German Surface to Air Missile Anti-Air in WW2? | Fake Tank Friday

[@ConeOfArc]

Even with the ones I added in while writing I still technically missed a couple since there are some of the absolutely crack-pipe walker tanks with launchers for them. Might have to do a top 10 craziest napkinwaffe model kits someday.

[@Mercnotforhire]

You'd enjoy some of the kitbash heresy then

[@cmsIGauffahrgestellPanzerkampf]

You should dig deeper into this rabbit hole of fake scale model panzers, might I recommend the fist of war series of models by modelcollect through an excellent model site called scalemates which archives most if not all scale models that you could search for yourself.

[@andrewwoodhead3141]

Before I even watch this : I love fake tank Fridays . Also : WW1 German Oberschlesien tanks. It's gone a bit quiet recently but it's still out there, faking it's fake booty .

[@mandernachluca3774]

Just a little fun fact, the Rheintochter was actually tested with a simple infrared seeker and a proximity fuse of varying design. The early heat seeking device was pretty similar to the first sidewinder seekers in that it had one infrared sensitive cristal of the viewing field was interupted by a spinning disc with a certain pattern. In this regard, the germans were actually pretty far ahead of the allies. People always seem to get excited about the german ww2 research for the wrong reasons. There were incredible developements, they just weren't big machines but rather the small subsystems.

[@majordakka5743]

Top 10 Wehaboo-bait vehicles

[@kanrakucheese]

This was a real proposal... by model companies. Even cheap models go through a design and approval stage.

[@emanuelmorales83]

And his production stopped in 2017. Today is a vintage kit.

[@Vespuchian]

Thanks for pointing out how Germany wasn't the only nation testing guided missiles during the 40s, I was particularly impressed with American proto-cruise missiles when I stumbled across them.

[@Archmagos_Faber]

it should be said more often that Germany wasn't the only one pushing science forward, but they were ahead in a lot of fields and had more numerous and successful designs. its also very true to say each nation excelled in different technologies, like the US with the Atomic bomb, they were decades ahead of Germany and its arguable that the German method may not have been possible at that time.

[@RaptorJesus]

@@Archmagos_Faber The Germans were only "more successful" because they were so incredibly desperate. They were at the point of throwing money & resources to anything with even the smallest hope of success. Very much a "throw it at the wall, see what sticks" form of R&D. Due to that, they have far more successes.

[@deauthorsadeptus6920]

@@Archmagos_Faber Germans on the other hand have numerous nuclear reactors, much more advanced then american ones.

[@aregulargenericname8794]

@@deauthorsadeptus6920 THEY DIDN'T HAVE NUCLEAR REACTORS, there is no proof that, they tried but they failed, end of story

[@DeadEndGoose]

@@Archmagos_Fabere US had functioning remote controlled combat drones. It’s as others have said, generally other countries weren’t as desperate as Nazi germany. Idk it’s weirdly frustrating to me because it’s almost like making a lie out of the truth. They did have some innovations, but the interest was because it was crazy nazi technology not because it was the best and 90 years ahead of its time

[@adanenedary7350]

E-100 "only hull was finished" Model kit company: "pimp my ride"

[@pauld6967]

Nice video. Tell us more about the experimental "assault drones" the U.S. used in the Pacific Theater. The picture you had onscreen was a first-time-seeing moment for me.

[@dave_sic1365]

As far as I know those were modified bombers that carried a live TV camera set and were flown remotely by experienced pilots. The Americans flew at least one attack in Europe against the V3 England Geschütz in mimoyecques

[@oco8783]

​@Dave_sic That's a different drone, operation archimedes. This was the drone in the video en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_TDR

[@dave_sic1365]

@@oco8783 thanks I knew it under the name operation Aphrodite. I'll have a look at the link

[@pauld6967]

@@oco8783 Quite right. I am familiar with Archimedes. Thank you for the link. This is new information for me. I could tell from the photo that it had to be early in the U.S. participation of W.W. II because of the red dot in the national insignia.

[@kievbutcher]

@@pauld6967 I would highly recommend viewing historian Mark Felton's video on the US drones, it's very fascinating and arguably an early version of a precision guided munition. There's also arguments that say it might be what spurred the Japanese to adopt kamikaze attacks.

[@glassfullofmilk]

Wow didn't realise that there were "working" SAM systems being developed during ww2, I knew that the technology was possible at the time but in Germany it certainly is improbable.

