

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[@samuelevans738]

can we get a "why you love playing" series now? probably going to be recieved well.

[@huntertw]

Oof, bad time to be getting a War Thunder sponsor, lmao

[@morzathoth919]

@@huntertw Did the forums leak classified military documents again?

[@IdentifiantE.S]

@@huntertwYes 😶

[@uber_duck]

The most important thing to remember when playing against zoners is that taking space against them IS a punish, even if you don't actually hit them. If you're getting zoned, you're still playing the game and you're still making decisions and interacting with your opponent. Not being able to run your offense and land combos doesn't mean you aren't playing, it just means you need to change what the idea of playing vs. not playing the game means to you.

[@thechugg4372]

Yeah that's what they WANT you to think until you look at your health bar and realize you lost 50% of your health to chip damage aaaand there's only 5 seconds on the clock good luck!

[@badatmathhh]

@@thechugg4372 easy comeback for people like me tbh

[@mickeybat5816]

​@@thechugg4372 I think what OG is saying that you don't need to just sit there and block, and if you do block, you're actually doing well even if you aren't putting damage on the board. Unless the zoner is from an NRS title, seriously them mfs are always busted, a zoner really really don't want you to touch them, every step closer is a win because once you're in they have to worry about getting absolutely nuked because they don't have many escape options up close.

[@uber_duck]

​@@mickeybat5816 Yep. Risk/reward skews more and more in your favor the closer you get to them, and it becomes harder and eventually impossible for the zoner to cover every approach option on reaction as you close in.

[@aerostrafe1075]

@@mickeybat5816 NRS zoners are disgusting when it comes to balance. Those devs looked at every weakness a zoner could have like mix up, defense, get off me tools, and etc then thought it wasn't fair so they gave them all of that ontop of their incredibly strong zoning tools just because.

[@x3fm690]

Fair? What do I care about fair I'm trying not to get my ass beat now hand me a rock

[@velocityraptor2890]

you want a rock sling to go with that too?

[@yurki1682]

I do say it's pretty fair to run away and throw a rock when the guy you have to fight is a mix between Usain Bolt and Mike Tyson.

[@G1antTeddyBear]

As strictly an observer. My favorite archetype matchup to watch is Zoners vs Grapplers. It's a battle of perfection. If the grappler approaches perfectly he can get to an extremely advantages position. If the Zoner plays perfectly the grappler never gets in. They are my 2 favorite archetypes. Least fav is rushdown >_>

[@javianbrown8627]

I see what you mean... That matchup is typically in the zoners favour though as rushdown has an easier time getting in and typically have moves that go through/around projectiles. As long as the level is high enough any match can be a match of perfection if you think about it

[@gimmeyourrights8292]

Rush downs are my favorite matches because it's satisfying being able to watch that zoner's plans explode right in front of their eyes.

[@iBleed_RoyLty4368]

The best thing about the two archetypes is that they're pretty much interchangeable and if we think on it a bit, both play the same game. Just at different ranges.

[@thechugg4372]

The best part is the balance between them because if grappler gets in he gets big damage, however if another character that's not a grappler gets in he won't be able to do his highest damage combos so the trade usually ends poorly in their favor.

[@Cadaverous0711]

You make it sound like an even fight but zoners are the counter to grapplers, it's like Pokemon. Rushdown are strong against zoners, zoners are strong against grapplers, and grapplers are strong against rushdown.

[@enderethan229]

Y’know, that starting analogy actually works really well here. To you, the “honorable duelist”, the opponent is being a coward by refusing to “actually fight” you. To the other guy, he’s using what he sees as the most effective tactic available to achieve victory, as was agreed upon at the beginning. Why would I stay within punching range of a guy who refuses to do anything but punch? The Zoner is definitely one of the most controversial archetypes because of how they, more than any other archetype, want to fundamentally alter the game to favor them. You did a good job expressing that and why that can be what makes someone lose their shit.

[@yurki1682]

Specially, "Why would i stay in punching range against a guy that punches and resists damage WAY better than me?" It's like saying you are a coward for not wanting to get into a fistfight against Prime Mike Tyson or smth.

[@zanwrightmfwr756]

As a zoner main, it's not about depleting their hp bar, it's about depleting their patience. If your enemy is frustrated, you know you'll win 90% of the time.

[@gcacas2058]

basically the objective of the zoner is to give his opponent a hard time while playing?

[@HalcyonEX]

I've converted from a rush down to a zoner in MK1 because of Johnny cage fuck that guy

[@rorykincannon1166]

Which is why this is bad design. Its not fun and only people who want to win play zoners. No one plays zoners for fun.

[@MrTheTomahawk]

Zoners need time to sniff glue

[@zanwrightmfwr756]

​@@rorykincannon1166 well that's not really fair, I live on the suffering of grapplers :]

[@TCPolecat]

Huh, I'm literally the opposite. Rushdown are the bane of my existence, and would not be bothered at all if they were Thanos snapped from existence.

