WTF is wrong with big air? | EP2 - Jason van der Spuy | The Leading Edge Podcast

[@gethighwithmike]

Listen on Spotify: open.spotify.com/episode/2O7ho7ZFZbP702pgjVP3Sh Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-leading-edge-kitesurfing-podcast/id1760129272

[@nathftn]

Before switching to kiteboarding, I've been doing bodyboarding for 20 years and I'm a former federal judge in surfing/bodyboarding. Here is what they say in the official rules in the french federation: The surfer will have to perform controlled radical maneuvers, in the most critical section of the wave with speed, power and flow (fluidity) to maximize his potential points. Innovative and evolving surfing, as well as the variety of the technical repertoire (manoeuvres), will have to be taken into account when rewarding the surfed waves. The surfer who respects these criteria, by displaying on the waves the highest degree of difficulty and commitment, will be rewarded with the highest scores Which mean that I we look at two riders doing a belly spin (I'll take a bodyboarding example because that's what I know the best), we have to look at: engagement (so if you take a big set wave you'll have a better mark than if you pic a wave between the big set), the speed/explosiveness and power (so if you spin fast and smooth with control you'll have a better mark than if you do a slow belly spin sliding on 3 meter without control), the style (how beautiful you look, if you cross the legs you'll have more points than if you keep your legs uncrossed like a frog) and the radicality (if you do the tricks near to the barrel (so close to the curl) you'll have more points than if you do it on the flat part of the wave). Kiteboarding first need to codify the tricks so we can know what's considered a good boogieloop for example. If I should transfer this to rate let's say a backroll kiteloop tornado, I'd say that to perform the trick with a high score, the rider must arrive with max speed at his take off, have an explosive take off taking him as high as possible (so a 22m trick in 35 knots will have more value than a little bit more complex trick done at 12m => engagement), finish the first backroll without going into an over rotation (control), loop must be the wider possible (radicality), tornado must be smooth, body fully extended, legs close and grouped together, board close to the body (style), the tornado must not end in an over rotation, landing must be clean with good speed (so the more splash we see, the lower the score will be). I might be telling some wrong stuff in my critera but I hope you understand the example. This would give the riders a direction to take in their training and make the scoring more accurate because it won't be about feeling, it will be about precise stuff that can be observed. When I saw Jason loose to Edgar (I was there live), I'm french, but I was still like bro wtf this is a big air competition and they are giving more points to an unhooked trick (closer to freestyle than big air). In my Opinion Jason last trick with the tornado was way way way way way better than Edgar unhooked trick. And sorry for the mistakes in my english, hope you can understand me !

[@filippos.4287]

Would be amazing for this discussions to be live and allow people to interact and make questions…

[@gethighwithmike]

Great idea!

[@KeithScott-d7f]

You said it, a Netflix series just like drive to survive, we need to get to know the riders

[@BenjaminLovelady]

1:05:01 I'm honored to have judged for BAKL HR, but I was honestly super disappointed with my own scoring. I watched the livestream afterwards and was just kicking myself for missing things like extra rotations, board flips, etc. Even just in the discussion of the heats with the other judges afterwards when deciding the variety score and whatnot, we'd be saying things like "i can't remember what this guy did for that trick but I remember he was consistently going bigger and it made a big impression." Part of that would be fixed by spending some serious time training to judge, but it's just simply the case that it's harder to notice all the technical details in person and the difference in height comes across much more starkly than in the livestream. Video review just for the judges to finalize scores at the end of the heat would be awesome, but then it kills the ability to tell riders how big a score they need during the heat.

[@Tobi_Bike1]

Judging has to be trained and I don't know if that happens at the GKA, BAKL or any other organization. But as with everything, it's a matter of practice. You can also introduce other tools from stochastics. You can simply delete the best and worst score from a jump. This way, scores that are too good because the judge finds the rider very likeable are not counted. A score that is too bad would also not be taken into account if the judge was not paying attention. There are enough ways and means to make the whole thing better and easier.

[@Ghistav7]

Another thing is media coverage, camera angles and the tools at the judges' disposal. I don't know if judges have the same camera angles as we general public but if that is the case then there is no way you can correctly judge from the beach. Less complex sports despite having professional judges have better camera angles, "challenges", drone footage, etc. to support their decisions.