[@dave_sic1365]

There were alot of promising SAM designs that were tested during the war or shortly after. Rheintochter was very influential for soviet SAM design while Wasserfall influenced early American SAM

[@anzaca1]

@@dave_sic1365 The Wasserfall was the only one that could've bveen effective, since it utilised a liquid explosive, to produce a 200 ft blast radius. A sinlge rocket could've brought down an entire formation.

[@coldstonecanc3rgang994]

I went to the Udvar Hazy center in Virginia during a trip to DC and that fascinated me when I learned missiles were that far along in 1944.

[@randompheidoleminor3011]

A lot of people are unaware that the US literally had radar-guided glide bombs that they deployed against the Japanese in early 1944 too

[@DoggosGames]

@@anzaca1 Bomber's cant be taken down by a light shockwave. Fragmentation of any kind?

[@Mati_Panzer]

while the tank mounted versions are totally fake, this was the perfect excuse to learn about those german missiles which I actually had no idea existed, good video as always

[@gratefulguy4130]

There were more designs as well. They had essentially heat seeking missiles at the end but could put many together (as with any such technology, any successes were marked as "top secret" and not allowed to be discussed.. this is why we never have data on how effective things were so assume the less you know the more it scared Allied leadership).

[@TheSuperZOS]

I know there's a model kit for that thing and I am *VERY* tempted to buy it.

[@ivantsang2156]

Trumpeter brand

[@rudatkatzn9171]

I have it from Modelcollect with either a V1 or a Rheintochter

[@alfaromeo1819]

@@rudatkatzn9171 Woww.Sound tempting

[@notlistening6499]

"Napkin Waffe" was unexpected and hilarious

[@brettimkopp7514]

Crazy piece. I love it. I knew of the rocket program but mounting it on a Panzer Hull? If someone is making an Iron sky themed RTS Game, please take inspiration from this.

[@williamzk9083]

I've studied the guidance systems for these missiles extensively using German documents. The reality is that the radar, optics, trackers and command system would require more trailers than the missiles themselves and they all needed to be connected together by cables. Nothing wrong with that but the missiles would be semi mobile and likely moved by trailer towed by a truck. Conventional 20mm, 37mm and the radar directed 55mm FLAK (Geraete 58) handle the fast moving aircraft well. The Germans even had a quad 20mm gun aimed by a microwave radar (FuG 240) adapted from a nightfighter called renner.

[@mbr5742]

​@@williamzk9083A nice what if would be a Panther II based Coelian with such a radar. One might name it after a very fast animal say a Roadrunner or a Cheetha ;) With the drive train problem fixed by using Tiger finals the Panther II should have a solid reliably after all

[@ThePorumbelul]

It's so weird that we can find scale models of totally weird tanks such as the Panther SAM or the E-100 SAM launchers, but there are no Centurion Action X or the FV4202 models...

[@TheArklyte]

That's something straight up from Road to 56 mod for Hoi4. Except in that case it's Ajax SAM and "superheavy" in the eyes of Rt56 is something like late heavy tanks ie IS-7, M103, Conqueror, Object 279, T-10M, AMX-50. So it's not hard to imagine such chassis being used to carry the launcher for the battery. But that's specifically late 50's tech, not early 40's:D How do people come up with such things and more importantly how do they sell other people on such ideas?0_o

[@5peciesunkn0wn]

Hilarity mostly.

[@highjumpstudios2384]

The pizzazz factor

[@niewiemjaksienazwac1652]

They pitch it to wehraboos probably.

[@flyingscotsman9657]

I've got to be honest, I do have a good number of the model kits you showed. I know they're not real, but I just think they look cool.

[@holajza]

They are very cool

[@masshysteria9657]

Would love a WW2 RTS Game to have customizable units so I can mobilize horrid creations like this

[@barbos1507]

I remember first time seeing this specific missle carrier in 2007 rts warfront turning point. It had all of crazy ww2 gizmos, like german ultrasonic tanks and piloted mechs, usser freeze and subterranian tanks or allies force field generators and helicopters.

[@kahlzun]

Kinda like alpha centurai, that would be great

[@DakotaofRaptors]

Men of War with mods?

[@5peciesunkn0wn]

The only reason people claim the Nazi wonder weapons were lightyears ahead is because they wound up being desperate enough to use them in combat despite serious flaws.

