George RR Martin on Tolkien Imitators

Previous Video - George RR Martin on Tony Soprano: • George RR Martin on To...
Full Interview: • In Conversation With.....
A Song of Ice and Fire / Game of Thrones Author George R. R. Martin on Tolkien Imitators

[@bmyrick2846]

Ravens in Tolkien's works were good, especially to the dwarves. I think he is getting the Crows of Saruman and the Ravens of the Dwarves mixed up.

[@jakobschoning7355]

Indeed. The crebain are also controlled by Saruman, while the Ravens act of their own accord (don't know if you say that) so I don't think that its fair to say that Tolkien sees them as ill omens

[@elephantchessboard9060]

I think he isn't directly referring to tolkien there, but to what followed tolkien. You know ravens are symbols for evil witches and all that

[@bmyrick2846]

@@elephantchessboard9060 I see ravens as messengers, not a symbol of witches. Again, I believe that crows are better represented as bad omens. Nothing against crows tho. They're pretty smart

[@craigcassidy6078]

@@elephantchessboard9060 ravens were used by Tolkien from norse mythology..

[@gilmer3718]

Exactly. The King of the Ravens came and spoke to Thorin Oakenshield in the Hobbit.

[@squamish4244]

“J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is in fact standing on Mt. Fuji.” - Terry Pratchett

[@rcb3921]

Hilarious to find that GRRM's very complaint about the idea of Tolkien imitators is itself a bit of stolen imagery from the innovative genius of Sir Terry Pratchett.

[@Joe-n6b]

Pratchett.....pure filler books

[@swehumorofficial]

Hence why I much prefer pre-Tolkien fantasy. Those works felt much more original and imaginative than most of what came after. Some of them are also better than Tolkien's writings. In fact, Tolkien himself called his own work a bland imitation of the previous fantasy author William Morris.

[@Joe-n6b]

@@swehumorofficial shut up mate dont be bitter you can't create anything better than tolkien....you're not that special 🤣😅😅

[@Joe-n6b]

@@swehumorofficial bitter much 😅😅😅

[@omegacardboard5834]

Guys there’s a bit of a misunderstanding here, I believe he is talking about the imitators of Tolkien simplifying his work into those basic tropes, not Tolkien himself

[@neilelliott263]

I think he’s talking about Tolkien as well. He used examples from Tolkien and seemed to suggest the imitators are following in his foot steps. Despite his ‘second to none admiration for Tolkien’, I honestly think he doesn’t really get the novels, and sees them as this childish caricature. People are obsessed now with ‘complex stories’, but Lord of the Rings has a very complex philosophy behind it, and complex symbolism, which Martin and the modern critics just write off (the orcs are a good example).

[@theboredengineer2612]

@@neilelliott263 1:50 He specifically says that Tolkien was able to make things work that lesser fantasy writers couldn't. He's criticizing the imitators, not Tolkien.

[@neilelliott263]

@@theboredengineer2612 He’s said in the past that while he loves Tolkien, he thinks his stories are too simple for reality, and his own stories are in a way a response to that, he’s deliberately tried to make a fantasy story more complex than Tolkien’s. He said that it worked for Tolkien because it did, and he thinks LotR is well written, but he still views it as simple, which I would disagree with.

[@dlaniganohara]

@@neilelliott263 if he didn't have any criticism for Tolkien hed probably just be another imitator

[@theboredengineer2612]

@@neilelliott263 That's fair. For the record, I agree with you that there's more to LotR than most give it credit for.

[@tcschenks]

You know Sauron was a pretty handsome dude in the earlier ages when he was corrupting everyone. Orcs were Elves corrupted by Shadow/Melkor/Morgoth…so it was already turned on it’s head.

[@afiqnoorhisham]

Haven’t read The Lord of the Ring make me wonder. Is Sauron Brad Pitt level handsome or Bieber handsome?

[@justaguy7820]

​@@afiqnoorhisham Chris Hemsworth handsome.

[@dcooper86]

Yes, but I think the point George was making here is that a lot of fantasy writers took some of the tropes, but left out all the ambiguity or nuance. So you get cliched ugly dark lords and such. Tolkien was a master, and Martin reveres him, but a lot of his contemporary fantasy writers from the 70's on were kind of.... well not great, that's for sure.

[@troygrindley3793]

And the sons of Feanor were all good boys too.

[@cbalan777]

@@afiqnoorhisham All the illustrations I've seen tend to make Sauron look Elven.

[@WreckItRolfe]

They even imitate him by finishing their stories!

[@nottheonlydreamer9512]

The greatest element of Tolkien's writing is the way he uses character archetypes, in a way like an ancient mythological tale. It is simple but utterly brilliant. To do that while being original requires the mind of a genius

[@firebirdcas]

Yeah, like a very close to biblical story. You know: Taking the burdon of all evil in the world and dragging it up a mountain to destroy it (Frodo / Jesus) , the king who raises the dead and heals the sick (Aragorn / Jesus), Evil working through the ring on Sam by temping him though his own desires (Satan / Sauron) etc.

[@danielcopeland3544]

I can remember Sir Terry Pratchett, that other great English-language fantasy innovator born in 1948, saying almost identical things about "the people who were borrowing from the people who were borrowing from the people who were borrowing from Tolkien". No lover of fantasy disrespects Tolkien, but his recyclers got pretty boring before Pratchett's comedy and Martin's grimdark revivified the genre. Now we're starting to see a wave of Martin imitators, whereas I haven't seen many people trying to follow Pratchett -- possibly because Pratchett hasn't had a really attention-grabbing screen adaptation yet. Since other commenters are being a bit discourteous, let me say this. Tolkienian cosmic good and evil is the best vehicle for expressing certain themes; Martin-esque grimdark moral ambiguity for others; Pratchettian comedy-of-the-mundane for still others. There is room in fantasy for more than one mode of expression. If you like one and not the others, that's absolutely fine. If you're claiming only one counts as proper fantasy -- grow up.

[@cbalan777]

The people copying Martin, to me, are imitating someone being intentionally subversive and contrarian, which is probably why the copies are so shallow. Martin is actually passionate about his views, where as the copy cats are just mechanically and dispassionately reproducing him.

[@danielcopeland3544]

@@cbalan777 Well, the parallel statement is also more or less true of Tolkien and his imitators.

[@JonnyRobbie]

> Pratchett hasn't had a really attention-grabbing screen adaptation yet. Oh, than god. As a huge fan of Pterry, I'm more then grateful for those direct-to-tv BBC adaptations with a nice charm to it than an ugly hollywood abomination.

[@tlz124]

Did you copy this from something or write it yourself? Either way, thanks. I like this comment

[@brettd2308]

Concerning Pratchett imitators, I think at least part of it is market-driven, particularly in the US. His books are popular and I'm sure there are plenty of people out there trying to imitate them - I know I have and I've seen similar works on fanfic sites. But comedic fantasy in general sells much less than epic fantasy, so less of it is published. The first novel I ever got close to traditionally publishing was more or less a Discworld ripoff, my writing being heavily influenced by Pratchett at the time, but it wound up not closing the deals because "funny fantasy is a harder sell". We see a lot of Tolkien imitators (and now Martin imitators) because consumers eat it up.

