If the Imperial Navy Fixed THIS They Could’ve Beat the Rebels

The Galactic Empire always made naval battles easier for the Rebel Alliance, this was mostly due to their organization's culture of arrogance and lack of strategic urgency. Today we take a look at a very common mistake that the Imperial Navy made, and cost them the entire galaxy.
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[@rexlumontad5644]

Cassio Tagge: "And until this Battle Station is fully operational, we are vulnerable. The Rebel Alliance is too well equipped. They're more dangerous than you realize!" Conan Antonio Motti: "Dangerous to your Starfleet, Commander, not to this Battle Station."

[@Ranyick]

It still confuses me why a general commands a starfleet

[@leonielson7138]

@@Ranyick Because George Lucas didn't know anything about the military beyond the WWII movies he grew up with, with army Generals being in charge of island-hopping campaigns, usually with Army Air Corps and Marine Corps pilots launching from improvised runways instead of naval aviators launching from the still small number of aircraft carriers in service.

[@sinisterisrandom8537]

@@leonielson7138 admirals, generals are the same thing. Only difference is merely name. But I do agree was an error on his part.

[@demonicaxeman7264]

@@sinisterisrandom8537 An error compared to Earth's paramilitaries or fantasy in general?

[@nooneatall8072]

​@@Ranyick The titles "Admiral" and "General" are just that - titles. They don't have to refer to land vs sea command (or planetary/troop command vs. naval/ship command). It would be up to the political/military entity in question to define these terms. I think that "General" in particular has been used for naval commanders at times. For example, "General Admiral" was used by several navies in history such as the Spanish, Portuguese, and Dutch among others. "Captain-General" was another term used by various navies and countries for the commander of a field army or navy. The general in question was in charge of forces only on the Death Star. I can see an army/land/planetary rank being used there. The Death Star is a "space station", not a ship. And would have hundreds of thousands of troops on board. Thus having generals on board does make some sense. That being said, @Leo Nielson just might be correct re. it being a potential mistake by Lucas. [warning - some kind of history follows. hopefully accurrate. ignore freely 🙂] Leo is likely referring to Dugout Doug (General MacArthur). MacArthur was the "Theater Commander" of the Southwest Pacific Area in WW2 (is that the correct name of the theater?) and as such had control of the land, air, and sea forces in his theater. Even so, he did not have direct control of the ships - the Navy had an Admiral in charge of "MacArthur's Fleet" (eventually the 7th Fleet). But this admiral was subservient to and reported to Big Mac. In the central and southern Pacific, though, it was the Navy who was in charge of the island hopping campaigns. That was the purview of Admiral C. Nimitz primarily (there were sub-theaters but Nimitz was the overall Naval commander in the Pacific, sans MacArthurs theater). Here the Navy laid out the campaign plans and led the campaigns, with the Marine and Army generals in command of "boots on the ground". The Navy did most everything that it could to assist those generals, but the generals did not command the ships offshore. Disregarding specific shore bombardment and fire support missions of course. I'll note that Big Mac did not have command of any of the Navy's fast fleet carriers nor its primary striking Task Forces. Nimitz and the Navy kept control of those. They would be sent to support Big Mac as needed (and available) but were never attached to MacArthur's theater nor placed under his nor any other general's command. [I will note that I am not considering Operation Downfall and/or Olympic, which were never executed.] Above these 2 were the Joint Chiefs and above those the Combined Chiefs of Staff (combined British, American, et al). These laid out the high level strategies for the war. And seemed to have a majority of generals.

[@brianbromley9586]

"Evacuate? In our moment of triumph. I think you overestimate their chances". Alright well...I left something in my fighter...I'll be right back. (Runs away)

[@VigilanteAgumon]

Vice Admiral Takeo Kurita, abandoning the Battleship Musashi in WWII.

[@neckermangames5872]

The Death Star situation is like if the US would sent one of their Supercarrier into enemy waters without any escorts and not even sending 1 plane or helicopter out when several small assault boats are approaching the ship. Aka absolutely idiotic, but that's kind of the Empire's whole thing.

[@marrqi7wini54]

However it's a more forgivable if you think of it this way. Sending that super carrier wouldn't be too stupid if those enemy waters are basically the Caribbean island countries or if the Florida Keys decides to leave the US. (And even the US probably would have an escort or 2 just to be on the safe side.) Unlike the empire, we have the "benefit" of having rival powers so you really can't afford to make such foolish mistakes.

[@nooneatall8072]

Another analogy would be sending dreadnought battleships somewhere to shell a facility that had air cover. And not sending fighter protection for these ships. (I am not thinking of US battleships later in WW2; these had almost enough AA firepower and fire control to defend themselves.) Or maybe into areas with destroyers and torpedo boats w/o escorts for the battleship. Perhaps the Japanese sending battleships to shell the airfield at Guadalcanal would qualify. Or the Yamato to Okinawa. Or the Yamato, Musashi, et al sailing towards Leyte Gulf w/o sufficient air cover. The Fuso Yamashiro coming up the Surgaio Straight during the the Battle Leyte Gulf might qualify for the torpedo boats scenario. Or the Austrian battleship that was sunk by torpedo boats in WW1.

[@kenle2]

We see the starfighter proton torpedoes hit the surface of the Death Star and it accounts for like .00000000001 percent damage. Tarkin wasn't worried about the damage a thousand fighters could inflict in something the size of a small COUNTRY on Earth. He understood the firepower and the solidity of the Death Star's passive defense. He also understood if fighters ever inflicted any significant damage to some vital system, the Death Star could always just hyperspace away and be put back online at a protected port like Kuat in a few weeks at most. Only Krennic, just before his death, realized what Galen Urso had done in making one of the thermal exhaust ports a direct gateway to the main reactor core. And he never got a chance to tell anyone. Apparently someone in the Death Star's engineering department realized the exhaust port was somewhat vulnerable: "We've analyzed their attack, and there is a danger ..." But by that time, Tarkin was like five minutes from destroying the main rebel base and securing the Emperor's undying gratitude , and he wasn't in the mood to believe his ultimate weapon was going to go down because of a handful of fighters when most of the Rebels had already died trying to make a successful attack.

