Getting more divisive in the comments

[@JimDangle-z5t]

Bro you absolutely give out little golden nuggets of wisdom. When you touched on just hitting the 2 or 3 big issues that a shooter has and not getting lost in the sauce of bringing up everything. That is so relevant for me teaching rookie cops shooting fundamentals at my department. Such good info.

[@foobzaz]

I love “the real house wives of special operations” almost as much as “the real housewives of shooting instructors”. You and others calling out bs about shooting and training has been needed for a long time so thank you for the public honesty and the chaos that follows.

[@kojoe6984]

💯

[@hungerballistics24]

Like chris costa steve fisher and his gf TW LOL

[@mikethrehane8231]

I own a car but I am not part of the ,"car community". Ownership does not equal membership in a community.

[@Zap_R0sdower]

Literally came here to make this exact comparison haha.

[@carlb86]

Big up the eating community massive.

[@michaelatkin9649]

Pranka will say youre an enthusiast because hes a race car driver and youre fuckin idiot larpers and shouldn't carry.

[@carrolladams3193]

Many firearm instructors, particularly those who are prominent on social media, have created an identity to sell their product. After a while their self worth becomes intertwined with BS they have based their identity on. They often become defensive when any of their products are challenged. This phenomenon occurs because challenging the product feels like a personal attack on their identity or competence.

[@SEAKPhotog]

"Attacking paradigms is good and important." Amen to that!

[@michamclain6130]

Challenging paradigms, beliefs, and status quo is great. Attacking and belittling people isn’t. Ben does the latter.

[@SEAKPhotog]

@@michamclain6130 Does he?

[@michamclain6130]

@@SEAKPhotog yes. Constantly.

[@SEAKPhotog]

@michamclain6130 Good thing you're not forced to watch/follow him then, I guess.

[@sunvalleyorganics]

One of the major things about Haley that trips me out/bugs the shit out of me is he preaches all these "science based" techniques for hours and hours at a time, which is such a weird way to teach for someone who's apparently so tuned in to human physiology. You'd think someone like that would know that the basic learning retention/attention span of an average joe is in fact very very short lived. So why would he have hours of classroom talks knowing the vast majority of folks are not retaining it? Makes zero sense. Example; Avg learning retention studies show within 1hr, 50% of new info is forgotten and within 24hrs 70% is forgotten.. etc.. & when you dig into attention spans, it gets much much worse. 😂

[@CC-ii9hg]

Ben, Your videos are great, don't change a thing. Thank you!

[@ProjectD13X]

Hey Ben, have you ever thought about attacking your own rifle training paradigm by putting it through the fire of competition? 2024 PCSL 2 gun nationals still has a good number of slots just FYI

[@ericscott6427]

Speaking of tearing down . I bought your books and watched some class dumps . I had to unlearn what I thought I knew and embrace there is a better , more efficient way . Thanks for all the content

[@tonka1004]

The funny thing about the Haley comment, did he work with the kinesiologists before he was allowed to carry? Before he was given a rifle in the military? The way he says the comment you would think all of this discovery was done prior to him starting up his training group but he talks about how his group is doing the research. So was everyone prior to their research too stupid to be allowed to handle a gun? Why should he have been allowed to handle a gun? What about the current military? How can he think that anyone in the armed services should be allowed to handle a gun? They aren’t being taught what his research says.

[@MattyB7]

I dont think he meant it 100% bro

[@tonka1004]

⁠@@MattyB7 So did you ask him what he meant? If so, what did he tell you that he meant by the comment? The comment, to me, seemed pretty blunt. I didn’t see any room for interpretation based on what he said and how he said it. To me it seems that he actually believes that.

[@WishonPGA]

After teaching golf for 40 years, I've learned to be very spare in how much I say. I challenge myself to get the most accomplished with the fewest words. A lot of talk IS a tell on a teacher's insecurity. That said, the silence can be deafening to a student and that is part of the training as well.

[@jediknight1294]

Concepts can be an absolute nightmare to get across, some need a handful of words some need thousands to be able to understand the technique. Learning style differences are a thing. Some people demonstrate it and they'll do it some people need to know the mechanics in depth. The important thing is pitch g training to the learning style of your audience AND making sure you aren't teaching utter bollocks.