[@TheNegativeDude]

The sad thing is that the Game of Thrones TV show eventually turned into exactly that. Night King was pure evil. No redeeming qualities. Nothing. Just destruction. I know hes not in the books, but it just goes to show how D&D completely missed what George was trying to do with the show.

[@masterofnone8400]

I think he was referring to the people in GOT, even the bad guys Jamie, the hound, turn out to have some good in them, his characters were incredibly complex and true to real life

[@adamnesico]

Night king isn’t human, is an alien.

[@TheAkrillion]

@@masterofnone8400 and yet, the show writers threw it all away so he could turn into a pool of blood under a rock just so he could bone his sister for the nth time.

[@oOPPHOo]

You can critique the later GoT seasons for a lot of things, but critiquing the Night King for being nothing but pure evil is also missing the point. He's not a character. You can make a fine and complex story about how three people will act before a volcano erupts. The Night King is the volcano. A force of nature. The volcano doesn't need complex motivations or redeeming qualities . It can serve as the setting and catalyst for the actions of the actual characters in the show. Say the later seasons lacked or watered down those characters, but don't blame a barely personified force of nature for not having redeeming qualities.

[@joehernandez9563]

@@oOPPHOo A barely personified force of nature... Like a dark lord? It's the same thing. Evil/destruction that exists solely to motivate the heroes.

[@gaiusbaltar8915]

Yeah, true. But the thing about tolkien is that he was beyond masterful in his execution. His work has been imitated so often that by now, pretty much everything fantasy is just one dead horse trope stacked onto another. And yet, you can still read The Lord of the Rings today, and it is as fresh as if the whole genre has never existed.

[@SpottedHares]

Or in some regrades people working extremely hard to not imitate Tolkien. His shadow is large you really have to work to not be in it.

[@Grandmaster-Kush]

@Thomas Grey You telling me you skip the poems and songs my dude?

[@godofimagination]

​@Thomas Grey I'll have to agree with you. When I started reading them, I legitimately wondered whether or not I got the wrong books.

[@miscellaneousgoblin910]

(Gains Ballard) I respectfully but heartily disagree. A ton of amazing fantasy has come out since Tolkien’s reformation of the genre. Sanderson among others come to mind.

[@henrikfitch4017]

@@miscellaneousgoblin910 Dude I fucking love Sanderson. I think his books fall into what I call 'middle fantasy'. High fantasy is the classic multiple races, dark lords, good and evil, prophecies etc... Low fantasy is gritty realism with maybe a few hints of mysticism/ one or two magical elements. Sanderson presents his worlds in such a unique way. Magic in them is almost a Science, a force of nature that some people can wield. It has clearly defined rules and limitations. He also talks at length about real life aspects like politics, economics, tax laws, social structure, and just writes in such a way that every action has a believable impact. But at the same time he also has things like prophecies and 'chosen ones', though he usually subverts those tropes.

[@EvilSandwich]

This is why I think more people should read Ursula K Le Guin. Because she's one of the few fantasy authors that managed to break out of tolkien's shadow and make a fleshed out and convincing world that felt thoroughly unique. I feel like George RR Martin, if he hasn't read it already, would absolutely love the Earth-Sea books. In fact, more people need to read Ursula K Le Guin. She was absolutely brilliant.

[@TheGiantRobot]

Yes, I think Earth-Sea is one of the greatest fantasy stories ever. The character arc and the way she explained magic was so powerful.

[@greggorsag9787]

100%. LeGuin is great. I think she never quite attained legendary status because she writes “smaller” than Tolkien did, with the exception of elements in the “The Farthest Shore (IMO the best of the Earthsea books). Epic fantasy gets the most attention.

[@Science_Chad]

One way to stay immune to criticism is to just never finish your story (=

[@mattmccann1850]

CHILL BRO!!!!! 😅😂😭

[@Science_Chad]

In the words of Chris Brown, “I don’t see how you can hate from outside the club, you can’t even get in. Haha. Legooo.”

[@Flackon]

Says the person making a barely veiled criticism at Martin's working pace

[@Science_Chad]

@@Flackon if you believe there’s work being done on those novels, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[@NevaehCyanide]

@@Science_Chad Damn. You straight up spitting fire there.

[@GreatOldOne9866]

It’s definitely not easy to write a unique story.

[@piecrumbs9951]

You can understand all the intracacies of structural story telling and narrative theory and still never have the ability to create a good story. It really is a talent and requires a creative mind. A creative mind and a large amount of knowledge on storytelling are the ingredients for a compelling narrative.

[@JohnSmith-is4uu]

Yea especially since he cannot finish it. What a lazy arse

[@cbalan777]

@@piecrumbs9951 You forgot the most important thing. Money. If you spend all day at your day job and come home exhausted, you aren't going to have much time for writing. I often wonder if the greatest writer is out there somewhere working a dead end job because they can't get the support they need to write a book.

[@piecrumbs9951]

@@cbalan777 An interesting thought. Many great writers of our time were dirt poor, I should point out. While money is not a necessity it would be a lie to say that it doesn't help.

[@birgittabirgersdatter8082]

@@cbalan777 even exhausted people who work long hours can find the time to write. BTDT. If writing is your dream, your passion, 1 hour a week can get you started and, if applied consistantly, can get your book written. Writing a book is relatively easy, getting it published and printed is quite another.

[@johnfaulk7775]

The one who wore white was one of the most evil in Tolkien’s trilogy. Not to mention Wormtongue, Denethor, Boromir, Isildur, Gollum and Theodin were all complex characters and had choices to make for good or for evil. Frodo and Bilbo could also have been turned. I think to minimize the complexity and breadth of Tolkien’s writing is self aggrandizing and a mistake.

[@RictusHolloweye]

I agree, but I didn't detect any disrespect from GRRM.

[@weslleyfj]

He was clearly referring to the tropes of fantasy, not Tolkien himself.

[@rrraynoorrr]

The complexity is relatively minor. With all due respect to Tolkien, I personally prefer the much more complex and less cliched characters of grrm. I can relate with them better.

[@happyllama1160]

@@rrraynoorrr I mean Game of Thrones characters are cliched already but wait a few years and if Martin is right about his copycats you’ll say you can’t read GOT because of how cliched and typical the tropes are. LOTR created the tropes, they were brand new back then.

[@roguewasbanned4746]

@@RictusHolloweye nah he just disagrees with how Tolkien writes. Sure he has some real fat nerd takes though

[@Micolashcage1]

Interesting, that must be why George RR Martin has deliberately compared “the others” to Sidhe, or elves. Since he claims that tolkein generally made elves good guys, he turned that notion on its head. The others in the book are described as elegantly beautiful creatures In white

[@CodySvsTheNet]

Might be but directly the elves are the Valarians/Targaryens, but their beauty makes them incestuous and crazy, and their knowledge/magic destroys them.

[@mousc460]

Are the "others" the bad guys? They are enemies to the humans, who are quite destructive themselves. But, there is no obvious cause or reason given that drives the "others".