[@anthonyfarias5076]

I dont care about the regular unga bunga rushdowns. I care about the legit broken ones that make you guess 24/7.

[@onthedre]

@@anthonyfarias5076 a rushdown that makes you guess is more engaging gameplay than a zoner that makes you live inside of their guessing game. Guile always has the adv. in a Sonic Boom Flash Kick Scenario, compared to Ibuki’s guessing game.

[@dryanaa4474]

Gotta guess, guess, guess

[@yeahboyz9314]

Zoner spotted, dunk him bois

[@jermaineelliott2685]

You hate dealing with frame data.

[@xSnowdrift]

Zoning seems like the easiest thing to do, until you play one yourself against a competent player. I used to absolutely hate zoners, but after trying a couple of them out they are now my go-to archetype whenever I'm looking to get into a new game. I would encourage everyone to at least try out a couple of zoners in your games and see if you can gain either a) knowledge on how to fuck them up, or b) appreciate how hard it can sometimes be.

[@javianbrown8627]

One of the reason they're so hard is you're forced to cover multiple options such as jumps, dashes, the oponents projectiles and if you get a single read wrong that means they get close or slowly force you into the corner. Avoiding the corner as a zoner is one of the hardest things and typically sucks due to their poor defensive options. Rushdown characters also usually have something that goes through/around projectiles (Millia's Mirazh, Gio's Travao etc) .... Unless it's Mortal Combat where zoners can not only mix you but have plus frames on projectiles and gain meter every 8 seconds cuz you get meter for doing nothing in MK11 and on top of all that some of them have a full screen fatal blow so that's a free 30% from 1 button which also pushes you back if you block it and they get it back every 10 seconds untl it hits. TLDR: don't play NRS games if you hate zoners, you will have a bad time

[@xSnowdrift]

@@javianbrown8627 The fact that Deadshot exists and is something multiple people looked at and approved is insane to me.

[@Darkaos_5]

@@javianbrown8627 I can add to what you mentioned that yes zoners can be a very complicated archetype because you have to basically have constant mind games with your opponent from a distance with the threat of them inching closer being you inching towards losing, since most zoners don't have great mobility options to get away... but there's the issue "mostly" means some DO have the way to keep away without much issue, or even mix you up from full screen, or heck in some niche cases they do all of the above while still having good upclose damage and buttons... sorry my hatred for peacock on skullgirls and arakune in blazblue started showing 😑

[@javianbrown8627]

@@xSnowdrift IKR, feels like NRS has an OP zoner quota that they have to fill in each game so top 8 can be like 2 characters

[@LadyViolet1]

Oh I play zoners sometimes too, but they can also be easy *sometimes.* For example I really liked playing Phonon in Uni since she could cover multiple options in neutral pretty easily. On the other hand there's Axl who absolutely does need to think a lot more in neutral, and I didn't like that so I don't play him in Strive. Instead I settled for pretty good mid range and crazy mix from Baiken.

[@Mas-cm6cy]

1:20 Shows Axl as the most hated zoner in guilty gear Happy Chaos: Excuse me what?

[@zerolifez]

Happy chaos is not a zoner though. He's just something broken. His close range pressure is insane with how everything is safe because of gunshot and how he can easily crossup you with the roll. And the most infuriating thing is he can convert any stray hit into a full combo. The game is lying when it said his best range is far away, his best range is anywhere on the screen.

[@yeen.7209]

@@zerolifez well if he's effective in the entire screen, then wouldn't that make it his zone? lololol

[@zerolifez]

​@@yeen.7209 Nope Zoner traditionally only effective in long range, their gameplan is to bully people from long range and they are weak at close range. And as I said Happy Chaos is also strong on close range.

[@macanudo6206]

Hello gekko. Thanks to you, ive buy my first fighting game ever 5 days ago. Im now a glue addicted faust roaming brainlessly through the 7th floor. You've truly changed me, ive lost my job and my house but GOD that was worth it. Thanks a lot.

[@Sir_Bucket]

Ah a fellow Faust enjoyer Remember my guy: if you do the slash scarecrow, you can roman cancel immediatly after launching it to appear on the ennemy and get a free grab. Free snack for doctor :)

[@SSM24_]

I mean, the whole "they force you to play at _their_ pace, not yours" thing applies equally to rushdown characters. It's just that most people tend to enjoy a faster pace rather than a slower pace (hence why rushdown characters are popular in the first place), so it doesn't get as much hate.

[@laffy7204]

I don't hate Zoners, I play Zoners

[@gamerx112]

No better feeling than living rent free maining a zoner. JP my beloved

[@nelomalkevain4129]

Lambda 11 was the 1st ever character I mained in a fighting game and I remeber the character tutorial in CS saying "Lambda's main goal is to FRUSTRATE the opponent with long range projectiles and forcing the opponent to make mistakes" so I say you hit the mark on this one. Also generally zoners are the most hated because projectile spamming is one of the 1st many roadbloacks a beginer has to learn how to deal with when picking up the genere for the 1st time. Also buddy, you forgot to activate astral projection at 5:57

[@its_gxl420babae3]

Grapplers: use their slowness to your advantage Rushdown: keep your distance Zoner: just don't get hit bro...