[@gethighwithmike]

Thanks for judging Ben. It's unfortunate that I didn't take the time to train you. At the start of our big comps, judging was the focus. As time went on and demands for greater output grew, but resources didn't grow proportionally, I spent less time training judges. You've been a part of BAKL at its worst, I'm sorry to say. But we've got some exciting stuff coming soon that'll right the ship 🚀

[@1290rwrw]

Love this format man keep going thx ❤

[@claudiubarbura]

fabulous content, it's difficult to create something that hooks you for 100 minutes these days but you did it Mike and Jason

[@st202295]

Keep pushing Mike. You are asking the right questions. All the best. Janek vs Hadlow and Janek vs Joshua its still drives nuts. They have no idea.

[@Alexomator]

Long Podcast, had to listen to it in two sessions. Problems can only be solved if identified and speaking things out loud is one method to do so. Things described are frigthening to listen to. It would be super awesome to hear people like Nick, Jesse, Kevin or Aaron talk about this stuff. I mean, three of them are already retired, so no worries on their side. Maybe a stupid idea, but why not put them into the Kota judging tower?

[@gethighwithmike]

Great idea to get those guys involved in the conversation and in judging!

[@jankowalski2652]

Great idea with those retired riders as judges!

[@chasethestoke]

Great presentation Mike! Saying what so many of us were thinking. Also, big respect to Jason for keeping his cool! What a wild ride he’s had lately.

[@aladdin-s2p]

Epic episode, I love it guys keep going, thanks for the effort you’re putting in to grow the sport, mad respect for you Mike and Jason

[@jankowalski2652]

I TOTALLY AGREE with what you said about judges in KOTA, that should e revisited, those should be really experienced (in big air) people.

[@clemzo6]

Thanks Mike, the team and Jason !

[@mcnno5351]

Safety during Full power Tarifa last may was not on point at all as well. One heat a girl was yelling for help a couple of minutes after a crash. The safety team was not watching, had no running engine and they were attached to a buoy. It took minutes before they helped her in 45+ knots. If she was unconcious she was dead now… There needs to be a professional safety team and at least 1 jetski in every competition.

[@joshkesan]

Great pods! thanks for the content Mike. For alternative ideas how to run competitions and judge, I'd suggest to check redbull wake duel. It's a one-on-one knockout wakeboarding comp. very interesting concept. riders themselves are calling it best comp of the season. 3 judges, no scores just pure decision who won the face off. riders draw their opponents before comp. plenty of drama, rivalry, story building. let me know if interested, I can find their rules and other details of the comp. it's happening in 313 wake park in lithuania.

[@jessejoseph2082]

Thanks for videos Mike! I think it’s a great idea of you to do a podcast. Adrian’s and Collin’s podcast is awesome but I’m always itching for more! Keep this up !! 🙏🏽

[@gethighwithmike]

Thanks for the encouragement! 🤘

[@clemzo6]

I totally agree that lives competition are too long and not that clear, like the scorring, rules and rivalities. I'm new to the scene and first time I saw a competition live, I've just stopped after 30 minutes. So, I'm going to watch BAKL Battles ! By the way, thanks for the explanation tricks vidéo ;)

[@HookdOnWind]

Mad respect to you Mike🤙🤙🤙 bringing up all the issues, and trying to solve them also. This pod was so interesting that I just couldn't stop listening. Also mad props for bringing up other riders comments for topics here. If only we could get more companies in sponsoring the sport🤞 Cant wait for the BAKL 4 and the Grand Final 🎉🎉🎉

[@jcar12o]

Great work guys, surfacing problems that audience watching via stream could not imagine they happen. Regarding judgement system let me throw an idea, heats could be divided in two phase: - betting phase: each rider would bet two different tricks, this phase would create some mind games between riders as they could bet tricks they know competitors are weak - performance/execution phase: each rider would have to perform tricks they bet as well as the tricks competitors has bet This would make judgement easier, as tricks could be compared "side by side". Even an audience that's not familiar with the sport could provide their opinion as they saw the same trick being executed by all the riders in the heat. Food for thoughts...