[@christianholzschuh6853]

If the only way to destroy this supercarrier would be to get a torpedo into their exhaus tube, repeat: EXHAUST as in blow the stuff out, not suck it in, why would it need any sort of escort?

[@NareshSinghOctagon]

Kenle,your statement doesn't explain why not a single turbolaser opened up on the incoming targets at the ranges the turbolasers were designed for(probably because Lucas didn't think of cool shots involving flying towards flak blasts like bombers flying high above Germany during WWII),doesn't explain why the 7000 star fighters on said station just sat there the entire time not doing Jack Squat(probably because Lucas didn't actually think about how many were on it until after),doesn't explain why they didn't have forward scouts,LIKE THE ONES THAT RAN INTO THE FALCON,as they approached(more Lucas oversight),and doesn't explain why,when Darth Vader finally got off of his leather coevered cyborg arse,only his squadron was launched despite the overwelming doctrine that was in place(Lucas!). In short,George Lucas wasn't exactly a military commander,and this resulted in everysingle Imperial officer on the Death Star being quite lacking,there's also the tech limitations they had when making the movie,but these simply feed into the aspect of later adding huge numbers to the station when they didn't actually show them on screen.

[@jbz4788]

The Empire needed to have at least some of it’s fighters deployed before the rebels had even arrived at whatever they were defending. (I believe that would be called a combat air patrol)

[@marrqi7wini54]

That would have solved many issues for the empire.

[@weishi9804]

They did sent 3-4, which blasted away by the dozen missiles upon contact.

[@twistedyogert]

@@weishi9804 So how about 100?

[@Sephiroth144]

Not only that- I didn't see an Interdictor deployed with the DS1... what were they going to do if some of the Rebels fled Yavin IV?

[@russellharrell2747]

Tarkin probably didn’t care to send out the standard TIE sentry ships since he was rushing to blow away the rebel base in half an hour. He must have thought the rebels were evacuating anyway and would have been complete fools to attack the station.

[@fnunez]

Another example of the empire's bad habit penny pinching in the wrong places was at the beginning of ANH. If the imperial gunner had been allowed to shoot at the escape pod with no life signs in it (but carrying two functional droids and the plans to the death star), the battle of Yavin would have been a lot shorter. I wonder if there was a culture of imperial naval officers flexing on how efficiently (read cheaply) they ran their ships.

[@Sephiroth144]

And that "no life signs aboard", EVEN if it was a cost saving issue, is foolish. Maybe make it more of an authority issue; the gunnery sergeant needs to get permission to fire* on "a lifepod without life signs", and those precious few seconds sends it out of (effective) targeting range- so they make a note and track it. Or, ya know, tractor beams exist. * Since the battle was reasonably over, the ship to ship emplacements would likely stand down from battle stations, and would need permission to engage

[@jasongoodwin8702]

What's amusing about the destruction of the death star, was in the game X-Wing, their were a few missions launched against the death star, one of them was to destroy two of the four containers that carried tie-fighters. Another mission was to destroy defense systems etc. It appears the creators of the game had an issue with Tarkin's doing nothing approach, but rather made the rebels work for the kill.

[@wij2012Gaming]

In legends, there was a given reason why they didnt launch fighters until later in the battle of yavin. The death star had been attacked previously by a much larger group of fighters and an old separatist carrier. Tye empire deployed ties to deal with the threat that time. With only 30 fighters at yavin coming against them, he felt it was better to let the gunners get the practice that time. Still a bad move but at least we had a reason given.

[@russellharrell2747]

The Fortressa!

[@SisyphusMMA]

Still good reason

[@recoil53]

Gunners on turbo lasers that were too ponderous to track snub fighters?

[@gabrielhenson5751]

@@recoil53 I mean, if you think your vessel is completely indestructible and 30 small targets with no ability to harm the station (that you know of) you might as well just let the gunners practice aim against small targets for the unlimited time you think you have till you decide to send out fighters to finish the job.

[@Shadx27]

If I ever get to writing my version of the Tie Fighter PC game novel, you will see after Yavin how the political battle between remaining Tarkin's and emerging Realistic strategies really kicks off. Maarek Stele at the end of campaign 4 even introduces a new fighter doctrine which would have tactical fleets deploy Tie Hunters, Tie Avengers, and Starwings (for a Star Destroyer 4 squads of Tie Hunter and one each of the other two). Standard Tie's to be phased out and Tie Interceptors and Bombers regulated to peace keeping areas only. I would even include Vice Admiral Faro testing out a new plan of capital ships, which you see starting in Campaign three all the way to the end of the game. It would take years for the Tarkin Doctrine to be truly removed, and the four after Yavin was not enough for the Empire to adjust.

[@Ragnarok6664]

Love it, kinda sad when you remember games like X wing vs TIE fighter and you could see a powerful roster of imperial fighter variants aswell as frigates and assault ships

[@Straswa]

Maarek is awesome, loved how he used a Tie Bomber to protect Thrawn's shuttle.

[@orokusaki1243]

Start now. Even 5 minutes of writing each day will add up over time.

[@timonsolus]

The issue with Maarek Stele's plan is that the Empire has a serious internal security problem. Many Rebel pilots were Imperial pilots who defected to the Alliance. The problem with giving all Imperial starfighter pilots hyperspace capable craft is the Empire doesn't fully trust most of its TIE pilots. Many of them could potentially use that hyperdrive to escape the Empire and join the Rebels (or become mercenaries or pirates). So, Imperial policy has been to only give the most loyal and trustworthy pilots access to hyperdrive capable craft. If all Imperial starfighters had hyperdrives, the Empire would need to find a way to limit the navigation computers to accept only authorized destinations, and also protect them from slicing (tampering).

[@Shadx27]

@@timonsolus A lot of that was Tarkin Doctrine as well. The tactical groups would have to be extremely loyal forces to get the best of equipment. The main issue with the Empire was that the military is ATM a big scary Peace Keeping force instead of an actual military fighting force. Once the Death Star blew up and the Rebellion became a true threat, the peace keeping force only really had numbers on its side and that wasn't cutting it well enough. As I said, it would take years for the Empire on whole to adjust, and it only got some decent lip service by the time of Endor.