[@ztorma]

I used to hate zoners, so I tried zoners to figure out how to deal with them. Then, I became a zoner.

[@coffeeluci]

I like Zoners I also hate Zoners

[@gtwarden7292]

Typical zoner take -source: a zoner

[@someaccount5200]

Puppet characters are pretty much designed around making your opponent panic

[@2ndThought_]

0:18 jokes on you, that's *exactly* what I would do; so it's a fair fight by definition.

[@343ishill]

NRS fans: For you, the day Zoners graced your fighting game was the most important day of your life. For me... it was Tuesday.

[@Heruzar]

I'm surprised no one points out the fact that Happy Chaos doesn't fall into either category, because it doesn't fire projectiles, and it doesn't have long buttons either, he just spawns damage in the gun sight.

[@DameDantalion]

I would still say that he qualifies as a zoner, but he plays against something else than positioning: Timing. You need to time your blocks and create a rhythm to be able to get in on Chaos; that or time when he runs low on resources. Your positioning doesn't matter for the gun, but timing does.

[@Scummoner]

I'm ngl the gun acts closer to a puppet than a zoner. The main way gun is being used is to cover whiffs and gaps/extending combos. It's just that you can't hit the gun unlike eddie or something lol.

[@docs.a.t.7161]

Happy Chaos isn't a zoner, but a rushdown with sometimes fullscreen attacks. A lot of people think he's a zoner because they see the gun and the opponent in the corner, but what he really is defies conventional FG archetypes (shared only loosely by the likes of Arakune)

[@yeen.7209]

@@docs.a.t.7161 he isn't one, but he sure as hell can lol

[@yourhorseyepona7309]

Hey new to fighting games and terms. What r long buttons?

[@recalledgamer0010]

The best way to describe zoners is "you play MY game not THE game" zoners makes you play in a way you dont want and that annoying. Speaking as a zoner main : )

[@HazeEmry]

Something I like to say when in lobbies is "we play to have fun :D It's unfortunate my fun is tied to your misery~" or something like that . Rile em up so that the satisfaction of beating me doubles hahaha

[@shirshobanerjee7751]

Remember, your opponent loses on the character select screen if they’re busy being tilited

[@gcacas2058]

Rushdown: 😜

[@rorykincannon1166]

And the fact zoners get to force that kind of interaction from round start usually for free is bad design. Even Lord Knight says most people play zoners to win, not fun.

[@yeen.7209]

honestly, i play zoners in fighting games because they're the characters that use their powers the most, and their powers tend to be the coolest. for example, i like characters like doctor strange or john constantine. i also play them because i find them easier and i like the subtle mental edge they provide so i can play comfortably. even when i'm being properly challenged as a zoner, i don't feel any sort of frustration. neat zoners i like include velvet from tfh, hilda from unib, and our new boy asuka. it's also my own unique way of "preventing" someone from playing the game, just like how 100 year blockstrings can make someone feel hopeless. it's like choosing telekinesis over super strength, y'know?

[@jermaineelliott2685]

You like not having to comprehend frame data. It doesn't apply to you when you're far away. Youre not trying to figure out what's plus, when's it your turn. Because from distance, it doesn't apply. As long as you step back. That's the "comfortable" aspect.

[@yeen.7209]

@@jermaineelliott2685 well put

[@happycamperds9917]

My favorite kinds of zoners are ones with a strong offense tied to a resource. Instead of just poking, you are playing keep away until you can finally go in for the kill. It makes it feel a lot more purposeful. The obvious issue, of course, being that this archetype is almost always overpowered (Morrigan from MvC3, Racheal from Centeal Ficrion, etc).

[@uber_duck]

Venom in Xrd is another great example of this type of zoner. With balls, his offense is very strong, but he needs to zone to create situations where he can win enough frame advantage (knockdown, blocking a ball) to set up his strong offense.

[@mrstrawhat9227]

Happy Chaos has entered the chat

[@heracrossz7701]

Elliana from RoA is a good example too.

[@sebastiandelvillarmontoya1447]

Ash in KOF XV

[@chaoticstarfish3401]

I feel like the main reason I can't get into fighting games is because I want to play as a zoner, but the only character in any game I've ever seen make zoning not boring nor insanely complicated is Axl Low, and Guilty Gear Strive is _fucking expensive_ where I live.

[@ellagage1256]

As a Axl main with mixed thoughts on zoners... I feel that

[@xDJKerox]

Hilda from UNI is pretty straightforward and fun, I think there was a rumor about Undernight in birth 2, looking forward to UNI with rollback :pray: 🙏

[@Scummoner]

Guilty Gear XX Accent Core +R goes for a few dollars on sale and it's really good. It has decent amount of people playing it and Axl is very fun in that game. Give it a shot!