[@imbarmstrong]

@@CodySvsTheNet I think of Valyrians as Moorcock Melnibeanans (sp). Dragonlords and sorcerers

[@countravid3768]

I would say that is a big misconception about Tolkien’s elves, that they are good, they were as grey as people, some better and some worse. I think of Maeglor, and Faenor, or maeglin as the more evil of elves. Generally the sons of faenor are complex characters, doing bad things for the greater good.

[@sirien.neiris]

He might turned that around, but actually he does follow the same logic. Black is "bad", because it blends with darkness of the night (or underground) - which scares people, it makes the enemy (or thief, murderer etc.) harder to spot. Others operate in north - being white there in the snow and ice (and snowing and snow storms) is like being black in the night. Literally like polar bears, for example. None of this has anything (or just a very little) to do with real-world racial issues or whatever, there is a solid rational logic behind this.

[@nailfelagund7508]

Tolkien definitely wrote conflicting characters. See: Feanor, Turin Turambar, Thorin son of Thror, Boromir, Curufinwe, Elu Thingol, to name a few. This idea that Tolkien is all about good guys good bad guys bad is simply a misunderstanding of the lore.

[@andrewlamb3585]

No one reads Tolkien, that's the problem. They just watched the films and left it at that. I totally agree with you 👍

[@rrraynoorrr]

Not complex enough to mirror real people. Besides the vast majority are either good or bad.

[@rrraynoorrr]

@@andrewlamb3585 The reason people don't read Tolkien is because, as great as he is with world building, his obsession with detailing every tiny (unnecessary?) thing in the environment takes away from his story telling. I'm sure he's great in many aspects but surely storytelling should take precedence?

[@nailfelagund7508]

@@rrraynoorrr Yeah, because we need from fantasy writers to portray various personality types... there is a reason it is called "epic". The stories are about eternal struggles, not about your average Joe's problems.

[@happyllama1160]

Martin is just an idiot who has no clue what he’s talking about. Ursula Le Guin is a famous example of an incredibly influential fantasy and scifi writer who is nothing like Tolkien. As I said he’s an idiot who think he’s a genius but he’s just riding on the backs of better writers just like all the people be criticises in this video

[@SolusBatty]

0:25 is that a sound of a live chicken?

[@EM-vw7im]

Idk why there is such a push for realism in fantasy. I love realistic fantasies, don't get me wrong but people seem to think(if you read various discussions on KZbin or other sites)there isn't room for both more relastic/gritty fantastic in Martin style and more traditional heroic fantasy. In the ideal world there would be all kinds of takes on the fantasy genr, not every author following the same structure because of a fad.

[@Cinomod6066]

Honestly I prefer more fantasy style of fantasy books than Martin's style almost 100% of the time. I'm not a big fan of game of thrones because it's always depressing everyone dies and everyone is an asshole in their own way shape or form very little fantasy elements to it as far as magic or questionable things Comparaed to other works and such. That's just me tho when things are too "realistic" I just get bord.

[@flynntom8057]

Tolkiens works isn't realistic aesthetically but it does have a lot of messages relating to life itself, one of the reasons he's so timeless.

[@advogadododiabo6940]

I believe that in current days, with so much exposure an individual can get, because of social media and etc. there is a fundamental fear of being judged and harassed because of your art and what it represents, in this case it woud be the fear of being seen as a childish/not serious author if you don't follow the gritty mainstream approach. On other perspective, could be something like "how dare you create a escapist fantasy with so many bad things going on in the world right now?" (I'm not saying that tolkien is purely escapist, but i think that's how people would judge it if it was released today) Also I think that is one of the reasons why anime is so popular nowadays, many of them push for sincere takes on matters like friendship, dreams, good vs evil, effort...

[@neothechosenone1502]

Yeah I agree with you. People don't like Star Wars because of how realistic it is! Dragon Ball Z didn't capture the imagination of several generations by having a grounded story with realistic dialogue! Yet I find so many authors these days want to fill their works with PTSD and depression thinking that will make their stories great. People don't seem to respect or understand what made these classic stories so great.

[@neongenesis7236]

I prefer believable over realistic.

[@Ivo_Core]

George RR Martin needs an eternity to attain a simple 1% of the epicness that Tolkien was, is, and will remain.

[@5erazoR]

They had quite different life experience. Tolkien faced real life - horror and war. He is writting quests of meaning. Martin lived in a more peaceful world and is seeking life experience. When writers try to do Tolkien like saga, it is a bit hollow - it requires more than imagination to write the lord of the rings. They will probably write more intresting books inspiring Martin, but I fear we will get bored quickly with the : sex, war, dragons and 50 side arcs story ...

[@williamcook391]

Alot of people forget that he was at the battle of the somme the horrors he saw first hand no modern writer could ever experience something close to that.

[@cbalan777]

@@williamcook391 Interesting, because when you suggest to artists that a lot of the best art comes from people who have suffered they tend to balk at the idea.

[@AnonymousAnonposter]

George is unironically a spoiled boomer, Tolkien was writing, teaching and rising his children at the same time while doing extra jobs for money.

[@emmaphilo4049]

@@williamcook391 he also was an orphan. To me LOTR is a book of someone who went through stuff and wanted to value the positives because he knew the negatives too well. A very romantic soul that knew pain and therefore valued peace and simple values.

[@SilverDragoon7395]

To be fair no one gets tired of Dragons.

[@RSRS920]

'It is a brutal world you created. People die...' This must be the biggest understatement in history

[@IDieHardForever]

She's lame af

[@mithrane]

To quote the Epic Rap Battles of History of Martin vs Tolkein - "We all know the world is full of chance and anarchy! So, yes, it's true to life for characters to die randomly, But newsflash: the genre's called fantasy! It's meant to be unrealistic, you myopic manatee!"

[@MrTeniguafez]

"All your bad guys die, and your good guys survive! We can tell what's gonna happen by page and age five!"

[@15thobserver]

@@MrTeniguafez Boromir would like to know your location.

[@adamnesico]

@@15thobserver Boromir fell to temptation

[@adamnesico]

Thats part of the fantasy of Tolkien, there good deeds have good consecuences. Is a valid aproach to fantasy. Martin too has his own predictability, any character that could bring stability and end the conflict dies.

[@omegacardboard5834]

@@MrTeniguafez Well yeah, we like seeing the good guys win, it’s part of our nature that we like the heroes and see then go on a journey and succeed because then we imitate that. Plus it’s more complex than that anyways

[@brewmasterwayne]

He can be as critical of Tokien’s imitators as he wants, but at least they finish their stories.

[@stockton1856]

Man is talking about Tolkien impersonators when he nabbed the "R. R." From Tolkien

[@octapusxft]

I was looking for this comment. The GRR martin needs to get off his high horse and go finish his own books instead of wasting the last few years he has while loligaging

[@vegemarkr4582]

George Raymond Richard Martin . its just kind of his name. maybe he got the idea from tolkin but i do not think that it makes him a impersionator writing wise. His books, like them or not are one of a kind.

[@elektrik_exekutioner6822]

How else are you going to shorten George Raymond Richard Martin?