[@NK-qn6pq]

Because of those flaws, they were mostly ineffective and just cost Germany a ton of money and resources...so they probably helped the Allies more (and the "wonder weapons" tech was used after the war, such as in the space race.)

[@TheIzroda]

@@NK-qn6pq Wouldn't that mean that this tech was actually ahead? Why would the US use technology from their former enemies if they have superior or at least on par tech of theirs? So you also have Operation Paperclip which you mentioned, and that already makes for at least two reasons for people to claim some wonder weapon technologies were very ahead for their time. When you see comments starting with "The only reason..." nowadays you almost certainly know they will be untrue to some degree.

[@joshuajoaquin5099]

@@TheIzroda depends, remember these tech that was ahead of the time was deemed obsolete after 1950. Especially with the V1 rockets and V2. They made a better and efficient designs than those two

[@jwenting]

@@joshuajoaquin5099 both the Soviets, Americans, and British (and arguably the French) used captured German equipment and engineering data as a basis for future developments, combining it with their own experiments where appropriate. For example the Scud missiles used into the 1990s by many countries (and missiles based on them to this date) are direct derivatives of the V-2. Early Soviet SAMs like the SA-2 which was quite effective in Vietnam were direct descendants of the German WW2 designs the Soviets took back home. The early Soviet jet fighters were based on German engineering by Focke Wulf (but using copied British engines eventually).

[@TheIzroda]

@@joshuajoaquin5099 Yes but the tech that replaced it was also developed from improvements and upgrades of said WWII tech. This wasn't some technological vacuum where something absolutely new and developed in parallel suddenly replaced those technologies in 1950, so yes later more advanced tech owes its advancement to earlier tech which in this case includes even "wonder weapon" technology. Take a look for example at the Regulus I missile, which was developed during the late 40s and early 50s and was in service to the mid 60s. That's almost like saying Ford Model T was deemed obsolete by the early 2000s. Sure, but were would car manufacturing be without it?

[@CharcharoExplorer]

I am really happy you saw the weapon in War Front Turning Point. I am one of its wiki editors so seeing my 4K snip of the vehicle on KZbin was nice

[@chrisb3585]

I do think that someone looked at Cuban S-75 and S-125 TELs based off the T-55 tank and went 'Wow these look interesting, now if only the Wehrmacht had its own version. 🤔'

[@teatanks6481]

Surprised to see Warfront turn up here, I remember it from way back; old ass Eurojank RTS about an alternate WW2, it's a game where the Tiger is Germany's medium line tank and the Soviets have liquid nitrogen troopers. And on top of that it's still a surprisingly fun game, sadly it's practically abandonware with no (legal) digital distributors and some hard copies floating around Amazon and Ebay. I've got a physical copy gathering dust since my disc drive broke so can't use that, however like most old games it will struggle to run properly on Windows 10 right out the box.

[@zacharypurdue4584]

I wish the companies who make these kits would expand into doing other countries, WW2 Germany absolutely dominates the model kit scene, would love to some of the crazy DPRK weapons actually built for instance.

[@unsuisseegare1291]

this serie is interesting but I hate it, because after every episode I want to buy a model of those cool looking tank

[@GundamMate07]

1:40 - 2:30 Was listening to this while playing another game and I had to double check I wasn't watching a hoi4 video with that iconic BGM (Specifically Bring Forth the Tanks). Great video as always man!

[@certifiedidiot9625]

It’s a shame that Modelcollect discontinued many of their historical models in 1/72 *cough T-65BM cough* in favor of their wacky “Fist of War” range. Maybe you could take a look at their “walking tanks” next!

[@edwardjoe8448]

honestly, I don't know who will buy those wacky fist of war kit. They looks sci-fi but that's about it. Still no idea why don't they continue their modern armor kit. It seemed pretty successful.

[@alloy299]

In defense of ModelCollect, it was a rather small company and these were meant to be what-if that were released along literally walking mechs, twin barrel tanks and other sci-fi reaching stuff. They are neat for those who find it neat, not to be taken seriously.

[@ConeOfArc]

I have nothing against the models themselves I just like to explain the reality behind them as often it isn't done by the companies themselves which can confuse people with less knowledge on the subject.