[@chaoticstarfish3401]

@@Scummoner I didn't want to dive into the older games because I thought there would be no playerbase left. It is pretty cheap though, so I'll check it out when I get some free time. Thanks for the recommendation!

[@Boredom_Incarnate]

Not to mention nigh on unplayable, until hopefully May 25th when they release the patch. Can't stress enough the optimism required to believe that, but hey, here's hoping anyway.

[@PR1ME98]

I love characters that can do everything because they have an answer for everything.

[@Gamersgoinblind]

I'd say Rushdown are the most hated being they just go in and push buttons without thinking and it's just super annoying -signed a grappler and zoner player

[@Gamersgoinblind]

Another thing to consider is that with a zoner you have three win conditions, poking the opponent until they die, timing out the opponent or beating the patience out of the other person And zoners are easy to beat if they're predictable, the best ones throw you off by messing with timing and other projectiles.

[@gcacas2058]

it depends on the rushdown with characters like akuma or chipp you have to know what you are doing because their low health leaves no room for mistakes

[@Hadesnash777]

Skill issue noticed, opinion invalidated

[@DovahPoot]

You know, i used to think zoners just werent the type for me. Every time i saw one i went "Eh, not for me." and left to check someone else. Then in comes Axl Low and there`s just something about this British time traveler and his infectious joy that got me wanting to play him. Granted, im not quite good at him, i still do better with Sol or Gio, but he is still quite a bit of fun to me.

[@kyoukisatori4988]

Can't wait to hear you do a "Why you hate fighting setplay".

[@MozeXI]

I respect setplay cause I'm too stupid for that shit I play mixup characters and shotos. Ungabunga overhead, low where will I go?

[@Boredom_Incarnate]

I feel like zoners are the fighting games' answer to a difficult bit of design space in games; Denial. Anybody who plays Magic the Gathering either plays Blue (known for its' stable reserve of "No" effects and other "You don't get to play, it's my turn again now" cards) or dislikes it to some degree. It's like being stunned in a tabletop RPG, you just get your phone out and kinda disconnect until you can actually play again. Zoners can't do that as harshly (at least not as easily, depending on the character) and the game still has to be at least kind of balanced, so zoner types get long-ranged attacks or a form of setplay to prevent the more traditional "get in and beat face" characters from getting near your face. They do have combos but typically these are harder to pull off and have less payoff than say a rushdown combo, so their design leans heavily into that less common playstyle of winning by life-lead and timeout. With trap characters not being very common in my experience, similarly with setplay, and most puppet archetypes being just mixup simulators, I think this also makes zoners feel very niche and like conceptually they are a much bigger step away from the other archetypes than they are from each other.

[@Boredom_Incarnate]

@@rleften5788 Sounds exactly like playing against Blue in Magic. The disconnected feeling I mention could best be attributed to not doing well against a zoner. I don't personally have that issue, but I can see what you mean.

[@SecretTechniqueGuy]

What is the value for a game designer to include "denial" as one of the archetypes in their game? Just because a concept exists doesn't mean it will improve the game for it to be present. Including an archetype explicitly based on not being fun for 50% of the players involved seems like a mistake for a game maker.

[@Boredom_Incarnate]

@@SecretTechniqueGuy It's a fair point and just to clarify I don't think it's required by any means, just that it's difficult to implement in the best way. At the heart of most games is interaction and a fundamental type of interaction is denial, thus the temptation to add it. Being that "two steps away conceptually" where everything else seems "one step away" also means it adds the potential for more complexity and consideration, which some players find engaging. Done properly there shouldn't be as much of an argument against it. As with Blue in Magic, they won't always be holding Counterspell, they need resources open to cast it (usually), and you might have ways around it. It's no different in fighting games where things like hyper-armor or a more mobile character can get around zoners' strategies, or perhaps another mechanic that disincentivizes zoning that character in the first place (like some kind of retribution or rage procced by damage).

[@SecretTechniqueGuy]

@@Boredom_Incarnate I appreciate the thoughtful response. I personally feel most fighting games don't implement zoners in a good way (from a design point of view) but I do agree that there's a way to do this archetype that can be fun and interesting not only to play AS, but also to play AGAINST (even for beginners).

[@MasterKnightDH]