[@found6393]

@@elektrik_exekutioner6822 George Martin. Because normal people, who aren't trying to crib off of someone else's rep, tend to treat their own middle names like irrelevant after thoughts. Or did you think the likes of Tom Clancy, Brian Sanderson, Dean Koontz, and George Orwell just did not have middle names at all?

[@elektrik_exekutioner6822]

@@found6393 I do not have middle names at all. Also "George Martin" seems to be a prominent music producer.

[@gonzaloarellano]

Usually those Tolkien imitators finish writing their books 😂

[@diegonatan6301]

"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless - while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors - like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow - but it would have been just that. Not worth doing." J.R.R. Tolkien on why he didn't write "A Song of Ice and Fire".

[@adamnesico]

Link to that, or u are troling?

[@ricebix]

@@adamnesico Tolkien died in 71 lol he probably didn't even know grrm existed

[@adamnesico]

@@ricebix Soi&f wasnt written in Tolkien life, but he is saying that Tolkien was starting a story eith an amoral background. Wanted to know what f truth.

[@Motofanable]

@@adamnesico Yes, story is called The New Shadow

[@diegonatan6301]

@@adamnesico copy the quote and google it as it is, you are going to find it in many places. Obviously he is talking about the New Shadow, not ASOIAF, but both have the same essence, even though GRRM's work is probably much more edgier than what Tolkien would write.

[@justinwillingale2086]

Tolkien was a genius nothing compares to his works but he never boasted about that he allowed his work to speak for itself

[@Ingeld]

“ Hmmm, Tolkien had Black Riders and I need to be different. I know, White Walkers! I am so innovative.” Seriously, Tolkien’s world operates in the realm of myth, legend and fairy tale; that’s what makes its so powerful and evocative. If I want realism, I will read history. Our current aesthetic equates realism with good. But that is not some kind of literary truth. It is an aesthetic.

[@kaoutherguelmame9572]

Saruman wore white and strider wore black. Tolkien wins

[@andym87]

"You're a pirate, you even stole my 'RR'."

[@richardroberts6021]

Martin sure knows a lot about the latest works by young fantasy writers for a guy who's spending all his time writing Winds of Winter🤔

[@leostales2681]

In all fairness to George, reading is a very important habit for writer's to get into as is being familiar with your genre.

[@Predated2]

Lots of reasons to read other works: writers block and needs to get away to find some inspiration. Created a situation without a current solution that isnt deus ex machina and looking at other works(while also rereading your own work) helps finding a connection you didnt see yet.

[@adamnesico]

@@Predated2 George has written an entire new trilogy. I guess that his blocking comes from his own words: I lose interest in any historywhose ending I know. So he simply isnt intrested in the story anymore. Or if he cant put Daenerys out of Essos, let her stay there, it would be a cool way of subvert expctations, and show how peoples plans and aspirations change with life.

[@alphanerd7221]

@@leostales2681 Writers purposely avoid reading in their own genre all the time to avoid copying others.

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

2:30 yeah, I see you, lady!

[@gsimon123]

I'd encourage everyone looking for a good happy medium perhaps between Tolkien and Martin's worlds is Stormlight Archives. That series is amazing. It has depth like Tolkien but isn't afraid to dive into darker subject matter as well without becoming obscenely bleak or morose. It captures the fun elements of fantasy on a massive scale that is accepted by the people within the world, while also trying to ground the magical fantastical elements while still showing how humanity might actually behave in such a world.

[@Pogobro]

I tried it and its too anime for my taste tbh

[@cardinalearth5272]

@@Pogobro same. I felt like I was reading a video game.

[@fea365y]

One thing that has always bothered me is this issue that Tolkien's universe is simplified to good versus evil and darkness against light, and that there is no complexity or nuance in Tolkien's stories or characters, but anyone who has read Silmarillion knows it is quite like that, and that there are extremely complex characters, the greatest example is Feanor, the character that is described as being practically the perfect elf, but due to events during his life he became an embittered and violent person consumed by rage and pain. Besides that, there's the relationship of humans and the attraction for power, the dwarves, and their desire for gold and precious stones. Also to break this one that evils are ugly and dark, the good is just white and light, you have Sauron that disguised itself in a beautiful elf in bright white clothes to corrupt humans and elves, in addition to many other things. Now about this ridiculous discussion that Tolkien was racist. Orcs are just orcs not an allegory for black people, because Tolkien hated allegories, in addition, orcs were elves corrupted by Melkor. I think it's very lazy of him to draw these conclusions and have that kind of argument, without first analyzing Tolkien's work, and I'm not attacking Martin at all because I'm a fan of his work, he brought very well-written and different fission to the fantasy universe, I just disagree with him here.

[@tonybaker1268]

Yeah Martin way oversimplified Tolkien

[@astrovarius543]

I love in Tolkien's writings how Orcs are twisted and corrupted beings, made from elves and men. I think it's fantastic and not just for being interesting idea, but the implication of how evil turns men into monsters. Orcs in Tolkien's world aren't their own race like elves/humans/dwarves, they're an expression of ultimate evil and corruption. A lot of western fantasy nowdays have Orcs who simply exist as part of the world's ecosystem like elves (which is fine), but Tolkien's Orcs are really something else entirely. Another reason why the African allegory, regarding Tolkien, is nonsense. Can't speak for all fantasy Orcs, but most also seem to be mimicking Norse Vikings rather than African tribals, as the Outrage squad like to suggest they represent.

[@omegacardboard5834]

I believe he’s actually talking about Tolkien imitators simplifying Tolkien’s work into those basic things not Tolkien himself

[@crow__bar]

I think its very lazy of you to draw these conclusions and have this kind of arguement, without analyzing what GRRM meant. He's not saying "Tolkien only wrote about good vs evil". He's saying that that's what the imitators took from Tolkien and turned into the clichés we see today, and that he wanted to move away from that.

[@fea365y]

​@@crow__bar Sorry but you didn't get it, he's mostly talking about Tolkien imitators but also Tolkien himself, so much so that he says at the time 1:50 where he says a lot of these tropes used by Tolkien that worked for him, but His imitators' hands have become bad clichés. As I said before, I'm not attacking Martin because I like his books a lot, but rather disagreeing with him because he doesn't seem to have an understanding of the Tolkien universe, at least in this video. But he admires him, as he said in the video because his books have a lot of Tolkien influence as well as all the post Tolkien fantasy that has a direct or indirect influence.

[@TheGiantRobot]

The Hobbit might be my favorite book of all time. One of the things I loved so much about it was that everyone was human, both good and bad. Gandalf had a temper and was deceitful and manipulative to Bilbo from the start, getting him to go on an adventure he would likely be killed in. The elves were mean spirited and locked the dwarves up indefinitely, the dwarves were not always adult or fair, the goblins felt the need to justify their evils as being trespassed, one of the trolls wanted to be nice to Bilbo, and in the end everyone but Bilbo was ready to go to war for gold.

[@emmaphilo4049]

Cool analysis :) I enjoyed it

[@TheGiantRobot]

@@emmaphilo4049 Thanks :)

[@TNTspaz]

Their background is the exact color of the youtube black background. Looks trippy as hell

[@alanjamesh.zamorano1677]

Does that mean they're sitting in the KZbin limbo?