[@mikkojk83]

Soviet Union had a prototype that mounted S-25 Berkut (SA-1 Guild) missile on IS-3 chassis, maybe the model makers got the idea from there? Some of the German engineers that developed the Rheindochter were also involved in S-25 Berkut during their extended "visit" in Soviet Union.

[@robertschumacher2707]

One point to make about the 88mm SPAA designs is that while static or guns are good enough for area defense of cities, the Wermacht had plenty of mobile and semi-mobile potential targets to justify having medium AA guns protecting them.

[@TinyBearTim]

My only question is how on earth do people think this is real who on earth would need a SPAA with the armour of a maus

[@harveyknguyen]

for more hit points duh

[@michaelmueller7405]

When I was at my University in Germany …. 1995 …. Long time ago I know 😊 …. I had a, at that time already retired, Prof. who did sometimes help out as there was a shortage of teachers. He pretty much only talked about his time when he was working on the “waterfall” project (surface to air missile) during WW2. I remember that we all had been fascinated about his stories. It’s not often that you have somebody from that time talking to you in real. As far as I know the American Hermes A 1 was based on the Wasserfall …..

[@williamscheuerman1867]

thanks for this, not only was it a beautiful debunking, but also helped answer a question I put in the comments a while ago.

[@homefront1999]

I like to imagine WW2 went on for another 5-10 Years. What weird and interesting designs and vehicles would we have seen? I would love to have seen a headline like " Germany created the first Anti-Air missile to help stop the Allied bombing campaign, but came in too late in the war to help Germany"

[@pvt.bushmann5903]

Of course, if World War II went on for another ten years we'd probably have worse things to worry about, i.e. all-out nuclear warfare. Aside from the United State's ready nuclear program, Germany was only a year or two behind in progress, and I presume there wouldn't be any ideas of "nuclear deterrence."

[@slyze6933]

@@pvt.bushmann5903 Germany was nowhere close to finishing research from a Nuclear Arms perspective, I’d have given it maybe an early to mid 50s if even that. But they did progress in the Nuclear Energy sector, beginning the process of constructing a small reactor. Overall that doesn’t matter when your country is being bombarded 24/7 and you lack the resources to fund such programmes in the first place.

[@aregulargenericname8794]

​@@pvt.bushmann5903 there were not anywhere near to nuclear bombs, the closest the was, was with their reactor but that wasn't successful

[@KorporalNoobs]

​@@pvt.bushmann5903As was already said: Germany was not going to make nukes. And that was the correct strategic decision, considering the absurd ressource cost for a theoretical weapon. Germany dealt with material shortages from the first years of rearmament, and the conquered zone were never able to solve the problem for more than a few months, and while the Third Reich was at leasted tied with the Soviets in terms of turning what they had into weapons, ever increasing way into 1943 at least, they couldn't have committed these ressources at that time.

[@JGCR59]

For Wasserfall (the smaller SAM derivative of the V-2) a sound proximity fuze was proposed, same as for the Ruhrstahl X-4 air to air missile. Wether that would have worked I have no idea. I guess with the guidance methods at the time a Radar VT fuze was a must, and that was one of the reasons german SAMs didn't see any mass combat use. Edit: Apparently a proximity fuze called "Gerät Kugelblitz" (device "ball lightning") was intended for Rheintochter but I couldn't find any sources online on how that was supposed to work. Some claim radar proximity, others comparative distance from the ground (basically two rangefinders measuring range of target and missile detonating the missile remotely when the distances matched)

[@egoalter1276]

I dont think the nazis ever managed to get doppler radar fusing to work. So it would have had to have been either acoustic, or command detonated.

[@theoneandonlyartyom]

i cant wait until some model company pops up and makes "poopenfartenkannone 38 mounted on maus hull"

[@arandomboot598]

Best part was “napkinwaffe”

[@truemisto]

remote guiding missiles like this in video games is very difficult, and probably even harder irl

[@dave_sic1365]

Depends. Those early missiles were usually guided by the "zieldeckungsverfahren" or target overlaying procedure. The missile would carry a flare and the aiming personnel would move the light dot over the shilouette of the target and hold it there. the missile would be detonated by some kind of proximity Fuze. Germany had an acoustic proximity Fuze and a radar proximity Fuze. Alternatively it could be detonated by impact or command from an experienced crew.