[@nathftn]

Also, in surfing, you have to follow a formation to learn how to judge. Then you get a certificate saying that you are allowed to be a judge. Then you start from federal, to national to international. If you want to go higher you have to judge in a given amount of competitions. same If you want to be the "head judge". And I don't know if you have that in kiteboarding, but surfing has a spotter which will be saying "watchout guys, red is coming"

[@evansmith8541]

Dude these are amazing keep making them!!!!

[@nathftn]

There also need to be a scale saying something like 1 loop + 1 backroll = 2 pts 1 loop + 2 backroll = 3 pts 1 loop + 1 frontroll = 2,5 pts (the frontroll is more technical than the backroll imo but this should be discussed) 1 loop + 2 backroll + 1 board off = 5 pts 1 loop + 2 frontroll + 1 board off + 1 tic tac/boardspin/boardflip = 7,5 pts Then you combine this base scale with the engagement, speed/explosiveness, control, style criteras to adjust if it's scoring more or less than the base points set in the scale. This will be adjusted according to the general level and the most complex tricks at the moment. All of this will be told at the rider meeting when the comp starts.

[@gethighwithmike]

Ya we made this :) check v1.heatscoring.com/testscores But honestly the solution we have going forward is much better. Looking forward to revealing it!

[@nathftn]

@@gethighwithmike then we need to know about it !! 😁

[@nathftn]

@@gethighwithmike the scoring system looks great !!

[@Andreas_K_]

Mike I would love an episode on what you think the state of kiteboarding is. Do you think it’s growing/steady/dying. Here in the US it is not growing and it appears winging is on the way up. Cheers mate, great episode

[@gethighwithmike]

Thanks for listening! I hate to give a boring answer, but I don't have access to enough data to comment. Big Air has grown in recent years - that's for sure. It was fascinating to see how popular winging is when I was in Hood River last year!

[@nathftn]

Just finished watching the interview and a few stuff has come to my mind. Would it be possible that we can have live data from the surfrapp about the speed, edging, pop etc a little bit like they do on the onboards in Formula 1 ? For a passionate guy like me who likes details, I'd be pretty interested to see this on the live to understand how the pros perform. Maybe this would help to catch the audience a little bit more. This would also be great so the commentators has things to talk about in between the heats. Maybe you could also do some adverstising and games like asking an answer and everybody is free to answer then the winner can be picked. For a 10h event it would be like 1 question every 3 hours and 3 winners at the end of the day. Then 1 hour is left to pick the winner random. But here comes the problem: how can you get the prize and which prize (prize would have been worth it tho. If it's to win a cap I wouldn't play ahah). Also maybe big air kiteboarding or just kiteboarding in general needs an international federation. The pro's would be part of it and have a right on the direction the game is taking. And this international federation would also write the official texts and everything around (so what a boogieloop must have in to be considered a good boogieloop for example). For people like me who are already too old to be on the pro circuit, it'd still be something pushing me to progress because I'd want to do like the pros and for this, I'll have to refer to the official text. Last things, for Mike, will you start a page named the leading edge ? could be cool to cut the whole interview in many clips. This would help to make the ITW more "viral" imo. But you are the one knowing the data behind your work ;-) so simple suggestion.

[@bronzafox]

Bru, great job! I enjoyed this immensely! All the talking points were great, I agree we need to expose the short comings of the current situation that is competition Big Air. I'd love to come be involved with BAKL battles one day and I'm sure I will get the chance because I know it will become something huge.

[@gethighwithmike]

Thanks for the great feedback! 🤘I top hope you can get involved some day!

[@Ericwalshekite]

Loving the podcasts Mike! Geil would be a great guest to have on I'd say! Would be keen to get one of the girls perspectives on these topics too!

[@ma1k_el]

great insights. im pretty sure your work will have a big impact on the development of the competetive environment as well as on the sport itself. Big thanks for this

[@gethighwithmike]

Thanks for the encouragement 🙏

[@tomgsand172]

Separate events, double loop events and single loop events, it is a different type of kite trick. Thats why there used to be Redbull Kota and redbull megaloop, kota was more trick and style, megaloop was more who could go the highest and loop the lowest

[@wazkiedi]

I like watching massive powered jumps with kite loops

[@esurfrider7687]

Sounds like the gka safety guy took his job a BITE too seriously! 🤣 tho on a more serious note, I was just saying how difficult it is to film a kite event, riders are so far away it’s hard to tell what’s going on as a spectator, I realize it’s hard to fly a drone in those conditions but the better the riders can be captured on film is the key to gaining attention of spectators and improving the ability for judges to see the minutia of a trick even if they don’t know jack about big air.