[@MrATN800]

"The Dark Lord is stirring and his minions are coming out"... Uh... the white walkers ?

[@goldenspiral6008]

In the books the Night King wasn´t a thing. At least not in the same way. There was a character with a silimar title, but it isn´t even a White Walker.

[@elektrik_exekutioner6822]

The white walkers have no overlord though.

[@crow__bar]

GRRM: *talks about how Tolkien imitators only took the most basic parts of Tolkiens writings and turned them into cliches without any depth, not paying attention to the complexities of Tolkiens work* This comment section: "omg hurr durr GRRM doesn't know what Tolkien was about"

[@omegacardboard5834]

Ikr no one seemed to notice he was talking about Tolkien imitators not Tolkien

[@f.ah.c2114]

I payed real attention: he is referring to “TOLKIEN’S TROPES”; if what he means is the rip offs specifically, he expressed it poorly, since it comes across a criticism to LOTR’s themes.

[@hannibalburgers477]

Dude comments does not critisize his opinions about imitators, they are critisizing his opinions about tolkien himself Edit: Btw what is Bran the Broken's tax policy?

[@larb6314]

The average Tolkien fan on the internet is a total manchild

[@snappycenter7863]

Tolkien descried black as a beautiful color in the Simarillion, and that one of Morgoth's victories was in associating darkness and night with fear and evil. Likely because Morgoth destroyed the first lights of the world - the two trees before before the simarils and the sun - bringing about major darkness. That's an interesting idea - explaining why black in "Black and White" is associated with evil.

[@craigcassidy6078]

Colour

[@Klongu_Da_Bongu]

@@craigcassidy6078 Another lockdown 4 u

[@rafisyed2933]

I admire Martin for this. It is exhausting to see every other fantasy writer/book circle around the same denominations of Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Halflings etc. Having a dark lord is alright, and all of that, but fantasy itself having these limiting races as if there is nothing else, is just disingenuous. They try to present themselves as reworking the genre, but they are not. They are rehashing the very structures and imitating the world building nearly 1:1 and calling it a genre staple. As a fantasy author, it pisses me off.

[@leakypeach6250]

Tbf, most of that came from the big publishers asking for Tolkien-lite fantasy and nothing else. It wasn't really until the self-publishing boom that traditional publishers really got on board with nonstandard fantasy.

[@rafisyed2933]

@@leakypeach6250 its partly the problem, but when you're in the writing industry, you'll see countless and countless people just write in the same set of races, and/or have the same type of magic repeated over and over again, and these days, its even worse because they tend to write it in a very modern syntax while keeping the structure almost intact, borrowing some more from World of Warcraft, and meh...why? It's so limiting. So, when someone creates something new, the industry just goes up in arms complaining it feels too complex because our brains are oversaturated. Talk about limiting fantasy.

[@jonas7483]

I the witcher is using the races much better then the Lord of the Rings

[@rafisyed2933]

@@jonas7483 Doesn't negate the fact that its still blatantly ripoff.

[@jonas7483]

@@rafisyed2933 but he improved them a 1000% tho. The same way GoT improved dragons.

[@moogiibat5845]

Then the lesser writers started taking their cues from Martin and turning the subversion into a cliché themselves that becoming very predictable.

[@ragnarwiik2054]

I could listen to this guy all day.

[@Issen_Mode]

So GRRM is kind of a natural evolution of what Tolkien started. I really like getting lost in both of the worlds they created. Tolkien for his ancient Norse/christian inspired mystical and epic mythos, George for his dark, mysterious, character focused, historically inspired realism.

[@dugonman8360]

Theres a particularity about fantasy and its authors and fandom that makes me feel like theres a certain level of insecurity about it. Like there's a certain level of growing pains that makes me feel like the entirety of it thinks their genre is lesser than others, that its more juvenile or something. The constant harping on tolkein and the monolothic presence he has is such a sign to me. Sure there are tropey fantasy that imitates its founder but you can say this is even more applicable to other genres. The mystery/thriller genre sits cozy in the shade Arthur Conan Doyle made and many of their works doesn't stray from the sherlock holme formula: quirky excentric detective, down to earth sidekick as they untangle seemingly impossible cases. Elizabeth george, Agatha Christie, even the girl with the dragon tatoo stands firmly in his shade to a T. The noir of the 30s and 40s is the same, just made Sherlock an alcoholic. Horro stands firm and proud with Bram Stoker and H.P. Lovecraft cutting off the sunlight while sci-fi has been imitating Asimov, herbert and clarke for generations and they do not bemoan their foundation being built untop of them. Even the literary world could simply be seen as variations of Dickens. Is hemingway just dickens but replacing with the underclass downtrodden with world-weary men who had seen the horrors of war? I think the fantasy genre has already proven itself as a genre with some of the best stories anyone can find. Thos constant degrading is like a teenager mocking his baptist upbringing because the church hall raffles with marmalaide squares and rice crispy treats presented by beehived soccer moms isn't the most sophisticated image, even if those Rice crispy treats are delicious.

[@GothicXlightning]

.. much love TOLKIEN & STAN LEE & KENTARO MIURA..

[@Johannnnnnnnnnnnn]

Its Miura's birthday today man

[@navnishbhardwaj3436]

@@Johannnnnnnnnnnnn praise the sun ☀️

[@Johannnnnnnnnnnnn]

@@navnishbhardwaj3436 And I am honoured to share My birthday with a Legend like him

[@GothicXlightning]

much love my friend and may BERSERK live forever

[@Johannnnnnnnnnnnn]

@@GothicXlightning Yes an Unfinished Masterpiece

[@andrzejkopalnia]

When the date for TWOW is announced it will be like triple-christmas for me!

[@MotherAlgorithm]

I won't be buying or reading it until he finishes the next one, which he wont.

[@andrzejkopalnia]

Faith, people. Maybe it means way too much to me haha

[@enorma29]

I can't believe how Stephenie Meyer dared to finish her book series, just like Tolkien. Thank heavens GRRM is not a Tolkien imitator.

[@victorthiago9084]

He is absolutely right

[@Gwildor2020]

A Song of Ice and Fire will be forgotten in 50 years and the LotRs will be remembered forever.

[@antekpatyk9425]

I really doubt it will be forgotten. It will at the very least be remembered for opening the way for fantasy adaptations and making grimdark more mainstream.

[@Johannnnnnnnnnnnn]

Hmm I think someone will sometimes finish It only 2 books are left like just a 29% more It Definitely won't be forgotten and I feel That even though Lotr is a Masterpiece it Maybe forgotten even Asoiaf idk

[@ondras5241]

I don't agree. LOTR is undeniably classic, but ASOIF is also a great piece of art

[@RuSosan]

Okay, fanatic.

[@dagger1580]

It’s already been forgotten! and at this point I doubt George will ever finish writing his books!

[@Filip_Agrippa]

Well, flipping fantasy tropes still makes them tropes, only in reverse.