[@WishonPGA]

@@jediknight1294 I believe that using as few words as possible and stressing the silence between is very powerful. The silence is meant as a message to the student to reflect on what they’re doing and why they’ve been asked to do it. Those who want more words, don’t want to be held accountable for participating and investing in their improvement. They feel it’s the instructor’s responsibility to make them better. The student should be an equal partner in the process, at least. Asking questions and reflecting on process is a sure sign that a student is participating. In golf, the student should almost concoct their own drills. Their swing is a collection of feels and images, not rote information. In shooting the drills are very effective and translate well into improvement and application in matches. A student should have a clear idea of their strengths and weaknesses and absorb the meaning and content of the drills that address the weaknesses. IMHO. I’ve been watching these videos and have improved markedly. As in golf, most high profile ‘instructors’ are actually in marketing, not teaching. BS is an actual instructor and is damn good at it.

[@Mrgunsngear]

🍿

[@x03ronex]

Keep doing you Ben, always informative and entertaining!

[@December428]

Over-lecturing by instructors is impulsive and too common. They're overcome by the need for the student to get it and can't bring themselves to shut up long enough for the student to get some reps in and digest the content. It's simply poor self-control, as soon as any sub-optimal execution is detected the student is stopped and lectured for three minutes at the expense of the student actually implementing corrective action. It's two different things between spewing to a class everything you know about a subject in one big block and having the class actually integrate the knowledge. One satisfies the instructor, the other is slower but part of the nature of learning.

[@DaveJackalope]

Ben. That shirt is kickass.

[@thedoctorgreg]

Agreed on the spec ops comment. I could care less on a trainer's background. I care if they can shoot and deliver that knowledge to others.

[@nbonner75]

I love Travis Haley but he could make catching a baseball seem complicated

[@mousemx1534]

Damn, that Labatt Blue t-shirt rocks! 🤘

[@perraultd]

Respect and courtesy are confused all the time. Respect is earned. There is zero reason to respect bullshit. As a scientist, Haley should welcome attacks on his hypotheses. If his ideas stand up to all scrutiny, then the naysayers will be proven wrong. But the scientific method demands review and criticism.

[@Joe-zo6mw]

One of the highlights of this whole thing that entertains me is watching a non-factor like Greg Wong hop in the comments and defend Travis Haley between IG and your KZbin video. If only we were so lucky to have such a turbo shill take a stand for us.

[@madisonberg627]

In bed with Ben: a 30 minute evening special video. Listen to Ben’s voice to soothe you right before sleepy time

[@shawnpatten6515]

24:20 excellent point. We’re all grown ups here.

[@trippskits2503]

Great discussion and insights

[@forCountryClothing]

Thank you for responding to my comment about "the community". Maybe I have idealized who I imagine "the community" to be, I kind of thought we were all drawn to guns and we believe in some of the same core principals. It's a balance between a fun hobby or sport that happens to have a strong political element by its nature. When I think of the community, I'm not thinking of someone who happens to own a gun, I'm thinking of people who train and take it seriously.With how crazy the world is, I guess I was hoping the guys who are watching what I'm watching are the same guys who will take a stand if things go off the rails. Maybe I've been naive. SIDE NOTE: You also mentioned the people crying when you talk about expensive gear, they're insufferable.

[@jediknight1294]

There are plenty of people in the shooting sports community who don't give a shit about the guns, it's just their set of golf clubs. The political lobbying side... One huge problem is the shooting sports need to be a lobbying force but it can't get sucked into politics outside of lobbying for firearms access and shooters rights.

[@Fryheart]

"people should know better" is literally victim blaming. Is it right to get scammed if you're a novice then? What about any other field of life, should you get shit services or products on a field you're not an expert in, maybe even straight up robbed? No we should call them out in public, it's the right thing to do, it's a public service

[@tedy5676]

sam hyde has the best opinion on travis haley.

[@sebastianborberg]

Lmao has Sam Hyde talked about Haley?

[@tedy5676]

@@sebastianborberg bruh

[@undefinedhuman7404]

@@sebastianborbergsam did a video recently talking about cringe guntubers

[@CharlesButler-kj2pd]

I guess I don't get the fake suppressor for training... the full up suppressor is relatively ballpark same price (case of ammo equivalent) and won't cause the noise issue. Train with the can if you want to train with a can.

[@jsirius94]

It’s much easier for someone who travels a lot to carry a training suppressor. Don’t have to worry about weird state laws that are hard to keep up with as you go to different ranges on the road

[@carlb86]

Consider the level of suppressor wear. If you're shooting 20k rounds minimum per year, then why not avoid suppressor rebuilds?