[@dave_sic1365]

@Mauricio Pittavino exactly. The "Kranich" acoustic proximity Fuze consisted of a thin piece of sheet metal that was vibrating. It's resonance frequency was tuned to the b17s engines. Resonating vibrations made it bend so far that an electrical connection was made with its container which fired the initial detonator. I'm unsure if they would have used an acoustic Fuze. Radar fuzes seem to be more likely to me.

[@RexyRonin]

Great video! I never thought the Germans were making early concepts of SAMs!

[@naamadossantossilva4736]

They weren't very good.To have a good AA missile you need miniaturized computers and radio equipment. It is a technology that was 10 years away for nations with much better electronics.

[@ROBERTN-ut2il]

so was everyone else - look up Brakemine

[@ME262MKI]

Just add the hull of a E-100 to tag it as ultra fake

[@wolfehoffmann2697]

War Front: Turning Point was a very fun old alternate history RTS game. I would definitely recommend giving it a try. Can't say I remember much about the story though.

[@tomayto70]

I loved that game! Story was that Hitler was overthrown/assassinated before the game, and an unnammed more successful Fuhrer almost conquered Britain before you overthrow him yourself. Then as Germany and the UK/US are about to make peace, the Soviets attack both and they have to team up to take them down. Hilariously cheesy characters but the Allied/Axis real secret projects used were cool and the original cryo tech they gave the Soviets was nice too. Would have been cool to put in an expansion to fit in the Japanese but that would've probably needed to fit in naval combat...

[@ElectricChairSpeedRunners]

Support for it to get the darn thing working is non existent.

[@wolfehoffmann2697]

@@tomayto70 I do remember that in the German campaign for the game, you actually played out the coup against Hitler in one of the early missions.

[@tomayto70]

@@wolfehoffmann2697 I think that was the successor Fuhrer though. The only reason is I remember in the briefing before the mission Hellman says that the Fuhrer is "even worse than the last one," or something to that effect. I took that as an implication that Hitler had been overthrown before the story starts.

[@jessematthews6861]

War front turning point is a very enjoyable "What if" game and i can't wait for you to play it!

[@vermas4654]

I don't care about the impracticality, it looks awesome. I'll definitely try to build one out of lego

[@jnievele]

The standalone launcher in 1:72 from Modelcollect is actually quite a nice kit if you're a modeller

[@Pratt_]

I will never understand eally the obsession with putting stuff on the Maus /E100 hull, this would be the most wasteful and impractical things ever lmao But this one is literally the goofiest ever, a SAM on an armored chassis is already not the most useful use of ressources and when done kts just because it's on an universal armored tractor and mainly due to the tracks. But using one of those chassis for a SAM is like using a fire hose to fill a shot glass... Great video as always, keep it up and I would be curious to see some of thatold PC game you talk about atthe end ! Regards, from France 🇫🇷

[@joshhanklon]

But but but … my wonderwaffles 🥺🧇

[@Type75Advance]

Big hulls means big guns

[@EdVonPelt]

I think using a Pz 4 hull to move those around would have been useful, even if it lacks the ground target capabilities of a Pz.Sfl. IVc. The Pz4 was getting a little obsolete, so it would have been a useful conversion to get some use out of old/damaged tanks. And the ability to move launchers outside the road network would have been useful once the allies send strike planes after the launch sights.

[@freequest]

Yep completely implausible but damn those dioramas look good.

[@TotallyNotAFox]

To be fair, the US and USSR SAM projects were based on the german "Wasserfall" missile. While we are at it, want to guess who had the first mass producable transport helicopter in service?

[@nemesis7774]

this cone of arc artwork at the end seemed very cute to me

[@fidjeenjanrjsnsfh]

How to make a barely functional hull into a fixed emplacement: shoot rocket exhaust on your engine deck.

[@Elf_rl]

does the missile knows where it is at all times?

[@EmyrDerfel]

Yes, because it knows where it isn't.

[@Soviet20]

I'd like to see Cone's thoughts on the common misconception, that last prototypes of german jets influenced all jet history.

[@joshuahadams]

Gloucester Meteors were starting their introduction to the RAF in July 1944, weren’t they? Intercepting V1s over the Channel before the V2s rolled around. Iirc there was at least one battle over Belgium with Meteor pilots hoping to see some Me 262s scrambled but they never did. They mostly did nighttime and ground attacks into 1945 being careful not to fly too far into occupied territory in case they got shot down and reverse-engineered. They got replaced by Hawker Hunters and Supermarine Swifts as the 40’s rolled into the 50’s and we’re pushed into training and reconnaissance roles replacing the older Spitfires and Mosquitoes.