[@passing_the_torch]

Honestly I feel like berserk does fantasy/dark fantasy really well, I sing it’s praises all the time. In addition, I can start to say that about The Stormlight Archive by Sanderson (I’m on the first book still)

[@theslugboiii5969]

Berserk is absolute god tier. One of the greatest series in any medium

[@Johannnnnnnnnnnnn]

Berserk mainly Is Character driven one of the best indeed

[@adamnesico]

Why? I saw the golden age movies, and fir me was just another bunch of shonen tropes.

[@theslugboiii5969]

@@adamnesico read the manga

[@Johannnnnnnnnnnnn]

@@theslugboiii5969 As a Berserk Manga Reader it Kinda dropped Quality after Golden age arc Golden age arc was absolutely Incredible on the level of Asoiaf and even Lotr then It dropped a Bit not that much Overall Its the greatest manga of all time for me Atleast

[@dardobartoli]

He's a most impressive and gracious chap.

[@reapfield8687]

GRRM roasts Robert Jordan for 3 minutes

[@leostales2681]

Apparently, George and Robert were friends and mutual admirers, so he may have been referring to other Tolkien imitators.

[@dawnheroes7574]

@@leostales2681 I never read the books of this guy but you can be friends and dislike his book.

[@Eddieo9999]

Thats really not true, if youve read the Wheel of Time yes there is a darklord and Trollocs with Black riders. But its the nations of the world and there differences which make it more in debth rather than good vs evil all the time. Like for Example all the villans are ugly like George says above, alot of the times the Human Villans in the wheel of time are beautiful charasmatic people. Also with the good guys all wear white, Robert Jordan much like George flips this on its head. He makes the White Cloaks a corrupt, anti magic and xenophobic organisation which has fallen from grace. Even the main Characters in the series have some serious mental and tragic problems. We all know Robert Jordan was inspired by Tolkien the same can be said for GRR Martin but they took elements from the LOTR and made there own worlds and changed to make something great if not in some part better.

[@leostales2681]

@@dawnheroes7574 Fair point, but George did praise the series in his obituary for Robert Jordan: "[Robert's] contributions to modern fantasy were many. His huge, ambitious WHEEL OF TIME series helped to redefine the genre, and opened many doors for the writers who followed."

[@Last-Outrider]

I think one of the saddest Tolkien is that relatively few people read his world building books guides on how to write fantasy. Everyone says he is such a great author but when he writes guides on how to do it people think yeah piss off.

[@th11ccbo15]

His knowledge on classical fantasy is way more shallow than imagined

[@biketrailing4277]

George RR Martin is highly intelligent, but his writing is intended for mid-wits, who consider themselves clever because they are fans of nuance and ambiguity and cheer whenever Martin inverts some mythic trope. Mythical archetypes are based on racial memories which are far more authentic, universal, and timeless, and this is why JRR Tolkien will be read long after George RR Martin is forgotten. George RR Martin recreated the War of the Roses in a fantasy universe. Okay, well done. But I could just read about the actual War of the Roses. Tolkien successfully created folklore, in the way Homer did millennia ago. That is no small achievement.

[@adamnesico]

@@biketrailing4277 well, both did basically the same, the made a nice collage of diferent sources, Jon pf myths, George of history.

[@simondjokovic9120]

@@biketrailing4277 You obviously don't know what you're talking about. It's more than just a recreation of the war of roses, there are so many complex themes and topics interwoven within the story. I'm tired of tolkien fanboys making up random reasons why grrm isn't good just based off their own opinions.

[@MasterIceyy]

@@simondjokovic9120 tbf though the main conflict of ASOIAF is literally the war of the roses. with a world built around it. Middle-earth is a living breathing world, with thousands of years of history, and flowing stories that span ages where you can see the causes and effects on individuals through the years. ASOIAF simply doesn't have that same level of existence that M-E does. it doesn't make you a fanboy just because you can see that one thing is different/better than another. LOTR is still a cultural icon and still spoken about almost 100 years on from the hobbits first release, where as ASOIAF has pretty much fallen out of the cultural zeitgeist in almost 2 years, even the prequels that are being teased are struggling to gain momentum or legs.

[@aishah7730]

@@biketrailing4277 tolkien fans dickeating as usual. asoiaf takes from many parts of history sure but if u had any deeper understanding of text other than good guys good bad guys bad hur hur you'd understand some of the interesting commentary martin attempts to make on the impact of war, the nature of violence, self identity, what it means to be a man/what it means to be a woman, disabilities, morality, slavery, deconstructing established structures and institutions like the monarchy, knights, religion etc. no one saying all this commentary is good and it's not without criticism but it's doing a lot more than that boring sod tolkien. his books put me to sleep more than anything. world building is fine but what truly makes a story is compelling characters with real motivations that can make me feel something whether it's hatred or empathy.

[@Trackmorelimittime]

It's ironic that Tolkien's Middle Earth is a lot more brutal than ASOIAF. In Tolkien's world 90% of good guys die because of betrayal, ambition, delusions of grandeur or vanity, not because they are killed by orcs. Story of Feanor and his sons is a thousand times more brutal and dark than any rape or violence in GoT. Sadly ppl will never know it cause actually _reading_ Tolkien is a rarity now even among so called critics and experts.

[@201Megaman]

well, at least they finished the books...

[@rrolo1]

GRRM : I see Tolkien Imitators. Interviewer : In your dreams? [GRRM shakes his head no] Interviewer : While you're awake? [GRRM nods] Interviewer : Tolkien Imitators like, in libraries? In movies? GRRM : Walking around like regular people. They don't see each other. They only see what they want to see. They don't know they're bad writers. Interviewer : How often do you see them? GRRM : All the time. They're everywhere

[@tomsawyerpiper9412]

Say it with me now: Different doesn’t equal good.

[@sjeya96]

It doesn’t equal bad either.

[@thomasmain5986]

Raven's not bad in the LOTR, he is thinking of Crow's.

[@TucoBenedicto]

What a lot of modern revisionists don't seem to fully grasp about Tolkien is that his dichotomy between good and bad wasn't born out of a naivety, but it was a deliberate stylistic choice that he even openly commented on in a lot of letters. He deliberately avoided a lot of "moral ambiguity" because he wanted his Epic to have that almost-religious vibe of the classical myths and legends. That, putting aside that there was a lot more of "moral grey" even just in the interactions between the "good guys" that a lot of critics give him credit for. "The forces for Good" in his books are often divided by petty disputes, corruption, resentment, jealousy, etc... Until the moment they can finally get over it and respond to the "call" for the greater good.

[@born2biscuit]

Im betting he himself is a imitator because he has no intention of ever releasing a new book and then dying and he gets a hard on thinking about how he is a legend who never completed the series like tolkien

[@TihetrisWeathersby]

The problem with a lot of Fantasy writers is there stuff is generic and un original

[@darthvaderdylan]

​@@dimitrescucrncevic9746 Originality does on some level though. We aren't talking about borrowing themes from old folk tales or plot points from history, but seeing what someone else has done and copying it as much as they can. it's one thing to be inspired by a work but another when your work is just harry potter without the name harry. Tolkien inspired Martin's work and they are vastly different.

[@balabanasireti]

@ghost pork Fantasy happens to be one of the most unoriginal genres though.