[@gethighwithmike]

Haha! Great point! Interestingly, if we weren't so obsessed with kiteloops, we could film much more zoomed in and it would be much easier for mainstream viewers to take interest. Funny to think that might be a better path for the discipline.

[@ABESuperKiteDay]

35:01 sounds like someone working for Vaught International would say. 😂 "Sometimes well .. these things just happen... "Wait this has happned before?!" "How many times ! ?"

[@gethighwithmike]

😂😂😂😂

[@nicmantzivis8978]

More please Mike... Double G

[@Gareck]

Getting more sponsors would also work with adding a media day to the competitions where you loads of content for kiteboarding can be made. This content can as well be used in the live streams during times where everyone is just waiting. So much potential just missed.

[@Periclesz]

i wonder what would be Jason's point of view if he wasn't one of the riders who got invited to BAKL Battles . The battle format unfortunately is limited at this point only for the established riders and the up and coming don't have any chance to showcase yet It needs an increased frequency to give an opportunity to all riders in the tour

[@gethighwithmike]

The time for more episodes will come. Once we've figured out how to make one *really good* episode, the plan is to scale up and make many of them efficiently.

[@evansmith8541]

Just have multiple judges judging different aspects of the tricks like gymnastics or maybe they already do this.??

[@filippos.4287]

Not having a live would be a great loss in my opinion. It would take away a lot of emotions. Maybe it could be limited to the final stages of the competition

[@gethighwithmike]

When you watch a sports documentary, do you not feel powerful emotions? Those are non-live and they get me super engaged

[@filippos.4287]

Yes but they are documentaries and not sport events. The cool thing about sport events is to watch them live and cheer for your favorite riders. It’s probably just me but watching the bakl battle felt a bit unnatural because I was aware that everyone in the scene already knew the results. It felt like watching 3 months old news if you understand what I mean… In my opinion in an ideal world live events and pre/post events “documentaries” with higher video quality and behind the scenes content should coexist.

[@filippos.4287]

Btw thanks for taking the time to reply. Love your work. 🤙

[@gethighwithmike]

@@filippos.4287I get your point. Thanks for the feedback. I'm hopeful that improved storytelling + the best action footage is the solution for more entertainment. Trying to crack the code before the end of season 1 of BAKL Battles.

[@gloglebag]

I probably misunderstood, but wasn't the situation with Jamie and Jason similar. Both times the judges initially did not score the tricks correctly only in Jamie's case they let the correction trough and in Jason's case they fucked him over.

[@gethighwithmike]

In Jason's case, they had incorrectly categorized one of his tricks. It was a clear, objective mistake when implementing their own rules. In Jamie's case, they went back and altered the score, not the categorization.

[@gloglebag]

@@gethighwithmike Thanks mike

[@alanditch2408]

great insight to the industry , that we *Kooks don't see or hear of !!!

[@evolution2ironman283]

Why not ask the riders to submit the tricks they are going to do before the heats and that way the judges would know what they are expecting and can have a baseline score for a particular trick …. Then depending on execution you get the maximum or minimum for the trick…..perhaps then the final trick could be a new trick for innovation… I think this is similar to how gymnastics works

[@evolution2ironman283]

Also this way the spectators would know who is doing what and tricks are the most extreme….. I believe in gymnastics they also have a difficultyrating per Trick which could be agreed by the fleet before the event

What is the name at 15:36?

[@gethighwithmike]

Alessa and Lana

[@brockleavins8868]

Love listening to the overall kite talk and rider's stories, but the negativity can take a hike. I like to focus on building up the sport, not tearing it down.

[@gethighwithmike]

Quite literally everyone is upset about the state of things, but without honest conversations, no one would even know that nor see the need to do anything about it.