[@egoalter1276]

The reintochter's radar guidance is not the commonly used radar targeted automatic radio command guidance seen in most cold war era SAM weapons, but a radar beamrider system, which is analogous to radar beam rider systems such as seen in the Metis ATGM.

[@xavierjiang7112]

Likely the model company make both the turret and chassis and one day they noticed "hey the gun can fit in the turret ring" and cobbled it together. They should have heavier self-propelled platforms for such things (kinda like a WWII version of bradley), but perhaps there was never the need.

[@Hello11World]

I watched a video on youtube where someone was reconstructing a german air misslile anti-air , it was more of a steel rod though with a jet powered engine.

[@edfrancis712]

I kinda figured the mouth-breathing wherbs would screech at this, and they didn't disappoint

[@StrakanDocrusReakal]

I feel like someone in Germany at the time would have suggested slapping it on a tank hull.

[@thefez-cat]

There's also the question of _loading_ the damn thing. If it's on a tank chassis moving from place to place, that means there's another vehicle following it around with one or two more missiles for reload, plus a crane to get the missile on to the launch cradle. The Rheintöchter was more than 20 feet tall, 21 inches around, and its launch weight was over 3,000 pounds.

[@jon-paulfilkins7820]

Napkinwaffe... I love it.

[@_cKz_SHADOW]

I have that game War Front Turning Point the Wirbelwind and Rheitochter are both pretty good. The Wirbelwind is like the one used on Company of Heroes opposing fronts on the Luftwaffe doctrine.

[@GarGhuul]

Delicious shreds if truth. My one weakness. Or is that ginger-fried shreds of beef? I forget.

[@moeitani1061]

I used to play Warfront Turning point back in 2007-2008, good game with a good story.

[@scottbaase4042]

Maybe not true german wunder weapons, but my 40k imperial guard army just got new deathstrike models.

[@stephenwarhurst6615]

Makes more sense to place this S.A.M. missile on a Sd.Kfz. 9 half track. Because the Sd.Kfz. can still be useful to do other jobs.

[@youmukonpaku3168]

or just do what everyone else ultimately did with the big SAMs: slap it on a truck or a rail car so it's logistically portable on its own, then leave it emplaced wherever.

[@Albinospenguin]

Remenber me a lot of the french "pluton" featuring an AMX hull on wich is monted a tactical nuclear rocket. Equally goofy and terrifying at the same time

[@Weareone199]

You forgot to mention that is a lot harder to reload and re-arm these missiles

[@redsnowleopard]

Was the missile you mentioned a part of the Wasserfall Project aswell? Also what are your thought on the German X-7 Rotkappchen ATGM? Especially the models with it ma=ounted on a tiger turret or something.

[@MrHws5mp]

No, Wasserfall was a scaled-down A-4 (V2) with storable propellants, launched vertically. You can get a kit of it from Brengun Models.

[@bigblue6917]

There was a simpler missile proposed which was a smaller version of the Me-163 rocket aircraft called the Enzian. In fact it used the same type of rocket motor as the 163. It was wire guided and carried a 500 kilo warhead. The idea was that it would be launched at bomber formations where it would be exploded. The Luftwaffe had dropped smaller bombs from fighters into US bomber formation bringing down a number of aircraft So two of three 500 kilo warheads exploding amongst a formation would have been devastating.

[@ROBERTN-ut2il]

No the Liuftwaffe bombing attempts brought down ZERO bombers - TOTAL failure, justvlike everyone else who tried it

[@johndoe-so2ef]

Looks like that rocket blast would be really healthy when it hit the engine deck.......

[@PzGsephy]

Literally out here pooping on modelers for fun kits.

[@chiusan1528]

>move into position with a slow vehicle >fire it what now this thing would be a logistical nightmare

[@PAcifisti]

With all of these devices probably the most simplest question to check if they're legit is - Does it make sense? To utilize E-100 or Maus hull for open topped missile launcher makes absolutely no sense. Why would you waste that much material and factory space to create a protected hull on unprotected system. The Panther hull could make a bit more sense as it would simplify logistics if it was the smallest hull that could sustain the launch, but it would most certainly not waste E-100 or Maus hulls for something like this.