[@rodiculous9464]

I respect you taking the time to respond and apologize if my comment came across shitty. I used to be one of the people who idolizes special forces but then you look at big picture and people they trained like the ANA being the most recent example lost to the taliban and now the taliban is stronger than ever. On top of that there was the whole kyle lamb/travis haley fiasco so you don't even know if the guy training you is who he says he is and did what he says he did. Plus he had a high profile ND incident that he tried to scrape from the internet and then backpedaled and said he did jt on purpose to demonstrate something. Now i am super wary of anyone trying to market their training on the basis of being some badass special forces guy. How do you know what they're training you is real, and how do you know how many guys who died from bad training, because they're not around to leave a bad review anymore. As a civilian i have no way of testing what they're training me, it might all be snake oil. The story of war vets selling tall tales is one as old as time itself. As far as the nature of violence, i am a big fan of varg freeborn. His book seemed logical to me and built on some of my personal experiences on social dynamics and how people both initiate and handle violence. Edit: i brought up the ukraine war because there are numerous example of Ukrainians saying exactly that, the training they received from the west was less than useless, it was actually getting people killed. You can follow Willy OAM if you're interested, many other sources like him as well.

[@graywind4326]

When it comes to war The best training is adapt, improvise and overcome. What works in one war sucks in the next.

[@MrJlpzjr]

Do you teach intructor development classes?

[@jones.i.r]

Special forces training is relevant to “operators”. But to the average citizen, not so much.

[@law1831]

Nice labatt blue shirt, hoser 😂😂😂

[@danielh5397]

First of all, Ben Stoeger has really nice hair. Secondly, I think the gun community being myopically obsessed with gun laws and that being a major uniting factor in the gun "community" makes sense and is overall a good thing. I get that your solution is to just live in a state where you can exercise your 2A rights more freely. But... how long do you think that will last? If you take a step back at the overall trend of US gun laws, it's really only going one direction. There's never any "progress" being made, just holding off the slow inevitable. 2A rights being a political issue and a somewhat inherent source that unites a "gun community" is kind of important in my view. That said, there are some fucking psychos in this "community" lmao but IRL everyone I met has been mostly cool and reasonable.

[@Sultan-cf5wf]

Still carrying water for Pranka, champ?

[@Bucky69]

I love these videos, very interesting and entertaining.

[@neptunestrident4364]

Beats the hell outa worrying about the economy 😬

[@ShootingZen]

So the expert who puts out entire classes for free on you tube should be more polite to instructors who keep their "secrets" behind paywallls?? "Different people have different values."

[@jones.i.r]

“There is no secret ingredient” -Kung Fu Panda

[@E039563]

Ben cares about instructor zero's personality as much as he cares about haircuts

[@jaydubs6354]

lol isn’t that Spartan 117 dude Greg Wong? Aka the airsoft nerd who got arrested during the 2020 blm protests in LA. Why did he get arrested you may ask? He showed up in full kit and nods and tried to link up with some of his buddies in the national guard 😂. Now he just simps for all things Travis haley and pretty sure he even works for Haley strategic now although not sure what he does. I mostly just see him cosplaying with various period correct camo and gear load outs lol.

[@hoplite015]

Why mention all of that? Shit is old news. 😂

[@jaydubs6354]

@@hoplite015 because he has a clear bias and a possible sexual attraction for his employer Travis Haley 😂

[@hoplite015]

@@jaydubs6354 him being bias to his employer is clear, yeah for sure no doubt, we all see it. What I'm getting at is the discussion at hand is pretty utilitarian in structure, which leaves little room for your remark. If you want to get your rocks off on that shit, just go back to the live they did when Ben had to clarify that being a doctor could be an STD in Travis' case 😂

[@LambeauLeapn]

Hey Ben, do you still shoot competitions, or do you not have any time to compete because of your training schedule?

[@davidli3582]

Bring back the Assailant Arms Hi Point!

[@aleks2194]

i still wonder what does occular scientists are doing, anybody that has taken a clss with Haley here? did they do an optometrist examination on the range? and what IS an occular scientist anyway?

[@jediknight1294]

The spec ops aren't relevant thing. I mean it's partially true but also not. You can learn a lot about the importance of aggressive action, decision making and speed, being comfortable taking a shot without perfect sights from guys who did High Intensity Short Duration combat ops. Yeah it's not relevant to near peer warfare, yeah it's not 100% relevant to single person house clearing but it is all useful. The flippant dismissal of guy with ak really shows they aren't aware of what was happening in afgan as well, it wasn't just guys in flip-flops, nods, armour, coms, jammer were all present and there. As for the thing on complicated language and training... The engineering principle I think applies. Something isn't complete when you can't add anything, it's complete when nothing can be taken away. There's also a thing about learning styles, you have to pitch classes to the learning style of the audience and make sure they grasp what you are putting down. Some people need a lecture and the theory, some need just a physical demonstration, some people need a mix of both and an effective instructor will pitch to the room. The community is a thing where... Single issues have to be the thing, you can't alienate people by expecting people to support causes unrelated to the firearms laws or we never get to keep anything.