@@Boredom_Incarnate I think the most important thing is to have long range counter play in the long range tools in and of themselves, in addition to ways to defeat a mobility advantage as long as they require active thought. If that much is done, then long range starts involving mixup and ESPECIALLY positioning that inevitably creates risk assessment. I can cite this to be one reason to be why the stun you bring up should be handled with care. This is something Kid Icarus Uprising gets going with. In fact, that "Denial" aspect you brought up is handled brilliantly by a Power called Black Hole, which sets up a Black Hole beacon to vacuum the opponent right toward it. The opponent does not receive any hard locks on their options directly because of Black Hole, but their mobility is forced into a tug-of-war against the vacuum that is bound to overpower the mobility. That's the important thing: nothing stops the opponent from choosing an option, so they still have choices, even if they better realize know what the BH user will do with the vacuum support and act accordingly. Most notably with a standard Club's Forward Shot for the burst damage, this is typically answered by other Powers, which means resource burning. This is particularly prevalent with Armor Powers (Super Armor, Counter, Aries Armor, Trade-Off, and Libra Sponge), since the knockback immunity provided by them applies against the vacuum, but if the player gets too crazy with burning through them, they'll be down an important option. Add to it that Black Hole is only 6 spaces on the Power Grid for its 2 charges to allow for adding auxiliary options such as Counter and Quick Charge that can easily allow semi-passive pressure against anything trying to play possum to keep response Power spam on standby, and you can efficiently threaten to time-bomb most setups. It gets to the point where identifying a setup ends up actively rewarded. The only issue in design beyond balance issues that still persist, is that Black Hole has been considered by some to be cheap, despite my points about it basically being a command grab that has interaction. A key part of the problem lies with how players who just have the game on them are poorly introduced to the Power system. If people started with Super Armor and a few other Powers, that would let them know how to contest Black Hole while still driving the point home to consider their resource management. I can particularly mention that I initially had Black Hole out of consideration for busting distance opening because of Super Armor existing, before I tried it out, 10 months after the game's release, to be pleasantly surprised by the results. If more people knew about these checks and balances, then they could be more comfortable about dealing with Black Hole. There are other ways to disrupt long range shenanigans, but one thing worth noting with Kid Icarus Uprising is that there's a Parry Chargeup mechanic, where if you Parry Dodge an attack (it has to be a Parry Dodge, not a Dasharound, though at long range, this distinction isn't a problem), you get chargeup. Clubs actually have the highest percent value of Parry Chargeup on top of reasons for having the highest chargeup times of any Weapon Family in the first place as well. With that in mind, you can send back Shots of your own at better frequency against those pesky spammers. This solution isn't perfect, but it IS worth considering. With that in mind, I can safely say that Kid Icarus Uprising has answers, and just needed to iron out the biggest imbalances to make sure it more consistently has what is desirable: interaction at preferred ranges.

[@Unserioussam328]

i feel like my brain is bent a bit. because I like zoners - *fighting against zoners, that is*. I deeply enjoy running them down and ripping their limbs off since I play big heavy hard hitters. So if I get in? "hello. you have fucked up. now perish."

[@gogocrazycocoa]

I honestly like playing characters that annoy my opponent. It's the reason I main May and Axl.

[@Hadesnash777]

No parental love detect

[@gogocrazycocoa]

@@Hadesnash777 I was just with my dad the other day lol

[@MobDraws69]

I love setups, space control, and range that zoners provide because of their versatility. I tend to use these qualities to set up aggressive plays since I’m a shoto/rushdown player at heart. But every now and then I fall into the “evils” of zoning, that being the overuse of projectiles.

[@DaviddeBergerac]

Vlov is the only zoner I play but I also mainly use his zoning tools to condition my opponent so I can chop them into bits with my big knife

[@mkooij]

I think the well rounded (shoto) characters are by far the least hated. Then grapplers then turtles then rushdown then zoners.

[@Imanifestchaos]

As someone who spars. The best way to analogy a zoner is how Floyd mayweather fights uses his height and reach advantage just uses his jabs to keep you honest and just does that until you get impatient. Running away and throwing rocks is a more extreme example that cpuld happen but turning your back away from someone and booking it isnt as straight forward as it sounds

[@smaethesmae5184]

When i saw this, i was kinda surprised this wasn't an hour long rant about zoners

[@lostsauce911]

As an axl main you’re absolutely correct

[@mythmage8231]

That analogy at the start perfectly explains why people hate Zoners, and not for the reasons you think. See, that analogy perfectly describes how most people see Zoners: cowards who run away while throwing rocks when you're trying to have an "honorable fight". To a Zoner, it moreso just feels like you're the only person who was smart enough to bring a glock instead of a chainsaw, keeping distance not because they're scared, but because that's the best way to negate your advantages while empowering their own. Honestly, it's funny how Rushdown is beloved and Zoning is despised, when they're two sides of the same coin. They both negate their low survivability by just preventing you from having a turn, pressuring you into being overtly emotional and making a mistake because of it. The only difference is that one is for crack addicts and the other is for potheads. By all means, Grapplers should, in theory, be the universally beloved archetype, because they allow for longer periods of gameplay by putting all their damage in one grab, instead of just frametrapping you to death. Then again, Rushdown's entire thing is lobotomizing yourself because you have the frame data to just win without thought, so I guess it makes sense after all.

[@misterknite]

I kind of respect that you 100% committed to both sides of the argument

[@phorchybug3286]

I like playing as them. Just makes me feel cozy. I suck at doing your fancy rush down combos or whatever.