[@Vidiocity92]

"The Command of Fools" would be a cool RPG expansion pack

[@quentinmwilson9837]

Imagine Tarkin having to explain the lost of the death star to the Emperor.

[@CloneScavengerVulpin8389]

In short: nothing good.

[@kenle2]

Which is probably, subconsciously, another reason he'd never abandon the station.

[@Sephiroth144]

"How come this asshole couldn't shoot down some farm boy?"

[@MrSrhammer1]

“What the hell is an aluminum falcon?…Who’s THEY?”

[@Sephiroth144]

@@MrSrhammer1 You must smell like leathery burnt bacon...

[@isaackim7675]

The a squadron's worth of TIE Defender Elite and TIE Interceptors would've been a perfect fighter defense for the second Death Star if Thrawn's project was approved

[@mr.boomguy]

As your probably aware of, Thrawn never approved of the Death Star in the first place, as it could only project power to one system at a time.

[@werewolfjedi38]

@Mr. Boomguy if im remembering right, in legends the largest remaining squad of tie defenders intact was present and did terrific amounts of capital ship damage.

[@StegoAqua]

Or imagine how many Tie Defenders fighters you could build out of the materials used to build a Death Star

[@HolyknightVader999]

LOL Rebel corvettes would've shredded them to pieces. They are especially designed to destroy starfighters, shielded or otherwise.

[@A_J502]

One squadron against an armada???

[@thomaswalmsley8959]

I might contend that (and I understand the speaker caveated the statement) that the dreadnought captain was arrogant or Incompetent in TLJ. He understand exactly what poe was doing (clearing a path for a strike force that could actually harm the capital ship), what the next move the rebels would make and what the necessary response would need to be from the order. It's actually one of the few moments of good writing/characters in that movie and one of the few of actual imperial competence in the franchise movies.

[@thorpeaaron1110]

Long story short the Empire should have listened to Thrawn . If the Tie Defender Program wasn't killed by Imperial military bureaucracy the Rebel Alliance would have been crushed.

[@collecter343]

Thrawn's absence certainly didn't help the program.

[@SaltRockStacker]

The TIE Defender would have helped. But unfortunately, it would still end up being squandered by incompetent officers who are more interested in polishing their own brass instead of acknowledging effective policies just because it was suggested by a rival officer.

[@jaymikevillanueva1212]

The compromise would have been shielded TIE interceptors and more production of Skipray blastboats. Another cheaper alternative is the Imperial Navy buying licenses of Sorosuub Preybirds to counteract the X-Wings while mass producing shielded TIEs and Defenders.

[@jaywerner8415]

@@jaymikevillanueva1212 The Tie Avenger Existed to fill that roll. It was based off Darth Vader's Tie.

[@barneytaylor9338]

Its the Doctrine of fear issue. When you rely on fear, you make your weapons as intimidating as possible. Stargate has a scene that sums this up perfectly. Col. Jack O'Neill "(holds up staff weapon) This is a weapon of fear. It is designed to intimidate your enemy. (holds up P-90) This is a weapon of war. It is designed to kill your enemy." At the end of the day, the rebels won because the empire used weapons of fear and the rebels used weapons of war. The Empire learned what countless others have learned throughout the ages. Fear does not work against brave men and women who have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[@Muamasow]

Indeed

[@PeterLGଈ]

Nicely said.

[@jaywerner8415]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[@Xazamas]

Video by KZbin channel Spacedock specifically compares how Goa'uld and Galactic Empire apply the strategy of "ruling through fear." Goa'uld have been the de facto rulers of Milky Way galaxy for countless generations and have successfully convinced people they rule over, including their own Jaffa soldiers, that they are gods. Most people under their rule are at stone or bronze age. They maintain their rule quite well until Stargate Command manages to gradually expose them as frauds and incite large-scale uprisings. Meanwhile Galactic Empire tries to do the same thing, but to the people who used to live in a democratic nation just few years ago and have access to advanced technology. Tarkin doctrine was generally never going to work. Maybe Death Star could've acted as a sufficient crutch? A New Hope has story/plot convenience take precedence over the political (and physical) ramifications of capability to casually destroy a planet. To me personally this paradigm presents only two planned outcomes, more reasonable being that Empire intended Alderaan to be the only populated planet to be actually destroyed. Rest would fall in line to not be destroyed. However, all it would take is one planet desperate/defiant/foolish enough to not comply and call the entire bluff. Or force Empire to fall back to the second option of destroying every planet that disobeys. This would eventually turn every habitable planet (and moon) in Star Wars galaxy into space debris.

[@KaitouKenshiro]

Agree but that's what the Empire gets for listening to an unstable a$$ like Tarkin rather than a brilliant mind like Thrawn... also that's my favourite scene in Stargate SG1 thanks 😄👍

[@janik02199]

I think the sad answer to all of these things is, that it is just star wars and not reality, so it is not thought threw or realistic.

[@lerneanlion]

How the Empire reacted to the destruction of the First Death Star is always the fascinating topic. Also, I think Thrawn is the key to everything when it is involved the Empire.

[@SgtHawk45]

If Thrawn was commander in chief of the entire imperial military, the war would have ended in a year.

[@recoil53]

We'll build a bigger one, then purposefully use it to trigger a battle before it has it's own shields. Of course it won't be finished either, so even light freighters can fly inside. Maybe make a whole planet into a long range Death Star? Alright, hear me out on this one - 10000 smaller Death Stars that are even more explosive. Then for some reason put them in a place where their shields have to be down. And have absolutely no supporting ships at all. I can't wait for the new trilogy, to find out how many Death Stars they build.

[@Kkk-cc1iy]

The first order cut costs and was more effective for the first time than the impire. There creation had a purpose lol. ​@@recoil53

[@recoil53]

@@Kkk-cc1iy All the Death Stars had a purpose. They just didn't all make sense.

[@Kkk-cc1iy]

@@recoil53 A purpose that could be replaced with 1000 star destroyers or 5 large megaships that would still cost less in total. The purpose of fear in this case doesn't make since.

[@chriseash6497]

I think partly that Tarkin wanted survivors to get away to say “we threw everything we had at it and we only scratched it!”