[@brockleavins8868]

@gethighwithmike fair comment. I did like hearing the list of potential fix options that you both spoke about, but the trashing of the judges ( I don't know any of them) seems a little petty. I'm sure if the riders aren't getting paid much, then the judges are probably paid much less, if at all. There's probably not much incentive to being a judge and having so many people trash your efforts when nobody can agree on how the actual judgments should be scored during the events. I would imagine that it's probably fairly frustrating for them also.

[@gethighwithmike]

I see your point. But there are heaps of skilled riders in our community who, with training, would be far better judges. It's bizarre that KOTA has the panel it has. Actually, it's unacceptable. Poor judging destroys the competitive spirit and undermines the hard work that athletes put in. BTW, interesting: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p3OsmHl6jJKnm9Esi=tHV0tR6V6L_lz4E-

[@brockleavins8868]

​@gethighwithmike that's interesting. I listened to the whole episode but I didn't hear that point, unless I missed it. Why do you think this barrier is being put up to not grow these skilled riders into judges? Is it an "Ol' boys club" attitude from the league/event organizers? As more of a fan of the sport, is there anything that I/we can do to enable this change?

[@RADkiteboarding]

Shout out to Joe Spano!!!

[@gethighwithmike]

Hero!!!! 🔥

[@kitegoofy]

Good stuff.... never bring the two of us together... there are not enough swear words for the titel 😉

[@gethighwithmike]

😂😂😂

[@eightytwo8282]

Interesting conversation - but why not address it with competition? Where is BAKL these days to offer a compelling alternative to the GKA?

[@gethighwithmike]

Jason raised some eye-opening points for us to consider. Thanks to this conversation, and many hours exploring new ideas with other kiters, I think we've got solid solutions. I look forward to building them. I have high hopes!

[@Tobi_Bike1]

That's exactly my sense of humor. The founder and CEO of Big Air Kite League (BAKL) is publicly badmouthing other organizations with someone who has had very bad luck in judging twice. I can understand Jason's displeasure and also that not everything always runs smoothly there. I was even on the side of both of you until you suddenly pointed out that BAKL is the better platform. Your video went directly in a negative direction and makes you anything but likeable. Before that, it at least seemed as if you were presenting objective reporting. And hey, a judge doesn't have to be a pro, he doesn't have to be a world-class master of the sport. He has to have a holistic knowledge of the sport and the current skill level of the pros and their tricks in order to be able to judge.

[@gethighwithmike]

This same conversation is happening over and over again with almost all the riders. But not all riders are prepared to speak publically about these issues. Why? Because throwing shade is discouraged. It's not productive to pretend like everything is okay and simply move on. That's been happening for years and nothing good has come of it. I gather that you'd prefer if independent media spoke about these issues, rather than an obviously biased person such as myself. I get that. In an ideal world, that would be happen. But the fact is that this sport is small and there is no independent media, yet. Colin and Adrian are the closest thing we have, and I love them. But they'd make enemies if they frequently spoke about all of these issues. So they only speak up as much as they can.

[@Tobi_Bike1]

@@gethighwithmike You're absolutely right and you're right on many points. However, leave it at that and don't start with your own product and promote BAKL in the same video. What does that have to do with objectivity if you, as founder and CEO, denigrate other institutions and promote the non plus ultra yourself? That's the only thing I take issue with in your video and the context is completely out of place. And BTW. Collin and Adrian are not really independent either :D Collin in particular has made a lot of enemies in recent years through his actions.

[@NicMantzivis]

Yeah this is not bad mouthing this is exposing abuse and if you don't like it you're benefiting!

[@alessiowalter2075]

Ahah man respect for trying but you're clearly throwing shit on the GKA in order to increase your audience at the BAKL battles..

[@Alexomator]

hola? hola? hola? hola? hola? hola? hola? hola? hola? hola? hola? hola?

[@gethighwithmike]

@alexomator 😂😂😂

[@thepearlofthenorth]

And the last bakl battles: let the riders decide witch category they would ad... Short line looping Jason was clearly the best prepared..

[@gethighwithmike]

@@thepearlofthenorth I don't understand? Luca won that. And it didn't determine who won the battle- only the Nikes...

[@gethighwithmike]

@@thepearlofthenorthor do you mean the upcoming final battle?