[@matmil5]

"Shotos are designed to make you feel... something" Dude don't call us out like that 😂 Fr tho Shotos feel like you are playing chess at times. Due to a large tool kit, you get to choose one of myriad of options to counter the specific way the opponent is playing and seretonin comes from that for me at least Also, you beat my ass in Celestial last month, pleasure to play with you good sire

[@xDJKerox]

And that same frustration is what is amazing about playing them, JP is going to be a delight to play 😂

[@dimex3362]

People hate zoners for 2 main reasons. 1. The way you get in on zoners is via a dash type move, a jump type move or a teleport type move. Because these are so good, most good zoners have ways to beat these while NOT guessing the opponents move choice. Dhalsims standing light kick is one of these style of attacks. If you try to dash in, it kicks you. If you try to jump it, it’s fast enough to recover and still have time to AA you. This is incredibly frustrating to play against. 2. Because most characters aren’t designed to inherently fight keepaway. So you don’t feel like you are actually fighting till you get close.

[@thechugg4372]

3. The tools zoners use usually completely counter most damaging combos (think jump heavy in street fighter 5) meaning even when you do get close you usually only poke them or go for a low damage combo, you're lucky if you can get a knockdown.

[@jermaineelliott2685]

Fighting games usually supply zoners with tools to stop their opponents from getting in, by comparison they rarely ever supply rushdown or grapplers a means of stopping zoners from being able to abuse their tactics.

[@komanderkuma6378]

Does anyone know what this song is? 3:56

[@DanielC10_]

I hate zoners because i get bored playing tactically against them and i just want to ungabunga in the opponents face as much as possible (why, yes, i *do* suck at fighting games, how could you tell?)

[@catowarmeowson9964]

You must REALLY suck man if you think zoners are anything other then free wins

[@gcacas2058]

you should use the character with better mobility and pressure them

[@Hadesnash777]

No dude, you got a point, why should we play completely different because someone woke up wanting to be quirky and different

[@ellagage1256]

I think I just really enjoy characters with more flexible mechanics and zoners usually scratch that itch as long as they have a more complicated game plan beyond the same two moves (I'm looking at you Guile...) I'm especially a fan of moves that can be followed up with multiple other moves like Axl's Resen, Slayer's Dandy Step or Dee Jay's new Jus Cool sway in SF6.

[@hijster479]

I never understood why people don't understand why projectile zoners need to be able to control more space in anime/team games. The main balance issue with zoners is how large the stage is relative to movement. In something like Street Fighter with around average sized stages and very limited movement, having a simple fireball for zoning is fine. In fact because movement is so limiting the pushback can be more punishing than any chip damage. But if you look at Melty and GG the stages are usually smaller and the movement is much more freeing. So in neutral zoners need to be able to create space quickly and control most, or at least a good chunk of it on demand. There are just too many different angles to cover with a single linear special with no cancel options. The issue is that tools like this tend to make oppressive roundstart options, so it can end up feeling like zoners always get to go first, and they can take advantage of this fear to retreat. For all the communities complaining, this is a problem Vlov doesn't have in Type Lumina. Because you can move before roundstart his projectiles are much riskier, especially considering Vlovs slow speed and jump-startup. He actually has to use the core movement to create space instead of taking advantage of roundstart range to start zoning for free.

[@thechugg4372]

Also Vlov has combos that deal the same damage as the rest of the cast from a zoning position which is now my geatest fear.

[@Hadesnash777]

Congratulations you wrote an essay, a dare call it a bible just to defend the most frustrating and ( in my opinion ) most lame arctype

[@alexojideagu]

@@Hadesnash777 The reason I hate Zoners, is because it's a style purely about winning. It has zero creativity or style. This is why in football people loved Barcelona or Man City etc not Atletico Madrid. If ALL you care about is winning, then fair enough. Zoning is effective. But I'm not going to be playing a game to do that.

[@gimmeyourrights8292]

Zoners are the type of people that saw Megaki in Kof XI and said "God, that's so hot."

[@omrizubary]

Projectile based zoners: Backdash,throw a fireball,back dash throw a fireball, back dash throw a fireball, backdash throw a fireball....untill you win. Than you get tbagged and in chat "lol git gud skill issue" bit if you beat them they rage quit

[@Michirin9801]

I play super-old fighters a fair amount, like, 90s stuff... They have *SO MANY ZONERS...* It's almost like, every other game I try has like, 2 shotos, 1 grappler, and Everyone Else Is A Zoner... At least it's what it feels like... I blame Street Fighter II giving more than half the characters at least one charge move lol

[@PositiveBlackSoul]

Me, sitting here, enjoying my Zoner free life in Tekken.

[@RealBigMitch]

Just block man that's how u beat zoners

[@ivettemedina6253]

Most people don't have the patience to block

[@nekomekoplays]

I didn't pay 60 dollars to block

[@emeraldmann1329]

I didn't pay $60 to block, that's why I play zoners

[@1v1dogfights81]

Chip damage: Allow me to introduce myself

[@ivettemedina6253]

@@1v1dogfights81 hello chip damage I forgot about you!