[@j.kearney484]

It's worth mentioning that America and Britain's rocket and SAM efforts in the 1940s and 1950s were generally as, if not more successful than Germany's, simply because they did not rush them through development in order to meet some crackpot deadline to 'win the war'. America's missile projects in particular did pretty well, such as the Little Joe in 1945 and Lark in 1946, aswell as the British Fairy Stooge in 1946/47.

[@KorporalNoobs]

What a 4,7 to 1 ressource disadvantage does to a motherf_cker.

[@gratefulguy4130]

How convenient that we got a massive boost in all these areas just after the war. We also went from being 5 years to atomic bomb production to right now through magic because we're magical. No other reason.

[@darth_elsa6681]

It seems Secret Weapons over Normandy wasn't entirely off base here....they had it mounted on a half-track

[@crocidile90]

It has been YEARS since I have seen anyone talk about that game. Also the pacific carrier part of the campaign was annoying for my as the wild cats were very mid. The quad AA section was fun for me though.

[@ROBERTN-ut2il]

Did you watch the video? There was no attempt at a mobile mount

[@darth_elsa6681]

@@ROBERTN-ut2il was adding to the ridiculous ideas for a mobile launcher....hence the reason I brought up the game

[@braddl9442]

I mean this looks like something that some countries with some panzer hulls laying about might have used to test missile systems in the late 50s and through the 60s. But then you find out about the radio controlled missile projects. I wonder if there were some scientists notes saying "maybe we can mount them on a panther."

[@MrChainsawAardvark]

So far as I'm aware, these early German SAMs were to be liquid fueled - scaled down V2s essentially. That would present some more problems for mobility. If its actually a V2, then you need liquid oxygen, while if you're going for ME-163 C-Stoff and T-Stoff, those are a bit volatile to transport in a ready weapon, and would dissolve the thanks they are in - so once again require fueling shortly before launch.

[@amperzand9162]

The wasserfall weapon at least was iirc supposed to run on nitric acid as oxidizer, which is much worse about eating tanks than what they fed me163. (163 didn't actually have a particularly bad fuel mix, it just had really awful safety design)

[@MrChainsawAardvark]

@@amperzand9162 I find its helpful to just treat anything labeled as "Hypergolic" as if it hates you and wants to destroy all that you love.

[@amperzand9162]

@@MrChainsawAardvark Yeah that's generally good policy, although there are definitely differences in the degree to which various chemicals desire the downfall of all life.

[@paulosborne6517]

I refer you to a recent book by Steve Zaloga on German rocket systems. In it, he states that the idea of using Rheintochter missiles on Flak 41 crucifiom mounts in combat is pure speculative nonsense. There were initial launch tests done with cruciform mounts, yes, BUT, right from the word 'go' they were never intended for combat, only testing of the missile itself, without added time and expense. Indeed, the R-1 was deemed a no-go during testing and only the R-3P was progressed to further testing and possible production approval. That version was always intended to be launched from a hardened static emplacement - similar to the simplified mock-up you showed in one of the photos in this video. In short, R-1 tested on a crucifix, out of expediency only, missile rejected, R-3P then tested BUT the program then cancelled outright before hardened static launchers designs had been finalized. Any idea of mobile Rheintochter missiles on tanks would also be farcical on the basis of the support vehicles and crews needed to transport, load, fuel, aim, fire, track targets and missiles, as well as defend them on the ground... It'd be like duplicating the V2 program in terms of logistical support, something Germany was in no place to do with dwindling resources.

[@ROBERTN-ut2il]

Totally agree

[@egoalter1276]

Reintochter wasnt Volkhov. It was a mostly self contained system that could reasonably be made mobile, and would have to be if it was in fact utilized. The tests show transportable launch rigs were viable and common sense tells they were necesseary. It is of course known the system wasnt used in combat, but that was never part of the question.

[@seanmatto2258]

You should do the Sturmpanther.

[@tomitiustritus6672]

Warfront Turning Point is home to my all time favourite comic-Nazi quote of all time: "Ah, there it is, London! I wonder how the city will be called in German."