[@mr.boomguy]

3:43 - When you see that amount of ships, I really start thinking, "did they really need THAT many ships?". I mean, just spend more per ship, more chances of the ships returning, essentially paying for itself, and much less loss of life, or more importantly Skill. I don't think it takes a genius to figure it out. It's just pure logic to me. The Siths tactics continues to confuse me

[@mr.boomguy]

Also, with the bigger ships, make them smaller and sturdier

[@jarrodbright5231]

It makes perfect sense if you want to remove the best and brightest from your military to prevent a coup. Step 1: Make the TIE fighter pilot corps the most prestigious section of the Imperial armed forces Step 2: Get the best and brightest into the TIE fighter corps Step 3: Ensure massive casualties in the TIE fighter corps in any time of conflict No more competent veterans getting the idea of a mutiny during a conflict

[@chucksingh9339]

I chalk it up to the Sith success of mass production via the Star Forge in the last great Jedi - Sith War

[@slicerneons3300]

Blaming Budget Cuts instead of being Evil on why the Empire Lost feels like a PR campaign.

[@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem]

How would being evil make them lose?

[@dabuff1319]

Being Evil doesn't make you incompetent. Tarkin just had some weird fetish for giant death machines that scare people which made him do some very stupid things.

[@CHMichael]

We mainly see the lawless outer rim. People in the core worlds might have welcomed the added security. Just look at all the gated community's in Florida .

[@p_serdiuk]

@@dabuff1319 Being autocratic does make you incompetent in the long run. Tarkin was able to push his doctrine because the Empire is ruled by a single person, which is coincidentally also the reason the Empire is evil, as that person happens to be a Sith.

[@Ragnarok6664]

@@p_serdiuk sith gets shit done 👌🏻

[@kdavidsmith1]

I think it could be chalked up to a combination of off screen deployment (IIRC Red & Gold Squadron weren't the only squadrons deployed to attack the Death Star), arrogance and the officer core being taught large fleet to fleet tactics & doctrine. The Empire's overall doctrine ran counter to preventing insurgency & rebellion.

[@pirobot668beta]

Palpatine didn't want to defeat the Rebels, he needed the rebellion to rationalize everything he did 'for the defense of the Empire and the restoration of Order'. A 'pitiful band' of sappers doesn't justify planet-killer weapons. He had to let the Rebels make significant gains before unleashing his toys. In the end, the Emperor was willing to destroy anything and anyone who stood between him and ultimate power. But what was his motive for consolidating the entire Galaxy in such a brutal way? I don't believe for one second that ego or the Dark side steered his course. Outside the Galaxy, there are dangerous things the Force has turned away from. Did Palpatine sense the Vong?

[@done.6191]

Gotta love that auto closed captioning. "Thai defender," "tide defender "

[@adamwu4565]

In any assymmetrical warfare, for the side with the disadvantage in material and manpower to have a chance of winning, they need to have some compensating assymmetries going the opposite way, in their favor. It could be a technological edge in some specific critical aspect, or support of the local populace, or greater knowledge of the terrain, or morale, or will to continue fighting. Or, it could be sheer leadership incompetence and/or doctrinal obsolesence on the other side.

[@roho10011]

Don’t always agree with everything in your videos, but I have to say that your channel is consistently entertaining and thought provoking. Thank you so much for all your content!

[@chadbrad8100]

what do you disagree on? Seems like what he is saying is usually facts

[@enoughothis]

The Death Star's fighter complement numbered eight thousand TIE Fighters. Grandma Tarkin launched precisely none of them. Indeed it fell to Vader to see the danger and order the fighters be launched, this nearly succeeded at thwarting the Rebel attack. If not for the intervention of the Imperial deserter and hardened criminal Han Solo, it would have.

[@Grubnar]

Han Solo showed up on the Death Star hours after Alderaan was destroyed. On his ship he had: Vader's son. Vader's daughter, Vader's old astromech, the protocol droid Vader built as a child, the wookie who saved Ahshoka's life, and Vader's old friend and master Obi-Wan Kenobi, back from the dead! Vader must have been like: "Who the Hell was that guy in the vest?!?!" Then like a day or two later, Han sneaks up on Vader, one of if not the best starfighter pilot in the entire galaxy, in what is essentially a heavily modified 18-wheeler, and shoots him in the ass! ... Yeah I would have tortured him too at Bespin!

[@enoughothis]

@@Grubnar, every father has a moment where they'd love to torture their daughter's boyfriend. Vader was just allowing all of them to live vicariously through him.

[@Grubnar]

@@enoughothis He he, good point! He was just channeling the Force ... a different force!

[@robertabernathy3148]

I just got to tell you that this is the very best Star Wars KZbin channel ever. There is always some kind of deep wisdom that you just give it out on a regular basis. That always blows my mind. Thank you so much.

[@thejoker9201]

To be fair when the original Star Wars film was released I believe 1977 Most audiences were not as sophisticated about such things as military doctrines tactics and strategies This type of Syfy with it's at the time state of the art effects was enough to wow the audience into disbelief.

[@omegon2540]

For all they did to nerf thrawn in rebels, at least they credited him with tie defenders , some tactical ideas and used interdictors

[@MercenaryPen]

Alternatively, the Cantwell class ship could have opened fire with ion cannons the moment Luthen's haulcraft tried to escape

[@geoffreymowbray6789]

Imperial incompetence exists for plot purposes to make the heroes look good. Any student of military history can easily debunk most Star Wars stories of the Galactic Civil War. For example, military history of earth's wars history tells us the faulty notion that all that good imperials would not be fighting to the bitter end for the empire is blatantly wrong. People and wars are for more complicated than the simplistic narrative of Star Wars. The navies of planet earth began installing anti-aircraft guns on warships as early as 1915-1916. Even the most conservative and cash strapped navies responded quickly to the threat of aircraft and submarines in WW One.

[@ShadowSpect]

If the rebels didn't have the plot protection that's given to the "good guys" they would've been vaporized centuries ago

[@williamheath7058]

I love how the answer to every problemthe empirehad was just thrawn

[@timezerohour8864]

Its a good answer.

[@Cap-Archer]

I think the Empire had to manufacture TIE Advanced V1s and TIE Defenders, the latter being used in place of the TIE Interceptor. Why would it be too expensive to make 3 million TIE Defenders to replace TIE/ln.