[@phillystevesteak6982]

@@dimitrescucrncevic9746 you have a misconcieved idea of how to evaluate originality. Here's why: you are looking at originality as a black and white thing (it either is or it isnt). While you should be looking at it as a scale (how unique on a degree of 1 to 100). 1 being art that recycles popular tropes, styles, and formulas of the time. 100 being art that pushes societal expectations and norms, questions the status quo, and breaks conventions.

[@dimitrescucrncevic9746]

@@darthvaderdylan I agree, it exists to some level but all ideas stem from a source of inspiration. Which makes both new or original. But I see the point in your argument and agree.

[@phillystevesteak6982]

@@dimitrescucrncevic9746 uh. Just read it. Lol it makes perfect sense

[@Hemskelol]

It worked for Tolkien because he created an entire World where all of that makes sense, it is not a reflection of our world at all, at least not in the ways that matter, ASOIAF is very much a reflection of the western world and its history, LOTR is more metaphorical and philosophical, I enjoy both but I respect Tolkien's work more simply because of the effort that was put into it

[@David-li4uw]

Most LOTRs fans have only read the the Hobbit and LOTRs. Without reading Silmarillion and his other writings you don’t realize what was truly going on. The black and white, good guys and bad guys thing doesn’t exist in Tolkien the way he thinks it does. The reason the elves in LOTRs are all good and fair is because they learned it the hard way.

[@cookeecutkk]

So true.

[@MouseGuardian]

Tolkien wrote high fantasy, with good, evil and powerful symbolism. Martin writes low fantasy with gritty realism and brutal people on all sides. Both sub-genres are legit and can be great. Same with heroic fantasy, sword & sorcery and every other sub-genre… You can like apples AND oranges, you don’t have to pick just one fruit.

[@HRIgnomious]

I agree with the Martin, but not on the fact that a lot of fantasy is too black and white. I just hate how they all reuse the same settings. For Western fantasy media everything is essentially d&d/ Lord of the Rings and for Japanese fantasy everything is Dragon Quest (which is dumb when you try to have JRPG mechanics in your world-building).

[@ahmedshaharyarejaz9886]

I wish GRRM would imitate Tolkein by finishing his own series first.

[@joelfernandez536]

Tolkien is timeless. It's poetic in scope because of its Anglo Saxon influence, etc. It didnt get bogged down with details because it wasnt ever meant to be grim and gritty. It leaves plenty to the imagination. Also, there aren't as many flaccid penises flopping around, etc.

[@happyllama1160]

The penises (peni?) really do put it off being timeless and accessible to anyone. I couldn’t read GOT because of all the disturbing and graphic rape scenes and they really put me off this guy. When someone goes to that detail into stuff like that it becomes clear that it isn’t there to add to the story, but as some sort of creepy porn for demented people. Rape scenes aren’t inherently bad (the action is horrid but writing them for a reason in the story doesn’t mean the writer thinks raping people is cool) but the amount of detail… I get that he’s trying to defy the tropes but it’s just subversion for subversions sake so doesn’t amount to anything decent. It’s much more clever and harder to take the tropes and use them in a different way, or show a different side to them.

[@happyllama1160]

IDK this isn’t what your comment was about but The Last Unicorn is a much cleverer subversion on the Hobbit’s and fairy tales’ tropes than GOT. It’s similar to Princess Tutu being a better subversion of that Genre’s tropes than Madoka

[@CalmNoises]

@@happyllama1160 I have read all of the A song of Ice and Fire series and I'm pretty sure not a single rape was described or even happened. @Joel Fernandez Neither do I remember a single flaccid penis. It must be your imagination. my friend.

[@Marshmellow3971]

The point he’s making here is that every author should strive to be unique, as everyone has a unique worldview. Tolkien’s works were good because they completely captured the essence of everything he believed and no other author could have written lord of the rings. It’s fine to take inspiration from Tolkien, Tolkien himself took inspiration from many places, but make it your own. GRRM definitely did that with ASOIAF.

[@Triceratronz]

Do we know if George has read Berserk?

[@jeremias-serus]

Berserk is a great story as far as Eastern story telling goes; however we do a great many things differently in the West. Berserk would generally be considered fine by our standards.

[@bankiey]

“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan “Originality” is an invalid concept in a universe that has memory aka history, there can only be innovation. The best art reveals something that has always existed but has yet to be formulated

[@izaakaz6863]

But wait, Ravens work for the good guys in Tolkien! Aren't they specifically allied with the Dwarves of Erebor?

[@jeremias-serus]

Likely mixed up ravens with crows.

[@panda4247]

When he talks about good people wearing white and bad people being ugly in the cliché stories. it instantly reminded me of this quote “the world isn’t split into good people and death eaters, we’ve all got both light and dark inside us, what matters is the part we choose to act on. That’s who we really are” -- Sirius Black (by the, I think JKR also played with this trope a bit when giving a name to this character... His family name was Black, and sure, his ancestors were hardcore purebloods, and generalli "the bad guys" in the context of the pureblood question, but Sirius himself chose differently...)

[@satana8157]

Martin didn't criticize Tolkien at all. He just criticized his imitators. He actually said they just copied some of his tropes. He has said his inspiration for the book is The Lord of The Rings in many interviews. But the Tolkien fans are so toxic that can't even listen to what he said. At this point your only rivals are Rick and Morty fans.

[@jovan9989]

Throwing shade on Wheel of Time.

[@cabefinn]

I’m not sure how some can suggest that war in a fantasy novel is different. I don’t think I’ve ever read a fantasy novel where there wasn’t a war, or at least the threat of war looming. I know that she was trying to suggest that his novels are gritty, but war in fantasy is pretty much the rule not the exception.

[@islandplace7235]

I don't think just subverting tropes makes for strong storytelling. Its like surprise! You might be shocked the first time, catch you off guard, but then it happens again and again. It no longer is a surprise. So much of media today is built on that idea, so it is more of a shock when something adheres to the traditional archtypes.

[@tylermcnair4921]

The Rings of Powers instantly comes to mind

[@narindraramanankasaina2545]

He's one to talk.

[@EdgarStyles1234]

this guy cares more talking about himself more than finishing his books and securing his legacy

[@dreamsoflorien8237]

Tolkien finished his masterpiece - you never will sadly

[@Marcotonio]

Writing in black and white is in no way harder than or different from writing in gray. All the imitators who failed to make an interesting story about pure good versus pure evil are now failing at the same magnitude to make good stories about morally ambiguous and "complex" characters. People add grittiness and vulgarity not because they have a purpose for it in the story, but because it's the new trend, because you can label it "realistic" and that somehow make you more intelligent than those "silly 7 years old" who think a moral character can be interesting. The situation was not improved, people were just given a new flavor of sewage to drink from.

[@AFNTWMB]

But the ravens in Game of Thrones ARE bad omens, they bring bad news mostly through the story “Dark wings; dark words”

[@Falcrist]

Tolkien's work wasn't anything like modern fantasy. He was writing *mythology*. In mythology, you can make your characters fit the story, make your evil uncomplicated, use flowery prose unironically, etc etc. In modern fantasy, the story has to fit the characters, and you're no longer allowed to have cookie-cutter good guys and bad guys. A LOT of modern fantasy is full of gritty realism.