[@gitgood8509]

I am late to the party, but you definitelty should check War Front. There is a lot of very interesting stuff like famous german Panther light tank, or Tiger medium tank. As well as giant flying wing bombers, jetpacks, soviet vodka dealers (actual historical unit btw), and the ability to manually control turrets on the battlefield. I nanaged to run it on my PC on a Windows 10, but i can't go over the details because, well, yar-har-har

[@burningtank160]

I could see these being mounted on Panzer IIIs and IVs, although they would probably be mounted on obsolete models

[@onenote6619]

The rockets were real enough, but the manual guidance system would be iffy, even if they were allowed to work. Remember that radio control was in it's infancy and guiding a rocket to a bomber from the ground would be really difficult at best. An onboard terminal guidance system would be required, but they didn't really exist either (barring Project Pigeon). On top of that, at this stage in the war any German radio signals were being jammed to hell - these would have been no different.

[@IblameBlame]

Notice one of the soldiers wearing his field cap backwards at around 0:57. I've not seen any footage or pictures of somebody wearing something like a baseball cap backwards before the 1960s.

[@tapeesa2866]

They’re Croats

[@IblameBlame]

@@tapeesa2866 Do you mean they are Ustasha fighters? Why do you think so?

[@Axle0Bullitt019]

This “proposed” weapon makes even less sense in the amount of support one would need for these systems as well. One major difference between this wunderweapon and modern mobile AA systems is the fact it only has one missile. While for the Panther it’s a hit of an easier ask but the speed of those E100’s would have really limited the area saturation they could obtain from any given supply point.

[@mondriaa]

I just scratch build a 1/72 Rheintochter launcher for a Panzer 4, if mounted on a tank then use a some what date chassis. All the different chassis are just model companies milking there moulds

[@stormer9952]

Before I even saw the thumbnail, I imagined 4 Fliger Fausts strapped together on top of a Pazner 3 body.

[@EeJee404]

As soon as i saw the tiger and e 100/maus hull i already new this was fake

[@alanwestmoreland6152]

When I first saw "German sam's" the first thing came to mind was the secret weapons of Normandy mission.

[@duncanmcgee13]

Also whyd they have a gun shield lmao

[@Doppler-hh5nt]

Just to add to how immature this tech was, the first fully "mobile" and SAM system was the SA-4 which would only enter IOC in 1967, the Germans would need to make their radar (assuming it had any) and control/support equipment also fully mobile.

[@a_Minion_of_Soros]

Classy choice of music.

[@PotatoeJoe69]

They didn't have SAM's that functioned with any real effect, but I don't think they were that far off either. After all, they had guided bombs and ballistic missiles. They also had massive batteries of 88mm flak guns that were connected via some complex system, and guided via radar to fire at enemy aircraft.

[@danielshin4526]

“Napkin-waffe” glorious term

[@jebise1126]

2:00 i saw videos of this long time ago and it was said (if i remember correctly) detonated in middle of bomber formation. so i assume its manual trigger.

[@samnelson9038]

These would be nice proxies for death strike missiles in 40k.

[@The_Modeling_Underdog]

Well, yes... Most of the artwork belongs to Modelcollect's Fist of War series based on an Alternate Reality. It's Panzer'46 revved up a notch. But, then again. If people can take 40k tanks as perfectly usable, then these should be effin' dandy as well. Cheers.

[@SamuraiAkechi]

5:45 YES War Front deserves more love. And a remaster. However it couldn't compete with C&C Generals

[@YTMMS-hy6mz]

Man they made all this crazy stuff and yet they still put their best tech on the slowest and the most expensive platforms

[@nobodyherepal3292]

One of these is a composition mod for Arma 3.

[@adorimirable]

Idk if you do fake aircraft of not, but the new Indiana Jones trailer had a really cool looking Heinkel 111 thing.

[@barbos1507]

First time I saw this wierd tank in 2007 rts war front: turning point.

[@Diego-zz1df]

I can see a mobile version of these early SAM batteries, but not like these. Maybe a mobile launcher that could be towed by a truck, ditto for whatever other equipment the battery needed, like radar. This would allow the batteries to be repositioned more easily.

[@viperz3r016]

Saw the missile at the hazy center in VA

[@millitaryhistory1482]

I volunteer at the Olympic Flight Museum and we have the prototype air to ship missile they would drop it from a plane and the bombardier would manually guide it if your interested I can take some photos next weekend

[@ROBERTN-ut2il]

Fritz-X or Hs-293?

[@alsanchez5038]

According to my moon calendar the ufo-base below Antarctica will be fully operational after 12 more orbits. You will notice it when the moon get a small black square in the middle-