[@redenginner]

Its partially an issue of the TIE/X2 & TIE/D being much more expensive on the logistics end compared to the TIE/LN or TIE/IN. More advanced systems means more time the fighter has to stay in a repair bay,which means you have to both buy more spares and more units to maintain the same level of (at least on paper) unit readiness. Which while the TIE/D might only be per unit 3x the cost of a TIE/LN,the TIE/D effectively costs 4-6x more then a TIE/LN when upkeep is factored in. Logistically speaking the TIE LN/IN are effectively the best peacetime airframe. Cheap,easy to maintain,and good enough to clip the occasional pirate’s wings. Good for keeping your aviators flying when you are focusing on long lead time items like battleships and cruisers. If an actual war with a peer power broke out variants like the TIE/D could easily be brought into mass production to replace the TIE/LN in frontline service. Essentially the Imperial military is prepped for fighting the clone wars, and this doesn’t factor in them having to fight rebels with both popular support and better equipment nor, the ideologically enforced incompetency of the officers,and all around post clone wars incompetence of the government.

[@Kit_the_Kitsune]

So hear me out... Tarkin was a rebel spy. 1: He created the Tarkin Doctrin, which not only made the imperial navy ineffective against the rebel fleet, but also due to the sheer iron fistedness of it also drove more people to become rebels 2: He destroyed Alderan, which turned countless people to the aid of the rebellion, including shaking the faith of even stormtroopers. 3: He sabotaged the defense of the Death Star, ensuring that the small snub fighters on approach would have a chance of actually destroying the station. He refused to leave to ensure no uppity 2nd in command would overrule his orders and make a decision to save the station.

[@marimcgee8379]

Not just Tie Fighters, a few Star Destroyers or Raiders as escorts to protect the Death Star.

[@the7observer]

A more streamlined desgined TIE similar to TIE striker chassis would be better for landing and logistics (no need for specialized landing infrastructure) and a smaller side profile. Adding a 360 rotating laser turrets top and bottom would make the speed even scarier since the TIE wouldn't need to perfectly align to take shots. The TIE lack of durability makes no sense: Training pilots takes a long time and losing one is much more expensive than say losing a stormtrooper

[@_WillCAD_]

The TIE's characteristics are based on the Japanese Zero from WWII. The Zero was considered the best fighter plane in the world at the beginning of the war - it was fast, maneuverable, well-armed, and had long range. At the outset of the war, very few Allied fighters could go toe-to-toe with a Zero and live to tell the tale. To get the speed and maneuverability, though, the Zero lacked any armor protection for the cockpit or engine, and lacked self-sealing fuel tanks, which made it prone to burn or explode when hit by incoming fire. The Allies developed both better planes and effective tactics against the Zero very quickly, however, eventually giving them air superiority in the Pacific theater. I see the TIE as the Star Wars equivalent of the Zero - a cheap, mass-produced fighter with great speed and maneuverability, but no shields or life-support for the pilot, making it difficult to hit, but easy to convert into a cloud of expanding gas when you did hit it. We know in retrospect that the TIE doctrine didn't work, just as we know the Zero doctrine didn't work for the Japanese Empire, but that's only with the benefit of hindsight.

[@kenle2]

The TIE/IN makes sense from the perspective of just having basic, fast, quick-to-build fighters that could take on the basic transports and lightly armed vessels most insurgents would be able to field before the X-Wing. While it does take a while to train a fighter pilot, remember the Empire had recruiting stations and academies on worlds with (collectively) BILLIONS of possible recruits at least. And with huge space industries being "nationalized" many of their trained employees would actually get a better employment deal by joining the Navy or Army starfighter corps. Most potential adversaries aren't going to be able to stand up to scores or hundreds of basic TIEs backed by the weapons on a Star Destroyer. Look at Scariff, the Rebels "won" by taking out two ISD's and retrieving the Death Star plans and causing the Empire to sacrifice their own Intelligence Base. They did, however, lose their only available cruiser-class capital ships, numerous frigates and MOST of their tougher, more heavily shielded starfighters. By Yavin, the Rebels send two reinforced squadrons of starfighters against the Death Star because that's all they have available following the loses at Scariff. I'd say the TIEs acquitted themselves fairly well from the Empire's limited perspective.

[@kamerondonaldson5976]

our blueprints and imperial engineers still exist even if the original factory designed to produce these starfighters is gone. in time they can be reconstructed.. unfortunately lord vader does not appreciate such setbacks and cuts funding.. so we are on our own.

[@Straswa]

Great work GenTech. Yeah having your fighters out on combat air patrol is vital to ensuring your warship's survival.

[@carsonstevensmusic8498]

Regarding the Battle of Yavin: "Forgive me for asking sir, but what good are snub fighters going to be against THAT?" "The Empire doesn't consider a small, one-man fighter to be a significant threat. Otherwise, they'd have a tighter defense." Were it not for the thermal exhaust port - which was "impossible, even for a computer!" to hit, the X-Wings would, in fact, have been completely useless against the Death Star. Once the Empire realized what they were shooting at, and why, they scrambled the TIEs to deal with it. So in this case I would forgive the Imperials for just sitting tight and waiting for the main base to come into range of the superlaser.

[@jeffreycarman2185]

5:32 the officer on the Cantwell Class Cruiser is, as Andor himself puts it “fat and satisfied” he can’t even imagine that a ship that size could pose any threat whatsoever to the Cruiser.

[@ebooksguyguy7149]

Honestly tie fighters could have all had droid brains, pilots only operating tie bombs or defenders

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

Thrawn stole the idea for the TIE Defender from a better Grand Admiral- Demetrius Zaarin who invented multiple advanced Starfighters. The TIE Avenger and Defender would have easily ended the Rebellion.

[@Grubnar]

Just the TIE Avenger would have been enough.

[@russellharrell2747]

Zaarin was a filthy traitor, but at least he wasn’t a rebel like Harkov.