[@АннаЛиберт-ь1й]

Your example with a rocks throwing is not even a zoning tho. It's Bridget from AC+R, and I love her for it )

[@MonkeyDLogan8]

Axl low main here. My uncle (the guy who got me into playing guilty gear) always said that I was a very good zoner player because I’m not scared to be aggressive but I can sit back and use projectiles

[@410Kian]

Not really much about hating normals style zoners in here tbh. It’s mostly about why projectile is nuts.

[@georgegkoumas5026]

I would argue that it's not even projectile Zoners but rather only anime projectile Zoners. I'd love to fight a Guile or an Axl any time with any character but I will hate myself every time I have to fight a Testament with something that is not Chipp.

[@HazeEmry]

​@@georgegkoumas5026Guile is so boring to watch though. Testament is fun

[@georgegkoumas5026]

@@HazeEmry I would watch Daigo play Guile any time but if I see another Testament doing the funny projectile spam I will just leave

[@thechugg4372]

@@HazeEmry Guile is like the one zoner that is actually interesting to watch though because he can make mistakes, something anime zoners don't seem to understand as a possibility.

[@ghxst-note9808]

The most cancerous projectile zoner to me will always be Peacock from skullgirls, love the character but hate her in a fight.

[@michelebenedetti7507]

We don't need zoner apologizers

[@crowunderground]

I found it funny how the clips are just the Zoners being beat up

[@tusdarryl]

Great video as usual! I still struggle against Zoners for this very reason, but I'm also a beginner to fighting games generally speaking so hopefully one day I can deal with them a bit better. I also love how this video came out the day after I got my ass handed to me by a Guile player several times in the SF6 open beta. lol

[@bungusbajablast2877]

midrange trap characters are the best because they zone at a range where the opponent doesn't feel powerless

[@markbost6915]

Shotos are designed to make you feel like eating lettuce and white bread for every meal is perfectly normal and cool

[@Jamception]

Love the ending more than anything else, especially as a zoner in a couple games

[@justabeholder4753]

Im so excited for asuka guilty gear

[@siege5557]

I love playing Zoners for the same reason I play Mill in MTG because F you were playing my game if you like it or not.

[@Spooks_FGC]

I play millia, I like fighting zoners.

[@sunnycombo5275]

Zoners. NRS games: Let me introduce myself

[@majones117]

Even knowing how to beat a zoner and winning, I don't have fun playing against them. Fun is the most important part of a game for me.

[@taxinvasion260]

Between rushdown, grappler, and zoner The most hated is, of course, all of them.

[@haha69funi28]

as a zoner, it may look like the character is free, but it's really not. the power i get from keeping you away can be snatched away in an instant with a good approach from the enemy, and i might never escape that situation im put in

[@thechugg4372]

big cap

[@MozeXI]

As someone who was a skarlet main in mk11 no. Zoners aren't hard you have the so many options that you can just punish over and over and spam even if they get in alot of them can telaport like raiden and Seth so the work becomes fukin useless. Seth is a 10:0 matchup on Hugo on sf4 because his zoning and movement is absolutely ridiculous

[@Brandonious15987]

​@Maya Kali Zooners are not easier then any other type of character. Most of the time, there are options to get in and huge punish if you do. Everyone pretends the archetype they hate takes no skill and is easy to play.

[@Hadesnash777]

Take that Dante pfp out, but a Lady one if you like zoners so munch lmao 🤣

[@fushiisweep]

@@thechugg4372 - someone who doesn't play zoners

[@Tungdil_01]

Zoner is the Control in Magic the Gathering, and Stall in Pokemon. Rushdown is the Aggro / Hyper Offense. All-rounder is Mid-range / Balance. Archetypes are everywhere : )

[@thiagohanaoka6351]

"This was supposed to be a noble fight not an bullet hell simulator: Asuka mains menwhile

[@xxscythemarkxx6552]

I've never player testament as a zoner in my life bruh

[@ManlyPlant]

The funniest part about morrigan is that zoning isn't anywhere close to the only reason she's mega busted in UMvC3 and thats pretty great and neat imo

[@neoconker2k8]

Im 100% in hate with zoners. They're the only archetype that requires you to play their game that is not fun/unlike playing against any other type imo

[@eggbreakerdotexe]

Gekko stops talking about War Thunder at 2:42

[@opposite_directions]

Hi gecko! Loved the video, but the music was a bit too high volume. A lighter theme or less volume wouldve been nice :] btw, thanks for sumarizing gg lore!!! I learnt so much!

[@NotLawBDO]

Me personally am trying to find out what the music ost is called i want it in my playlist 🥲

[@RitzMalheur]

What is the game at 0:56 ? :0

[@Tsunami14]

Under Night In Birth

[@janderrocha]

You hate zoners cause you're supposed to by design. That's the best take i've heard in a LONG while.

[@Flareinfernos]

The timing fir this vid is perfect given twitters talk about zoners lol

[@sevensvn5391]

Lol, I was literally thinking of mvc3 morrigan when they showed up in the video.