[@michaelatkin9649]

I love divisive talk. Just not the kind where theres a massive blind spot like pranka and guys that conceal carry or doesn't have time or money to be a super operator.

[@cheezychungus967]

LABATT! Best beer!

[@benjacobs6531]

I also just focus on my shioting hobby....dont care what others say or do....

[@jonathanstringer4313]

You do virtual training? Can you talk more about that

[@carlb86]

PSTG

[@partyboy3d]

Shiet, if i had hair like that i think i’d be a F’ing rockstar (or Prn ⭐️)!!😂

[@kaioken1110]

Is Travis haley just the Jeff Cavalier of shooting ?

[@jinks6410]

Is it false advertising you are agaisnt then? Example, you sign up for a shooting course and you only 200 rds vs you signed up for tactical AND shooting, or fundamentals AND shooting. Would you be alright with other dude's classes if they marketed their courses as only partly shooting?

[@GIJose]

Welcome to the party (KZbin) pal! Just give every comment a heart response. I didn’t last long on here.

[@samr4584]

It wouldnt be logical with how busy you are but it would be the ultimate troll move to go take a class from Haley and make a video explaining your experiences. Vice versa inviting him to take a class with you lol

[@notyou2935]

Other than my comment about why posted the clip, my comments were meant to be just about things in general, not you specifically. I did a poor job of explaining that.

[@kdworak4754]

Wtf is it gonna take to get my comment read. Sheeesh

[@dannyd1213]

Ben, those guns are called "sock drawer guns" they have been around forever just setting with the socks.

[@JofoTubin]

Comments turning to doodie

[@AJohnSmith]

Everyone sucks.

[@felixdewinter3484]

“Everyone’s on steroids” - Nate Diaz

[@jaholland42]

I know we have moved on from this and are onto the Stacc videos. But I do want to highlight that this "thou shalt be nice" mindset is occuring in every discourse. But specfically enhanced in the gun groups and then notably in the Church. I don't agree with you and LB on everything, or Joel. But I do agree on the path, or as my kind says "the way". Your dissenting voice (like Doug Wilson in the church) is needed as the desert needs water.

[@roflchopter11]

I forgot about the surefire faux suppressor, but you brought it up again. People don't see the utility. If you have a can, train with the can. If you don't have a can, why do you need to train with a can? Plus, the pricing is objectively silly. I have yet to hear an argument as to what benefit it has aside from training while you wait for your first can, shooting simunitions, or training in jurisdictions where suppressors are illegal.

[@BenStoeger187]

The “can” is on the gun without any of the negative consequences of the can being on the gun. Makes all the sense to me apparently your experience training with suppressors is a lot different.

[@rodiculous9464]

I'm guessing Ben needs to fly around the country a lot and so flying with an NFA item is a massive pain in the ass. It's a niche product for a niche set of people.

[@jediknight1294]

Means you can take a gun to a match and train with it, iv never shot a can at a comp and had it reliably pick up on the timer. Shoot houses with frangible rounds as well. Iv had some huge issues with frangible rounds in cans (and in some cases the manufacturer won't warranty a can if a frangible causes baffle strikes.) Taking cans out of state or international is a fucking nightmare. It's just a huge hassle and if I can throw something on my gun that is the same weight, is the same balance and will survive me putting thousands of rounds through it is fucking awesome. It's also nice to not have to dick about taking a can off a comp gun and installing it on the dry firetraining setup. Something as small as a quarter ounce difference in the mount (because I cheaped out and got a knock off) between the dry fire setup and the comp/training setup is noticeable when I'm going from one to the other. Thats more relevant in those places where cans are hard to get or owning multiple cans of the same calibre isn't easy. Thats all stuff where this thing has a legitimate use.

[@UncleDanBand64]

👍

[@kristian762]

I mean, the real take away for me from all this is still that I'm extremely surprised that a former Marine (Haley) can even pronounce Kinesiology and physiology, let alone know what they are! But hey, much love to all the crayon eaters out there.

[@Spunkyy556]

KZbin and Twitter comments are a brain cancer fr

[@zen-Tii]

More like a brain fart.

[@coltonowens2742]

I personally think Reddit is generally the worst, but KZbin has its moments for sure.

[@TDub777]

The comment section is cancer on every platform these days.