[@mr.boomguy]

I love your fracing at 12:43. Confident commanders don't have time for politics

[@mattstorm360]

The imperial officers are arrogant and over confident. They think everyone will bow down to them because they are the empire. They can glass entire planets with their dreadnought style star destroyers meaning the sight of one would be enough to quell any rebellious worlds. Reminds me of a certain country who was so sure of its own abilities that it went to war with poor equipment and poor strategy because they saw themselves as all powerful and everyone would just give up the moment they rolled in only to be proven wrong. Those in the empire thought that the title gave them power, that the massive ships they commanded ruled, and the legions of soldiers would succeed... because it's the empire. How could they not?

[@Boringspy]

These imperial officers clearly slept through a class or two. Or… 30

[@Dewydidit]

They partied thru the academy on dad's credit card.

[@deeya]

I thought that we had settled on Imperial bureaucratic incompetence, way back when they didn't fire on the escape pod that C3P0 and R2D2 was on. I mean they were looking for stolen data, it stands to reason that it can only be transmitted along with lifeforms. And also because of the monthly laser budgets. I mean have you priced plasma shots lately?... (Yes, I stole that from Family Guy)

[@jaywerner8415]

That is one thing that kinda interesting about Star Wars fleet combat, they tend to keep their Strike Craft in the hanger till combat ensues. I guess no one in Star Wars has heard of the concept of "Combat Air Patrol" or Combat Space Patrol in this case. What is a Combat Air Patrol you ask? Its a detachment of a Carrier Vessels fighter craft that Patrols the area around the fleet. The Imperials also had DOZENS of Tie models that where at lest "on par" with Rebel Star Fighters, but they came too late to make a difference.

[@HolyknightVader999]

Once again, this idea that the Empire was failing is not supported by the facts, they were going to win anyways until Vader decided to play basketball with the Emperor. The Emperor's death caused his minions to go into Civil War to decide who succeeds him. New Republic historians note that if the Empire united against the Alliance after Endor, they could've smothered the New Republic before it was even born. Heck, if Palpatine retained Vader's loyalty and did not try to turn him against his kid on Endor, he'd still be alive, and the Empire would still be triumphant. He was going to win anyways, and it was his pettiness and arrogance with the Skywalkers which lost him his Empire and his life. The Empire literally lost ONLY because the Empire's leaders went into full Crisis of the Third Century mode instead of uniting to avenge old man Palpatine. If they did the latter, that great Alliance victory on Endor, as well as every major and minor victory the Rebels won, would've been worthless. And even then, the Empire nearly wins later on again and again. Under Thrawn, they nearly defeated the New Republic. Under Dark Empire Palpatine, they literally drove the New Republic from the core and only lost because some Imperial deep state yahoos poisoned the Emperor's stash of clone bodies. Under the Fel Dynasty, the Empire crushed the combined forces of the Jedi, the Alliance, and the Mandalorians. Even in the new canon, the First Order was winning most of its battles with the Resistance and the New Republic, to the point where some worlds even seceded from the New Republic, which included Coruscant. By the end of Episode IX, we hear that some worlds are rebelling against the FO, but we don't know for certain if they won. Literally, the Rebels won the battle, but the Empire won the war.

[@weishi9804]

It was like August put himself as bait in German forest with just 2 Legions.

[@HolyknightVader999]

@@weishi9804 And he got killed by Tiberius.

[@АлексейМомот-щ7о]

Canon New Republic suffers from plot-induced stupidity. First Order as seen in the movies can't possibly win every battle, they're portrayed as too incompetent.

[@HolyknightVader999]

@@АлексейМомот-щ7о EU New Republic was just as incompetent. They would've lost to Thrawn or Dark Empire Palpatine if it weren't for the Jedi or Carnor Jax, and they got more people killed by their incompetence against the Vong (365 trillion) than the Empire did by its outright malice.

[@macmcgee5116]

None of this is arrogance or incompetence... It's all plot armor. If the Empire had done things right...there would be no movies.

[@azeria1]

Whenever thrawn comes back he needs to have defenders with him

[@shakeeldakari3318]

Should have kept the V-wing

[@jaywerner8415]

Your not wrong.

[@Cpt_Boony_Hat]

I mean personally I favor the Z95 but yeah V-wings also work. Or maybe not have any point defense on your capital ships seriously cut down the ISDs heavy battery by 1/3 and have that energy be devoted to point defense

[@hiredgoon93]

It truly is astounding the Empire didn't immediately deploy a screen of TIEs as standard, boring procedure every time they arrived in any system out of hyperdrive. They had a standard procedure for dumping garbage before entering hyperdrive but not for a vital defense tactic for crying out loud!

[@reginaldshort8486]

One other thing idk if all the material for the Tie D came from Lothal but if not I would’ve conducted raids on mining and fuel sites supplying the factory with raw material. Hit and Hype attacks meant to gather resources and deprive the Empire was a key strategy for the Rebellion.

[@gooddog2001]

The Death Star was huge and like the Titanic it felt it was unstoppable. The Death Star only had a few tie fighters on it which it was intended for recon purposes only. A hand full of fighters taking out the Death Star was considered inconceiviable.

[@scoutman66]

The formidable TIE Advanced, the lightning fast TIE Interceptor, and then the nearly unmatched TIE Defender. And yet all of these technological marvels bleak in comparison to the power of shitty writing and plot armour. Well, that and the fact that a victory for the Alliance seems to be entirely dependant on how much of a fucking idiot Palpatine can be. Sometimes I'm having a hard time believing that this is the same guy that dismantled the political hierarchy of an entire galaxy all by himself.

[@hansmerker5611]

I would design a line of Star fighters called the supremacy class interceptors. In the aftermath of the Death Stars destruction, i would present the design to my superiors. Hopefully the design and my presentation would make an impact and production would proceed.

[@MrRobzillanj]

I think If director Krennic was still running the Death Star He would have reacted accordingly

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Yep if your advantage is to have more numbers then the enemy then always have more numbers then the enemy. Also I believe the epublic and rebels do have starfighters out at all times.