[@JohnnyGuiltyMan]

I main Nago and Leo. It's an absolute nightmare to match up with a zoner with them because I absolutely suck at approaching my opponent with them, mostly because both of them have rather restricted movement

[@slenderscoot3846]

Me and my friend have this "thing" where grabs are BS and would avoid grabbing as much as possible i had to learn to change that mindset to fight zoners along with mix ups

[@kuraio3017]

I have a friend that’s a zoner player. In every game we play, no matter what character he picks. No matter how he changes his playstyle. It’s still annoying to fight him purely cause it’s him. I can’t explain it. He’s not better than majority of the people in the group at fighting games. He’s not horrible either but even when we win against him it’s still annoying

[@Master_Matoya]

Guilty Gear is like the Gateway drug of zoners, first I hated them, then I got my hands on testament, and then bedman, and now Asuka.

[@MadnessJackey]

give Potemkin an invincible DP

[@MythicMachina]

This video inadvertently explains the appeal of Zoners too. It's about the control you have. As soon as the game starts, you almost always get to decide the pace of the match. Constantly pushing people of of their preferred range and attacks makes you feel like a fucking supervillain. You're in MY realm now and you're going to deal with MY rule as I watch upon my throne! Squirm all you want, you can't stop me! But there's also something satisfying about getting in and finally putting them down, like seeing the villain in your favorite show finally be defeated! Zoners aren't inherently evil, they're just more a heel than the rest of the archetypes. There are some Zoners that are bullshit though (Morrigan, Phoenix), but just as many if not more so bullshit Rushdown characters (VIRGIL.)

[@yeen.7209]

yeah pretty much. hilda from the under night games is LITERALLY this exact feeling and she is literally that type of character, to go "squirm under my rule" while she does a half-screen combo with her screen-sized normals lol

[@Hamisback]

Strike throw > Rush down > mix-up > shoto > grapplers (crayon eaters) > zoners (scum of the earth)

[@Scrimbus_McBimbus]

Because I like hitting people and zoners are too far away to hit

[@vinsincere]

WHAT THE FUCK THE MORRIGAN BIT AND THE SHOTO BIT WAS GOATED I AM YOUR BIGGEST FAN NOW

[@leifwulffstephan3725]

You forgot Deathstroke and Deadshot💀

[@s.b.e._9692]

As a player with no honor, you're absolutely right

[@Flariot]

Ok but can you explain why I love PLAYING zoners?

[@joaov2374]

I don't have good reflexes and fingers to play 90% of characters in fighting games. But I'm very good at strategy and FUNDAMENTALS, mainly managing resources, timing and space. That's why my game is lame and slow. I can extract 100% of my aesthetic potential, even though I'm bad at reflexes and combos when playing with zoners. Play smart, win games! I really love to control my opponents in every game I play.

[@Korosivv]

ZONER GANG ZONER GANG ZONER GANG

[@zechariahcaraballo8765]

I find fighting zoners fun, having to think and outsmart and outplay my opponent is fun, but I also main characters rhat are decently good at dealing with zoners lol

[@zoewhyumadbro3090]

1:07 until nu 13 is on screen. i never understood, why zoner players thought that their characters are difficult. sure, there might be SOME intricacies in keeping your opponent at range, but how difficult can it really be? fast forward to 3 days ago where i got the 2 blazblue games on steem. i thought "yea, imma try out nu 13, always liked her design and moveset, HOW HARD CAN IT POSSIBLY BE TO PLAY A ZONER?". i then proceeded to getting my ass handed to me for just short of 10 hours. in that time, i probably learned more about the character i am playing, then in the 100 hours i have on strive, 50 hours on sf5, 60 hours of tekken 7 and 60 hours on accent core+r, COMBINED. the level of thinking, that goes into a zoner is wayyy different from what you have to know about a rusdown or a grappler. And if you are not prepared to learn a lot, they are really difficult at first. TLDR, i have mad respect for zoner players. The amount of effort that is not visible to outsiders is crazy

[@someaccount5200]

Nu is generally difficult cause one mistake and she just dies

[@yeen.7209]

i BEGAN playing zoners and let me tell you, it locked me out of a mindset i was supposed to have when playing normally. i was so scared and focused on staying a full screen's distance that i never used my massive disjoints or any set of normals until it was too late. playing strive, a game with no real zoners until now, helped me develop that level of aggression and ability to maintain pressure with my character and not just what they do. bridget helped me a lot with that because she does everything. range, rush, etc.

[@InvinciDon]

If my opponent can’t approach, that’s fine, I’ll leave and find someone who will, this is a fighting game, not a shootout.

[@Hadesnash777]

Bro is spitting fire

[@Tsunami14]

If you REALLY want to see the insanity of Morrigan projectiles, look up some Chris G mstches. The example from this video is tame by comparison.

[@KingTwelveSixteen]

5:51 Absolutely no mercy for those filthy Wolverine players. Can't stand that character and his 1 touch kills.

[@GuerrillaGorilla023]

I'm an I-No main, if I miss a dash block I get full comboed into a super and then a wall break. I can tolerate Axl but death to Happy Chaos and I curse all the people who main him