[@flynntom8057]

But even in Tolkiens works you have people like Faenor and Boromir who showed obvious complexity, representing man's fall to their temptations and emotions.

[@Falcrist]

@@flynntom8057 Yes, but even then it's presented more as a morality story would than actual depth and complexity. You're not getting into those characters' heads as much as they're being used to illustrate a lesson. I can't remember much about the Feanor story anymore, but I'm just starting to reread the Sil as of 3 days ago. However, Boromir is a pretty uncomplicated character. He's driven to use the ring the entire time he's in the story. Again, the book is very mythological in its approach... which is deliberate! Tolkien wanted to write a new mythology for England, not invent a new genera of fiction that was vaguely similar to science fiction.

[@Riskmangler]

Does anyone else think Martin owes thanks to Robert Adams? The Horseclans series was every bit as brutal and raw as anything Martin has written.

[@craigbowen9995]

George RR Martin on himself?

[@locusmortis]

There were some pretty good Tolkein imitators too though like Tad Williams, Ray Feist (the first 3 novels at least) and Margaret Weis/Tracy Hickman.

[@cbalan777]

GRRM appear to be a contrarian. He purposefully does the opposite of what he doesn't like about other people's stories. Fantasy? Make it more real. Plot armor? Kill em'. Beautiful person? They're a monster. etc.

[@ITBlanka]

Finish the story? Leave it as it is... lmao

[@ariaaster4122]

Contrarian ? You mean subverting the norm ? Legitimately go read a fucking book lol

[@cbalan777]

@@ariaaster4122 Subversion is a tactic. Being a contrarian is a mindset. You do see the difference there?

[@NevaehCyanide]

@@ITBlanka Got'em.

[@omgersk8er]

I wouldn't say that. I think he's mostly doing it for a purpose: to make fantasy less rigid, conventional and stale.

[@mikhailbisserov]

So GRRM also lives in the shadow of Tolkien. It's just instead of imitating him he turned Tolkien's ideas on their head.

[@PanHaszaman]

That interviewer is so fake...

[@mercrantos3455]

That woman keeps trying to interrupt him but she has nothing to say.

[@maxgrozema1093]

Didn't ol' georgie add an extra 'R' to his name? j. R. R. tolkien and g. R. R. martin? I mean, you could argue that is some kind of mimickry.

[@goldenspiral6008]

It is well known that it was indeed to mimic Tolkien´s name. George does take a lot from his influences and he has a lot of them.

[@ryanbrets7695]

Don't forget Frodo son of Drogo.

[@thehellyousay]

he has some nerve even opening his mouth

[@makokx7063]

Nothing is original. People change a name, a color, an attribute of a concept and call it new. You can slap a bunch of random adjectives on a random noun and find that it's been done before. More eyes, less eyes, big ears, no ears, scales, fur, animal parts, good, evil, good but conflicted, evil but redeemable, betrayals, self-sacrifice, what is love? baby don't . . . all stories have axioms, core concepts and story tellers just make them wear different dresses. The only difference is some people do it masterfully and some people realize the masses can't tell the difference so slap a use $5 prom dress on it and make millions off of it.

[@hannibalburgers477]

Congrats for your High School graduation. You learned about the literature 101. "it was the best of times, it was the blurst of times."

[@makokx7063]

@@hannibalburgers477 Don't need high school for that little pearl. I'm sure someone with an English literature degree could tell me how I'm wrong. I'm sure they'd have the time, being unemployed and all lol

[@nicford1486]

"There's nothing new under the sun"

[@Fergus316]

I picked up and read George R.R. Martin the first time because it said "American Tolkien" on the back. But I agree that he is the complete opposite of Tolkien. "Realism" assumes a certain moral stance about life under the sun that a Catholic like Tolkien would have rejected.

[@TihetrisWeathersby]

Seriously, The Host is creepy, Her laugh haunts my dreams

[@markmarderosian9657]

There's a huge layer of insincere phoniness, not to mention the generic questions.

[@QueenDaenerysTargaryen]

Agreed, Martin gets the worst interviewers. 💥💥

[@EdgarStyles1234]

welcome to toronto

[@Kevin_Karst]

I've watched several videos from this event and I have to say she's one of the weirdest and creepiest people I've ever seen. Making random weird remarks, suddenly laughing for no reason at all, crazy facial expressions, etc. She has more different personalities than James McAvoy in "Split".

[@xakashi12123]

just another example of Generic Interviewer #589. She has the same exact word choice and tone as every other interviewer like her. Fake as shit.

[@mbryson2899]

I read LotR when I was 10/11, and couldn't stand Tolkien imitators. Luckily for me Karl Edward Wagner's "Kane" stories and Leiber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were easy to find back then so I didn't have to settle for the imitators.

[@campbelldowler1396]

Love Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. Do you know where you can purchase them these days? I only have a few, and it's rather tricky to find the rest. Also, might I recommend "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn", if you enjoy fantasy? It's quite good.

[@mbryson2899]

@@campbelldowler1396 , Amazon is very expensive, but eBay occasionally has deals. Karl Edward Wagner is a little more affordable. Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out.

[@campbelldowler1396]

@@mbryson2899 thanks for the recommendations!

[@adamnesico]

@@mbryson2899 If you dislike Tolkien imitators, you wont like Sorrwos&Thorn. Wich novel do you suggest?

[@mbryson2899]

@@adamnesico "Darkness Weaves" is my favorite Wagner novel, "Swords and Deviltry" my favorite Leiber. Both have so much good writing that is worth reading. Thank you for the tip as well.

[@philipboardman1357]

I love this

[@clumsyturtle8544]

I wonder what he thinks about amazon, journalists and twitter attacking Tolkiens work so they can change it for a modern day political climate. I hope he knows years down the line they will come for his work too.

[@InfamousMedia]

I’m rather out of the loop but why is it being attacked? And by whom?

[@canyou7670]

@@InfamousMedia I think they want Tolkien works to be more "modern" like have gays, blacks,asians..etc...

[@raphaelkhan1668]

Medieval Europeans did the same to the works of the Greeks and Romans. The Muslims did it to the works of the Assyrians and Persians. People have ALWAYS changed the works of the past to suit their modern taste since time immemorial. Acting like it's some new sin only done by SJW's is to be disingenuous or ignorant.

[@canyou7670]

@@raphaelkhan1668 The problem is they want representation meaning they are forcing representation. There's a lot of white roles from iconic movies that had black actors and they were all great but when people force movies to have representation the movie will look so stupid. If they look at the actors _talent_ and if they will _fit_ the role then it's fine but they don't do that because like what you have said people changed things to suit their "modern" taste.

[@canyou7670]

@@raphaelkhan1668Because I'm from the Philippines it would still be fun to watch every scenes of an Asian elf or an Asian dwarf.lol

[@vanessajazp6341]

And George RR Martin knows a thing or 2 about imitating Tolkien....

[@gilmer3718]

So, is he just going to ignore Michael Moorcock's antiheroes of his books, most notably Elric of Melnibone?

[@MrATN800]

Yeaaah, given Moorcock's own venomous vituperations regarding tolkien, I don't really take him as much of an example