[@orokusaki1243]

Loopholes required by the story so the good guys have a chance to win. Else, the foot-hold would be quite impossible in this space fantasy/opera. Makes me think of Zahn's BoSS, and also of the chaincodes. Even Han, Luke, Chewie took out the security holo-cameras in the detention level for a reason, maybe. With that much surveillance/lockdown in play, unauthorized transport and off-the-grid/stealthy people would not be a thing. Yet, somehow that stuff only matters when its convenient to the story being told. Syril managed to have Andor's ship identified and tracked despite the thousands of arrivals and departures. And yet no security droids with moon boots at the under-staffed prison. All these things definitely make it seem like incompetence and arrogance, when under scrutiny. At least in RotJ, they had more budget so could add some TIE Fighter opposition. Its like the meme - after the heroes lose, the screen wipes and the end credits roll.

[@jacobschneibel2055]

Please do gun gungin weaponry and tactics

[@scottcarver7393]

The dome on Lothal had powerful shields that protected the whole city. Wouldn't Hera's attack against Lothal be thwarted simply by the empire raising the shields? We see in the season finale that the shields could protect the city from bombardment from a Star Destroyer.

[@viperson9818]

The empire have some of the best pilots and just never used them well. Heck the Death Star had some of the empire top aces and probably a vast majority of them wasn't deployed and ended up being killed.

[@hugoedelarosa]

The empire lost because they stopped using clones after the Republic ended.

[@Ragnarok6664]

What’s up with the meatbag fanboys? Clones are just meat drones, I’m more of a fan of making the standard TIE a droid fighter like in Dark Empire

[@waltciii3]

@@Ragnarok6664 because for some reason SW droids and computers are dumber than meatbags...

[@_the_Omega]

Quote" tie fighter ar intercepter" In the next seat" Tie interceptor: I am a joke to you?

[@Dazzle_Novak_]

I played SW Squadrons and have an understanding of how much TIE is a shit series. Managing imperial equipment is as unpleasant as possible because you seem to sit in a washing machine - a view from the cabin is no more than 60 degrees, and the absence of normal shields makes them more than goals at the shooting range. By putting a powerful quick-firing gun on Y-Wing, you can knock down 5 TIEs in one gulp. A-Wings can outmaneur interceptors and intercept them, and have 270 degree vision. TIE is the same as B-1, their outnumbering quantities is leveled by an insignificant quality. If separatists focused on the production of commando droids, they could've turn the republican army into dust. Of course, this was not profitable for Palps, but why he repeats the same mistakes in his imperial system is another question.

[@chadflanaganCFC]

Something that always bothered me more so with Tarkin, is the Empire has a utter lack of competence as Tarkin especially in this case fought in the Clone Wars so he should realize how ruthlessly efficient overwhelming numbers can be on a battlefield, ironically if the empire adopted a CIS approach to naval combat instead of building two big moon sized targets I have no doubt the rebellion wouldn't of won the galactic civil war.

[@Weffi76]

he did know, but he had nothing to say realy, even if it looked like he was in charge, Palpatine was the one who was in charge, and what he said goes

[@grey-agent9389]

an even more obvious example to me is what happened immediately after in the Last Jedi: they have an enormous battleship fleet lurching after the enemy cruiser group, and three fighters had been able to utterly wreck their fighter defenses. Why not just deploy the hornet swarms of fighters that were doubtless stored on the Supremacy and its escort group to utterly destroy the surviving cruisers?

[@philiponeill6903]

I always had in my head-canon that what we see of the Battle of Yavin was just the Rebel squadrons tasked with the run on the exhaust port, and that there were scores - if not hundreds - more higher up, running interference for Gold/Red/Green squadrons against the hundreds of TIE fighters that could be deployed by the Death Star. I mean, a single ISD could launch 72 TIEs...how many could the DS carry??? Yes, yes, I know the guy says "we cound thirty Rebel ships, yada yada yada," but again, my head-canon makes that the ones coming in low.

[@deepashtray5605]

The Death Star should have been the flagship of an entire naval fleet. Imagine how powerful it would have been supported by a squadron of Star Destroyers, much like a modern U.S. Navy carrier group.

[@ascensionindustries9631]

He could save himself from the rebels, but not from space whales. Tragic

[@reginaldshort8486]

A squadron of Tie Defenders cost about the same as a new CR90 and while the CR90 wasn’t a real military ship it could perform multiple peace time roles while with no one to fight the Tie D was mostly scouting and search and destroy. A danger of the Tie D for the Empire is for the pilot to defect taking an extremely expensive instrument of war to an enemy group that could possibly replicate the tech and produce at a dangerous scale.

[@_WillCAD_]

The delay in fighter deployment was merely a symptom of the Empire's main military weakness - depending on BIGGER, BIGGER, MORE, BIGGER instead of better or smarter. The Alliance went with better and smarter, and was able to defeat a numerically superior foe in many engagements throughout the war. Hell, they took out a Death Star, a SuperStardestroyer, and a number of ISDs at Endor with a smaller mixed fleet of ships that could never survive a one-on-one slugging match with an ISD. Because they were smarter.

[@oldtimefarmboy617]

You watch things like this and you realize that even if Palpatine was preparing an imperial fleet to fight the eventual Yuuzhan Vong invasion, they would have fared no better against them than they did against the rebels. No fleet no matter how large or powerful is better than the people commanding the fleets and the individual ships

[@kdkerr2]

Alan, how come the Death Star didn't have a force shield to keep the X-Wings from getting down into the Trench?

[@kenle2]

Actually, General Dodonna in the pilot's briefing says: :The target is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes." As we see the Clone Wars and other placed in SW, it's much easier to shield against lasers and blasters than physical objects when you have a large enough generator (the Droidekas). You probably couldn't shield an exhaust port for particles (tiny solids) since it had to let them out by design. Lowering particle (solid) shields every time a TIE or utility vessel had to fly across the surface of the Death Star would get pretty unwieldy.

[@SpanglyMoss]

Hope you see this your content is great

[@roadhouse6999]

I don't understand why the Arrester-class frigate didn't at least have a turret pointed at the ship it was arresting.

[@XronisFountoukidis]

How comes that Assault gunboats are never mentioned in any video? Were they only part of the x-wing and tie fighter games?

[@russellharrell2747]

Imperial fan boys believe only TIEs belong in the empire. But real Imperials know that the GUNBOAT was the GOAT. Sadly the only non-game appearances are just mentions, like the Technical Manual stating a complement of five GUNBOATS per ISD in the lead up to Hoth and Endor.

[@XronisFountoukidis]

@@russellharrell2747 as the only hyperdrive capable imperial craft before the TIE Def. one might think that the imperials would use it for much more missions in the SW universe... but still..

[@russellharrell2747]

@@XronisFountoukidis there were plenty of hyper-capable craft in the empire from the founding. The empire inherited all GAR and CIS ships, vehicles and armaments. TIE scouts and similar ships were designed and fielded in the 19 years between the end of the clone wars and the battle of Yavin. That being said, the Starwing is a capable multi role fighter craft that complements the various TIE designs and is only truly replaced by the TIE Defender, which was a ridiculously advanced starfighter that is simultaneously awesome and unbelievable, similar to a Gundam in a sea of grunt Mobile suits. The GUNBOAT should have been more prominent in media and games since the early 90s since it’s basically the Impetial Y-wing but better in every way.

[@CloneScavengerVulpin8389]

Tie fighter pilots: we want more flight time. Imperial officers: noooo!

[@FunkMasterJunk]

Did the Tie Defender make its first appearance in "Tie Fighter"?

[@gasparayakos8215]

Yes

[@yahaaa1343]

Maybe the Empire was just suffering from a bad case of "defund the stormtroopers", luckily for the rebelion.

[@ForestRaptor]

Quite the opposite

[@yahaaa1343]

@@ForestRaptor They can be hired but completely lack the funding for proper training to anything else other than shoot people. Buying a Tie figther is one thing but the pilot need hours of fligth to be effective, same goes with officers and military doctrines.

[@waltciii3]

But Stormtroopers cant fly...

[@Sephiroth144]

@@waltciii3 You're not throwing them hard enough.

[@motherteresa8418]

How's the rebellion insurgency in Brazil going

[@KnightsWithoutATable]

I loved the Tie Defender in every game it was in. It was a great fighter. Had the Empire spent the resources that were spent on the Deathstar on rolling out the Tie Defender and then used squadrons of them based on capital ships to extend their power projection, they could have easily crushed the Rebellion and controlled the Galaxy. Fighter pilots, the hangar space, and supply chain for the fighter craft and carrier ship to move them all have huge supply chains along with training for the pilots, so they are expensive to have them be disposable. True, some swarm Ties for scouting and for screening or maybe just police functions they are perfect, but for military missions, the Tie is hot garbage.

[@tucmakukla]

TBH lack of standing CAP seems to be the problem of all Star Wars factions. Or fascination with frontal attacks and close range fighting even by factions that have superior ranged capabilities.

[@stevedenis8292]

The use of logical tactics would mean a very short and different story .

[@АлексейМомот-щ7о]

Idk, Thrawn trilogy is whole three books! That's not short. It's kinda satisfying reading Thrawn figure out problems.

[@theawesomeman9821]

Hyper-Drive technologies sounds more cost effective than investing in two vulnerable Death Stars.

[@matthewneuendorf5763]

The TIE Defender could have been the F-22 Raptor of the Imperial Navy, not a Space Superiority fighter, but a Space Dominance fighter. It would have been a ride truly worthy of the best of the Imperial Naval Academy pilots.

[@RexTenebrarum]

It was swarming with ties under construction but not in action. 😆

[@banebeard]

What's even dumber is that the falcon got passed by a patrol fighter right before they saw the Death Star. So they were using actual patrols at least until that point and then Tarkin decided they didn't need em anymore

[@russellharrell2747]

The sentry TIEs encountered by the Falcon on escaping the DS were also part of presumed standard patrols that created a perimeter around the battle station

[@Damocles54]

Even Galactica always had a BARCAP of Vipers up at all times...

[@InitialiseDisk]

I really believe that the Tie Fighters should have had some sort of aim assist that would automatically lock them onto the target. Maybe expensive but much more effective than what they had.

[@Dilllonm]

The US military often will deploy forces when they probably are not needed for training purposes, I’m sure they could deploy ties to count as training sessions costing no more than normal

[@Wedgekree]

And that's the contrast. The TIE Defender/E does not remotely meet normal Imperial doctrine. Even if it had been further deployed it was unlikely to see any form of mass production. You wouldn't see huge changes in Imperial fighter doctrine even with it. Maybe some individual units that were elite would have them and utilize them effectively, but they would never see huge numbers. So perhaps in small engagements they can make a difference for fleets which have them /and/ a willingness to deploy them, but little changes thanks to Imperial bureaucracy, doctrine, and arrogance.

[@jacobschneibel2055]

Please do gungin

[@jaws666]

Only the tie fighter pilots under Vaders personal command were deployed during the battle of yavin.

[@Sephiroth144]

Which makes me wonder why he didn't head to the pilot's ready room and just go "Fly out there or die in here."

[@jaws666]

@@Sephiroth144maybe he did....just because we dont see it in the movie doesnt mean it didnt happen....i like to think he actually did do it.

[@jaws666]

@@Sephiroth144 i like to think he did

[@Sephiroth144]

@@jaws666 "So, why were there so few TIE Fighters deployed, Lord Vader?" "I... might've been a little aggressive in telling them to get to thei-" "You killed them all when one guy asked a question?" "I killed them all when one guy asked a question."

[@overacuppakavh]

The Empires problem wasn't their equipment. It was their corruption and arrogance. Remove even just the arrogance. You have an unstoppable force.

[@blakeetter280]

If thrawn had gotten his tie defender(?) program approved the rebels wouldn’t have stood a chance.

[@Phoenixoflife56]

A lot of what the Empire did didn’t make sense especially around naval combat. Not only did commanders treat the Tie fighter like a precious resource but even the recruiting for pilots for the Tie fighter not make sense because they intentionally recruited the best pilots they could find for a disposable line of ships which is a waste of skilled manpower. They didn’t even give special forces troops like inferno squad a better fighter than the Tie fighter.

[@armorer94]

The Imperials weren't incompetent. They were arrogant and contemptuous.

[@mwd888]

Yep, to pile on along with everyone else, if the Imperial's had regularly sent out combat air patrols, especially when entering enemy territory would have made a difference in the outcome of these engagements.

[@Crabb90]

This is what I don't understand about the Empire. If they already had a fully functional navy from the Republic infrastructure, why did they have to change anything? Why would they re-organize their navy to make it LESS functional?